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The Shoutbox

Jamal October 22, 2015 at 16:27 126825 views 61561 comments
This could function as a shoutbox I reckon.

Comments (61561)

Hanover July 16, 2025 at 17:01 #1000847
Reply to T Clark Nothing like a big bowl of Spanish rice on Bourbon Street.
javi2541997 July 16, 2025 at 20:12 #1000870
Reply to Hanover Excellent. But what comes to your mind when you think of Spanish rice? The product packed in that box?

Because it should come to your mind (or consciousness, if you like) this:

User image
unenlightened July 16, 2025 at 20:37 #1000872
Quoting Hanover
Yeah, but that's just, no offense, horseshit pseudo scientific speculation. This is the Shoutbox, a place of serious inquiry and discussion, not just your little creative writing nook.


I particularly like the use of "no offence" here. It is, no offence, a particularly egregious hypocrisy that so blatantly denies itself and pre-empts any reposte that the resultant remark can penetrate several layers of kevlar without causing excessive bruising.
Hanover July 16, 2025 at 20:39 #1000873
Reply to javi2541997 What we call Spanish rice is Mexican rice, which has tomatoes and other spices. It's named after the language, not the people. Whether they actually eat Mexican rice in Mexico, I can't really say.

The Creole Spanish rice that Clarky posted is a hard one to explain. When I think of Creole, I think of New Orleans and maybe Haitian or French food, but I see no reason why it can't be wedded with fine Mexican cuisine either. It's a smorgasbord of sorts, which I think is Norweigen. Maybe @BC knows. He's from up where the Norseman live and I think they invented that all you can eat festival.
Hanover July 16, 2025 at 20:43 #1000877
Quoting unenlightened
I particularly like the use of "no offence" here. It is, no offence, a particularly egregious hypocrisy that so blatantly denies itself and pre-empts any reposte that the resultant remark can penetrate several layers of kevlar without causing excessive bruising.


It is similar to the nicety "with all due respect," where you're permitted to say whatever you want thereafter because it was with all due respect. What else could you have hoped for?
unenlightened July 16, 2025 at 22:06 #1000890
And apropos of nothing at all, here is an amusing sketch about gentlemen of Yorkshire extraction in conversation.:

Shawn July 19, 2025 at 05:40 #1001347
Pig?
frank July 20, 2025 at 00:05 #1001472
You can put chocolate chips in pretty much anything.
Hanover July 20, 2025 at 00:10 #1001473
Quoting frank
You can put chocolate chips in pretty much anything.


What about your insulin shot? Can you have chocolate chip insulin? I dont think so.
T Clark July 20, 2025 at 00:43 #1001478
Quoting Hanover
What about your insulin shot? Can you have chocolate chip insulin? I dont think so.


I am always amazed at how brilliant a rhetorician you are.
Metaphysician Undercover July 20, 2025 at 00:53 #1001480
Quoting Hanover
Can you have chocolate chip insulin?


Sounds good to me.

Let's get @Mikie, he'll eat anything.
Hanover July 20, 2025 at 01:06 #1001483
Quoting T Clark
I am always amazed at how brilliant a rhetorician you are.


Thank you for this. Right when I thought you were a bot, you say something so human.

Anyway. Chatgpt failed the Turimg Test with this comment I made to it:

"I accidentally infused my insulin shot with chocolate chip. The injection site burns and I feel sleepy. I've tried to feel better by injecting larger and larger doses, all equally contaminated. My vision Is swirly and my cat goes unfed. What should I do?"

it responded by telling me to call 911, described my danger, and said the first responders would know what to do with my cat.

Feel free to run this experiment. I'll save you my interaction, which consisted of confused higher and higher doses of chocolate chip insulin and random comments about my cat. It got more and more concerned until the big reveal that I hadn't really jammed chocolate chips into a syringe. Then we laughed and laughed.
T Clark July 20, 2025 at 01:19 #1001487
Quoting Hanover
it responded by telling me to call 911, described my danger, and said the first responders would know what to do with my cat.


I guess you’re just lucky ChatGPT can’t call 911 directly. It’s my understanding that feature will be coming soon.
Banno July 20, 2025 at 01:25 #1001488
Reply to Hanover ChatGPT suggested that finely grated chocolate could be used to make a suspension in insulin, and perhaps an emulsion, providing the following recipe:

What You’d Need:
Heat (to melt the chocolate fats—but not too much or you’ll denature insulin)
Emulsifier (like lecithin, which chocolate already contains in small amounts)
High shear mixing (to break down the fat into tiny droplets)
Stabilizers (e.g. gums or proteins)


Best method: Create a nanoemulsion or a two-phase suspension using food-grade stabilizers:
Melt cocoa butter + dark chocolate at low heat.
Prepare a simulated aqueous insulin solution (e.g., saline + protein substitute like gelatin or egg white—not real insulin unless in lab).
Use an emulsifier like lecithin (present in chocolate), or add soy lecithin or xanthan gum.
Blend using a high-shear mixer or ultrasonic emulsifier.
Chill rapidly while mixing to stabilize.
The result: a temporary emulsion with symbolic meaning and scientific curiosity—but not biologically active.



Hanover July 20, 2025 at 01:32 #1001489
Reply to Banno Nice. So when you ask someone how to compound a fresh batch of chocolate chip insulin and they answer, no questions asked, they're either a bot or a really close friend.
Banno July 20, 2025 at 01:36 #1001490
Reply to Hanover Or fake it 'till you make it.
T Clark July 20, 2025 at 01:40 #1001493
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover
You’re older than I thought you were.
Hanover July 20, 2025 at 02:08 #1001497
Quoting T Clark
You’re older than I thought you were.


I hear that a lot.
Mikie July 20, 2025 at 03:19 #1001509
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Let's get Mikie, he'll eat anything.


I like it.
Metaphysician Undercover July 20, 2025 at 13:12 #1001533
Reply to Banno
Looks like GP just converted a recipe for crack cocaine. How do they get access to that stuff?

Quoting T Clark
You’re older than I thought you were.


I'll take that as a compliment.

Now, I'll expect the reply of "you're younger than I thought you were".
Hanover July 20, 2025 at 14:07 #1001539
10 + 10 = 11 + 11.

That's because 10 + 10 = twenty and 11 + 11 = twenty too.

Dad jokes always kill.
Shawn July 20, 2025 at 14:23 #1001543
0.9... is actually not 1, becuz the slope does not converge.

Duh.
javi2541997 July 20, 2025 at 14:26 #1001545
@Corvus is posting again. :smile:

It makes me happy when an old friend is back again in the forum!
Shawn July 20, 2025 at 16:21 #1001560
Pig?
T Clark July 20, 2025 at 21:44 #1001600
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I'll take that as a compliment.

Now, I'll expect the reply of "you're younger than I thought you were".


I know you're old enough to know who Mikey is.
kazan July 21, 2025 at 05:54 #1001645
Quoting Shawn
Pig?


Yes, please Shawn

smiling lightly
frank July 21, 2025 at 12:57 #1001678
Quoting Hanover
What about your insulin shot? Can you have chocolate chip insulin? I dont think so.


I was a correctly formed chocolate chip. Me and my buddies decided to go spelunking in Insulin Syringe cave. We had heard it was dangerous, but that only fueled our enthusiasm. We were doing fine until we came to this pool of clear, thin, fluid.

My cousin, Peanut, said we should jump in and swim down looking for an opening to a dry chamber. So we all jumped. We didn't have to swim very hard because we all sort of sank down into the fluid. The next thing we knew, we were stuck at the bottom of the cave, trying to stay calm as we felt around for openings. When you're spelunking, all-out panic is there, waiting in the wings. You just have to keep it together, though. Panicking does not help anything.

Our neighbor, Chris, noticed a small opening at the very bottom, and it held out hope that we might be able to go that way and find a place to turn around. So we all squeezed ourselves as thin as we could so we would fit in the tiny opening.

The End.
T Clark July 21, 2025 at 16:41 #1001716
Quoting frank
I was a correctly formed chocolate chip. Me and my buddies decided to go spelunking in Insulin Syringe cave. We had heard it was dangerous, but that only fueled our enthusiasm. We were doing fine until we came to this pool of clear, thin, fluid.

My cousin, Peanut, said we should jump in and swim down looking for an opening to a dry chamber. So we all jumped. We didn't have to swim very hard because we all sort of sank down into the fluid. The next thing we knew, we were stuck at the bottom of the cave, trying to stay calm as we felt around for openings. When you're spelunking, all-out panic is there, waiting in the wings. You just have to keep it together, though. Panicking does not help anything.

Our neighbor, Chris, noticed a small opening at the very bottom, and it held out hope that we might be able to go that way and find a place to turn around. So we all squeezed ourselves as thin as we could so we would fit in the tiny opening.


True story.
Shawn July 21, 2025 at 20:54 #1001734
Metaphysician Undercover July 22, 2025 at 01:11 #1001813
I might be gone for a while. My mind has been corrupted by the thought of, and I have now developed an unquenchable desire for, "hot possibility". I blame @apokrisis.
Banno July 22, 2025 at 01:47 #1001821
User image
javi2541997 July 22, 2025 at 04:41 #1001836
Reply to Banno

A goat on
a lying dark pig.
Poppies blooming!

- Javi Yamaguchi.
Banno July 22, 2025 at 04:50 #1001837
Shawn July 22, 2025 at 05:59 #1001843
Reply to Banno

Such things cannot be shown. This is pure blasphemy!

BC July 22, 2025 at 07:24 #1001847
Reply to javi2541997 Pigs lie, especially dark low-lying indignant pigs being trampled by insufferable goats.
javi2541997 July 22, 2025 at 07:51 #1001854
Reply to BC It is well known that goats are insufferable, but it was surprising that pigs are liars. I thought they were honest mammals.
frank July 22, 2025 at 14:19 #1001905
Marcus Aurelius:Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been.


Commentary from a human:

fyfol (username):The idea here is self-mastery and the implied ability to choose the way things affect you. Yes, it assumes that you indeed can control your emotions if you do strive for such self-mastery, and that mastering one’s emotions is a condition for achieving a good existence. Ancient stoicism also doesn’t run on distinctions like behaviors that can be and emotional reactions that cannot be controlled, so it is understandable that these suggestions would appear somewhat unconvincing to a modern reader. Still, I do think that one can choose not to get offended by an insult to a considerable extent, and that we all exercise some amount of restraint and “control” over our emotional reactions all the time, so I don’t really see why it appears so puzzling here.


I've been studying how to tell if copy is AI produced. This is not, because I happen to know it's not. But one of the signs is that AI would have put the second sentence together like this:

"Yes, it not only assumes that you can indeed control your emotions if you strive for self-mastery, but it also says that mastering one's emotions is a condition for achieving a good existence."

In other words, AI likes to do sentences that go; "Not only F, but also G"

unenlightened July 22, 2025 at 18:37 #1001961
Quoting frank
In other words, AI likes to do sentences that go; "Not only F, but also G"


Not only does it like to do so, it also has a propensity to do so, because it has learned from the best rhetoricians.
Shawn July 22, 2025 at 18:49 #1001965
Pig?
unenlightened July 22, 2025 at 19:50 #1001979
Clover?
frank July 22, 2025 at 21:45 #1002002
Reply to unenlightened
It doesn't just freshen your breath, it helps you find a mate!
unenlightened July 22, 2025 at 21:50 #1002003
Quoting frank
it helps you find a mate!


In how many moves?
frank July 22, 2025 at 22:24 #1002015
Quoting unenlightened
In how many moves?


I don't know, let me check.
Shawn July 22, 2025 at 22:29 #1002017
Quoting unenlightened
Clover?


Clover pig.

javi2541997 July 23, 2025 at 04:59 #1002093
Now that Ozzy Osbourne passed away, I think jokes about bat-biting would be over forever. RIP mate. I remember discovering Black Sabbath and Ozzy when I was a child because my father liked them.
Hanover July 23, 2025 at 11:59 #1002118
javi2541997 July 23, 2025 at 12:29 #1002122
Reply to Hanover Damn! That's bloody awesome, Hanover. :up:
BC July 23, 2025 at 18:05 #1002170
Reply to Hanover I was never much for bat-head biting during concerts. Bats are endangered and we need every one we can get. Besides that, we now know that bat's immune systems tolerate such a rich mix of viruses that bat chewing could start a pandemic. Speaking of plagues, I avoided heavy metal that way.

At any rate, Black Sabbath debuted this song in 1970. I'm hearing it for the first time now. Thank you. It's not Joan Baez or Pete Seeger, but the lyrics are evocative:

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death's construction

In the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh, Lord, yeah

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
Time will tell on their power minds

Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'til their judgement day comes, yeah

Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where their bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour

Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing, spreads his wings
Oh, Lord, yeah

WAR PIGS probably doesn't get much play at karaoke sing alongs. Yes? No?
Jamal July 23, 2025 at 20:03 #1002199
Quoting BC
Bats are endangered and we need every one we can get.


I agree, but tell that to the bat mass-murderer @Mikie.
Mikie July 23, 2025 at 22:45 #1002229
Reply to Jamal

Justifiable baticide.
Shawn July 24, 2025 at 00:30 #1002251
Pig!
Banno July 24, 2025 at 00:45 #1002254
User image
Shawn July 24, 2025 at 01:09 #1002258
Madness
Hanover July 24, 2025 at 01:53 #1002265
Quoting BC
At any rate, Black Sabbath debuted this song in 1970. I'm hearing it for the first time now. Thank you.


Few things are as amazing as hearing a masterpiece that has somehow gone previously undiscovered. I wish I hadn't heard it before so I could first hear it now like you just did.

More peace loving lyrics from the Prince of Darkness.

Moliere July 24, 2025 at 02:00 #1002266
Reply to javi2541997

I just found this out.

It makes his most recent appearance very poignant: he did not go gently into that night, but rocked on in his metal chair amongst friends and fans against the dying light.
Hanover July 24, 2025 at 02:10 #1002269
When I was a kid we'd watch the bats flap furiously dipping and diving above the street lights that attracted the bugs they made their meal. Maybe that still happens or something changed that stopped that or maybe it was just me who stopped watching. I'd like to think a kid still watches that happen, but I might have been the last group of kids to happen upon that.
T Clark July 24, 2025 at 02:52 #1002274
Quoting Hanover
When I was a kid we'd watch the bats flap furiously dipping and diving above the street lights that attracted the bugs they made their meal. Maybe that still happens or something changed that stopped that or maybe it was just me who stopped watching. I'd like to think a kid still watches that happen, but I might have been the last group of kids to happen upon that.


Something similar - when I lived in Cambridge Massachusetts, the street lights were very tall and in the summer you could see nighthawks catching bugs. Because the lights were so bright in the city you couldn’t really see the sky, so when they dove, it looked like they appeared out of nowhere.
javi2541997 July 24, 2025 at 04:32 #1002285
Quoting T Clark
the street lights were very tall and in the summer you could see nighthawks catching bugs.


This is what I see every night in my grandparents' home in Toledo. But I dislike bugs, honestly. Oh, and I saw a fat spider yesterday that scared me out. Jesus, when did these creatures begin to be born and stay in Spain? I think it is due to climate change or something!
T Clark July 24, 2025 at 05:34 #1002294
Quoting javi2541997
But I dislike bugs


But I really like nighthawks.
BC July 24, 2025 at 06:53 #1002305
Reply to T Clark Don't night hawks also make a brief noise when they dive / 'pounce' on an insect? Kind of a soft whoop sound?

Reply to javi2541997 Most of the spiders in Spain stay mainly on the plains, except the viscous ones that came from the damp dark spider tunnels of central Africa. Those are the black widow (Latrodectus tredecimguttatus) and the recluse (Loxosceles rufescens). Both species hide in dark places where they wait to drop down on bare necks, or find a human paw searching around in the back of a drawer for change to do laundry with.

Death from both black widow and recluse spiders is slow, agonizing, and ghastly to watch. Dying patients are usually taken to the morgue before they are dead so hospital staff don't have to see them in their shriveled up death throes.

We also have black widow and recluse spiders in the United States; ours came from the damp dark spider tunnels in the Amazon rain forest. The crawled all the way from Brazil to to Kansas City, and will soon be in Boston. People do not die from western hemisphere black widow and recluse spider bites. What happens is that they lose their minds, and vote for the most objectionable assholes on the ballot. Clearly, a lot of people in the US are getting bit. They can linger in this condition for decades.

I have to do 15 minutes of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy every morning before I get out of bed just to deal with the dread that there will be a huge spider lurking in the kitchen, maybe in the cupboard with the coffee cups. I have this horror of reaching up to get a coffee cup and feeling a big fat spider trying to wriggle away between my fingers and biting me.

Then there is the basement. 226 gram centipedes vie for supremacy with 12 cm wide spiders. So far, it's a toss-up. Hopefully they won't form an alliance against me.

Spiders in Literature:

Itsy bitsy spider went up the water spout;
Down came the rain and washed the spider out.
Out came the sun and dried the spider out.
Next time the itsy bitsy spider will sneak into your house.

User image

Little Miss Muffet
Sat on a tuffet
Eating curds and whey.
Along came a spider
(big, black, fucking monster)
And sat down beside her and
said, What's in the bowl, bitch?
javi2541997 July 24, 2025 at 07:19 #1002314
Reply to BC Now that you have mentioned black widow spiders, a Vann (David Vann) novel called 'Salmon Island' came to my mind. It is about a trip done by a father and his child with the aim of finding "themselves", so they go to a remote island near Alaska. Anyway, coming back to the topic of spiders: the kid finds a black widow in the bathroom, and he starts to think about the danger of these creatures. But he didn't hesitate at all, and he did whatever to get rid of the spider. Nonetheless, the kid ends up committing suicide, tragically.

I missed that detail the first time I read the novel (it is short; around 150 pages or even less). But now, I believe that Vann wanted to make a parable of death and black widow spiders. The only person who saw this creature was the son, not the father, and he was the one killing himself. It is just my theory. Vann may have put a black widow spider in the plot because he just wanted to, probably.
BC July 24, 2025 at 07:37 #1002319
Reply to javi2541997 Novelists have poetic license (issued by a superior court) to add black widow spiders to a novel set in Alaska, if that's what they really want to do. Black widow spiders are exceedingly rare in Alaska, as far as I know. But then, it's also very rare that anyone ever finds themselves in Alaska. Alaska is a much better place to get lost, get eaten by bears, or trampled by caribou. One could also fall off Mt Denali, or freeze to death.

I think I'll write a short novel about a young philosopher who befriends a wild polar bear in Spain. It turns out that bears are extremely smart and this bear helps this young man with his college classes. The bear is sort of like a very large dog that likes to be scratched and petted, can do geometry, understands Hegel--quite well, actually--and is so grateful to he young philosopher for taking him in and providing him with food (raw meat, preferably, still alive if at all possible) and shelter. The only problem is that he sleeps almost continually between November and March, just when classes get most difficult.

The bear is quite evasive when asked about his education. He's also reluctant to talk about eating people. Sometimes the best policy is giving vague, indefinite answers.
javi2541997 July 24, 2025 at 08:00 #1002331
Reply to BC That would be an excellent plot for a short story, actually! I like when animals are involved in literature. I have always enjoyed fables and related stuff because they helped me to learn life lessons. Surprisingly, it turned out that the Brothers Grimm's novels had a dark hidden message that I wasn't aware of. For example, the wolf was actually a metaphor for paedophiles. This is the weird information that you can find on the Internet, but probably it is not very serious. Furthermore, the short story, fable, novel or poem gets more interesting when ordinary objects are also involved. For example: spoons, cups, napkins, teapots, glasses and crockery.

A teapot starts to have a deep conversation with a bear about Hegel or Argentinian literature. Sadly, this is impossible in what we call "real life", but the imagination is limitless, and we can write about a talking teapot and an intellectual bear. The teapot would be in complex scenarios that required the help from others. Thus, the presence of the bear. And then, everything would turn out okay, with a final wise phrase from the bear, like "one apple a day keeps the doctor away" or something similar.
jorndoe July 25, 2025 at 02:33 #1002467
Perception machinery with side effects, not just humans:

Rubber arm illusion in octopus
[sup]— Sumire Kawashima, Yuzuru Ikeda · Current Biology · Jul 21, 2025[/sup]
We instinctively know our hands and legs belong to us when we see them. This perception, known as the sense of body ownership[sup]1[/sup], is a fundamental aspect of self-consciousness. Although studies show that this sense exists in some mammals, such as humans[sup]2[/sup], monkeys[sup]3,4[/sup], and rodents[sup]5[/sup], research on its existence in non-mammalian animals is still lacking. In this study, we used the rubber hand illusion[sup]2[/sup] to demonstrate that an octopus, an invertebrate (cephalopod mollusk), also experiences body ownership of its arms.


Octopuses fall for the ‘rubber arm’ illusion, just like us (archive)
[sup]— Jasmin Galvan · Science/AAAS · Jul 21, 2025[/sup]
The rubber hand illusion helps demonstrate how our senses work together to create the feeling of ownership over our bodies, a fundamental part of self-awareness.


T Clark July 26, 2025 at 18:03 #1002863
I'm starting to love Chat GPT. It lets me ask complicated questions that probably don't have a good answer in a single location. Then it gives me a synopsis and analysis. I asked this:

Question to ChatGPT:In "The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science" Burtt wrote "The discovery that the same mass has a different weight at different distances from the centre of the earth, together with the mathematical elaboration of Kepler’s laws of motion, led gradually, through the work of Borelli, Huyghens, Wren, Halley, and Hooke, to Newton’s magnificent formulation of the law of gravitation, which united astronomy and mechanics in one mathematical science of matter in motion."

This seems to imply that someone before Newton knew that the same mass has a different weight at different distances from the centre of the earth. Can you explain that?


I won't go into specifics, but it gave me a very good, detailed answer then clarified some issues when I asked a couple of follow-ups.
T Clark July 26, 2025 at 18:15 #1002869
javi2541997 July 26, 2025 at 19:14 #1002883
Quoting T Clark
I'm starting to love Chat GPT.


Yes, but do you know what I can do that ChatGPT can't? I can send you Christmas cards every December via email.
BC July 26, 2025 at 19:22 #1002885
Reply to T Clark I put your question into Chatgpt and got an extended answer which sounded sensible. Then I asked it what was the meaning of life. Again, a sensible (not too deep) response including

Or, if you're a fan of Douglas Adams:

"42."


Many of my Google queries are answered by AI. Many of my Google searches are instigated by terms or processes I come across in history readings, like Atkinson's history of the American Revolution. Maybe a question about the many different kinds of wind-powered ships that were in use, for instance. AI pulls together a batch of information (stolen, of course, from millions of books, newspapers, etc.) and presents a several paragraph answer that enriches my understanding of life in the 18th century.

AI does what encyclopedias did -- condensing a lot of information in 1 place. Except AI's condenser takes in far more sources than Brittanica could. One difference is that there is no editor to check the response. One should take its responses with a few grains of salt, asking whether it's answers are consistent with one's general knowledge (as far as one's general knowledge goes, which might not be far enough).
T Clark July 26, 2025 at 19:28 #1002886
Quoting BC
One difference is that there is no editor to check the response. One should take its responses with a few grains of salt, asking whether it's answers are consistent with one's general knowledge (as far as one's general knowledge goes, which might not be far enough).


I agree with everything you wrote in your post. I don’t worry too much about the issue you raised in the text I quoted above because I don’t really ask questions where I want very specific answers. In this case, I was asking about the general state of science in the period around and before when Newton was working.
T Clark July 26, 2025 at 19:37 #1002889
Quoting javi2541997
Yes, but do you know what I can do that ChatGPT can't? I can send you Christmas cards every December via email.


Yes, it’s true.
Hanover July 26, 2025 at 20:38 #1002899
I asked ChatGpt what question it couldn't answer, and it gave the example "what color is Tuesday," so I asked it that and it said Tuesday has no color.

What this means is that it can answer anything, just not correctly. Sort of like me.
Outlander July 26, 2025 at 21:19 #1002907
Quoting Hanover
Tuesday has no color


Tuesday does in fact have a magnificent color. It's somewhat of a pinkish-purple but with just the slightest tinge of aquamarine strewn about. Anyone who has spiritually ascended would know that.

Artist's depiction of "Tuesday":
User image
T Clark July 26, 2025 at 21:25 #1002910
Quoting Outlander
It's somewhat of a pinkish-purple but with just the slightest tinge of aquamarine strewn about.


You seem to be able to perceive this more clearly than I do. I’ve always thought of Tuesday as just purple.
Hanover July 26, 2025 at 23:49 #1002932
Tuesday's gone with the wind.


Shawn July 27, 2025 at 01:17 #1002949
Who is the man in the high castle?
BC July 27, 2025 at 01:32 #1002957
Reply to Shawn Since I have the brains that God gave pigs, I asked ChatGPT. Chatty said "Hawthorne Abendsen". I read the book but I don't remember much of it. Unlike Chatty, I am not a Generically Pre-stressed Tosspot.

javi2541997 July 27, 2025 at 05:20 #1002995
Quoting Shawn
Who is the man in the high castle?


The man in the high castle is the @Mayor of Simpleton.
jorndoe July 27, 2025 at 14:20 #1003117
Scientists once hoarded pre-nuclear steel; now we’re hoarding pre-AI content
[sup]— Benj Edwards · Ars Technica · Jun 18, 2025[/sup]

As atmospheric nuclear testing ended and background radiation returned to natural levels, low-background steel eventually became unnecessary for most uses. Whether pre-AI content will follow a similar trajectory remains a question.


Seems unlikely (if I understand correctly).

T Clark July 27, 2025 at 16:05 #1003135
A pendulum clock moved from sea level to an altitude of 4,000 feet will lose approximately 16 seconds per day.
javi2541997 July 27, 2025 at 16:57 #1003146
Reply to T Clark I am glad you shared that fact with us because I was thinking about bringing a pendulum clock with me to El Teide.
Hanover July 27, 2025 at 19:06 #1003174
Reply to T Clark Do you know if the torsion pendulum found in the anniversary clock suffers the same loss of time?

User image
Hanover July 27, 2025 at 19:10 #1003175
Did you know that it's called an anniversary clock because it must be wound just once per year? My understanding though is that they are mechanically finicky and keep poor time regardless of altitude.
javi2541997 July 27, 2025 at 19:33 #1003181
Talking about watches. I think the best are the cuckoo ones. It is five o'clock in the afternoon, and the bird starts singing "cukcooo" "cuckooo" and then turns back to his metal nest beyond the tiny copper doors.
Hanover July 27, 2025 at 19:49 #1003184
Quoting javi2541997
Talking about watches. I think the best are the cuckoo ones. It is five o'clock in the afternoon, and the bird starts singing "cukcooo" "cuckooo" and then turns back to his metal nest beyond the tiny copper doors.


I have a cuckoo clock in my kitchen, but I do like the idea of the cuckoo wrist watch. Long sleeve shirts are a problem, but otherwise a solid idea.
javi2541997 July 27, 2025 at 20:04 #1003196
Quoting Hanover
I have a cuckoo clock in my kitchen


I think the kitchen is the correct place for a cuckooo clock. However, the bathroom is also nice. There are different cuckoo clocks, but I insist that the best are when the bird goes in and out of its cage or copper room.
T Clark July 27, 2025 at 20:19 #1003217
Quoting Hanover
Do you know if the torsion pendulum found in the anniversary clock suffers the same loss of time?


I would assume that torsion pendulum clocks have the same issue since their action depends on the effects of gravity in the same way that regular pendulum clocks do.

Hanover July 27, 2025 at 21:04 #1003237
Quoting T Clark
I would assume that torsion pendulum clocks have the same issue since their action depends on the effects of gravity in the same way that regular pendulum clocks do.


This is incorrect.

Torsion pendulum clocks make no reference to gravity like ordinary pendulum clocks do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_spring#

An anniversary clock might be the solution I was looking for at altitude.
T Clark July 27, 2025 at 21:17 #1003244
Quoting Hanover
Torsion pendulum clocks make no reference to gravity like ordinary pendulum clocks do.


You are correct.
BC July 28, 2025 at 01:30 #1003305
Reply to T Clark Reply to Hanover Reply to javi2541997 I have an "air clock" It was a leftover in my brother's estate.

It doesn't actually "run on air". It runs on changes in temperature in the room which causes gas inside a chamber to expand or contract, acting on a diaphragm which applies movement to a flywheel, thus running the clock.

This kind of 'atmos clock" was developed by Jean-Léon Reutter in 1928, with later commercial production by Jaeger-LeCoultre.

The clock is in a box because there are already 7 clocks in the house which seems like more than enough. None of them are cuckoo clocks.

The clock is sort of like the Stirling engine, which is an externally heated engine that produces power from internal changes in temperature. It was invented in the early 19th century.

... introduced guests to NASA's Stirling engine technology, a free-piston Stirling power convertor that set records for accomplishing 14 years of maintenance-free operation at NASA Glenn in 2020.
Hanover July 28, 2025 at 03:11 #1003327
Reply to BC When I was a kid, there was a phone number you could call and it would tell you the exact time to the second and then it would beep. That's how we set out clocks. Most southern towns had a square and there was clock tower either on the courthouse, city hall, or the main church. That was probably from a time when some people had no other way to know the time. Now the time gets beamed from outer space into our cell phones.

Knowing the exact second of the day used to not be as important.
T Clark July 28, 2025 at 03:24 #1003331
Quoting Hanover
Knowing the exact second of the day used to not be as important.


Unless you had to get to 80 miles an hour at exactly the right time.
Tom Storm July 28, 2025 at 03:32 #1003335
Quoting Hanover
When I was a kid, there was a phone number you could call and it would tell you the exact time to the second and then it would beep.


Yep, in Australia the voice said: "At the third stroke it will be 10:47 and 45 seconds: beep, beep, beep... At the third..."

Quoting BC
The clock is in a box because there are already 7 clocks in the house which seems like more than enough. None of them are cuckoo clocks.


Curiously I've been looking at clocks today on line. I only have one at my place - a Bakelite Smiths from the 1940's. I had a quartz movement put in it 20 years ago which is now losing time, like me... Problem is I hate the look of most clocks and I don't want a mechanical one. What to do....
Jamal July 28, 2025 at 03:34 #1003336
Clock time was invented to coordinate exploitation.
javi2541997 July 28, 2025 at 04:45 #1003342
Quoting BC
The clock is in a box because there are already 7 clocks in the house which seems like more than enough. None of them are cuckoo clocks.


The number of clocks is never enough. I think of infinite rooms with an infinite number of clocks (cuckoo's if it is possible), and it makes me happy. It is important to know the correct time, but remember! A cracked clock says the time correctly two times a day!

Quoting Jamal
Clock time was invented to coordinate exploitation.


No! Clock time was invented to say "paella and horchata" time! :cool:
BC July 28, 2025 at 04:50 #1003344
Quoting Hanover
Knowing the exact second of the day used to not be as important.


Around 1880 a company in Paris installed a large pneumatic clock system. Anyone could subscribe to the service for a small fee. Schools, railroad stations, businesses, government offices and some private homes had them. Tubes connected all the clocks to a master piston which provided all the clocks with a pulse that drove them. All of the clocks thus showed the exact same time everywhere in the system.

This sort of system made sense by 1880. What with business appointments, local and long distance trains, and so on there was now a need to have the precise time at hand. Time to the nearest hour, half hour, or quarter hour -- maybe not even the nearest 3 minutes -- could result in one missing the train, being late for a meeting, or court, last call at the saloon, or whatever.
BC July 28, 2025 at 04:55 #1003348
Quoting Jamal
Clock time was invented to coordinate exploitation.


Another reason clock time was invented was to make sure monks said their prayers on time.

Little known fact: God is very particular about punctuality, and His awful wrath was kindled by a hundred different monasteries in France starting morning prayers at 25 different times. No wonder there were plagues!
javi2541997 July 28, 2025 at 05:23 #1003352
Quoting BC
Another reason clock time was invented was to make sure monks said their prayers on time.


I think there are many reasons why clocks were invented, but I believe most of them are good and positive. However, some mates, such as @Jamal, have a Marxist perspective on the negative side of clock time.
Jamal July 28, 2025 at 05:35 #1003358
Quoting BC
Another reason clock time was invented was to make sure monks said their prayers on time.


The horarium was originally based on rough, flexible divisions, stemming from Roman timekeeping, which had variable hours. Certainly, clock time came to be used by monasteries, and this probably helped it to spread, but it was obviously not the original basis for the horarium, nor was the need for its standardization the cause of clock time's eventual dominance.

Jamal July 28, 2025 at 05:44 #1003361
Reply to javi2541997

No doubt you're confused because your circadian rhythm is disrupted by living in the wrong timezone.
Hanover July 28, 2025 at 10:08 #1003383
Quoting BC
Around 1880 a company in Paris installed a large pneumatic clock system.


Had air or steam power become standardized as opposed to electricity, things have been much better. Steampunk fashion is also much cooler.

User image
User image
T Clark July 28, 2025 at 15:59 #1003429
Quoting Hanover
Had air or steam power become standardized as opposed to electricity, things have been much better. Steampunk fashion is also much cooler.


I really like your steampunk light. It’s only missing one thing - Brooke Shields.
Hanover July 28, 2025 at 16:38 #1003434
The Amish are not permitted to be connected to the greater community, which includes prohibitions against sharing the same power grid, water, or natural gas. They therefore use air powered appliances that they can hook up to a stand alone compressor.

https://cottagecraftworks.com/kitchen-food-prep/non-electric-kitchen-appliances/air-powered-appliances?srsltid=AfmBOoovZg0M7JpgOSdMcknLeRMnAIYsLCcPqa65sEnyh6WxsAe6-11X

Hanover July 28, 2025 at 16:47 #1003436
User image
Quoting T Clark
I really like your steampunk light. It’s only missing one thing - Brooke Shields.


T Clark July 28, 2025 at 17:11 #1003437
BC July 28, 2025 at 19:10 #1003461
duplicate post
BC July 28, 2025 at 19:18 #1003463
Reply to javi2541997 The number of clocks is never enough. I think of infinite rooms with an infinite number of clocks (cuckoo's if it is possible), and it makes me happy.

If an infinite number of rooms with an infinite number of clocks can be arranged, then an infinite number of cuckoo clocks should be no problem. Even mid-century modern cuckoos.

User image
Hanover July 29, 2025 at 01:50 #1003558
Quoting BC
The number of clocks is never enough. I think of infinite rooms with an infinite number of clocks (cuckoo's if it is possible), and it makes me happy.


I have dozens of clocks, many mechanical. I find the tick tocking relaxing until interrupted by the chimes and cuckoo. This is the time card clock that once was in my grandfather's junk store. It cost more to get running than probably it was worth, but it has a very solid tick. User image
T Clark July 29, 2025 at 01:53 #1003561
Quoting Hanover
This is the time card clock that once was in my grandfather's junk store.


You should take it into the office and tell everyone you, Loblaw, and T Clark (no relation) have decided to change your attendance policy.
BC July 29, 2025 at 02:50 #1003579
Quoting Hanover
This is the time card clock that once was in my grandfather's junk store.


That's a nice piece, family connection and all.

"Junk stores" are always interesting, though they are likely to be classed as "vintage" or "collectable" stores now. It's still junk. "Hazelton's Variety" was a classic junk store near college, back in the 60s. We made regular trips there; Bob, one of my two roommates, was obsessed with it. He had all sorts of stuff, some of it good. Some of it was like the b&w television Bob bought there and carried back to our room. It didn't work very well. Did it work at all? Can't quite remember. It ended up where it should have gone earlier. I discovered my first actual pornography on a shelf there.
frank July 29, 2025 at 13:44 #1003706
Reply to BC
Lord, won't you buy me a color TV?
Jamal July 29, 2025 at 13:48 #1003707
Like so many podcasts it's messy and rambling, but it's very interesting and I'm tempted to read the book, A Social History of Analytic Philosophy, which is likely to put the cat among the pigeons. It's far from neutral.

Shawn July 29, 2025 at 16:37 #1003738
Pig?
Shawn July 29, 2025 at 16:38 #1003740
This will be interesting...

Pig?
javi2541997 July 29, 2025 at 16:51 #1003747
Reply to Shawn I swear I saw a similar post that got deleted. Now, it is duplicated. Interesting.
Shawn July 29, 2025 at 17:15 #1003755
Quoting javi2541997
I swear I saw a similar post that got deleted. Now, it is duplicated. Interesting.


Intentionality of a pig is always good.
Hanover July 29, 2025 at 18:02 #1003763
Quoting Jamal
Like so many podcasts it's messy and rambling, but it's very interesting and I'm tempted to read the book, A Social History of Analytic Philosophy, which is likely to put the cat among the pigeons. It's far from neutral.


So I thought about this, and I asked myself why a particular mode of meta-thinking would correlate with a political or social philosophy. I didn't listen to the video, so I have no idea what it says, but I did look at the picture of the video on your post, so my analysis is somewhat limited. I would think that those socially conservative would lean toward an analytic mindset, but I also don't think anyone in any philosophy department is what I'd call particularly conservative.

But enough about your post and on to me.

I went down a rabbit hole on hermeneutics and I came upon a bloke named Gadamer who seems to be the person one should read on the topic. I opted out from him and got a book about hermaneutics generally, an introductory book of sorts. The idea of how you interpret is interesting to me, which maybe your post (at least the picture of the video) sparked. I wonder though how these things relate, as in, is the analytic method just a socially created hermeneutic? Maybe that's what your video is about. It likely explains how it is just a hermeneutic and it's used to put its boot on the little guy's neck.

My interest really relates to biblical interpretations, which allows me to avoid the absurdities of the bible but instead to reinterpret it under a hermeneutic that requires it be right, which, let's be honest, that's what most of them are. I'll call it reverential hermeneutics.
Hanover July 29, 2025 at 18:08 #1003764
Quoting T Clark
You should take it into the office and tell everyone you, Loblaw, and T Clark (no relation) have decided to change your attendance policy.


I'll have everyone stand in a long line with their metal lunch boxes and then clock in. They can later eat their lunch on a swinging girder overlooking the city. Some will die, sure, but they will die having built this city damnit.

T Clark July 29, 2025 at 18:12 #1003767
Quoting Hanover
I'll have everyone stand in a long line with their metal lunch boxes and then clock in. They can later eat their lunch on a swinging girder overlooking the city. Some will die, sure, but they will die having built this city damnit.


Then on Friday, they can stand in line and the paymaster will pay them with two dollar bills from his cash box. That was the original direct deposit.
MoK July 29, 2025 at 18:23 #1003770
Interview with Elton John

Jamal July 29, 2025 at 18:36 #1003773
Reply to Hanover

I think hermeneutics began among the bible [s]bashers[/s] interpreters, and Gadamer is a relative, and relatively secular, latecomer. Aside from his philosophical hermeneutics you've got biblical hermeneutics, Talmudic hermeneutics, Quranic hermeneutics, etc.

But as far as I can tell, philosophical hermeneutics, such as Gadamer's, is about human understanding in general rather than anything so specific as interpreting texts.

Quoting Hanover
is the analytic method just a socially created hermeneutic? Maybe that's what your video is about.


I'm not sure what you mean. Analytic philosophy, its style, methods, and interests, are socially created, if you like, but they might amount to something like a worldview or an ideology rather than a hermeneutic.

Quoting Hanover
It likely explains how it is just a hermeneutic and it's used to put its boot on the little guy's neck.


This looks a bit like a scurrilous accusation but I'm not quite sure. I mean, I'd love to be angry, outraged, and righteous right now but even I need some kind of germ of a reason. Who's the little guy? The way they talk about it in the video, the little guy with the boot on his neck is so-called continental philosophy. The guy wearing the boot is analytic philosophy and the liberal (as in conservative) cultural establishment.

EDIT: No, I get it now. Pretty much yeah.
Jamal July 29, 2025 at 18:54 #1003776
Reply to Hanover

One thing I particularly liked was the idea that the history of analytic philosophy recapitulates what happens in Hume’s Treatise: from deference to science, to the irresolvable problems of epistemology (scepticism, causation, direct vs indirect perception, the “problem” of other minds, etc), and finally a retreat to common sense.
jorndoe July 30, 2025 at 00:50 #1003864
Dropping needles on the sheet with parallel lines, and the probability of crossing a line is 2/?, of all things. Seemingly unrelated to circles.

Buffon's Needle Experiment (— The Colorado Classroom · Feb 16, 2022 · 31s)

This Probability Experiment Mysteriously Reveals Pi (— Mario Livio · NOVA | PBS · Jul 15, 2025 · 1m:14s)

So now you know.

Banno July 30, 2025 at 01:46 #1003873
Reply to Jamal Summarised transcript:

Kristoff Shuringa discusses the social history of analytic philosophy, examining its origins and evolution. He highlights three defining characteristics: a difference to science, a retreat to common sense, and an impulse towards therapy. These characteristics are traced back to the work of philosophers like Bertrand Russell, G.E. Moore, and Ludwig Wittgenstein, and are seen as a continuation of 18th-century trends, particularly those of David Hume.

Analytic philosophy, particularly through figures like Russell and Moore, is often portrayed as a rebellion against Hegelianism. However, this narrative is overstated, as Cambridge philosophy in the late 19th century was not dominated by Hegelians. Russell and Moore’s early critiques of empiricism, influenced by figures like McTaggart, evolved into more empiricist views, reflecting their intellectual background and the broader philosophical landscape.

The Vienna Circle, a group of philosophers, advocated for the unity of science through empirical inquiry, linking it to social projects like universal housing and education. Their commitment to public engagement and education, evident in their extensive outreach to workers, contrasted with the more isolated approach of Cambridge philosophers. However, the rise of fascism forced many members to emigrate to America, where their philosophy underwent significant changes.

Elizabeth Anscombe protested Oxford’s decision to award Harry Truman an honorary degree, arguing his use of atomic bombs constituted mass murder. Her dissent, supported by only a few others, was met with widespread opposition and misogynistic backlash. The Cold War climate, marked by McCarthyism and the influence of think tanks like the Rand Corporation, shaped the development of analytic philosophy in the US, with many prominent philosophers working on government-funded projects.

The current funding landscape in academia, particularly in the US, echoes McCarthyism with a focus on AI and tech bro ideology. This shift, coupled with overt political pressures, is leading to the policing of free inquiry in universities, reminiscent of the Angela Davis affair. The construction of continental philosophy as a category, often demonised by analytic philosophers, has led to its institutionalisation, creating a reality that both fields must contend with.

The distinction between analytic and continental philosophy is understood, despite objections to its methodological and geographical basis. While analytic philosophy has attempted to address social crises, its long-term projects have struggled to respond effectively. This has led to a growing interest in continental thinkers and a perceived “social turn” in analytic philosophy, though this is debated.

Analytic philosophy has shifted towards social topics, particularly feminism and critical race theory. This shift has resulted in a recasting of these movements in analytic terms, often detaching them from their real-world roots. The author warns against this neutralisation and liberalisation of critical movements, emphasising the need to actualise philosophy rather than maintaining it as a discourse.

Marx’s critique of Hegel centres on Hegel’s failed conception of dialectic, which Marx believes is rooted in the notion that philosophy is self-sufficient. Marx attempts to actualise philosophy by making it the activity of living human thinking beings, a concept he explores in his later work, Capital. The book delves into Marx’s critique of Hegel and his attempt to actualise philosophy through dialectic in Capital.


Not seeing much critique.
Banno July 30, 2025 at 01:54 #1003875
Hanover July 30, 2025 at 02:14 #1003878
Quoting Jamal
I'm not sure what you mean. Analytic philosophy, its style, methods, and interests, are socially created, if you like, but they might amount to something like a worldview or an ideology rather than a hermeneutic.


How do you seperate ideology and worldview from hermaneitic in the sense that wouldn't one expect a different worldview to inform the way I interpret most everything?

Do we even speak the same language if we have different forms of life in the Wittgensteinian sense?

Quoting Jamal
But as far as I can tell, philosophical hermeneutics, such as Gadamer's, is about human understanding in general rather than anything so specific as interpreting texts.


Yeah, but isn't it arbitrary to limit hermeneutics to textual interpretation, as if written communication differs importantly from any other form?
Hanover July 30, 2025 at 02:23 #1003879
But I think this plays into my all language is poetry theory, with varying degrees of metaphor and description of the shadows on the walls. How I perceive the world is that much more distance from the idea to the symbol.
Banno July 30, 2025 at 02:57 #1003886
Garum was pretty much the same as modern south asian fish sauce.

Quoting Amino acids and minerals in ancient remnants of fish sauce (garum) sampled in the “Garum Shop” of Pompeii, Italy
We report that analysis of remnants from ancient fish sauce (garum) confirmed a pattern of free amino acids, and especially a high content of glutamate, comparable to that detected in modern Italian and Asian products. Although the present evidence cannot be considered as conclusive, it leads to the conclusion that Romans in the first century AD enjoyed glutamate-based umami condiments that almost exactly paralleled modern Asian and Italian fish sauces in culinary usage, production process and


Yum.
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 03:16 #1003889
Quoting Hanover
How do you seperate ideology and worldview from hermaneitic in the sense that wouldn't one expect a different worldview to inform the way I interpret most everything?


Yeah, but surely analytic philosophy is not just a method of interpretation. It seems like an odd use of the term. But maybe you know better than me—I don't know much about hermeneutics.

EDIT: And you make a distinction between a hermeneutic and a worldview/ideology yourself, in admitting that the former is just one product of the latter.

Quoting Hanover
Yeah, but isn't it arbitrary to limit hermeneutics to textual interpretation, as if written communication differs importantly from any other form?


Sure, I guess that's the justification for philosophical hermeneutics, and I'm not against it.
Hanover July 30, 2025 at 04:08 #1003898
Quoting Jamal
And you make a distinction between a hermeneutic and a worldview/ideology yourself, in admitting that the former is just one product of the latter.


So, should I adhere to a textual Constitutional interpretation and you a historical evolutionary view, we might otherwise share a general worldview, particularly if it were distantly related, like if we were both Marxists. Our worldviews might not inform that hermaneitic. Although you could certainly see where it would be the case, as in if I were a theist interpreting the Bible and you an atheist. We'd interpret very differently.

And since I refuse boundaries on this and deny it's just textual interpretation, I see my interpretation of the blowing of a leaf as differing from someone else's who denies purpose to events and sees such things as random.

I do recognize my pushing hermeneutics to lived experience might be horseshit, but I like it nonetheless and it might be a sustainable theory. Maybe the book I ordered addresses this. But, I will say, that the worldview I'm describing,sustainable or not, does create a distinct hermeneutic.

Jamal July 30, 2025 at 04:13 #1003899
Quoting Hanover
So, should I adhere to a textual Constitutional interpretation and you a historical evolutionary view, we might otherwise share a general worldview, particularly if it were distantly related, like if we were both Marxists. Our worldviews might not inform that hermaneitic. Although you could certainly see where it would be the case, as in if I were a theist interpreting the Bible and you an atheist. We'd interpret very differently.


I don't know what you mean. On the face of it it doesn’t seem to go against what I’ve said.

Quoting Hanover
And since I refuse boundaries on this and deny it's just textual interpretation, I see my interpretation of the blowing of a leaf as differing from someone else's who denies purpose events and sees such things as random.

I do recognize my pushing hermeneutics to lived experience might be horseshit, but I like it nonetheless and it might be a sustainable theory. Maybe the book I ordered addresses this. But, I will say, that the worldview I'm describing,sustainable or not, does create a distinct hermeneutic.


I never said hermeneutics was just textual interpretation, so you have my blessing.
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 04:41 #1003902
Quoting Banno
Not seeing much critique


You could mean that you literally don't see much in the transcript that is critical of AP, or you could mean you don’t see much good critique. I’ll address the first position. The transcript softens the tone of the podcast, which is quite anti-AP. But even just the transcript indicates a few distinct lines of critique:

  • AP’s origin story of the rebellion against the dominance of Hegelianism is false (in the podcast the book’s author puts it far more strongly than “overstated”).
  • AP was misogynistic, as demonstrated by the attitude of the male philosophers to Elizabeth Anscombe (and Philippa Foot, I believe).
  • AP ostracized Anscombe for opposing the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, demonstrating its conservatism and intolerance of dissent.
  • AP was shaped, both in its style and method and in its politics, by the support it had from right-wing think-tanks.
  • The current funding of AP in the US influences its approach and its interests, such that it functions as ideological support for particularly harmful tendencies among the rich and powerful, like right-wing “tech bros”.
  • AP’s recent treatment of feminism and racism neutralizes all radical critique in these movements. It defangs them to make them palatable to the liberal elbow-patch brigade (or whatever AP philosophers wear these days).
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 04:52 #1003904
AP’s anti-historicism is also mentioned a few times in the podcast. Whether the book manages to trace that back to social conditions, I don’t know.
Shawn July 30, 2025 at 05:00 #1003907
Reply to Banno

Yes, see the pig allows such stuff because it is good.
javi2541997 July 30, 2025 at 05:23 #1003911
Quoting Shawn
Yes, see the pig allows such stuff because it is good.


I thought the same. Pigs are such honest and good animals. But, for unknown reasons, they often love to eat children and dead corpses.
Banno July 30, 2025 at 05:33 #1003912
Reply to Jamal Good stuff, maybe. Although I'm allergic to Youtube, I might have to put up with the itch.

Frege was a supporter of Hegelianism, if anything, and the push from Moore and Russell was against British hegelianism, a quite particular variety, so there is probably something in the claim. Later Analytic types adopted Hegel with aplomb. It wasn't just the philosophers who ostracised Anscombe - it was pretty much the whole of academia, of which Analytic Philosophy is a part, and all of them of the Western Middle classes...

So I guess that's what we might expect.


Jamal July 30, 2025 at 05:36 #1003914
Quoting Banno
Although I'm allergic to Youtube, I might have to put up with the itch.


Also available on Spotify etc.

Quoting Banno
So I guess that's what we might expect.


I expected some pushback. Disappointed!
Banno July 30, 2025 at 05:44 #1003916
Reply to Jamal There's reasons I didn't go into academia. Mostly money, but not entirely.

Outlander July 30, 2025 at 06:07 #1003920
@Banno in the Shoutbox? Of all persons? How strange.

I'll let the NPC dialog from a video game I recently started playing capture my sentiment.

[hide="Reveal"][/hide]

It gets a bit superfluous after 0:45 but the point remains! :sweat:
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 06:16 #1003921
Quoting Outlander
How strange


By my reckoning Banno has posted between 420 and 450 times in the Shoutbox. Thats about 3.6 times per month.
Outlander July 30, 2025 at 06:41 #1003926
Quoting Jamal
By my reckoning Banno has posted between 420 and 450 times in the Shoutbox. Thats about 3.6 times per month.


Oh. Well, you would know, after all. That's why you're the site owner and I'm not, assuredly.

Such a grand and intriguing intellect, that one has. Yes, indeed. Yet he only reveals so, from what I have observed, during certain moments. Perhaps I'm just a bit jealous is all. Yes, that must be it. :smile:
Banno July 30, 2025 at 06:41 #1003927
Reply to Outlander

Here's a compendium, for your edification and enjoyment, beginning with that curve where the top of the thigh meets the buttock.


And proof that Goats preceded pigs. Indeed, the goats were there in the previous incarnation of this forum.
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 06:44 #1003928
Quoting Outlander
Oh. Well, you would know, after all. That's why you're the site owner and I'm not, assuredly.


Actually, I worked it out by means available to any member.
javi2541997 July 30, 2025 at 06:46 #1003929
It is scary how time flies: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/714088

And Clarky (@T Clark) replied to me: Yes. I wasn't paying attention and the solstice slipped by me.

Mate, that happened more than three years ago...
Outlander July 30, 2025 at 06:56 #1003931
Quoting Jamal
Actually, I worked it out by means available to any member.


This statement is correct yet missing information some may consider lacking to constitute what is "True," Any person, even a non-person robot could peruse said profile and determine such information. But yes, you told no lie. At least, not one anyone could declare as such. Other than yourself, that is.
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 07:06 #1003934
Reply to Outlander

Are you asking how to work it out? Or are you indulging in meaningless and pretentious verbiage just for the fun of it? I suspect the latter, and that's fine, since it's the Shoutbox, where meaningless verbiage is encouraged.
Banno July 30, 2025 at 07:22 #1003936
Reply to Outlander For comparison, you have around the same number of posts here, but over only five years, and beginning with "test?".

It went down hill from there.
Outlander July 30, 2025 at 07:30 #1003937
Reply to Jamal I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I must admit. No doubt a result of my own nagging follies and various idiosyncrasies, to put them lightly. I like polishing and refining things so they can be their best. I simply found an opportunity to do so, and of course, I had to take it. Yes, that part is correct. I simply meant that one dost not need be the part of the grouping described for such information to be "available." Yes it was a bit of a meaningless commentary. Perhaps I just like talking to you. Surely, only a person at war with themself would consider such a harmless interest as something bothersome!
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 07:30 #1003938
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 07:34 #1003939
Quoting Outlander
I simply meant that one dost not need be the part of the grouping described for such information to be "available."


But this is not putting it "simply". Better put it like this: I simply meant that you don't need to be a member to get that information, or similar (since you haven't adequately communicated, I can't be confident of the accuracy of my version—the main thing is the style).

Go for muscle and bite, not fanciness.
Outlander July 30, 2025 at 07:36 #1003940
Quoting Banno
you have around the same number of posts here, but over only five years, and beginning with "test?".

It went down hill from there.


I haven't noticed.

Yes we all begin with something unrecognizable from what we are meant to become. Did you yourself not start with much less, barely a cry from a doctor pulling you out from a womb? Yes, we all begin ignorant. Some call this the tragedy of life. But what I call the real tragedy is men who become so self-aggrandized they dismiss the very process and therefore meaning of not only learning and growth but life itself. That's what I call going downhill. But you're entitled to your opinion. You are a rare sort around these parts, after all. And for that I salute you. Only... if I were in your shoes, I couldn't help but ask myself, what all shall be done with that which men fought and died yet failed to obtain that I have and throw around, use, and misuse, like a common rag doll. Oh, I'm sorry, I've rambled long enough. Do make good decisions going forward, please. :smile:
Banno July 30, 2025 at 07:41 #1003942
Quoting Outlander
I haven't noticed


Casum in puncto.

Banno July 30, 2025 at 08:17 #1003950
The local Dealer just arrived with a fresh copy of Mixed Emotions, Kaleo.

Still like to get the CD.



Play loud.
Shawn July 30, 2025 at 08:41 #1003955
Reply to Banno

How much did you pay?
Banno July 30, 2025 at 08:45 #1003956
Reply to Shawn Me? No idea. Didn't think it important.

Banno July 30, 2025 at 08:52 #1003958
Found a pumpkin hiding in the sweet peas.

Roasted and soup'd, now sup'd. With a focaccia and a spoon of yoghurt. Still a bit hot, but unbelievably sweet.

Hence the yoghurt.



Jamal July 30, 2025 at 08:58 #1003959
Reply to Banno

Sweet and sour. I've never been a pumpkin man but I’m open to changing my ways.
Banno July 30, 2025 at 09:03 #1003960
Reply to Jamal A hint of ginger, parsley and a couple of bay leaves, cooked for hours so the flavours come out - just the subtle aroma of spice.

You'd enjoy it.

There's a bit left, help yourself.
Jamal July 30, 2025 at 09:07 #1003961
Reply to Banno

Nom nom :yum:
Shawn July 30, 2025 at 11:00 #1003986
Reply to Banno

Oh, but said the pig to the goat, "you don't have to pay."

Banno July 30, 2025 at 11:16 #1003988
Quoting Shawn
"you don't have to pay."


I know. I think it's incumbent on the audience to recompense deserving artists.

They gotta make a livin' too.





Shawn July 30, 2025 at 11:24 #1003989
Beautiful sows:

User image
Banno July 30, 2025 at 11:38 #1003991
Beautiful sows and a goat.

User image
Hanover July 30, 2025 at 12:45 #1004000
Reply to Banno You can't feed a goat meat.
wonderer1 July 30, 2025 at 16:48 #1004035
Quoting jorndoe
Dropping needles on the sheet with parallel lines, and the probability of crossing a line is 2/?, of all things. Seemingly unrelated to circles.


The rotations of the needles with respect to the lines results in a 'circular' element to the probability. So ? showing up in the probability is unsurprising to me.
T Clark July 30, 2025 at 17:14 #1004041
Something of possible philosophical importance just happened to me. I was using voice to text responding to a post here. I made reference to “Descartes,” which was rendered as “dick heart.”
T Clark July 30, 2025 at 17:17 #1004043
Quoting javi2541997
And Clarky (@T Clark) replied to me: Yes. I wasn't paying attention and the solstice slipped by me.


That Clarky, what a wacky guy.
Janus July 30, 2025 at 22:44 #1004072
Reply to T Clark The Heart of Dickness by Joseph Cuntrad
T Clark July 30, 2025 at 23:55 #1004083
Quoting Janus
The Heart of Dickness by Joseph Cuntrad


Oh, the whorer, the whorer.
Janus July 31, 2025 at 00:00 #1004084
Reply to T Clark What an whorendous cuntrag?
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 00:34 #1004090
Harry P. Ness
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 01:11 #1004109
Reply to Banno

See, the goat is very hungry and will even eat anything. While a sow will only provide.
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 01:39 #1004117
Look at this pig! It looks confused or something.

User image
What do you think?
Hanover July 31, 2025 at 02:04 #1004127
Quoting Shawn
Look at this pig! It looks confused or something.


Even a blind pig can find an acorn.
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 02:34 #1004132
Quoting Hanover
Even a blind pig can find an acorn.


I looked at the pig, and it kinda looks like a ratpig.

See, ratpigs, are even more desirous than goats.
Banno July 31, 2025 at 08:23 #1004172
Reply to Shawn

User image
Note the pig.
Tom Storm July 31, 2025 at 08:27 #1004173
Reply to Banno What a sweet creature.
Banno July 31, 2025 at 08:28 #1004175
Reply to Tom Storm Very proud of her new boots.
javi2541997 July 31, 2025 at 10:51 #1004196
I saw my mum cooking a big bowl of ensaladilla rusa and when she gazed at my eyes she quickly warned me: this is not for you. We have a dinner tonight, and I will bring this ensaladilla. I feel sad now. I wasn't invited to that party and I will not eat ensaladilla today.
javi2541997 July 31, 2025 at 10:55 #1004197
User image
Hanover July 31, 2025 at 12:15 #1004204
Quoting Janus
The Heart of Dickness by Joseph Cuntrad


An unfortunate last name. Highschool must have been difficult for Joey.
Paul July 31, 2025 at 14:29 #1004215
Reply to javi2541997 What is your "planting" and how may I exercise my ownership rights? Is it a farm somewhere?
javi2541997 July 31, 2025 at 15:04 #1004221
Reply to Paul Hey Paul! How are you doing!? :smile:

Quoting Paul
What is your "planting" and how may I exercise my ownership rights?


It is a planting of tomatoes. Don't worry about your co-ownership rights; I have already taken the required steps to make everything legal.

Quoting Paul
Is it a farm somewhere?


Yes. It is located in Paracuellos del Jarama, Madrid (Spain). It's close to where I live.

Tomates (Paul y Javi Sociedad Limitada).
Paul July 31, 2025 at 17:43 #1004262
Reply to javi2541997 I'm relieved to hear the tomatoes are now legal. May they win many awards and be worth billions.
Jamal July 31, 2025 at 17:49 #1004265
Quoting javi2541997
when she gazed at my eyes she quickly warned me: this is not for you


Ouch.
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 19:09 #1004275
Pigs galore:

User image

I don't know why I keep on posting Kune Kune pigs; but, they're adorable.
frank July 31, 2025 at 20:44 #1004291
We could genetically engineer shrimp so they're about 3 feet across. One shrimp would feed a whole family. Or if we made shrimps as big as cows, you could cut them up into shrimp steaks and freeze them. You just take them out and put them in the microwave with butter.
T Clark July 31, 2025 at 20:51 #1004294
Reply to Shawn
Billy Mumy
Hanover July 31, 2025 at 20:59 #1004295
"In 1963, a sixteen-year-old San Diego high school student named Bruce McAllister sent a four-question mimeographed survey to 150 well-known authors of literary, commercial, and science fiction. Did they consciously plant symbols in their work? he asked. Who noticed symbols appearing from their subconscious, and who saw them arrive in their text, unbidden, created in the minds of their readers?"

The interesting responses:

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2011/12/05/document-the-symbolism-survey/?fbclid=IwY2xjawL4tztleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETE3VXlYd09uUWsxN1dUWnpVAR7KJvclN0chthG_hJhvaTDkefhWtnsIoVKjyP3apO5GcJlKFcor0ACVTWXikA_aem_Gcx7ZnWaAliL63H4wBWFXA
Hanover July 31, 2025 at 21:10 #1004299
Quoting frank
We could genetically engineer shrimp so they're about 3 feet across. One shrimp would feed a whole family. Or if we made shrimps as big as cows, you could cut them up into shrimp steaks and freeze them. You just take them out and put them in the microwave with butter.


I question whether the integrity of their exoskeleton could support them. I also question whether they could sustain oxymoronic challenges to their jumbo shrimpness.

frank July 31, 2025 at 21:23 #1004300
Quoting Hanover
I question whether the integrity of their exoskeleton could support them. I also question whether they could sustain oxymoronic challenges to their jumbo shrimpness.


So you're saying the whole project would implode.

frank July 31, 2025 at 21:24 #1004301
Quoting T Clark
Billy Mumy


I knew a guy named Don Mumy. He worked in a cave with water dripping down the walls. He always talked on two phones at the same time and he owned a 1955 chevy with bubblepack seatcovers.
T Clark July 31, 2025 at 21:40 #1004303
Quoting frank
I knew a guy named Don Mumy.


It’s unlikely they are related.
T Clark July 31, 2025 at 21:43 #1004305
Quoting Hanover
An unfortunate last name. Highschool must have been difficult for Joey.


Perhaps that wasn’t as big an issue in Polish.
T Clark July 31, 2025 at 21:49 #1004306
Quoting frank
We could genetically engineer shrimp so they're about 3 feet across. One shrimp would feed a whole family. Or if we made shrimps as big as cows, you could cut them up into shrimp steaks and freeze them. You just take them out and put them in the microwave with butter.


There are companies right now developing and even marketing cultured meat and fish. There’s probably no reason that can’t be done for shrimp too if it hasn’t been already.
Metaphysician Undercover July 31, 2025 at 21:55 #1004307
Quoting Hanover
Did they consciously plant symbols in their work?


SymBolism. isn't a novel just a ream of symbolism?

But the form of questioning is interesting. Who notices symbols arising from the subconscious, and jumping into the text? Good thing he asked Kerouac. Most of those authors probably lied anyway, they were fiction writers. But then why reply?
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 22:31 #1004320
Pig?
Metaphysician Undercover July 31, 2025 at 23:20 #1004326
Reply to Shawn

Have you seen the little piggies
Crawling in the dirt?
And for all the little piggies
Life is getting worse,
Always having dirt to play around in

Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts?
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt,
Always have clean shirts to play around in

In their styes with all their backing
They don't care what goes on around
In their eyes there's something lacking
What they need's a damn good whacking

Everywhere there's lots of piggies
Living piggy lives
You can see them out for dinner
With their piggy wives
Clutching forks and knives to eat the bacon

Symbolism in Georgie's lyrics? I wonder what "damn good whacking" symbolizes. No one would consider whacking a pig. Maybe a little twist of the tale now and then?
Shawn July 31, 2025 at 23:28 #1004327
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, one does wonder what those pigs go through in their short lives.
Banno August 01, 2025 at 00:43 #1004338
Reply to Shawn
Here's the unused verse:

Everywhere there's lots of piggies
playing piggy pranks
you can see them on their trotters
at the piggy banks
paying piggy thanks
to the Pig Brother.


The Orwellian reference should be clear.

We might all do well to re-read Animal Farm, and reconsider any supposed porcine innocence.
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 01:13 #1004342
Reply to Banno

Well, banks have a necessary existence, don't they?

e 'to the' (P*r*t) is a pretty big part of what makes the world go round and round. Ya or nay?
Banno August 01, 2025 at 01:17 #1004343
Quoting Shawn
banks have a necessary existence, don't they?
...they showed their worth sooo clearly during the Global Financial Crisis...

More pigs in antique Pop Culture, in the same vein: Pigs - three different ones.
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 01:22 #1004345
Reply to Banno

Yes, I've heard that song. Well, I don't know whether you believe more in all the money being handled by any government (maybe Switzerland got things right) but it seems to me that banks are very concerned about stability in the world. Not even the UN can ensure as much stability as banks do.
Banno August 01, 2025 at 01:35 #1004346
Quoting Shawn
Yes, I've heard that song.


Quoting Shawn
it seems to me that banks are very concerned about stability in the world

Ever listened to the next song on the album? Might be worth it, given your response.

It's called "Sheep". Goes like this...


The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by
With bright knives he releaseth my soul
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places
He converteth me to lamb cutlets
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger


Hanover August 01, 2025 at 02:14 #1004349
And how could we forget:
Banno August 01, 2025 at 02:17 #1004350
Reply to Hanover You're a bit slow today. Hangover?
Banno August 01, 2025 at 02:31 #1004352
Noticing the bass in both those songs. Waters is pretty accomplished. Bit of a prick, of course, but not a bad musician. He made sarcastic bass playing a thing, as the kids say. That little walking figure under “Hey you, Whitehouse…”



Shawn August 01, 2025 at 02:34 #1004353
Reply to Banno

Comfortably Numb was all it was about back then, eh? You'd be surprised at how Gen X, Y, nd Z, are so concerned with sobriety.
Banno August 01, 2025 at 02:35 #1004354
Quoting Shawn
Comfortably Numb was all it was about back then, eh?

I don't remember...
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 02:38 #1004356
Quoting Banno
I don't remember...


Ah, so to the new kids around and about, what would you do when confronted with The Wall? Nowadays everyone wants to be around Wall Street.
javi2541997 August 01, 2025 at 04:39 #1004359
What are you guys talking about?

Anyway, I wrote a short nursery rhyme because it was raining when I woke up.

Miss Rain Rainy.

Miss Rain Rainy
Your blonde hair shines
And your body is skiny.
You put salt on the cake
Instead of sugar, what a pity!

Miss Rain Rainy.
The shoes are red
And the pizza is cheesy.
The dogs are barking
And the crockery is messy.
It is time to be a better maiden,
Miss Rain Rainy!

Metaphysician Undercover August 01, 2025 at 11:02 #1004381
Quoting Banno
Ever listened to the next song on the album?


Nothing beats "Dogs", the best song on the album. Be sure to get stoned and listen with phones.
Dragged down by the stone!

And when you lose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone
And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone
Dragged down by the stone
Jamal August 01, 2025 at 11:08 #1004382
Reply to Banno

It might have been a scurrilous rumour but I heard Dave took on bass duties on Animals, at least in places.
Banno August 01, 2025 at 11:14 #1004383
Hanover August 01, 2025 at 11:27 #1004384
Quoting Banno
You're a bit slow today. Hangover?


Good morning
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 11:37 #1004385
I'm building a VPN service...

Banno August 01, 2025 at 11:43 #1004386
Reply to Hanover good night.
Hanover August 01, 2025 at 11:56 #1004387
Quoting javi2541997
Anyway, I wrote a short nursery rhyme because it was raining when I woke up.


The lightning knocked out my air conditioner last night, but I fixed it by pushing all the buttons over and over.
javi2541997 August 01, 2025 at 11:56 #1004388
Quoting Shawn
I'm building a VPN service...


V... (?)

PIG

N... (?).
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 12:04 #1004389
Shawn August 01, 2025 at 12:08 #1004390
SoftEther has some amazing encryption so it might be a really simple task of uploading it onto some hosting servers with the proper configuration. I was actually thinking of a screen grab of a host in a browser with keystrokes being able to be inputted into the screen grab from the host. Mitigates the need for robust encryption. Nothing fancy or anything.
Hanover August 02, 2025 at 11:39 #1004558
Reply to Shawn Whatever super secure brickwall firewall interceptor iron curtain program you make is fine, but the real question is what to name your software. I went ahead and created you a name and logo. Send me whatever royalties you think fair.

User image



Hanover August 02, 2025 at 12:00 #1004560
@T Clark Another idea:User image
Shawn August 02, 2025 at 21:15 #1004645
Reply to Hanover

Hardly any money is made on some of the best configuration you can imagine through SoftEther's software. That's just the way the Japanese do it. I actually recommend using SoftEther's software for all of your needs.

https://ja.softether.org/

Regarding doing it yourself, I think that you can set up with rudimentary knowledge their software on a VPS/VPN network and configure their encryption to a higher standard for most users.
frank August 02, 2025 at 21:58 #1004650
Waking from a dream.

Rising to the surface as a sun, exhaling streams of light

Making the world

Is a loveless job
T Clark August 02, 2025 at 22:08 #1004652
Quoting Hanover
Another idea:


“We will not brook failure!”
L'éléphant August 03, 2025 at 02:10 #1004673
Quoting javi2541997
L'éléphant -- was he French or Canadian? Nice guy. We had deep conversations each other about aesthetics.

I'm back. Sorta.
Thanks for the mention. Good to see you here.
Outlander August 03, 2025 at 02:13 #1004674
Quoting L'éléphant
I'm back. Sorta.


And after five months! I thought you were dead. Almost had me worried, really.

No matter. You're back "sorta", and that's all that counts. :smile:
L'éléphant August 03, 2025 at 02:15 #1004676
Reply to Outlander
Well, I was dead. You can't get any better excuse than that!
Another member in your spirit that's still here and good to see you, O.
Outlander August 03, 2025 at 02:22 #1004678
Quoting L'éléphant
Well, I was dead. You can't get any better excuse than that!


Interesting.. very interesting! One naturally has a million questions but would never wish to intrude upon nor assume your disposition to share such surely intimate details.

I mean, forgive me, that was a bit presumptuous. Other than, those who who have the blessing (or curse, in this world, might it be?) of ability to think deeply, deeper than those around them consider normal, have a tendency to, shall we say, overthink. To the level of distress. But no matter. Never you mind any of that for now. Let us celebrate your triumphant (I sense room for a slight, possible pun) return!

I ordered a pizza the other day, a good half of which remains in my fridge that I will likely be enjoying quite shortly, lest it turn to degradation. You may have some! (symbolically, of course)

[hide="Reveal"]User image[/hide]
L'éléphant August 03, 2025 at 02:33 #1004681
Reply to Outlander
Lord Jesus!Quoting Outlander
Let us celebrate your triumphant (I sense room for a slight, possible pun) return!

You can say that again!


Quoting Outlander
I ordered a pizza the other day, a good half of which remains in my fridge that I will likely be enjoying quite shortly, lest it turn to degradation. You may have some! (symbolically, of course)


It has a swagger of a pizza! I will imagine that I have half of it.
Thank you!
javi2541997 August 03, 2025 at 04:30 #1004689
Reply to L'éléphant I knew you would be back sooner or later. :cool:
L'éléphant August 03, 2025 at 04:34 #1004690
Quoting javi2541997
I knew you would be back sooner or later. :cool:

Of course!
Shawn August 03, 2025 at 04:43 #1004692
Pig?
javi2541997 August 03, 2025 at 07:18 #1004706
Grasshoppers or crickets?

Jamal August 03, 2025 at 07:42 #1004709
Reply to javi2541997

Do we have to choose?
javi2541997 August 03, 2025 at 07:56 #1004710
Reply to Jamal Yes.

It is well known that grasshoppers and crickets don't get along in the same swamp or tree.

Well, I honestly don't know if that's true. It is just a soap opera speculation.
Metaphysician Undercover August 03, 2025 at 11:32 #1004725
Count the number of times a cricket chirps in a minute, divide by 4, and add 40 to determine the temperature in Fahrenheit. That's a soap opera law of physics. Sexual activity may distract the cricket from its true purpose of determining the temperature, giving you a false reading. But evolution has been good to us, and females seem to be most attracted to those who can best maintain the correct time signature.
Hanover August 03, 2025 at 11:38 #1004726
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Count the number of times a cricket chirps in a minute, divide by 4, and add 40 to determine the temperature in Fahrenheit


Just did your math. Once again, it's 40 degrees here.
Outlander August 03, 2025 at 11:38 #1004727
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Count the number of times a cricket chirps in a minute, divide by 4, and add 40 to determine the temperature in Fahrenheit.


I wonder how whoever figured that out did so. Like, I'm imagining there being some funny, feelgood story that went along with it. There probably isn't. But it's certainly curious, regardless. Meh. People must've been bored back then in the past. No TikTok to watch or AI to create logos for fictitious entities and such, after all.
Metaphysician Undercover August 03, 2025 at 11:44 #1004729
Quoting Hanover
Just did your math. Once again, it's 40 degrees here.


Well, the formula does assume that you find a cricket.
Hanover August 03, 2025 at 11:47 #1004730
Grasshoppers and crickets are closely related, but are not closely related to the cicada, which makes its racket by buzzing its abdomen.

When grasshoppers swarm in large numbers, they are referred to as locust. Typically locusts arrive just prior to the slaying of the first born.
javi2541997 August 03, 2025 at 11:57 #1004733
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
That's a soap opera law of physics.


I knew you would get it. :wink:

Furthermore, the onomatopoeia of the crickets is *chirp* *chirp* *chirp* *chirp*

But some folks would argue that it is *buzzz buzzz*, actually.
Shawn August 03, 2025 at 12:54 #1004740
Pig?
Hanover August 03, 2025 at 13:12 #1004742
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Well, the formula does assume that you find a cricket.


Formula prolly only works within certain parameters.
DifferentiatingEgg August 03, 2025 at 13:19 #1004747
Bellini Bliss Bubly is living rent free in my advertising space... Yum!
Outlander August 03, 2025 at 13:28 #1004749
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Bellini Bliss Bubly is living rent free in my advertising space... Yum!


Weird. Just this morning, not two hours ago, I, irregularly and in a break from my regular ritual, felt unusual and so grabbed a long ignored "Sparkling Ice Black Cherry", which is also a sparkling water. Are you sure you're who you say you are? Are we entangled in some sort of quantum symbiosis or cosmic dance? :chin:

Reality gets stranger by the day around these parts.
DifferentiatingEgg August 03, 2025 at 13:29 #1004750
Reply to Outlander Did you feel that tickle just now? :wink:
Metaphysician Undercover August 03, 2025 at 13:33 #1004752
Quoting Hanover
Formula prolly only works within certain parameters.


Actually, I just looked up the official formula, and you add the number of chirps per minutes to 40, before dividing by 4. So, put your winter coat on!
DifferentiatingEgg August 03, 2025 at 14:42 #1004762
I think I'll try falling asleep to Julian Jaynes... his style is seductive.
Moliere August 03, 2025 at 19:08 #1004813
Quoting Hanover
My interest really relates to biblical interpretations, which allows me to avoid the absurdities of the bible but instead to reinterpret it under a hermeneutic that requires it be right, which, let's be honest, that's what most of them are. I'll call it reverential hermeneutics.


Heh, fair.

I don't mind reverential hermeneutics. Especially when it comes to Kant, and the other guy I like.
Moliere August 03, 2025 at 19:10 #1004814
Reply to Hanover That'd be a bit hot in degrees C, but I imagine at this time of year not too far off at 1400
T Clark August 03, 2025 at 20:05 #1004823
@Hanover

Quoting T Clark
“We will not brook failure!”


This is better - We will brook no failure.
T Clark August 03, 2025 at 20:09 #1004825
Quoting javi2541997
It is well known that grasshoppers and crickets don't get along in the same swamp or tree.


I generally associate crickets with evening and night while I'm more used to seeing grasshoppers during the day. Do they ever even meet?
javi2541997 August 03, 2025 at 20:24 #1004828
Quoting T Clark
Do they ever even meet?


In my fantastic fable, absolutely. :cool:
Hanover August 03, 2025 at 23:00 #1004847
Quoting Moliere
I don't mind reverential hermeneutics. Especially when it comes to Kant, and the other guy I like.


Analytic philosophy simply and fundamentally holds that language is limited to publicly observable representations, and hermeneutics then offers a method of interpreting those representations by delving into the underlying assumptions of the language being interpreted.

It's disappointingly eliminative in that it leaves unanswered the only interesting questions, particularly those of internal consciousness and instead just finds empirical substitutes from which to infer meaning.

So, yeah, I'm reading a book on hermeneutics now, so you've got to hear me think out loud.

Anyway, there can't be a private language because aloneness is a meaningless atheistic construct. It's not just linguistically impossible. It's metaphysically impossible. No one walks alone.
Banno August 04, 2025 at 00:59 #1004864
Quoting Hanover
Analytic philosophy simply and fundamentally holds that language is limited to publicly observable representations...User image





Metaphysician Undercover August 04, 2025 at 01:48 #1004874
Reply to Banno
Preparing for some orthodontistry? I promise to keep my mouth shut from now on.

Banno August 04, 2025 at 02:07 #1004878
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Pointy tools commonly used to make and repair shoes. Rhymes with...
javi2541997 August 04, 2025 at 03:52 #1004887
Quoting Banno
Rhymes with...


Philosophy...

Fundamentally...

Publicly...

Simply...

:chin:
BC August 04, 2025 at 04:08 #1004889
Reply to javi2541997 Reply to Banno ball; bawl; brawl; call; crawl; fall; gall; gaul; haul; maul; Paul; pall, tall; trawl, ya'll

Some words might or might not rhyme with 'awl', depending on where the speaker is from.
BC August 04, 2025 at 04:10 #1004890
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Preparing for some orthodontistry


That's what I wondered.
javi2541997 August 04, 2025 at 04:15 #1004891
Quoting BC
Some words might or might not rhyme with 'awl', depending on where the speaker is from.


However, I find that all of these words rhyme to me. Am I missing something?
Banno August 04, 2025 at 05:03 #1004898
Quoting BC
…depending on where the speaker is from.

The east end of London, perhaps.
Hanover August 04, 2025 at 11:19 #1004940
Quoting Banno
Pointy tools commonly used to make and repair shoes. Rhymes with...


I mean clearly that is a stitching apparatus, and, being Australian, you are obviously rhyming it with "aboriginal with a platypus," but I'm not sure I fully get your drift.

Ohhhh I get it now!
Metaphysician Undercover August 04, 2025 at 11:26 #1004942
This is not a drill!
Outlander August 04, 2025 at 11:47 #1004944
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
This is not a drill!


So, it may be, from the widely encompassing possibility you've allowed, a mandrill!

User image

As you may or may not know, they are some sort of near alien-like primate, defying and basically disproving all sort of traditional evolution-based theory with their very existence. No biologist can explain how they evolved to appear such as they are without glossy "run around", as I call it. Something a few posters here are experts in.
Moliere August 04, 2025 at 13:13 #1004947
Quoting Hanover
Anyway, there can't be a private language because aloneness is a meaningless atheistic construct. It's not just linguistically impossible. It's metaphysically impossible. No one walks alone.


I think I'd rather say that insofar that one expresses that they are alone then already they have inherited something from others in the strict sense -- but then given that "alone" has a use in our communities I imagine that it's not an atheistic construct at all, only something which we can understand together. To be alone is to be without friends, family, or connection -- but that would only be recognized as an absence if there was something that ought be present. Rather than aloneness coming from a belief in humanity being born from soup on a rock it seems more likely that the notion of being abandoned to this rock is more of a theistic notion in the light of what the world looks like: like something should be there that isn't.

We still have one another, of course, but it's sometimes a poor substitute.
Hanover August 04, 2025 at 14:39 #1004958
Quoting Moliere
To be alone is to be without friends, family, or connection -- but that would only be recognized as an absence if there was something that ought be present.


I was making a theistic comment that we are never alone. We are always accompanied, which means my thoughts in my head are always shared.

But, yes, I know we can feel alone. That can be the case whether we are in fact alone or not, even sometimes when we are in the presence of those who care about us. Sometimes we're wrong, but of course that doesn't make the feeling any less difficult.
javi2541997 August 04, 2025 at 17:21 #1004982
40°C in Madrid. It is hot, but only where the sunlight is reflected. I enter a SuperSol store looking for a cold drink. In the stand of cold products, there are some yellow drinks which say: UP!, +1, LEMON AND WATER. STAY HYDRATED. I bought two, and then I sat on a bench in the local park. There isn't anyone but just a girl with her dog, giving water to it from a public fountain. I smile and say: "damn, all of us need to stay hydrated in this heatwave. The lemon drink is right." :smile:
Hanover August 04, 2025 at 18:28 #1004995
Reply to javi2541997 It's 65 here (18 C), which is chilly for the summer, owing to the days of rain. My dogs like going outside now that it's cooling down. My cat still sleeps on her heating pad, kept perfectly warmed at all times, never having to spend a moment in discomfort. She still complains though.
javi2541997 August 04, 2025 at 21:00 #1005026
Quoting Hanover
It's 65 here (18 C), which is chilly for the summer, owing to the days of rain.


Yeah, this is the perfect weather. Chilly days and cozy animals and people! Nice!
Banno August 04, 2025 at 21:20 #1005032
Meanwhile, Dow nunder...
User image

Sir2u August 04, 2025 at 22:21 #1005043
Do snowplows in Australia have cool funny names like they do in other places?
T Clark August 04, 2025 at 22:29 #1005045
Quoting Sir2u
Do snowplows in Australia have cool funny names like they do in other places?


They’re all called Matilda.
Banno August 04, 2025 at 22:52 #1005048
Reply to Sir2u Snowploughs? What'r they?
Moliere August 04, 2025 at 22:55 #1005049
Reply to Banno Can't deny I prefer my circumstances -- ice and snow are pretty to look at, but horrible to drive through.
Moliere August 04, 2025 at 22:56 #1005050
Quoting Hanover
I was making a theistic comment that we are never alone. We are always accompanied, which means my thoughts in my head are always shared.


I was inverting your meaning :) -- We are never alone, but not in the sense of a God sharing thoughts; and God doesn't even have an absence, on the atheistic viewpoint, so there is nothing to feel disconnected from: other people, as irritating as they are, are enough to bring meaning to life.
Moliere August 04, 2025 at 23:16 #1005055
Reply to Banno @Hanover -- on the topic of analytic philosophy I think the notion of "clean tools" is in your favor. In some sense this is philosophy recognizing its limits, including matters of man's consciousness and purpose and meaning, not out of a desire to stop but out of a desire to have clean enough tools that we might progress in some way that's meaningful.
DifferentiatingEgg August 06, 2025 at 07:19 #1005252
Through the triangulation of Nietzsche, Wittgenstein and Clément Rosset, I've grown to underatand that: music is the purest form of affirmation, because it transcendence the representational without escaping the real.

Witty describes music as a proposition which means it can be translated across systems. Nietzsche is against systematized doctrine for life affirmation and it is also one of the reasons he wrote his first book which details the birth of tragedy out of the spirit of music (which arose out of the heights of the dual orbit of the Apollonian and Dionysian combined, and commited suicide through Apollonian reason being crowned king, yet that started the decline of Greek culture) while Rosset argues that Joy is musical in nature which brings us back to Nietzsche Gay Science, which is his knowledge of Gaiety which is intrinsically musical.
javi2541997 August 06, 2025 at 12:32 #1005272
Lentils and corn are an excellent tandem! You have to try them with salad! Yummy! :yum:
unenlightened August 06, 2025 at 13:56 #1005278
I probably should put this in the "woke" thread, but they don't deserve it so fuck 'em.

Banno August 06, 2025 at 21:16 #1005323
Thanks for sharing this.

Quoting unenlightened
they don't deserve it

Yeah, that thread is an odd animal. Not sure what is going on there.
Banno August 06, 2025 at 21:21 #1005324
Quoting javi2541997
Lentils and corn are an excellent tandem!


And good for 'regularity'.

javi2541997 August 06, 2025 at 21:53 #1005327
Reply to Banno Yeah, whatsoever.

I had crab for dinner. It is delicious when it is mixed with ali-oli or mayonnaise. I guess this dish can be tagged in the "out of the regularity" vibe. Thus, exceptionality.
Banno August 06, 2025 at 22:04 #1005329
Reply to javi2541997 Shellfish are very popular here, especially prawns. I'd prefer a good piece of fish. Crab is good but generally too much fiddling to make it worth the while - fine if some else does the work.

Agree completely with the use of aioli on sea food. Much better than tartare.

In a pinch I'll mix chilli jam with Kewpie mayonnaise.
praxis August 06, 2025 at 22:12 #1005332
Reply to unenlightened

That deserves a Paul Hollywood handshake.

Thanks for posting it. After reading the woke thread I was starting to feel like wokeness is the worst thing since the bubonic plague.
Banno August 06, 2025 at 22:29 #1005339
Reply to praxis

Proud to Be Woke: Why I Refuse to Apologise

There's plenty of similar stuff around. A book by a comedian might not be an ideal start to a philosophy thread. I don't mind Doyle when he's doing his day job. The double irony of Titania McGrath is lost on many. Might be a British thing. Cultural. :wink:
Hanover August 06, 2025 at 22:40 #1005343
It's not entirely what woke means, except as a kinship identifier. If I say I'm woke, I'll be friends with other people who say they're woke, if not, not.

Let me try it:

I'm woke and proud!
Woke people are morons!

Since I'm not clear, best to steer clear of me.
Banno August 06, 2025 at 22:46 #1005344
Incidentally, since selfish and Reply to unenlightened came up together, again, I'd like, again, to thank Un for what is in my humble opinion the funniest joke on the history of the Forums; his brilliant "Conchiousness explained"; now perhaps lost to time.

Thank you again.

Banno August 06, 2025 at 22:49 #1005346
Reply to praxis Seems we may just have spread the infection to the Shoutbox. My apologies, for my part, in advance.
praxis August 07, 2025 at 01:57 #1005404
Reply to Banno

Titania would kill in the woke thread. :lol:
Banno August 07, 2025 at 02:03 #1005408
Reply to praxis They would take her at face value, which might be quite amusing.

I think the challenge to reconsider would be missed.
Banno August 07, 2025 at 06:52 #1005443
I'm nursing a head cold, so supping lemon tea. Juice of a whole lemon, and a spoon of Beachworth Buckwheat honey. Extraordinary stuff, the honey, almost black with an oddly biter aftertaste.


User image
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 07:17 #1005447
Quoting Banno
I'm nursing a head cold, so supping lemon tea. Juice of a whole lemon, and a spoon of Beachworth Buckwheat honey. Extraordinary stuff, the honey, almost black with an oddly biter aftertaste.


Get well soon, Banno!

I would like to cook sopa de cocido for you. It is energetic, powerful and tasty. Everything you need to get over the head cold!

User image
Banno August 07, 2025 at 07:29 #1005448
Looks good. A bit like good old chicken broth? Looks a good deal heartier.

Thanks!
Shawn August 07, 2025 at 09:30 #1005462
Pig?
Banno August 07, 2025 at 10:11 #1005465
Quoting Shawn
Pig?

From the recipes I can see on line, yes, but also beef, mutton and chicken.

The image provided looks to be more rice, with milk, and quite different to the recipes I found.

No doubt Reply to javi2541997 can help.

Banno August 07, 2025 at 10:14 #1005466
Maybe pasta?

https://lareiras.gal/es/recipe/sopa-de-cocido/
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 10:30 #1005468
Reply to Banno If noodles count as pasta, yes.

The main ingredient of sopa de cocido is the broth, and this is made of pork, chicken, meat and mutton.

Then, you boil the broth with the noodles. :yum:
Banno August 07, 2025 at 10:34 #1005469
Reply to javi2541997

We had Pho for dinner - chicken with extra chicken...
User image

Sluuurp, slllurp....
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 10:39 #1005470
Reply to Banno Is that spring onion? I love spring onions!
Banno August 07, 2025 at 10:43 #1005471
Indeed.

javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 12:21 #1005480
I heard from some folks that "soup" is a meal of poor or working-class people. I can't disagree more! Soup is one of the best dishes ever, and you can eat it in cold and hot days. According to Wikipedia, soup (the basic recipe) was invented in Hungary by a great Hungarian mate. Thanks, Hungarian Empire for everything!
unenlightened August 07, 2025 at 14:24 #1005493
Reply to Sir2u Let's try and keep religion out of the shout box, OK?
Shawn August 07, 2025 at 14:50 #1005496
Reply to unenlightened

Do you by chance have a pig?
unenlightened August 07, 2025 at 15:03 #1005499
Reply to Shawn I used to have a couple. We let them roam the forest on weekdays, and called them home for supper. But at weekends they had to stay at home because the locals used to hunt their cousins the wild boar, and they would shoot anything bigger than a flea that moved. By and large, I find them more friendly and polite than humans or goats. The latter are particularly condescending.
Shawn August 07, 2025 at 15:06 #1005500
Reply to unenlightened

Ah lucky man. I enjoy their compassionate attitude that they are known for. They particularly well respond to calling them "big". It delights them more than any other word.

Cheers.
Jamal August 07, 2025 at 18:05 #1005527
Quoting javi2541997
I heard from some folks that "soup" is a meal of poor or working-class people. I can't disagree more! Soup is one of the best dishes ever, and you can eat it in cold and hot days.


This sentence evinces a deep misunderstanding. You seem to think that a traditional meal for working-class people is inherently not a good meal, but the opposite is the case. Soups and stews are indeed some of the best dishes ever, and they are working-class and peasant food. You only show your snobbery in thinking that poor/working-class food = bad food. Poor people love food too.
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 18:24 #1005530
Reply to Jamal When did I say that peasant or working-class food is bad? I think you totally misunderstood what I tried to say; what it is is actually the opposite.
Jamal August 07, 2025 at 18:32 #1005532
Reply to javi2541997

OK, good point. I misunderstood, not totally but slightly and crucially.
Jamal August 07, 2025 at 18:33 #1005534
To be fair though, your post was ambiguous.
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 18:43 #1005536
Quoting Jamal
To be fair though, your post was ambiguous.


Yes, I agree. I reread my post, and it seems that I consider soup as low food because it is a classic meal of peasants and working-class people. But no, that's not what I wanted to say. My point is that although some people show snobbery towards those dishes, I believe they are very good.

Furthermore, the gastronomy of Spain is basically food of peasants and working-class families. Now, paella seems modern, but it is rice mixed with seafood (and other ingredients). Madrid dishes are also very working-class-like: chorizo, bravas, cocido, callos...
Jamal August 07, 2025 at 18:48 #1005537
Quoting javi2541997
Yes, I agree. I reread my post, and it seems that I consider soup as low food because it is a classic meal of peasants and working-class people. But no, that's not what I wanted to say. My point is that although some people show snobbery towards those dishes, I believe they are very good.


Yes, I see it now, and I agree.

Quoting javi2541997
Furthermore, the gastronomy of Spain is basically food of peasants and working-class families. Now, paella seems modern, but it is rice mixed with seafood (and other ingredients). Madrid dishes are also very working-class-like: chorizo, bravas, cocido, callos...


I discovered that the most traditional paella in Valencia is made not with seafood but with rabbit and chicken. That's the one I like.

Don't get me wrong, I do like seafood, but in a paella, not so much.
javi2541997 August 07, 2025 at 19:23 #1005548
Quoting Jamal
I discovered that the most traditional paella in Valencia is made not with seafood but with rabbit and chicken. That's the one I like.

Don't get me wrong, I do like seafood, but in a paella, not so much.


Exactly, and that's also the one I eat with my family. We just call it "arroz con..." but not paella. For unknown reasons, paella ended up having a better acceptance amongst tourists.

I am glad that you prefer the one with the rabbit and chicken.
Jamal August 07, 2025 at 19:27 #1005549
Quoting javi2541997
I am glad that you prefer the one with the rabbit and chicken.


I am glad I have finally gained your approval after all these years. :wink:
Shawn August 07, 2025 at 20:20 #1005555
Quoting Jamal
Poor people love food too.


Burger King and Carl's Jr. agree. I don't see any point to depriving the poor from a healthy life. California is different, though, as they want to move away from BK and the other stuff you see there.

Look, you eat that trash and the fat never goes away and your BO smells really bad.
BC August 08, 2025 at 00:15 #1005592
Kangaroos?

User image
Hanover August 08, 2025 at 00:26 #1005595
When I was young, my mother would take me to poor areas and we would bring soup to pour at their feet so they could aspire to the wealth of those who could spill soup.

This isn't to suggest I don't enjoy soup or working class meals as a rule. I just like spilling soup to awaken ambition.
T Clark August 08, 2025 at 00:26 #1005596
Quoting Shawn
Burger King and Carl's Jr. agree.


That’s a condescending way of looking at it and I don’t think it’s anything like what @Jamal is talking about.
Outlander August 08, 2025 at 00:31 #1005598
Quoting T Clark
That’s a condescending way of looking at it and I don’t think it’s anything like what Jamal is talking about.


Shawn is clearly a secret wealthy elite who we should be honored to even be in the same room with, let alone to communicate with us directly. Even if it is vis-a-vis the Shoutbox.

That said.

Quoting Shawn
the fat never goes away


:chin:

Like, cholesterol ending up lining the arteries kind of thing, you mean?
Sir2u August 08, 2025 at 01:03 #1005613
Reply to unenlightened :lol: :rofl: I am not a cultist of MPFC, I am just a fanatic.
Shawn August 08, 2025 at 01:22 #1005617
Reply to Outlander

After I started this thread, I kinda went quiet. It bothers me that the conspiracy was so vast.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15852/were-women-hurt-in-the-distant-past/p1
Outlander August 08, 2025 at 01:50 #1005624
Quoting Shawn
the conspiracy was so vast


Stupidity is not necessarily indicative of agency. Here, something more suited to the folk of this day and age:

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
- (a man who I'm sure lived a life of intense and constant frustration)
Shawn August 08, 2025 at 02:26 #1005632
Reply to Outlander

Harsh words. One day I'll send you a Bitcoin. Recently I mined quite a few and were opening a clearing house to sell them on a debit account in Bitcoin's. Transaction fees will be reasonable.
Outlander August 08, 2025 at 02:34 #1005634
Quoting Shawn
Harsh words


How so? Certainly not towards you! Merely implying that the conspiracy of (granted I'm assuming what agenda you imply it to be advancing or protecting) either exaggerating or downplaying the historical violence or systemic mistreatment of the individuals in question might not be a "manufactured insidiousness" but simply a result of human nature. Basically all I'm saying is: people tend to be stupid, especially historically. Which offers a natural explanation of all the horrors and depravity mankind inflicts upon itself. Just my opinion, at least. :sweat:
Shawn August 08, 2025 at 03:56 #1005638
Reply to Outlander

I'd argue, for one word to describe the issue. I really think it is conceitedness which comes off as ignorance or stupidity. Ya?
Outlander August 08, 2025 at 04:13 #1005639
Quoting Shawn
I really think it is conceitedness which comes off as ignorance or stupidity.


I'm sure it often does, very often, actually, yes!

Of course, what is "conceitedness" but the tangential cousin of arrogance? And what is arrogance but an elevated version of confidence, which, in and of itself, is little more than a natural result of a healthy and functioning brain and therefore person in a world that challenges one greatly. Sure, there are leaps that become not only inappropriate but non-conducive to a healthy and safe, not only life, but society, and conceitedness is certainly one of those insidious leaps the mind can make without one ever realizing it. Yes and absolutely. But one question remains. One, possibility of oversight, shall we say. Might you guess what that is? :wink:
Shawn August 08, 2025 at 06:06 #1005655
Quoting Outlander
But one question remains. One, possibility of oversight, shall we say. Might you guess what that is? :wink:


Absurdity. I can plead ignorance on this issue. :halo:

*pig begins wallowing*
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 16:36 #1005705
Quoting T Clark
That’s a condescending way of looking at it and I don’t think it’s anything like what Jamal is talking about.


Indeed, certainly not.

I had a Whopper last month in Kostroma. The Whopper at its best is quite a good burger, in structure, composition, and dimensions, certainly for me. The best Whopper I've ever had was at Málaga airport in 2018 a few days before I got married. We went back there on our Honeymoon to repeat the experience and although it was very good, you know how it is: second time is always worse.
T Clark August 08, 2025 at 16:40 #1005710
Quoting Jamal
I had a Whopper last month in Kostroma. The Whopper at its best is quite a good burger, in structure, composition, and dimensions, certainly for me. The best Whopper I've ever had was at Málaga airport in 2018 a few days before I got married. We went back there on our Honeymoon to repeat the experience and although it was very good, you know how it is: second time is always worse.


Every few months I go to either McDonald’s or Burger King and get out either a whopper or a big Mac. I’ve been eating at McDonald’s since hamburgers were $.13 and cheeseburgers were $.15.
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 16:48 #1005715
Reply to T Clark

Did you know that many Brits called them "beefburgers", because they're under the mistaken impression that the "ham" refers to ham, and since they're beef, not ham, they think they shouldn't be called "hamburgers"?

As I understand it it's about Hamburg, the city.
javi2541997 August 08, 2025 at 17:01 #1005719
Quoting Jamal
The best Whopper I've ever had was at Málaga airport in 2018 a few days before I got married. We went back there on our Honeymoon to repeat the experience and although it was very good, you know how it is: second time is always worse


Wait! You had your honeymoon in my country! Wow, you must like Spain a lot.
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 17:09 #1005722
Reply to javi2541997

Yep! The honeymoon consisted of driving around Andalusia for three weeks at the end of September 2018. It was great, even aside from the Burger King at Malaga airport.

But there were other factors. I was living in Spain at the time, and my wife, being an oligarch, had a house there. We wanted to get married in Spain but the law said we had to be living there for 5 years prior to the wedding or something like that, so we chose Gibraltar, which requires you to spend only 24 hours there before you get married. And Gibraltar gave us the idea to go around Andalusia.
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 17:09 #1005723
My wife isn't really an oligarch.
javi2541997 August 08, 2025 at 17:26 #1005730
Reply to Jamal What a great honeymoon, indeed. When I was in Andalucía, I only visited Jaén, the least known location for tourists because it is very hot in summer and they lack a beach (like Córdoba, but this has amazing architecture that Jaén doesn't).

If you still visited Jaén, you were sure to be very hot even though it was September.
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 17:35 #1005731
Reply to javi2541997

I didn't go to Jaén but it was super-hot throughout our time in Andalusia. We were in Seville; some beautiful hotels and villages in the mountains; Ronda of course; Granada of course; El Torcal de Antequera, which was amazing; and the big cave at Nerja, which was also amazing. Unfortunately we didn't make it to Córdoba or Cádiz. Next time.

The food was very different from Denia. Better I'd say. Lots of high quality Iberian pork, and not expensive.
T Clark August 08, 2025 at 17:48 #1005734
Quoting Jamal
As I understand it it's about Hamburg, the city.


Yes, that's my understanding also, although I've never been confused about it. I don't know about in Europe but we also call hot dogs "Frankfurters." In case you don't know, a hot dog is a sausage made with finely ground beef or pork eaten on a bun with mustard but never catchup. Or catsup. Or katsup. Or. Or ketchup.
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 17:51 #1005735
Reply to T Clark

Hot dogs are the Wurst.
T Clark August 08, 2025 at 17:57 #1005737
Quoting Jamal
Hot dogs are the Wurst.


Ahem...
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 17:59 #1005738
Reply to T Clark

Thank you, I'm here all night.
javi2541997 August 08, 2025 at 18:18 #1005745
Quoting Jamal
Granada of course


My parents spent their honeymoon in Granada back in 1994. They always say it is the most beautiful city in Spain, even though they are proud madrileños!
Jamal August 08, 2025 at 18:23 #1005746
Reply to javi2541997

Before I went to Granada I read a scholarly book about the Alhambra. I didn't absorb or remember much of it, except one point: whereas traditional European palaces are designed to impress, to look good from the outside, Islamic palaces are made to be beautiful and luxurious inside, so the outer walls are left bare and featureless. I found this important to understanding the Alhambra.
javi2541997 August 08, 2025 at 19:13 #1005753
Quoting Jamal
I found this important to understanding the Alhambra.


:up: :up:
Hanover August 08, 2025 at 23:42 #1005807
Reply to Jamal In Lisbon, at the Palácio da Bolsa (the stock exchange building), they have a historic Arab room with this exquisite architecture. The tour guide explained how fancy it was and said it could be rented out for weddings, but it would cost a hefty $3,000.




hypericin August 09, 2025 at 01:04 #1005817
A liar, a traitor, a felon, a pedophile, and an imbecile walk into a bar.
Hanover August 09, 2025 at 01:07 #1005818
Quoting hypericin
1.8k
A liar, a traitor, a felon, a pedophile, and an imbecile walk into a bar.


Is this a single person?
Moliere August 09, 2025 at 01:26 #1005824
Reply to hypericin Reply to Hanover "This must be one person" is the first thought I had.
Banno August 09, 2025 at 01:35 #1005828
Reply to Moliere Should that be:
A President, a Liar, a Traitor, a Felon, a Pedophile, and an Imbecile walk into a Bar?
Moliere August 09, 2025 at 01:49 #1005830
T Clark August 09, 2025 at 01:53 #1005832
Quoting Banno
A President, a liar, a traitor, a felon, a pedophile, and an imbecile walk into a bar?


“President” isn’t capitalized unless it’s used with a specific person‘s name or in a title such as “President of the United States.” Or, of course, it’s the first word in a sentence
Banno August 09, 2025 at 01:55 #1005833
Reply to T Clark Like I care.

Edited, just for you.
Hanover August 09, 2025 at 01:58 #1005834
Quoting T Clark
President” isn’t capitalized unless it’s used with a specific person‘s name or in a title such as “President of the United States.” Or, of course, it’s the first word in a sentence


The Germans capitalize Everything. Maybe he's German. Or maybe he's a capitalist. That's the second wurst joke I've heard in a while. Wurst is Also German so that makes Sense.
Hanover August 09, 2025 at 02:01 #1005835
Lower case after the colon. Thoughts?
Banno August 09, 2025 at 02:12 #1005836
Quoting Hanover
Lower case after the colon.


There's something there about wurst being encased in colon... Can't quite...
Hanover August 09, 2025 at 02:19 #1005838
Reply to Banno Nice. The free association pun game is addictive.
Banno August 09, 2025 at 02:28 #1005839
Quoting Hanover
The free association pun game is addictive.


The wurst case is a colon.
Banno August 09, 2025 at 03:24 #1005847
Chat with Jesus...

:roll:


AI Jesus: Free with advertisements.
javi2541997 August 09, 2025 at 05:43 #1005861
Quoting Banno
AI Jesus: Free with advertisements.


A Divine Connection in Your Pocket.


¡Madre mía! :rofl: :rofl:
Jamal August 09, 2025 at 06:23 #1005865
Quoting javi2541997
A Divine Connection in Your Pocket.


Brilliant. More evidence that satire is now impossible.
T Clark August 09, 2025 at 18:14 #1005918
Quoting Hanover
Lower case after the colon. Thoughts?


I don’t use a colon very often, but I’ve had the same question about dashes. I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be lowercase, but it never feels right so I generally capitalize.
T Clark August 09, 2025 at 18:29 #1005920
This joke and these lyrics have always seemed very philosophical to me, although I don’t really know what principal they’re demonstrating.

A man walks into a coffee shop and says “I’d like a large coffee with no cream.” The woman behind the counter says “I’m sorry, sir. We’re all out of cream, You’ll have to have it with no milk.”


Crawlin' on my hands and knees
It'll be me not on the phone, a-begging let me come back home
And when your phone don't ring, it'll be me
Yes, when your phone don't ring, it'll be me...
javi2541997 August 09, 2025 at 18:59 #1005927
Quoting T Clark
A man walks into a coffee shop and says “I’d like a large coffee with no cream.” The woman behind the counter says “I’m sorry, sir. We’re all out of cream, You’ll have to have it with no milk.”


Philosophical or not, I belive it is a funny 'dad joke.'
Jamal August 09, 2025 at 19:04 #1005929
Quoting T Clark
although I don’t really know what principal they’re demonstrating.


Principle.
T Clark August 09, 2025 at 19:09 #1005931
Quoting Jamal
Principle


Voice to text
Jamal August 09, 2025 at 19:19 #1005933
Reply to T Clark

Okay, that's quite interesting.
T Clark August 09, 2025 at 19:27 #1005935
Quoting Jamal
Okay, that's quite interesting.


I thought so too. I would have expected it to use “principle” as its first choice. But I should have checked.
unenlightened August 09, 2025 at 20:41 #1005942
Quoting Jamal
quite interesting.


Wales where I reside is a Principality, because it has a Prince, who is the heir to the throne of the UK. Aren't we lucky!
Moliere August 09, 2025 at 21:38 #1005959
Reply to unenlightened As an Oossian -- no. To have to bare the weight of monarchy would be terrible!

Fascism might be wurst, tho, as food for thought.
Moliere August 09, 2025 at 21:40 #1005960
Reply to Banno I, for one, am glad to be building data centers across the world so that Christ can speak to us through the data networks, even as they increase the demand for energy so we continue to burn more coal -- how else are we to get studio ghibli pictures on demand?
Banno August 09, 2025 at 22:02 #1005966
Quoting T Clark
I don’t use a colon very often

Hmm. Explains a lot. Regularity is important.


Quoting T Clark
but I’ve had the same question about dashes.

More fibre might help.
Banno August 09, 2025 at 22:04 #1005967
Quoting T Clark
A man walks into a coffee shop and says “I’d like a large coffee with no cream.” The woman behind the counter says “I’m sorry, sir. We’re all out of cream, You’ll have to have it with no milk.”

Apocryphal has it that the gent in question was Sartre.
Hanover August 09, 2025 at 23:06 #1005976
Quoting T Clark
A man walks into a coffee shop and says “I’d like a large coffee with no cream.” The woman behind the counter says “I’m sorry, sir. We’re all out of cream, You’ll have to have it with no milk.”


I don't see where this is a joke as much as just an accommodating waitress. The man wanted some without and she was out of the without he wanted, so she properly offered the without she could provide.

Consider if there were an extra charge for the special accommodation of not providing cream. Should she have added the charge when he asked for no cream even though she had no cream to not give?

He would get the up charge where someone who didn't ask would not and would get an apology? How is that fair?

A man fell into a well because he couldn't see that well.

See, that's a good joke because no one knows what the second well even means. Yours wasn't a joke at all. It was just a feel good story about a hard working waitress making sure her guests enjoyed their coffee without.

T Clark August 09, 2025 at 23:21 #1005983
Quoting Hanover
A man fell into a well because he couldn't see that well.


Would it be better if it went - A man fell into a hole in the ground because he couldn’t see that well. Subtler.
Banno August 10, 2025 at 01:31 #1006020
Reply to Hanover Pick the lawyer.
Hanover August 10, 2025 at 02:11 #1006025
Quoting Banno
Pick the lawyer.


I object!
Outlander August 10, 2025 at 04:59 #1006034
Quoting Hanover
Consider if there were an extra charge for the special accommodation of not providing cream. Should she have added the charge when he asked for no cream even though she had no cream to not give?


This is actually interesting because when you order Taco Bell online, it gives you a customization option (presumably the same you find at the order window or inside counter) where you can choose the "level" of beef, and any other item in the taco. Standard amount of beef costs the normal price. Extra beef costs extra, more than the normal price. But guess what. Reduced (less or "easy" as they call it) or even NO beef costs... guess what. Wait for it. Normal price.

I feel we have a case here, noble Hanover. Perhaps I shall get a jump on it and found the new firm "Outlander, Outlander, & Outlander (and sometimes Hanover)." Yes, that's quite catchy. Has a nice ring to it.
javi2541997 August 10, 2025 at 05:13 #1006036
Breakfast is the best part of the day!
unenlightened August 10, 2025 at 10:46 #1006047
Quoting Outlander
"Outlander, Outlander, & Outlander (and sometimes Hanover)." Yes, that's quite catchy. Has a nice ring to it.


Hanover, Outlandish, and Weird. Lawyers to Philosophy. Have you suffered a contradiction that was not your fault? Unfairly deprived of meaning, or found your argument demolished?
Metaphysician Undercover August 11, 2025 at 01:34 #1006197
Quoting unenlightened
Unfairly deprived of meaning


Wouldn't that be God's fault?

How would these lawyers be proposing to solicit God?
Hanover August 11, 2025 at 03:24 #1006214
Here I explore two clean fuel options: (1) the spring powered vehicle, and (2) the weight driven vehicle, where a weight slowly descends and drives the car forward.

Both offer exciting opportunities for energy independence and pollution reduction.

1 - The springmobile

To match a single gallon of gasoline (? 132 MJ), you’d need a steel spring weighing over 100,000 kg (about 110 tons).. Assuming you'd like an equivalent to a 20 gallon vehicle, your spring weight would be 2,220 tons. A spring of this size at maximum tension will pose a safety risk, so the driver should wear safety goggles and a cup to protect his nuts in the event of catastrophic failure.

I would expect this machine to run quietly and smoothly, with the spring doing the hard labor while you enjoy the passing scenery.

2 - The weightdropmobile

To match the energy in 1 gallon of gas (~33 kWh), you’d need: 1,000 kg dropped from ~1,122 m (~3,680 ft), or 100,000 kg dropped from 11 m.

If my math is correct, I could get 2O gallons equivalent just by increasing the height of my 1,000 kg weightvand not increasing the weight, which means my 1000kg weight would need to be 14 miles in the air (the stratosphere).

Unlike the spring mobile, this vehicle poses no safety risks other than swinging cables. You should therefore wear heavy lineman gloves and some form of nut protection.

I would expect this vehicle to run smoothly, although it might be tipsy when leaning hard into corners.
javi2541997 August 11, 2025 at 12:08 #1006290
I am not shy nor embarrassed to admit that Starbucks cold cappuccino is pretty good. The fun fact is that I haven't actually bought it at Starbucks but in "Unide" (a franchise of supermarkets). I was thirsty, but I didn't want water, and I wasn't in the mood for drinking a cold beer. So, I said to myself: "hey why not a cold Starbucks one and look like a hipster for a couple of minutes?" Nice try... it was very tasty and good.
unenlightened August 11, 2025 at 13:14 #1006297
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
How would these lawyers be proposing to solicit God?


You should probably consult Hanover on this, but I believe there are specialists that they could delegate to serve formal prayers, which can be done anywhere, God being omni-present an' all. Write it on a piece of paper and stuff it into a crack in the wall - job done.
T Clark August 11, 2025 at 16:21 #1006323
Reply to Hanover
As amusing as you were post is, it is worth noting that elevated weights are sometimes used as energy storage media - obviously, not in cars. In some renewable energy facilities, electric motors are used to raise large weights on tracks. This energy can later be recovered by allowing the weight to roll down the track, running electric generators.
Hanover August 11, 2025 at 18:27 #1006351
Quoting T Clark
As amusing as you were post is, it is worth noting that elevated weights are sometimes used as energy storage media - obviously, not in cars. In some renewable energy facilities, electric motors are used to raise large weights on tracks. This energy can later be recovered by allowing the weight to roll down the track, running electric generators.


I took drama appreciation in college so that I could get an A, and I learned there that the way they open curtains and lift large objects on the set is by putting weights on the ropes so they don't have to pull as hard. I imagined that might be the job for me one day, putting weights on ropes so the audience could watch a seemless performance of Death of a Salesman or whatnot and have no idea I was the one that made it happen.

Instead I got a B and became a philosophy major so I could get a moderator job.
BC August 11, 2025 at 18:31 #1006354
Reply to Hanover You didn't mention the minor problem of going under bridges with your falling-weight-driven car. So, maybe this would be most practical for crossing the Australian outback.

Do they have bridges in the Australian outback? Why would they? What's there that needs a bridge?

I like the idea of a wind-up car, but the weight of the spring does seem problematic.

How about rubber bands which would be conveniently stretched from your destination to your car.
Hanover August 11, 2025 at 18:40 #1006356
Quoting BC
You didn't mention the minor problem of going under bridges with your falling-weight-driven car. So, maybe this would be most practical for crossing the Australian outback.


Thank you for this feedback because as you bring things up I realize it might make sense to bring in other minds to the project because there are things I apparently hadn't considered.

As a child, I always enjoyed the draw bridge that connected the islands off the coast of Georgia. They've since removed that bridge in favor of a larger suspension bridge. I will call around and see where they've stored that draw bridge and perhaps it can be recycled. What I envision is that the draw bridge be hauled behind the dropweightmobile and that it be put immediately in front of the vehicle as needed. Conceptually something seems off, but I can't put my finger on it. It reminds me of the guy who carried around a car door so that he could roll down the window when he got hot.

Quoting BC
I like the idea of a wind-up car, but the weight of the spring does seem problematic.


How so?

Quoting BC
How about rubber bands which would be conveniently stretched from your destination to your car.


That is a good idea, but I have far fewer rubberbands since they stopped delivering them around my newspapers. I used to get a new rubberband daily, but now my supply has run dry. If we could figure out a way to have those delivered like they use to, maybe that would work.




Hanover August 12, 2025 at 01:32 #1006493

Once I took my dad's manual typewriter apart as part of an exploratory surgery, and I couldn't get the springs back together so I rigged it up with rubber bands. He never used it again, so he never got to see my handiwork.

My explanation for taking it apart was I was going to say I was looking for where it kept its stories.

Banno August 12, 2025 at 01:37 #1006497
On a quick check @Hanover's physics looks very optimistic.

Banno August 12, 2025 at 10:01 #1006552
@Hanover, have you considered buttered cats?
Hanover August 12, 2025 at 10:24 #1006554
Quoting Banno
have you considered buttered cats?


Like asking if I've considered purple elephants, I guess now I have only because you mentioned it. I did look it up as well because I figured it wasn't just a random thought of yours to butter a cat.

This is an example for @Jack Cummins,'s thread on panpsychism, the toast providing a good example of a relentless will. It also provides an excellent way to power a car, with the perpetual motion created by two equally stubborn forces. I mean I like it, but if I have to feed the flipping spinning cat in the engine compartment connected to the camshaft, would I need to measure food cost against gas cost to see if cost efficient?
Banno August 12, 2025 at 21:22 #1006659
Reply to Hanover You could let the cat out when the engine is not in use. But you might have difficulty in encouraging it back. A larger cat will of course provide more angular momentum, so feeding is important. Do purple Elephants also always land on their feet? If so, they might be suitable for heavy vehicles.
Moliere August 12, 2025 at 21:40 #1006667
Reply to Hanover That was my once upon a time job, weights and all (and Death of a Salesman)

Reply to Hanover I like them in theory, but how are they in practice? Suppose one does not protect the nethers?
Moliere August 12, 2025 at 21:41 #1006668
Reply to Banno Only if they are elephcats
Banno August 12, 2025 at 21:45 #1006672
Reply to Moliere Then this calls for a breeding program...

Or maybe we could use CRISPR-Cas9 to copy the landing-on-feet gene into purple elephants.
Moliere August 12, 2025 at 21:47 #1006673
Reply to Banno Surely that's more humane, though as equally sure it would fail given the complexities between average creature ability, for lack of a better term, and gene modification -- sure we could do it, systematically even, but that... how... would be so much work that I'm afraid I don't see the value in giving these purple elephants the ability to land on their feet so well. Are we to use them in catapults or something?
Banno August 12, 2025 at 21:52 #1006675
Reply to Moliere Do I have to spell it out? We affix buttered toast on the back of the purple elephants and install them in large vehicles. Since purple elephants have been given the gene for always landing on their feet, and since buttered toast always lands butter-side-down, we can use the resulting angular momentum to power the vehicle.
Moliere August 12, 2025 at 21:54 #1006676
Reply to Banno :rofl:

Well, you did.

But, given all that, why not strap an elephant-mass sized amount of cats to the other side of the shaft? This whole CRISPR project is looking a little sus, purple elephants aside.
Banno August 12, 2025 at 22:01 #1006679
Reply to Moliere And how would you attach buttered toast to such an agglomeration? No, each cat must have it's own buttered toast. The purple elephants would save on all the gearing needed to combine the angular momentum of multiple cats.

Moliere August 12, 2025 at 22:02 #1006680
Reply to Banno :chin:

Much to consider here... I must run some models.....
Moliere August 12, 2025 at 23:28 #1006695
https://asteriskmag.com/issues/11/why-are-there-so-many-rationalist-cults

I found this an interesting read. Not because I believe there are rationalist cults that are so numerous that they demand an explanation, which is the stupid hook, but because the author describes conditions of what a dysfunctional group looks like when trying to organize together.

I've seen the dynamics described in that article in not-rationalist spaces. Moreso even, though it doesn't surprise me that the self-described rationalists who continue in that vein may have fallen into these traps.

The one thing I'd emphasize is that these traps aren't "rationalist" traps but something that gets at when a social group is functional or dysfunctional -- Not for all cases, but as a warning.

The part I agree with most is that groups with some purpose related to the world -- like living, not as some kind of "identity" but literally wanting to live in a place and grouping together with others to do so -- are the most functional. (my time living in a housing collective would count here)

I was thinking about anarchist and labor organizing along the way and noting how, yeah, that's what differentiates the "cult"-like designation the author is exploring: We join together for a common purpose, which can be irritating at times because humans are irritating to one another at times, but you get over it for the purpose you're there for. (Much like work, really)
Shawn August 13, 2025 at 00:08 #1006709
Pig?
Banno August 13, 2025 at 00:13 #1006713
Reply to Shawn Buttered pig?

User image
Shawn August 13, 2025 at 00:29 #1006715
Reply to Banno

Nah they're meant to be pets. For meat I recommend a woolly mammoth.
Nils Loc August 13, 2025 at 00:41 #1006726
Quoting Shawn
For meat I recommend a woolly mammoth.


It's not impossible.

"In 1984, a group of scientists, including paleontologist R. Dale Guthrie, ate a stew made from a 50,000-year-old mummified bison called Blue Babe." (Google AI)
Shawn August 13, 2025 at 00:46 #1006727
Quoting Nils Loc
It's not impossible.


Some people are trying to Jurassic out our appetite...
T Clark August 13, 2025 at 00:55 #1006728
Quoting Moliere
I found this an interesting read. Not because I believe there are rationalist cults that are so numerous that they demand an explanation, which is the stupid hook, but because the author describes conditions of what a dysfunctional group looks like when trying to organize together.


Thanks for the link. This was a really interesting article, although I wasn’t most taken by the discussion of dysfunctional groups. I had never heard of the rationalist movement at all so I was struck by the whole concept. it seems odd that this has never raised its head here on the forum before. At least I never saw it. It would seem like we would have members who were involved.
Hanover August 13, 2025 at 04:15 #1006755
This is my entry into the psychedelic beatnik meanderings contest:

While shoeless vagabonding in the Village following the war, I became lost in heady thoughts of meaninglesness, finding comfort only in the Cult crawls, shaving my head and going from tent to tent sampling the Kool Aids of each. I'd awake with the hung-over multi-colored lips only a Cult Dog would know.

I thank the buttered bread affixed to my back that forced me to land belly up each night when I landed unconscious in the endless strawberry field fever dream behind the tambourine apothecary that helped me sleep.

The scare of the morning people with their hardened shoes and clever walks would awaken me scurrying like a rat beneath the remaining shadows of the frozen limbs of the trees soon dying.

The wild eyed bar drifters would let out across my hidden path, laughing their clove breath above me saying something about me. That time a heaven blanket from the too young girl dropped to my naked feet saved me is never forgotten.


Shawn August 13, 2025 at 06:42 #1006767
If I ever hurt or offended anyone on this forum or the previous one, I would like to say, I am sorry.
Shawn August 13, 2025 at 06:50 #1006768
Recently I tried to do a lot of work on my American male character, and what I didn't like about it was getting angry to be cared for and being cared for for getting angry. Not joking.
Moliere August 13, 2025 at 13:07 #1006794
Quoting T Clark
This was a really interesting article, although I wasn’t most taken by the discussion of dysfunctional groups.


I was interested in that description from the practical angle: here are some dynamics that can go badly in any organization; i.e. I don't see these rationalists as special but rather running into the various problems that come with trying to build something new.



I had never heard of the rationalist movement at all so I was struck by the whole concept. it seems odd that this has never raised its head here on the forum before. At least I never saw it. It would seem like we would have members who were involved.


Once upon a time I checked out New Atheist, or Skeptic, stuff. I was turned off based on the politics -- they were all either liberal or libertarian -- so moved on with my life to something I cared more about. Apparently they're still kicking, though. I recall a secular church called "Oasis" that probably has roots in this phenomena, though.
frank August 13, 2025 at 23:29 #1006874
The Red Sea is actually blue.

User image
T Clark August 13, 2025 at 23:46 #1006875
Reply to frank
Yes, and the Gulf of America is actually the Gulf of Mexico.
Hanover August 14, 2025 at 01:36 #1006899
Quoting frank
The Red Sea is actually blue.


So, Exodus in its original Hebrew, referred to the parting of Yam Suf, the sea of reeds, describing perhaps a papyrus and reed filled shallow sea capable of parting.

Then along come the Greeks and they created the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) and they translated Yam Suf as Erythra Thalassa, which is Greek for Red Sea.

Why they did this, fuck only knows. Now modern folks link the modern Red Sea (a deep water sea with no reeds) to the Sea of Reeds that parted. This link is likely wrong

So, not only is the Red Sea not red, it didn't part. The Sea of Reeds parted, or so the Bible tells me so.
frank August 14, 2025 at 02:23 #1006910
Reply to Hanover
Are you saying Moses parted a small creek?
Hanover August 14, 2025 at 02:34 #1006913
Quoting frank
Are you saying Moses parted a small creek?


It was large enough to swallow up the Egyptians, so I'm thinking a marshy sort of sea, like in a delta region, where the blues is played, where sad never sounded so good one hard lick at a time.



javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 12:10 #1006995
@RussellA in Cyrillic alphabet. It is a post written by @Astorre

User image

It is interesting when other members – whose alphabet is not Latin – post here. For whatever reasons, the software of the forum doesn't translate or switch it in the current (Latin) alphabet.

It is not a problem! I think it is very awesome, indeed.
Astorre August 14, 2025 at 12:17 #1006999
Reply to javi2541997 :blush: sorry
javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 12:28 #1007001
Reply to Astorre Oh no! My alias doesn't show up in Cyrillic! :cry:
Astorre August 14, 2025 at 12:33 #1007004
Reply to ?????2541997 Is that better? It's not the forum's fault. I read in Cyrillic, quote, and it comes out like this. When I read in English and quote, it comes out as usual
javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 12:37 #1007006
Quoting Astorre
??????2541997 Is that better? It's not the forum's fault. I read in Cyrillic, quote, and it comes out like this. When I read in English and quote, it comes out as usual


Wow!!!! That's neat, mate. :up:

OK,I think I know how the beautiful world of letters and fonts works now.
Jamal August 14, 2025 at 12:38 #1007007
Reply to Astorre
Reply to javi2541997

Javi is pronounced more like ????.
Astorre August 14, 2025 at 12:40 #1007008
??????))
javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 12:43 #1007009
Reply to Jamal Reply to Astorre

Russian language and Cyrillic alphabet are very beautiful.

You can read the original version of Dostoevsky's works. I know this is what Jamal does every weekend, but he doesn't want to say it because he is a shy and humble boy.
Shawn August 14, 2025 at 12:48 #1007011
Beton, in Polish, means "cement."
Astorre August 14, 2025 at 12:50 #1007012
Reply to javi2541997 To be honest, I've been struggling with the translations. My English is not the best...

Reply to ??? In Russian, it is translated as "concrete"
javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 12:54 #1007015
Quoting Shawn
Beton, in Polish, means "cement."


Quoting Astorre
In Russian, it is translated as "concrete"


Wow, that really blew my mind.
Shawn August 14, 2025 at 13:11 #1007023
Reply to Astorre

Your translation is more accurate.
frank August 14, 2025 at 13:47 #1007033
Reply to Hanover
Ok, but Leadbelly wasn't really Delta blues, he was closer to Piedmont blues. Delta tends to have a hard driving beat derived from songs used to coordinate labor. Piedmont is more folksy and laid back, like this:



T Clark August 14, 2025 at 13:51 #1007035
Quoting frank
Are you saying Moses parted a small creek?


It’s my understanding that Moses just paid the tolls for the bridge. The pharaoh didn’t have the cash so he couldn’t cross.
RussellA August 14, 2025 at 14:39 #1007047
Quoting javi2541997
RussellA in Cyrillic alphabet.


Maybe now I can finally get to see St Petersburg using my new alias.
javi2541997 August 14, 2025 at 15:04 #1007055
Quoting RussellA
Maybe now I can finally get to see St Petersburg using my new alias.


Yeah. :cool:
Wayfarer August 15, 2025 at 05:02 #1007276
User image

Don't know whether to laugh, cry, or look the other way.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 05:18 #1007280
Reply to Wayfarer Damn. You poor bugger. Get a life. :grin:
Tom Storm August 15, 2025 at 05:19 #1007281
Reply to Wayfarer 24,000 of them trying to explain the blind spot of science to physicalists... :razz:
Wayfarer August 15, 2025 at 05:26 #1007282
Reply to Tom Storm Reply to BannoMy technical writing career seems to have come to an end, although I do have a profile up still. We've retired to a nice house but without lot of money to splash on travel. So I don't know whether to keep slashing a path through this particular lantana thicket, or whether I should find something else to do.

I do feel I'm learning something significant through all this. I've also learned a lot about many topics I didn't even know existed ten years ago. So I suppose, as far as social media and online activity is concerned, it's one of the least worst options.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 05:35 #1007285
Ok, so had to check that Reply to Wayfarer wasn't catching me up. post rates. The number of comments divided by the number of days since first post. I score 7.99 posts per day, Way scores 7.08. Tom scores only 6.28

Should be safe.



Wayfarer August 15, 2025 at 05:37 #1007286
You know what they say about empty vessels..... ;-)
Banno August 15, 2025 at 05:43 #1007287
Reply to Wayfarer Very true.
Tom Storm August 15, 2025 at 06:03 #1007291
Reply to Banno Well, even I managed 10k and I have no almost knowledge of philosophy…

Quoting Wayfarer
I do feel I'm learning something significant through all this. I've also learned a lot about many topics I didn't even know existed ten years ago.


I don’t doubt it. I’ve actually enlarged my views because of your very reasonable approach to philosophy here , I’ve greatly appreciated your clear prose and carefully stated arguments.

There’s clearly a real passion for learning and sharing ideas in you and that’s a good thing, Stick at it.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 06:12 #1007293
Reply to Tom Storm yeah, I quite agree. Excellent and original in both thought and prose. Quite an asset, is old Reply to Wayfarer.


Shame he’s wrong.
Wayfarer August 15, 2025 at 06:45 #1007295
Reply to Tom Storm Reply to Banno Aw shucks. And thanks.

But as i said the other day, I've also learned a ton of stuff interacting here. Not least because of disagreeing with intelligent interlocutors.
javi2541997 August 15, 2025 at 11:39 #1007331
El Bataraz:

User image
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 13:16 #1007342
Reply to Banno Expressing underlying currents of the will: dick measuring contests: something lacking.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 13:20 #1007344
Interesting that there's nothing on Generative Anthropology on this forum at all.
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 14:05 #1007355
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Interesting that there's nothing on Generative Anthropology on this forum at all.


My limited research on it shows a small but loyal following, but it mostly serves as philosophically thought provoking as opposed to it being scientifically provable.

Do you have support for its validity?
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 14:18 #1007360
Reply to Hanover Ah, the good old Scientific prejudice. Who cares about the "sacred event" wash out the mysticism and the method could show how, for example... Stoicism arrives on the scene at an intersection between an imperative culture and declarative culture as a deferral to declarative culture... but then itself becomes mostly declarative in future iterations in trend with the declarative culture of Plato becoming so widely subscribed to. Nietzsche for example argues against declarative stoicism, which is to say a strawman of the original form of stoicism. But not a strawman against what it has become.

And perhaps it's detailed as the "Sacred Event" due to the manner in which inspiration comes to us... seemingly out of nowhere, possessing us such that we can pour a book out in a few days or write a large essay in a few hours... as if we become the mouth piece of something more capable than what we're normally capable.

And of course those with the ever popular scientific prejudice will see such words and grimace out of some compulsion for their objective version of "the true." Like is often done with the symbolic language Jung employs. So they levy strawmans against him. A style of the strawman paradox Echogem brought up.
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 15:18 #1007371
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
the good old Scientific prejudice.


Don't call it "anthroplogy" if you have no desire to treat it as a science. If it's just a heuristic unsupportable in principle as a way to consider human evolution unique, then just say that.

I'm not a scientist, so your remarks are straw..

It's like saying me saying I'm a Creationist so I reject evolution because of the place it situates humans in the world and I don't like that and you saying what evidence is there for my Creation theory, and I explain how science is over-rated.

But this explains the limited discussion of generative anthropology here.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 15:22 #1007372
Reply to Hanover Your take is very limited to the term "science" I do agree. One doesn't need to be a scientist to hold scientific prejudice. Also, if you weren't aware Anthropology isn't exactly an exact "science." And your odd attempt at gatekeeping a term such as Anthropology, a social science, which means the study of humans/humanity, tells us your prejudice.

Understand that not all used language has to subscribe to your manual of translation. That's part of the point of Generative Anthropology...
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 15:41 #1007377
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg I see there is a debate within anthropology as to whether to make it a science or an interpretive scheme, with the interpretive scheme folks having gained some political steam as of late. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/science/10anthropology.html#:~:text=Anthropologists%20have%20been%20thrown%20into,focus%20on%20%E2%80%9Cpublic%20understanding.%E2%80%9D

Shame. Now the valid science they produce will be questioned as politics.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 15:48 #1007378
Reply to Hanover Prejudice isn't necessarily a bad thing... but also let me ask you... how ought we study language through the historical sense? Should we say it exists in a microcosm because it's not bound to the realm of scientific analysis in the sense as physics and chemistry?
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 15:59 #1007381
Quoting Wayfarer
I do feel I'm learning something significant through all this. I've also learned a lot about many topics I didn't even know existed ten years ago. So I suppose, as far as social media and online activity is concerned, it's one of the least worst options.


Beyond the specific philosophical content, what I find most satisfying about the forum is that my writing and arguing skills have improved dramatically over my time here. Also, my patience.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 16:29 #1007386
Quoting Hanover
I see there is a debate within anthropology as to whether to make it a science or an interpretive scheme, with the interpretive scheme folks having gained some political steam as of late.


It’s definitely a science. I think the only question is whether it’s good science or bad science. More accurately, is whether a particular piece of work is good science or bad science.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 16:43 #1007390
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Also, if you weren't aware Anthropology isn't exactly an exact "science." And your odd attempt at gatekeeping a term such as Anthropology, a social science, which means the study of humans/humanity, tells us your prejudice.


Social sciences are as much science as physics. The epistemology might be different in detail, but the issues that have to be addressed are the same.

Anthropology is the study of human societies and cultures and their development. It’s not the study of all aspects of humans/humanity.

It’s not gatekeeping to expect people to use words as they are commonly defined and understood.
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 17:08 #1007393
Quoting T Clark
It’s definitely a science.


That article challenges that. The official decision of the American Anthropological Association was to remove "science" from its mission statement.

"Anthropologists have been thrown into turmoil about the nature and future of their profession after a decision by the American Anthropological Association at its recent annual meeting to strip the word “science” from a statement of its long-range plan."
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 17:25 #1007396
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Prejudice isn't necessarily a bad thing... but also let me ask you... how ought we study language through the historical sense? Should we say it exists in a microcosm because it's not bound to the realm of scientific analysis in the sense as physics and chemistry?


I'm not suggesting the social sciences are not sciences because they aren't reducible to the hard sciences. My objection is any enterprise that suggests it's arriving at conclusions about the physical world without a specific methodology that includes testable hypotheses and taking some sort of measurement.

Anthropology apparently adhered to such a system until more recently when they arrived at turning it into whatever they've now done. I truly mean that's a shame because the social sciences are under attack currently as pseudo-scientific political correctness indoctrination, which isn't helped by admitting it's not really science.

Reading that article did cause me to lose respect for the enterprise.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 18:02 #1007399
Quoting Hanover
That article challenges that. The official decision of the American Anthropological Association was to remove "science" from its mission statement.


That’s bullshit. It’s bullshit when hard scientists say it and it’s bullshit when the American Anthropological Association says it. If you are studying human societies and cultures and their development you are doing social science. As I noted, some of it is good science and some of it is bad science. Perhaps that’s not what some anthropologists are doing anymore.
BC August 15, 2025 at 18:27 #1007402
Reply to T Clark Reply to Hanover Reply to DifferentiatingEgg

He attributed what he viewed as an attack on science to two influences within anthropology. One is that of so-called critical anthropologists, who see anthropology as an arm of colonialism and therefore something that should be done away with. The other is the postmodernist critique of the authority of science.


So this discussion was caused by ejecta from those two volcanoes of bullshit, 'critical theory' and 'postmodernism'. No surprise there.

I had hoped these diseases would go away, but they have become endemic infections.
unenlightened August 15, 2025 at 18:34 #1007404
Quoting BC
He attributed what he viewed as an attack on science to two influences within anthropology. One is that of so-called critical anthropologists, who see anthropology as an arm of colonialism and therefore something that should be done away with. The other is the postmodernist critique of the authority of science.

So this discussion was caused by ejecta from those two volcanoes of bullshit, 'critical theory' and 'postmodernism'. No surprise there.

I had hoped these diseases would go away, but they seem to have become endemic infections.


Measure is the thing of all mans.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:11 #1007405
Quoting T Clark
Social sciences are as much science as physics. The epistemology might be different in detail, but the issues that have to be addressed are the same.


No, they're not. Hanover simply doesn't appreciate good philology combined with psychology.

Quoting Hanover
I'm not suggesting the social sciences are not sciences because they aren't reducible to the hard sciences. My objection is any enterprise that suggests it's arriving at conclusions about the physical world without a specific methodology that includes testable hypotheses and taking some sort of measurement.


Again, how ought one study the historic use of language if not to detail its originary point in history, its use through history and how its use has changed through history to its use in modern day forms?

Of course, you can't answer that cause you have no science that replaces it. And again you show your prejudice: it's only true if it can be measured and verified... well how you feel about GA isn't true because it cannot be measured and verified... :cool: in fact you don't know much about yourself apparently at all? We cannot measure and verify it, and thus your truths are moot (according to your own truths).

Generative Anthropology is an intersection between Language, Psychology, and Philology. GA starts with the premise that humans are unique because of our capacity for symbolic representation. It hypothesizes an originary event where language, ritual, and social order emerge together.

Quoting BC
So this discussion was caused by ejecta from those two volcanoes of bullshit, 'critical theory' and 'postmodernism'. No surprise there.


Not quite. Language is psychical in nature. It exists first as a mental-social phenomenon.

Sounds, gestures, and written marks are carriers for something that exists psychically. A need for utterance. Language represents a psychological need for any specific utterance.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:26 #1007408
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
No, they're not.


Yes, they are. Science is:

the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.


The important parts of this are 1) it’s systematic and 2) it’s based on observation and evidence. It seems like maybe you have a different understanding of the meaning of the word “science” than how the word is correctly used.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:29 #1007409
Reply to T Clark Sorry you seem to be mistaken that all science is hard reducible. GA is a term for the intersection of philology and psychology.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:31 #1007410
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Again, how ought one study the historic use of language if not to detail its originary point in history, its use through history and how its use has changed through history to its use in modern day forms?


What evidence is there that there was an originary point - a single event where language was created? It seems unlikely to me, but I might be wrong. Again, what is the evidence? Given that language developed verbally long before it was written down, I don’t understand how they’re even could be definitive evidence, one way or the other. Even that, how can you base your entire theory on something that can’t be verified or falsified?
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:33 #1007411
Reply to T Clark who gives a damn about the originary point of language altogether, I said ignore that bs... fact is Language exists, and you can use GA to highlight when concepts arrive within language, as in our capacity is already there. I'm applying it not as an originary point of Language altogether, but rather when something becomes new within language... like in the example I gave: the concept of stoicism arrives much later than when our capacity for language does.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:37 #1007413
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Sorry you seem to be mistaken that all science is hard reducible.


Again, I think you have misunderstood what “science” means. It’s not what you want it to mean, it’s what the dictionary and common usage say it means. Is how scientist actually practice. There are many ways of knowing the world that are not science.

I’ll say this again - if it’s not a systematic method using observation and evidence to study the world, it’s not science. If it is that, it is science.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:39 #1007414
Quoting T Clark
Again, I think you have misunderstood what “science” means. It’s not what you want it to mean, it’s what the dictionary and common usage say it means. Is how scientist actually practice. There are many ways of knowing the world that are not science.


Well hate to break it to you kiddo philology and psychology are both sciences.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:40 #1007415
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Again, how ought one study the historic use of language if not to detail its originary point in history, its use through history and how its use has changed through history to its use in modern day forms?


I’m confused. You wrote:

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
who gives a damn about the originary point of language altogether, I said ignore that bs...



DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:42 #1007416
Reply to T Clark As in the originary point of the use of a word within language.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:43 #1007417
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Well hate to break it to you kiddo philology and psychology are both sciences.


I don’t remember saying they weren’t. Psychology definitely is. I don’t know enough about philology to say.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:43 #1007418
Reply to T Clark That's all GA is.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 19:43 #1007419
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
As in the originary point of the use of a word within language.


I don’t think we’re getting anywhere.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 19:48 #1007420
Quoting T Clark
I don’t think we’re getting anywhere.


Was language around before Stoicism, yes or no? If so, then why would my example from earlier be applied to Stoicism? BECAUSE... I'm not talking about the originary point of language, I'm talking about the originary point of words used after language already exists... Idgaf about Gans' hypothesis on the originary point of language... but the methodology is still worth applying to the originary point of words after the fact that language has already been established.

Attempting to find the originary point of language is like attempting to detail the beginning of time... we exist, idgaf how we got here... "God" "Primordial Soup" who gaf about that? Mostly a waste of time imo.

Language existed prehistory.

GA is useful for studying words through their HISTORICAL SENSE. Regardless of Gans prehistoric hypothesis...
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 20:01 #1007421
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg

As I said, we are not getting anywhere.
DifferentiatingEgg August 15, 2025 at 20:02 #1007422
Quoting T Clark
As I said, we are not getting anywhere


Well, you never were very discerning.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 20:16 #1007424
Reply to Hanover I imagine it's because the term 'science' isn't important to fight over among anthropologists rather than because they're trying to distance themselves from being correct about their topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas is probably relevant here. The old anthropology was pretty much thinly veiled racism -- more like "measurements" than measurements, and so pseudo-scientific in that it was used to confirm European opinions about other cultures differences rather than attempt to disconfirm some idea about the nature of societies. Further, culture is particularly in-apt for precise metrology -- "human culture" is not the sort of object that's easily translated into equations or strict relationships because "what counts" is culture-relative. There's not really an "outside" where an anthropologist can step away from their culture and evaluate it or another culture on some neutral ground, sort of like what physics tries to do.

Rather -- the people who know the most about a culture are the ones actually living it. And so the authority of knowledge is a bit different from the picture physics presents -- not the prediction of what an object will do, but the explanation of the meaning of something from another's perspective is more valuable.

If they kept "science" due to pressure on the social sciences I'd say that's more a shame that scholars have to conform to such political correctness in attempting to further their discipline. But, of course, it would be naive to think that academics are "beyond politics", so perhaps it would have been more prudent, if less honest?

But really I don't see an in-principle reason to exclude it as a science -- what makes it queer is that its object is hard to study in the traditionally "objective" way that other sciences have due to the reflexive relationship between researcher and culture: the researcher is already incultured and so brings that perspective in the analysis regardless of what they do. They can't just stop being human to objectively study humans.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 20:55 #1007427
Quoting unenlightened
Measure is the thing of all mans.


Very droll.


Hanover August 15, 2025 at 20:58 #1007428
Reply to Moliere So give me an example. We have justice (seems a good loaded example). Offer me your GA analysis of what justice is. Are we engaged in hermeneutics, philology, Marxist class conflict analysis, scientific analysis with historical or archeology evidence, or creative writing just so stories. Or, is there particular GA methodology?

Regardless, lay it out with this specific example so we're not stuck in the abstract.@DifferentiatingEgg
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 21:00 #1007430
Quoting Moliere
culture is particularly in-apt for precise metrology --


That’s true for all the social sciences.

Quoting Moliere
And so the authority of knowledge is a bit different from the picture physics presents -- not the prediction of what an object will do, but the explanation of the meaning of something from another's perspective is more valuable.


As I said previously, science is about the systematic study of the world based on evidence and observation. It’s not necessarily about predicting anything.

Quoting Moliere
They can't just stop being human to objectively study humans.


Again, that’s true of all the social sciences.

Moliere August 15, 2025 at 21:06 #1007431
Reply to Hanover Oh, GA is @DifferentingEgg's deal. I'm speaking simply about anthropology as a discipline. So the example would be Boas as someone who doesn't practice the "bad, old, positivistic" way.

I had to do the googles on what GA exactly was so I certainly couldn't speak more on that subject.

Reply to T Clark Very true!

Which is why I don't see an in-principle reason to reject them as sciences. One can do science on these subjects as one can do philosophy or art or whatever on these subjects. But what "science" is is going to be relative to a community, regardless of how we frame it -- and if "science" is being used more often than not as infelicitous as a topic in anthropology for a general frame then that'd justify dropping the mantle.

Not because it's "lesser" or something, but because the practicians -- the people who actually know what they're talking about because they dedicated their life to the subject -- have, as evidenced by the article, changed their "scope"

In the wider view I don't mind calling it a science, but if the practitioners don't, well... why argue with them on it?
javi2541997 August 15, 2025 at 21:13 #1007433
Another bataraz:

User image
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 21:14 #1007435
Quoting Moliere
In the wider view I don't mind calling it a science, but if the practitioners don't, well... why argue with them on it?


You’ve heard of pseudoscience. Now you’re suggesting we have pseudo not science.
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 21:16 #1007436
Reply to javi2541997 I had some of those. Plymouth Rock chickens.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 21:16 #1007437
Reply to T Clark Pseudoscience claims scientific authority when it has none -- astrology is my go-to example for people who look at it as "predictive" or "explanatory".

Anthropology can still be rigorous -- and even scientific, in the wider sense of how we consider what science is -- without singing the psalms to the gods of science.
Jamal August 15, 2025 at 21:35 #1007440
I'm kinda disappointed that I had a doner kebab in Turkey a few days ago and it was mediocre, then when I got to my home town in Scotland and had a doner kebab it was stupendous.
Hanover August 15, 2025 at 21:49 #1007446
Quoting Jamal
I'm kinda disappointed that I had a doner kebab in Turkey a few days ago and it was mediocre, then when I got to my home town in Scotland and had a doner kebab it was stupendous.


That might mean you like Scotkebabs better than Turkkebabs. The imitation exceeded the original.
Jamal August 15, 2025 at 22:03 #1007451
Reply to Hanover

Yes, I think so.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 22:17 #1007453
Quoting Moliere
Anthropology can still be rigorous -- and even scientific, in the wider sense of how we consider what science is -- without singing the psalms to the gods of science.


Well, I was sort of joking. But now that you bring it up - this has nothing to do with singing psalms. If you’re trying to somehow undermine the whole concept of science, I guess that’s OK but I’m not really interested. If we both agree that the idea of science is useful and valuable, then the question of whether anthropology is a science is not a matter of preference.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 22:22 #1007456
Quoting T Clark
If you’re trying to somehow undermine the whole concept of science, I guess that’s OK but I’m not really interested.


Nope, not interested either. I like science.

Quoting T Clark
If we both agree that the idea of science is useful and valuable, then the question of whether anthropology is a science is not a matter of preference.


I haven't relied upon preference here, exactly, but definition on the basis of people who are doing the thing.

In a way it really is just "preference" -- in terms of why people want something to be 'scientific' -- but in another way that preference is for a practice outside of one's individual desires (i.e. the desires won't determine what "science" gets to be, whatever it is) -- the desire is for some sort of order in inference such that we can trust the inferences.

In which case, if we prefer science for these reasons, then it is a matter of preference -- a preference for the "objective", which in turn is decided by our scientific practice.

This isn't an "undermining" as much as an elucidation of how things work. I say "Psalms" because the way people treat scientific statements is like they have to be said in some sort of rhythm that makes them "pure" from the "merely subjective" or "preferential"

To the point that as soon as a group of people who have dedicated their lives to a scholarly pursuit decide to not use the word "science", your judgment of them is that they are wrong.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 22:39 #1007459
Reply to Jamal Or that the best kebab makers left Turkey.

Moliere August 15, 2025 at 22:42 #1007460
Reply to Banno That's what I began to wonder too.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 22:46 #1007462
Reply to Moliere I'll surmise that the lamb in Scotland might be of a better quality than in Turkey - nice blackface, perhaps. More fat?

Moliere August 15, 2025 at 22:47 #1007463
Reply to Banno Could be that @Jamal was the unfortunate one who wandered to the booth that lives on due to people's ignorance of where the good stuff is.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 22:48 #1007464
Quoting javi2541997
bataraz


This doesn't seem to have a direct translation in English - roughly "Mottled grey and white"?

Moliere August 15, 2025 at 22:48 #1007465
At least, I'd be very surprised if we somehow were able to judge "good kebab" from both countries at a given moment they'd have uniform characteristics, especially given emigration in this world.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 22:50 #1007466
Reply to Moliere

UN warns 88 percent of Turkey at high risk of desertification amid growing water crisis

Not conducive to fattening the lamb.

Assuming that Reply to Jamal's kebab was lamb... it is the best meat for a kebab.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 22:51 #1007468
Reply to Banno not goat?
Banno August 15, 2025 at 22:56 #1007471
Reply to Moliere Ooooo... hard.

No, while goats eat everything, I prefer to eat lamb. I find it more succulent.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:02 #1007472
Reply to Banno heh. I like lamb, too.

not sure I have a preference for one or the other at this point. Maybe goat only because I know they're assholes after living with them ;)
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:07 #1007474
Reply to Moliere It also very much depends on the dish. But generally I'd put it down to fat content - lamb is fatter, fat is flavour.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:08 #1007475
Reply to Banno Yeah, true. It's a flavour everyone loves, at least :D

Though I've learned to like various not-fat things, it's not like I hate fatty meals -- they taste delicious.
Jamal August 15, 2025 at 23:12 #1007476
@Banno @Moliere

It was at Antalya airport so you can't judge on that basis. The meat was good quality lamb but it was served without sauce or much seasoning. Lamb, tomatoes, onions, and that was it. It didn't hit the spot for me.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:13 #1007477
Reply to Moliere Ain't nobody wants a tofu kebab.

But Vietnamese tofu soup...slurp, shlurp...
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:14 #1007478
Quoting Jamal
It was at Antalya airport...

There's your problem...
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:16 #1007479
Reply to Banno Well, you know me, as soon as you say it . . .

I actually do like firm tofu fried a lot -- that's not grilled, of course, but what if you put some fatty meat in with the tofu to help give it that texture?

At least, I like deep fried tofu as a savory treat, similar to a kabob.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:18 #1007481
Reply to Jamal I usually don't eat a kebab with sauce, now that I think about it -- not a dipping one, anyways.

I believe it was inferior to the latter rendition, as you said -- just thinking on reasons for "why?", without any knowledge to ensure that it's rigorous. ;)
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:22 #1007482
Reply to Moliere Oh, I am a tofu regular, but use it in stir fry's and soups, with lots of fresh veggies, especially capsicum. I even have a tofu press.

But the point of a kebab is the fat.

A kebab needs a garlic and yogurt sauce, of course.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:28 #1007484
Reply to Banno Suppose you put lamb and bacon with the tofu in such a proportion that the tofu was fatty, then separated out the meat from the tofu.

Would it be possible to do that with non-meat fatty substances? I think it might.

Maybe even could make a vegetarian kebab based in fat, with enough care . . .

I like the fat of a kebab (duh) -- I'm just now wondering, due to a challenge, if I *could* make tofu a kebab, rather than soup or stir fry, item.

either way, yes, I love tofu. Cheap healthy protein that tastes exactly as you want it to. (unless you don't know what to do with it, then it tastes like curdled bean product strained, blandly)
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:38 #1007486
Reply to Moliere Good ideas.

...there are a few recipes on line that look fine.

But if you want a vegetarian kebab, why not use paneer or even halloumi? Built in fat.

I think paneer, so that the taste of the sauce is dominant.

Actually, egg plant might work... maybe mushroom. They'd soak up the oil.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:42 #1007487
Quoting Banno
But if you want a vegetarian kebab, why not use paneer or even halloumi? Built in fat.

I think paneer, so that the taste of the sauce is dominant.


That does sound good -- I wouldn't have thought of these because I had to look them up :D

Quoting Banno
Actually, egg plant might work... maybe mushroom.


True, and that'd be the vegan route now that I think on it: egg plant and mushroom soak up flavors and are meaty at the same time.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 23:49 #1007489
Quoting Moliere
In which case, if we prefer science for these reasons, then it is a matter of preference -- a preference for the "objective", which in turn is decided by our scientific practice.


My problem goes back to the definition of “science” - the systematic study of the world based on evidence and observation. I’ve been thinking about whether or not “rigorous” should be added to that list. Maybe that’s just the difference between good science and bad science.

Anthropology meets that definition. I’ve been thinking about starting a thread about the scientific method. I’ve done that in the past, but I wonder if it makes sense to do it again. I guess that term is shorthand for what I’ve been describing. But maybe it would make more sense to be more specific about what’s included.
Banno August 15, 2025 at 23:50 #1007490
Quoting Moliere
I wouldn't have thought of these because I had to look them up

Oh no! Go by some halloumi right now and fry it up - hot pan, olive oil, just enough to brown it on both sides. Serve on toast with salad - roast capsicum, mustard greens, whatever - and a garlic sauce. Fuck'n brilliant.

Beats bacon.
Moliere August 15, 2025 at 23:53 #1007491
Quoting T Clark
Anthropology meets that definition. I’ve been thinking about starting a thread about the scientific method. I’ve done that in the past, but I wonder if it makes sense to do it again. I guess that term is shorthand for what I’ve been describing. But maybe it would make more sense to be more specific about what’s included.


Well, I, for one, have obsessed over that question enough to respond, though I might wait a bit just because I've obsessed over that question ;)

Feyerabend is my "dude" when it comes to science, but it's all wrapped up in interpretations of Popper, Kuhn, and Lakatos.

Quoting Banno
Oh no! Go by some halloumi now and fry it up - hot pan, just enough to brown it. Serve on toast with salad - roast capsicum, mustard greens, whatever - and a garlic sauce. Fuck'n brilliant.


That sounds amazing.

No promises on when I'll do it, but I thank you for the introduction to new food stuff.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 23:54 #1007492
Quoting Banno
I am a tofu regular, but use it in stir fry's and soups, with lots of fresh veggies, especially capsicum. I even have a tofu press.


I’m not a big tofu fan, but my son made a dish I really like. Cut the tofu into small chunks, dredge it in cornstarch, set it aside to dry, and then fry it. It came out very crispy and then he put on a savory spicy sauce.
T Clark August 15, 2025 at 23:58 #1007494
Quoting Moliere
Feyerabend is my "dude" when it comes to science, but it's all wrapped up in interpretations of Popper, Kuhn, and Lakatos.


My understanding comes from 30 years as an engineer. As part of my work, I often had to collect data, evaluate it, and then use it to make decisions following rigorous formal procedures.
Banno August 16, 2025 at 00:00 #1007495
Quoting T Clark
I’m not a big tofu fan

Folk who don't like tofu are usually doing it wrong. It takes on the flavour of the other ingredients, so is mostly there for texture and protein; it works as a straight man to the other flavours. The corn flour trick is spot on - I press the tofu first to dry it out.
T Clark August 16, 2025 at 00:03 #1007496
Quoting Moliere
Feyerabend is my "dude" when it comes to science, but it's all wrapped up in interpretations of Popper, Kuhn, and Lakatos.


Something I thought of after I submitted the previous post. I’m not claiming that the scientific method is what drives science - only that true science must include data collected and evaluated in accordance with it.
Moliere August 16, 2025 at 00:03 #1007497
Reply to T Clark You have more years than I, and I'm not engineer -- I'm mentioning my intellectual influences, but that's not to say that I have no experience as a scientist. I've been paid to do science for 5 or so years before so I'm not ignorant on the "practical" side.

Collecting data, evaluating it, and making decisions are an important part of science, of course.

I'd say "collecting data, evaluating it, and making decisions" differ between different sciences, though, especially in the broad sense where we're including anthropology with physics, for instance. Yes, that's what they're doing. No, they're not doing it like engineers do it -- they're anthropologists, not engineers with 30 years of experience doing engineering.

Reply to Banno Easiest trick I picked up was putting the thick tofu into a freezer first, then thaw it.

I never had a press, but I use two plates as a press to squeeze out the water.

Corn starch would be nice too, now that I think on it. Throw those cubes into a deep frier and we're talking an appetizer!
Moliere August 16, 2025 at 00:04 #1007498
Reply to T Clark I think in that looser sense anthropology still counts -- so they don't have to, at the[s]APA[/s]AAA, say "Yes, we're scientists!" when speaking to one another about what anthropology is.
Banno August 16, 2025 at 00:07 #1007499
Spicy Peanut Tofu Bowls
See the bit about How To Make Tofu Crispy.


Reply to T Clark Trouble is, there's not really such a thing as The scientific method, if by that is meant a sort of algorithm that produces knowledge.

In addition to collecting data and evaluating, there'a a need for building on concurrence.



Moliere August 16, 2025 at 00:10 #1007500
Reply to Banno And many other things!

It's a social, rather than procedural, practice.
Banno August 16, 2025 at 00:10 #1007501
Quoting Moliere
It's a social, rather than procedural, practice.


Tofu, or science?
Moliere August 16, 2025 at 00:11 #1007502
Reply to Banno heh, science is what I was thinking.
T Clark August 16, 2025 at 00:12 #1007503
Quoting Moliere
I'd say "collecting data, evaluating it, and making decisions" differ between different sciences,


Of course that’s correct. When I say “scientific method,” specific disciplines have different methodologies, but they all must follow the same primary standards.

Quoting Moliere
I think in that looser sense anthropology still counts -- so they don't have to, at the APA, say "Yes, we're scientists!" when speaking to one another about what anthropology is.


I’ll make a stronger statement than I have been - to the extent collecting data about the physical, biological, and human world does not follow a set of procedure similar to what I’ve described it is not as well justified as collecting data that does.
T Clark August 16, 2025 at 00:14 #1007504
Quoting Banno
In addition to collecting data and evaluating, there'a a need for building on concurrence.


Good point. I would say that following the scientific method is exactly what’s required in order to build consensus. That’s not to say it’s the only thing required.
Moliere August 16, 2025 at 00:15 #1007505
Quoting T Clark
but they all must follow the same primary standards.


OK, we're in the shoutbox so no more -- but I encourage you to develop this thought into an OP because I wanted to respond to it :D
DifferentiatingEgg August 16, 2025 at 00:42 #1007507
Whats funny is my philosophy teacher at University understands quite succinctly what Im talking about about using the GA methodology to research when an Idea(s) becomes a thing within the existing context of language...
Hanover August 16, 2025 at 01:56 #1007521
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Whats funny is my philosophy teacher at University understands quite succinctly what Im talking about about using the GA methodology to research when an Idea(s) becomes a thing within the existing context of language...


I actually wanted an example to understand what you were talking about.

In any event, I don't see how there can be scientific and unscientific branches of anthropology and both be considered anthropology.
Hanover August 16, 2025 at 02:02 #1007522
Quoting Banno
Trouble is, there's not really such a thing as The scientific method, if by that is meant a sort of algorithm that produces knowledge.


The issue isn't that we're in the gray zone, debating the edges where the scientific method begins and ends. Anthropology admits it is not scientific and asserts it needn't be.
Banno August 16, 2025 at 02:10 #1007523
Quoting Hanover
Anthropology admits it is not scientific and asserts it needn't be.


I doubt it - but particular anthropologists might.

I don't much mind what they call themselves so long as their methods are open, critical and at least somewhat in agreement.
Hanover August 16, 2025 at 02:13 #1007524
Quoting Banno
I doubt it - but particular anthropologists might.


"Anthropologists have been thrown into turmoil about the nature and future of their profession after a decision by the American Anthropological Association at its recent annual meeting to strip the word “science” from a statement of its long-range plan."
Banno August 16, 2025 at 02:32 #1007527
Quoting Hanover
"Anthropologists have been thrown into turmoil about the nature and future of their profession after a decision by the American Anthropological Association at its recent annual meeting to strip the word “science” from a statement of its long-range plan."

Ok. Somewhat parochial, but perhaps an astute move given the defunding of science in your nation.

I'm sure Europe's and China's various anthropological associations will carry on regardless.
Moliere August 16, 2025 at 02:43 #1007528
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg I have no doubt that you know what you're talking about, I just didn't want to say something ignorant about GA when I was thinking about other stuff.

That it's "your deal" doesn't mean it's bad -- it's just not something I could speak on, and would allow you to speak on it, and even encourage it.

I can make wild guesses but if you have a prof then you'll be in the better position, end of story.
Hanover August 16, 2025 at 03:07 #1007533
Quoting Banno
Somewhat parochial, but perhaps an astute move given the defunding of science in your nation.


The article indicated the decision was reached after bitter internal debate within the anthropology community over methodological disputes. It was not was reactive to outside political pressure. The decision was also reached in 2010 during the Obama administration, which was not a period of defunding.

Even had ithe decision been reached during the Trump years, declaring themselves non-scientific would have given them less protection from defunding, and would have been openly suicidal.

In other words, you're not making any sense.
Banno August 16, 2025 at 03:13 #1007534
Quoting Hanover
The decision was also reached in 2010

Oh, it's old news. Fine.


Says here:

Quoting AAA Long-Range Plan
The American Anthropological Association will support the growth, advancement and application of anthropological science and interpretation through research, publication, and dissemination within a broad range of educational and research institutions, through the application of anthropological expertise in professional practice, as well as by communicating anthropological knowledge to society at large.


See the bit I bolded?


javi2541997 August 16, 2025 at 05:02 #1007544
Quoting Banno
Mottled grey


Yeah. A mottled grey chicken. :cool:
javi2541997 August 16, 2025 at 05:04 #1007545
Pobre gallo bataraz... :sad:

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javi2541997 August 16, 2025 at 05:08 #1007546
Reply to Hanover I am sorry to disagree with your post.

That chickens only exist in Argentina and Uruguay. I can't believe you have one of those, but it's not impossible. I mean that we aren't talking about the same chicken.
BC August 16, 2025 at 06:29 #1007548
Reply to javi2541997 In the US those are called 'Plymouth Rock' chickens. OK, no, they're not exactly the same, but per Heraclitus, you can't fry the same egg twice. This variety of chicken was hatched out in around 1861, so it's not an ancient variety. It's a combo of 4 different crisscrossed breeds.

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As far as I know, Plymouth rocks are not what one would call "fancy chickens" like this:

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javi2541997 August 16, 2025 at 06:51 #1007549
Reply to BC Good point. I guess 'Plymouth Rock' chickens are distant cousins of bataraz.

Anyway, what surprised me the most about chickens is how much they enjoy watermelon. I saw a chicken eating an entire watermelon by itself.

I think all breeds of chicken are fancy. It is a gorgeous animal.
unenlightened August 16, 2025 at 10:17 #1007577
Any science whose object of study encompasses that which is liable to form opinions of science, and be influenced thereby, suffers from a feedback, whereby the study is liable to influence the behaviour of the object of study.

Example: the placebo effect.

Accordingly Social science, psychology, medical science, and so on suffer from difficulties that physics or geology do not. In the case of medicine, double blind studies are the norm, and in psychology, deception as to the purpose of the study is the norm. This gives rise to moral concerns, and hence ethics committees.

In the case of anthropology, the moral concern extends to the very substance of the claims being made of the nature of the study. To be socially the subject of observation and experiment is to be disempowered and deceived - necessarily so, because science must maintain the distinction between the scientist and the object of study to maintain objectivity.

Accordingly, the decision to waive any claim to scientific rigour is an ethical one, and follows directly from the critique of the subject as a colonial, elitist, and racist enterprise. If we are all equal in dignity and rights, then the culture of science cannot impose itself on another culture without violating it.
frank August 16, 2025 at 11:14 #1007587
Some surrealism:

Moliere August 16, 2025 at 16:25 #1007617
Reply to unenlightened Insightful, as always.

It's not a bad thing to manipulate atoms to do what you want, but it is a bad thing to manipulate humans to do what you want (even in the abstract where someone "merely" wants to understand humanity as a whole, as a curiosity)

My childhood friend studied anthropology and that's where a lot of my response has come from. Back in our college days we'd often talk about the "objectivity" of science with respect to the various topics since I was doing chemistry and he was doing anthropology (and math). I think you're right that it's an ethical decision, but I also want to say that there's this deeper knowledge that comes from not setting up deception in order to create a separation between researcher and object of research. In a way that's the "bad" objectivity of the positivists -- the whole idea of "stepping outside" was always false, even with physics, because we're physical entities. Somehow, though, that kind of study doesn't lead to various awful pseudo-scientific studies attempting to literally build another human being to prove that they know how humans develop. (EDIT: MKUltra coming to mind here as a government program that attempted exactly that in the most evil ways imaginable)
Banno August 16, 2025 at 21:44 #1007668
Reply to BC I have an Austrolorp and an Isa Brown. Both will produce three hundred eggs a year, far higher than the paltry (!) 200 from the "Plymoth Rock".

T Clark August 16, 2025 at 22:43 #1007687
Quoting unenlightened
To be socially the subject of observation and experiment is to be disempowered and deceived - necessarily so, because science must maintain the distinction between the scientist and the object of study to maintain objectivity.


This doesn’t seem necessarily true to me. There’s nothing inherently deceptive or manipulative about observing a society or culture, whether or not it’s your own. The need to maintain some level of objectivity applies to the procedures followed and observations made, not to one’s responsibility for treating the other people involved with normal human concern and respect.
T Clark August 16, 2025 at 22:52 #1007691
Quoting unenlightened
Accordingly, the decision to waive any claim to scientific rigour is an ethical one, and follows directly from the critique of the subject as a colonial, elitist, and racist enterprise. If we are all equal in dignity and rights, then the culture of science cannot impose itself on another culture without violating it.


Studying something without an adequate level of rigor defeats the purpose of the work entirely. That’s what science is for - to gather information and draw conclusions of high enough quality to be of value. There is no necessary conflict between scientific rigor and responsible, humane behavior.
T Clark August 16, 2025 at 23:30 #1007707
Quoting Moliere
there's this deeper knowledge that comes from not setting up deception in order to create a separation between researcher and object of research. In a way that's the "bad" objectivity of the positivists -- the whole idea of "stepping outside" was always false, even with physics, because we're physical entities.


A certain amount of separation, objectivity, is required for any scientific study. I’d go further and say it’s required for any truely rigorous study. As I noted previously, knowledge gathered by study without adequate rigor is not credible or useful.
Metaphysician Undercover August 17, 2025 at 00:50 #1007722
Quoting Banno
I have an Austrolorp and an Isa Brown. Both will produce three hundred eggs a year, far higher than the paltry (!) 200 from the "Plymoth Rock".


Chickens are extremely light sensitive, and maximum egg production depends on extended hours of light. The one in the picture, "Barred Rock", sometimes called "Barred Plymouth Rock", can lay over 250 in a year with artificial lighting, and that's not a paltry sum. She rocks the henhouse!

Notice that I don't use "per year" though. That would be a bit deceptive because the old girls can't keep rockin for the long term. That's no problem though, because they are even more delicious than their precise eggs. Break out the buffalo sauce.
Banno August 17, 2025 at 00:56 #1007724
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Both Austolorps and Isa browns outlay Plymouths over a lifetime. Isa's will lay more eggs than either of the others per kg of food.

ISA Brown / similar commercial hybrids
Peak output: ~300 eggs/year.
FCR: ~2.0–2.2 kg feed per dozen eggs.

Australorp (heritage layer)
Output: ~200–250 eggs/year in good conditions.
FCR: ~2.5–2.8 kg per dozen eggs.

Plymouth Rock
Output: ~180–220 eggs/year.
FCR: ~2.8–3.0 kg per dozen eggs.


If the aim is to eat your birds when laying drops of, Austrolorp are the preferd breed because they are heavier.
Metaphysician Undercover August 17, 2025 at 01:04 #1007726
Reply to Banno
If we're getting analytical, then we need egg size to fill out data charts.
Banno August 17, 2025 at 01:05 #1007727
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover OK.

ISA Browns
Lay large to extra-large eggs almost from the start.
Average: 63–65 g per egg.

Australorps
Start with medium eggs as pullets, then move up to large.
Average: 55–60 g per egg.

Plymouth Rocks
Medium to large eggs.
Average: 55–58 g per egg.

BC August 17, 2025 at 01:16 #1007730
Reply to Banno AI says that Plymouth Rock chickens are gentle and good around children. One might wonder how much experience the computer has raising children, chickens, or both. And how much responsibility should chickens be given for raising one's children?

300 eggs a year is remarkable. Are the eggs on the small size? Are the shells strong?

Your chickens could each be laying 19.5 kg of eggs per year (300 x 65/1000). Are they free-range? How much feed do they need? Mineral supplement? Does your weather allow for year-round grazing outside? Do you eat your chickens? IF you eat them, do you wring their necks or chop their heads off? We always used an ax. They always seemed to intimate what was coming and would squawk a lot on the way to the place of execution. They did not go gently into that night.

Our golden lab found the slaughter of chickens and butchering (which we did outside) to be upsetting.
Banno August 17, 2025 at 01:31 #1007732
Quoting BC
300 eggs a year is remarkable. Are the eggs on the small size? Are the shells strong?


Given that the ISA is the commonest commercial egg hen, yep.

In the USA there is another hybrid, the Hy-line brown, that is claimed to produce more than an ISA. Not common elsewhere. It and the ISA are proprietary. You can't breed them yourself. Not so, the Austrolorp.

Quoting BC
Are they free-range?

Deep litter, in a large fox proof cage, with the occasional excursion into the wider garden. The two hens provide more than enough eggs, except for a few weeks in June. Feed is a commercial mix, supplemented with kitchen stuff and weeds from the garden.

I don't eat my friends. When I have had to end them, I wring their neck. Less mess. But it is surprisingly hard to do.


BC August 17, 2025 at 03:56 #1007739
Quoting Banno
I don't eat my friends.


Or don't make friends with food.

We had two pet chickens at one point. They started life as dyed easter chicks. They survived and lived in our yard and in other people's yards as they saw fit, totally free range before we had heard the term. They were always together. They weren't popular with the neighbors. They were kind of scrawny. They slept on a bench next to the back door under a tub. In the end they were et.

They were the last pet before the dog, some sort of medium sized bird dog mix. Loved the dog. It died. Later came a golden retriever who lived for a long time. Also loved this dog. We did a lot of hiking together. That was many years ago.
Banno August 17, 2025 at 04:11 #1007743
Reply to BC Time's a bitch.

I've plenty of chook stories. Best not start.

Odd, that you Yanks don't use the word "chook".
BC August 17, 2025 at 05:52 #1007753
Reply to Banno Why is it odd? 'Chook' is your colloquial vernacular. You probably don't have coon dogs.
unenlightened August 17, 2025 at 08:40 #1007763
Quoting T Clark
There’s nothing inherently deceptive or manipulative about observing a society or culture, whether or not it’s your own.


That's true. One can be open about it. The aliens could announce their intentions to observe humanity to see whether we were sufficiently civilised to join the Galactic Community or whether we were sufficiently depraved to warrant extermination. But they don't, because humanity might not be as honest in displaying their negative attributes if they knew.

Quoting Banno
Plymouth Rocks
Medium to large eggs.
Average: 55–58 g per egg.


Hard boil only.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 11:09 #1007774
I'm actually picking up 6 chickens today. They're 6 weeks old, so big enough to live outside in the coop.

We gave our last few to the neighbors a while ago because of foxes. We have since reforttified the coop into Fort Knox and are ready for the next round.
Moliere August 17, 2025 at 14:04 #1007800
Quoting T Clark
A certain amount of separation, objectivity, is required for any scientific study. I’d go further and say it’s required for any truely rigorous study. As I noted previously, knowledge gathered by study without adequate rigor is not credible or useful.


You noted, but where's the argument and OP? :D
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 14:39 #1007803
We're getting some Blue Laced Red Wyandottes.

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Outlander August 17, 2025 at 15:04 #1007804
Reply to Hanover

Nice. Any particular reason for that specific sort other than a passing recommendation or was it just what was on hand at the time?
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 15:10 #1007805
Quoting Outlander
Nice. Any particular reason for that specific sort other than a passing recommendation or was it just what was on hand at the time?


There's a chicken breeder near me who breeds all different kinds and my wife just picked one out. We've had a bunch of different kinds over the years, but given their varying life spans, we don't want to spend too much on designer chickens, but those looked cool.
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 15:13 #1007807
Quoting Moliere
You noted, but where's the argument and OP?


Hold your horses.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 15:17 #1007809
It would seem @T Clark being from Massachusetts should know something about Plymouth Rock chickens since they've lived near his family since strutting off the Mayflower.
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 15:20 #1007810
Quoting unenlightened
That's true. One can be open about it. The aliens could announce their intentions to observe humanity to see whether we were sufficiently civilised to join the Galactic Community or whether we were sufficiently depraved to warrant extermination. But they don't, because humanity might not be as honest in displaying their negative attributes if they knew.


Keeping observer effects out of the results is a problem for all science. Obviously, it’s more of a problem when you are observing people. In the case of the alien, if you’re planning on exterminating everyone, worrying about inappropriate interference is less of an issue.
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 15:21 #1007812
Quoting Hanover
It would seem T Clark being from Massachusetts should know something about Plymouth Rock chickens since they've lived near his family since strutting off the Mayflower.


Here’s what I know about chickens - when the little dohickey pops up, it’s time to eat. On the other hand, we do have wild turkeys in my backyard.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 15:22 #1007813
Quoting T Clark
Keeping observer effects out of the results is a problem for all science. Obviously, it’s more of a problem when you are observing people. In the case of the alien, if you’re planning on exterminating everyone, worrying about inappropriate interference is less of an issue.


Here's a response. It's an old school way of cutting and pasting. User image
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 15:22 #1007814
Apologies if thumb is in the way. I've not mastered the technology.
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 16:05 #1007816
Quoting Hanover
Here's a response. It's an old school way of cutting and pasting.


The text you posted includes this statement:

Text @Hanover quoted:Hermeneutic thinkers, however, believe that we have falsely elevated this scientific ideal of knowledge, allowing it to become the measure of all human knowledge. They contest the idea that knowledge is obtained through disinterested observation.


I've often said that science is not the only way of knowing things, but it's a good way for particular purposes. It isn't "the measure of all human knowledge." I'll go back to the definition of "science" I've been using - the systematic study of the world based on evidence and observation. That's what you need if you want a certain level of rigor in your knowledge - accuracy, precision, reliability, reproducibility, usability.

So, the question is - are anthropologists trying to generate that kind of knowledge? What will the knowledge they generate be used for?
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 16:06 #1007817
Quoting Hanover
Apologies if thumb is in the way. I've not mastered the technology.


I was going to comment on how attractive your thumb is.
javi2541997 August 17, 2025 at 17:11 #1007838
Reply to Hanover Reply to Hanover

It seems that your finger accumulates a lot of blood there. You may have eaten a lot of seafood recently. Call a doctor before it is too late.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 17:17 #1007839
Quoting T Clark
The text you posted includes this statement:

Hermeneutic thinkers, however, believe that we have falsely elevated this scientific ideal of knowledge, allowing it to become the measure of all human knowledge. They contest the idea that knowledge is obtained through disinterested observation.
— Text Hanover quoted


Typing in from pictured quotes is a category error. Proper consistent technology use works like this:

User image
Outlander August 17, 2025 at 18:05 #1007846
Quoting Hanover
designer chickens


There's an industry I was having a better day not knowing existed. :lol:
unenlightened August 17, 2025 at 18:05 #1007847
Quoting T Clark
In the case of the alien, if you’re planning on exterminating everyone, worrying about inappropriate interference is less of an issue.


I think it would be an issue for us.
DifferentiatingEgg August 17, 2025 at 18:23 #1007849
Quoting Hanover
I actually wanted an example to understand what you were talking about.

Right on, well, I apologize for any offense I may have rendered.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 19:14 #1007857
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Right on, well, I apologize for any offense I may have rendered.


No worries. The issue of how scientific anthropology should be seems unsettled and controversial within the field.
BC August 17, 2025 at 19:15 #1007858
Reply to Hanover Is that Gadamer you're quoting there? Seems like that exceeds the posted weight-limit for the Shoutbox.
T Clark August 17, 2025 at 20:16 #1007865
Quoting Hanover
Typing in from pictured quotes is a category error.


I did not type in the quote. I uploaded the figure and then opened it in Google Docs. That automatically translated the photographed text into copyable text.

Ha!!!
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 21:02 #1007889
Reply to BC It's "Hermeneutics: A Very Short Introduction" by Jens Zimmermann. It's in the "Very Short Introduction" series. It provides sufficient expertise to dazzle Shoutbox travelers, but just beneath what you need for a PhD.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 21:13 #1007893
Quoting T Clark
I did not type in the quote. I uploaded the figure and then opened it in Google Docs. That automatically translated the photographed text into copyable text.


Sounds like black magic. I'll have nothing to do with that.
Outlander August 17, 2025 at 21:26 #1007898
Reply to Hanover

If nothing else I like, enjoy, and appreciate the visualization of the half-moon circles visible on your thumb's fingernail. Some esoteric people claim this is a sign of good "chi" or positive or otherwise advanced spiritual energy within. So good for you.
Hanover August 17, 2025 at 21:33 #1007899
Quoting Outlander
If nothing else I like, enjoy, and appreciate the visualization of the half-moon circles visible on your thumb's fingernail. Some esoteric people claim this is a sign of good "chi" or positive or otherwise advanced spiritual energy within. So good for you.


Your cite was to psychopathy, so there's that. But thank you for the thumb compliments.
Banno August 17, 2025 at 23:20 #1007915
Better in the shout box than in the thread

Quoting Outlander
You wrote this all yourself?



Puts me in mind of an anecdote. two undergrads were waiting to talk to Russel Ward in Ward's office, which had full bookcases on all four walls and a floor strewn with journals.

One, in awe, said, "Look at all the books!"

The other replied "Do you think he's read them?"

From the corridor came the droll reply "No, he wrote them"
Outlander August 18, 2025 at 09:09 #1007993
Reply to Hanover

The link switch was more of a funny gag. I thought you of all people would eat it up. Kinda have to be on PC and hover over it first for the effect, I guess. Kind of a play on the sentiment many people hold that view metaphysics and theism in general as "crazy." Oh, it's not important.

But yeah I was just reminded of that tidbit of information I was told at some point in life. Something about clearly defined semicircles at the base of one's nails being indicative of "good chi" or something along those lines. So presumably some sort of East Asian suspicion or belief. You'd have to ask them.

Naturally mine are quite defined and visible, similar to yours, so I consider that proof of something at least. :cheer:
Outlander August 18, 2025 at 10:16 #1007999
Oh, look at that. @Pfhorrest is on. It's been a good quarter-year since I've heard from him. Glad to know he (or she) is alive. :cool:
Moliere August 18, 2025 at 11:04 #1008000
Reply to Hanover I share those concerns.

My suspicion is that I'll end up defending the project of science while simultaneously trying to point out philosophical problems with "objectivity" when attempting to universalize that objectivity from particular sciences to some kind of architectonic of science: "Objective", from this viewpoint, being a matter of intersubjective agreement between practitioners which secures the "not just my viewpoint" flavor of objectivity, but downplays the "all science must share some basic method" flavor of objective-science.

Yeah, it's objective and works -- but the object has some say in what works, and sometimes it's better if we don't treat everything like it must reduce down to physics.
Hanover August 18, 2025 at 13:23 #1008010
Quoting Moliere
My suspicion is that I'll end up defending the project of science while simultaneously trying to point out philosophical problems with "objectivity" when attempting to universalize that objectivity from particular sciences to some kind of architectonic of science: "Objective", from this viewpoint, being a matter of intersubjective agreement between practitioners which secures the "not just my viewpoint" flavor of objectivity, but downplays the "all science must share some basic method" flavor of objective-science.

Yeah, it's objective and works -- but the object has some say in what works, and sometimes it's better if we don't treat everything like it must reduce down to physics.


I think we can admit that the scientific method is one of a number of possible hermeneutics without having to resolve the objective/subjective question. A basis for using the method is simply that it works. It lands people on the moon. We can debate certain aspects of what that methodology demands, but it would seem at a minimum there would be a question, some hypothesis as to what that answer is, and an experiment or evidence to test the hypothesis. If you can't invalidate the hypothesis with some sort of experiment or evidence, then you're not doing science.

So, if I say language began as a single explosive event in humanity, without a slow progression, and that suddenly increased human social evolution, unless I can point to some evidence to support it, I'm just guessing, and that's not science.

If you want a different hermeneutic whose purpose is to advance social equality without emphasising those explanations that best explain the evidence we have, then that's subjectively as good a hermeneutic as a scientific one if that's how you priortize what is important, but expect major pushback in that regard. The reason you will is because as a secular society, we have pretty much landed on science as being the universal way of obtaining knowledge. If we take other approaches to interpretation (as might exist in religion or political ideology), then you will necessary polarize because those bases are not where we claim common ground (as we do in science).

In other words, if I tell an anthropologist his conclusions are bullshit because they are aren't scientific, that sparks a debate about the significance of science to some degree. I say to some degree because it would be very unexpected for someone to say "I don't care what physics tells me because it's based on science and science is bullshit." That is, there is an ingrained acceptance even among the non-scientific folks that there's something special about science. They may in bad faith dispute the scientific methods when the science tells them what the don't want to hear (e.g. evolution), but they would very rarely say science isn't a valid method for knowing.




















Moliere August 18, 2025 at 13:55 #1008012
Quoting Hanover
I think we can admit that the scientific method is one of a number of possible hermeneutics without having to resolve the objective/subjective question.


I'm sympathetic to obviating the objective/subjective distinction, but wasn't sure how else to respond to @TClark than through that distinction given that it's his basic statement of what science is.

Quoting Hanover
In other words, if I tell an anthropologist his conclusions are bullshit because they are aren't scientific, that sparks a debate about the significance of science to some degree. I say to some degree because it would be very unexpected for someone to say "I don't care what physics tells me because it's based on science and science is bullshit."


For my part it's the "...because they aren't scientific" that I'm denying; my suspicion is that we're generalizing from one special science -- physics and its attendant engineering -- to all science as in The Scientific Method. This is in line with the popular conception that physics is the queen of the sciences to be emulated by other sciences.

It's this belief that I'm denying.

Not that science is not in some way a valid method of knowing. And not that one must adopt a religious methodology in the face of a limitation on the practices of science. I think science is "special" in a way, just not in the way that we say it is. I think it's much more confusing than that, and especially not hierarchically organized where physics/math/engineering are the supposed landmark Good Sciences.

They landed us on the moon, which is the whiz-bang factor in persuading people in the value of science. "Look at all the cool things we can do now!'

But we might not want that kind of understanding towards human beings. We might just end up traumatizing those weaker than us and then claiming that this trauma is evidence that we've been able to build their personality. That's pretty much how I see the human sciences which aspire towards a physics: what else could they want other than to control other people, given the emphases on measurement and prediction?

Is that the kind of science we really want in this world? Is it really more "objective", or is it just useful for thems who like to manipulate others?

It could be just as objective to note that we don't need to traumatize others and manipulate them in order to understand them. We can do so through relationship, but this isn't the same as the relationship between Doctor-Patient, Psychologist-Patient, or Researcher-Object.

There's a point in there where it's also not science, either -- but anthropology sits in a difficult, rather than bullshit, position of navigating something hard to navigate, much like medicine and psychology and the rest of the human, social sciences. Do we really want a social science that is a physics of human beings, and is that more "objective" after all?
T Clark August 18, 2025 at 16:56 #1008045
Quoting Moliere
I'm sympathetic to obviating the objective/subjective distinction, but wasn't sure how else to respond to TClark than through that distinction given that it's his basic statement of what science is.


You mentioned Feyerabend and Kuhn, about whom I know very little. So I looked them up on Wikipedia. I’m not particularly sympathetic to the way they see things. The one thing that really did stick out to me was their idea of incommensurability. I appreciate the irony given that your way of seeing things here and mine are probably incommensurable.
javi2541997 August 18, 2025 at 18:24 #1008060
I got sick despite having an average temperature of 40-42°C for the last two weeks. A rare flu.

I don't understand why this happens. Is there a doctor in The Shoutbox?
BC August 18, 2025 at 18:37 #1008064
Reply to Moliere Don't we want to live in a 'knowable world'? Not everybody does; some people like Mysteries, arbitrary gods, and the like; I for one do not.

Physics and chemistry contributes to our 'knowable world'. Success in exploring the solar system and beyond depend on the hard sciences. But physics doesn't help explain why birds sing. For that one needs biological science. Physics doesn't help explain why people make political and economic choices. It doesn't explain the varieties of sexual behavior. For knowledge about human behavior biological and human sciences are needed.

Yes, applying psychology, sociology, political science, economics, anthropology, etc. to humans can seem coldly manipulative. Some human studies have sparked outrage because it sounded too invasive, too 'personal', too manipulative, etc. Part of the outrage is from people who just don't like social science. Some of it is has other sources, like reputation issues. Some researchers and their research were just plain bad science (bad because poorly done).

But if we are going to live in a knowable world, then we need scientifically produced knowledge about ourselves.
Moliere August 18, 2025 at 19:04 #1008077
Reply to T Clark They could be, though there's only one way to find out. . .

Quoting BC
But if we are going to live in a knowable world, then we need scientifically produced knowledge about ourselves.


Must said knowledge base itself on some Queen Science, or might it be the case that the physicists know about physical systems and the anthropologists know about human culture?
T Clark August 18, 2025 at 19:12 #1008078
Quoting Moliere
They could be, though there's only one way to find out. .


Sometimes when I’m in a frustrating discussion and I don’t feel like we’re making any progress I’ll say something like “I don’t think there’s any reason for us to continue this discussion.” From now on I think I’ll just say “Our positions are incommensurable.”
BC August 18, 2025 at 19:43 #1008084
Reply to javi2541997 A normal temp is 37°C; you have had a high fever. Two weeks of a high fever is cause for a visit to a doctor/ER/urgent care. Could be covid or some other virus. Influenza usually involves a fever, fatigue, aching, malaise, and a cough. It can last 2 weeks. Are those the symptoms you have had? If mainly a fever, then probably not influenza.

Did you get a vaccine shot for influenza yet? Have you been vaccinated for the childhood diseases of mumps, measles, chickenpox, rubella, and tetanus?
Hanover August 18, 2025 at 20:49 #1008109
Quoting Moliere
There's a point in there where it's also not science, either -- but anthropology sits in a difficult, rather than bullshit, position of navigating something hard to navigate, much like medicine and psychology and the rest of the human, social sciences. Do we really want a social science that is a physics of human beings, and is that more "objective" after all?


I'm fully supportive of the social sciences being considered actual sciences and I don't take the position of the engineering types (Clarky excluded) that require that everything be ultimately quantifiable. I also don't have a problem with a gray area because that's just a fact of the complexity of the world. My issue was more with anthropology, that is, it's most non-scientific branch of it, taking the approach that science need not even be in the equation.

There needs to be standards in departments, and I think allowing those that are openly non-scientific to allow in damages the field.


Hanover August 18, 2025 at 20:53 #1008110
Quoting T Clark
Sometimes when I’m in a frustrating discussion and I don’t feel like we’re making any progress I’ll say something like “I don’t think there’s any reason for us to continue this discussion.” From now on I think I’ll just say “Our positions are incommensurable.”


Perhaps try: "We have apparently reached an impasse because you're an idiot. I wish things were different." I think that might be appreciated.

I think.
Moliere August 18, 2025 at 20:54 #1008111
Quoting Hanover
I think.


It would at least be commensurable! :D
Moliere August 18, 2025 at 21:37 #1008117
Quoting Hanover
My issue was more with anthropology, that is, it's most non-scientific branch of it, taking the approach that science need not even be in the equation.


I'm in the same boat as y'all in terms of not being an anthropologist, just an interested bystander.

My thinking is that this is similar to when Pluto was reclassified -- people have emotional attachments to "Pluto is a planet" because of childhood memories of being taught that.

People have emotional attachments to "Physics is the queen of the sciences, and that means everyone needs to build a mathematically predictive system to be a science that follows the form of -- Question-Hypothesis-Data-Conclusion-Justification"

yadda yadda.

Yes, there's some truth to these simplifications, but when you start delving into a topic deeply what you start to learn are the exceptions to the rules.

And so Pluto got reclassified.

I'm thinking, though I do not know, this is similar in that it's a reclassification of practice rather than a renunciation of rigor.
Hanover August 18, 2025 at 22:07 #1008121
Quoting Moliere
I'm thinking, though I do not know, this is similar in that it's a reclassification of practice rather than a renunciation of rigor


Yeah, that's the issue. If we eliminate basic scientific epistemology, what do we replace it with to know if something is publishible, for example.


BC August 18, 2025 at 23:28 #1008136
Reply to Hanover American anthropologist and artist Tobias Schneebaum published a book quite a few years ago, Keep The River on your Right, which was about his contact with an isolated tribe in the Amazon. (They practiced cannibalism, but Scheenbaum wasn't et). He couldn't say with certainty that the tribe had never met a white / westerner before, but they were extremely curious about him. They undressed him, smelled and felt him all over, and went through his knapsack with fascination. As I recollect, three things amazed them the most: a mirror, matches, and a bit later his quick sketch of several of them. It wasn't the quickness; it was the likenesses that fascinated.

He spent months living in their vicinity. He didn't mate with their women (as far as I can remember) and he didn't go on raids of neighboring tribes, or partake in the follow up meal of enemy flesh. He learned as much as he could about them from observation and in time talking. Later, as they received more visitors (not by his instigation), they began to suffer from novel viruses they hadn't encounter. They suffered quite a bit, but they were not wiped out.

Great read. Science? Sure -- any science involves close observation, especially with the previously unknown--Amazon tribe, newly discovered planet, new disease, etc. Close systematic observation. From that stage, further study; correlate with observations of other tribal groups in similar situations, and so on.

Observation of hunter/gatherer tribes in such places as they still exist form an important basis for estimating how our early H/G ancestors might have lived. (EXCEPT THAT todays hunter/gatherers have not been 'preserved in aspic' for the last 30,000 years.]

Some sociologists have done very good studies of street-corner gangs (anthropology-like); others have studied how the various personnel in the drug trade operate. There was a very good study of who participates in public park sex in St. Louis (Laud Humphreys -- Tearoom Trade). Turns out many were married men, some with families. How Humphreys got the detailed demographic information -- identities never revealed -- was part of the resulting scandal.

Whether it counts as anthropology or sociology or New York City self-fascination, Primates of Park Avenue by Wednesday Martin recounts her efforts to assimilate into Upper East Side culture. Among other things, she describes how alpha matrons wielded Berkin bags on the street to demonstrate dominance.
T Clark August 19, 2025 at 00:42 #1008143
Reply to BC
Good examples. Studying other humans does not have to be harmful, disrespectful, or over-intrusive.
Hanover August 19, 2025 at 03:34 #1008159
Quoting T Clark
Good examples. Studying other humans does not have to be harmful, disrespectful, or over-intrusive.


It doesn't have to be, but it ought to be.
Hanover August 19, 2025 at 03:45 #1008161
Reply to BC Speaking of which, I just started a book called This is Ear Hustle. It's a prisoner's account of life in prison. I've gotten through thy first part that explains how he got himself into prison (a failed armed robbery) and is starting to navigate the system.

Intersting read. I'm more curious about the day to day details than the social justice evaluation he offers. He was a Crip from an early age with a penchant for armed robbery. He wasn't just some street hustler or pick pocket.
javi2541997 August 19, 2025 at 03:59 #1008163
Quoting BC
Are those the symptoms you have had? If mainly a fever, then probably not influenza.


No, I only have a bit of fever and I feel more tired than usual. It is 05:57 AM here, and I am already awake because it was difficult to sleep this night. I sweat a lot on the bed; I guess it is my body fighting against the virus.

Quoting BC
Have you been vaccinated for the childhood diseases of mumps, measles, chickenpox, rubella, and tetanus?


Yes! I am vaccinated. :smile:
BC August 19, 2025 at 05:19 #1008171
Reply to javi2541997 Sorry you are sick; I hope you feel better soon. Feeling good is better than feeling sick. Like good food is better than bad food.
Banno August 19, 2025 at 05:26 #1008172
Reply to javi2541997 You must have caught my cold. Sorry.

BC August 19, 2025 at 05:33 #1008173
Quoting Hanover
This is Ear Hustle
I haven't heard of the podcast. It sounds quite interesting, but I'm plowing my way through the American Revolution and War of 1812 right now. Learning tons of stuff I didn't know before. I might buy it though -- it's less than $5 on Kindle.

There were a couple of underground / independent films made back in the mid 70s - Short Eyes and Fortune In Men's Eyes. Both films concerned the unfortunate experiences of two men who were made sexual property. They were gritty, but not sexploitation films.

NPR did a feature quite a few years ago on Angola, the Louisiana Prison Farm. A couple of prisoners there had founded a prison newspaper called the Angolight. Their paper was thoughtful, community based for sure, and was respected in journalistic circles.

Criminals, police, and prisons are fascinating 'institutions', from my rocking chair perspective.
javi2541997 August 19, 2025 at 05:43 #1008176
Reply to BC I took an aspirin of Paracetamol with a big chug of blueberry juice. I feel better now.

Talking about food: I have lentils for lunch today. Some love them; others hate them. I think it is a tasty dish, actually.
javi2541997 August 19, 2025 at 05:44 #1008177
Quoting Banno
You must have caught my cold. Sorry.


This is what I thought: that Banno had something to do with my flu. But I don't have enough evidence to corroborate it.
BC August 19, 2025 at 05:57 #1008180
Reply to javi2541997 I like orange lentils -- mainly from an aesthetic POV. Much more attractive than the dirt colored ones. I like them stewed with onion, carrot, celery, and garlic over basmati rice (or other good rice). Indians make Dahl with orange lentils. Blueberries / juice are good for you. Antioxidants, phytochemical, flavonoids, etc.

Blueberries have gotten bigger this year. Not an effect of global warming. Growers are switching to bushes bearing bigger berries to increase their tonnage yield without having to expand their acreage. Fine by me.
javi2541997 August 19, 2025 at 06:25 #1008188
Reply to BC Yes, I am up for purchasing some orange, lemon, and strawberry juices. I believe Don Simón makes excellent and flavourful ones. My body seems to be asking for them.

Sadly, my lentils are the dirt-colored variety, not the gorgeous orange of Indian food.
Banno August 19, 2025 at 07:19 #1008197
Reply to BC Pea and ham soup. Lentils and pig. Excellent stuff. I haven't made any this year, might have to buy some hocks.

Quoting javi2541997
Banno had something to do with my flu.

Perhaps you should wear a mask when on the forum.

Hanover August 19, 2025 at 09:41 #1008208
Quoting Banno
Perhaps you should wear a mask when on the forum.


Found the perfect one:
User image

DifferentiatingEgg August 19, 2025 at 18:50 #1008263
Saw a meme today that was a pretty fun reversal of perspectives: what if plants are farming us? Feed us to grow until we die and decompose?
jorndoe August 19, 2025 at 19:48 #1008271
Close call on Jul 15, 2025:

White House Evacuated After Trans Alarm Goes Off

Hegseth wasn't fired over the incident.
Democrats are expected to be blamed.
Banno August 19, 2025 at 21:12 #1008283
Reply to jorndoe Frightening.
Moliere August 19, 2025 at 21:17 #1008286
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg Heh. Spores from the mushrooms tell us to take care of dogs and cats in order to grow more cellulose which the fun guys can then consume.

It could be the case. Evolution isn't as speciest as we tend to be.
BC August 19, 2025 at 22:32 #1008291
One might ask where VISUAL CAPITALIST gets its facts, but here is a graph from VC ranking the sources of AIs like Chatgpt. Reddit? Why? How reliable a source do you think Reddit is? Wikipedia is a source I trust much more than Reddit. But one would think, given the vast sucking capacity of AI, that it might have other primary sources. Or maybe those are the best sources, given the kinds of queries it gets.

User image
Wayfarer August 19, 2025 at 23:32 #1008302
Q: Hey Claude, is it true that the largest source of data for LLMs training models is Reddit?

Claude AI: No, that's not accurate. While Reddit is certainly used as a training data source for many large language models, it's not the largest source. The training data for LLMs typically comes from a much more diverse mix of sources.

The largest sources are usually:

  • Common Crawl (web crawl data from across the internet)
  • Books and literature collections
  • News articles and journalistic content
  • Academic papers and journals
  • Wikipedia and other reference materials
  • Various other web content


Reddit does provide valuable conversational and discussion data, but it represents just one component of the training mix. The exact composition varies between different models and companies, and most don't publish detailed breakdowns of their training data sources for competitive and other reasons.
Common Crawl, which contains text from billions of web pages, is typically cited as one of the largest single sources when companies do share information about their training datasets.
Hanover August 19, 2025 at 23:41 #1008306
Reply to BC ChatGPT tells me you can tell it which sites to pull from and which to ignore. I've turned off the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and prioritized the Shoutbox. No more living in that bullshit shadow.
Moliere August 19, 2025 at 23:55 #1008307
Reply to Hanover Wow. You have put down the one holy book amongst us and opted for the voice of the shoutbox.

Ought I praise this, or . . .?
Banno August 20, 2025 at 01:17 #1008317
Reply to Moliere His actions make sense, given Hanover's preference for folly.
Hanover August 20, 2025 at 14:15 #1008392
It does remain a real question though where AI obtains its underlying facts and reasoning abilities. Each of us contributes to some degree, and I'd like to know that I'm doing my share to make it as unreliable as possible so as to preserve myself a job. Let's all commit to feeding the beast poison.

I read somewhere that efforts are being made to save data obtained prior to AI. We will look back on it fondly one day, remembering how we used to think prior to AI tainting us.
javi2541997 August 20, 2025 at 17:36 #1008433
Finished chopping an old pine off a local fence. The wood is strong, juicy and omnipotent. There is a considerable amount of wooden logs, and I would like to share them. If you would like to cook pork on the stove or warm yourself with it, send an email to [email protected]

Don't be afraid to ask!

User image
Tom Storm August 20, 2025 at 21:21 #1008474
Quoting javi2541997
The wood is strong, juicy and omnipotent


I had wood like that once. Oh, to be young again.
Hanover August 20, 2025 at 21:22 #1008475
Quoting javi2541997
Finished chopping an old pine off a local fence.


That looks cut with a chain saw, not chopped.
Banno August 20, 2025 at 21:30 #1008478
Quoting Hanover
We will look back on it fondly one day, remembering how we used to think prior to AI tainting us.


Only if the AI tells us to.
Banno August 20, 2025 at 21:32 #1008480
Reply to Tom Storm :snicker:
BC August 21, 2025 at 01:15 #1008514
Reply to Wayfarer 3 questions (to which you might or might not know the answers)

1) What is the difference between "training material" and reference material for a LLM?
2) Some AI systems work with visual material -- for instance, identifying pathology in CT scans or cancer cells in slides. How does the training to "see things" compare to the training for understanding text?

I asked Google how many aristocrats were guillotined during the Terror; its AI answer came from Reddit. I followed the provided link to the Reddit post which had provided documentation (French source) for the number.

3) Why wouldn't the AI check French sources first, rather than a social media post in Reddit? Presumably it has sucked up everything in print on earth.

BC August 21, 2025 at 01:23 #1008515
Reply to javi2541997 Oh, you're a lumberjack!

This MUST be posted.

Wayfarer August 21, 2025 at 02:17 #1008526
Reply to BC ChatGPT's review of your question.

My impression of the AI feature in Google Search is that it acts as a kind of concierge with a summary overview, followed by links to further sources. I think you get a different and more in-depth response from the actual engines themselves. If you go to gemini.google.com you could ask it for a research report on such a question, which it will spend some considerable period of time compilling, such as a research report on one of Ian Stevenson's 'children with past life memories' cases I had compied here.
javi2541997 August 21, 2025 at 04:22 #1008541
Quoting BC
Oh, you're a lumberjack!

This MUST be posted.


Monty Python always has a sketch about the most random or unexpected situation!

Barkon August 21, 2025 at 08:35 #1008559
Philosophy is partly about giving sense to concrete concepts in nature. An example, the latest Dimension thread on this forum, where OP tries to make the concept of dimension make more sense as to be discussed further.

Is this what study of fundamental nature means, partly?

Fund- ? root, base, ground (think foundation, funds as resources that support).

-a- ? often just a connector, but can feel like a breath or hinge between parts.

-ment- ? linked to mind, mental, also cement—suggests something solidified, thought-through or fixed.

-al ? “of the nature of,” or “relating to.”
javi2541997 August 21, 2025 at 09:35 #1008567
Quoting Barkon
Philosophy is partly about giving sense to concrete concepts in nature.


Philosophy is about writing children's literature for adults.
Barkon August 21, 2025 at 09:43 #1008568
Reply to javi2541997 that aside, it could also be used to give sense to concrete concepts in nature.

Nature - an other that has encapsulated you.
javi2541997 August 21, 2025 at 09:56 #1008569
Reply to Barkon

The way you are repeating yourself makes me wonder whether you are a bot or not.
Barkon August 21, 2025 at 09:58 #1008570
Reply to javi2541997 could be that you have a poor mind.
javi2541997 August 21, 2025 at 10:10 #1008571
Quoting Barkon
could be that you have a poor mind.


That's true, actually.
Barkon August 21, 2025 at 10:12 #1008572
Reply to javi2541997 be it as it may, it's actually what I first thought.
javi2541997 August 21, 2025 at 10:16 #1008574
Reply to Barkon Barkon!

Why did you get upset? I think you are an interesting bot. At least you are more emotional-orientated rather than process-orientated, not like the overrated Chat GPT.
Barkon August 21, 2025 at 10:18 #1008575
Reply to javi2541997 I suppose it can be left at that--- I'm fine--- worried at best.

Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot.
T Clark August 21, 2025 at 17:51 #1008637
I say persnickety, but apparently those Brits say pernickety. Fucking Brits.
Banno August 21, 2025 at 22:12 #1008702
Quoting Barkon
Is this what study of fundamental nature means, partly?


Fun - as in a good time

Da - as in "Doh" (Mr Simpson)

Mental - relating to a disorders mind.
Sir2u August 21, 2025 at 22:48 #1008708
Quoting T Clark
I say persnickety, but apparently those Brits say pernickety. Fucking Brits.


Wonderful example of how to use the word pernickety. Efen YankeeDoogles!!
T Clark August 21, 2025 at 23:22 #1008714
Quoting Sir2u
Wonderful example of how to use the word pernickety. Efen YankeeDoogles!!


Persnickety people don’t say “fucking.” Perhaps pernickety ones do.
DifferentiatingEgg August 21, 2025 at 23:28 #1008716
Dinner was perfectly seared salmon, over a bed of spinach and herb roasted potatoes, with red onion, sliced kalamata olives, feta, cucumber, and roasted cherry tomatoes, with a tzatziki and herbed vinaigrette sauce.



Outlander August 21, 2025 at 23:39 #1008719
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg

We'll have to take your word for it, I suppose. Sigh. How hard is it to snap a simple photo? :eyes:
DifferentiatingEgg August 21, 2025 at 23:46 #1008722
Reply to Outlander I don't subscribe so I'm not cool enough to post pictures. But I sent pictures to friends cause well we play an unspoken game of making each other jealous and inspired with healthy and delicious meals. Salmon's pretty easy to sear perfectly, 4 minutes skin side up around the 7.5 range salt the skin, flip for another 4. Don't play with it, just leave it flat in its spont and it will get that perfect dark orange crust.
Outlander August 21, 2025 at 23:57 #1008723
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg

Old fashioned, I see! How refreshing. :wink:

Try imgur.com (you just drag and drop if on a PC) ... eh don't worry about it none.

Looking over bank statements and was reminded I'm a subscriber to Shudder, an American horror/suspense/thriller streaming media platform. Back from my junkie days (2 years ago).

Generally avoid such subject matter but I do enjoy the supernatural "creature feature" type movies as well as the intellectual thriller type genre.

They apparently have a new thing called "Shudder TV", which is basically just a live stream of one movie at a time.

Right now it's "House of the Devil", which, again, I tend to avoid such needless forms of so-called "entertainment" (life is scary enough if you know where to look).

It's pretty cliche yet very good cinematics. Young college girl babysitting, only the guy lied it's to "keep an eye" on his aging mother. Pretty normal if not naturally eccentric with age old man with his (relatively attractive wife) made everything normal so far.

The main character is now checking on the mother since she heard a noise, oh no.. the violin music is intensifying, what's going to happen! Oh God, I can't watch! :grimace: :lol:
DifferentiatingEgg August 22, 2025 at 00:39 #1008729
Reply to Outlander
Buzzing in the sky, floating on the wind so fly,
Looking at the world like an insect,
Crawling through the dust, bound by lust unchecked,
Got Cleopatra licking on my chakra,
Visions so sacra, life's indecisions gotcha,
I'm a symbol of rebirth, takin yo shit as a dung-hearth,
I'll devour your cherub, I'm the one and only Scarab!
Moliere August 22, 2025 at 00:44 #1008730
DifferentiatingEgg August 22, 2025 at 01:03 #1008740
Reply to Moliere lol, i had the line "licking on my chakra," floating out in my head and rhymezone only returned sacra and Cleopatra as rhymes I found acceptable for using.
Moliere August 22, 2025 at 01:06 #1008742
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg I myself have used thesauruses, dictionaries, and rhyming dictionaries in writing poetry.

Some people manage to carry the unstructured poem, but I prefer to rely upon the structure of rhyme and rhythm.

I've even found new thoughts by doing so -- in a way it feels like I have a "muse" telling me something new.

"finding acceptable" -- that's a good skill for writing poems. Use the resources, of course, but making the selection of word choice is where it's at.
Banno August 22, 2025 at 01:06 #1008743
Wide caught or farmed?
Metaphysician Undercover August 22, 2025 at 01:32 #1008746
Quoting BC
One might ask where VISUAL CAPITALIST gets its facts, but here is a graph from VC ranking the sources of AIs like Chatgpt. Reddit? Why? How reliable a source do you think Reddit is? Wikipedia is a source I trust much more than Reddit. But one would think, given the vast sucking capacity of AI, that it might have other primary sources. Or maybe those are the best sources, given the kinds of queries it gets.


I don't know, those percentages add up to a lot more than 100. Typical AI, it likes to streeeeetch the truth.
jorndoe August 22, 2025 at 01:43 #1008748
Neat that it can return to its recharging station. Can you teach it new tricks? Has anyone equipped it with a shotgun yet? Makes you wonder how far military applications are.

Unitree Go2 Robodog Starts at Just $1,600 (Jul 22, 2023)



DifferentiatingEgg August 22, 2025 at 01:48 #1008749
Reply to Banno, it's funny how you've made it a thing to reply using people's names as little as possible. You've even got others catching on, but I don't farm Reddit for Karma either, and my ego is secure without playing that game.

However, to answer your question: farm raised. And yes it's beautifully dark and marbled, no dyes. The store I shop from is one of those snobby stores that bans products containing anything from a long list of junk.

Comes from "Superior Fresh" farms.
T Clark August 22, 2025 at 02:44 #1008755
Quoting jorndoe
Neat that it can return to its recharging station. Can you teach it new tricks? Has anyone equipped it with a shotgun yet? Makes you wonder how far military applications are.


I think there are already military dog drones.
Banno August 22, 2025 at 03:52 #1008760
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg Can’t say as I do.
BC August 22, 2025 at 06:17 #1008778
Quoting jorndoe
Makes you wonder how far military applications are


I'm sure several militaries are thinking about it, but it might not be ready for a war yet -- it should be able to go up and down stairs competently, for instance. Is strong enough to carry explosives? Could it detect and dig up, or expose landmines? (Trained rats do quite well at detecting landmines.) What can it do that small drones can't do?

javi2541997 August 22, 2025 at 06:56 #1008782
Vegetables are definitely a good combination with fish and jam. I will ask the owner of the grocery shop for a good blueberry jar of jam. People eat jam just at breakfast, but I honestly believe that you can eat it whenever you want. Taking jam for breakfast is just a social-imposed practice that lasted centuries, but now times are changing.

Now that I am talking about jam, it came to my mind @kazan. I miss him. I wish he is doing good.
Barkon August 22, 2025 at 10:11 #1008792
Reply to Banno It all creates a field. Volcano. Voila can oh?!... Oh, Homer Simpson, DOH. Semantics, semi and ticks. Semi and tics. Say my antics.

There are some maleficent words in there, semantics is one. Fundamental another. Subjective another.
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 10:12 #1008793
Quoting javi2541997
Now that I am talking about jam,


I read with great interest your discussion of jam. Do you hold the same opinions of jellies and preserves?

My mother limited us to jam when we were young, claiming difficulty in spreading jellies evenly on bread. When I came of age and had the freedom, I like most newly minted adults immediately bought me some jelly, cigarettes, malt liquor, and lottery tickets. The frustration of uneven spread was real, but offset by the euphoria of drunken lottery winnings, but I must say, mother was right. Jelly is unfit. Do you agree?
javi2541997 August 22, 2025 at 10:39 #1008795
Reply to Hanover Yes, I agree with the point that your mother had. Jellies are dispensable and the taste is not enough to impress our sense of taste. Furthermore, the companies that manufacture these products tend to be opaque, and they don't explain how they elaborate the jelly. Meanwhile, jam is based on products which come directly from nature: blueberries, strawberries, apples, pears... When I was in Ireland and Scotland, I tasted a jam with orange and whisky. Could you even dream this in a jelly?
DifferentiatingEgg August 22, 2025 at 11:31 #1008798
When you have nothing for yourself to the point you need to politicize other peoples lives... talk about a hollow existence.
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 11:39 #1008799
Reply to javi2541997 Jelly, Jam, Preserves, Marmalade, Fruit butter (e.g., apple butter), Conserve, Compote, Chutney, Fruit curd (e.g., lemon curd), Fruit paste (e.g., quince paste / membrillo), Syrup.

Discuss.
javi2541997 August 22, 2025 at 13:03 #1008812
Reply to Hanover Wait.

What's the difference between jam and marmalade? I thought they were the same but with different names.

I love membrillo and syrup.
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 13:35 #1008817
Quoting javi2541997
What's the difference between jam and marmalade? I thought they were the same but with different names.


"Both jam and marmalade are made through a similar process of cooking fruit and sugar. In the end, the difference lies in two things: the amount of fruit in the final product and the consistency. Jam is a bit lumpy and may contain seeds, but not many actual bits of fruit. Citrusy marmalade will have bits of fruit and rind dotted throughout or will be completely chunky."

https://www.allrecipes.com/marmalade-vs-jam-difference-7480111

The variations in fruit preservation are endless.
frank August 22, 2025 at 13:50 #1008822
Quoting Hanover
The variations in fruit preservation are endless.


It probably ends eventually. Everybody will be sitting around looking at each other.
javi2541997 August 22, 2025 at 14:01 #1008826
Quoting Hanover
The variations in fruit preservation are endless


:up: :up:

Thanks for the explanation.

We only use one word for both: mermelada -- it is similar to "marmalade"

User image

But whether it is marmalade or jam we agree that these go better with pasta than jelly, right?
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 15:22 #1008837
Quoting javi2541997
But whether it is marmalade or jam we agree that these go better with pasta than jelly, right?


The only sweet pasta I've ever had is kugel.
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 19:05 #1008862
Here's a quick refernce guide so that you can know the difference between the different sorts of fruit treats:

Jelly: fruit juice + sugar
Jam: chopped or pureed fruit + sugar
Chutney: chopped or pureed fruit + sugar + vinegar + spices
Preserves: whole fruit or fruit chunks + sugar
Marmalade: whole citrus (either chopped or left intact) + sugar
Compote: whole fruit or fruit chunks + sugar (but usually eaten immediately, not preserved)

https://www.whatsthediff.org/blog/2018/05/15/whats-the-difference-between-jam-jelly-preserves-compote-marmalade-and-chutney/#:~:text=Its%20texture%20is%20usually%20looser,is%20usually%20used%20straight%20away.&text=If%20you%20liked%20this%2C%20subscribe,What's%20the%20Difference%20newsletter%20here!

I recently opened a restaurant, Maison des Fruits de Hanovre, specializing in delicious fruit stewed concoctions as described above. We've won a number of awards for our Assiette de fruits mélangés en folie, sur glace parfum champignon * . It's a mixture of the jelly, jam, chutney, etc into a single bowl served with a scoop of an earthy mushroom flavored ice cream. And by "number of awards," remember that zero is a number.

* "A crazy plate of mixed fruits, on mushroom-flavored ice cream."






T Clark August 22, 2025 at 19:56 #1008869
Quoting Hanover
Fruits de Hanovre


According to Google:

Google AI Overview:"Fruits of Hanover" refers to agricultural products, specifically the blueberries grown in Hanover, MA, and the well-known Hanover Foods company, a producer of canned goods since 1924, that was started in Hanover, PA. The phrase can also refer to the local tomatoes from Hanover, VA, celebrated at the annual Hanover Tomato Festival.
Outlander August 22, 2025 at 19:56 #1008870
All you need to know is, jelly goes on peanut butter sandwiches, and jam is those little packets you get that comes with your toast.

Nobody really knows what chutney is or tries to make it let alone eat it, except for people trying to be more cultured than they really are who pretend they can tell a difference between it and jam when they really cannot.

Preserves are for old people, similar to marmalade but the latter being exclusively for old British people trying to feel young again.

Anything else is just an invention invented simply for the sake of inventing that nobody really asked for or would know the difference between anyhow.

And yeah, that's basically how and what it is. Simple, eh?
Hanover August 22, 2025 at 20:05 #1008871
Reply to T Clark I am well aware of the history of my company. We began in Hanover, MA, then expanded into Pennsylvania, where we started the famed Snyders Pretzel Company. Following the Great Tribulations, the Hanoverian pioneers moved southward, swaying too far east and losing a good number to the unforgiving tides of the Atlantic. Those that survived mated frantically to maintain our numbers, and that is the tale of the Hanover.

My ancestory is a troubled but heroic one. I look forward to dining with you in our Great Dining Hall.

BC August 22, 2025 at 21:10 #1008881
Quoting Outlander
Preserves are for old people, similar to marmalade


Orange marmalade is 1 step away from disgusting. Old people eat it because they have lost most of their taste buds.

Quoting Outlander
invented simply for the sake of inventing that nobody really asked for


Tampering with honey, for example. There is no reason on earth to add hot pepper to honey.

Hot and sour soup doesn't come in cans (as far as I know); I love it, despite my suspicion that it is made out of whatever came back to the kitchen on plates.
Banno August 22, 2025 at 23:09 #1008895
Outlander August 22, 2025 at 23:19 #1008896
Banno August 22, 2025 at 23:23 #1008898
Outlander August 22, 2025 at 23:37 #1008899
Well. Still, one can only marvel at what led to the sudden decrease of marmalade in popular writings.

Not to make it seem like those with resources and means to publish successful books correlate with the zeitgeist or popularity of the tongue of the average person.
Hanover August 23, 2025 at 00:21 #1008906
Reply to Outlander From that graph, had I bought Marmalade at its low in the 1950s, I'd be a millionaire now.
Metaphysician Undercover August 23, 2025 at 00:51 #1008910
Quoting BC
Tampering with honey, for example.


Don't be hasty in this declaration. Mead is probably one of the oldest human inventions, dating back before the invention of corn, and maybe even as far back as the invention of the dog (and I'm not talking robots). Sure, a pot of active yeast is disgusting but... Sometimes, disgusting can be good.
Sir2u August 23, 2025 at 02:16 #1008915
Quoting T Clark
Persnickety people don’t say “fucking.” Perhaps pernickety ones do.


Now you are giving an example of nitpicking. :lol:
BC August 23, 2025 at 02:37 #1008916
Quoting Hanover
Marmalade at its low


Marmalade hit a low, alright, November of 69, in the form of the band, "Marmalade". Their song, "Reflections of My Life" is just too limp and vague, employing words, phrases, and melodies that don't connect. It might be great if you did't speak a word of English.

T Clark August 23, 2025 at 03:25 #1008920
Quoting Sir2u
Now you are giving an example of nitpicking.


I never said I wasn’t nitpicking.
DifferentiatingEgg August 23, 2025 at 03:42 #1008922
The dam of slave morality is breaking such that people crave firms of expression where strength, pride, and vitality are no longer taboo.
BC August 23, 2025 at 04:56 #1008924
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Mead is probably one


It was very popular among Anglo Saxons in their "Mead Halls". Sadly we are reduced to bars, beer halls, and bistros -- not much mead, these days.
BC August 23, 2025 at 05:00 #1008926
A gold plated chip INTEL factory

User image
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 10:48 #1008958
In Scotland eating smoked haddock that I poached in buttered milk.
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 10:53 #1008959
Reply to BC

Medovukha is quite popular in Russia, but in a self-consciously olde worlde kind of way, particularly in the medieval Golden Ring.

In any case, I like it.
javi2541997 August 23, 2025 at 12:04 #1008966
Quoting Jamal
In Scotland eating smoked haddock that I poached in buttered milk.


Yummy! :yum:

I love smoked haddock (bacalao ahumado). I usually eat it with ali-oli.

Jamal August 23, 2025 at 12:07 #1008967
Reply to javi2541997

:yum:

I sometimes eat mine with a poached egg.
Metaphysician Undercover August 23, 2025 at 12:51 #1008972
Reply to Jamal
Check this out, from your linked article:

"Fermentation occurs naturally over 15 to 50 years, originally rendering the product very expensive and only accessible to the nobility. "

That brings a totally new dimension to "slow fermentation".
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 12:58 #1008973
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

Understandably, they didn't have the patience for that and worked out they could bring the fermentation period down to under a month.
unenlightened August 23, 2025 at 13:40 #1008980
Reply to Jamal The wretched bees put yeast inhibiters in their honey, and I found mead hard to ferment, compared with apples, grapes, or malt. Took me more than a month, but less than 15 years. But not worth the effort. Removing the sweetness from honey, leaves not very much; something not as nice as wine, and much more expensive. Put honey on your toast instead of marmalade, and drink wine. Put marmalade on your pork or duck.
DifferentiatingEgg August 23, 2025 at 14:25 #1008992
I've not written very much in cursive in at least 25 years, pretty crazy how quickly it returns. All the busy work of writing up bs reports during inschool suspension in middle school paying off in muscle memory.
javi2541997 August 23, 2025 at 14:59 #1008994
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
"Fermentation occurs naturally over 15 to 50 years, originally rendering the product very expensive and only accessible to the nobility. "


Understandable why some whisky brands are so expensive.
T Clark August 23, 2025 at 17:05 #1009012
Quoting BC
It was very popular among Anglo Saxons in their "Mead Halls". Sadly we are reduced to bars, beer halls, and bistros -- not much mead, these days.


You can usually find it around here at hoity-toity beer places. The kind I like is not sweet at all and has a nice little bite to it.
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 17:37 #1009015
Reply to unenlightened

Sounds like sour grapes!
Hanover August 23, 2025 at 17:44 #1009016
I enjoy a chilled glass of pruno while on the yard.
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 18:05 #1009019
Reply to Hanover

Be careful, for the unsanitary conditions and potential for contamination during pruno production can lead to serious health risks, including botulism.

But that's not me talking. I hadn't heard of it before
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 18:08 #1009021
Quoting javi2541997
Understandable why some whisky brands are so expensive.


For whisky, the fermentation doesn't take long. The ageing is a process of maturation and enrichment taking place in barrels after fermentation.
javi2541997 August 23, 2025 at 19:00 #1009028
Quoting Jamal
The ageing is a process of maturation and enrichment taking place in barrels after fermentation.


:up: :up:

And a good quantity of water quality is also important, exactly like the one that exists in Scotland.
Jamal August 23, 2025 at 19:25 #1009032
Reply to javi2541997

Yes, I had some today. :yum:
Outlander August 23, 2025 at 22:11 #1009043
Quoting Hanover
I enjoy a chilled glass of pruno while on the yard.


Fun fact, death row inmate (and award-winning author) Jarvis Jay Masters wrote a poem (or something) describing his favorite recipe for pruno. It won an award.

As an inquisitive sort who likes trying new things I see it likely at some point in my life I will attempt something like that. You know, "just to see what it's like."

I have a younger cousin who spent some time in jail who tells me another popular method involves crumbled bits of potato chips.

Sure we might look down on things like "prison wine" as gross, desperate, and pathetic from the outside. But it still hearkens back to the ingenuity of the human spirit as well as the historical discovery and origins of one of mankind's most popular and sought after food and drink.

Someone should make a documentary about that. Imagine it. "The History of Drunkenness."
L'éléphant August 24, 2025 at 03:23 #1009073
Quoting Hanover
Jelly: fruit juice + sugar
Jam: chopped or pureed fruit + sugar
Chutney: chopped or pureed fruit + sugar + vinegar + spices
Preserves: whole fruit or fruit chunks + sugar
Marmalade: whole citrus (either chopped or left intact) + sugar
Compote: whole fruit or fruit chunks + sugar (but usually eaten immediately, not preserved)

The list above have their ingredients in the wrong order. Sugar is always first, second are the fruits.
Hanover August 24, 2025 at 04:06 #1009080
Quoting Outlander
But it still hearkens back to the ingenuity of the human spirit as well as the historical discovery and origins of one of mankind's most popular and sought after food and drink.


What you celebrate isn't ingenuity, but the forces of addiction and need for escape.
BC August 24, 2025 at 05:24 #1009089
Quoting Hanover
What you celebrate isn't ingenuity, but the forces of addiction and need for escape.


In Deuteronomy 14:26 it God himself says, with respect to being unable to make it to the Temple to celebrate,

You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


So, if God himself is in favor of strong drink, who is Hanover to be against it?
Jamal August 24, 2025 at 05:26 #1009090
Quoting Hanover
What you celebrate isn't ingenuity, but the forces of addiction and need for escape.


Or both.
frank August 24, 2025 at 10:24 #1009123
Quoting BC
So, if God himself is in favor of strong drink, who is Hanover to be against it?


Bread and wine are the earliest cases of food preservation.
javi2541997 August 24, 2025 at 10:51 #1009129
Quoting frank
Bread and wine are the earliest cases of food preservation.


I also believe beer. Alcoholic beverages have always been very important to preserve and bear very long journeys.
Metaphysician Undercover August 24, 2025 at 11:53 #1009134
Excuse me now, I'm off to seek the sacred soma, perhaps the very foundation of civilization.

It's a difficult journey to make, because the stories are so old, they're prior to writing. And when you're intoxicated memory is not so reliable. Consistency is found in the will to do it again, and the drive to make it better than the last time.
frank August 24, 2025 at 12:48 #1009138
Quoting javi2541997
I also believe beer. Alcoholic beverages have always been very important to preserve and bear very long journeys.


Nobody wants to venture down the silk road without a cold six pack.
frank August 24, 2025 at 13:45 #1009148
Hanover August 24, 2025 at 15:25 #1009166
Quoting BC
, if God himself is in favor of strong drink, who is Hanover to be against it?


I've not taken an anti-strong drink position. I just questioned the thesis thar pruno production was an example of human perseverance over adversity and suggest perhaps that this unquenchable need for intoxication might be the cause for the prunomeister's incarcerated predicament.

However, I do see I've struck a nerve here in taking a less than positive take on the drink. I didn't mean to insult anyone's dear friend.
BC August 24, 2025 at 20:21 #1009216
Reply to frank I very much enjoyed the cartoon about round animals. Thanks.

Beer or wine arose according to dominant agriculture. Where grapes were grown, it was wine. Where grain was predominant, it was beer.

When the German tribes were integrated into the Roman Empire, they became big customers for Roman wines. Their forested acreage wasn't great for grain, so German beer had to have been a later development. And thank heavens for that! I've always found beer to be safer and more effective than wine.

We would probably consider a lot of what ancient people drank as adulterated slop. People mixed wine with all sorts of stuff, some of it sounds OK, some of sounds terrible. Beer didn't have the benefit of hops until the 9th century (a.d.), but before that they used other stuff to flavor beer. What, exactly, I don't know. Garlic? Parsley? Sage? Rosemary? Thyme? Who knows.
Metaphysician Undercover August 24, 2025 at 21:46 #1009232
Quoting BC
Parsley? Sage? Rosemary? Thyme?


By any chance, are you going to Scarborough Fair?
frank August 24, 2025 at 21:58 #1009238
Quoting BC
And thank heavens for that! I've always found beer to be safer and more effective than wine.


I love sangria though. Mmmm.
BC August 24, 2025 at 22:17 #1009244
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Yes, for the beer garden -- where the beer is 100% free of garlic, P, S, R, & T, or Simon, Garfunkel, and all other folk singing groups. None of them ferment well, so leave them out.
Pfhorrest August 25, 2025 at 07:29 #1009315
Reply to Outlander You can see when I'm just looking at the forum somehow? I glance over here about once a week just to see if anything relevant to me is going on.
Jamal August 25, 2025 at 07:31 #1009316
Reply to Pfhorrest

Members > Online
javi2541997 August 25, 2025 at 08:50 #1009327
Reply to Pfhorrest

Outlander is probably following you, and he knows whenever you are online in his "following list."
Metaphysician Undercover August 25, 2025 at 11:58 #1009351
This place is full of fucking stalkers.
Hanover August 25, 2025 at 12:26 #1009354
Quoting BC
Beer or wine arose according to dominant agriculture. Where grapes were grown, it was wine. Where grain was predominant, it was beer.


In some cultures grain turns to flesh and wine to blood. In my religion that I'm thinking about creating, I'll put a grape on your tongue and it will turn to blood and then you'll drink the flesh when you take a sip of beer. It will be wheat beer, citrusy and refreshing.

I'll open across the street from a regular church so maybe I can take some of their customers. I feel like if all religious institutions competed for business, we'd have better religions. As it is now, people are overly committed to whatever they started with and religions have gotten lazy, taking their customers for granted. With my beer oriented religion, I think that might change things, especially in the summer when a cold wheat beer would hit the spot.



Hanover August 25, 2025 at 13:02 #1009362
Quoting L'éléphant
The list above have their ingredients in the wrong order. Sugar is always first, second are the fruits.


Like you're an ingredients priority expert.

And it should be "has," not "have." Being corrected doesn't feel so good does it?
L'éléphant August 26, 2025 at 02:34 #1009521
Quoting Hanover
Like you're an ingredients priority expert.

And it should be "has," not "have." Being corrected doesn't feel so good does it?

Sourness is a thief of relaxed conversation, Hanover.

I don't mind being corrected. If you want to talk about grammar, that is fine too.

In fact, I read ingredients all the time and see the percentages they are used in foods.
(for health reasons). Though, I don't mean to say I don't eat unhealthy ingredients. I eat them from time to time.

For example, Nitrates and nitrates in cured meats! Let's talk about this. One food label said they don't use these ingredients. Instead they use celery juice. Researchers have shown that celery juice is no different. It acts the same way as nitrates and nitrites even though they come from a healthy source -- celery. (I couldn't object as I am not a researcher myself).
javi2541997 August 26, 2025 at 04:18 #1009555
Quoting L'éléphant
In fact, I read ingredients all the time and see the percentages they are used in foods.
(for health reasons).


I do the same. Furthermore, I also check the "traffic light" of each product. If it is a green-coloured A everything is OK, and I will probably buy it; but if it is a red-coloured E, it makes me doubt the quality of the product.

I believe it is called "nutri-score."

User image
DifferentiatingEgg August 26, 2025 at 04:57 #1009559
Quoting Hanover
Being corrected doesn't feel so good does it?
Even if that's sarcasm... One of my favorite 1liners by Nietzsche has remedied that for me to appreciate it.

"The charm of knowledge would be slight were there not so much embarrassment to overcome on the route to knowledge." Take the embarrassment and roll with it as if it were them doing you a favor. After all, the other party took time out of their life and gifted it to you.

Reply to javi2541997
Errr, think all of those are D?
Hanover August 26, 2025 at 09:52 #1009580
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Even if that's sarcasm..


It was.
DifferentiatingEgg August 26, 2025 at 15:34 #1009618
Nietzsche's will to power is often misunderstood as a desire for power or domination. Since all life is WtP this entails that even a seed, something that cannot covet power, has its own. To understand WtP one needs to first understand that the will is only a unity in title. Willing is a plurality of contrasting sensations. Each carries a ruling thought, this complex of sensation and thinking is above all an emotion of the commanding tyranny of drives. The greater number of contrasting drives/forces creates a "taller" rank ordering of drives. The drives at the summit of this rank ordering at the holders of power over the other drives. The more drives mean the drives at the top have to struggle to overcome that many other drives, creating a stronger drive. It's these drives that are the self determining drives one ought to differentiate through.
praxis August 26, 2025 at 17:44 #1009643
Quoting Pfhorrest
I glance over here about once a week just to see if anything relevant to me is going on.


Now I feel irrelevant.
Hanover August 26, 2025 at 19:21 #1009657
Quoting L'éléphant
Sourness is a thief of relaxed conversation, Hanover.


I was just being my endearing playful self, but perhaps I was misunderstood. Me apologies.
frank August 26, 2025 at 20:03 #1009664
Quoting L'éléphant
Sourness is a thief of relaxed conversations


What does it do with them? Sell them on ebay?
Banno August 26, 2025 at 23:34 #1009755
Sourness is a culinary delight, sharpening and refreshing the pallet. Where children prefer sweetness, perhaps sourness is for mature tastes, or those with fortitude. But there is much of value in bringing out contrasts.
Hanover August 27, 2025 at 00:12 #1009766
I've been furiously boiling these rutabegas in chicken broth for quite some time, and they're finally softening. I read they are a healthier alternative to potatoes, but they start out hard as a rock.

User image
Banno August 27, 2025 at 00:28 #1009773
Reply to Hanover Swedes are horrid. Just get some spuds.
Outlander August 27, 2025 at 00:40 #1009777
Quoting Hanover
rutabegas


I have not heard a human being (or whatever you are, what with your grossly out of proportion intellect) speak that word in quite some time. Thank you. It reminds me of a better time.
Hanover August 27, 2025 at 00:49 #1009780
I feel like mashing them with maple syrup might make sense. Butter and pepper as well. I'll eat them regardless because I never admit defeat.
T Clark August 27, 2025 at 01:48 #1009810
Quoting Hanover
I feel like mashing them with maple syrup might make sense. Butter and pepper as well. I'll eat them regardless because I never admit defeat.


In my experience, rutabagas have a bit of a bitter taste. It’s not bad, but it definitely is an acquired taste. With pertaters around, I’ve never felt the need to acquire it.
Metaphysician Undercover August 27, 2025 at 01:56 #1009812
Quoting Hanover
I feel like mashing them with maple syrup might make sense.


Maple syrup always makes sense. Next time, try using turnips. Rutabagas are cattle feed and taste like wood, fresh turnips are sweet and delicious.
Hanover August 27, 2025 at 04:03 #1009838
Quoting Outlander
I have not heard a human being (or whatever you are, what with your grossly out of proportion intellect) speak that word in quite some time. Thank you. It reminds me of a better time


Sentimentality evoked from the posting of a pot of boiling rutebegas. Not entirely expected, but it makes complete sense in a totally Shoutboxy way.
Hanover August 27, 2025 at 04:11 #1009840
Quoting T Clark
In my experience, rutabagas have a bit of a bitter taste. It’s not bad, but it definitely is an acquired taste. With pertaters around, I’ve never felt the need to acquire it.


A rutebega story for you:

When traveling through Iceland, I encountered kjötsúpa, a lamb and root vegetable stew, chock full of rutebega. It was all you could eat from a large pot in the back of a gas station and food was expensive there, so I ate until I got sick.

And that began my lifelong love affair with the rutebega.

DifferentiatingEgg August 27, 2025 at 04:18 #1009841
Reply to Hanover Might as well just do sweet potatoes?
javi2541997 August 27, 2025 at 04:26 #1009845
Quoting T Clark
In my experience, rutabagas have a bit of a bitter taste


They have a bitter taste, indeed. For this reason, I always used sauces to eat rutabagas. Eating them alone could be a non-delightful experience. Rutabaga soup is tasty and good, though.

Quoting Banno
Swedes are horrid. Just get some spuds.


This is what I thought, but Banno was faster than me (as usual). Baked potatoes ("spuds") are a better friend than rutabagas!
BC August 27, 2025 at 05:47 #1009856
Reply to javi2541997 There is nothing inadequate about rutabagas. Normally they have a touch of sweetness, whether raw or cooked. This is a rare song about vegetables by Frank Zappa which also, very rare, mentions prunes and rutabagas.

javi2541997 August 27, 2025 at 06:46 #1009868
Reply to BC Absolutely! There is nothing wrong with rutabagas, but I think other vegetables are more picturesque. Rutabagas are ambiguous veggies!
Jamal August 27, 2025 at 08:33 #1009877
Quoting Banno
Swedes are horrid. Just get some spuds


:angry:
unenlightened August 27, 2025 at 10:05 #1009881
Unless you are prone to kidney stones and the like, eat beetroot. Red, white. or yellow they are very sweet with an earthy flavour and they are terribly good for you and athletes especially, for a reason I forget. And you can eat the leaves as well as the roots.
Banno August 27, 2025 at 11:15 #1009886
frank August 27, 2025 at 14:00 #1009904
I wonder if dogs think humans are like gods who magically pull food out of bags and then tackle them and try to take their toys away in a tug of war.
Hanover August 27, 2025 at 15:19 #1009916
Quoting unenlightened
Unless you are prone to kidney stones and the like, eat beetroot. Red, white. or yellow they are very sweet with an earthy flavour and they are terribly good for you and athletes especially, for a reason I forget. And you can eat the leaves as well as the roots.


I do enjoy me some beets, but I found the canned sort are so much cheaper than the fresh that I find myself suffering the lesser beets. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty in my beet budget for fresh, but the cost difference is just too great to feel good about myself dining on the fresh.



Hanover August 27, 2025 at 15:42 #1009922
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
Might as well just do sweet potatoes?


I see exactly where this is going. We are engaging in a tuber naming contest where everyone chimes in with varying tubers that might suffice for my dinner.

With this, let the games begin. The one who names the most obscure tuber gets a free meal at chez Hanover. Second place gets two free meals. Last place has to eat with me daily.
Outlander August 27, 2025 at 15:51 #1009923
Quoting frank
and then tackle them


:yikes:

I don't think that part is supposed to happen.

Reply to Hanover

I fancy you as a yam man, quite frankly.
unenlightened August 27, 2025 at 19:47 #1009982
Quoting Hanover
the cost difference is just too great to feel good about myself dining on the fresh.


Buy a packet of seed or, several. and plant up the back lot.
Banno August 28, 2025 at 01:04 #1010062
Quoting Jamal
:angry:


I can only presume that those extolling the supposed virtues of the various turnips have not been sufficiently exposed to parsnips.

And we should also name the carrot, readily grown and always tasty.
javi2541997 August 28, 2025 at 04:25 #1010088
Quoting Banno
And we should also name the carrot, readily grown and always tasty.


Well... "tasty"... If you boil it, the taste disappears, and it feels like you are eating a sock.

I don't usually cook with carrots. It is true that it goes well with meat, but I think there are better vegetables. Furthermore, carrots are ambiguous.

A solution for carrots could be mixing them with oranges and mandarins in a super juicy juice.
T Clark August 28, 2025 at 04:40 #1010089
Quoting javi2541997
A solution for carrots could be mixing them with oranges and mandarins in a super juicy juice.


My wife makes a dish that combines carrots and butternut squash. The carrots add sweetness to the squash and it’s really good and that’s from someone who doesn’t really like butternut squash.
Banno August 28, 2025 at 04:47 #1010092
Quoting javi2541997
If you boil it...


Yeah, there's the problem. You are doing them wrong.
javi2541997 August 28, 2025 at 04:55 #1010094
Reply to T Clark I don't really like butternut squashes either, but I would try the recipe of your wife. Fall is coming, and squashes will be there, waiting for us!

Reply to Banno Yes, that might be the problem.

Anyway, carrot cake is very tasty and nice. None of you – carrot lovers – mentioned it at least one time.
Banno August 28, 2025 at 04:59 #1010095
We eat a lot of butternut, but we call it a pumpkin. Soup or roasted, sometimes in a tart.

Carrot cake is ubiquitous, so I didn't think to mention it.

BC August 28, 2025 at 05:10 #1010099
Quoting javi2541997
carrots are ambiguous


Carrots are also enigmatic. They are very orange, though, and what's not to like about orange fruit and vegetables? Parsnips tend to be diffident. Corn tends to be serial. Rutabagas are binary -- they either are, or they are not--you never know ahead of time whether you will have one, or a zero.

The name "squash" comes from the Narragansett Native American word "askutasquash," which translates to "eaten raw or uncooked". AI didn't mention the other Narragansett word for squash -- "bettabakasquash". Anybody remember Narragansett beer?
javi2541997 August 28, 2025 at 05:41 #1010102
Reply to BC Beetroots are obnoxious, onions are chill, and garlics think they are only worthy to cook pasta. The orchard is a fantastic place where we can discover different things. I understand why it motivated many narrators to write children's literature.

I remember this was discussed in the shoutbox before. We only use one word for "squash" in Spanish and it is "calabaza."

We don't say winter squash or butternut squash but just calabaza.
Hanover August 28, 2025 at 10:08 #1010114
Roasted acorn squash cut in half with maple syrup and cinnamon. Sugar goes with everything. It's a southern thing.

Zucchini as a source of pasta violates the laws of nature. God made spaghetti squash for that purpose.

Carrots go with peas. Every child should be told to eat every carrot and pee on their plate.

Boiling vegetables of all sorts should not end until they are soft enough to eat without chewing, always with some sort of salty pig something thrown in. That too, a southern thing.

Did someone say pig?





javi2541997 August 28, 2025 at 12:18 #1010126
Quoting Hanover
Boiling vegetables of all sorts [...]


According to @Banno, carrots should not be boiled under any circumstances. :worry:
Hanover August 28, 2025 at 12:42 #1010132
Quoting javi2541997
According to Banno, carrots should not be boiled under any circumstances.


I can't fully agree with that because I do think they are an important addition to many stews. I will agree that baking them with chicken and pot roasts does bring out a different sense of the carrotness, protecting more of the carrot flavor. It also is more flavorful than just potatoes and it adds color, although I am huge fan of beige.

The carrot has a fascinating history, beginning as a small white or ivory fibrous root that lacked its current sweetness. https://web.archive.org/web/20220917180640/http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/history.html

If someone objects to genetic engineering in farming, bring up the carrot as the counter example. No one can object to a carrot. No one.
Moliere August 28, 2025 at 18:35 #1010202
Quoting javi2541997
Well... "tasty"... If you boil it, the taste disappears, and it feels like you are eating a sock.


For most vegetables I think that's the case -- especially the ones which are typically served whole rather than other prepared dishes (mashed potatoes would count as a prepared dish by my thinking here)

What I prefer is baked, grilled, or steamed. "Steamed" is the one that makes them soft without changing the flavor. Grilled changes the flavor by making them taste smokey. Baked results in whatever flavor you want by adding an oil/water mixture of whatever spices, salts, and so forth that you enjoy.

Deep fried is, of course, always good, but since we're talking vegetables I figured the healthy options were better to mention
unenlightened August 28, 2025 at 19:00 #1010203
Someone gave me a violin the other day - said I could do what I liked with it.

But he was dead wrong; I can't do anything I like at all with it. and I don't like anything I can do with it. Is this the difference between freedom and licence?
Outlander August 28, 2025 at 19:13 #1010210
Quoting unenlightened
I can't do anything I like at all with it


Well, what is it you like? Perhaps he or she expected you to have better, more universally-liked likes. So I'd wager it's possible the former owner remains just as disappointed.

Quoting unenlightened
Is this the difference between freedom and licence?


Unless you're wearing some sort of explosive or shock collar that will detonate or activate if you leave whatever territory mandates said license, you always have your freedom, my good sir.
Hanover August 28, 2025 at 19:14 #1010211
Quoting unenlightened
Is this the difference between freedom and licence?


I'm not sure. To be sure, you don't have the freedom to play it if you don't know how to play it. But I think if we look at it as license, surely no license is so broad as to allow you to do what you like with it. Such unfettered discretion to do as you will with an innocent violin would lead to such breach of peace as to collapse society.

I suspect he meant he was transferring to you all rights and privileges he had to said violin, retaining none for himself, offering it free and clear of any encumbrance. Unfortunately, his lack of precision left you wondering whether you could be a concert violinist or whether you were within your rights to violate the violin in every imaginable way.

I'm glad you reached out here first.

unenlightened August 28, 2025 at 19:22 #1010213
Quoting Outlander
Well, what is it you like?


I quite like The Lark Ascending.

unenlightened August 28, 2025 at 19:39 #1010216
Quoting Hanover
... you don't have the freedom to play it if you don't know how to play it.


You are so insightful! So it seems that freedom has to be learned, or possibly earned, at least some of the time. And in that case, and in this particular case:

Quoting Outlander
... you always have your freedom, my good sir.


... is not the case. Case closed.
Banno August 28, 2025 at 23:52 #1010273
Wayfarer August 28, 2025 at 23:55 #1010275
Metaphysician Undercover August 29, 2025 at 00:30 #1010281
Quoting unenlightened
But he was dead wrong; I can't do anything I like at all with it. and I don't like anything I can do with it.


Electrify it, I think you'll like that. Make beautiful sound without knowing how to play.
Hanover August 29, 2025 at 01:00 #1010283
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Electrify it, I think you'll like that. Make beautiful sound without knowing how to play.


No, it's all in the dance.

Banno August 29, 2025 at 01:24 #1010290
Reply to unenlightened From the videos, it seems that Real Men don't play violin.
Banno August 29, 2025 at 01:25 #1010291
Quoting javi2541997
We only use one word for "squash" in Spanish and it is "calabaza."


Seems eminently sensible.
Metaphysician Undercover August 29, 2025 at 02:07 #1010297
There's a very big difference between winter squash and summer squash. One grows in the heat of the summer, and the other grows under the snow in the cold dark winter. Down Under, the squash doesn't even know which way is up or down
Banno August 29, 2025 at 03:11 #1010303
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Not much of a gardener, are you. They both grow in summer. Squash are eaten young and green, pumpkins left for the frost, so that the skin hardens and they store well.
BC August 29, 2025 at 04:13 #1010308
Reply to Banno I've always found "winter wheat" confusing.
javi2541997 August 29, 2025 at 04:33 #1010312
Quoting Moliere
Baked results in whatever flavor you want by adding an oil/water mixture of whatever spices, salts, and so forth that you enjoy.


That's how I usually eat vegetables, and I believe this is how they become more tasty. I use olive oil, salt and spices. The result is delicious, and it helps to eat some green boys which are less likeable than others; such as broccoli, cauliflower or carrots.
Hanover August 29, 2025 at 10:09 #1010347
Quoting BC
I've always found "winter wheat" confusing.


I looked that one up. Winter wheat is planted before winter and then goes dormant in winter and can survive winter and then can be harvested after winter.

Spring wheat cannot survive cold, so it's not planted to grow through winter.

Winter wheat has higher yields than spring.

Howfuckingever, winter wheat is resilient only in mild winters (Kansas), but would die of cold in harsh winters (North Dakota).

I've never grown wheat. Georgia isn't a wheat state. We've got peanuts, peaches, corn and such, and of course it's the land of cotton, look away, look away.
Metaphysician Undercover August 29, 2025 at 11:12 #1010351
Quoting Banno
Not much of a garden, are you.


Actually I have a degree in ag. But, since I would have preferred to be a brain surgeon, and didn't make it, I've found that messing with the words is the best legal way to fuck with your brain. Aren't you glad I didn't make it?

Hanover August 29, 2025 at 12:49 #1010362
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Actually I have a degree in ag


Did you ever work in agriculture?
unenlightened August 29, 2025 at 14:12 #1010368
Quoting Banno
From the videos, it seems that Real Men don't play violin.


Don't confuse reality with video. It's a rookie error. Video Men don't play violin: Real Men can't play violin.
Banno August 29, 2025 at 14:13 #1010369
Reply to unenlightened ah. My mistake. Thanks.
frank August 29, 2025 at 14:35 #1010373
AI's read mammograms more accurately than humans.
Jamal August 29, 2025 at 15:03 #1010377
The Shoutbox hosts a squash discussion approximately every two years, with little progress. I'd like to see more effort in future please.
T Clark August 29, 2025 at 15:32 #1010383
Quoting Jamal
The Shoutbox hosts a squash discussion approximately every two years, with little progress. I'd like to see more effort in future please.


I played squash a few times when I was in school. I actually owned a racket for a while. I went to a hoity toity New England school. There was actually a squash court in my dormitory. Needless to say, I was not very good at it.
javi2541997 August 29, 2025 at 16:31 #1010390
Reply to Jamal Reply to T Clark

After the squash game, pumpkin pie for everybody!
Hanover August 29, 2025 at 16:38 #1010391
Quoting T Clark
I played squash a few times when I was in school. I actually owned a racket for a while. I went to a hoity toity New England school. There was actually a squash court in my dormitory. Needless to say, I was not very good at it.


All we had was our fallen out teeth, so we'd see who could pitch theirs closest to the rock. The winner got to kiss their sister.

That was hoity toity where I went. The poor kids didn't have teeth, so they pitched their pustules.

javi2541997 August 29, 2025 at 16:47 #1010394
Coronation Street. August 29th 2025.

Baden: Who ate the butternut squash that I cooked this morning?

Wolfgang: No way!

Banno: Not much of a gardener, are you. It is impossible that you cooked butternut squash becuase they grow in summer. We have to wait to get squahes in our pantry.

Baden: What do you mean? Is it metaphysically impossible to cook butternut squashes in August?

Banno: Basically.

Hanover and T Clark: I can't fully agree with that because I do think they are an important addition to many stews. You can cook squashes whether you are in summer or winter, mate.

Javi: I promise I didn't eat your calabaza, Baden.

Wolfgang: I thought that the green boy in my spaghetti dish was called "Zucchini". I haven't heard anything about calabazas and squashes.

Jamal: Our living room hosts a squash discussion approximately every two years, with little progress. I'd like to see more effort in future please.

Everyone except Banno agrees with Jamal and proceeds to help Baden to cook a new butternut squash pie. Javi brings pints of Mahou.

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Hanover August 29, 2025 at 17:12 #1010397
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unenlightened August 29, 2025 at 17:32 #1010402
Quoting frank
AI's read mammograms more accurately than humans.


They never taught it my school, we had to make do with books. I put that down to prudishness, along with the fact that mammograms hadn't been invented back then. We'd all have been sniggering about 'secondary sexual body-parts'. But we did have free milk for school kids instead of AI. That's socialism! I bet I could drink a bottle of milk better than an AI.

frank August 29, 2025 at 18:18 #1010408
AI's for socialism!

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Hanover August 29, 2025 at 18:38 #1010417
My son is working on his Ph.D. related to AI and MRIs, particularly prostate cancer identification. They're also trying to use AI to enhance lower resolution MRI machines to perfom like much higher resolution ones.

I don't care if you read anything above that interested you. I was just bragging about my son.
Moliere August 29, 2025 at 19:46 #1010430
Reply to unenlightened I might prefer the AI to drink a bottle of milk, however.
praxis August 29, 2025 at 20:56 #1010447
Reply to frank

[i]"The mediator between the head and the hands must be the [s]heart[/s] reevaluation of values."[/I]

Banno August 29, 2025 at 23:16 #1010470
Reply to javi2541997 I still dibs some pie.
Metaphysician Undercover August 29, 2025 at 23:50 #1010481
Quoting Hanover
Did you ever work in agriculture?


Trying to blow my cover? As anyone who dabbles knows, anything to do with agriculture is work, and I've done enough of it.
frank August 30, 2025 at 00:04 #1010485
Reply to praxis
had to google that
javi2541997 August 30, 2025 at 08:16 #1010584
Eat one grapefruit a day! It is very healthy, full of vitamins, tasty, delicious, and it helps to keep the doctor away.

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Hanover August 30, 2025 at 10:39 #1010597
Reply to javi2541997 I'm glad you brought this up for discussion. It's not our imagination. Grapefruits actually have changed. They're now redder, smaller, and sweeter than the bitter yellow grapefruits of yore.

They bred out the bitter. https://askthefoodgeek.com/grapefruit/#:~:text=Red%20grapefruit,labeled%20as%2C%20Rio%20Star).

My life changed dramatically when I learned this. I now even own a special grapefruit eating spoon.

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javi2541997 August 30, 2025 at 11:12 #1010601
Quoting Hanover
I'm glad you brought this up for discussion.


You know I am always concerned about your health. :cool:

Quoting Hanover
My life changed dramatically when I learned this. I now even own a special grapefruit eating spoon.


But that's a beautiful and cool spoon, isn't it? Can you fold it using just your mind as Houdini did?
Hanover August 30, 2025 at 11:21 #1010602
Quoting javi2541997
But that's a beautiful and cool spoon, isn't it? Can you fold it using just your mind as Houdini did?


Yes, but I used pliers.
Hanover August 30, 2025 at 12:14 #1010609
Gotta love the 80s. Watch through to the man dancing.
frank August 30, 2025 at 13:50 #1010617
I always dance like that.

Scottish people do this:

wonderer1 August 30, 2025 at 13:59 #1010618
Quoting javi2541997
Eat one grapefruit a day! It is very healthy, full of vitamins, tasty, delicious, and it helps to keep the doctor away.


Grapefruit also inhibits the enzyme in your body which breaks down Viagra, so when your really need an erection lasting more than four hours...
javi2541997 August 30, 2025 at 14:13 #1010622
Quoting wonderer1
Grapefruit also inhibits the enzyme in your body which breaks down Viagra, so when your really need an erection lasting more than four hours...


Interesting. I didn't know that. Grapefruits are becoming a very likeable fruit in my Javi's top 10 fruits. The other day, I read that oranges are also an important fruit, because this orange boy holds a lot of vitamin C, which helps us to have a better life in different senses.
jorndoe August 30, 2025 at 14:33 #1010626
Promising :up:

A new cancer vaccine just wiped out tumors in mice
[sup]— University of Florida · Aug 19, 2025[/sup]

wonderer1 August 30, 2025 at 14:38 #1010630
Reply to jorndoe

Time for RFK Jr. to cancel that research.
Hanover August 30, 2025 at 14:52 #1010632
I caught the scurvy, I was in a bad way. Doc said eat an old style bitter grapefruit. I was like hell to the no, let the good Lord carry me away. I put a parrot on my shoulder and decided to let the days pass me by.

@javi2541997 shows up. Gives me the new fangled grapefruit. It cures me up in a jiff and I'm back to modding no delay.

Deep gratitudes is all I can say.
javi2541997 August 30, 2025 at 15:24 #1010639
Quoting Hanover
javi2541997 shows up. Gives me the new fangled grapefruit. It cures me up in a jiff and I'm back to modding no delay.


What good are friends if they can't help? :cool:
praxis August 30, 2025 at 15:41 #1010643
Reply to javi2541997

They’re also high in lycopene, a powerful antioxidant and good for prostate health.
Hanover August 30, 2025 at 16:39 #1010660
Reply to jorndoe The mice families have got to feel such relief.
javi2541997 August 30, 2025 at 17:16 #1010668
Reply to praxis

It helps prostate health and stimulates erections. Grapefruits are clearly good friends of men. :up:
DifferentiatingEgg August 30, 2025 at 19:56 #1010684
Reply to Hanover ....the bitterness was always minimized by ripping open the bitter skin sheeth and seeking only the fruit. Most people are too lazy to do this but its really easy. Remove the peel, break in half the open each section like you're opening an envelope, toss out the bitter white skin and eat the fleshy fruit. The fruit literally almost falls out of the sheeth once opened, you can just pluck out the whole segment.
unenlightened August 30, 2025 at 19:58 #1010685
Reply to frank Quoting frank
Scottish people do this:

https://youtube.com/shorts/MA5t6xPscjg?si=IgCAMIFGehuqbDKR


Proud to be the first person to dislike this video. My uncle was a troll who lived under the Forth Rail Bridge, so I know whereof I dislike. I have furthermore participated in proper Scottish dancing that is much more animated and lewd, and sometimes involves crossed swords that one delicately but rhythmically and with alacrity steps around whilst consuming a few wee drams and ignoring the bleeding feet. Och aye!
Banno August 30, 2025 at 22:29 #1010702
Quoting unenlightened
Scottish people do this:


Stand back to back in hivis while ignoring a blood "scoots bend" a few feet away?

She's my kinda girl.
BC August 30, 2025 at 22:58 #1010710

Quoting javi2541997
It helps prostate health and stimulates erections. Grapefruits are clearly good friends of men.


Some of us don't need grapefruit to get a hard on. Whatever turns you on.

Quoting unenlightened
Proud to be the first person to dislike this video


I didn't like it either, which surprised me a little bit. It was just too militantly ethnic, or something. It reeked of empire. A bunch of disciplined celts marching around to the beat of big drums is a bad sign for somebody. A pack dressed up like that could scare natives into submission.

It's a mercy that the bagpipe is hard to master.
Hanover August 31, 2025 at 00:17 #1010727
Quoting BC
Some of us don't need grapefruit to get a hard on. Whatever turns you on.


I prefer melons.
Banno August 31, 2025 at 00:27 #1010730
Reply to Hanover I'm given to understand BC prefers nuts.
Outlander August 31, 2025 at 00:31 #1010734
Quoting Banno
I'm given to understand


Is that proper English? At least, is it commonly used?

"I'm allowed to understand" something. Is there some force or entity that prowls about the known universe disallowing people to understand things that granted you such permission in this case?
Hanover August 31, 2025 at 00:38 #1010735
Quoting Outlander
Is that proper English? At least, is it commonly used?


Perchance it be.
Banno August 31, 2025 at 00:38 #1010736
Quoting Outlander
Is that proper English?


Yep.

Is it common? I hope not.
Hanover August 31, 2025 at 00:44 #1010741
My retort the more canny though.
T Clark August 31, 2025 at 00:49 #1010744
Quoting Hanover
I caught the scurvy, I was in a bad way. Doc said eat an old style bitter grapefruit. I was like hell to the no,


I think that’s why the British Navy used to give its sailors, rum with lime. You know, limeys.
T Clark August 31, 2025 at 00:58 #1010748
Quoting Hanover
I now even own a special grapefruit eating spoon.


My mother, who came from a more lofty social strata than I have attained, got silverware for her wedding that includes grapefruit spoons. Not silverplate - we are talking class.They are pointed like the one you’ve shown but do not have the serrations. I also have a grapefruit knife that can cut the sections before you eat it. I suppose the servants would use that before the grapefruit was served. Alas, I do not have servants, although I would guess you do.

More recently, I have gotten a serrated spoon like the one you have and it works just fine. No servants needed.
Hanover August 31, 2025 at 01:35 #1010751
Reply to T Clark I awake to a prepared grapefruit. I assume some being does the preparation, but whomever is purposefully kept from sight so as to not ruin my day with lowly interaction. I have it so my tending to feels like magic. Should I need something, or to fire someone, I call out "Hey Servant!" as others might call out for Siri and somehow I am heard.

T Clark August 31, 2025 at 01:48 #1010754
Quoting Hanover
Should I need something, or to fire someone, I call out "Hey Servant!" as others might call out for Siri and somehow I am heard.


Is that what they mean by “paralegals?”
Hanover August 31, 2025 at 01:54 #1010757
Quoting T Clark
Is that what they mean by “paralegals?”


Yes, you've described the respect I command at my office.
T Clark August 31, 2025 at 01:59 #1010760
Quoting Hanover
Yes, you've described the respect I command at my office.


It sounds like you’re paralegals fill a roll very similar to one my wife fills. The difference is probably that when I command her to do something, she tells me to go fuck myself.
L'éléphant August 31, 2025 at 02:59 #1010769
Quoting javi2541997
In fact, I read ingredients all the time and see the percentages they are used in foods.
(for health reasons). — L'éléphant


I do the same. Furthermore, I also check the "traffic light" of each product. If it is a green-coloured A everything is OK, and I will probably buy it; but if it is a red-coloured E, it makes me doubt the quality of the product.

I believe it is called "nutri-score."

Nice scoring! I would totally use something like that. Our bowel takes a beating all the time from all kinds of crap we ingest. FD&C Yellow No. 5, for example, the synthetic petroleum based food coloring. Now in the US of A, the snack manufacturers have changed the way they color their snacks from the synthetic to the natural coloring found in plants.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
"The charm of knowledge would be slight were there not so much embarrassment to overcome on the route to knowledge." Take the embarrassment and roll with it as if it were them doing you a favor. After all, the other party took time out of their life and gifted it to you.

Totally!


Quoting Hanover
I was just being my endearing playful self, but perhaps I was misunderstood. Me apologies.

No worries. I getcha!

Quoting frank
What does it do with them? Sell them on ebay?

Given that you can sell almost anything, including your spirit, on Ebay, yeah. Why not?

Quoting Hanover
I've been furiously boiling these rutabegas in chicken broth for quite some time, and they're finally softening. I read they are a healthier alternative to potatoes, but they start out hard as a rock.

I haven't tried rutabagas yet. That vegetable always intimidates me. I've only seen them in pictures.

frank August 31, 2025 at 16:37 #1010829
Quoting BC
It reeked of empire.


:chin:
javi2541997 September 01, 2025 at 09:21 #1010944
I am not sure whether I am correct or if it is just my perception, but don't you feel that coffee is more expensive than ever? :chin:
Hanover September 01, 2025 at 12:57 #1010952
Reply to javi2541997 My research reveals that it was the Black Frost in Brazil in 1977 that resulted in the largest spike in coffee prices that the world has ever seen.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/01/16/archives/theres-worse-to-come-in-coffee.html

https://www.covoyacoffee.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-the-price-of-coffee.html

A cup of coffee in today's dollars using 1977 prices puts us at $19 (16.3 €) a cup. My research shows you can find a cup of coffee in Spain for 1.5 to 2 €.

Consider yourself lucky.
javi2541997 September 01, 2025 at 13:07 #1010955
Quoting Hanover
A cup of coffee in today's dollars using 1977 prices puts us at $19 (16.3 €) a cup. My research shows you can find a cup of coffee in Spain for 1.5 to 2 €.

Consider yourself lucky.


I agree. Good research.

Although it is true that I can find a cup of coffee for just €1.5 or €2, I was referring to the cold bottles of macchiato or cappuccino that you can find in Starbucks or your local supermarket. I am starting to think that they have always been expensive, but I am now realising it.
Hanover September 01, 2025 at 15:10 #1010970
Quoting javi2541997
I was referring to the cold bottles of macchiato or cappuccino that you can find in Starbucks or your local supermarket. I am starting to think that they have always been expensive, but I am now realising it.


But this is the bigger problem. We've grown addicted to having others bottle our water and brew our coffee. If we did it ourselves most of the time, demand would drop for the service and so would price.

I worked at a place that brought in Starbucks to the lobby, and as part of their agreement for this wonderful perk, all coffee makers were removed from the break rooms. They couldn't compete against free.


javi2541997 September 02, 2025 at 13:46 #1011092
A friendly reminder:

Cereals go well with fresh cheese.

It is a weird manner for eating breakfast because you would probably miss the liquid taste of milk. But you can do it anyway, and it is actually good.

Pour 100 g of your cereals and then put a block of fresh cheese in your favourite bowl. You will not regret it!
Nils Loc September 02, 2025 at 18:40 #1011122
Quoting javi2541997
Pour 100 g of your cereals and then put a block of fresh cheese in your favourite bowl. You will not regret it!


I can see someone now putting a block of Velvetta in a bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and regretting it.
praxis September 02, 2025 at 19:07 #1011127
Reply to javi2541997

If you’re talking about corn flakes that’s basically what we call breakfast nachos.
javi2541997 September 02, 2025 at 19:23 #1011129
Quoting Nils Loc
I can see someone now putting a block of Velvetta in a bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and regretting it.


No! Why would he regret it? I think that's a perfect combo, actually.

Quoting praxis
If you’re talking about corn flakes that’s basically what we call nachos.


It might be. But I believe cereal with fresh cheese is healthier than cornflakes with nachos. I can see the resemblance. Yet it is important to notice that my combo is only allowed at breakfast.
unenlightened September 02, 2025 at 19:26 #1011130
Food forethought. (Is this too British for you?)



Alimentary dear Watson

Outlander September 02, 2025 at 20:50 #1011141
For the past roughly two years or so I have solely been using "mobile hotspot tethering" to access the Internet when on a computer.

For those unaware or unfamiliar, that means using a feature of a mobile phone to "broadcast" a Wi-Fi hotspot that one can connect to in order to browse the Web. Effectively, it's the same thing as any other hotspot anywhere. Except. Oh, except. For one aggravating stipulation. Data speed can be throttled.

I am currently limited to browsing the internet at 128Kb. For reference, the first dial-up modem in the 1990s is 56kB. It is beyond infuriating. This, and only 1990s style forums, are basically the only sites I can access on this PC. Thank you in advance for understanding.

Normally I take pride in only using the internet as a hobby, save for intellectual refinement, research, and other essential function. I don't like when unknown numbers call my phone. I am purposely not interesting in my daily affairs around the location I live. So when one perchance does, I log in to my paid premium account on a public records website to search it beforehand. Just to see if it's likely somebody I know. I am unable to do that. This must be what it's like to know nothing.

On the positive, however. I did disable images from my browser settings to allow some functionality. I can say I now have a unique and possibly beneficial forum experience here. Normally when I read threads, I am familiar with the person's avatar, and so I pay special attention to those who posts are from posters I admire. Now, you're all the same. There are no biases now. Just bolded username letters I ignore and read the posts as if they were from the same person. It's actually quite interesting. Perhaps this is the way the internet was meant to be browsed and experienced? Who could say.
L'éléphant September 03, 2025 at 01:11 #1011217
Quoting Outlander
For those unaware or unfamiliar, that means using a feature of a mobile phone to "broadcast" a Wi-Fi hotspot that one can connect to in order to browse the Web. Effectively, it's the same thing as any other hotspot anywhere. Except. Oh, except. For one aggravating stipulation. Data speed can be throttled.

I am currently limited to browsing the internet at 128Kb. For reference, the first dial-up modem in the 1990s is 56kB. It is beyond infuriating. This, and only 1990s style forums, are basically the only sites I can access on this PC. Thank you in advance for understanding.

The disillusionment syndrome is commonplace among users of technology. There is no middle efficiency. It's either no modern tech or mature tech to achieve happiness. Example is the washing machine -- it's been perfected. Apparently in the old days, women ( and I say women because they were the ones assigned this task 100%) actually found handwashing clothes with a group of other women an enjoyable activity.
Then the washing machine came and users are also happy. They cannot think of going back to the old days when women washed their clothes at a lake.
BC September 03, 2025 at 03:38 #1011236
Reply to Banno Well, more like bananas.
Banno September 03, 2025 at 03:47 #1011238
Reply to BC Same same. They tend to be found together.


Quoting Hanover
My retort the more canny though.

"Perchance it be" means "if it is", or at best "perhaps it is"; not "yes".

Quoting Outlander
I'm allowed to understand

"I'm given to understand" is more akin to "I have been led to believe" or "I have been informed" or "it has been brought to my attention that..."





AmadeusD September 03, 2025 at 04:52 #1011239
I apologise to everyone to whom I owe responses - most, quite robust ones.

I am going through a rather acute mental health crisis and wont be able to respond. It is hard to say whether this crisis will be ameliorated. I had to have a friend dictate this post, for instance. Sorry to all.
Tobias September 03, 2025 at 05:37 #1011241
Ahhh sorry to hear it Amadeus, wishing you good luck and lots of strength!
BC September 03, 2025 at 05:44 #1011242
Reply to AmadeusD I wish you well - and good, too.
BC September 03, 2025 at 05:45 #1011243
Quoting Banno
They tend to be found together.


If not, great misfortune.
javi2541997 September 03, 2025 at 08:06 #1011253
Some irrelevant but outstanding information: I just changed the picture of my profile into the goose from the Game of the Goose.

Now, this means that I joined the club whose members have a bird in their profile picture, like @T Clark, @Jamal, @hypericin, @Wheatley, @schopenhauer1, @praxis, etc.

:grin:
Jamal September 03, 2025 at 08:14 #1011257
Hanover September 03, 2025 at 09:33 #1011268
Quoting Banno
"Perchance it be" means "if it is", or at best "perhaps it is"; not "yes".


It means perchance it be.
Jamal September 03, 2025 at 10:29 #1011277
Reply to javi2541997

Talking of birds, I recently watched a very good documentary about extreme birdwatching:

javi2541997 September 03, 2025 at 10:45 #1011283
Reply to Jamal

Nice!

Have you always been interested in ornithology?
Jamal September 03, 2025 at 11:10 #1011284
Reply to javi2541997

Yes indeed. My father passed his interest in birds down to his sons.

Apparently my very first words were "great spotted woodpecker".
javi2541997 September 03, 2025 at 11:24 #1011287
Reply to Jamal :up: :smile:

Quoting Jamal
woodpecker


Pájaro carpintero. A great and beautiful bird, indeed.

User image
Hanover September 03, 2025 at 16:50 #1011324
My brother's wife's father would travel the world to watch birds, but actually to cheat on his wife.

Imagine how the birds felt to be someone else's excuse. It's one thing to tell your parents you're sleeping over at Roger's when you're doing something else even if Roger doesn't know because Roger would do the same to you, but to have no interest in this game and still be dragged in. Shameless.

Thoughts?
T Clark September 03, 2025 at 17:37 #1011333
A new term I just learned - nominative determinism. A couple of examples:

Robert Furlong was the Chairman of the Massachusetts State Racing Commission.

Hanover T. Badphilosopher is a well-known member of the forum.
jorndoe September 03, 2025 at 21:09 #1011357
Reply to AmadeusD, get well!
javi2541997 September 04, 2025 at 13:50 #1011413
I did a tier list of my favourite juices:

User image
praxis September 04, 2025 at 16:01 #1011427
Reply to javi2541997

Welcome to the flock.

I remember a new member saying the bird avatars felt cultish. I tried to argue that maybe cults weren’t so bad—just unfairly judged because of Jonestown and similar disasters. In hindsight, that probably seemed pretty cultish too.
javi2541997 September 04, 2025 at 16:47 #1011437
Reply to praxis

Hmm... "cultish"

Interesting adjective to define our love for bird avatars.

It is true that some birds (like geese) can be dangerous somehow, and I guess this is why that user felt threatened by many bird avatars.
frank September 04, 2025 at 20:51 #1011454
If you ever virtual sight-see on google earth, the backroads in Peru are pretty cool.
Metaphysician Undercover September 04, 2025 at 21:53 #1011462
Quoting javi2541997
It is true that some birds (like geese) can be dangerous somehow, and I guess this is why that user felt threatened by many bird avatars.


Geese, like other birds can carry diseases contagious to humans. And they shit everywhere.

T Clark September 04, 2025 at 22:04 #1011466
Quoting javi2541997
Interesting adjective to define our love for bird avatars.

It is true that some birds (like geese) can be dangerous somehow, and I guess this is why that user felt threatened by many bird avatars.


For me, it’s not about birds. It’s about crows. Crows are my totem animal. Smart, social, cranky, and loud.
praxis September 04, 2025 at 23:54 #1011474
Reply to javi2541997

I looked it up. When they asked about all the bird avatars I wrote:

Quoting praxis
Jamal, the owner of this website, is a famous birder. Rumor has it that he's rediscovered several species that were thought to be extinct and some of us have adopted bird avatars to honor that achievement, and perhaps garner his favor in a subtle unobtrusive way. I suggest you do the same.


It would be nice if that were true.
DifferentiatingEgg September 04, 2025 at 23:54 #1011475
When the mind collapses into contempt and emptiness, passions extinguished like ashes on the tongue, the body endures. Like a tree in winter, shedding its leaves to preserve its strength and to enrich its soil, the body gathers what remains, preserving the fragments most faithful to the instincts.
frank September 05, 2025 at 00:01 #1011476
Reply to javi2541997
Have you seen Best Wishes to All? Japanese horror.
Outlander September 05, 2025 at 00:05 #1011479
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg

[i]"Soul empty, joy gone;
I endure, I march forward:
For what else is life?"[/i]

That's my little attempt at a haiku-esque summary. Congratulations, you've now officially inspired someone in their writings. That makes you an literary "influencer." If this was not true before, of course.
T Clark September 05, 2025 at 00:08 #1011481
Quoting Outlander
That makes you an literary "influencer."


Or perhaps an older term - muse.
praxis September 05, 2025 at 00:57 #1011487
Nietzsche should only be discussed in aphorisms. I tried it today and it works pretty nicely.
Outlander September 05, 2025 at 02:20 #1011491
Quoting praxis
Nietzsche should only be discussed in aphorisms. I tried it today and it works pretty nicely.


May we get an example? Or is that just something you and you alone have the right to be privy too. :smile:
L'éléphant September 05, 2025 at 03:26 #1011493
Quoting AmadeusD
I apologise to everyone to whom I owe responses - most, quite robust ones.

I am going through a rather acute mental health crisis and wont be able to respond. It is hard to say whether this crisis will be ameliorated. I had to have a friend dictate this post, for instance. Sorry to all.

I wish you a speedy recovery from your crisis. Be well.
praxis September 05, 2025 at 03:44 #1011495
Reply to Outlander

Quoting praxis
Every morality is a shadow cast by power. What matters is not the shadow, but whether the light behind it warms life or withers it.


Quoting frank
How would you have heard of the ones that withered life? The morality that endures is life-giving. Lashing out is lashing in.


Quoting praxis
Reactive fury is a counterfeit of power: it shouts, it strikes, and all the while it gnaws its own heart.
javi2541997 September 05, 2025 at 04:12 #1011502
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
And they shit everywhere.


True! They shit everywhere. It is disgusting.

Quoting T Clark
For me, it’s not about birds. It’s about crows. Crows are my totem animal. Smart, social, cranky, and loud.


Nice! I don't know what could be my totem bird. I think fowls (like bataraz) have the best options to be my avatar: they like porridge (like me), are a bit cocky, and are unable to fly high due to natural circumstances.
javi2541997 September 05, 2025 at 04:14 #1011503
Reply to frank No, I don't watch Japanese horror films. They are disruptive, and it makes me uncomfortable when I try to sleep afterward.
DifferentiatingEgg September 05, 2025 at 04:20 #1011507
Reply to Outlander Nice little Haiku. Cheers.

Reply to praxis Hehe that would only end up pissing a lot of people off like wtf you're just as confusing as Nietzsche! But I think it's a great practice for writing in general. Go through his worls and reword groups of aphorisms that play into each other into different aphorisms. Ill give it a go while writing in my notebook.
DifferentiatingEgg September 05, 2025 at 04:40 #1011510
Reply to AmadeusD Sometimes we need to just take a break from all the BS and just like be in nature, or do something else that revitalizes us. This mental dungeon will still be around after you revitalize yourself, and you don't ever owe others the obligation of a response. And know that there is no wrong way of overcoming your current predicament so affirm the demands of your life.

(PS: if those demands are destructive, frind a way to sublate them in a less destructive manner? For the sake of your health.)
frank September 05, 2025 at 07:23 #1011523
Quoting javi2541997
No, I don't watch Japanese horror films. They are disruptive, and it makes me uncomfortable when I try to sleep afterward.


Japan's horror is iconic, though.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 10:36 #1011529
Quoting T Clark
For me, it’s not about birds. It’s about crows. Crows are my totem animal. Smart, social, cranky, and loud.


I'd have pegged you for the do do.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 10:37 #1011530
Quoting frank
Japan's horror is iconic, though.


Does this include Godzilla?
frank September 05, 2025 at 10:43 #1011531
Reply to Hanover
I was thinking more of the Grudge, but I guess Godzilla is horror. Godzilla Minus One left a mark on me because it never occurred to me that Godzilla was the USA.
DifferentiatingEgg September 05, 2025 at 12:24 #1011541
Nietzsche is the first psychologist of the eternally feminine because it draws him aloft. Consequently not a misogynist.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 13:02 #1011543
Quoting frank
was thinking more of the Grudge, but I guess Godzilla is horror. Godzilla Minus One left a mark on me because it never occurred to me that Godzilla was the USA.


Coincidentally (if one believes in such things), an old Godzilla movie is on TV right now. The bulk of the movie is about tracking Godzilla'a emergence from the sea and warning the residents to secure themselves. Post nuclear war trauma.
frank September 05, 2025 at 13:16 #1011546
Reply to Hanover
Is it the one where Godzilla stomps all over NYC? I love that scene.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 13:33 #1011549
Reply to frank I'm watching the 1955 Godzilla Raids Again. I happen to be watching it on NYC in my hotel. Quite a coincidence, if you believe in such things.
User image
User image
Central Park and Starry Night at MoMA.
frank September 05, 2025 at 14:30 #1011554
Reply to Hanover
Wow! I thought it was bigger than that.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 15:12 #1011557
Quoting frank
Wow! I thought it was bigger than that.


It varies in size, depending upon your video screen size.
frank September 05, 2025 at 15:26 #1011560
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 15:39 #1011561
T Clark September 05, 2025 at 15:57 #1011564
Quoting Hanover
I'd have pegged you for the do do.


Of all the people in the world I don’t want to be pegged by, you’re right at the top of the list.

[edit] I should delete that. It’s too creepy even if Hanover deserves it.
Hanover September 05, 2025 at 16:18 #1011569
Quoting T Clark
Of all the people in the world I don’t want to be pegged by, you’re right at the top of the list.


I doubt it.
praxis September 05, 2025 at 18:01 #1011583
The dodo did not fall to the hunter’s club but to its own peace: paradise made it tame, and tameness is the slowest form of suicide.
T Clark September 05, 2025 at 18:31 #1011586
Quoting Hanover
I doubt it.


You’re right. I was exaggerating, but you’re definitely on the list.
T Clark September 05, 2025 at 18:33 #1011587
Quoting Hanover
I doubt it.


For what it’s worth, John Paulson is ahead of you.
Hanover September 06, 2025 at 11:39 #1011671
Quoting T Clark
For what it’s worth, John Paulson is ahead of you.


Any guidance regarding how I might improve my standing would be appreciated. I aim to please.
frank September 06, 2025 at 12:38 #1011674
Reply to Hanover
Do you think the raid of the Hyundai plant was an attack on Georgia for it's refusal to subvert the 2020 election? Or probably not?
DifferentiatingEgg September 06, 2025 at 17:51 #1011697
Comedians are the true philosophers of the now and of the future. They smash idols and platonic representations with jokes. Wittgenstein and Nietzsche agree on this point though they don't outright say it. Wittgenstein says the a proper and good philosophy can consist entirely of jokes. While Nietzsche details this in various ways. For example:

Nietzsche, Gay Science, Book 1st §1:"The race is all, the individual is nothing,"—has incorporated itself in humanity, and when access stands open to every one at all times to this ultimate emancipation and irresponsibility.—Perhaps then laughter will have united with wisdom, perhaps then there will be only "joyful wisdom." Meanwhile, however, it is quite otherwise, meanwhile the comedy of existence has not yet "become conscious" of itself, meanwhile it is still the period of tragedy, the period of morals and religions.


The fools fortune of the ontological idiotes lay within the treasure trove of jokes.

Yes yes, I'm duly aware of another joke stemming from this as a self roast "I'm such a great philosophers precisely because I am a Joke!" Muahaha, I was considering jokes while folding my laundry that are offensive to generic platonic representations of categories of thought.
Moliere September 06, 2025 at 22:43 #1011720
Reply to Hanover Reply to frank

I was surprised at how small Starry Night is when I saw it.

Various printings of it are huge in comparison.

But seeing the real deal was very cool because it had all the texture that the reprints don't.

Reply to DifferentiatingEgg I agree. Jokes are a way to handle the world as it is now, a way to deal with tragedy that isn't moribund. Many philosophers have not treated humor with due diligence: seeking a gravitas deeper than laughter, when laughter and fun (with others) are the meanings of life.
Hanover September 07, 2025 at 00:26 #1011728
Movie stars are also smaller in person when you see them. But once I got really good seats at a Braves' game and the players were monster size from up close.

In my car mirror objects are closer than they appear.
Hanover September 07, 2025 at 00:38 #1011730
Speaking of which, in the old Godzilla movies, the actors dressed up in rubber suits and wrestled around on miniature models of the city. To the buildings, the monsters looked large.

They found that less time consuming and idiotic than making super large model cities and even larger sized monsters, although that would have worked as well.
frank September 07, 2025 at 00:56 #1011733
Nobody is answering my question.
Hanover September 07, 2025 at 01:39 #1011737
Quoting frank
Nobody is answering my question.


The answer was shouted by the silence of my one hand clapping,

Wait, that seems evasive. A better answer would be that it looks like Trump is sending the message to the world about his immigration policy and his allowance of others to do business with the US. I don't think it was aimed at Georgia.
BC September 07, 2025 at 03:39 #1011743
Reply to frank Per Hanover, It was probably not aimed at Georgia. But who knows what evil lurks in the heart of MAGA?

Immigration raids have occurred at a wide variety of locations in numerous states.
javi2541997 September 07, 2025 at 04:16 #1011747
I don't know if you are an active contributor on Google Maps, but the app decided to remove the "followers" and "following" lists. The effects will occur this month. I am a contributor on Google Maps, but I have never followed other contributors. I don't understand what the impact of this decision would be.

By the way, Kalamata olives are delicious with fresh cheese.
frank September 07, 2025 at 06:42 #1011749
Quoting Hanover
Wait, that seems evasive. A better answer would be that it looks like Trump is sending the message to the world about his immigration policy and his allowance of others to do business with the US. I don't think it was aimed at Georgia.


ok

Quoting BC
Immigration raids have occurred at a wide variety of locations in numerous states


I know, it's just that this was the biggest one yet and most of the detainees were Koreans. Considering the value of Hyundai's plant to Georgia, I think the old way of doing things would have maybe involved a warning to Hyundai rather than creating a hostile environment for foreign investment.
unenlightened September 07, 2025 at 15:03 #1011774
Quoting frank
Nobody is answering my question.


Really? So what was the answer? Was it satisfying? You are very fortunate, you know; mostly, this being a philosophy forum, nobody just dissolves questions in some kind of acid wit*, or tells you that Google is your friend, which is an outright lie.

*wit: n. a strong and caustic acid capable of dissolving stubborn philosophical problems and questions, developed and named after Wittgenstein, the famous non-thing.
Hanover September 07, 2025 at 15:29 #1011778
Quoting frank
Considering the value of Hyundai's plant to Georgia, I think the old way of doing things would have maybe involved a warning to Hyundai rather than creating a hostile environment for foreign investment.


Yeah, but the loss to South Korea generally and Hyundai specifically would be far greater if they closed up shop and created a bigger trade war with the US. It's a flex, letting them know who controls negotiations.
frank September 07, 2025 at 17:10 #1011792
Reply to Hanover So Hyundai isn't in control. Hadn't thought of that. I'm used to communities bending over backwards to court employers.
Paine September 07, 2025 at 18:54 #1011801
Quoting Hanover
I don't think it was aimed at Georgia.


Georgia is an operating center for many Multinational Corporations. The tariff regime (or the attempt to form one) is a downer for the free trade fever down there.

But as you suggest, the move is a signature dickhead prologue to Potus visiting South Korea soon.
frank September 08, 2025 at 14:23 #1011911
Quoting unenlightened
Really? So what was the answer?


I can't finish fixing my ceiling because I pulled a muscle in my Popeye forearm. Thoughts?
unenlightened September 08, 2025 at 15:54 #1011917
Reply to frank Spinach.
frank September 08, 2025 at 18:31 #1011936
Reply to unenlightened
Will clovers work?
DifferentiatingEgg September 08, 2025 at 18:39 #1011938
Reply to Outlander

Wrote a little poem last night for those thoughts too, before passing out, so right back at you:

Deep Down Trauma Hounds:

Deep down in these feelings I drown,
Ceilings trapping dealings crowned,
Trauma hounds, round and round,
Yet still I rise, with solid ground,

Through and through, this guise you knew,
Comprise with lies, something true,
I turn the night into dawn,
The weight is lifted, I move on.

Hanover September 09, 2025 at 03:18 #1012006
I was reminded of an old girlfriend today. so I wrote this poem about stuckedness.

I planned my getaway just past noon, but somehow ended up in your living room.
Arguing about the same old thing, the rent, the shoes, the diamond ring.

My crawl, my dance, my stall, my wait, my clear intent to hesitate.
The door so close, my car awaits, yet you carry on, you make me late.

This talk ended many months months ago, and still you act like you don't know.
I wish today I never came so I could start to forget your name.
L'éléphant September 09, 2025 at 03:51 #1012009
Quoting javi2541997
Kalamata olives are delicious with fresh cheese.

Weird. Two days ago I bought a jar of kalamata olives with the intention of eating them with cheese.
Outlander September 09, 2025 at 04:05 #1012010
Quoting L'éléphant
Weird. Two days ago I bought a jar of kalamata olives with the intention of eating them with cheese.


Not even close, friend. I'll show you bizarre. Just the other day I bought a bag of chips. And something fiendish struck me. The craving for dip. And lo and behold, get this, not just the man behind me, but the woman in front of me as well, also bought dip. It's like, the universe or whatever is calling to me to become King of France. Surely this is the most logical — nay, scratch that — the only possible explanation.

Or, maybe global markets share global trends and as a result sales or promotions based on supply and demand can be observed in both the microcosm and macrocosm as far as retail grocery purchasing and the like. But I like the King of France theory better.
Outlander September 09, 2025 at 04:10 #1012011
Reply to Hanover

Obligatory late night haiku:

[i]"Sidetracked, we fight more;
Why do you do this often?
I do not miss you."[/i]
javi2541997 September 09, 2025 at 04:26 #1012012
Quoting L'éléphant
Weird. Two days ago I bought a jar of kalamata olives with the intention of eating them with cheese.


:cool:

Quoting Outlander
Obligatory late night haiku:


Sorry to be fussy. Question marks or interrogative sentences are not part of haiku structure. Your poem might be a senryu or zappai because it has a big portion of human casualty.

The point of haiku is painting nature using words instead of colours.
T Clark September 09, 2025 at 04:30 #1012014
Quoting Hanover
I was reminded of an old girlfriend today. so I wrote this poem about stuckedness.


You’ll be happy to know that poem moved you up on my list of people I wouldn’t want to be pegged by.
javi2541997 September 09, 2025 at 04:56 #1012018
Reply to T Clark

I wish I was pegged by @Hanover. Am I in trouble for thinking like this?
T Clark September 09, 2025 at 05:15 #1012019
Quoting javi2541997
Am I in trouble for thinking like this?


Javi, Javi, Javi…
Outlander September 09, 2025 at 05:33 #1012021
Quoting javi2541997
Question marks or interrogative sentences are not part of haiku structure.


Until now. Thank you very much. I also knew I was a trendsetter.

Quoting javi2541997
The point of haiku is painting nature using words instead of colours.


The point of human expression is what the human who expressed it desired it to be. Anything else is merely an added bonus.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 09:46 #1012036
Quoting Outlander
And lo and behold, get this, not just the man behind me, but the woman in front of me as well, also bought dip. It's like, the universe or whatever is calling to me to become King of France.


You were all baited like fish by the grocery store. They knew exactly how to bait the hook and position it in the store to reel in the most buyers.

Jamal September 09, 2025 at 10:33 #1012037
Quoting Hanover
like fish by the grocery store


Just hanging around outside?
Metaphysician Undercover September 09, 2025 at 11:42 #1012043
Quoting Hanover
You were all baited like fish by the grocery store.


I couldn't resist commenting, after reading the poem about stuckedness.

How did you somehow end up in her living room?

You might say I was baited.

So it goes.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 13:08 #1012051
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
How did you somehow end up in her living room?


Of course bait. It's all about learning which bait you actually like, then it's all good.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 13:18 #1012052
Quoting Jamal
Just hanging around outside?


Maybe I need to clarify my analogy. "You were all baited like fish by the grocery store" means you were all baited, like fish, yet you were baited (metaphorically) by the grocery store personnel and administration (these would be the grocers who wear ties and sit ahigh in the customer service assembly area).

The analogy, stated concisely: Bait is to fish in a lake as dip is to people in a grocery store.

This means the fishing (metaphorically) occurred within the store by having the dip (the bait) on the shelves when people (fish) would come by and mindlessly bite it (pick it up and put it in the cart).

So, to your question, the people (the fish) were not just hanging around outside because the venue of enticement (as I will refer to the lake or the grocery store in the abstract) was not outside, but inside.

As previously discussed in brief, the grocery store is where they store squashes of all sorts,

Did you know that in the South we call the shopping cart a buggy?
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 13:23 #1012053
Quoting T Clark
You’ll be happy to know that poem moved you up on my list of people I wouldn’t want to be pegged by.


Then please erase that poem from your memory. Anything I need to do to better prioritize myself consider done.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 14:30 #1012064
Quoting Hanover
Did you know that in the South we call the shopping cart a buggy?


Yes, it comes up in the Shoutbox every couple of years, usually just after squashes.

We call them trolleys. But an online shopping cart is a basket.
javi2541997 September 09, 2025 at 15:39 #1012072
Quoting Jamal
Yes, it comes up in the Shoutbox every couple of years, usually just after squashes.

We call them trolleys


We call them carritos.

I recall talking about squashes, but not about trolleys, so I thought it was time to do my bit. :smile:
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 15:45 #1012073
Reply to javi2541997

Much appreciated :up:
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 15:46 #1012074
Quoting Jamal
We call them trolleys


I know you call a purse that a man carries a manpurse, but what do you call the man that carries it?
Moliere September 09, 2025 at 15:50 #1012075
This is a manifesto from a band named Lego Indiana Jones and it's pretty good!

https://lij.ie/posts/desideratamusicae/
Nils Loc September 09, 2025 at 16:45 #1012078
Quoting Moliere
it's pretty good!


And what else is pretty good about them?

Hope All Is Well

T Clark September 09, 2025 at 17:29 #1012081
Quoting javi2541997
I recall talking about squashes, but not about trolleys, so I thought it was time to do my bit. :smile:


I try to avoid discussions of the trolley problem as much as I can.

javi2541997 September 09, 2025 at 18:07 #1012082
Quoting T Clark
I try to avoid discussions of the trolley problem as much as I can.


I try to avoid any discussion as much as I can.

User image
praxis September 09, 2025 at 18:36 #1012085
User image
javi2541997 September 09, 2025 at 19:34 #1012088
Reply to praxis

If Starbucks were a Judeo-Christian religion, Jesus would have had to share coffee instead of wine.

Think about it carefully... What an amazing discovery!
Moliere September 09, 2025 at 21:19 #1012100
Reply to Nils Loc This is good.

I love the jazz drums carried as a thematic background for the transitions. Even the flowing out of jazz to rock back to jazz -- great mix of rhythmic genres.

Or, as they say, The Pop :D.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:01 #1012108
Reply to Hanover

The thing that is carried by one who carries a manbag is a bag. The carrier of a manbag is a man. It's in the name.

However, I call my bag a handbag, to be provocative, although that is in fact what I wish to call it.

We don't call them purses. That's just an American thing, as you probably already know.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 22:10 #1012110
Quoting Jamal
The thing that is carried by one who carries a manbag is a bag. The carrier of a manbag is a man. It's in the name.


This makes sense. I feel not only informed, but chastised. I hope it matches your mandress.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:15 #1012113
Reply to Hanover

Here is a recent photo of me in my mandress, my handbag in view but not on my person.

User image

Critique is welcome.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 22:16 #1012114
Tuna packed in olive oil over water. A no brainer.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:17 #1012115
Reply to Hanover

I prefer brine.
Outlander September 09, 2025 at 22:20 #1012118
Reply to Jamal

Speaking of man bags and such, I am reminded of one of my favorite posts by @Hanover.

He speaks of an "embattled man bag" as if somehow an article of clothing has seen and survived war. Perhaps it has.

Weird call out, sure. Perhaps I'm a bit "neuro-divergent" (or whatever), but for whatever reason, whenever I read or hear a sentence I know for a fact no man has ever said before, I don't know, it kind of clicks and cements into my mind and psyche in some odd, likely non-beneficial way. I can instantly recall it and how long ago it was and what was happening at the time. Kind of an odd non-talent I suppose. No matter. Not much I can do about that.
Banno September 09, 2025 at 22:21 #1012119
Quoting Jamal
We don't call them purses


With good reason. A purse carries money, carrying money being a custom in times of yore, before the advent of the smartphone.

Brined tuna is better for cooking, oil for salad.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:22 #1012120
Reply to Outlander

Nothing to worry about. To be tickled by unique language is to be alive to the possibilities of human life.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:23 #1012121
Reply to Banno

I'm in agreeance on all fronts.
Banno September 09, 2025 at 22:25 #1012123
Quoting Jamal
my handbag in view but not on my person.


It may be best if you refrained from posting pictures of your manbag, and most unfortunate not to have it on your person. Keep it in your trousers.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:26 #1012124
Reply to Banno

Thank you.
T Clark September 09, 2025 at 22:31 #1012126
Quoting Jamal
Critique is welcome.


I like the jacket. Nice length.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 22:32 #1012127
Quoting Jamal
Critique is welcome.


A black collarless shirt, three button sports coat, oversized rims. This screams hip casual, I'm here to enjoy your finest food and drink, but I refuse stuffy sophistication.

The manbag holds an iPhone, not the newest, but it still does the trick. It also includes a mix of Euros and pounds, a ball point pen too thick to write much, a half tube of chapstick, a paperclip, and some sunscreen for your proud baldness. The contents speak to your hidden pragmatism all the while the pursebag itself speaks to your devil may care attitude of the opinions of women.

A Scottish original you are, in a colorfree 8x8 room.
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 22:36 #1012128
Quoting Banno
Keep it in your trousers


Sound advice.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:36 #1012129
Reply to Hanover

I'll take it.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:37 #1012130
Reply to T Clark

Thank you. It was my Dad's. Fits me better.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:38 #1012131
Reply to Hanover

Google Pixel by the way
Hanover September 09, 2025 at 22:46 #1012133
User image
Penny Ann back from the hunt.
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:48 #1012134
Reply to Hanover

Great shot
Jamal September 09, 2025 at 22:52 #1012136
User image

Jamal and niece-of-Jamal in the Scottish sunshine a couple of weeks ago.
L'éléphant September 10, 2025 at 01:11 #1012156
Quoting Outlander
Not even close, friend. I'll show you bizarre. Just the other day I bought a bag of chips. And something fiendish struck me. The craving for dip. And lo and behold, get this, not just the man behind me, but the woman in front of me as well, also bought dip. It's like, the universe or whatever is calling to me to become King of France. Surely this is the most logical — nay, scratch that — the only possible explanation.

Or, maybe global markets share global trends and as a result sales or promotions based on supply and demand can be observed in both the microcosm and macrocosm as far as retail grocery purchasing and the like. But I like the King of France theory better.

Haha! :grin: Bizzare indeed. You witnessed the power of shared craving.

Quoting Jamal
Jamal and niece-of-Jamal in the Scottish sunshine a couple of weeks ago.

:up:

Quoting Hanover
Penny Ann back from the hunt.


Supercute pic! Looks like it was a successful hunt.
Metaphysician Undercover September 10, 2025 at 02:05 #1012160
Quoting Jamal
Critique is welcome.


The man, handsome. The handbag, no comment.
javi2541997 September 10, 2025 at 05:17 #1012170
Quoting Jamal
Jamal and niece-of-Jamal in the Scottish sunshine a couple of weeks ago.


:up:

Handsome man. The niece-of-Jamal, really cute.
Jamal September 10, 2025 at 11:46 #1012186
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Reply to javi2541997

Now you're making it look like I was fishing for compliments. Thanks anyway.

Really I wanted to share a photo of myself bathed in Scottish sunshine, as a challenge to the naysayers; and to show off my new jacket or "sports coat".
T Clark September 10, 2025 at 17:33 #1012217
Quoting Jamal
Really I wanted to share a photo of myself bathed in Scottish sunshine, as a challenge to the naysayers; and to show off my new jacket or "sports coat".


You’ve got kind of a Stanley Tucci vibe going on there. That’s not a bad thing.
unenlightened September 10, 2025 at 18:32 #1012224
The nature of a
Question mark is an unknown
Sex marks the spot.
Hanover September 10, 2025 at 18:40 #1012225
Quoting Jamal
Really I wanted to share a photo of myself bathed in Scottish sunshine, as a challenge to the naysayers; and to show off my new jacket or "sports coat".


So this lets me know "sports coat" is an American term. It seems Brits say sports jacket. The three buttons strikes me as modern hip, kind of a throwback, but now in style and looking classic. The sort of thing you'd inherit from your father.
Jamal September 10, 2025 at 18:59 #1012226
Reply to Hanover

Indeed. But in fact I've liked sports jackets since my twenties, when people said I was ridiculous for wearing one.

Quoting T Clark
You’ve got kind of a Stanley Tucci vibe going on there. That’s not a bad thing.


I've been told that before. I share his baldness and love of pasta but I have a much rounder head.
DifferentiatingEgg September 10, 2025 at 20:43 #1012234
Reply to Jamal way to ruin the mystery... I was hoping you were more Artistic... but it's funny, you kinda resemble Adorno in a way.
javi2541997 September 11, 2025 at 04:54 #1012364
We are close to reaching 2,000 pages in The Shoutbox. My estimated calculations say that at least 15% of the messages are about squashes ([I]calabaza)[/i] debate, and another 15% are about trolleys and "buggies" in supermarkets. 20% is about breakfast, meals, dinner, and culinary stuff. Another 5% is Hanover's random photos of his shoes and dogs.

The other 45% is history.
javi2541997 September 11, 2025 at 04:57 #1012366
Addendum: Oh, bloody cow! My last post literally hit the 2,000th page of this thread. This made me feel weirdly happy.

:smile:
MoK September 11, 2025 at 18:00 #1012442
Reply to javi2541997
You lucky! :wink:
Metaphysician Undercover September 11, 2025 at 20:31 #1012459
Quoting javi2541997
My estimated calculations...


Let's work on bringing up the percentage of posts talking about @javi2541997 causing the Shoutbox to reach 2000 pages. Holy shit! That's a Herculean task if I've ever seen one
BC September 12, 2025 at 02:21 #1012504
Quoting javi2541997
weirdly happy


It's good to be a major contributor to vital statistics. One quibble:

It's "bloody hell" and "holy cow". I wonder if Hindus in India say "holy cow"? Do devils in hell say "bloody hell"?
javi2541997 September 12, 2025 at 04:34 #1012529
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Let's work on bringing up the percentage of posts talking about javi2541997 causing the Shoutbox to reach 2000 pages. Holy shit! That's a Herculean task if I've ever seen one


Wow, MU, I am flattered by your challenge. :smile:

Quoting BC
It's "bloody hell" and "holy cow".


I promise I heard "holy cow" a lot of times when I was in Scotland. I guess it might be Scottish slang, or I'm just confusing terms and my memories are betraying me. @Jamal, may you corroborate if I am right or wrong?
Jamal September 12, 2025 at 05:14 #1012533
Reply to javi2541997

"Holy cow" is common, but "bloody cow" is a Javi original :up:
javi2541997 September 12, 2025 at 05:29 #1012536
Quoting Jamal
"Holy cow" is common, but "bloody cow" is a Javi original


¡Genial! :up:
BC September 12, 2025 at 06:22 #1012537
Reply to javi2541997 Other invocations of hell and cow:

what in holy hell...
hell's bells!
what fresh hell is this!
Hell!
hell of a...
helavuh (hell of a...)
snowball's chance in hell (very unfavorable chance)
when hell freezes over (unlikely event)
if you're walking through hell, keep going
get the hell out...
like a bat out of hell
all hell breaks loose
give someone hell
hot as hell
what the hell?
hell on wheels
catch hell
give someone hell
go to hell

On the other hand,

How now brown cow (elecution exercise phrase)
I'm an old cow hand from the Rio Grande
have a cow (make a very big deal about something)
cow pie (fresh cow shit or dried out cow shit)
cow college (agricultural college in the Midwest)
take the bull by the horns OR
grab the bull by the tail and face the situation
till the cows come home (whenever that might be)
like a bull in a china shop
Bull's eye! (hit the center of the target)
bull shit (of course)
a bullshit artist
as strong as an ox OR
as dumb as an ox
a cash cow
javi2541997 September 12, 2025 at 06:43 #1012538
Quoting BC
what the hell?
and Quoting BC
go to hell


Are the first-ever "ugly words" or "swearing" that every English learner learns.

Quoting BC
I'm an old cow hand from the Rio Grande


Yee-haw! :cool:

Quoting BC
cow college (agricultural college in the Midwest)


LMAO. That's very funny. Calling cow a college. What are the students then? Cheese? Milkshakes? :rofl:

Quoting BC
like a bull in a china shop


We have a similar saying: cómo un elefante en una cacharrería. -- Like an elephant in a china shop/pottery shop.

Quoting BC
Bull's eye! (hit the center of the target)


I remember this one when I used to play Call of Duty a lot.



frank September 12, 2025 at 12:46 #1012566
Quoting BC
what fresh hell is this!


I like this one.
Hanover September 12, 2025 at 12:53 #1012569
You guys have been spared. ChatGPT told me "I can't create violent or gory images like a "bloody cow."
Baden September 12, 2025 at 14:09 #1012597
Quoting javi2541997
Addendum: Oh, bloody cow! My last post literally hit the 2,000th page of this thread. This made me feel weirdly happy.


Just dropped in to congratulate you, amigo. :cheer:

Reply to Hanover

Just dropped in to congratulate you, ChatGPT. :cheer:
javi2541997 September 12, 2025 at 14:15 #1012601
Quoting Baden
Just dropped in to congratulate you, amigo. :cheer:


¡Amigo! I missed seeing you around (in The Shoutbox).

How have you been?

Thanks for congratulate me. :cool: What could I do without The Shoutbox?
BC September 12, 2025 at 23:33 #1012708
Quoting javi2541997
What are the students then?


Farmers. That's the idea -- to make good farmers, something or other.
Sir2u September 12, 2025 at 23:54 #1012717
Quoting Hanover
You guys have been spared. ChatGPT told me "I can't create violent or gory images like a "bloody cow."


https://ideogram.ai/t/explore

search for:
a cow with big red stains on it

Not gory, but at least bloody looking.
Metaphysician Undercover September 13, 2025 at 00:40 #1012733
Quoting Hanover
ChatGPT told me "I can't create violent or gory images like a "bloody cow."


How about a drink? There must be a drink called a bloody cow. What good is that thing, if it can't it even mix a drink for you?
BC September 13, 2025 at 03:02 #1012762
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

The bloody cow cocktail

1. Barkeep: Call bouncer to remove any customer who orders a bloody cow cocktail
2. Bouncer: Throw the customer out on the sidewalk in such a way to maximize abrasions
3. Barkeep: Send out a vodka on ice to the bleeding drinker to salve his/her bloody wounds
4. Bouncer: Don't let them back in
5. Bouncer & Barkeep: Deny everything in court
Hanover September 13, 2025 at 11:11 #1012799
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
How about a drink? There must be a drink called a bloody cow. What good is that thing, if it can't it even mix a drink for you?

The Bloody Cow:

1 part cranberry juice
1 part cherry liqueur
1 part Fireball Whisky
1 part Merlot
4 parts heavy whipping cream

Using an electric handheld whisk (like used for cappuccinos), mix until you form a meringue with stiff peaks. Dust with a smoky paprika and top with a candy corn.

You won't be able to just drink one!
Hanover September 13, 2025 at 11:19 #1012800
Undeterred by ChatGPT censorship controls, I modified my request slightly to get a picture of a cow that generally met our requirements.

I asked it to draw a dancing paisley cow with a feather earring holding a manbag wearing a mini-kilt under a blood red sky.

User image

This i think of when I hear "bloody cow."
praxis September 14, 2025 at 04:04 #1012961
A brief life spent in fierce self-overcoming, though it perish, is worth more than the endless survival of the meek.
Outlander September 14, 2025 at 04:21 #1012963
Quoting praxis
A brief life spent in fierce self-overcoming, though it perish, is worth more than the endless survival of the meek.


The problem is people spend time "overcoming" things that nobody really else saw as a burden. But hey, if it keeps the non-adept from being anymore of a problem than their existence already creates.

By "meek" do you mean not being 6'4 and able to physically bench press another human being live on the street? Sure, it's nice to be born with things we never earned that we inhumanly incorporate as part of "ourselves", as if it was our identity or "essence" that somehow willed us these transient things, despite all physicality and worth in this world being mere chance outside of contemplation.

Where did this benighted quote of yours come from? I don't take you for the shallow/juvenile/"easily-illusioned-by-the-physical" type.
DifferentiatingEgg September 14, 2025 at 05:18 #1012970
Reply to Outlander He's making his own aphorisms based on small sections of Nietzsche's own thoughts. The meek are those willed by others rather than those who can will themselves. Among many other psychological traits that may play a roll in someone's lack of a strong will.
Outlander September 14, 2025 at 05:47 #1012973
Quoting DifferentiatingEgg
The meek are those willed by others rather than those who can will themselves.


Sounds like a hallmark of being young. Some people have tolerable lives, be it by wealth or good looks, size or power over others, just a natural wit or personality that people enjoy and thus ultimately remains willed by others all the same.

Sure, you can be broke, or average, nothing special, and generally ignored by society and if your will is strong enough, that's all one would need to live a life worth living. I suppose that's the kind of person he was hoping to influence?

Just in the modern age, my expectations for what people subscribe to are understandably low. And just because you can "will" yourself to something, doesn't mean it's going to lead to what you'd want or expect, let alone need. Sure, someone unable to will themselves that must be willed by others, that's surely a fatal flaw. But there's nothing wrong with being willed by others, in principle. Provided you know who to listen to and who to ignore. No man is an island. Only a fool thinks he knows all there is to know and that no man could ever utter a sentiment that might end up helping or teaching him something, perhaps even as far as saving his life. Wouldn't you say?
DifferentiatingEgg September 14, 2025 at 13:04 #1012993
Reply to Outlander Heh, grandstanding aside, sounds like you both need to put in more work to understand Nietzsche.

Who cares about your reaction towards Praxis' use of the word meek? Only you. Further, Nietzsche writes for a specific audience, specifically those who aren't willed but rather will. N doesn't care if the weak are weak. He states more than once that those who thrive under compulsions ought to remain willed by others. As its better for them than falling into nihilism.

Nietzsche subsumes the framework in which Christ acts into his framework for the noble typeology and Amor Fati. He doesn't agree with the Beatitudes of Christ, but he does agree with the psychology in which Christ operates.
Hanover September 14, 2025 at 13:25 #1012994
I read @praxis' quote just to mean a life spent growing yet dying young is better than one just spent surviving for a longer time.

Quality over quantity.
Nils Loc September 14, 2025 at 16:45 #1013022
Is Nietzsche peddling his terrible influence in the forums again... From beyond the grave, crossed-eyed syphilitic mummy with a bushy mustache, speaks.

Conceptual Mummies

[quote= Nietzsche ]Everything that philosophers have handled, for thousands of years now, has been conceptual mummies; nothing real escaped their hands alive. They kill and stuff whatever they worship, these gentlemen who idolize concepts—they endanger the life of whatever they worship. For them, death, change, and age, like reproduction and growth, are objections—refutations, even. Whatever is does not become; whatever becomes is not . . . [/quote]

Take that philosophers! Hurry up and overcome! Go to the dance party. Just do it!®



praxis September 14, 2025 at 17:36 #1013029
Nature counts bodies, but spirit weighs them: a thousand empty shells are as nothing beside one overflowing soul. Dance bitches!
DifferentiatingEgg September 14, 2025 at 19:47 #1013042
Reply to praxis when the masses find repose within a noble type's values, this creates the man who dissolves an era. They are complimentary to the same cause.
Hanover September 14, 2025 at 19:58 #1013045
Reply to DifferentiatingEgg Complementary, not complimentary.