Reply to Hanover Thanks, unc.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Heh, grandstanding aside, sounds like you both need to put in more work to understand Nietzsche.

Understandable. I've never picked up a book of his, to my recollection? That said, I'm fairly confident of my grasp and mastery over the English language which warrants enough for me to understand and constructively criticize a simple sentence or statement. I like to think so anyway. :lol:

Besides, you'll note my post was largely more inquisitive than declaratory. Seeking to clarify an opinion vs. seeking to supplant one.

Also, I don't consider standing up for the value of my fellow (albeit "meeker") human being grandstanding at all. In fact, I find it a bare minimum requirement to even be able to consider oneself a decent actual human being at all, quite frankly. Just my upbringing.

But point taken. And thank you for the insight. I'm sure it'll come in handy, one day, perhaps.

They chase knowledge, virtue, salvation — yet forget the one lesson worth learning: how to move like a god drunk on the music of chance.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Thanks

U Wlx.

This is my Fredrest.

Quoting Hanover

U Wlx.

What degradation is this.

Tomorrow we'll be texting one another "T" instead of "thank you" in anticipation of receiving a "W" in response in lieu of "you're welcome". Are you pleased with yourself and the direction you're propelling the world toward?

Reply to Outlander Sry!

Quoting Hanover

This is my Fredrest.

I am impressed. I see you have an inground pool for your goats.

Reply to Hanover

Is that an antique Coke machine?

Quoting Nils Loc

Just do it!®

What does that mean? Do you have to forfeit all the money you earn from saying that in the Shoutbox?

Quoting praxis

Is that an antique Coke machine?

I thought the same. :sweat:

It seems that Reply to Hanover has an old Coke machine that he (probably) stole from a random restaurant or gas station.

Reply to javi2541997

That is not a Coke® machine. It is a sign on the wall. Hanover is a proud Coke® supporter and would probably never charge someone money to offer one a genuine Coca-Cola.

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Are you sure?

Perhaps it's an optical illusion, but it appears to be hanging from the wall rather than stuck.

Google AI tells me that Metaphysician Undercover® is an unlawful (in other words awful) use of the symbol.

Please don't ban me from the Shoutbox, or lock me up in jail. I'll take back all my awful uses of words if required.

Reply to javi2541997
It's a 3d sign, probably originally had a light inside which doesn't work anymore, making it less valuable as an antique, but still an interesting wall piece.

Quoting javi2541997

Perhaps it's an optical illusion, but it appears to be hanging from the wall rather than stuck.

That entire side of the house is filled with Coke.

In the 1800s when Alexander Von Coca-Cola was traveling door to door selling his ice cold magical elixir to the heat delirious Southerners, young Jebidiah Botheafius Hanoveriwitz (later shortened to its current form) was gifted the sign under the condition the Coca-Cola company could anchor it securely in the ground so as to preserve it for eternity.

After speaking with his wife Delicious Muffincake Hanoverewitz (she insisted upon a slightly variant spelling), they agreed. The sign is attached with a bolt that enters the planet in Georgia and exits in China, where it is fastened tightly with a nut, turned with a Craftsman 3/4" drive ratchet, purchased from Ebenezer Roebuck Sears.

The sign so securely fastened has become a literal anchor for the community, with cables and chains attached thereto to secure buildings and structures of all kinds. The house you see is held in place by the sign, having survived at least a dozen dozen (12^2) tornadoes and attempted towings as the result.

Thank you for asking about my sign that you saw in the background as I relaxed with my Fredrest

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Who cares about your reaction towards Praxis' use of the word meek?

Ooh sir, sir, I know, sir. It's you!

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

It's a 3d sign,

Wow!

By the way, did anyone notice the Pennyhead just under Fred's tongue?

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

What does that mean?

It's Nike's (shoe company) famous trade marked advertising motto. Thought the brand synergy might compliment/complement Nietzsche and his exhortations.

Will to power? Just do it!

The deed precedes the meaning—only after the leap does the ground appear beneath the well-shoed foot.

Quoting praxis

The deed precedes the meaning—only after the leap does the ground appear beneath the well-shoed foot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

You f up. Your mind makes the best of it. No matter how hard it has to strain one's morals or sense of...anything, really. It's how the theory of evolution purports to be. You survive, because you have to, no matter the cost. Adult version of "when life gives you lemons...", except it attempts to answer the obvious criticism by imaginary backtracking.

To herdonically adapt is to stagnate; to overcome is to live.

Quoting praxis

The deed precedes the meaning—only after the leap does the ground appear beneath the well-shoed foot.

I like that, although I don’t think I know what it means.

Quoting praxis

The deed precedes the meaning—only after the leap does the ground appear beneath the well-shoed foot.

Thinking more, maybe I do know what it means.

Reply to unenlightened Nah, I merely addressed him for complaining about something he misinterpreted. The only one who cares about his reaction towards the word meek was him. I care about him holding Nietzsche in some perspective as if he were a Nazi sympathizer.

It's true I've the deepest understanding of Nietzsche's works here on this forum because I understand how to follow his works, and Outlander was lambasting against Nietzsche's perspective based off of what Praxis said. To which I corrected at least a little bit though there's certainly more lessons I could give on his works and perspective.

Quoting praxis

Is that an antique Coke machine?

Hanover lives in a trailer park. That's the amenities block, just past the kiddies wading pool. They haven't bothered to update the Coke machine. The goats are in the kid's petting zoo. The dog is wondering why one of the residents is on the boss's verandah, but doesn't mind so long as Hanover plays fetch.

Reply to Banno

Poverty is no excuse for Fredrestery.

Reply to praxis Not an excuse, but perhaps an explanation. Fredrestery is for the disempowered, narcissists, and striplings. Most folk grow out of it in adolescence and young adulthood, a result of structural growth in the brain, especially in the prefrontal cortex, allowing for more complex, balanced empathy — being able to feel with someone while keeping enough regulation to respond constructively.

Some don't.

Reply to Banno

Ah, the old I’ve got an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex defense. I’m sure the Humane Society has heard it all.

Quoting praxis

Poverty is no excuse for Fredrestery.

Perhaps Fred doesn't know about the economical status of the folks, and he plays the "Fredrest" because he enjoys it.

By the way, I think I am using "perhaps" more than I used to. I like that adverb; it seems friendly to me. The translation of 'perhaps' in Spanish is 'quizás'. I guess it reminds you of a song by Nat King Cole.

Quoting javi2541997

By the way, I think I am using "perhaps" more than I used to. I like that adverb; it seems friendly to me. The translation of 'perhaps' in Spanish is 'quizás'. I guess it reminds you of a song by Nat King Cole.

My immediate thought was to suggest "perchance." No one would think English your second language if you did that. Other words I found you might want to try are peradventure, percase, and the always enjoyable mayhap and haply.

When in doubt, speak like Shakespeare.

I do it subtly sometimes myself, as in the sentence "No one would think English your second language," intentionally not saying "No one would think English was your second language." The dropping of the verb when it is implied from the sentence is referred to as a copular ellipsis, which I don't think gets its due.

EDIT: We could also say "were" instead of "was" there, maintaining the subjunctive, but I like removing it entirely. It sounds better.

Admittedly, this one gave me a good, hard laugh:

Lmao he follows them around everywhere in DC playing the Imperial March from Star Wars. — 2025 Sep 15 · 1m:33s

Does that make me a bad person?

Quoting jorndoe

Does that make me a bad person?

No, just a person doing a bad thing, which was less the laughing to yourself than the reposting of the video.

Laughing at a guy paid to patrol the streets, to pick up garbage, or even to create a show of force that may or may not be effective doesn't strike me as funny at all. It's possible to respect human beings even if you don't respect what they do, and certainly not to mock them.

In any event, if you have to wonder whether what you're doing is bad, maybe do something else.

Reply to Hanover, party pooper ;)

Quoting Hanover

The dropping of the verb when it is implied from the sentence is referred to as a copular ellipsis, which I don't think gets its due.

What ungodly school did you learn that from. Google barely has an entry for it.

Quoting Hanover

EDIT: We could also say "were" instead of "was" there, maintaining the subjunctive, but I like removing it entirely. It sounds better.

What happened to is? :chin:

Quoting Hanover

No one would think English your second language if you did that.

What if I want to make people think otherwise? :smirk:


Quoting Hanover

When in doubt, speak like Shakespeare.

I want to speak like him :starstruck: :

Lo, behold these iron-clad watchmen, clad in sable raiment and visor’d helms, whom the commons name the storm-troopers of this modern Rome. With measured step they march, their shields like brazen walls, their batons thunder as if Jove himself did lend them wrath. They stand not as men of flesh, but phantoms wrought of steel and fear, to awe the restless crowd and bind rebellion ere it speaks. A strange theatre is this city, where liberty and power contend, and these dark figures strut the stage betwixt the people and their sovereign lords.

Quoting Hanover

In any event, if you have to wonder whether what you're doing is bad, maybe do something else.

But then I wouldn’t do anything at all.

Quoting praxis

Lo, behold these iron-clad watchmen, clad in sable raiment and visor’d helms, whom the commons name the storm-troopers of this modern Rome. With measured step they march, their shields like brazen walls, their batons thunder as if Jove himself did lend them wrath. They stand not as men of flesh, but phantoms wrought of steel and fear, to awe the restless crowd and bind rebellion ere it speaks. A strange theatre is this city, where liberty and power contend, and these dark figures strut the stage betwixt the people and their sovereign lords

Lots of good quotes recently. I’m guessing that one’s not from Nietzsche.

Quoting javi2541997

I want to speak like him

He looks like Elon Musk‘s bastard half brother.

Reply to T Clark

This life, which had been the tomb of virtue and of honor, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Quoting Outlander

What happened to is?

I do like that because it sets up for the archaic present tense subjunctive "No one would think English be your second language."

I'm not sure whether I like that or the verb elidement better.

Quoting Outlander

What ungodly school did you learn that from. Google barely has an entry for it.

The copula (to be) is often ommitted in present tense biblical Hebrew, leading to English translations that hold to that form, as in, "The Lord my shepherd, I shall not want," as opposed to "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want."

Reply to T Clark

Quoting Hanover

Other words I found you might want to try are peradventure, percase, and the always enjoyable mayhap and haply.

I like happenstance.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

I like happenstance.

So instead of saying "Perhaps I'll eat an apple," you say "Happenstance I'll eat an apple"?

While that mayhap convey the same thought, it's not how God intended we talk.

Quoting T Clark

But then I wouldn’t do anything at all.

That's what you're best at, so don't not do that.

Reply to Hanover
Freedom of speech man. We can argue God intended nothing in that respect. Go forth and make noise.

Well, it turns out that antioxidants are currently a trending topic here. I just checked on the Internet which are the aliments with more antioxidants, and it says that food with vitamin A, vitamin C and vitamin E are confirmed as dietary antioxidants. For example: mangoes, oranges, strawberries, blueberries, tomatoes, nuts, green leafy vegetables, kiwifruit and vegetable oil.

Honestly, I always considered these products as ordinary, but perhaps I was missing something. From now on, I will try to always have mangoes and strawberries in my fridge. Just in case. Probably, they would help me in a zombie apocalypse.

Quoting javi2541997

they would help me in a zombie apocalypse.

It is well known that zombies cannot speak Spanish, so you should have nothing to worry about.

Quoting T Clark

It is well known that zombies cannot speak Spanish, so you should have nothing to worry about.

True.

But I guess they would want to devour me anyway.

Quoting javi2541997

antioxidants are currently a trending topic here

Polyphenol oxidase is trending in the health crazed US. Fruits that brown when exposed to oxygen, like apples and bananas, can destroy the antioxidant power of phenolic compounds (which make up the bulk of dietary antioxidants). Your fresh/frozen banana in your smoothie will destroy most phenolic antioxidants in 10 minutes or so.

A useless fact unless banana is a staple for you and you care about polyphenols.

Reply to Nils Loc

I care about bananas and antioxidants although they do not pair well with each other, but you know that food – sometimes – is fussy.

Quoting Nils Loc

Your fresh/frozen banana in your smoothie will destroy most phenolic antioxidants in 10 minutes or so.

And be careful how you store these fruits in the fridge too, because they can ruin the other stuff in there through the release of ethylene gas.

Reply to javi2541997 Everything you have stored in your fridge and pantry will help you out-wait and survive the Zombies. You don't want to run out of food while they are moaning and milling around outside your front door. In addition to not speaking Spanish, zombies can not climb stairs, so it would be good to have a second floor in your house. The stair problem is why Chicago built an extensive network of elevated trains. It enabled Chicagoans to climb up to the station level and take a train to some other part of town that wasn't currently being bothered by zombies. Boston did too, but they dismantled it, after zombies were elected to a majority of the board of the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority.

As for one antioxidant devouring another one in an adjacent fruit, I'm not too concerned, because the best food policy is to eat a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts, legumes, and whole grains. This will not, of course, guarantee a long life, or deter zombies from trying to eat your brain. A wide variety of foods ought to work out reasonably well for health outcomes. I also include yoghurt, pork chops, chicken, beef, and canned fish in a well balanced diet.

Practically anything that is "trending" is suspect, in my book. "Trending" and "influencers" are equally dubious.

Question: would a diet consisting entirely of highly processed junk food, hydrogenated fats, salt, high fructose corn syrup (my favorite) etc. make one's brain more or less attractive to zombies? I mean, if your brain was already rotting from too much corn syrup and hydrogenated recycled fat, would that appeal to zombie tastes, or not?

Question: do zombies have functioning taste buds?

Quoting BC

Boston did too, but they dismantled it, after zombies were elected to a majority of the board of the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority.

The Boston school system has addressed this problem by requiring all students to study Spanish.

All our times have come
Here, but now they're gone
Seasons don't fear the Reaper
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
--BOC

Reply to frank

Feeling a bet melancholy, frank? :meh:

It's okay. This is the judgement-free zone. :smile:

Reply to Nils Loc Anti-oxidants failed to reduce free radicals in human neurons and had no effect on Alzheimers, MS, Parkinson's or anything really, so there's no scientific basis to consume them. That's what I heard at least.

Quoting Nils Loc

Polyphenol oxidase is trending in the health crazed US. Fruits that brown when exposed to oxygen, like apples and bananas, can destroy the antioxidant power of phenolic compounds (which make up the bulk of dietary antioxidants). Your fresh/frozen banana in your smoothie will destroy most phenolic antioxidants in 10 minutes or so.

A useless fact unless banana is a staple for you and you care about polyphenols.

I've been having green smoothies regularly in the morning for a few years and almost always include a banana, and less often an apple as well. Just read that adding citrus will counteract the oxidation somewhat.

Quoting Hanover

so there's no scientific basis to consume them.

Wouldn't go so far to say there is no basis to consume them but it is generally accepted that phenolic compounds are not very bio available. Much of the effects might be gut mediated, microbes creating secondary metabolites which have consequences via the gut brain axis. Other unwanted effects might include phenolic compounds acting as chelating agents, binding to mineral nutrients, like Iron.

This is not true of carotenoids, which bio accumulate in fat, and possibly provide a measure of protection against free radical damage caused by sun radiation. Plus they give you and your butter a sexy yellow/orange glow.

Quoting praxis

Just read that adding citrus will counteract the oxidation somewhat.

I've had the same breakfast for years, a banana, bean, hemp, cocoa, soy milk smoothie. I was cooking my bananas (to destroy oxidase) and freezing them for a while but recently have gotten lazy.

Quoting BC

Question: would a diet consisting entirely of highly processed junk food, hydrogenated fats, salt, high fructose corn syrup (my favorite) etc. make one's brain more or less attractive to zombies? I mean, if your brain was already rotting from too much corn syrup and hydrogenated recycled fat, would that appeal to zombie tastes, or not?

I think not. Even zombies (bodies who only follow stimuli without reasoning) would avoid a brain, or the body altogether, if the victim lacks a dietary antioxidant food. Furthermore, it would probably taste worse for them. I don't have evidence because I have never met a zombie, but I guess it is obvious. Would you eat a chicken (for example) that is sick because it didn't have a healthy life on the farm? Zombies also value this when it comes to the time of eating people.

Quoting BC

Question: do zombies have functioning taste buds?

Yes -- I wish I could prove it.

Quoting T Clark

The Boston school system has addressed this problem by requiring all students to study Spanish.

LMAO. Cracked me up when I read it. :lol:

Quoting javi2541997

Would you eat a chicken (for example) that is sick because it didn't have a healthy life on the farm?

In the good old days, chickens were kept in small coops and were outside a lot eating bugs. grass, seeds, etc. They were sometimes fed grain, but a very small flock was left to its own devices. Chicken wasn't so common back then. Quite often one bought the chicken alive, took it home and butchered it, then cooked it.

Very few of the chickens eaten today in the United States have ever walked around in grass, quietly clucking over whatever interests their bird brains. They are essentially raised in a factory; they grow fast, and one day the whole flock is hauled off to a slaughter house.

There are some "free range" chickens that lay expensive eggs. Allegedly, they spend real time outdoors, but this is doubtful in many cases -- especially for major producers. Imagine having 100,000 chickens outside in the hot Texas sun. Imagine the hawks, foxes, coyotes, etc. Not going to happen,

So, getting back to the important topic of zombies: in their lives before the grave, they ate and liked the sick chicken on offer. SO, we sick primates aren't going to pose any problems for zombies who, I have heard, are not picky eaters.

Quoting BC

Allegedly, they spend real time outdoors, but this is doubtful in many cases -- especially for major producers. Imagine having 100,000 chickens outside in the hot Texas sun. Imagine the hawks, foxes, coyotes, etc. Not going to happen

Yeah. Chickens can grow outdoors, but only in small groups. A friend of mine has around 5 or 6 (less than ten) chickens on his farm, but they are lot locked. They walk free here and there, and I think they are friends with the donkey and with the dogs. I remember seeing a chicken eating a watermelon voraciously. Since then, I learnt that chickens are watermelon lovers, and they are also in the antioxidant diet trend.

Quoting BC

SO, we sick primates aren't going to pose any problems for zombies who, I have heard, are not picky eaters.

Yeah. They eat whoever human they meet, but I think they can distinguish between people with vitamins and people without, as well as we distinguish between junk food and antioxidants.

What troubles me most about the Kimmel suspension is the network's immediate capitulation to the government regulators, showing no sense of resilience in the face of a direct attack on the raison d’être of the press, which is the free exercise of speech, even if stupid (which Kimmel's comments were). We expect the state to try to overreach and be tyrannical, which is why we have the Bill of Rights in the first place. What we also have to expect is fight by the citizenry when those rights are being imposed upon, but which the network clearly doesn't have. There was a time when the American press was looking for such fights, but now they are more content with pragmatics in terms of making sure they make their profit margins.

But what's more troubling is that there is no way this problem just emerged in the past year and a half under Trump. These are the same execs making the decisions they have for some time, which means we can rest assured that the information we have been receiving from these sources has for a good while been nothing but propaganda advanced by whatever political force required they be.

What this means is that Kimmel was propoganda and the new sheriff is installing his mouthpiece now.

Quoting Hanover

What troubles me most about the Kimmel suspension is the network's immediate capitulation to the government regulators, showing no sense of resilience in the face of a direct attack on the raison d’être of the press, which is the free exercise of speech

It's almost like they care about money more than right and wrong. Weird. Totally bizarre. Like something out of a George Orwell novel. :smirk:

Quoting Hanover

But what's more troubling is that there is no way this problem just emerged in the past year and a half under Trump.

And the critique of propaganda vs. objective factual discourse didn't just emerge in the last 18 months either.

Those who possess economic and political power, and those trying to get it, always have a vital interest in what is presented as "reality". The view that dominates is, of course, that of those at the top of the heap.

Kimmel isn't alone in supposing that Kirk and Robinson have similar origins--my choice is the often crazy-making internet which seems to push or pull people into ever more elaborate conspiracy thinking.

[quote= Jimmy Kimmel]"The Maga Gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.

"This is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he calls a friend. This is how a four-year-old mourns a goldfish."[/quote]

Hard to believe Kimmel was canceled just for these comments.

The FCC chair is a Trump appointed lickspittle, threatening to pull ABC's broadcast license.

Guess Trump is the god emperor now. Long live our dear leader, who knows what is real and what is true and how we should feel and what we should say.

[quote= Donald Trump]“Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.”[/quote]

It's better to never mean what you say because then you'd have to be held accountable for saying what you would mean if you really meant what you said.

Do whatever you want dear leader. Say whatever, do whatever. The god emperor can have whatever his heart desires. His word is truth until it self destructs. His spit is ambrosia if kept on ice. May his enemies be incinerated in ovens. His immorality is moral for as long as he says so. War is peace on Sundays. Freedom is slavery because the slaves do your work for you. Love is money because it buys sex. Bla bla bla...

Jesus Christ, help us off this amusement ride!

Quoting Nils Loc

Hard to believe Kimmel was canceled just for these comments.

As an aside, there was a time when late night talk shows were supposed to be funny. Now they've turned political. I think that's the case at least. I haven't watched late night broadcast TV in forever.

I do remember when David Letterman was really funny, or so I thought so, like back in the 80s. He got bitter and then he grew out his beard like a homeless guy.

Quoting Outlander

It's almost like they care about money more than right and wrong.

It seems like there was a time when the press loved to file lawsuits and take the government on. Maybe that got them street cred and made the money in the long run and now it doesn't. It's like they canceled Kimmel so now the people who never watched him anyway won't have to not watch him anymore.

And I don't even understand what he was talking about. He said the shooter was MAGA and MAGA is falsely blaming the left for what MAGA did. The shooter wasn't MAGA though. I don't know it's offensive to be wrong as much as it's just wrong to be wrong.

Reply to praxis Exhaust the fuel to the fervor of their fire, and lo—Caesar riseth again! plying his hand upon the weary mind of men.

Quoting Hanover

He got bitter and then he grew out his beard like a homeless guy.

“Just kill ‘em.”
—Brian Kilmeade

Quoting Nils Loc

Jesus Christ, help us off this amusement ride!

To paraphrase a song from the Joni Mitchell

And the painted asses go down and up
we're captive on a carousel of trump

...We go round and round
In the circle game of lies

Quoting Hanover

there was a time when the press

Bear in mind that "the press" was never what it used to be, and seems to be more so all the time.

Reply to DifferentiatingEgg So, the all-knowing AI says this is LIKE Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, but is from a modern source; it just doesn't know what that source is. I thought AI were trained on EVERTHING. Maybe the critical book fell on the floor while AI was busy reading everything OR, better, maybe you made it up?

Whatever, you have stumped the electronic mind. Congratulations!!

From the NYT: President Trump said federal regulators should revoke broadcast licenses over late-night hosts who speak negatively about him, a day after ABC pulled Jimmy Kimmel’s show “indefinitely” after pressure from the Federal Communications Commission chairman.

What are late night hosts for but to speak negatively about Donald Trump (and whoever else occupies or would like to occupy or once did occupy the White House)?

Reply to BC There's a pattern...

Trump vows to jail anyone who says he’s against free speech

Journalists have also been warned that if you ask any questions about free speech, Trump will call your countries leader and dob on you in the hopes you are arrested there too.

Australia's ABC was barred from A UK press conference with Trump after a reporter asked an impertinent question.

Free speech is a flexible thing.

Two words I like:

Erstwhile — it means “former,” but its meaning is difficult to pick up from context so it is often misused as meaning something like “valued” or “worthy.” That’s what I used to think it meant, but thankfully, I never used it in a sentence.

Incommensurable — it means apples and oranges in the context of two different arguments. They can’t be successfully resolved because they are based on incompatible definitions, assumptions, or basic understandings. I just learned this word and I’m using it as often as I can.

Trump Spends Entire U.K. Trip Trying To Figure Out Where He Knows Prince Andrew From
[sup]— The Onion · Sep 18, 2025[/sup]

It's like if the police say they're going to arrest you if you wear red shoes when it's not illegal to wear red shoes, you probably won't wear red shoes because the cost of proving you can wear red shoes isn't worth it and you're not completely sure the courts won't just make up a rule that says you weren't supposed to wear shoes.

So what happens is we complain about the police exercising power through threat they probably don't have, but we never challenge it, so they keep at it. Unless someone is going to go through the process of being arrested for red shoes, we'll never let the courts decide if it's legal.

Substitute "questioning the Kirk narrative on the public airwaves" for red shoes for my point.



All those in favor shoukd wear red shoes as a show of allegiance.

This is the real reason why Kimmel should have been canceled:

Does anyone know what that number means?

It's political correctness gone maga.

Reply to javi2541997

That’s the number of posts you’ve made that don’t include the word “pomegranate”

Quoting T Clark

That’s the number of posts you’ve made that don’t include the word “pomegranate”

Thanks! Buenas tardes, señor. :cool:

Reply to BC Yeah, that source would be me.

But you can read Gay Science fourth part of the 23rd in book first

Nietzsche :Fourthly, it is when "morals decay" that those beings whom one calls tyrants first make their appearance; they are the forerunners of the individual, and as it were early matured firstlings. Yet a little while, and this fruit of fruits hangs ripe and yellow on the tree of a people,—and only for the sake of such fruit did this tree exist! When the decay has reached its worst, and likewise the conflict of all sorts of tyrants, there always arises the Cæsar, the final tyrant, who puts an end to the exhausted struggle for sovereignty, by making the exhaustedness work for him.

Quoting Hanover

It's like if the police say they're going to arrest you if you wear red shoes when it's not illegal to wear red shoes, you probably won't wear red shoes because the cost of proving you can wear red shoes isn't worth it and you're not completely sure the courts won't just make up a rule that says you weren't supposed to wear shoes.

So what happens is we complain about the police exercising power through threat they probably don't have, but we never challenge it, so they keep at it. Unless someone is going to go through the process of being arrested for red shoes, we'll never let the courts decide if it's legal.

Substitute "questioning the Kirk narrative on the public airwaves" for red shoes for my point.

i2s4vrrwp3q4agok.jpg

All those in favor shoukd wear red shoes as a show of allegiance.

Virtue signaling. Mass hysteria. "Groupthink." Social grandstanding. Bystander effect. The valueless (if not in their own head) seeking value. Take your pick.

People want to be popular and/or liked. To be part of the "in group." Not a loser. You know the tired old sayings.

But I am curious as to how this compares to other related incidents. Like when Steve Scalise (sic) was shot. Were there people laughing saying he deserved it or expressing sentiments like "too bad he wasn't killed." There are videos of people expressing the latter when Trump was shot at. I can't find the candid street interview but there's also this article that is similar.

I mean, it's basically whenever a figure is somewhat controversial. Thanks to your postings, I'm not seeing Charlie Kirk, that is to say the arguments or attitudes some hold toward him, as very valid. That said I can imagine being a non-theist and a female thinking the idea of "anti-abortion" is just a random institution made to control the lives and bodies of women, thus possibly rubbing a large portion of the populous the wrong way, despite that not being his intention at all. Basically, if some random guy like you or me got shot and killed and you made a post laughing at it, wouldn't that just look kind of odd and show a disturbing insight into one's mind and stoke warranted distrust/scrutiny. That in turn an employer might see and be like "yeah this guy's no good" and so terminate the person without any controversy?

People laughed when Saddam Hussein died because he was a "dictator" and "terrorist". Socially that makes it the right thing to do. At least not a wrong thing. But without going off on an unrelated tangent, it just seems interesting is all.

In my upbringing, we're supposed to be "in the world, not of it." Or something. As of late, that's been making more and more sense than ever.

I tripped across this on the web. It’s the clearest definition of statistical mechanics that I’ve found.

…when we have a system that is composed of a large number of identical elements, we can observe the behavior of an individual element to predict the behavior of the system, or we can observe the behavior of the large system to find the probable behaviors of individual elements. The study of this two-way translation is called statistical mechanics.

Reply to T Clark

I call this "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"-ology. I've had to flee several dozen countries and two contested territories in order to remain alive after propagating such ideas unto the general public.

Quoting Outlander

I've had to flee several dozen countries and two contested territories in order to remain alive after propagating such ideas unto the general public.

I don’t understand.

Quoting T Clark

I don’t understand.

People don't like thinking. Yours is a complicated notion. Which requires it. Oh never mind. At the same time, case and point.

I just received an email from Medicare. That’s something that happens often when you get to be my age here in the US. This time, though it came directly from Dr. Oz and it includes a video of him showing how to make squash soup. We’re doomed…doomed!!

Quoting T Clark

...squash soup...

Squash, as in pumpkin?

Quoting Outlander

we're supposed to be "in the world, not of it."

This is very familiar territory to me, too. But... We are OF the world, which is how we happen to be IN the world. I may not like the world as it is, but, (for me) there is no other world awaiting which might justify not being OF the world.

Quoting Outlander

expressing sentiments like "too bad he wasn't killed."

Political murder, or attempted political murder, is not such a rare thing in our history (and others' histories as well). 7 out of 45 presidents have at least been shot at; 4 have been assassinated (Lincoln (1865), Garfield (1881), McKinley (1901), and Kennedy (1963). Ronald Reagan, T. Roosevelt and D. Trump were wounded while in office or campaigning. A much larger number of various office holders have been shot and/or killed.

A lot of people in this country are shot and or killed; no news there. The background of so many thousands of people being killed and/or wounded inflects the meaning of politicians' deaths or injury. Motive and victim are somewhat irrelevant to the record of violence in America. That's why it is easy to say, "too bad he wasn't killed." But some deaths clearly have greater consequences than others. Lincoln's and Kennedy's assassinations had very definite consequences. Garfield and McKinley? Not sure what consequences followed. The deaths of Reagan and Trump might have been very consequential--how is not at all clear, and whatever might have followed their deaths could have been very bad for everyone.

Quoting Banno

Squash, as in pumpkin?

All pumpkins are squashes, but not all squashes are pumpkins.

Quoting BC

Garfield and McKinley? Not sure what consequences followed.

Didn’t Roosevelt become president when McKinley was killed? I could look that up, but I’m not going to.

Quoting BC

This is very familiar territory to me, too. But... We are OF the world, which is how we happen to be IN the world. I may not like the world as it is, but, (for me) there is no other world awaiting which might justify not being OF the world.

My point, since you've questioned it, though a bit too religious for this crowd, is, per doctrine, of course, take it as you may, is that while this world and all psychicality in it may pass away, since God is in us (or something of that nature) we shall remain and therefore have little need or reason to think much of what goes on here.

At least, that's what they say. Whether that's simply a Bronze Age metaphoric pep talk before war, or something much more, that, my friend, is up to the individual to decide.

Reply to T Clark so which was the soup? Squash soup sounds very plain.

Like stone soup.

Quoting Banno

Like stone soup.

Quoting T Clark

Didn’t Roosevelt become president when McKinley was killed? I could look that up, but I’m not going to.

McKinley was killed and turned into Danali and then Trump resurrected him.

Quoting Banno

so which was the soup? Squash soup sounds very plain.

Around my house, squash soup usually means acorn squash, which I am not particularly fond of.

I grow decorative gourds and make bird houses of them. Once home to a songbird, I remove them, boil them whole, and enjoy them as a stew, green curry, not red, laughing as I chew my last bite, singing "wasn't that a dainty dish to set before a king. "

That's how I enjoy my squash.

Reply to T Clark You are correct -- Theodore Roosevelt. And Roosevelt commenced the Progressive Era. Did Leon Czolgosz, McKinley's anarchist assassin, intend to promote the progressive cause? Or was it an instance of the principle that "It is an ill wind indeed that blows nobody good"?

Reply to T Clark Acorn squash is "serviceable". It is not the tastiest squash. That honor, in my squashy opinion, goes to buttercup squash.

Quoting T Clark

I just received an email from Medicare. That’s something that happens often when you get to be my age here in the US. This time, though it came directly from Dr. Oz and it includes a video of him showing how to make squash soup. We’re doomed…doomed!!

I am jealous. You received an email from a doctor. My inbox is basically full of power bills.

You cut the acorn squash in half, clean the guts, put on broiler pan, pour maple syrup in the cavity, dust with nutmeg, bake over an hour until soft, swet and delicious.

It's a Thanksgiving treat.

Quoting Hanover

pour maple syrup in the cavity,

The best! With well produced maple syrup you can never go wrong. Only, you forgot to mention the butter.

Quoting Hanover

You cut the acorn squash in half, clean the guts, put on broiler pan, pour maple syrup in the cavity, dust with nutmeg, bake over an hour until soft, swet and delicious.

I think it's easier and faster to steam it in a rice cooker, then put sliced almonds and honey over it. The broiling takes forever.

Quoting frank

You cut the acorn squash in half, clean the guts, put on broiler pan, pour maple syrup in the cavity, dust with nutmeg, bake over an hour until soft, swet and delicious.
— Hanover

I think it's easier and faster to steam it in a rice cooker, then put sliced almonds and honey over it. The broiling takes forever.

Yes, but I get it browned with a less soggy texture and let's not pretend our schedules so demanding the extra time needed.

Brilliant double use of the copula ellipses there I must say. You blew an opportunity. You could have said "I think it easier and faster..." omitting the is.

Reply to frank The heat induces the Maillard reaction, browning the pumpkin - caramelisation and much more flavour. Ripe pumpkin should be sweet enough without extra sugar. Add ginger or even orange juice. Keep the maple syrup for other cavities.

Quoting Banno

Keep the maple syrup for other cavities.

Are maples native to Australia? Have they been transplanted there?

Quoting T Clark

Are maples native to Australia?

Certainly not. Why do you ask? Canada provides sufficient, in exchange for our cutting edge over the horizon radar technology, permitting them to keep an eye on the movements of their adjacent enemies.

Only a very few countries no longer trade with one another.

Quoting Hanover

Yes, but I get it browned with a less soggy texture and let's not pretend our schedules so demanding the extra time needed.

Why does it need to be brown? Salmon is good steamed also.

Quoting Banno

The heat induces the Maillard reaction, browning the pumpkin - caramelisation and much more flavour. Ripe pumpkin should be sweet enough without extra sugar. Add ginger or even orange juice. Keep the maple syrup for other cavities.

An acorn squash is not a pumpkin.

Quoting BC

buttercup squash.

I didn't know there was a buttercup squash. Butternut is awesome.

Quoting frank

Why does it need to be brown?

An Introduction to the Maillard Reaction: The Science of Browning, Aroma, and Flavor

Quoting frank

An acorn squash is not a pumpkin.

Yeah, it is.

Reply to Banno
It occurs to me that I like steamed squash better because I like the fibrous texture, which isn't there when you broil it.

Quoting Banno

An acorn squash is not a pumpkin.
— frank
Yeah, it is.

So you just call all winter squashes pumpkins? How do you tell a spaghetti squash from a butternut squash? Pumpkin-s, and pumpkin-b?

Quoting Banno

Canada provides sufficient

According to Google AI, the largest theft (by dollar value) in Canadian history was The Great Canadian Maple Syrup Heist, 3000 tons of maple syrup valued at $18 million, stolen from the cartel, the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers.

Quoting frank

So you just call all winter squashes pumpkins? How do you tell a spaghetti squash from a butternut squash? Pumpkin-s, and pumpkin-b?

We've so been over this. All squash is planted at the same time. The time of harvest distinguishes types, but you could let your yellow squash mature to pumpkin hardness if you want hard yellow squash. The tough rind of the winter squash preserves it.

Alas, I feel @Jamal is correct. We will forever debate squash with no progress.

Quoting Hanover

We've so been over this. All squash is planted at the same time. The time of harvest distinguishes types, but you could let your yellow squash mature to pumpkin hardness if you want hard yellow squash. The tough rind of the winter squash preserves it.

This is why they won't let you teach biology.

Quoting frank

This is why they won't let you teach biology.

The biology of squash, alas again.

Zucchini and yellow are eaten immature, but even pumpkin can be as well, as in Indian dishes.

I am troubled by my mastery of squash and feel now I could have better spent my time here, like maybe arguing about the news cycle.

Quoting Hanover

We will forever debate squash with no progress.

I believe they are all gourds, so it's time to move along and discuss gourds now.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

I believe they are all gourds, so it's time to move along and discuss gourds now.

Alas, this was spoken of recently in my well told tale: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/1014071

Quoting Hanover

We will forever debate squash with no progress.

We should go back to the emdash and endash. Jamal will perhaps be pleased to know that I’ve started using the emdash instead of hyphen. I still can’t help but put a space before and after. I am working on that.

From the first Broadway production of Cats:

Reply to Hanover Food a bit scarce, at the trailer park?

Quoting Hanover

Alas, I feel Jamal is correct. We will forever debate squash with no progress.

Exactly.

The main issue is that you mates use many different words to refer to a single vegetable. English is such a beautiful language, but sometimes quite twisted.

Quoting frank

I didn't know there was a buttercup squash.

Well, there is. Here's a picture:



A ripe buttercup squash is best baked; it will have the slightly dry crumbly texture of a baked potato, but is very orange in color and flavor (very squashy) and slightly sweet.

It might be a regional favorite, or an older variety not much grown. Butternut squash (tan skin) is probably cultivated widely because it is a reliable cultivar, and keeps well on the shelf. As it happens, buttercup does not keep well in storage.

There are a lot of fruits and vegetables that are wonderful, but don't scale to high productivity. Prairie Spy apples, for instance, are excellent, but they don't produce every year. Ground cherries are delicious, but are not familiar to most people. (They are not a kind of cherry; the are related to tomatoes and tomatillos -- each fruit has a papery covering.). Kale is barely edible but ends up in everything these days. The Greeks and Romans ate it for medicinal purposes.

Go figure.

Quoting BC

Prairie Spy apples,

I like the name. The Prairie Spy is actually a modified version of the Northern Spy. While the Northern Spy was deployed to eastern Canada, it was soon discovered that a Prairie Spy was needed out west.

Reply to BC There are all kinds of things that squash looks like. I don't guess I need to mention any of them. Maybe it's called buttercup because you put a whole cup of butter on it?

At the market yesterday:



Are marrows, zucchinis, and courgettes also squashes?

Quoting T Clark

Jamal will perhaps be pleased to know that I’ve started using the emdash instead of hyphen. I still can’t help but put a space before and after. I am working on that.

:up:

Quoting Jamal

Are marrows, zucchinis, and courgettes also squashes?

No. They are just distant cousins.

Reply to Jamal
Quoting javi2541997

No. They are just distant cousins

Your answer was almost right. Where you said no, yes was the correct response.

Summer squashes and winter squashes are the same thing. You just pick winter squash later than summer squash. The thick rind of winter squash develops as it matures and it makes them longer lasting after picked. You could let a zucchini sit on the vine and develop a thick rind but it'd be woody. You can also eat a pumpkin young, but it'd taste different.

I just feel like it's so hard to change minds when it comes to squash.

Reply to Jamal And those are American cucumbers. The Brits eat something that is narrow and looks like a zucchini. Imagine thinking you bought zucchini and it's a cucumber. Well, that happened to me and my family once and there are still large potholes in the floor and broken glass in the yard from the shitstorm that ensued.

I just got back from the gym and I happened upon 2 dogs playing squash with a squash and both had squash related names. Prolly just a synchronicity coincidink.

Quoting Hanover

We will forever debate squash with no progress.

We forever debate everything without progress.

Quoting T Clark

We forever debate everything without progress.

Squash as a metaphor for life.

Reply to Hanover

Thanks for the info. The Russian growers of cucumbers will be interested to learn that they're actually called American cucumbers, which they probably never suspected. Anyway, yes, the Brits are a long way behind the Americans and the Russians when it comes to cucumbers.

This is part !. There is more to come. I commend it to you. A time before the drones, before, covid, before the shit actually hit the fan (again). Have a nice half-hour.

Quoting Jamal

Thanks for the info. The Russian growers of cucumbers will be interested to learn that they're actually called American cucumbers, which they probably never suspected. Anyway, yes, the Brits are a long way behind the Americans and the Russians when it comes to cucumbers.

So, yeah, I don't mean to sound overly sensitive or to
be overreading something here, but this sounds kind of lecturey, like maybe you're saying just because we have something in America, it's not necessarily American.

Reply to Jamal Downunder, the most popular variety is the "Lebanese cucumber".


A miniature version of the longer continental cucumber, better flavour and faster growing.

Although there seems to be some disagreement, “different than” and “different from” are both acceptable, but “different from” seems to be preferred.

Quoting T Clark

Although there seems to be some disagreement, “different than” and “different from” are both acceptable, but “different from” seems to be preferred.

Thanks.

I didn't know there was a disagreement. I think I use "different from" more than "different than", but I am not really sure now.

Reply to javi2541997 When one constructs a comparison, one says "this squash is bigger THAN that squash." One doesn't say, "this one is bigger FROM that one".

When examined closely, I don't think "from" in a comparison makes sense. It makes sense in subtraction --this FROM that. Well, take me out and shoot me then, because people say things whether they make sense or not, and everybody else understands them just fine.

So, say whatever you like.

Reply to BC :up: :up:

I also thought that "different than" makes more sense in comparisons.

As a result, I came to the following conclusion: I would use "different than" whenever I wanted to make a comparison, and "different from" in the rest of my daily life situations.

Quoting BC

So, say whatever you like.

Sometimes whatever we like is not the right choice. :sweat:

Reply to javi2541997 @BC

I see that an official Shoutbox Usage Conundrum has arisen for consideration, specifically related to "different from" versus "different than" usage. Same has been submitted to the Shoutbox Sanhedrin for consideration, with the following result:

Our sages have previously considered this matter here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/different-from-or-different-than and here: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/516/which-is-correct-is-different-from-or-is-different-than

You will note that consideration of "different to" is also an option.

It seems both "from" and "than" are acceptable, with "from" being British and American and "than" being more exclusively American. "From" appears to have more universal acceptance on both sides of the Atlantic and "than" is more limited to the land of the free.

I leave to Javi the decision whether to speak the King's English or its successor in interest's English.

Quoting Hanover

It seems both "from" and "than" are acceptable, with "from" being British and American and "than" being more exclusively American. "From" appears to have more universal acceptance on both sides of the Atlantic and "than" is more limited to the land of the free.

Why not "of" where "different" is equatable to "separate?"

"What I have to say is different of what my opponent says."

As noted:

"What I have to say is separate of what my opponent says."

Are these two sentences not valid English? Are they undecipherable? Certainly not.

Quoting Hanover

I leave to Javi the decision whether to speak the King's English or its successor in interest's English.

I am pretty bad at making decisions, particularly if something important is dependent upon me.

However, since you kindly asked me, I would go with "different from" because it is what I used to say. Otherwise, if I choose "different than", I think it would be a sterile decision because I guess I would keep saying "different from" because my subconscious would force me to do so.

Quoting Outlander

Are these two sentences not valid English? Are they undecipherable? Certainly not.

Sure, and you could say "is this not different about what my opponent had said?" and it it would be fully understood, particularly if you knew the speaker wasn't a native speaker. If our goal is to figure out far we can wander from standardized forms and still be understood, we could do that. I took the question more to be what is the proper standardized form.

Quoting javi2541997

I am pretty bad at making decisions,

Possibly, but in this instance, you knocked it out of the park with your decisiveness. Killed it!

Reply to Hanover

:cool: :victory:

"knocked it out of the park." -- I like this idiom. It is awesome.

"Dionysus, God of Passions, come to Thebes with your golden luster of abundance, flushed with wine in the rapturous frenzy of your followers, extinguish the abhorrent God of Death in the conflagration of your joyous fire!"

Nietzsche's whole philosophy boiled down from the Sophoclean Tragedy: Oedipus Rex. The very root central to his theme.

Quoting BC

When examined closely, I don't think "from" in a comparison makes sense. It makes sense in subtraction

I was not referring to comparisons in general. I was talking about two specific phrases—“different from” and “different than.” Your example—bigger than vs bigger from—is not relevant.

Quoting javi2541997

I also thought that "different than" makes more sense in comparisons.

As I noted, both are acceptable, but “different from” is preferred. BC’s example is not relevant.

Quoting Hanover

It seems both "from" and "than" are acceptable, with "from" being British and American and "than" being more exclusively American. "From" appears to have more universal acceptance on both sides of the Atlantic and "than" is more limited to the land of the free.

Amazingly, this is almost exactly what I wrote. This is you doing that fancy lawyer talk again, isn’t it.

Quoting T Clark

As I noted, both are acceptable, but “different from” is preferred. BC’s example is not relevant.

:scream:

@BC -- look at what Clarky said about your example.

Reply to javi2541997 Oh yes, I certainly noticed Clarky's failed attempt at my dismissal. He'll get his comeuppance one of these days.

Quoting T Clark

Amazingly, this is almost exactly what I wrote. This is you doing that fancy lawyer talk again, isn’t it.

I might not have read what you wrote and then we came upon the same conclusions independently just like that time when Newton and Leibniz both came up with calculus independently, but with us it was just more about than and from than stuff about the speed of a car at an infinitely small interval.

Quoting Hanover

I might not have read what you wrote and then we came upon the same conclusions independently just like that time when Newton and Leibniz both came up with calculus independently,

I get to be Newton.

Quoting BC

Oh yes, I certainly noticed Clarky's failed attempt at my dismissal. He'll get his comeuppance one of these days.

Straw Man fallacy—where someone distorts, exaggerates, or misrepresents another person's original argument to make it easier to attack.

Reply to T Clark Fine. You'll be Sir.

My opinion is different to Miriam Webster's, and I am English.

Quoting unenlightened

My opinion is different to Miriam Webster's, and I am English.

I thought you Welsh.

Quoting Hanover

I thought you Welsh.

Is that the ellipsis thingy again?

Quoting Hanover

I thought you Welsh.

Wait, I thought of a better one.

Is that the copulating lips thingy again?

Life is a roller coaster ride. You can throw your hands up and scream the whole way, or hold on tight, mentally fighting against it until your knuckles are pale from lack of bloodflow. When you get around to where the ride ends, it doesn't matter which one you did.

Quoting T Clark

Is that the ellipsis thingy again?

If you make faces too long, your face gets stuck that way, so, yes, that now how I speak. One day, likely in the next two or three, I will forget this and revert back to where ever I was.

Quoting frank

Life is a roller coaster ride. You can throw your hands up and scream the whole way, or hold on tight, mentally fighting against it until your knuckles are pale from lack of bloodflow. When you get around to where the ride ends, it doesn't matter which one you did.

I disagree.

Sometimes I think life is just a rodeo
The trick is to ride and make it to the bell
But there is a place, sweet as you will ever know
In music and love and things you never tell
You see it in their face, secrets on the telephone
A time out of time, for you and no one else

Reply to Hanover If you start stuttering on purpose, you may have a moment where you can't stop. I advise against it. Unless you want to stutter.

Quoting Hanover

Sometimes I think life is just a rodeo
The trick is to ride and make it to the bell
But there is a place, sweet as you will ever know
In music and love and things you never tell
You see it in their face, secrets on the telephone
A time out of time, for you and no one else

Yes, that too.

Sometimes I think life is just that period beginning right after your father ejaculates and ending when some weird kid in Utah shoots you. Also rodeos and rollercoasters.

Quoting T Clark

Sometimes I think life is just that period beginning right after your father ejaculates

I know you wanted just wanted to talk about ejaculation, but in so doing, you have placed yourself squarely in the pro-life camp, arguing that life begins not just at conception, but even moments before the little swimming men find their way to the lustful egg. For you, life begins at orgasm.

Well, the man's orgasm at least. Once again, you forget about the ladies. Once again.

Quoting Hanover

you have placed yourself squarely in the pro-life camp, arguing that life begins not just at conception, but even moments before the little swimming men find their way to the lustful egg.

I was aware of the implications of what I wrote when I wrote it. Given your understanding of my political leanings, you might interpret this as irony.

Quoting T Clark

I was aware of the implications of what I wrote when I wrote it. Given your understanding of my political leanings, you might interpret this as irony.

Nope, you're now a right winger. Be more careful with what you say next time. It's like saying "I do. " It's the danger of the performative statement.

Quoting Hanover

Nope, you're now a right winger. Be more careful with what you say next time. It's like saying "I do. " It's the danger of the performative statement.

Alas, I will register as Republican tomorrow. To think it would ever come to this. Will I have to meet Donald Trump Jr.?

Jimmy Kimmel back on air from next Tuesday! :clap:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/22/business/media/jimmy-kimmel-returns-abc.html?unlocked_article_code=1.oE8.1Iud.VB_5awuDxl6J&smid=url-share

Reply to frank It also doesn't matter which one you did after the roller coaster flies off the rail at maximum speed, killing everyone on board.

Tom Lehrer, quoting a relative living in the Massachusetts Home for the Bewildered, said that life is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

Quoting T Clark

Nope, you're now a right winger. Be more careful with what you say next time. It's like saying "I do. " It's the danger of the performative statement.
— Hanover

Alas, I will register as Republican tomorrow. To think it would ever come to this. Will I have to meet Donald Trump Jr.?

Is that a comeuppance already winging its way from Georgia to Massachusetts? As a newly minted MAGA man, you'll have to do a good deal more than merely meet Donald. Prepare to assume the position.

I ate a lobster roll at the fall festival and come an hour or so later I bout puked my guts out. Turns out lobster spread hanging out in the Georgia sun in a food truck sure's not the way it's supposed to be done. Anyway, I won't be doin that again any time soon. Y'all can keep that bullshit up north

Quoting Wayfarer

Jimmy Kimmel back on air from next Tuesday! :clap:

Is yours just the clap of justice or is it because you actually watched him and missed his show?

Quoting T Clark

Will I have to meet Donald Trump Jr.?

Not "have to." Get to.

Coulda also been the hot dogs I wolfed down at the sports bar watching some team lose to another. Barely got home to get my drawers down before the deluge bout busted out the porcelain. So"s not to bother my honey, I slept upright with shit cramps in the lazy boy, with the damn cat making biscuits in my already worn out belly.

Not sure if y'all noticed, but I done changed up my way of talkin now that I got me a fella Maga man to carry on with.

Quoting BC

Tom Lehrer, quoting a relative living in the Massachusetts Home for the Bewildered, said that life is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

Now I'm bewildered.

Quoting Hanover

Jimmy Kimmel back on air from next Tuesday! :clap:
— Wayfarer

Is yours just the clap of justice or is it because you actually watched him and missed his show?

I've never seen his show.

Quoting frank

I've never seen his show

Me neither. Years ago I did see his show "The Man Show" that always ended with girls in skirts bouncing on a trampoline.

Reply to Hanover His intro section (as well as Colbert’s) are in my youtube feed, I watch them from time to time. But it’s also a bellwether case for freedom of expression, which seems increasingly to be restricted to ‘those who don’t disagree with The President.’

[quote=NY Times] When President Trump returned to the Oval Office, he promised, unequivocally and emphatically, that he would protect free speech and ensure that no Americans — including his critics — would be punished for voicing their opinions.

But in the wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, those pledges have given way to threats and calls for retaliation, as administration officials promise to go after anyone they accuse of hateful or even uncivil commentary about the conservative activist and his Republican allies.[/quote]

Quoting frank

Now I'm bewildered.

Oh, sorry Frank; be not bewildered. You know who Tom Lehrer is, right? He is the author of several of my favorite comic lines. I forget that probably most people haven't memorized all his material.

Oh, I forgot to post what I took for breakfast today. It has been a while since the last time I posted something related to breakfast, actually.

Well, I ate cereal, nothing special. But the point is that the brand is called "Corny", and I searched on the Internet what "Corny" could mean.

Before doing my search, I thought that the word had a resemblance to "cheesy" or "fruity".

My surprise was that "corny" actually had different meanings, which I did not believe it could. According to Google, "corny" means "showing no new ideas" and therefore "not funny or interesting."

Nonetheless, I think the brand of the cereal box is a related word to the grain, although we could accept that cereals are not interesting.

Quoting Hanover

I thought you Welsh.

To be precise, I am of Scottish extraction, English by birth and resident in Wales.

But furthermore, no one is ever merely 'Welsh', but invariably 'very Welsh'. This is a somewhat tardy response to the Welsh Not, an early contrivance of ethnic cleansing through education.

Reply to BC Lehrer's song, The Elements is sung to the tune of "The Major General's Song" from The Pirates of Penzance, by Arthur Sullivan, as every skoolboy know, but I recently discovered that there is an extra note, and here it is:

Note: There exists a much earlier version of this song.
The complete lyrics, which are by Aristotle, are:
There's earth and air and fire and water.

Full details, including the piano accompaniment, sheet music and recording, can be found here. From now on I shall sing this every morning as my philosophy anthem to celebrate the superior wisdom of the ancients. Life was better when the elements were 4.

Reply to BC
That's ok. I'm permanently wildered.

The audacity of metaphysics is that it assumes we can achieve an essential vacuum free from all humanity in the deepest regions that are fundamentally the most human.

Quoting unenlightened

To be precise, I am of Scottish extraction, English by birth and resident in Wales.

Ah yes, that describes that aroma I couldn't put my finger on when you entered the room until now. It's the potpourri of Britishness.

Quoting javi2541997

My surprise was that "corny" actually had different meanings, which I did not believe it could. According to Google, "corny" means "showing no new ideas" and therefore "not funny or interesting."

I don't think that fully captures the meaning of "corny." A corny joke is usually a silly pun, usually not very clever, but never offensive, often told by kids or to kids.

Or maybe, since we're speaking of England, it refers to those things from Cornwall, like a Cornish Hen, for example. That would a corny joke by the way about corn.

Quoting Hanover

I don't think that fully captures the meaning of "corny." A corny joke is usually a silly pun, usually not very clever, but never offensive, often told by kids or to kids.

Or maybe, since we're speaking of England, it refers to those things from Cornwall, like a Cornish Hen, for example. That would a corny joke by the way about corn.

Ah, gotcha.

Thanks, uncle Hanover.

Cornish Hen and corny beer. Good combo!

One of the greatest scenes in film history is "the three seashells" in Demolition Man.

Quoting Hanover

I don't think that fully captures the meaning of "corny." A corny joke is usually a silly pun, usually not very clever, but never offensive, often told by kids or to kids.

Back in olden days, there was a country and bluegrass comedy duo called Homer and Jethro. They would tell silly jokes like the ones you're discussing. They did TV commercials for Kellogg's Corn Flakes. They'd tell a joke and then say "Aww, that's corny--corny as Kellogg's Corn Flakes." Cue banjo.

Quoting javi2541997

My surprise was that "corny" actually had different meanings, which I did not believe it could. According to Google, "corny" means "showing no new ideas" and therefore "not funny or interesting."

As Hanover noted, corny can be used to describe silly, childish humor. It can also be used more broadly than that to describe innocent, naive, unsophisticated thoughts of any kind in a condescending way. For example, expressing emotion very sentimentally can also be called "corny."

Quoting T Clark

For example, expressing emotion very sentimentally can also be called "corny."

Interesting.

I always learn something different. The Shoutbox and the English language are very elastic.

Reply to T Clark Leave it to Rogers & Hammerstein to elevate corn to about the level of an elephant's eye:

I'm as corny as Kansas in August,
I'm as normal as blueberry pie.
I'm as trite and as gay as a daisy in May,
A cliché comin' true!
I'm bromidic and bright
As a moon-happy night

Homer, Jethro, Grand Ole Opry, et al. WSM in Nashville is still broadcasting Grand Ole Opry as it has since 1925 a century of radio.

Here is another flavor of corn captured in cornpone:

Cold weather is back! :starstruck:




Fall started last Monday at 20:57 exactly. This is what my phone told me, at least. There is always disagreement on this, but I think cold weather and low temperatures are better than hot days of summer with an average of 38/40°C...

"Old Father's Quote #1. You can screw with the Laws of Man. If you are clever, you can get away with it - at least sometimes. If you try to screw with the Laws of Nature you end up screwing yourself. (2008-03-14)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk

Is the quote yours, Pieter?

Reply to javi2541997 :razz: Yes, I claim it as mine on the date mentioned. Unless proven otherwise

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk :up: :up:

Nice phrase! I was only 11 years old when you wrote it. I'm glad you shared it here years later.

Now, I can understand more English than when I was a toddler.

Reply to javi2541997

Thank you - there are 29 more to follow on this one.

Another Ukrainian comedian. Obscenity Warning! Not for delicate flowers!

OK -- White cotton and magnolia home fragrances are the best. Its aroma leaves a sweet taste in the ambience.

I like incense too, but I heard from some folks that it gives them headaches.

It is true that incense sticks are stronger – in terms of odour – than home fragrances.

Quoting javi2541997

I like incense too, but I heard from some folks that it gives them headaches.

It can damage lungs and some say it might cause lung cancer. I like incense and burn it every now and then. But then I used to smoke three packets a day... the stats tell us only 10 -20% of smokers get lung cancer...

Quoting Tom Storm

It can damage lungs and some say it might cause lung cancer.

Jesus! I didn't realise that. I never imagined incense sticks could be so harmful. I have always thought of it as a relaxed item.

Quoting Tom Storm

But then I used to smoke three packets a day... the stats tell us only 10 -20% of smokers get lung cancer...

Since you speak about the past, I guess you left tobacco. My mum is a smoker. Although she does not smoke as much as she used to, she still does. I try to help her to leave it, but it is nearly impossible...

"Old Father's Quote #2. The two fundamental errors of human beings are that we think we are clever, and we think we have an impact on things. We are not, and we do not. (2009-01-01)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

The two fundamental errors of human beings are that we think we are clever, and we think we have an impact on things. We are not, and we do not.

Why don't we have an impact on things? I really think we do.

Reply to javi2541997

We all think we do, don't we. Until you (or me) want to change such an impact ...

Quoting javi2541997

Since you speak about the past, I guess you left tobacco.

I quite booze and smokes: 11 years since I had a drink and 21 years since I quit smokes. I found quitting smoking the hardest.

Quoting Tom Storm

I quite booze and smokes: 11 years since I had a drink and 21 years since I quit smokes. I found quitting smoking the hardest.

Good job, Tom! You are an excellent example of self-control!

I have quit nicotine (vaping, mostly) three times over the past two years. Each time, I got through the intense withdrawal symptoms and came out the other side after a few weeks, and knew I'd never get hooked again.

But then, each time, a few months later I met my brother and started drinking, and before long began smoking his cigarettes, and then went to the shop to get my own cigarettes when he told me to stop smoking all his cigarettes, then kept on smoking the next day, then switched to vaping and tried to hide the fact from my wife until I finally went home and quit the nicotine entirely once again. Right now, it's been a week. :groan:

Reply to Jamal

Come on Jamal! Never give up; you can do it! :strong:

Reply to Jamal Yeah, I tried quitting smokes several times before it finally stuck. It seems to be part of the process. I think you do get better at it, recognizing the triggers and managing the self-talk. With booze, I think it’s fair to say that life has never been as much fun without it. Knowing that actually helps me not to drink.

Reply to javi2541997

Thanks Javi :pray:

Reply to Tom Storm

Your words bring me comfort in the midst of my truculence.

I quit drinking when I stopped caring what people thought if I didn't drink. I never liked drinking. It made me tired and gave me a headache. My addiction was to some sort of thought that conformance to social norms was demanded for proper behavior. That was a catalyst for me to raise my introvert flag a bit higher. I'm a sociable guy, pretty entertaining and off the wall if I say so myself, but the day I decided I was not required to perform was liberating. It's made me all the more quirky I suppose.

And I realize what I have identified as "addiction" isn't what the others here are talking about at all. It's not a physical need, but I thought I'd throw in what I had to say because you guys were talking about addiction and I had nothing to directly add and that made me sad. I guess I do need to fit in in some ways after all.

My favorite word in there was "perform." That was a good way to say it.

I think.

Reply to Hanover

I can't tell if you feel left out or you're just flexing your superiority.

Quoting Jamal

I can't tell if you feel left out or you're just flexing your superiority.

Both.

Reply to Hanover

Thought so. :cool:

Quoting Jamal

... went to the shop to get my own cigarettes when he told me to stop smoking all his cigarettes, then kept on smoking the next day, then switched to vaping and tried to hide the fact from my wife until I finally went home and quit the nicotine entirely once again. Right now, it's been a week

It's very hard to stop smoking and very easy to relapse when your wife wants you to quit (the voice of experience). It is way, way, easier if you yourself really want to quit, because it is no hardship not to do what one doesn't want to do.

Quoting Jamal

the intense withdrawal symptoms

...are intense because one is doing something one does not want to do, so as to avoid conflict in one's relationship; thereby one internalises the conflict and internalised conflict remains hidden in the relationship but cannot be resolved because it is hidden.

Caught between wife and brother, you have no mind of your own, and you need a mind of your own to make a decision that will resolve the conflict completely. Having a mind of one's own means seeing the whole situation and conflict, and the wavering back and forth. Seeing it whole, you will know what to do without conflict and just do it - or not do it.

If you quit smoking now, your lungs will pretty much go back to normal. If you don't, you'll have accelerated lung dysfunction and it's a major drag. Think of quitting as an act of love for the person you will be in the future.

And the highest temperature ever recorded on earth was 134 degrees in Death Valley in 1913.

Quoting frank

And the highest temperature ever recorded on earth was 134 degrees in Death Valley in 1913.

Ha!

I recorded 425 °F in my oven yesterday.

Quoting frank

it's a major drag

Ohhh, even the words feel so nice.

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover
Oh. I guess that doesn't sound right.

Does anyone here make apps?

Quoting frank

Does anyone here make apps?

Who wants to know. The main focus right now is Jamal's recovery from his horrendous and life-altering addictions. We all need to be here for him right now. Not talking about transient nonsense like apps. If, God forbid, something were to ever happen to him, I'd have to get a real job. Which actually is programming and such. No thanks.

I could make an app if I wanted to. Shoot, these apps basically make themselves what with the interface designers and programming. Similar to Wix.com but for apps.

The whole import com.android.packageXYZ whatever is tiresome. Modern caveman logic, really.

A real man uses PHP and creates a website from the ground up with such. And has the skill to make it mobile friendly all the same. Not like these young whippersnappers.

Reply to frank

I'll make an "app" for you now.

$input = $_POST['theInput'];



$correctAnswer = '50';



if ( isset( $_POST['theInput'] ) && $input != $correctAnswer )

{

echo 'Close, but no!';

}

else if ( isset( $_POST['theInput'] ) )

{

echo 'Good for you.';

}



echo '
Guess a number from 1 - 100
';

Takes 2 seconds.

Hi team - I'll be around a little bit now.
Crisis averted, such as it was - for clarity, this 'crisis' was not debilitating in any clinical sense. It was a 'crisis' around a couple of events in my life and for very personal reasons. Those reasons have been addressed.
I will be trying, for the moment, not to get too deep into discussions to avoid the mental over-hang effect of unanswered replies. I hope that this will soon change, though as it was one of the first things I wanted to get back to after being able to finally set down some of the other issues I'd be dealing with.

Thanks for your support, and hope to joust with you soon.

Reply to AmadeusD
That's very good to hear AmadeusD,

But what is this "over-hang effect"?

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover When I have thousands of words waiting to be written in response to people who have given their valuable time, intellect and effort to either help me work through issues, use me to help themselves, or just have a bash at some concepts, it wears on me when I do not respond. I feel I have unfinished business, akin to not fulfilling a promise. There is something hanging over me, effectively, that I need to deal with.

Reply to AmadeusD
Sounds like a TPF hangover. Maybe you are overindulging, inviting too many comments, then feeling the responsibility to reply.

Quoting frank

If you quit smoking now, your lungs will pretty much go back to normal. If you don't, you'll have accelerated lung dysfunction and it's a major drag.

There are a good number of lab tests that that are abnormal in smokers, so if one has these results but doesn't smoke, one should begin to smoke, so that the results will be normal for now a smoker.

I think.

Quoting frank

If you quit smoking now, your lungs will pretty much go back to normal.

Xsmoker normal.

Quoting Jamal

I have quit nicotine (vaping, mostly) three times over the past two years

That you have quit so often suggests it's easy to quit.

My only addiction, albeit it subdued and minimally socially limiting, is a propensity toward the beige, but it is sufficiently controlling that I can certainly identify with your struggles with the smoke and drink and therefore feel a string sense of brotherhood when you open up in that regard.

Quoting Hanover

There are a good number of lab tests that that are abnormal in smokers, so if one has these results but doesn't smoke, one should begin to smoke, so that the results will be normal for now a smoker.

Carbon monoxide levels are higher, which you can duplicate by stuffing a rag in your tail pipe. Or tale pipe.

Reply to Jamal There are nothing but up-sides to quitting smoking / vaping / chewing. For example, 48 hours after quitting cigarettes, the chances of surviving a heart attack are much better (because there is less CO2 in the bloodstream). Vaping presents a different set of health hazards. My knowledge about the harm of tobacco is focused on smoking and chewing actual tobacco. Vaping was invented long after I was no longer working in tobacco cessation. In general, nicotine is not a good thing to consume.

Ten years without smoking will pretty much erase the risks of smoking. Of course, for heavy long-time smokers, some damage (like lung tissue damage) doesn't go away.

Quitting is a process, not an event. Yes, one day you smoked your last cigarette (or vaped), but the urgent need to get a dose of nicotine fades slowly and sometimes it overcomes our healthful wishes. No matter, quit again.

I smoked around 20 years and quit 30 years ago. Would I like a cigarette? Smoking still holds some attraction. I found it mentally stimulating, like caffeine. I liked the 'image' of smoking. A few years ago I smoked a few cigarettes and found them to be unpleasant.

So vaping has not been properly investigated yet. The risks of smoking cannabis are likely to resemble the risks of smoking tobacco, plus whatever adverse effects cannibis has, however consumed. I was disappointed to find now-legalized cannibis--smoked, sipped, or eaten--to be moderately unpleasant. 40 years ago I sort of liked it on occasion.

I am grateful that alcohol is still safe and effective when used as directed. But I don't do that much anymore either. Age.

So press on with diligence!

addendum: cigarettes are now $10+ a pack in Minnesota -- taxed heavily to discourage smoking. Glad they weren't that expensive when I was smoking!

I quit smoking in March 2020. It is one of ht ebest choices I've made, though I really miss smoking.

You think Cigs are expensive in minnesota? The equivalent in NZ for a 20-pack = $20.48

Quoting BC

cigarettes are now $10+ a pack in Minnesota -- taxed heavily to discourage smoking. Glad they weren't that expensive when I was smoking!

Quoting AmadeusD

The equivalent in NZ for a 20-pack = $20.48

A 10-pack of cigarettes box in Spain = €60. (Marlboro). Each pack is €6.

I think my mom smokes the most expensive.

Reply to AmadeusD Smokes here cost $55 for a pack of 30, which is about USD $36. This high price has fueled a massive criminal market for black market tobacco, leading to what are now called tobacco wars. Illegal tobacco sells for roughly one-fifth of the legal price.

Quoting javi2541997

A 10-pack of cigarettes = €60. (Marlboro).

What is a 10 - pack? Do you mean 10 packets of 30?

Quoting Tom Storm

What is a 10 - pack? Do you mean 10 packets of 30?

I mean 10 packets of 20.

Reply to AmadeusD Ouch! Well, does it discourage people from smoking, or do they just cut back on frills like food, clothing, and shelter?

Average numbers of smokers in New Zealand are quite low.

"In New Zealand, the daily smoking rate was 6.9% in 2023/24, a slight plateau from 6.8% in 2022/23, after a continuous decline since 2011/12 when it was 16.4%. Smoking rates are significantly higher among M?ori individuals, with a rate of around 14.7% in 2023/24, compared to the general population.

a 6.9% rate is excellent, especially considering that you do not have an indoor smoking ban. The US states that ban indoor smoking generally have slightly lower rates of smoking. The indoor smoking ban helped me quit. Not being able to smoke in a bar ruined the experience. On the plus side, non-smoking bar tenders and crew are getting second-hand smoke exposure related cancer less often.

In the US, the worst smoking states are West Virginia and Kentucky with rates around 23.3%. Minnesota has a rate of about 12%, and it probably won't go much lower.

Quoting javi2541997

I mean 10 packets of 20.

That's incredibly cheap we would pay around $400 for that amount. €264.

Reply to Tom Storm Reply to javi2541997 Reply to AmadeusD It's just damn hard to get some people to change their behavior. We know from STD stats that despite all the effort that has gone into it, a lot of people are not practicing risk-reduction in sex (like using condoms). Unfortunately, there is no HIV PrEP pill for gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, herpes, et al.

Quoting Tom Storm

That's incredibly cheap we would pay around $400 for that amount.

Well, what vices ARE affordable, then?

Quoting Tom Storm

That's incredibly cheap we would pay around $400 for that amount. €264.

I knew tobacco was more expensive in English-speaking countries, but I never expected it to be that much.

Reply to BC Indeed. What’s interesting is the common myth that you need to join a program to quit drinking. The stats suggest that 70–75% of people quit without any formal program or support. So, what distinguishes those who continue from those who stop? I ask this as someone who has worked in addictions for many years.

Quoting BC

Well, what vices ARE affordable, then?

In Australia? Racism and mysoginy.

Quoting javi2541997

I knew tobacco was more expensive in English-speaking countries,

Is that accurate? I think they are cheap in America. In the UK they are $10 a pack cheaper than here.

Quoting BC

Well, what vices ARE affordable, then?

A good summer vacation of 15 days on Mallorca's coast. :razz:

Every vice here is cheaper than in your countries. But our salaries are lower too. The hard problem of combining salaries and leisure, as always.

Quoting Tom Storm

In the UK they are $10 a pack cheaper than here.

A 20-pack of cigarettes in Spain costs roughly €4-6, whereas in the UK, a similar pack can cost over £10. So it’s almost twice as much as here.

Reply to javi2541997 American price €8. But it varies from state to state.

Reply to javi2541997 The cost of grinding up tobacco, putting it in a paper sleeve, adding a filter, and packing 20 of them into a little box is pretty small--less than 30 cents, US. The cost you are paying includes advertising costs, shipping, and normal retail mark-up. But most important are national, state, and local taxes.

Reply to Tom Storm I just read that cigarettes are $15 in Minneapolis (MN), which recently added an extra tax.

Quoting Tom Storm

So, what distinguishes those who continue from those who stop?

I don't know.

Most people (who quit smoking) do so on their own, as you said. The one's who can't quit on their own end up in programs, of some sort (like the one I worked in) and such programs have a fairly low rate of success.

Well, the biological strength of addiction seems to be one big thing that applies to people who can't quit. The kind of intervention that it takes to get tough cases to quit drinking and smoking are difficult to arrange. The psycho-social meaning people derive from drinking, smoking, gambling, etc. may be much more central for those who can not quit. Or, maybe they just can't rewire their brain.

One of my brothers was a long-term alcoholic / smoker. He developed cancer of the jaw and was fairly close to death. He was offered residential CD treatment OR he could go die. That was one part. The second part was his wife, a hard-shelled Baptist woman who brooked no backsliding. The third thing were antidepressants. The cancer surgery was disfiguring but successful. His wife rode herd on him, and the antidepressants helped a great deal with his mental health. He lived another ...10 years at least, and those were much better years than those before.

Before treatment he was a miserable, hateful son-of-a-bitch. After treatment he was a very decent guy.

Reply to Tom Storm Reply to BC

Still, it’s cheaper in Spain. You can find some brands for just €4. American price is almost twice as much as here.

Here the price of tobacco is fully taxed. The state controls and manages the prices.

Reply to javi2541997 Spain is cheap, that was clear early on. But Australia has some of the most expensive cigarettes in the world. As far as I know, cigarettes cost roughly the same everywhere; it's the tax rates that make the difference.

Quoting BC

The psycho-social meaning people derive from drinking, smoking, gambling, etc. may be much more central for those who can not quit. Or, maybe they just can't rewire their brain.

Yes, I think the answer lies somewhere here. Those with intractable drinking and drug use I have known have generally also experienced a mental health issue, and often trauma and social isolation. Much of the literature tells us that it takes around nine years from starting the quitting process to successfully ending it.

Reply to wonderer1 :razz: Brilliant repartee!

"Old Father's Quote #3. You should not kill yourself in your search for the meaning of life. (2009-05-31)." p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Hanover

My only addiction, albeit it subdued and minimally socially limiting, is a propensity toward the beige, but it is sufficiently controlling that I can certainly identify with your struggles with the smoke and drink and therefore feel a string sense of brotherhood when you open up in that regard.

Finally, some advice and support that actually works for me!

Quoting BC

Well, what vices ARE affordable, then?

Well, even if I was under utilized, I did my share in having made myself a cheap vice for the ladies.

Quoting Tom Storm

Yes, I think the answer lies somewhere here. Those with intractable drinking and drug use I have known have generally also experienced a mental health issue, and often trauma and social isolation. Much of the literature tells us that it takes around nine years from starting the quitting process to successfully ending it.

A therapist once told me he hadn't met a true alcoholic that didn't suffer from some other underlying mental condition.

Quoting BC

Well, what vices ARE affordable, then?

Unfortunately this pun relies on the British spelling of vice, which is vice.

Member of the vise squad.

Quoting Jamal

Unfortunately this pun relies on the British spelling of vice, which is vice.

Odd how I had not noticed that there is a difference between vice and vise. Maybe that's why I failed to succeed in the sex/drug trade.

Quoting BC

Maybe that's why I failed to succeed in the sex/drug trade.

I failed to succeed in the sex/drug trade too, but I thought it was a matter of cowardice. :smirk:

Reply to javi2541997 tornillo vs. vicio -- not confusing. Torquere is the Latin word for twist; I wonder if that isn't the root of Spanish tornillo. But then there are tortillas, which aren't twisted as far as I know. Is there a band called "the Twisted Tortillas"? Vice, on the other hand, comes from Latin vitium and Old French vicious--taken into English with that spelling--which means 'immorality". It also means extreme nastiness, as in "vicious killer", as in Sid Vicious of the Sex Pistols who murdered his girl friend and died of a heroin overdose.

Quoting BC

I wonder if that isn't the root of Spanish tornillo.

According to the following website, the root of the word tornillo is "torno" which is a taken word from the Latin "tornus".

Información sobre tornillo.

Note: That webpage is from Chile and is quite amazing. I used it several times when researching the origins of my language's vocabulary. :smile:

"Old Father's Quote #4. Words, once spoken, are cast in stone. They last at least a lifetime, (2010-01-09) p250" How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Generally speaking, one carves in stone, and casts in metal. This is the logic of bitter experience. Volcanic plugs are cast in stone, but they tend to lack the fine detail of a bronze casting.

I got these at the market because I'd never seen them before, and I still don't know what they are. They're sweet and sour and taste like jam.



Thoughts?

Quoting Jamal

Thoughts?

I feel this sudden impulsiveness may be a manifestation of one's now-forbidden cravings resulting in emotional overeating or "emotional spending", which apparently is a thing. Of course, perhaps you do this all the time and this is par for the course. I suppose I would not know.

Looks like some sort of primitive cherry or possibly ungodly form of tomato. It must be one of the two, I'd wager.

Sounds interesting, whatever town or place you're in. The idea of food without clear and legally marked identification is simply unheard of in most places. The drawback is obvious, if something were to be wrong with the consumed item, your only option to settle your debt with the purveyor would be a blood feud. Surely his little stand and soon-to-expire comestibles would not give you or your family much solace. So, in a way, the system works. Such as it is.

Quoting Outlander

So, in a way, the system works. Such as it is.

The system of growing or picking things and taking them to the central market has worked pretty well for a couple of thousand years too.

Reply to Jamal

I had never seen them before either. At first, I thought they were Greek Kalamata olives because they have the same shape and colours.

I checked it on Google Lens, and it turned out to be a fruit that can be used to make jam.

So, start to boil water and prepare a bag of sugar, because you will spend all afternoon making jam!

Reply to javi2541997

Ok, I might make some jam.

I had a peanut butter and Kalamata jam sandwich for lunch today with a side of calamari cacciatore.

I've never seen kalamata olives coloured carmine, scarlet, and candy apple red, so it makes sense that they're not kalamata olives.

You can make a spread with olives but it's called tapenade.

Quoting Jamal

Thoughts?

Your picture has geographic metadata, fyi.

Reddit has a good crowd sourcing means of plant identification, r/whatisthisplant. Might help to see inside of fruit.

Quoting Jamal

You can make a spread with olives but it's called tapenade.

Who decides these things, where we have to call things that already have sufficient and adequately described meaning by new words. You could just call it "olive dip" and be done with the thing. I swear, it's the dictionary people. Anything to have to print a new revised edition and keep themselves employed.

Quoting Nils Loc

Your picture has geographic metadata, fyi.

Not gonna lie that's weird you found that out. Also not going to lie. I'm remotely curious and am currently going to try and find it out myself.

Kind of like a "Where's Waldo" but in a real life kind of way thus making it that much more fulfilling to complete.

Maybe delete that post and PM him instead? Ah, too late. It's likely just as I feared. The rogue government forces who have declared Jamal secret enemy #1 for proliferating knowledge to the common man, thus freeing them from their enslavement, have joined forces with the banned members of TPF and are now en route to his location with vengeance on their mind. They may not have satellite imagery or a squad of elite, highly-trained assassins but they do have something far more deadly. A drugged-out meth addict who hasn't seen sleep in 2 days that will believe anything who they'll say "Hey, that guy stole your power drill" (or some object they've never owned in their life) while pointing to him. Only God can save him now.

... come on man, you think anyone cares? Like he's a fugitive or something. :lol:

Quoting Outlander

Not gonna lie that's weird you found that out.

Undergraduate degree was tropical plant soil science. I always want to to know what mystery plants/fruit are and am upset we don't know yet.

Quoting Nils Loc

Undergraduate degree was tropical plant soil science.

That's... oddly specific. Like, is there really a market for such a thing these days in a world long mapped, charted. and explored? If I wasn't a theist already, I would likely convert. The odds are just, inhuman.

An olive spread salad is put on muffuletta sandwiches. Goes well with a bag of voodoo Zapps and zydeco.

Quoting Outlander

... come on man, you think anyone cares?

I think I care and am reminded that all my phone photos have GPS data by default. Not that I should care, since I guess it doesn't really matter, unless I privately aspire to be like... James Bond or a James Bond villain.

@Jamal

How about Cornelian cherry (Cornus mas), ????? ?????. Some photos show tapered necks and the gloss level and color matches. Matching the pit would seal the deal.

Quoting unenlightened

Volcanic plugs are cast in stone, but they tend to lack the fine detail of a bronze casting.

But isn’t that where diamonds come from?

Quoting Nils Loc

How about Cornelian cherry (Cornus mas)

I knew I was right! Yes. Even a professional agrees. But at the same, time. How lazy is that Latin naming, am I right? Apparently a random apple at the store gets a name like "malus astitica anamus respectica" like I'm casting a spell to banish an ancient demon or something just so I can buy a piece of fruit. It's like dude, it's just an apple. Anyway. Thankfully someone finally gets the plight of the average man and names something without unnecessary complication.

No wonder it's unknown.

Quoting Outlander

I knew I was right!

The cherry genus is Prunus. Cornus is a dogwood genus. Were you right?

Quoting Nils Loc

Were you right?

"Looks like some sort of primitive cherry"

It would appear so. :smirk:

But who knows, maybe I just edited it recently. You never know these days. All's fair if a little boy gets angry. Sorry, uh "love and war", or some desperate attempt of the non-intellect to reach the status of personhood some of us hold they will never obtain.

Count yourself lucky to absorb the cosmic essence and life sustaining power of a dogwood species once or twice in your life.

One other common Cornus edible is the Japanese strawberry tree. Is that a cherry also? Also a strawberry no doubt.

Quoting Nils Loc

Count yourself lucky to absorb the cosmic essence and power of a dogwood species once or twice in your life.

One other common Cornus edible is the Japanese strawberry tree. Is that a cherry also? Also a strawberry no doubt.

Point is, I took a shot in the dark based on average experience and hit the socially-acceptable ratio of "what a thing is." :smirk:

Quoting Outlander

You could just call it "olive dip"

I'm not a barbarian

Quoting Nils Loc

?????

Yes, I think that's what the babushka said they were. Good work.

Gentlemen, I give you the rarest berry of them all: The cloudberry, harvested from the heavens. I am told it tastes somewhere between a huckleberry and making love to a supermodel.

Reply to Hanover

That's a good honest northern berry.

I also saw these yesterday and thought I'd been drinking too much dogberry brandy:



Not a berry, but at least it's a squash, the pattypan squash. It seems it originates in North America. Maybe all squashes do :chin:

Quoting Outlander

primitive

Quoting Outlander

unknown

Because you don't see them in American supermarkets, I suppose. This is what Adorno means by ideology.

Quoting Hanover

Gentleman

I like how, like me, you often make the subconscious error of typing "gentleman" instead of the proper "gentlemen" when referring to multiple people. I notice people who do this either don't fit in or otherwise have been raised or live a life that suggests they do not fit in with a "group" and therefore subconsciously refer to a hypothetical group as a single person, perhaps denoting a form of superiority. As if another person is so worthless, 1,000 or 10,000 or even a million still barely qualifies as a "man." This is a good flock. But whatever may become of it? :confused:

Reply to Outlander I edited my post, mooting your objection.

Quoting Jamal

Because you don't see them in American supermarkets, I suppose. This is what Adorno means by ideology.

Just to add some legitimacy, can you give a cite to an American who might have said something close to this?

Reply to Hanover

Huh? I quoted Outlander.

Quoting Jamal

Huh? I quoted Outlander

I meant what Adorno said.

Quoting Jamal

Huh? I quoted Outlander.

Are you spying on me IP. Blimey! I shall report such an outrage to me constable. Hopefully it reaches a higher lord or perhaps me parliament. I've never felt so violated. Might as well give me a skirt and toss me on Broadway. For shame.

Reply to Outlander

That's the spirit :cool:

Reply to Hanover

I think it was in his 1950s essay on the American attitude to foreign berries, but I'm not sure.

Reply to javi2541997 So, tornus is from Latin and Greek "turning lathe". A tool for sure, but not a vise or a vice. Thanks for the information. Facts duly added to the collection.

The real world is beyond all ideas, quite literally, the world precedes and grounds all ideas in perspective thereto.

Went to France for the first time, including Paris. Wonderful city, really loved it. Visited Emil Cioran's grave in Montparnasse Cemetery on our first day, which was a gorgeous cemetery. Placed a rock on his tomb, as is the Jewish custom. There were a handful of rocks on it already, along with a little slot encouraging people to place their letters to him. I bought copies of A Short History of Decay and The Trouble With Being Born in French. @180 Proof

Reply to BC :up: :smile:

I love searching the etymology of the words on the Internet. I spend hours.

I discovered the origin of a very interesting word the other day: Dársena, which is a word taken from Arabic (dár a??án‘a) and means "dock".

We use the word Dársena when referring to docks and the place where buses are parked.

I get google earth photos as google backgrounds, and today's background was the gardens at Versailles. It's a happy garden.

Quoting javi2541997

I love searching the etymology of the words on the Internet. I spend hours.

Speaking of etymology, which sounds like entomology, which doesn't include spiders, but which would fall under arachnology, but speaking of which:


This spider web is like 40 feet long, leaving me in awe of how such a thing could come to be. My research shows the spider sits on a high branch and shoots its web into the wind and with that and electromagnetic static electricity magic it travels long distances. The spider then anchors it after it catches hold on the other end and walks out on it and puts other layers of web on it.

There is a God. You guys no nothing.

Quoting Maw

Went to France for the first time, including Paris. Wonderful city, really loved it. Visited Emil Cioran's grave in Montparnasse Cemetery on our first day, which was a gorgeous cemetery. Placed a rock on his tomb, as is the Jewish custom. There were a handful of rocks on it already, along with a little slot encouraging people to place their letters to him. I bought copies of A Short History of Decay and The Trouble With Being Born in French. @180 Proof

:cool: AF

[quote=A Short History of Decay (1949)][i]The notion of nothingness is not characteristic of laboring humanity: those who toil have neither time nor inclination to weigh their dust; they resign themselves to the difficulties or the doltishness of fate; they hope: hope is a slave's virtue.

I feel safer with a Pyrrho than with a St. Paul, for a jesting wisdom is gentler than an unbridled sanctity.

Try to be free: you will die of hunger.[/i][/quote]
[quote=The Trouble With Being Born (1973)]My faculty for disappointment surpasses understanding. It is what lets me comprehend Buddha, but also what keeps me from following him.[/quote]

Quoting Hanover

The spider then anchors it after it catches hold on the other end and walks out on it and puts other layers of web on it.

To him,
Life is a great big bang-up
Wherever there's a hang-up
,,,

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover One Christmas I bought my son Spiderman hands that sprayed silly string. Those were cooler than the Hulk hands that were huge green hands that roared when he punched his brother with them.

Quoting Hanover

This spider web is like 40 feet long

Another good reason for living as far north as possible.

Does the owl repel spiders?

Quoting BC

Does the owl repel spiders?

The owls repel the hawks and save the chickens that eat the bugs that the spider had wanted to wriggle and wriggle and wriggle inside her. I don't why she swallowed the fly, perhaps she'll die.

Quoting Hanover

This spider web is like 40 feet long

:fear:

I have arachnophobia. My reactions to spiders may be exaggerated, but I feel uneasy when I see one nearby.

"Old Father's Quote #5. There are so many sounds in silence, and so many things in nothing. (2010-01-09)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Jamal

But then, each time, a few months later I met my brother and started drinking, and before long began smoking his cigarettes, and then went to the shop to get my own cigarettes when he told me to stop smoking all his cigarettes, then kept on smoking the next day, then switched to vaping and tried to hide the fact from my wife until I finally went home and quit the nicotine entirely once again. Right now, it's been a week

This mirrors my own habits of having quit smoking.

At this point I think I'm out of that habit, though part of the reason why is I know it can always come back.

I had "quit" some odd number of times prior to this time. Even sometimes at years at a time -- and then, three years later, a friend offers your favorite cigarette while you're drinking together, and then in the mourning all the old habits come back again.

Part of the reason I don't smoke now is cuz I went through that back-and-forth of withdrawal, "defeating myself" (after a month of not smoking), finding a friend after I stop thinking about it and they want to smoke (even if they don't tempt me) and me thinking "awh yeah -- that sounds like a great time tonight"

It's only because I've been through that cycle so many times now that I'm easily able to say "No thanks" -- not a strength on my part as much as a persistence and luck.

Reply to Moliere

Yeah I must be reaching that point soon!

[i]"Old man writes a book;
Boss quits, lawyers talk spiders.
What madhouse is this?"[/i]

- Musings of the Unamused, pt. 1

javi2541997 edition, unabridged:

[i]"Old man writes a book;
Boss quits, lawyers talk spiders.
A madhouse this is."[/i]

:roll:

Quoting Hanover

the spider had wanted to wriggle and wriggle and wriggle inside her.

Are you talking about that old lady who happened to be a supermodel?

Reply to Outlander :up: :smile:

Good. Try to rewrite it without question marks or using questions. I think you will get a better version of your haiku.

Quoting javi2541997

I love searching the etymology of the words on the Internet. I spend hours.

Irony—the etymology of “etymology”

The word "etymology" comes from the Greek word etymologia (??????????), which is a compound of etymon ("true sense" or "true meaning") and logia ("the study of"). Therefore, etymology literally means "the study of the true sense of a word".

Quoting T Clark

Irony—the etymology of “etymology”

The etymology of "etymology" would be meta, not ironic, but it would be ironic to provide an incorrect meaning in a discussion related to understanding meaning.

I think.

The funniest Wikipedia entry I’ve ever come across. Actually the only funny Wikipedia entry I’ve ever come across.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-referential_humor

Quoting Hanover

The etymology of "etymology" would be meta, not ironic, but it would be ironic to provide an incorrect meaning in a discussion related to understanding meaning.

I specifically put that in to give opportunities for self important pedants to spout off. Congratulations.

On the other hand, I think I can make a case that it is irony. The use of the word “etymology” both with and without quotes give us that little frisson of contradiction that makes irony so enjoyable.

More irony— the etymology of “frisson”

The word "frisson" comes from the Old French fricons, meaning "trembling," and ultimately traces to the Latin verb frig?re, meaning "to be cold".

Check and mate.

Reply to Hanover
Or as you lawyers like to say—No further questions. I rest my case.

Reply to T Clark

The word "frisson" comes from the Old French fricons, meaning "trembling,"

Yeah, well, the Hebrew word for trembling is haredi, and so to be a Haredi Jew means to be ultra-orthodox, the word coming from a passage in Isiah.

Quoting T Clark

Check and mate.

This comes from Persian, meaning Shah (the king) mat (is helpless).

Note the grammar of "shah mat." There is no verb, meaning it literally means king helpless This is a copula ellipsis.

I know what you're thinking, that the Hebrew word for dead (met) is of the same etymological origin as the Persian word for helpless (mat), but those languages are not of the same family and the etymologies are different. I get why you thought that though. Easy mistake to make.

I jusr so out etymologied you it's sickening.

Quoting Hanover

I jusr so out etymologied you it's sickening.

The contest wasn’t for etymology—it was for somewhat, sort of, possibly, maybe, ironic etymology.

Quoting T Clark

Irony—the etymology of “etymology”

It is pretty ironic, indeed. I searched for the etymology of hundreds of words but never of "etymology" itself.

Quoting Hanover

This is a copula ellipsis.

For most discussions, the ideal length is about 130 comments. That gives you enough room to work through the issues. Any more and you start just rehashing over and over.

In the berry spirit, I purchased yogurt today with blueberry, bilberry, strawberry, lingonberry and the elusive cloudberry. I then bought lingonberry jam, that represents itself as a delicacy from Sweden.

My berry consumption will likely rival the Bohemian Waxwing, a bird I learned has the most voracious berry appetite, feasting mainly on the rowan berry, at up to 1,000 in a few hours.

I will report back on which berry my favorite, likely entertaining you with the comment that they are all berry good.

A peach isn't a berry. It's a drupe.

Quoting Hanover

blueberry, bilberry, strawberry, lingonberry and the elusive cloudberry.

Little known fact— all these are exactly the same. It is only the berry conglomerates and the Willy Wonka Candy Company that brainwash you to think they’re different.

Quoting Hanover

berry good

:roll:

That said, I'm reminded how long it's been since I had yogurt. Oh, it does sound nice. Soothing and refreshing. Light on the stomach, in case one happens to not be feeling particularly well. Likely due to a hangover, which I'm sure you live a respectable enough life to ensure never occurs. My favorite, and I'm sure you'll agree, is to put a cup in the freezer just long enough for it to begin to crystalize, but not actually solidify completely. It's a very delicate process and skill that takes practice, but offers a massive reward for those who follow through with due diligence. Try it sometime. :sparkle:

Quoting Hanover

A peach isn't a berry. It's a drupe.

A peach is a stone fruit. :ok:

Quoting Hanover

In the berry spirit, I purchased yogurt today with blueberry, bilberry, strawberry, lingonberry and the elusive cloudberry. I then bought lingonberry jam, that represents itself as a delicacy from Sweden.

I too purchased a berry product yesterday:



Cranberry sauce. I use cranberry sauce and lingonberry jam interchangeably, as a condiment for roast meat.

So I made my dogberry jam. I’m very pleased with the result, which is a surprisingly homogeneous deep red jelly-like substance, sweet enough but also pleasingly sour.

I could not be bothered with all the techniques for making the jam last for a long time, so I’ll just keep it in the fridge and eat it as quickly as possible.

Quoting Jamal

and eat it as quickly as possible.

Eating it with pâté might be a good choice. :yum:

Reply to javi2541997

:chin:

I'll be eating it with toast and butter, using this bread:

Reply to Jamal

I suggest it be spread lovingly upon your bride's body until a glistening glow of red, reminiscent of her cyclical discharge, fully speaking of life eternal, and then it be permitted to crust like a carnival apple dipped in joy, and then it be crunched off her, vigorously not gently, until the two of you collapse in diabetic ecstasy.

I mean this is just a suggestion. You kids do as you wish.

Quoting Jamal

I'll be eating it with toast and butter, using this bread:

Excellent! :up:

Reply to Hanover

I'm more than willing but the missus has reservations.

Just a reminder: there is no such thing as an "external world." Our entire body, including our thoughts, is/are merely a part of THE WORLD. Those who believe in such commit to the same fallacy by way of reification as Plato and Descartes.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Just a reminder: there is no such thing as an "external world." Our entire body, including our thoughts, is/are merely a part of THE WORLD. Those who believe in such commit to the same fallacy by way of reification as Plato and Descartes.

If belief in internal and external worlds is not justifiable, then neither is belief in any world at all.

Quoting T Clark

If belief in internal and external worlds is not justifiable, then neither is belief in any world at all.

I take his statement as believing people who believe in a distinction are simply "misinterpreting" the use of such.

Some people say the true nature of reality and the world is simply unknowable, we simply gaze at it in the dark, from the outside looking in, through a tiny pinhole that is our senses and mental processes and mechanization, that while can determine many things about it, will ultimately be restricted by human limitation. Or something. I'm sure someone more sophistic can throw out a few terms and clever phrasings that will shed more light on the matter.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Just a reminder: there is no such thing as an "external world." Our entire body, including our thoughts, is/are merely a part of THE WORLD. Those who believe in such commit to the same fallacy by way of reification as Plato and Descartes.

This would just mean that the inner and outer world are of the same substance, not that the distiction meaningless.

I really just wanted to create a sentence with a missing "is."

Quoting Hanover

I really just wanted to create a sentence with a missing "is."

That all?

Quoting Outlander

I take his statement as believing people who believe in a distinction are simply "misinterpreting" the use of such.

As I understand it, believing there are both internal and external worlds and believing there is a world at all are both metaphysical positions—absolute presuppositions. Both have what Collingwood called logical efficacy—they are useful.

Quoting T Clark

As I understand it, believing there are both internal and external worlds and believing there is a world at all are both metaphysical positions—absolute presuppositions. Both have what Collingwood called logical efficacy—they are useful.

The advantage you have is that no one has actually read Collingwood so you can cite to him as an authority for anything.

But, back to berries. I was trying to think of the most disgusting berry out there, and I reminded myself of the dingleberry, that pesky misstep that reveals itself with its unmistakable aroma that follows just behind you whereever you walk. It's not good for jam, jelly, or preseves of any sort. No matter how much sugar you add, the flavor is never satisfying.

Reply to T Clark The etymology of etymology is late Middle English: from Old French ethimologie, via Latin from Greek etumologia, from etumologos ‘student of etymology’, from etumon, neuter singular of etumos ‘true’.

I'm certain that you looked it up, but perhaps not everyone did. Thanks. It had not previously occurred to me to look up the etymology of etymology. Now I have. Life goes on.

Chewing gum increases blood flow to your brain. :meh:

Quoting frank

Chewing gum increases blood flow to your brain

I thought that was Viagra.

Quoting Hanover

The advantage you have is that no one has actually read Collingwood so you can cite to him as an authority for anything.

This is absolutely true. Someday I’ll tell you what he thought of you. Also, his thoughts about copulate lips.

Quoting frank

Chewing gum increases blood flow to your brain. :meh:

Do you mean 'chewing gum' as a singular noun or 'chewing gum' as a verb suffixed by a noun? Yes, it truly makes all the difference.

Quoting Hanover

I thought that was Viagra.

other brain

Quoting Outlander

Do you mean 'chewing gum' as a singular noun or 'chewing gum' as a verb suffixed by a noun? Yes, it truly makes all the difference.

yes

Quoting frank

Chewing gum increases blood flow to your brain.

Nice! But what type of chewing gum? Is it watermelon or fresh pineapple?

Reply to Hanover I just find it such an odd way to classify. To me it's like an admission that one experiences oneself as fundamentally separate from the world. That one does not feel at home in becoming, but as a spectator looking out. And that one seeks a fortress of "interior" safety in an inner realm against the "external" flux. And honestly, I see it as mostly a negative character trait.

Reply to T Clark Quoting T Clark

If belief in internal and external worlds is not justifiable, then neither is belief in any world at all.

WORLD is not a justified belief lol. It is experience regardless of belief. Collapsing the dualism simply brings people back to the reality of becoming.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

WORLD is not a justified belief lol. It is experience regardless of belief.

I’ll revise my response

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Just a reminder: there is no such thing as an "external world." Our entire body, including our thoughts, is/are merely a part of THE WORLD. Those who believe in such commit to the same fallacy by way of reification as Plato and Descartes.

If there is no such thing as an external world, then there is no such thing as THE WORLD.

Reply to T Clark Doubt you could even construct a valid and sound reasoning for that claim. But if you wish to live that way, go for it. Philosophy is a diagnosis of cultures, morals, and instincts, exposing hidden drives behind “truths.”

To me it’s an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in relation to Self Control... as if the thinker fears every stray thought, impulse, or sensation must be domesticated. They want to be a “godlike master” of their inner world — a sovereign who legislates over every belief. But it’s a fragile sovereignty: the more they try to control, the more anxious they become about leaks, errors, and contamination.

"Old Father's Quote #6. The facts are the facts, and the truth is the truth. The fact is, we do not know the truth. (2010-02-25)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

My olives continue to grow! I am thrilled. :starstruck:

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

To me it's like an admission that one experiences oneself as fundamentally separate from the world.

The distinction is between an experience an experiencer. There's no requirement they be in different worlds, but they are obvious different.

Quoting javi2541997

My olives continue to grow! I am thrilled.

Tell me how you prepare an olive before eating. I think I heard you had to soak them or something. Can you press them for oil, or is that something that requires special tools?

Reply to Hanover

The process is similar to soaking. I put them in a big Tupperware with a broth made of different seasonings, but thyme is the most important of all. I close the Tupperware under pressure and let pass a few days, until the broth turns black and the olives very green and a little soft.

No, I can't press them for oil. It requires both special tools and a big amount of olives. I only have one olive tree.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

Old Father's Quote #6. The facts are the facts, and the truth is the truth. The fact is, we do not know the truth.

I like this one. Seems simple enough to be accurate. So, one can know facts. But we cannot the truth. We might know true facts, similar to the way a broken clock is right twice a day, but this is luck or happenstance.

Would you agree with that expanded dialog/possible skepticism or is that not right? If that is not right, why?

John Searle died. A lot could be said about him.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Doubt you could even construct a valid and sound reasoning for that claim

I’m pretty sure I could, but it’s unlikely you would buy into it.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Philosophy is a diagnosis of cultures, morals, and instincts, exposing hidden drives behind “truths.”

That’s not how I understand or experience philosophy.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

To me it’s an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in relation to Self Control... as if the thinker fears every stray thought, impulse, or sensation must be domesticated. They want to be a “godlike master” of their inner world — a sovereign who legislates over every belief. But it’s a fragile sovereignty: the more they try to control, the more anxious they become about leaks, errors, and contamination.

For me, it’s not about self-control, it’s about self-awareness.

Quoting Hanover

John Searle died. A lot could be said about him.

What I know of his philosophical work doesn't excite me much (though I like some of it) but I loved his appearances on Bryan Magee's BBC philosophy TV shows in the 80s (available on YouTube), and the recordings of his lectures.

As for his bad behaviour, I don't know the truth, but one side was represented a few days ago in a post on Colin McGinn's blog, which quotes a sad and angry defence of Searle from his secretary Jennifer Hudin.

https://www.colinmcginn.net/john-searle/

Quoting Outlander

Would you agree with that expanded dialog/possible skepticism or is that not right? If that is not right, why?

I must admit, this conundrum has bugged me quite some time. Then I found Gotfried Wilhelm Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason. Which reads something like: A principle of sufficient reason obtain in virtue of which we consider that no fact could be true or actual, and no proposition true, without there being a sufficient reason for its being so and not otherwise, although most often these reasons cannot be known by us.

From which I gleaned the question that I deemed profound: By who or how can a decision be made that a reason is sufficient for a fact to be, in fact, [i]true[/I]? And this question, in my humble opinion, encompass the fundamental problem of philosophy. Who claims authority to make such a decision? philosophers? scientists? religious leaders? politicians? All of the above? None of the above?

The obvious answer to this question that I came up with is, nobody can claim this authority - which is not an acceptable answer - especially for an engineer. The solution that I proposed is a pole, a fundamental starting point on a geodesic of knowledge that we all could agree upon.

"This geodesic pole that I am proposing is the basic seminal, fundamental, primordial truth[/I] of the [i]existence of physical things - the Pole of Existence. If we cannot agree on this, that physical things[/I] exist in [i]fact[/I]; our only option would be somewhere between the philosophical areas on this geodesic surface called [i]nihilism and fatalism. And, for sure, solutions to our problems cannot and will not be found in these areas.

So, let us agree on the existence of physical things, this Pole of Existence; and from this point see what we can understand, what knowledge we can gain ... what problems we may solve." p9 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Jamal

As for his bad behaviour, I don't know the truth

I do. The layperson is a miserable thing that secretly wants nothing but death, doesn't mater who's, yet is too afraid to pull the trigger. So they go through life, spreading nothing but chaos and hardship unto those who actually know how to handle life's ups and downs.

People lie and demean other people for the sheer fun of it. It's a game to these "people." So. Multiply that with being a celebrity, having a lot of money and fame. You won't be able to walk down the street without being accused of being a pedophile or have some chick say "oh he raped me" so they can sue for millions. You don't know what's it's like to have millions. Do you? I know people who do. Quite well. It's simply far too tempting for the layperson not to be a complete POS when there's money to be "made" or stolen. The law knows it. Ask Hanover.

The same thing happens with every celebrity. People want to become famous so they like partying with famous people but they realize, that party was just a party, and they often abandon the true people in their lives who genuinely cared about them to chase fame. These people they abandoned are gone forever, they'll never look at them in the same light ever again, and it destroys people who realize they threw away what was real and true for an illusion or mirage. And it eats at them. Constantly. Day in and day out every waking moment like a brigand of half-starved rats unleashed on a fresh cut sirloin until there's nothing left of the person but a hollow shell of bitterness and rage. That's not the celebrities fault, they just wanted a good time. Sorry, false accusations of this nature do strike a nerve in me. For what should be clear and obvious reason.

Sorry but, last point, remember people literally killed Socrates because he made them look bad. Rather, he proved their life was a waste and it was too much for one with a wasted life to bear. Just remember that. And there wasn't even anything to gain in that case! Not really. Smart people are not liked. People like "yes men." They like living and dying, from cradle to grave mired in ignorance and delusion. So. Why not let them. No good deed goes unpunished. Join the elite, Jamal. What other choice does a mind like yours in this world have, huh? :grin:

@Pieter R van Wyk

Thank you for the response. Again, I ordered your book! It shall be here tomorrow. :party:

Quoting Jamal

As for his bad behaviour, I don't know the truth, but one side was represented a few days ago in a post on Colin McGinn's blog, which quotes a sad and angry defence of Searle from his secretary Jennifer Hudin.

This line was interesting: "The last two years of his life were hellish. HIs daughter–in-law, Andrea (Tom’s wife) took him to Tampa in 2024 and put him in a nursing home from which he never returned. She emptied his house in Berkeley and put it on the rental market. And no one was allowed to contact John, even to send him a birthday card on his birthday."

The only Tom mentioned in the article is Tom Nagel, and this would mean that Tom Nagel is John Searle's son (because Andrea is John's daughter in law), which is not the case. But maybe I didn't think this through right.

Also, I didn't follow why John was placed into solitary confinement and not permitted any visitors. That seems an unusual treatment protocol. I couldn't follow why Andrea was such an arch-villian, emptying a dying man's house and renting it out, but it did whet my appetite for what might follow. I think a good twist to the story would be for Andrea to write a really stupid book and say it's from John, just to better tarnish his image, taking what little he had left after the emptied house and the law proscribing the sending of cards to him on his birthday.

Quoting Hanover

This line was interesting: "The last two years of his life were hellish. HIs daughter–in-law, Andrea (Tom’s wife) took him to Tampa in 2024 and put him in a nursing home from which he never returned. She emptied his house in Berkeley and put it on the rental market. And no one was allowed to contact John, even to send him a birthday card on his birthday."

I find it difficult to believe a well-traveled man of his intelligence and understanding of human nature and essence didn't foresee this happening long ago. Sure, people can be deceptive. Perhaps his genius was in all other areas but human behavior or demeanor.

Drugging elderly people is more common than you might think. You've never heard or dealt with a case of such claims or reality?

Quoting Hanover

I couldn't follow why Andrea was such an arch-villian

"Donated his entire estate and fortune to the State University" or otherwise had money that he ensured was untouchable to those he sought unfit.

I don't want to be accused of things, so I'll leave the gender-less generic phenomenon of "father issues" on the table, remind others that there is a female version of being an "incel" which has nothing to do with sexual relations but rather dealing or expressing real human emotion and be done with the bloody topic.

I'll also point I don't particularly admire Jamal's simplistic characterization of "bereavement-laden passion" as "sad and angry", like a 5 year old might describe their first experience of seeing a person react to a death.

Reply to Outlander :pray:

Quoting javi2541997

Nice! But what type of chewing gum? Is it watermelon or fresh pineapple?

I think in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory they had gum that tastes like a whole meal.

Reply to Hanover Thanks for the notification. I hadn't seen this.

A shame the focus is on his last few years rather than on his contributions to philosophy of language, intentionality and cognitive science.

Quoting javi2541997

Your olive tree looks amazing!

Quoting L'éléphant

Your olive tree looks amazing!

Thanks mate! :smile:

"Old Father's Quote #7. It is not necessary to prove the Laws of Nature - they prove themselves. We just need to understand them. (2011-01-25) p250 How I Understand Things. The logic of Existence

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk

Reply to Jamal :nerd:

Quoting Outlander

Drugging elderly people is more common than you might think.

How I might think is less common than how you might think. I think. Quoting Outlander

I don't want to be accused of things, so I'll leave the gender-less generic phenomenon of "father issues" on the table, remind others that there is a female version of being an "incel" which has nothing to do with sexual relations but rather dealing or expressing real human emotion and be done with the bloody topic.

I don't follow this statement, except to think you must be trying to say something inappropriate because you started it off with "I don't want to be accused of things." And why did you start the bloody topic of incels we weren't having just to say you wanted to be bloody done with it?

Quoting Banno

A shame the focus is on his last few years rather than on his contributions to philosophy of language, intentionality and cognitive science.

Reminds me of a joke about a guy who built an entire village single handedly, but he'll only be remembered as Bob the goat fucker due to one isolated indescretion.

Quoting Hanover

Reminds me of a joke about a guy who built an entire village single handedly, but he'll only be remembered as Bob the goat fucker due to one isolated indescretion.

That sounds like a good joke, why not tell it?

Quoting unenlightened

That sounds like a good joke, why not tell it?

The best jokes are told after the punchline has already been told, so here goes (from https://folklore.usc.edu/irish-pub-joke/):
:

An American walks into a bar in somewhere in Ireland and sits next to a really old guy drinking a beer. And the old guy’s like, “Did you see that wall on your way into town?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I built that wall with my own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Mason? Noooo.” Then he’s like, “Did you see those cabinets on your way into the bar?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I build those cabinets with me own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Carpenter? Noooo.” Then he says, “Did you see the iron gates on the way into town?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I built those gates with me own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Smith? Noooo. But you fuck one goat…”

Quoting Hanover

The best jokes are told after the punchline has already been told, so here goes (from https://folklore.usc.edu/irish-pub-joke/):

Yeah, an Irishman with 3 trades - that's really funny - so goes against the stereotype!

Quoting unenlightened

Yeah, an Irishman with 3 trades - that's really funny - so goes against the stereotype!

Totally missed that. I thought the joke was because everyone knows the Irish prefer sheep.

I made a fruitcake with my mother today. We don't really like cakes with a lot of cream and big proportions. The point was to make the fruits protagonists of the dessert. It wasn't an easy task because the flavour of some fruits can be tricky for our taste buds. For example: We put apples and grapes. Both are delicious and excellent ingredients for every cake, but the first is tart and the second is sweet.

There is also something about how you feel while chewing them. I think apples are robust and grapes are soft, for instance. There are a lot of complex details, which a good pastry chef would perfectly explain.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that adding fruits to the cake is as complex as mixing colours in your oil on canvas!

Reply to Hanover

Gross. But what's not gross is logic. A goat is often considered associated with malevolent deities in Abrahamic religion. I almost said folklore, understandably, since you treat others as the same.

What is also understandable is just how strange the goat really is. It is the only creature ever discovered, that's female counterpart to the male, also has a beard. It's weird! Hence the word goatee. But that's far too deep occult knowledge for the likes of most here, certainly you.

Reply to javi2541997 My favorite fruit is the carrot cake.

Quoting javi2541997

The point was to make the fruits protagonists of the dessert.

You have to make a Hero's Journey for them where they struggle to uncover a secret about why they're stuck in a cake, and this reveals death and destruction from their past lives where they were eaten by birds and shat out on the lawn.

I hope this isn't in poor taste, but I am simply too excited to care.

I actually ordered a book from one of you guys (members on the site) and it came not two hours ago, from an irregular (the regular person called out, apparently) and oddly-timid UPS driver. Though, perhaps my appearance has that affect on new people. Or perhaps, the sheer metaphysical weight of your book left even the delivery driver in awe! Haha. (to be fair he was probably just withdrawing from alcohol. it's how it is in these parts)



@Pieter R van Wyk: So, right off the bat I notice it's full of "maths" which I do not like, but will, as you said, try my best "not to get frustrated with the first chapter." Nonetheless, even without reading, it brings its own aura of joy knowing I have in my hands a manifestation of your thoughts, thoughts which, not to be morbid, may only be directly accessed and responded to for a finite amount of time. Thus creating infinity, in a sense. Ha. You will note the double placement of near 2-carat emeralds, thus signifying what a gem you are for contributing to the world sphere in the way you have done. Cheers! While we still can, eh? :party:

I will note, it is cheaply packaged, as it says "Self published by Amazon Kindle", the printings or markings are rather sloppy thus discouraging many buyers, but as it is said, only a fool judges a book by its cover. So, perhaps this was intentional. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it was!

As proof of this purchase, that it is not AI, or some other fabrication, similar to obtaining a token of one's prey, allow me to quote #18: (Actually I can't recall or find it right now) But! It is something about truth doesn't care about politics. I notice there is actually a heavily political tinge in many of your quotes, including "truth cannot be voted in by politics" or the like but anyway. Yeah. You did a thing! That's more than most here can say.

Anyway. At least you made something to put on the market the average person can purcahse and gain hold of. Unlike the rest of these arrogant lazybones posters here. :razz:

#18: Neither truth nor reality gives a damn about politics.

Fruit started another night shift with the knawing feeling that something was wrong. The same half bitten moon hung in the same dark chocolate sky, but Fruit couldn't shake it: this empty hunger to know the truth.

I'll find the answer Fruit thought. I'll gather the evidence crumb by crumb. I won't give up until I'm rotting in the grave like so much debris thrown into the trash.

Reply to T Clark Hehe, best of luck with all that!

Quoting Outlander

Nonetheless, even without reading, it brings its own aura...

Isn't that the opening phase of a migraine?

Quoting Hanover

My favorite fruit is the carrot cake.

That's my favourite too! :cool:

Quoting frank

You have to make a Hero's Journey for them where they struggle to uncover a secret about why they're stuck in a cake, and this reveals death and destruction from their past lives where they were eaten by birds and shat out on the lawn.

This sounds like an excellent idea, frank.

But, sadly, I learnt in this thread (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16188/first-vs-third-person-wheres-the-mystery) that vegetables and plants do not "suffer" or experience pain as we do. So, we should change the tactical operation.

Oh, October reminder: This month marks the tenth anniversary of TPF!!!!!!

Prepare your feet and bodies, mates. :party: :eyes:

Quoting javi2541997

But, sadly, I learnt in this thread (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16188/first-vs-third-person-wheres-the-mystery) that vegetables and plants do not "suffer" or experience pain as we do.

Certainly one of the themes of the novel will be unrealized potential due to conformity and manipulation by the "culture industry.". Our protagonists will learn negative hope through conscious resistance to societal domination rather than grasping for a guaranteed positive outcome.

Reply to frank

Wow, frank, I think this has gone off the rails. This situation has escalated beyond control. :fear:

Reply to javi2541997
It's always darkest before the dawn.

Reply to Outlander

:pray:

New evidence of my fundamental assumption: "... I must assume that my perception that I exist, physically, is a valid perception. Also (read here the logical and), I must assume that my perception that you (@Outlander) exist physically, is a valid perception ... You see, if these assumptions of mine are false, then I do not exist, you do not exist, and the understanding that I am trying to describe to you cannot exist - then nothing else would make any sense, only our non-existence."

Now, to find the fatal flaw in the reasoning that follows from this assumption.

Who is actually in charge at Burbleson Air Force base?

Quoting frank

Who is actually in charge at Burbleson Air Force base?

@Michael Bay , Wolfgang and me.

Why do you ask?

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

I must assume that my perception that you (@Outlander) exist physically, is a valid perception

You can't have a theory that assumes all perception valid because sometimes it's not.

Reply to Hanover

I do not assume that all perceptions are valid!

Quoting javi2541997

But, sadly, I learnt in this thread (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16188/first-vs-third-person-wheres-the-mystery) that vegetables and plants do not "suffer" or experience pain as we do. So, we should change the tactical operation.

Not only do tomatoes suffer as we do, they philosophize about whether humans suffer as they do.

Avocados suffer as well, but they don't give a shit about how we feel.

Summer squashes are too immature to feel or think much of anything, while pumpkins are ornery, complaining about how things have become.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

I do not assume that all perceptions are valid!

Then why do you choose to assume your perception of Outlander is?

Reply to Hanover

:yikes: I now can also assume my perception that @Hanover exist physically is valid - I have physical evidence of existence

Quoting Hanover

Not only do tomatoes suffer as we do, they philosophize about whether humans suffer as they do.

Once upon a time, a tomato whispered to my ear that they suffer when we cook them to make ketchup. It is mockery, according to this unnamed tomato.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

I do not assume that all perceptions are valid!

Give me an example of a perception you have that you don't assume valid.

Quoting javi2541997

Once upon a time, a tomato whispered to my ear that they suffer when we cook them to make ketchup. It is mockery, according to this unnamed tomato.

Was that information he provided to you so scandalous that he insisted upon remaining anonymous and speaking in hushed tones?

Quoting Hanover

Was that information he provided to you so scandalous that he insisted upon remaining anonymous and speaking in hushed tones?

Yep; but do not take it personally. Tomatoes value their privacy.

Quoting Hanover

Give me an example of a perception you have that you don't assume valid.

I assume that all my perceptions are valid - they keep me sane - I think. If you have a perception that I do not exist physically, for example, I would regard such a perception not valid.

Reply to Hanover Don't need a theory. One simply accepts everything as true. You don't have to accept it as your truth.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

I assume that all my perceptions are valid - they keep me sane - I think. If you have a perception that I do not exist physically, for example, I would regard such a perception not valid.

Are you saying you question my veracity in telling you what I perceive, or are you saying you think I actually can misperceive, but it's just you and you alone who can't misperceive?

Quoting Hanover

Are you saying you question my veracity in telling you what I perceive, or are you saying you think I actually can misperceive, but it's just you and you alone who can't misperceive?

The only perception from you that you have shared with me is: "You can't have a theory that assumes all perception valid because sometimes it's not." Since my theory does not assume this, I do, indeed, question your veracity - specifically and only for this statement.

Any person can "misperceive", and yes, the statement 'any person' does include me!

Reply to Outlander

Do the two framed turquose chiclets come with the book?

It's your move, btw.

Quoting praxis

Do the two framed turquose chiclets come with the book?

I'll have you know those are genuine emerald gemstones. Entire civilizations have been sacked, massacred, and turned to rubble over the pursuit of such. So have a little respect.

Quoting praxis

It's your move, btw.

I see that and was fully aware, thank you. Is this the new low of the modern age? Rushing people at chess so they don't think out their moves clearly and concisely. And to think. I would've bet life and limb you of all people would have been above that! :razz:

Quoting Outlander

Entire civilizations have been sacked, massacred, and turned to rubble over the pursuit of such.

Hence the fabled battlecry: “A chiclet! A chiclet! My kingdom for a chiclet!”

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

The only perception from you that you have shared with me is: "You can't have a theory that assumes all perception valid because sometimes it's not."

That's not a perception. That's a rational assessment. To perceive means to sense (see, hear, smell, taste, or feel) something, so maybe we need a different word here.

We previously began a conversation about root vegetables, and I fear I didn't discuss the yucca. Last night, you see, I made a stew of yuca, carrots, onion, beef, some red peppers, and I also added in the lonely green bell pepper that called out from the corner of my fridge next to the new jar of lingonberry jam that I secured as part of my prior berry adventure..

This Championship Stew (as I shall call it) now rests sleepily in the fridge (not terribly far from the whereabouts of the lingonberry jam) as well. It doesn't call out, but it instead screams to be eaten, not unlike an angry dominatrix. Yes, I am happy with that simile.

Yuca has a creamy texture when cooked and it's lower on the glycemic index than potatoes but higher in calories. My goal is to find the perfect potato substitute, having tried rutabega to mixed reviews last time. I remain open for suggestions and I look forward to hearing from everyone here regarding everything yuca.

Quoting Hanover

I look forward to hearing from everyone here regarding everything yucca.

Well, it has one thing going for it. It's aptly-named. :smirk:

Quoting Hanover

That's not a perception. That's a rational assessment. To perceive means to sense (see, hear, smell, taste, or feel) something, so maybe we need a different word here.

So, to notice. If you "see" something unfamiliar, you might think that something to be dangerous. Because that's your assessment. This is called an automatic assessment, in which terms like rational or irrational simply do not apply except for the subjective sense. Meaning, if you don't know something is dangerous, like coming across a grizzly bear for the first time with no knowledge of it, why would you think it be? Perhaps it being an animal? Perhaps it being large? What if you have no conceptual knowledge of such things?

So, back to how perception is almost automatically and immediately followed by assessment. What word would suit you better? Or do you reject the dichotomous pairing altogether? Should we call it, observation? Discernment? Judgement? Situational Analysis? Come now, surely you know more words than I. :grin:

Reply to Hanover

No, a rational assessment is a perception.

perceive 1 become aware or conscious of 2 regard as. [i]Oxford South African Concise Dictionary[/I]

"Through perception, we gain information, glean knowledge, construct abstract things and conjure imaginary things - and play politics." p201 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Reply to BC It seems to be working. Paying 55 for a pouch of tobacco that was $22 fifteen years ago is a big turn off for most.

We also the issue of (don't read this the way it sounds, basically) Maori and Pasifika essentially refusing medical advice around things like smoking and drinking. That population is quite small, comparitively, so while other populations decrease, they don't at the same rate. That's where our 'bugaboo' is because effectively helping those groups is difficult between their cultural divides and the very real history of being fucked over by authorities.

Reply to BC Yes. I think impulse control is one of the least-good things about humans. And education.

A new justice is born and dies on the lips of each man who would pronounce it.

Quoting Hanover

Not only do tomatoes suffer as we do, they philosophize about whether humans suffer as they do.

Avocados suffer as well, but they don't give a shit about how we feel.

Summer squashes are too immature to feel or think much of anything, while pumpkins are ornery, complaining about how things have become.

The monkeys stand for honesty
Giraffes are insincere
And the elephants are kindly but they're dumb
Orangutans are skeptical
Of changes in their cages
And the zookeeper is very fond of rum
Zebras are reactionaries
Antelopes are missionaries
Pigeons plot in secrecy
And hamsters turn on frequently

Reply to T Clark

Pigeons plot in secrecy

I thought crows and magpies did that.

Quoting AmadeusD

basically) Maori and Pasifika essentially refusing medical advice around things like smoking and drinking.

It is quite difficult --maybe impossible-- for public health educators who represent the dominant white society to devise effective education programs for alienated minority people. American aboriginal people generally have poorer health outcomes across the board largely because of poverty. But there is also alienation and education deficits. Poor people -- white, black, Indian -- whatever -- who lack education and are alienated and suffer from various deficits do poorly too, pretty much across the board.

As difficult as it might be, public health programs have to find a way to relate on good terms with the minority communities, and find some people there who are interesting in educating their community. It's difficult, but doable over time. Great diplomacy is required, because the affected communities generally don't have good reason to trust reps from places like "Department of Public Health".

It isn't that white public health workers are too stupid to educate minorities; a larger part of the problem is "who they are" rather than "what they know". That's why they need people from the community to be the right "who".

Minnesota did a good job reaching white gay men about AIDS and STDs. It took longer to reach black communities, and it's still not complete. Same thing with American Indians. It isn't stupidity on the community's part -- it's a lack of trust in the dominant society, and a lack of belief in the efficacy of changing one's life -- safer sex, quit smoking, quitting street drugs, quit drinking so much. You have to believe there is a real pay-off.

"Old Father's Quote #8. One should not stop living because you are afraid of dying. (2011-02-02)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Bad things are going on in the Lounge. I am afraid. :eyes:

Let me "haiku" that real quick, though.

[i]"Words fail, chaos reigns.
Frustration defeats logic.
I am now afraid."[/i]

Beautiful. See, if there's one skill in life you need, it's how to turn tragedy and unpleasantness into something new. Something, well, beautiful. :ok:

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

No, a rational assessment is a perception.

I see what you mean. Seeing isn't seeing. It's understanding, supporting my theory all is metaphor.

Quoting Hanover

I see what you mean. Seeing isn't seeing. It's understanding, supporting my theory all is metaphor.

metaphor 1* n a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable 2* a thing regarded as symbolic of something else Oxford South African Concise Dictionary

I guess you are referring to the second definition: metaphor := a thing regarded as symbolic of something else. Is this the case?

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

I guess you are referring to the second definition: metaphor := a thing regarded as symbolic of something else. Is this the case?

As in to see means to understand and not to literally see.

Quoting BC

American aboriginal people generally have poorer health outcomes across the board largely because of poverty. But there is also alienation and education deficits.

They can go to college for free though.

Quoting BC

Minnesota did a good job reaching white gay men about AIDS and STDs. It took longer to reach black communities, and it's still not complete.

This points in the direction that minority status isn't the most reliable means of predicting poor health outreach outcomes, as much as poverty and lack of education is. That would mean you'd look not to whether they were white or black or Asian or Indian, but upon what their socioeconomic status is. That is, I'd think outreach is far more difficult in white Appalachian communities than affluent Korean communities, despite the former being members of the dominant ethnicity.

Quoting AmadeusD

effectively helping those groups is difficult

Yes, and I think the key to success is that the native people believe that extinguishing unhealthy (but common) behavior will pay off in the future. If they don't believe that it will pay off for them, personally, what would be the point of quitting smoking, drugs, drinking, and whatever else?

Quoting Hanover

I'd think outreach is far more difficult in white Appalachian communities than affluent Korean communities

Sure, but not because Appalachian whites have more difficulty changing behavior than Koreans. It should be easy to find a well-educated Korean to do public health work in that community. Finding a well educated Appalachian outreach worker would be more difficult. The Appalachian white probably has less belief in the efficacy of changing one's behavior. How many Appalachian white people do they know who have worked hard in high school, gone on to college and graduate school, and became professional successes? Zero to very few, I would guess.

Quoting frank

They can go to college for free though.

If, for instance, they live in Maine or California and are members of a Federally recognized tribe. Some tribes may have funds to help pay or tribal members' college education; others may not. I'm not familiar with the rules, but I bet that in California the Native American student has to perform reasonably well to continue getting funded.

Quoting Hanover

This points in the direction that minority status isn't the most reliable means of predicting poor health outreach outcomes, as much as poverty and lack of education is

Correlation isn't causation, but the coefficient of correlation is high for Native American or Black people and poorer health outcomes, as well as for poverty and low levels of education and poor health outcomes. For carrying out public health programs, the "who" is important -- the PH workers need to be from, be familiar with, and look/sound like the communities they are in. A poor, uneducated white might be in the same socioeconomic group as the target community, but they most likely don't look like /sound like the target.

Quoting Hanover

Yuca has a creamy texture when cooked and it's lower on the glycemic index than potatoes but higher in calories.

Which variety did you use? We have two basic types here, yellow and white, both get used in soups and stews and as you say are healthier that potatoes.

Quoting Hanover

I remain open for suggestions and I look forward to hearing from everyone here regarding everything yuca.

Boil the yuca until soft but not dissolved then,
1. stirfry in garlic and union flavored butter until golden. Great with fish.
2. in french fries sized strips cook like french fries.
3. in chip thin slices, fry or toast to use with dips.
4. grate or mash like potatoes.
Please subscribe to my webpage for more yummy ways to devour yuca and other tropical delights.

Quoting Hanover

My goal is to find the perfect potato substitute, having tried rutabega to mixed reviews last time.

You can do most of the above with breadfruit.

Honestly, I’m curious... where on the forum are the discussions that tie philosophy back to the real world?

A lot of threads seem to spiral into wordplay, name-dropping, or theoretical fog. That can be interesting in its way, but I’m more interested in approaches that don’t occult reality, but instead confront it head-on: philosophy as it’s lived, tested, and experienced.

Why so many posts that just kinda gloss abstractions without the ability to verify simply through lived experience?

I guess that's because much of philosophy feels like a priestly enterprise — abstractions that veil the real world instead of affirming it. I’d rather wrestle with life than with ghosts of words.

It's always Mayan veil after Mayan veil. That said, I tend to find the best "real" topics here in the shout box...

Truth is the shadow of our categories, justified only for as long as the mind can hold them together.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Why so many posts that just kinda gloss abstractions without the ability to verify simply through lived experience?

I think a lot of that has to do with the suspicion and skepticism people here feel about intuition and introspection.

Quoting DifferentiatingEgg

Honestly, I’m curious... where on the forum are the discussions that tie philosophy back to the real world?

Those threads await your creation.

"Old Father's Quote #9. Being clever could be hereditary or it could be due to the environment. Stupidity is right there in the genes. (2014-01-23)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Hanover

As in to see means to understand and not to literally see.

I see what you mean.

Hedging is a way of reducing losses by doing directly opposing things at the same time. For instance, you enter two discussion about idealism. In one, you agree with it, in the other, you disagree. You're hedging your philosophical position. But why isn't it net zero? Hedging is all about how you manage the two positions.

So in the one where you're right, you get really condescending, and you're like, I told you! You walk away with bonus points. In the one where you're wrong, there are a lot of possibilities for walking away without a large gash in your profit. You can just start randomly changing the topic, so it looks like you weren't wrong. Or you can take one little word that they said and explain why that's got to be the wrong word. You may have to get creative, but keep in mind, that there's always the possibility that you can make more bonus points on the hedges than on the winning discussion.

Spain :heart: :

[url=https://postimg.cc/Vrp1pvD3]


Sorry for being an amateur photographer.

Reply to javi2541997

Very nice. Reminds me of La Mancha somehow :smile:

Reply to frank Totally agree. :100:

Reply to frank Total bullshit. :down:

Reply to Jamal Thanks, Jamal! :smile:

The photo was taken in La Mancha, but the windmills shown are not the ones that appear in Don Quixote.

These windmills are in Alcázar de San Juan (Ciudad Real province): https://maps.app.goo.gl/d8bkmehkwLxuUDhTA

@Jamal

Where did last year's short stories go?

Reply to Christoffer

If you can't see the 2024 stories category under the Symposium, it might be because there has been a problem with permissions recently. I thought it was only affecting moderators but maybe not.

Try it now.

Reply to Jamal

There might be some confusion since the naming is inconsistent. You have 'Short Stories', 'Short Stories Competition 1, 2 3, etc' that have no date, then it goes to 'Short Stories Aug 2023', 'Short Stories Dec 2023', etc. that have dates, and in between.

Quoting Christoffer

Where did last year's short stories go?

I can see recent short stories by clicking the first link titled 'Short Stories', however this is confusing because it contains stories posted 8 months as well as multiple posted 4 years ago.

At this point, without some slight reorganizing, they may as well as be in one bin. :razz:

Edit: Wait a minute, that might just be an off category for random posting of any short story anytime. Since the threads there range from being posted 2 months ago to 4 years ago.

--

So, no, Jamal, there is no visible link under The Symposium menu that shows '2024' anywhere, to me. Which I assume am under the same permissions schema as 99% of all other posters.

Unecarte:I do not think, therefore I exist.

[quote=À-la-carte]Soup of the day - sweet and sour Hanover[/quote]

[quote=A-la-cartel]Nice philosophical joint you have here, shame if it got hacked or something.[/quote]

Unecarte:I do not think, therefore I exist.

This nonsense might best prove the cogito a tautology. "I" entails am (existence).

I X therefore I am, where X can be thinking, walking, or doing nothing.

What happened to the philosophical essays from the event that @Moliere initiated recently? I was trying to find @Baden's entry, "Technoethics: Freedom, Precarity, and Enzymatic Knowledge Machines." It is nowhere to be found.

I hope they weren't lost. Those threads seemed like a high water mark for TPF content.

Reply to Leontiskos

I recall that piece of literature. Actually, since I'm not ashamed of myself nor do I have desires or habits the world considers horrid, nor am I a criminal, I keep my browser history as it is. From years back even. The link to that is:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15987/tpf-essay-technoethics-freedom-precarity-and-enzymatic-knowledge-machines/p1

No use in clicking, it simply shows "Page Not Found."

However, if you really want to read it, I notice you can do so here.

So, my hunch is perhaps either this is, most likely per the site owner's statement, a glitch or unintentional mishap. Or, perhaps the author wishes to keep his thoughts to himself and perhaps publish a book, not wishing to allow the opportunity for others to glean wisdom from his innermost thoughts.

Reply to Outlander - I think every essay has disappeared, not just @Baden's.

Reply to Leontiskos

Oh my friend, nothing online disappears. Nothing. :naughty:

Reply to Outlander - The question of external sites archiving parts of the internet is a separate question, but it is not true that everything on the internet gets archived, or that everything which was archived remains archived.

When I say that an essay disappeared, I mean that it disappeared from TPF, not that it is inaccessible from any publicly accessible computer server now in existence.

Quoting Outlander

So, my hunch is perhaps either this is [...] a glitch or unintentional mishap.

Right, and the goal here is to get the essays back into their place on TPF given that they represent some of the most substantial thinking that has occurred on TPF in recent years. Or else to understand why they have disappeared from TPF.

Reply to Leontiskos Reply to Outlander

It’s still there. There’s just a glitch or bug or something that makes it so you can’t see it.

Reply to Jamal - Okay, interesting. :up:

Reply to Jamal

After whatever you did I can see it now, can everyone else as well?

Also… is there any plan for a new run for 2025? Kinda looking forward to these things each year.

Quoting Christoffer

After whatever you did I can see it now, can everyone else as well?

[s]After clearing my cache I can now see it.[/s]

Actually I can only see it when I am logged out.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15987/tpf-essay-technoethics-freedom-precarity-and-enzymatic-knowledge-machines/p1

Quoting Leontiskos

Actually I can only see it when I am logged out.

Gentlemen, the answer is now quite obvious. @Baden, the man who we thought was merely an innocuous fellow poster is clearly some sort of demi-god, blessing — whether purposely or unintentionally — his great work with some sort of visibility spell ensuring only the worthy may ever see and gaze upon its true form, not unlike that which befell Medusa.

Thankfully, instead of being turned to stone, we mortals simply see a "Not Found" page. Truly a sign of his unyielding benevolence.

That or Jamal really needs to get in contact with PlushForums support. :razz:

(Fun fact and noteworthy mention of kudos, or perhaps a sign of the times, TPF is listed as #1 client on the official PlushForums clients page. I'll be sure to keep that in mind and post less provocatively.)

Reply to Leontiskos They are not lost.

Something weird happened that I nor @Jamal understand -- I had the same thing happen recently, and I can read them now.

Some odd update made them invisible, but they are there: Apparently it's effecting everyone.

Quoting Outlander

Gentlemen, the answer is now quite obvious. Baden, the man who we thought was merely an innocuous fellow poster is clearly some sort of demi-god, blessing — whether purposely or unintentionally — his great work with some sort of visibility spell ensuring only the worthy may ever see and gaze upon its true form, not unlike that which befell Medusa.

:lol:

Reply to Moliere - Okay, thanks. :up:

Useful new word: Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It by Cory Doctorow

Enshitification is a term coined by technology critic Cory Doctorow to describe the decay of online platforms and services into a state that is less valuable to users.

The Three Stages of Enshittification

Benefit Users
A platform starts by providing significant value to attract a large user base.
Users become "locked in," meaning they are dependent on the platform and have difficulty leaving.

Attract Business Customers
Once users are locked in, the platform begins to prioritize attracting business customers.
This often comes at the expense of the original user experience.

Exploit Both Groups
The platform then extracts as much value as possible from both users and businesses.
This results in poor services, reduced value, and a decline in quality for the initial users, like Google and Facebook.

Doctorow argues that a weakening of competition, regulation, interoperability, and worker power has made this decline possible.

My guess is that the new and useful term will soon be everywhere, then it will be enshittified as well.

Reply to BC

I don't necessarily agree with this as it implies that people are basically, what's the polite word, mentally deficient. Which I generally agree with, at least in comparison to those here and those before us, but that's not the point. A hamster knows when something is painful or no longer of benefit and so scurries along in search of something else.

The math doesn't math, per se. In terms of willful engagement and interaction. Unless you have some claim or postulation that nostalgia or one's "favorite" thing, be it a service or platform, is so overpowering and grand a concept in one's mind it amounts to some sort of near hypnotic Stockholm Syndrome the average person would literally starve to death fixated on before shifting focus elsewhere, which, I, even as a somewhat stalwart critic of modern society (and therefore, naturally, the average, modern person), find quite unlikely.

Quoting Hanover

Totally agree. :100:

:grin:

Quoting Hanover

Total bullshit. :down:

:sad:

Reply to Outlander Your post doesn't speak to the phenomenon described as "enshittification". It's definitely not about nostalgia, hamsters, or Stockholm. It's about how a site-as-product is degraded in order to extract maximum cash value.

Of course, why wouldn't Amazon, Google, or Facebook try to maximize cash value? None of these are public service utilities. They, and others, are merely behaving like capitalists.

Enshittification simply describes the process by which cash and degradation are maximized, to the lament of users who liked the way the product worked in the first place. In contrast to Google, I think Wikipedia, which is a not-for-profit operation, has maintained much of the original experience that people have found there. Likewise, The Philosophy Forum, which is a wouldn't-break-even-let-alone make-so-much-as-a-plug-nickel site, has maintained it's original Philosophy Forum (kaput) function which goes back what -- 20 years now? It's pretty much the same thing over and over, but that's what (apparently) we like.

Reply to BC

Ok, ok, so you're saying many people today use services that they would prefer not to go elsewhere, specifically because feasible alternatives are unavailable or otherwise a major inconvenience.

Like, for me. And everybody I know. If a service is bad. Unless I have a contract or subscription.... which would be my fault for not reading the terms. I'm gone that same day bro. Never hear from me or see a dime from me ever again. Ever. That's how everyone thinks.

I can understand being in the middle of nowhere and you need something crucial like baby formula or insulin but, short of that. You just shop around.

Reply to BC - There's definitely something to that. At the same time there is a less nefarious element, namely the way that online costs have increased over time. In the early days of social media the excitement of the new technologies created an atmosphere where many ongoing costs were written off and not budgeted properly. Over time those costs came under scrutiny which was one of the variables fueling an increased desire for monetization.

Quoting BC

Likewise, The Philosophy Forum, which is a wouldn't-break-even-let-alone make-so-much-as-a-plug-nickel site, has maintained it's original Philosophy Forum (kaput) function which goes back what -- 20 years now? It's pretty much the same thing over and over, but that's what (apparently) we like.

A lot could be said about this particular case, but the general phenomenon you bring up is interesting. Can you think of any other examples of this phenomenon where some institution stays the same even in the midst of so much change?

Quoting BC

The Philosophy Forum, which is a wouldn't-break-even-let-alone make-so-much-as-a-plug-nickel site, has maintained it's original Philosophy Forum (kaput) function which goes back what -- 20 years now? It's pretty much the same thing over and over, but that's what (apparently) we like.

:up: :up:

What would I do without you friends? The Shoubox transformed my life in significant ways. :heart:

By the way, does anyone know what happened to @kazan? I miss him.

"Old Father's Quote #10. Sometimes I find life difficult and complex. Sometimes, I make life difficult and complex. (2014-11-07)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

Sometimes I find life difficult and complex. Sometimes, I make life difficult and complex.

What if you find life difficult because you make it difficult?

Quoting javi2541997

What if you find life difficult because you make it difficult?

then refer (revert) to Old Father's Quote #9

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk

[i]Old Father's Quote #9. Being clever could be hereditary or it could be due to the environment. Stupidity is right there in the genes.[/I]

Conclusion: I may see life as difficult because my stupid genes make it so. Now I wonder whether stupidity and difficulty are hereditary or not.

Reply to javi2541997

No!
Being clever could be hereditary or could be due to the environment <=> being stupid could be hereditary or could be due to the environment.

Difficulty is from the environment and only from the environment.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

Difficulty is from the environment and only from the environment.

I disagree. I think there are some difficulties that stem from hereditary aspects. For example, sicknesses and blood type.

Reply to Leontiskos Some say the Catholic Church never changes. The Church at least doesn't change very fast, but it does change -- sometimes dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 19th century. Once upon a time, the Supreme Court seemed like a reliable institution. Not so much, now. Art museums tend to be reliably the same. If they specialize in contemporary art, they reliably mount shows of the latest thing. If it's 18th century art, you can go, resting assured you won't be confronted by more than scant Jackson Pollock.

Reply to Outlander Nothing wrong with your approach if it works for you.

The most complained about services in the United States are television cable companies which have, apparently, found numerous ways to be aggravate their customers while charging increasing fees. Why don't people ditch the cable? Well, some do -- but for many people over-the-air television is a very limited option, and they like having multiple entertainment options. So they end up stuck with something they don't like with little alternative.

Quoting Christoffer

After whatever you did I can see it now, can everyone else as well?

OK, that suggests I could fix everyone's permissions only by resetting them one by one, which I won't be doing, so I'll ask PlushForums to fix it.

Also… is there any plan for a new run for 2025? Kinda looking forward to these things each year.

New run?

EDIT: Oh yeah, doh: short stories. I don't know, I hope so.

Reply to javi2541997

Hereditary sickness or blood type => difficulty?
No! Only if you are stupid.

The ancestor that lived life with this sickness or blood type, did so well enough to bring forth an offspring, learning to live this life with this hereditary, de facto, burden. This burden that is a result of nature, not from any politics. The offspring could (if he is clever) use science (an understanding of nature) to lighten his hereditary burden or could be prevented from lightening his burden by politics - which would be a difficulty.

Even more so for:

Hereditary sickness and blood type => difficulty. Which represents your statement.

Quoting BC

Doctorow argues that a weakening of competition, regulation, interoperability, and worker power has made this decline possible.

I think it arises just from short term.wealth maximization principles. A product is created, it's value is realized, and the fruit is harvested, stalks, roots and the entirety of the plant before it either dies on the vine or before another better fruit is grown that will outcompete and destroy its value.

Quoting BC

Likewise, The Philosophy Forum, which is a wouldn't-break-even-let-alone make-so-much-as-a-plug-nickel site, has maintained it's original Philosophy Forum (kaput) function which goes back what -- 20 years now? It's pretty much the same thing over and over, but that's what (apparently) we like.

Well Porat tried to monetize it, but he just misunderstood its value. He saw consistent committed customers as proof of financial value, but he misunderstood it was propped up by free volunteer labor, donors providing free storage space, product created by willing volunteers purely for entertainment that refuse management or direction, all operating within a culture openly antagonistic toward advertisers and consumerism. That is to say, he actually didn't know philosophy and money were like oil and water.

I'm not spinning a triumphant tale of resistance to capitalistic takeover. I'm just pointing out our widget isn't marketable in any traditional sense, immunizing us from predators, or at least predators of any sophistication.

yikes?! The sporadic image disappearances were disconcerting enough, but now still others, with new message "not viewable in your region"?

Quoting bongo fury

yikes?! The sporadic image disappearances were disconcerting enough, but now still others, with new message "not viewable in your region"?

If this pertains to a problem with the site, can you describe what you're referring to?

Why did my post get deleted?

Reply to Copernicus

Posts, particularly OPs (original posts, the ones that initiate discussions) must present their content in the form of text, written specially for the discussion, i.e., not simply copied and pasted. Your OPs appear to be screenshot images.

Reply to Jamal I converted PDF to PNG to save time writing them.

Reply to Jamal https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16195/the-libertarian-dilemma is it okay?

Reply to Copernicus

Better, certainly. We tend to frown on the practice of copying and pasting essays and theories into TPF posts. It is a kind of self-promotion, which is against the rules. You've made no attempt to address the TP audience. It's just an essay you wrote. This is not a platform for the publication of essays—we have a specific philosophy writing contest for that.

If you're going to engage in the ensuing discussion I'll let it go on this occasion.

You might want to read this:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/7110/how-to-write-an-op

Reply to Jamal The purpose of my post was to present a background analysis before submitting for readers' input.

Reply to Copernicus

All right. It would be nice if you could say so in the post, to introduce what you have to say.

Reply to Jamal

Not a biggie. A newie, though.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/923649

Reply to bongo fury

Thanks. As I suspected. A few days ago Imgur blocked UK users from accessing images hosted on their servers:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gzxv5gy3qo

You could get round it with a VPN, or move to another country. :wink:

I tend to upload images to postimages.org. If you can see this, it still works for the UK:

Ok thanks. It wasn't in my post, and it was a useful diagram, and the poster is banned... nvm :cool:

Reply to Jamal :ok: The Lenin test image is visible here is the US.

Reply to bongo fury

I can see it, so if you really need to see the image I can upload it to postimages and edit Lionino's post to use the new url?

Reply to Hanover

Glad to hear it. Yes, users in the land of the free shouldn't have any access problems.

Reply to Jamal Need and need... I was glad to refer to it. Could draw it myself of course. But yes please :pray:

Reply to bongo fury Answer those messages on WhatsApp, damn it!

Reply to bongo fury

Assuming you could see the Lenin above, this should now work for you:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/923649

Reply to Jamal

Thanks :up:

Please confirm if you can see the Great Emancipator as transmitted by the United States:

Reply to Hanover

I hereby confirm.

[quote=Karl Marx to Abraham Lincoln, January 1865;https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm]We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.[/quote]

RIP.

The individual faith comes at the expense of the communal cohesion.

It's not the opiate of the masses. It's a bastion of individualism directly opposing state directed communal cohesion making it the enemy of the state, denigrated as a mindless drug by those who oppose it.

Reply to Hanover

Interesting reversal. Is it right though? I think sometimes yes, sometimes no.

An example of when it certainly was subversive is very early Christianity in the Roman Empire, when the state religion was the old polytheistic one, and social practice was partly determined by it. Faith in Christ was thus a dangerous and radical anti-state assertion of individual freedom of thought.

But if faith aligns with the state-directed "communal cohesion" then it's a force for conformity and obedience to the authorities.

By the way, if you had Marx in mind when you mentioned those who denigrate religious faith as a "mindless drug", you've misinterpreted him.

On the other hand, your idea is definitely a challenge to Marx's assertion that religion, though it provides meaning and is "the heart of a heartless world", encourages docility and subservience, and defangs rebellion.

Here is a fascinating thing I've noticed about myself recently. I've begun to leave typos and mistakes in my posts, to give them the mark of authentic humanity in an online world now dominated by AI. I'm just one guy, but I expect this is a sign of big cultural changes.

If course, the real creative challenge is to give your work that mark of humanity without mistakes.

Quoting Jamal

I think sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I agree, and even at the beginning of the modern period when freedom of religion was being pursued, what was at stake was not the freedom of the individual but rather the freedom of established traditions/religions. To oversimplify, you could say that before the pluralism of the Reformation the only "conscience" was the conscience of the societal whole. As a result of the Reformation a new level of "conscience" emerged, which was attached to the pluralistic entities (religions/cultures) within the broader society. Then this eventually produced a concern for individual conscience. After those two stages of development you end up with three "consciences": that of the societal whole, that of the pluralistic parts (religions/cultures), and that of the individual. As I've mentioned before, I do not believe that @Hanover's association of faith with individualism is historically tenable, and this is because the "individual conscience" (or faith) piece comes relatively late.

Quoting Jamal

Here is a fascinating thing I've noticed about myself recently. I've begun to leave typos and mistakes in my posts, to give them the mark of authentic humanity in an online world now dominated by AI. I'm just one guy, but I expect this is a sign of big cultural changes.

I have been thinking about that sort of thing as well. For example, a friend of mine who does video editing told me that there is a new fad of low-quality, unvarnished video, which is currently advertising very well in the midst of polished AI fakery. Of course the AI will inevitably mimic these sorts of maneuvers, which must therefore be temporary.

Quoting Jamal

If course, the real creative challenge is to give your work that mark of humanity without mistakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

Half-facetiously speaking, it doesn't seem that difficult to bestow a "mark of humanity" on one's arguments.

[hide="Reveal"]Step 1. Act like you know things you actually have no way of knowing.

Step 2. Become envious of those who do know things you do not.

Step 3. When proven wrong, either double down or backtrack to a point that is basically common sense. Bonus points for attacking the other person's character or image instead of the argument.

Step 4. The more profane or frustrated you are, the more blatantly correct your argument is, and simultaneously incorrect and deplorable your opponent is.[/hide]

Did I miss any? Probably. But that should cover the basics. :lol:

Reply to Outlander

You cynic.

Quoting Jamal

Interesting reversal. Is it right though? I think sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Sometimes yes and no to be sure, as in no in a theocracy where religion and state are intertwined. Theocracy is not a bastion of individualism, but it does limit rule to an external notion of right and wrong beyond what democratic society might demand, assuming agreement on what the external authority is (particularly if scriptua/textuall).

But, as with everything me, I think in Judaism, where otherness is protected, creating a halfway assimilation, where refusal to fully join the larger community (refusal to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, marry the same women, admit to the same source of morality, etc.) makes state control of them impossible. It doesn't necessarily create friends either, but it protects the otherness.

In modern Western society though, the most difficult group a Marxist would have to wrestle with wouldn't be the microscopic Jews, but the scriptually adherent Christians who quite literally see Marxists (and to lesser degree any government) as the anti-christ.

Quoting Jamal

Here is a fascinating thing I've noticed about myself recently. I've begun to leave typos and mistakes in my posts, to give them the mark of authentic humanity in an online world now dominated by AI. I'm just one guy, but I expect this is a sign of big cultural changes.

A lab created diamond is identifiable due to its otherwise impossible perfection, making it worth less than a more flawed natural diamond. Your errors in your posts are those natural inclusions and blemishes that make them of higher value, like the finest of diamond, even if incoherent slop.

Quoting Leontiskos

I agree, and even at the beginning of the modern period when freedom of religion was being pursued, what was at stake was not the freedom of the individual but rather the freedom of established traditions/religions. To oversimplify, you could say that before the pluralism of the Reformation the only "conscience" was the conscience of the societal whole. As a result of the Reformation a new level of "conscience" emerged, which was attached to the pluralistic entities (religions/cultures) within the broader society. Then this eventually produced a concern for individual conscience. After those two stages of development you end up with three "consciences": that of the societal whole, that of the pluralistic parts (religions/cultures), and that of the individual. As I've mentioned before, I do not believe that Hanover's association of faith with individualism is historically tenable, and this is because the "individual conscience" (or faith) piece comes relatively late.

Well said.

Quoting Leontiskos

Of course the AI will inevitably mimic these sorts of maneuvers, which must therefore be temporary.

That did occur to me.

Quoting Leontiskos

I've mentioned before, I do not believe that Hanover's association of faith with individualism is historically tenable, and this is because the "individual conscience" (or faith) piece comes relatively late.

I speak of now though, not of yesterday. My post was present tense.

Quoting Hanover

But, as with everything me, I think in Judaism, where otherness is protected, creating a halfway assimilation, where refusal to fully join the larger community (refusal to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, marry the same women, admit to the same source of morality, etc.) makes state control of them impossible. It doesn't necessarily create friends either, but it protects the otherness.

That’s a very interesting topic, and I largely agree, but I’m not sure there’s a necessary connection with religious faith.

Quoting Hanover

A lab created diamond is identifiable due to its otherwise impossible perfection, making it worth less than a more flawed natural diamond. Your errors in your posts are those natural inclusions and blemishes that make them of higher value, like the finest of diamond, even if incoherent slop.

:pray:

Quoting Jamal

That’s a very interesting topic, and I largely agree, but I’m not sure there’s a necessary connection with religious faith

I think that's right, but religious allegiance or just identification, is a good example of it. Living in a society but answering to an outside authority creates an internal critic within that society, never fully loyal to the common ideology.

It would identify the source of friction between the religious and government. But, I do think you could get the same issues with non religious organizations that create that sort of loyalty.

Reply to Hanover

I agree. And I think Christianity in particular has a lot of subversive potential owing to its universalism, which is usually in opposition with the entire concept of nation states, and therefore represents an alternative to any particular state's ideology. That's why Zizek likes Christianity so much.

Of course, this potential is rarely realized. Just look at the Russian Orthodox Church these days, cheering for the special military operation (its leaders, at least).

Quoting Hanover

But, as with everything me, I think in Judaism, where otherness is protected, creating a halfway assimilation, where refusal to fully join the larger community (refusal to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, marry the same women, admit to the same source of morality, etc.) makes state control of them impossible. It doesn't necessarily create friends either, but it protects the otherness.

These are interesting points, but I don't think the otherness is protected in an autonomous Israel, is it? I think that's the rub: the state has a "religion" and the individual has a "religion," and otherness will only occur when those are two different "religions."

Quoting Hanover

I speak of now though, not of yesterday. My post was present tense.

That's fair, but I would also argue that the notion of individual conscience is not only the most recent to emerge, but is also the most fragile and unintuitive. It's always the first thing to go when shit hits the fan, because coercion occurs whenever shit hits the fan and the lone individual is always at a disadvantage in games of coercion.

Quoting Hanover

A lab created diamond is identifiable due to its otherwise impossible perfection, making it worth less than a more flawed natural diamond. Your errors in your posts are those natural inclusions and blemishes that make them of higher value, like the finest of diamond, even if incoherent slop.

Very nice. :fire:

Quoting Hanover

I'm not spinning a triumphant tale of resistance to capitalistic takeover. I'm just pointing out our widget isn't marketable in any traditional sense, immunizing us from predators, or at least predators of any sophistication.

This is from Ziporyn’s translation of the Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi)—

Sir Shoestrap the Southland Unk was traveling in the hills of Shang when he came across a huge tree. He marveled at it, for the horses from a thousand chariots could have cooled themselves in its shade. “What sort of tree is this?” said Master Shoestrap. “It must be of unusually fine material.” Looking up at its branches, he saw that they were too twisted and gnarled to be used for beams or pillars. Looking down at its trunk, he saw that it was too splotched and split to be used for a coffin. It stung and stabbed the tongue when licked, and crazed and inebriated the mind for three days when sniffed. Master Shoestrap said, “It turns out to be a worthless tree, and thus it has been able to grow so huge. Ah! This is the worthlessness that the Spiritlike Person relies on!

Quoting Leontiskos

These are interesting points, but I don't think the otherness is protected in an autonomous Israel, is it? I think that's the rub: the state has a "religion" and the individual has a "religion," and otherness will only occur when those are two different "religions."

There's a long story to tell about the distinctions between secular Israelis and the religious. You might have seen articles on the tension between the haredi (ultra orthodox) and secular jews, where the haredi up until recently were not required to enlist in the military.

The past 50 years of Judaism has seen a continued emphasis of rigorous study, dating back to the early 1800s, where the religion became centered on the Yeshiva (Latvik/Lithuanian influences), the political influence of the heads of the Yeshivas, and the ever growing religiosity of the Orthodox (the haredi). That is, there are rules now described where previously not identified, based upon textual analysis that didn't occur through the ages.

The historical basis for this increased religiosity is explainable as protective of the flame, so to speak. The conversation involves historical events in Eastern Europe (political pressures on previously autonomous Jewish communities), the introduction of Enlightenment ideas into Judaism (haskala), backlash to Hasidic mysticism and reliance upon rabbis and not text, and then later protections against full assimilation and identity loss in the US following the holocaust (shoah in Hebrew, "catastrophe") now that there were no externally imposed boundaries (the shtetl).

But this isn't exclusive to Judaism. Kierkegaard spends much ink on discussing the meaning of being Christian and how it is not equivalent to being Dutch. He discussed what he thought true faith was and wanted to return true Christian belief to the Dutch Christian culture (i.e. return Christiandom to Christianity).

Reply to T Clark Yep, one way to keep from being robbed is to not have shit to steal.

Quoting Hanover

one way to keep from being robbed is to not have shit to steal.

In the modern age of surgical practice, one always has "shit to steal." Particularly devout religious folk who take good care of their bodies.

Quoting Hanover

Yep, one way to keep from being robbed is to not have shit to steal.

There are 81 verses in the Tao Te Ching. It’s surprising how many of them boil down to exactly that.

Quoting T Clark

There are 81 verses in the Tao Te Ching. It’s surprising how many of them boil down to exactly that.

Collingswood said true art is being able to say the same shit in different ways so that you can fill up a book.

Quoting Hanover

Collingswood said true art is being able to say the same shit in different ways so that you can fill up a book.

Yes, I remember that. I think it was in “The Art of the Deal.”

Reply to Hanover - That's all understood, and I appreciate the information, but it seems to me that the problem is that as soon as the individual's religion becomes the national religion the distinction you draw between the individual and the nation evaporates. Often a secular mind will assume that the nation has no religion and therefore that because of this it is possible to talk about a tension between "individual faith" and "communal cohesion," as if the communal could never cohere via the same faith that the individual holds.

But maybe I am misreading you in some way. I think Kierkegaard does posit a form of faith that is inherently at odds with communal cohesion, but it strikes me as an idiosyncratic form of faith. I will grant that certain religions are incompatible with totalitarianism of any kind (even religious totalitarianism).

Quoting Leontiskos

That's all understood, and I appreciate the information, but it seems to me that the problem is that as soon as the individual's religion becomes the national religion the distinction you draw between the individual and the nation evaporates. Often a secular mind will assume that the nation has no religion and therefore that because of this it is possible to talk about a tension between "individual faith" and "communal cohesion," as if the communal could never cohere via the same faith that the individual holds.

But that doesn't comport with the American experience where the religious have refused compliance with the secular ethic even though they are of the dominant religion. The secular call them Christian nationalists wanting to seperate into a theocracy, yet the Christians think themselves reclaiming authority over what was supposed to be a Christian nation in the first place. The point being you can't get state oriented communal cohesion if your identity isn't oriented in the state but is oriented elsewhere. The idea that you are going to get a bunch of devout Christians to place a higher priority upon creating an equitable social community than on adhering to what they think is the word of God is what creates the problem for those whose highest priority in upon state functionality. That is where the tension is, and it's why it's seen as a battle over values.

This idea is embedded in the US system where we claim that our rights arise from our Creator. That is, the state doesn't give us the right to free speech, God does, and it's the state's duty to protect that. This idea makes the state subservient to higher ideals and supports my initial statement of: "The individual faith comes at the expense of the communal cohesion" because communal cohesion is not the stated goal of religion. Communal cohesion is a secular concept. Religion is exclusionary of the non-believer.

And btw, that quote is not my own. I think it's from Haym Soloveitchik or whatever I was reading at the time I said it.

Quoting Hanover

This idea is embedded in the US system where we claim that our rights arise from our Creator. That is, the state doesn't give us the right to free speech, God does, and it's the state's duty to protect that.

Is that in the system? Jefferson was particularly opposed to allowing a place for religion in state and federal law. He said "infidels of all denominations will be free to worship..."

There were people at the time who wanted religion in the government, but Jefferson pushed back. Rights can be rooted in Nature, which is where the originators of the idea, the Romans, placed it.

Quoting frank

Rights can be rooted in Nature, which is where the originators of the idea, the Romans, placed it.

Yeah and look what happened to them!

Quoting frank

Rights can be rooted in Nature, which is where the originators of the idea, the Romans, placed it.

Fairly certain the idea of a human society considering unpleasant things unpleasant enough to agree by vast majority they should be avoided (and those who do so willingly be punished) existed before 50 A.D.

As an aside, I kinda sorta think there's ample room to disagree with your statement. Nature seems to say: "If I'm hungry, I eat you. Your 'right' is to either kill me or become my dinner." :snicker:

Am I incorrect?

Quoting Jamal

Yeah and look what happened to them!

:lol:

Quoting Hanover

This idea is embedded in the US system where we claim that our rights arise from our Creator. That is, the state doesn't give us the right to free speech, God does, and it's the state's duty to protect that. This idea makes the state subservient to higher ideals and supports my initial statement of: "The individual faith comes at the expense of the communal cohesion" because communal cohesion is not the stated goal of religion. Communal cohesion is a secular concept. Religion is exclusionary of the non-believer.

I wouldn’t say “embedded” is the right word. Your claim about rights comes from the Declaration of Independence, not for any governmental document, in particular not from the Constitution, which protects religious freedom.

Quoting T Clark

I wouldn’t say “embedded” is the right word. Your claim about rights comes from the Declaration of Independence, not for any governmental document, in particular not from the Constitution, which protects religious freedom.

Disagree. The Enlightenment concept of natural rights explicitly mentioned in the Declaration was critical in the ratification process of the Constitution (as documented in the ratification debates of the various states) and formed the basis for the Bill of Rights. That direct reference isn't made in the Constitution to its underlying philosophical underpinnings doesn't suggest its underpinnings were amything but entirely consistent with the Declaration.

I forgot to mention this, but I ate tuna cannelloni yesterday. It had been a while since the last time I ate one of those, and it was meat cannelloni in most cases. After the lunch, I came to the conclusion that tuna cannelloni is actually better than meat. It is important to recognise this because it might be another important step for the fish food's rights to be part of pasta and not only in paella.

Reply to javi2541997

Okay, but my experience is that most restaurants that serve pasta have maximum one or two pasta dishes with meat (one being lasagne) and the rest are seafood or carbonara.

I would order more pasta in restaurants if it wasn't always prawns, clams, and salmon.

Don't get me wrong, I love the classic linguini with clams, but do I really have to go to America to get spaghetti and meatballs?

Reply to Jamal

Yes, most Italian restaurants have pasta with fish, but, surprisingly, they go unnoticed. Most of the customers ask for lasagne or pizza. I think this is wrong! Tuna with pasta is actually very tasty!

I think that the vast majority of customers see seafood in Italian food as unfriendly. You claimed that if it wasn't for prawns or clams, you would order more pasta. This is what happened to me with parents yesterday! They said that they wanted lasagne because it was made with meat, not with tuna.

Quoting Jamal

but do I really have to go to America to get spaghetti and meatballs?

Definitely not! It's a classic. The meatballs I put on the pasta are made of chicken. :yum:

Quoting javi2541997

Tuna with pasta is actually very tasty!

I agree, I like pasta with tuna and white beans. I can also recommend canned mackerel, king of canned fishes.

Quoting Jamal

I can also recommend canned mackerel, king of canned fishes.

Yummy! :up: :yum:

Quoting Wayfarer

Hey, 20k posts.

My mentions just topped 30k.

Just sayin'.

I's grown a lot of beans.

Just sayin, they are what they are, end of.

Reply to unenlightened Beans is good. I's had trouble germinating them this season. Usually grow snake beans and Blue Lake. You?

Peas are doing well.

Quoting Hanover

The Enlightenment concept of natural rights explicitly mentioned in the Declaration was critical in the ratification process of the Constitution (as documented in the ratification debates of the various states) and formed the basis for the Bill of Rights.

You're agreeing with me. The concept was natural rights, not God-given rights.

Quoting Hanover

That direct reference isn't made in the Constitution to its underlying philosophical underpinnings doesn't suggest its underpinnings were amything but entirely consistent with the Declaration.

Meh. The Bill of Rights mimics the English Bill of Rights. It doesn't come from the Declaration.

Quoting frank

The Bill of Rights mimics the English Bill of Rights. It doesn't come from the Declaration

Not what I said. I said the the Bill of Rights and the Declaration's reference to inalienable rights are manifestations from the same source, namely the concept of natural rights.

Look up the ratification debates if interested.

"Old Father's Quote#11. The truth exist, irrespective of whether we understand or accept it. (2014-11-07)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Quoting Hanover

said the the Bill of Rights and the Declaration's reference to inalienable rights are manifestations from the same source, namely the concept of natural rights.

Yes. Natural rights, not divine rights.

Reply to Banno Broad beans, and runners this year. Sometimes some french dwarf beans -purple teepee is a favourite. But This year seems to be the year of beetroot and chard for some reason. Tomatoes are disappointing - hardly enough for the neighbours. Peas are too cheap for my small plot.

Quoting frank

Yes. Natural rights, not divine rights.

Kind of hair splitting. Locke refers to the natural rights as life, liberty, and property and Jefferson in the Declaration as to the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

In either event, they are rights posited as inherent in humanity, regardless of origin. That is, they're the same if by God or whatever.

All of which are embedded in the Bill of Rights

Quoting Jamal

Okay, but my experience is that most restaurants that serve pasta have maximum one or two pasta dishes with meat (one being lasagne) and the rest are seafood or carbonara.

I was told not to choose the pasta dish because it is basically just bread with some sort of added meat or vegetable stretched out to make a meal. It's the dressed up food of paupers sold at a handsome profit. What you should choose instead is the protein with a vegetable side, avoiding being taken for a fool.

Quoting BC

It is quite difficult --maybe impossible-- for public health educators who represent the dominant white society to devise effective education programs for alienated minority people

I find this to be (almost purposely) racist. It is not impossible. They have the same minds everyone else has. Heath systems are designed within a cultural milieu, that much is true. But the idea that some cultures cannot cross a divide, particularly when they active and aggressive move into that culture is unacceptable to me. Not only this, I am, and have been, experiencing this dynamic: it is largely refusal, and nothing to do with cultural competence. If you are refusing medical care because its european in origin, or your care providers aren't your skin colour or culture, you're the issue. That's not to say you don't have the right to do so - you do. White people aren't though. I hope you see the issue.

Quoting BC

Poor people -- white, black, Indian -- whatever -- who lack education and are alienated and suffer from various deficits do poorly too, pretty much across the board.

This seems a far more reasonable take. The problem is that there is constant, and over-representative efforts and carve-outs for this type of out-reach. Almost all medical requisites are offered to minorities prior to being offered to whites (which is inherently racist, but i digress). Our healthcare system is free. When you have put billions into bridging this gap in a country where, i'm sorry, the majority culture is what it is, i have an extremely hard time laying any fault at the feet of the system (beyond normal stuff like wait times, bad doctors, understaffing etc..).

Quoting BC

Great diplomacy is required, because the affected communities generally don't have good reason to trust reps from places like "Department of Public Health".

No one does. But hte rest of us get on with it instead of being bitter, scornful and self-defeating. That's not to impugn any group - plenty of white people do this too. Mostly conspiracy theorists.

Quoting BC

That's why they need people from the community to be the right "who".

It feels like you don't see an issue with this. We may not be able to come to terms.

Quoting BC

it's a lack of trust in the dominant society, and a lack of belief in the efficacy of changing one's life -- safer sex, quit smoking, quitting street drugs, quit drinking so much. You have to believe there is a real pay-off.

It's hard to respond to this seriously, personally. IF you cannot read that final line and realise resistance is a 'you' problem, I don't know quite where to go. If you lack trust in the dominant society, that's fine. Oddly, most people lack trust in the mainstream of most fields in life. The problem I am seeing is active scorn and disproportionate responses to perceived slights. If you wanna smoke and encourage your family to smoke and dirnk and beat each other, rob people and engage in criminal activity that's fine - but the results will be hte same for everyone. We all bleed red.

Overall, i agree with your position - but I think the foundational sort of 'field of play' is something we aren't seeing the same way at all.

Quoting BC

If they don't believe that it will pay off for them, personally, what would be the point of quitting smoking, drugs, drinking, and whatever else?

If they don't believe it, it seems to me they are being wilfully ignorant. You do not need to be white to understand at least those particular issues pretty damn well. The Native community more than most. I fail to see this as anything more than the same issues as above. Though, again, I don't disagree with the basic premise.

Reply to unenlightened Oh. broad beans - yes, heaps of those, many that over-wintered, and are already in flower. "Aquadulce". Chard was odd this year, usually a staple, did not over-winter well but is picking up now. Beetroot are small but we have carrots aplenty. Mustard and Rocket, a few brassicas. Potatoes have stared well, in bags this year. Zucchini and a few different melons, still in the greenhouse for now. Some tomatoes out in the yard, but there is a small danger of another frost, so not yet.

Quoting AmadeusD

I find this to be (almost purposely) racist. It is not impossible. They have the same minds everyone else has.

It's much more about class than race. Race and class are strongly correlated in the US. Class differences are critical, especially because a lot of Americans tend to not think about class at all.

Major components of the difficulty are class differences. The vast majority of people with masters in Public Health (MPH) are in the upper 15% of the income brackets. Their life experience is that of the comfortable white middle class. There is a huge income gap between the top 15% and the bottom 15%.

The problem in health education is how much of a silo the agencies operate from. How much personal and professional interaction do they have with the particular minority groups and much lower classes? We believe that everyone has the same mindedness, but operationalizing the details of cultural difference is difficult when people are working in a cultural silo. Once MPHs get out of their silos, work goes forward much better.

Quoting Hanover

Disagree. The Enlightenment concept of natural rights explicitly mentioned in the Declaration was critical in the ratification process of the Constitution (as documented in the ratification debates of the various states) and formed the basis for the Bill of Rights. That direct reference isn't made in the Constitution to its underlying philosophical underpinnings doesn't suggest its underpinnings were amything but entirely consistent with the Declaration.

The use of the term “creator” in the Declaration doesn’t represent a statement of government principle. It’s just a fact that the United States then and now is an overwhelmingly Christian nation. What other language are they going to use?

Quoting T Clark

The use of the term “creator” in the Declaration doesn’t represent a statement of government principle. It’s just a fact that the United States then and now is an overwhelmingly Christian nation. What other language are they going to use?

Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus, wrote his own bible removing supernatural events, and was generally considered a deist.

"Inalienable rights" is a reference to natural rights. The focus on the origin of those rights, whether magically emergent from nature or the divine hand of the heavenly father, isn't of consequence so long as you hold them to exist without the hand of man.

Quoting Hanover

Yes. Natural rights, not divine rights.
— frank

Kind of hair splitting.

I don't think so. Divine right is why kings were supposed to rule. Natural rights are what people have by virtue of nature. I thought your point was that religious ideation is embedded in the US system:

Quoting Hanover

This idea is embedded in the US system where we claim that our rights arise from our Creator. That is, the state doesn't give us the right to free speech, God does, and it's the state's duty to protect that.

Quoting Hanover

In either event, they are rights posited as inherent in humanity, regardless of origin. That is, they're the same if by God or whatever.

It was fairly important to Enlightenment thinkers, and it was important to Jefferson, who wasn't a Christian.

Quoting Hanover

"Inalienable rights" is a reference to natural rights.

You’ve clearly thought about this more than I have.

Quoting Hanover

But that doesn't comport with the American experience where the religious have refused compliance with the secular ethic even though they are of the dominant religion. The secular call them Christian nationalists wanting to seperate into a theocracy, yet the Christians think themselves reclaiming authority over what was supposed to be a Christian nation in the first place. The point being you can't get state oriented communal cohesion if your identity isn't oriented in the state but is oriented elsewhere. The idea that you are going to get a bunch of devout Christians to place a higher priority upon creating an equitable social community than on adhering to what they think is the word of God is what creates the problem for those whose highest priority in upon state functionality. That is where the tension is, and it's why it's seen as a battle over values.

That's all correct, but I would say that what's at stake is a secular state religion. So it's not religious freedom of the individual over and against the state. It's the Christian religion (or the Jewish religion or the...) in contrast to the American state religion, along with all the places where they agree or disagree. The idea that the state does not represent a religion/culture/ethos is a fiction of liberalism.

This is why Muslims, when told by the U.S. government that they are free to practice their religion, are apt to reply, "What is this notion of 'religion' you speak of?" The notion of religion as a pluralistic subculture is a Western liberal invention, and one which presupposes various tenets that a religion like Islam has historically rejected (such as the tenet of separation of church and state). It is easier to see that the idea of the secular is its own religion/culture/ethos when it is confronted with a foreign religion like Islam which does not share with it as many premises as Christianity does.

Quoting Hanover

This idea is embedded in the US system where we claim that our rights arise from our Creator. That is, the state doesn't give us the right to free speech, God does, and it's the state's duty to protect that. This idea makes the state subservient to higher ideals and supports my initial statement of: "The individual faith comes at the expense of the communal cohesion" because communal cohesion is not the stated goal of religion. Communal cohesion is a secular concept. Religion is exclusionary of the non-believer.

But where are these unqualified claims coming from? Such as, "Communal cohesion is not the stated goal of religion," or, "Communal cohesion is a secular concept"? Communal cohesion is the stated goal of some religions, such as Confucianism. Even in Christianity it is a stated goal where the communal cohesion which finds its fulfillment in the eschaton is supposed to take root now in seed form. It's not as though "communal cohesion" is an inherently secular and non-religious concept.

It is true that such claims make the state subservient to higher ideals, but it is equally true that those sorts of claims contradict other claims, such as the separation of church and state (however one wants to construe that). If the state is subservient to a theological right then obviously it is privileging that theology, and is not neutral. There's nothing wrong with this, except that Reply to liberalism pretends it isn't happening.

"Old Father's Quote #12. If you keep on looking for trouble, you should not complain if you find it. (2014-11-07)" p250 [i]How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence.[/I]

Is this not a lesson to countries that start wars?

I was in my local supermarket looking for some groceries when suddenly, a box with a beautiful green tiger on it appeared in my view.

It is powdered soda. It has eight double packs. You pour water in your favourite glass, and then you add the powder. The sound of the bubbles fizzing and how the water turns grey and then transparent again is beautifully indescribable.

We (you and I) sometimes find the sublime of nature in the most random and remote things. This profoundly influenced my Wednesday.

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

"Old Father's Quote #12. If you keep on looking for trouble, you should not complain if you find it. (2014-11-07)" p250 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence.

Is this not a lesson to countries that start wars?

Who are you to those countries to presume to teach them such lessons?

Reply to baker

You have not answer my question!

However, I will pay you the courtesy of answering yours:

• As to who am I - my name is Pieter R van Wyk and I am a human being endowed with the capability of abstract thought.
• As to who I am to those countries that start wars - nothing, not even to the country that I was born in.
• As to the presumption of teaching those countries any lessons - I do not have any presumptions on teaching anybody or any country any 'lesson'!

None of the above reflects on the veracity of my statement nor on the validity of my question!

Now, who are you and what do you presume? Perhaps you will have the balls (courage, guts, backbone, moxie or fortitude) to answer this question.

What if instead of a car you had a jet-pack you put on like a backpack and fly off, encountering birds and gusts of wind that cause you to end up in outerspace looking down on the planet, wondering if there's a way to get back down there.

Reply to javi2541997

Probably some bicarbonate of soda with some oxalic acid to get the carbonating reaction going. Eno's would have been cheaper.

andrei rublev balloon scene

Quoting frank

What if instead of a car you had a jet-pack you put on like a backpack and fly off, encountering birds and gusts of wind that cause you to end up in outerspace looking down on the planet, wondering if there's a way to get back down there.

You just flip upside down and then rocket back towards earth, making sure you flip feet first to gently land instead of having your head stick like a dart into the ground like happened to my uncle who was never the same afterwards. I was like "Uncle [(that's what everyone called him, even his kids)], whyever did you lawndart into the ground and not flip over, and he said he forgetted to do that. He never talked right afterwards either.

True story.

Also, my punctuation is correct there, where there's a parenthetical in the middle of a quote you have to use parenthesis and brackets all at the same damn time.

I think.

Reply to Hanover

Quoting Hanover

where there's a parenthetical in the middle of a quote you have to use parenthesis and brackets all at the same damn time.

Yes, that’s called a crapular solipsist.

Quoting praxis

The deed precedes the meaning—only after the leap does the ground appear beneath the well-shoed foot.

Do you have a source for this Nietzsche quote?

Reply to T Clark

I was, uh, paraphrasing.

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk

What do you think of my attempt at making quotes. Yes, the following is perhaps derived from (inspired by) one of yours, or at least your essence. If that makes sense.

"Nobody knows anything, save for what they delude themselves into thinking they do."
- Young bastard's quote. Pg 1.

I trust you have a sense of humor, after all these years. :grin:

Quoting Pieter R van Wyk

...with some oxalic acid...

I don't know about adding oxalic acid to food stuff. That's what they bleach wood with to get nice white paper. It's also really good for cleaning toilets.

Speaking of food stuff. I invented a new dish the other day!*

* [hide="Reveal"]I likely did not invent a new dish[/hide]



Yeah, yeah, say what you will. Sometimes I pity the non-humble folk. Thinking they have and know so much, when in fact they live life knowing nothing of what they've lost and so could have had.

We have a simple dish here. Jasmine rice (microwaved from a pouch), and though it is hard to see, a few slices of "chipotle-style" chicken fresh sliced from a nearby supermarket, topped with hand-shredded (I just ripped the pieces) Pepper Jack cheese, and mild salsa.

It was, exquisite. No perhaps not in traditional terms or views of the word, but in a unique way that surpasses all the rest. Perhaps one day, you'll discover. Or, perhaps not. :grin:

Reply to Pieter R van Wyk

The powdered soda is cheap, actually. To be honest, I just bought it because the box is very cool. I got caught by the obscure practices of marketing, hehe. :smirk:

However, the flavour of powdered soda was good. I will probably buy another box today.

Reply to javi2541997

Are you sure it's meant for drinking? Soda powder like that is often just used for cleaning, in my experience.

Reply to Jamal

Yes, it is meant for drinking. The instructions written in the box say: pour one double pack into a 33 cl glass of water, swirl it, and then drink it straight.

Yesterday, I drank two glasses. At this moment, I'm feeling good. :eyes:

Quoting javi2541997

Yes, it is meant for drinking. The instructions written in the box say: pour one double pack into a 33 cl glass of water, swirl it, and then drink it straight.

Ok. I'm concerned for your health, that's all.

Quoting javi2541997

Yesterday, I drank two glasses. At this moment, I'm feeling good

:chin:

Quoting Jamal

Ok. I'm concerned for your health, that's all.

Oh, Alistair! You are like a big brother to me! :smile:

Don't worry, I am not drinking bleach or doing bizarre things. I promise I am behaving! :halo:

Reply to javi2541997

Who is this "Alistair" chap?

Quoting Jamal

Soda powder like that is often just used for cleaning, in my experience

Bicarbonate of soda is a leavening agent in some baked foods; it's also useful as a de-acidifier in some acidic foods to which one is adding milk; it can be used to sooth an acid stomach (heart burn); toothbrushing, cleaning, laundry, de-odorizing refrigerators (put the box in the refrigerator. Does this work? millions of people have boxes of soda in their fridges). Baking soda (bicarb) is not the same as laundry soda which is mostly borax. Do not drink borax.

Reply to javi2541997 95% of consumers report not liking the taste of bicarbonate of soda in water. Are we talking about the same thing?

Sodium bicarbonate, citric acid and saccharine, apparently.

Quoting Outlander

"Nobody knows anything, save for what they delude themselves into thinking they do."
- Young bastard's quote. Pg 1.

Isn't "Nobody knows anything ... " a tautology? My understanding is nobody <=> not any person, Perhaps: Somebody knows nothing, save for what they delude themselves into thinking they do?
Or: Anybody knows something, for some only what they delude themselves into thinking they do?

There ar some more variations to this possible ... if I am not deluding myself:lol:

Quoting Outlander

I trust you have a sense of humor, after all these years. :grin:

I trust so myself. But I must concede, sometimes it borders on the cynic, ironic or sarcastic.