I'll get Michael to write it. He's currently working on new software for the forum.
Oh wonderful! I have many ideas for the forum that could help it in its quest to spread wisdom across the galaxy. But mostly I’d want a smiling poop emoji.
I make tadpole fritters. You go down to the creek and use your shirt as a net and you get a bunch flipping around in there and then you throw them in fresh in the hot oil on the stove you've been heating up. You let them crisp up like french fries and then you carefully remove them with tongs. When they cool down just a bit, you sprinkle salt and pepper on them. While they cool just a bit more, you make yourself a mayonaise based dipping sauce.
Then what you're going to need to do is open the front door and sling them in the yard.
After that, make yourself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and enjoy that while thinking about your day fishing for tadpoles in the creek.
Reply to Jamal I would think with the large front wheel, the ratio of pedal spin to wheel turn on the roadway would make the bike easy to pedal, but it might be too slow. The small wheel on the back seems like it wouldn't give the proper stability and it would be subject to increased wear.
Overall, I find the engineering questionable, which might be why we see few of these at stores today.
What I'd like to see is one with a very small front tire and very large back tire, basically flipping the design, but instead putting a chain on the pedal to make it rear wheel drive and having a free wheel for steering. That might lead to more fact smashing. I'm not sure, but it's an idea.
Fortunately, they understood my explanation and they ended up at the station they were looking for.
Everyone is happy and an important lesson: do not let fear limit your knowledge of city maps.
The two times I've been in Europe, one of the things I enjoyed most was trying to communicate with people in my high school French and college German. My ability in those languages is much less than yours in English. You may have noticed I like to hear myself talk (or see myself write). In another language that pleasure is multiplied.
A lot of English people struggle with the rolled "rr" and even the single Spanish "r", so they pronounce pero and perro the same, and it's wrong anyway. I'm quite good at that because we roll the R's in Scotland.
One of the things I love about German is the "ich" sound, which we don't have in English, at least not here in the US. It feels good in the back of the throat, like drinking a beer with some bitterness.
Unfortunately the Amtrak train is not something I would describe as awesome or sharp, although the views along the Hudson once you're out of the city are quite picturesque.
Except the KBG is after you. You forgot about that.
Interesting experience. To be honest, I am jealous of your self confidence and that's very important to learn whatever. You didn't care about giving a try in speaking in German or French and you even enjoyed the practice. You think I have an acceptable level of English but this is not what I thought about myself this morning...
Shyness or lack of practice in this conscious knowledge? :chin:
Reply to praxis Apart from the other great things about that pizza, what I like is the generous amount of basil. Usually I get two or three leaves at best.
I know, right?! Cool thing about DIY pizza is that you can get everything just the way you like it. Though once you get into it you realize just how much there is that goes into it. Different kinds of flour and methods for making dough, different kinds of tomatoes and sauce preparation, etc etc.
Actually, I've recently started experimenting with mineral water. Minerals, and perhaps other things in NY water, affect fermentation. And the dough is over 60% water.
That's a different use of the "you think?" phrase than previoulsy discussed. Mine was the challenging "you think," as in if I said "America is the greatest country in the world," and you say, "you think?"
Your use was in the "it's obvious' usage, as in, "Trump hasn't been entirely forthright about the election results," and you'd say "you think?"
What makes this most fascinating is that in the first example, if I were at a Trump rally, the "you think?" phrase wouldn't have been challenging, but it would have stated as if it were obvious with the second usage.
Reply to Hanover Good analysis. I suspected it was a different use, but it wasn’t clear in my mind until you clarified it, thereby hitting the nail on the head and the ball out of the park.
I've invented a new pizza called the Hanoverpie. It goes like this, you make the dough, but you put lemon zest in it an maybe 1/8 teaspoon of lemon extract, perhaps some lemon juice as well, but don't fucking overdo it.
For the sauce, you boil some blueberries with a 1/2 cup of sugar until it starts weeping (my word) blueberry sauce. Stir it for a while until it's pretty thick and then strain it through a god damn sieve. Take that juicy soupy funness and spread it on your thighs, just kidding, spread it on the lemon dough like it was pizza sauce.
Then put mango slices on the top and top that with mint leaves. Yeah, I said mint leaves. Fuckers didn't see that bitch coming I betcha!
Now cook it in your fancy 5000 degree oven until nice and crisp. When your friends ask you why you have such a great big shit eating grin from ear to ear, you just tell them you just got yourself a face full of Hanoverpie.
Cool. Wood or gas? Someday when I have outdoor space and money I’d love to get one. What type of tomatoes do you use? Do you add anything else to them other than salt for Neapolitan style?
They say NY pizza tastes different because of the water
They do say this, and it is in fact true. It’s also true of the bagels. Add this to @Jamal’s list of things I take too seriously. Otherwise parking lot.
Blended with dried basil, oregano, garlic and onion powder, Salt & peppa, and some sugar.
Just started growing some tomatoes in the backyard so maybe those will be good and fresh. We're growing lemons, blueberries, and mint too so I can try Hanoverpie.
They do say this, and it is in fact true. It’s also true of the bagels. Add this to Jamal’s list of things I take too seriously. Otherwise parking lot.
A quick substitute for NYC water if you're in a pinch is just to piss in ATL water.
That's a different use of the "you think?" phrase than previoulsy discussed. Mine was the challenging "you think," as in if I said "America is the greatest country in the world," and you say, "you think?"
Your use was in the "it's obvious' usage, as in, "Trump hasn't been entirely forthright about the election results," and you'd say "you think?"
What makes this most fascinating is that in the first example, if I were at a Trump rally, the "you think?" phrase wouldn't have been challenging, but it would have stated as if it were obvious with the second usage.
Thanks Jamal, although using my Kindle I haven't found the floating quote button that is supposed to be there. I have learned how to get the same effect using square bracket tags though. I just forgot to use them in that case.
I received a letter from the Ministry of Inclusion and Social Security and it says: Dear Javier, we have checked in our data base that you are already 26 years old. We communicate to you that you will no longer be a benefited from pharmaceutical costs. From now on, you will be part of the adult regime. Go to your local social security office and update your sanitary card bla bla bla...
It is the first time I have experienced a loss in guarantees and benefits because I am becoming an "adult". :chin:
It was mostly about pizza and saving little birds. Also, I am stuck in Wrexham, quite often in the toilets of the High St. KFC. No vitriol. We accept our fate, little birds, pizza, and wanderers all.
There are no signs to show me out. They all just point to somewhere else in Wrexham. Although a gentleman who claims to be my wife insists I am actually in Coventry, which is an entire country away. But thank you for the invite! When I find my way back from metaphor to reality I might take you up on it. :halo:
There are no signs to show me out. They all just point to somewhere else in Wrexham. Although a gentleman who claims to be my wife insists I am actually in Coventry, which is an entire country away. But thank you for the invite! When I find my way back from metaphor to reality I might take you up on it. :halo:
I have a question.
Who is the woman in philosophy forum's logo??I mean is it a painting?Is she a famous person that i ignore?Is she a pic randomly taken by the internet?Is she even an actual person that exists/existed or just fictional?
And second.Who picked her? Who made the decision to make her a logo here?
I didn’t know about this flap. Revived a zombie thread to discuss.
I have a shelter in case the discussion goes nuclear lol.
I'm a bit embarrassed to say I drink Bud Lite. Lighter beers are the only ones my stomach can handle these days. I try to keep my consumption of alcohol away from politics.
"About 15% of the earth's animal biomass is ants," he thought as he watched them scurrying feverishly around the flower pot with babies in their arms, recent victims of a deluge that they very well might remember two days from now, which is probably a thousand years in ant history.
He'd left the hose in the flower pot longer than he intended, coming back to find the cataclysm which had engulfed the ant colony living in the pot. Some people speculate that ants and bees are emerging super organisms with the queen serving as their reproductive organs. Maybe someday these giant conglomerates of individual ants will become conscious and discuss with one another whether the little individual "cells" that make up their bodies have any sort of consciousness, some scoffing at the ludicrousness of the idea.
Sometimes one will come down with a tetrapod infection and have to take antibiotics to wipe out the population of destructive humans or what have you. Down in the tiny world, the humans discuss with one another if the ant colonies around them are already conscious, and suffering from the destruction random gardeners wreak upon them, others scoffing at the ludicrousness of the idea.
wonder if bagels are a thing in Europe. :chin: I suppose they're from Northern European Jews.
You've asked a question within my expertise, so let me help you out.
When the Jews were freed from Egypt, they had to leave in a hurry and were unable to get all their bread out in time. They therefore had to jam their bread on their erect and handsomely circumcised Yiddishe schlongs, thus creating the first ancient bagel.
Fun fact: the white spread was not originally cream cheese.
You mean whether to boycott or not? First things first. To start off on solid ground we need to first study the origins of boycotting. A little research has shown that it originated with a boy who once protested on a cott (antiquated spelling), hence the term boy-cott.
This is the story...
In the dark and claustrophobic alleys of a bustling city, there lived a peculiar boy named Melvin. Melvin was an introspective and idealistic soul who viewed the world through a lens of profound dissatisfaction. He harbored an unwavering belief that society was veering toward an abyss of greed and injustice. This perception gnawed at his spirit and urged him to take a stand against the oppressive forces he perceived in his midst.
Melvin lived in a small, dilapidated apartment with peeling wallpaper and a leaking ceiling. The rent for this meager dwelling was exorbitant, rendering him perpetually impoverished and beholden to a merciless landlord named Mr. Bogart. The injustices he witnessed firsthand within his living space and the city at large tormented his restless mind.
One fateful evening, as Melvin lay on his threadbare cot, tossing and turning, a thought pierced his weary consciousness. He sat upright, his eyes wide with determination. Melvin had an epiphany—an idea that was both audacious and unconventional. He would stage a protest against the exorbitant rents that tormented the lives of countless individuals like himself.
With fervor coursing through his veins, Melvin embarked on his quixotic mission. He scoured the city for the perfect location to stage his protest, eventually settling on the town square—a place where the cacophony of life mingled with the echoes of societal grievances.
As dawn broke, Melvin arrived at the town square with a simple wooden cot and small podium to stand on. He carefully positioned it amidst the bustling crowd, drawing curious glances from passersby. On the sheet, he scrawled in bold letters, "Against the Exploitation of Shelter!"
Melvin climbed onto the cot, settling himself in its narrow confines. He assumed a solemn, meditative posture, his face a mask of determined rebellion. The crowd watched in bewildered anticipation, unsure of what to make of this peculiar display.
News of Melvin's protest spread like wildfire throughout the city. Soon, journalists and photographers swarmed around him, eager to capture the essence of his unique resistance. Melvin became an enigmatic figure, his protest a symbol of dissent against an oppressive system.
Days turned into weeks, and still, Melvin remained steadfast in his symbolic act of defiance. The citizens, once bemused by his audacity, gradually began to reflect on the truth he sought to unveil. Conversations buzzed with discontent as his message took root in the hearts of the oppressed.
Yet, Melvin's protest came at a personal cost. He faced scorn and ridicule from those who dismissed his act as futile and naive. His nights grew colder, his body weakened by the elements, but his resolve only grew stronger. His protest became an act of martyrdom, transcending his individuality to represent the collective suffering of the dispossessed.
As Melvin's protest gained traction, a sense of unease permeated the city's corridors of power. The landlords grew wary, fearing the erosion of their unscrupulous control. They convened secret meetings, seeking ways to quell the swelling discontent before it threatened their status quo.
One evening, as Melvin lay on his cot, the city's ruling elite decided to take action. In the cover of night, a group of men employed by Mr. Bogart seized Melvin and his cot, carrying him away to an undisclosed location. His silent resistance had become too potent a symbol of dissent, too powerful a rallying cry for change.
Melvin was imprisoned in a stark, windowless room. The once-determined fire in his eyes flickered, replaced by a profound weariness. The oppressive walls seemed to mirror the very system he sought to defy. But even in this desolate captivity, Melvin's spirit remained unbroken. His protest had ignited a spark in the hearts of the people, and that flame could not be extinguished so easily.
Although the city remained in the clutches of exploitation and injustice, Melvin's legacy endured. His act of sleeping on a cot became a rallying cry for those who yearned for a more equitable society. The seed of discontent he planted blossomed into a movement that could not be silenced. The struggle continued, fueled by the unyielding spirit of a boy named Melvin, whose solitary act of resistance transcended the boundaries of time and place.
We deleted that as there are plenty of recent threads on this issue. The news article doesn't really merit a new discussion (not that it's not interesting).
Perhaps I'll start a thread - What is the correct ethical position on Bud Lite?
In an effort to expand their market, and without realizing that there were actually people that openly disagreed with expansive transsexual rights, they thought it a simple idea to appeal to that community in the hopes of gaining even more market share, however slight.
What they didn't realize is that the world didn't agree with them. It's the danger of living in the echo chamber.
I know this doesn't answer your question. But since you didn't specifically ask whether the boycott of Bud Lite was ethical, but you only asked the more general question of what the correct ethical position of Bud Lite was, I'll interpret that question in a way that I'd like in order to respond.
I would say that one who has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of a stock company must do that which in the best interest of that company, which may or may not include doing what is best for societal progress. I therefore ask whether the Bud Lite decision makers were ethical, which is how I choose to interpret your question, and I say they were not. They entered a fray that had nothing to do with beer consumption, never having been asked to take a position one way or the other, and decided to take a position that ran counter to their customers' positions, and that cost the company dearly. There was a loss of marketshare, a loss in stock value, and devaluation of the company they were supposed uphold.
I'd say that Bud Lite unethically handled their marketing by moralizing upon an issue unrelated to their business enterprise instead of thinking first about their company. I might think differently if Bud Lite had been forced to weigh in on this issue, but they were not.
It's akin to a pet peeve of mine and that's when those who have a mic in front of them think that because I can hear their voice, I must listen to them opine on all sorts of subjects, as if their opinion matters to me. If you are a musician, for example, I don't care about your political views. I sit before you to hear you sing, not to tell me what you would do if you were king of the world. Shut up and sing I say.
Apparently I've lead people astray. I was making one of my typical smart-ass remarks and people have taken it seriously. That being said, I agree with everything you've written here.
Your argument is not coherent. First you say that the marketers were trying to gain market share (good for shareholders), and then later say that they were moralizing on an issue (bad for shareholders).
What did they opine on? I thought a trans celeb just promoted their beer?
They presented the opinion that transsexualism was an acceptable way of life and that transsexuals should be afforded the same respect in society as others.
I'm not suggesting that opinion isn't laudable, but I am suggesting that it is an opinion that need not have been expressed, and it is not one that promotes the well being of the brand.
To take a counter example, if the Proud Boys had been used to promote the beer, that elevation of a racist organization for the sale of beer would be properly interpreted as an expression of opinion by Bud Lite that racism is acceptable.
I don't suggest the opposite is acceptable either, which is to suggest that an organization should be openly immoral by condemning transsexuals or openly promoting racism to sell their product. They should stick to selling their product and staying away from such conflicts. This is why Bud Lite finds itself in an impossible situation. They cannot seperate themselves from transsexuals without being transphobic, but they are forced now to stay the course of a bad decision.
If they were unable to get outside their own echo chamber and were so insulated from the greater world at large that they truly did not know that their primary customer base held such opposing views, then that would reduce their immorality. How much that was so and how much was someone promoting an agenda, I don't know. You'd think some market research study should have preceeded the rollout of the marketing plan.
I do think though that they should have exercised extreme prudence given the stakes. But I do think it's a fair defense presented by you that if this was truly the result of extreme incompetence that was unmotivated by other objectives, then you don't have an ethical problem, just a competency one, which still remains problematic to me given my general objections to using one's spotlight to present opinions no one ever asked for.
Reply to Hanover I agree that Bud Lite isn't really beer, but why is it a leading brand?
What's wrong with ordinary Budweiser or Miller or... Blatz? (Blatz is real beer, it just doesn't taste very good, regular or otherwise.) I prefer Stella Artois; the Stella Artois brewer is one of the oldest corporations on earth -- 657 years. It's been perfect beer for at least the last 10 years.
Back in the 1970s, Coors ran into flack with the gay community who believed the company was anti-gay. Labor said Coors was anti-union, too. Probably both were true. A boycott was organized -- easy to support in most of the country because Coors (brewed in Denver) wasn't sold everywhere at that time. Eventually Coors performed the necessary symbolic full face grovel and resolved the gay issue, Not sure whether they became more union friendly.
Olympia was another brand that went national in the 1970s. It lacked body. Too watery. Bland.
The struggle continued, fueled by the unyielding spirit of a boy named Melvin, whose solitary act of resistance transcended the boundaries of time and place.
I think this needs to be in Wikipedia. After all, life is precious.
Doesn't really seem worthy of ethical consideration. Someone different got to show themselves in a positive light, and some people hate that. But my guess is Anheuser Busch will be able to weather the negativity.
According to the CDC, in 2021, the life expectancy in the U.S. for women was 79.1 years, and for men, 73.2 years, a difference of almost 6 years, the largest gap in more than a quarter century... In fact, the risk of death at every age, infancy, childhood, adolescence, middle age, and old age is higher for males than females. More men than women die of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, suicide, COVID-19, and car accidents.
I agree that Bud Lite isn't really beer, but why is it a lading brand?
Most Bud Lite is consumed in red solo cups either at baseball games or frat parties, and it has the abililty to pick up the plastic taste from the cup perfectly. Sometimes I'll enjoy a Bud Lite that way to remind me of you my younger days, standing by the keg, pumping that little pump thing, and enjoying me a cold one.
Only with this brutal joke evaluation honesty will I be able to up to my game. Thank you so much for this.
This saved me from embarrassing myself with my next set of jokes, which was going to include a description of an act of intercourse with a bagel strategically placed so as to offer a poppy seed coated cushion between the lustful partners. I will forego that joke as it too would be neither funny nor clever, my two criteria for success.
Again, thank you so much for this, with an emphasis on the "so."
I think this Miley Cyrus video rocks. I think I love her as well, but she looks like she probably smells of sweat and weed whereas I typically prefer lavender scents. Other than that, did you guys know that she can really sing?
Thanks for sharing my obsession with Rehoboth Beach. This would normally a big weekend there, but it's been very cool—60s. It's only supposed to get into the 60s all weekend. A beach at 60 degrees is a pretty cold place.
I played little league at Rehoboth Church when I was a kid. I played left field, which is where they let the free thinkers play, unencumbered by the mundane problems that might be happening closer to where things were actually happening.
I just sent my wife a picture of me with a pen in my mouth and I mentioned I had a pen in my mouth, and I realized the significance of the space in the sentence "A pen is in my mouth."
I thought I'd warn you guys about this thing I just realized.
The following piece of gossip may contain nuts. If you are a nut and do not wish to be contained, you are advised to stop reading here.
My daughter is visiting from Dow Nunder with her bloke who hails from Brazil, and they just offered me a can of Heineken (est. 1873) Made with pure malt, it says, but I suspect it has a yeast infection.
Reply to Jamal I have never been at Rehoboth Beach. I was at Frontenac Methodist Camp on Lake Pepin (Mississippi River) in the 1970s. The camp was old and run down, sort of like the Methodist Church itself. The river was dirtier then than it is now, and swimming in it still makes one a bit squeamish, being the recipient of the big Metro Sewage Treatment plant outfall.
I spent 8 heavenly months living in the Cape Cod National Seashore in 1968-69. This was while the national park was being built, so almost nobody was there.
[b]Bear helps itself to 60 cupcakes from Connecticut bakery, scares employees
today[/b]
AVON, Conn. (AP) — A hungry black bear barged into the garage of a Connecticut bakery, scared several employees and helped itself to 60 cupcakes before ambling away.
Black bear breaks into vehicle, guzzles 69 cans of pop
A woman on British Columbia's Sunshine Coast awoke to a sticky situation last Thursday when she found a bear with a sweet tooth had broken into her car and crushed dozens of cans of soda she had left there overnight. Sharon Rosel said she was awakened by her dog around 3 a.m. PT Thursday and looked outside to see a black bear surrounded by shattered glass from her car window.
"He was drinking massive amounts of soda," said Rosel.
Coincidence? Is there danger of an ursine diabetes outbreak?
have never been at Rehoboth Beach. I was at Frontenac Methodist Camp on Lake Pepin (Mississippi River) in the 1970s. The camp was old and run down, sort of like the Methodist Church itself. The river was dirtier then than it is now, and swimming in it still makes one a bit squeamish, being the recipient of the big Metro Sewage Treatment plant outfall.
Not far from Rehoboth church was a small lake they stocked with catfish and carp and you'd pay a few dollars to fish there. They once loaded these massive channel catfish in there off a truck and the fish were still stunned and not swimming yet, so I tried to snag one with my hook. The lady came out there and yelled at me.
They sold snacks there, and that's when I got my first sweet taste of Mountsin Dew, which was before the meth heads made that drink cool.
I never caught a carp, but once one the size of a shark bit the line when my brother wasn't paying attention and swam off with his fishing pole. I think at night, when no one was around, that carp would fish for catfish with that pole. But I could be wrong.
My story about Rehoboth is better than yours I think. It has a certain down home feel to it, sort of like I'm Huck Finn or some other character from another book I was supposed to read but didn't.
Would you mind giving the warnings at the beginning of your posts in future?
Can I just have a standing warning that is never withdrawn so as to not require the formality of me reciting those words at the beginning of every post?
I'll similarly give you a standing objection, so you don't have to constantly object, and we'll just stipulate that that objection isn't waived by you.
This will make the transcript cleaner and all issues for appeal will be preserved.
My story about Rehoboth is better than yours I think.
Catfish vs. sewage? Toss-up.
There were very big catfish in the Chernobyl cooling ponds before the place blew up; they are still there. Some of them are up to 200 lbs in weight. Catfish live up to 80 years. Given the opportunity, a big catfish would eat you.
And, no doubt, they want to eat you -- tender, succulent, learn´d, randy, southern fried.
The catfish that snatches you off the dock might take your clothes and drive home in your car, and tell weird jokes in this esteemed echo-chamber. Or, maybe that has already happened?
I just came from Mercadona. I saw in the breads section a new type, "Cruapan": Croissant + bread in the same slice. It smells really nice and let's give it a try with Andalucían olive oil.
Killer whales wreck boat in latest attack off Spain
MADRID, May 25 (Reuters) - Killer whales severely damaged a sailing boat off the coast of southern Spain, the local maritime rescue service said on Thursday, adding to dozens of orca attacks on vessels recorded so far this year on Spanish and Portuguese coasts.
The article does not indicate whether the whales took cupcakes, orange soda, or other similar food items.
Killer whales wreck boat in latest attack off Spain
Barbate, Cádiz...
When I read the headline that's the location I thought about. Fantastic and gorgeous port city. The Japanese companies pay a lot of money to the Spanish government to buy tuna and seafood there.
Reply to T Clark The Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert is good drag comedy.
Will Ron Himself attend? If he does, he'll probably need to be in a straitjacket and glued to his seat, lest he bolt or go crazy and attack the screen,
Lou Reed's Take a Walk on the Wild Side can play as background before the previews.
… Holly came from Miami, F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
… She says, "Hey, babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
Said, "Hey, honey
Take a walk on the wild side"
… Candy came from out on the Island
In the back room she was everybody's darling
But she never lost her head
Even when she was giving head
… She says, "Hey, babe...
Since Ronny will be all tied up anyway, might as well screen PINK FLAMINGOES for the finale. It'll blow his head off (assuming he doesn't secretly adore Divine--not to be ruled out).
I also thought of "Boys Don't Cry," but decided I only want to include movies that would generally be considered inoffensive in order to underline the irony and hypocrisy of DeSantis's actions.
I decided to ask this in the shoutbox, rather than put it in an OP thread format, but I would be willing to put in a thread if there was enough interest in discussing it.
Do YOU believe in the Catholic trinity?
If so, then you believe that god and Jesus Christ were the same entity.
I don't think the 3rd state of 'spirit,' matters much to my main question, unless a Catholic/theist/theologian/generalist thinker, has a counterpoint to suggest why it does.
Jesus/god is posited as an eternal, immortal, but, this immortal magicked itself into a mortal, and existed as a male human, for around 30+ Earth time years.
He got crucified/murdered/blood sacrificed, and experienced death as a human experiences death, well, not quite, as humans don't 'resurrect,' but let's say this immortal did die like a man dies.
So during the time after its death, and before it's resurrection, this immortal, cosplaying a human called Jesus, was dead, so, GOD WAS DEAD.
So during this time, do Catholics accept that the universe had no god? or do Catholics think that this immortal was only playing dead? And, if that's true then under what logic do they consider this fake death, a great sacrifice in favour of humans?
Reply to universeness That’s pure theology, so it probably wouldn’t make a good OP. I suspect that Trinitarian Christians have several elaborate and subtle answers—and my guess is you’re misunderstanding the Trinity—so I think you’ll either have to ask them directly on the appropriate forums, or do some research.
Reply to Jamal
I have performed some research on the Catholic trinity, and I have asked this question of many Catholics in the past, including even some priests, nuns etc. I am aware of a range of responses (all of them pretty bad.) I was merely interested in getting some responses from the 'TPF intelligencia/illuminati/generalist thinkers/eccentric thinkers, on the question. I like to try to broaden my database of responses to such questions. It's always good to get a response or two which I have not heard before.
But I did suspect that it did not have a strong enough 'philosophical tilt,' to it, so I thought I would toss it in the shoutbox waters to see if it produced any ripples of interest.
Reply to Hanover
Yeah, I have had some interesting chats with Catholics who believe in purgatory and a 'time delay' between your death, your judgement, your presence at your judgement, etc.
Is there an ethereal 'time of awareness' to 'process' you to heaven/hell/oblivion (for those theists who don't accept hell exists)? A priest told me once that he personally believed that the fact that Jesus was dead for 3 days MUST have some importance to the time for a human to die, be judged and appear in heaven/hell but he imagined it as a 'dreamscape, painless,' type experience.
I asked him what he thought god/jesus was experiencing during his 3 days of being dead.
His response was almost akin to an angry 'how the fuck should I know!' NOT HIS WORDS at the time, but perhaps his response to the mockery he assumed I was employing, when I was asking him such questions.
Reply to T Clark
I understand your dig and there is some truth to it and justification for it, but that does not undermine the validity of the theistic critiques I present imo.
If so, then you believe that god and Jesus Christ were the same entity
I don’t know much about Christian theology but this doesn’t look right. Jesus is God in human form, and not God tout court. When Jesus died, God as such did not die, but God as mortal human did.
Edit: “God in human form” being, I take it, the meaning of “son of God”.
According to Catholic theology, the Trinity is the belief that there is one God who exists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are said to be consubstantial, meaning they share the same divine essence.
Regarding your specific questions:
1. Jesus and God being the same entity: According to Catholic belief, Jesus is considered the Son of God, who is fully divine. Catholics believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and that he is both fully God and fully human.
2. The death of Jesus and its implications: Catholics believe that Jesus willingly gave up his life on the cross as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of humanity's sins. According to Catholic teaching, Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection are central to the redemption and salvation of humanity. They believe that although Jesus experienced physical death, his divine nature was not extinguished or ceased to exist during that time. Rather, they believe that Jesus conquered death through his resurrection, demonstrating his power over sin and death.
3. The belief in God's presence during Jesus' death: Catholics believe that even during Jesus' physical death, God, being a Trinity, was still present. The divine nature of Jesus, being fully God, remained united with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they believe that God did not cease to exist or abandon the universe during that time.
The concept of the Trinity and the understanding of Jesus' death and resurrection involve complex theological ideas. Different Christian denominations may have variations in their interpretations and beliefs, but the above explanation represents the general Catholic understanding.
You seem to have some deep seated grudge towards Catholics or Catholicism.
A word is a word and a name is a name. Absent of closed secrecy, any man, or even animal, could identify under such a title. Kind of like how if you had a mortal grudge against a man named "Tom", you'd recollect the same feelings, emotions, and prejudices upon greeting a - completely unrelated - man of the same name. If not for a brief moment. The conscious can be overridden. The subconscious, not so much.
God as such did not die, but God as mortal human did.
Yes, that or similar, is a response given by some, to which I ask about god then as an entity that can manifest as a 'part,' but a partially disconnected part. Quoting Jamal
Jesus is God in human form,
This cannot be true, unless you include the condition that Jesus is OF god or is PART OF god but not FULLY IS god. Normally, most Catholics will head for the only boring escape route they can at that point.
'You are trying to understand god using human thought, you will never succeed!!!' :roll:
Catholics believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and that he is both fully God and fully human.
Yes, that is indeed part of the somewhat contradictory claim. The trinity is presented as 'one' as in of the same entity, but it has a heaven based, Earth based and spiritual existence/presence. BUT nothing I have read about the trinity suggests that what one part experiences, the other parts do not, as if that is not true, then what was the sacrifice? If god felt no pain or did not experience actual death as a man does then wtf did it sacrifice, it did not lose itself, as its own son, did it? what did it lose for those 3 days? what function was it unable to perform for 3 days?
The death of Jesus and its implications: Catholics believe that Jesus willingly gave up his life on the cross as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of humanity's sins. According to Catholic teaching, Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection are central to the redemption and salvation of humanity. They believe that although Jesus experienced physical death, his divine nature was not extinguished or ceased to exist during that time. Rather, they believe that Jesus conquered death through his resurrection, demonstrating his power over sin and death.
His 'divine nature' remained stored in the holy ghost was one claim I was offered.
I asked what was meant by 'stored,' and compared it with Jesus being switched off and on again.
I find the words 'central to the redemption and salvation of humanity,' very strong indeed and as I drill down further into this 'blood sacrifice,' it seems to me, a lesser sacrifice than humans who have died for others, without believing or knowing they would be resurrected. Christians accept, that Jesus knew he would be resurrected, so where is the sacrifice? If you have that knowledge?
The belief in God's presence during Jesus' death: Catholics believe that even during Jesus' physical death, God, being a Trinity, was still present. The divine nature of Jesus, being fully God, remained united with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they believe that God did not cease to exist or abandon the universe during that time.
So how do you feel about that Mr Hanover? As a theist, do you feel cheated? Is it not true that this god DID NOT die as a man dies, as it OWNED resurrection, and was immortal and eternal so made NO sacrifice whatsoever! The 'central tenet of the blood sacrifice, resurrection and via this act, the salvation of humans does not hold up,' are you still 100% convinced, with your theistic hat on, that this blood sacrifice was god actually experiencing REAL human death? Do you think what jesus went through on the cross and what Spartacus went through on the cross were comparable? if Spartacus had no knowledge of hope of resurrection?
universeness is very ecumenical. He hates all religion.
Thank you Mr Clark, and you are correct in that I am ecumenical in my position that all religions are fundamentally pernicious and I hate all religions but please don't think that it follows that I hate all religious or theistic people. Absafragginlootly NOT!
I know you did not suggest that I did hate all religious or theistic people, but I want to make the very important point, that I don't, anyway, for anyone reading the shoutbox.
Just know that it’s possible to have been raised within a religion, to have left it completely, and to not have hatred towards religion. There is a more complex, nuanced middle path. I hope you find it one day.
Reply to Noble Dust
Does the path you mention, involve appeasement toward the very pernicious outcomes of a great deal of religious practice and religious messaging?
I plant my protest flag in the camp of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dillahunty, Harris, Dennett and many many others, Aron Ra, Shannon Q, Forrest Valkai, Jimmy Snow, Gutsick Gibbon(Erika), Dave Warnock, Derek Lambert, etc, etc. I follow a similar path to them, so thanks but no thanks for your advice to seek your more nuanced 'middle' no man's land/path.
Reply to Hanover Gay theme, not trans. See, that's the problem of grouping gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, and queer all together. They don't all belong in the same category. Two possibly bisexual isolated sheep herders discovering mutual attraction isn't the same thing as a 14 or 41 year old deciding to change genders.
Reply to Noble Dust
I use the term appeasement in it's traditional context. To placate others and accommodate their recent/historical bad behaviour, in the (usually forlorn)hope of containing it for the present, until you feel strong enough, or able enough, to confront it fully or perhaps even better, not have to ever confront it because the potential damage to your own world might be too much to deal with.
There are myriad reasons why 'people practice and message the way they do.'
I think religious people are 'religious' mainly due to primal fear.
I think the reasons why religious organisations practice and message the way they do is crystal clear, well understood and quite easy to comprehend.
You must have understood that quite well, if you are no longer a theist.
At least read Annie Proulx's short story, Brokeback Mountain. No drag in it, but it's unsettling in that the two men are cowboys (well, sheep herders--not the same thing but close enough for academic work) and they are supposed to be archetypal MEN, out there in cryptofascistland where you either fuck it or shoot it.
The story is both sweet (not saccharine) and sad. Bittersweet? Hmm, not quite the right word. Maybe more tragic.
They wouldn't be proper Roman Catholics, but there are theologians who have posited that God became Jesus, as in the Moravian Hymn, "God lies in a manger, in flesh now appearing" and that when God became Jesus Heaven was emptied. The idea is that God poured himself out, into his creation, finally. (and since Jesus/God resurrected... God didn't disappear. Then there's the Holy Ghost, etc., etc., etc.
Universeness, the Trinity was a term cooked up by Tertullian a couple of centuries later Jesus.
The words 'the Trinity' are the English equivalent of the Latin word Trinitas, which was coined by the early Christian writer Tertullian. The word, which, etymologically, means something like 'the tripleness', is used to refer collectively to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
There was God first (before Jesus), then there was the son. After Jesus there was the Holy Ghost. In the Gospels (written before Tertullian), "Neither the word “Trinity” nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”.
So, why did theologians (not the rank and file) in the early church (in centuries following Jesus) find a concept like "triune God" useful? My rough understanding is that early 'orthodox' theologians were trying to keep a lid on all of the various attractive heresies that swirled around in the early church. If you think Christian theology is screwy now, try the second-fourth century.
More centuries later, after 'orthodox' theology had won the field, the church was sort of stuck with this inexplicable trinitarian doctrine and has, in my humble opinion, been vainly struggling to explain it ever since. Some Christians balked. Unitarian theology jelled in the 1500s among Calvinists. The Unitarians, quite sensibly, decided to go with the one person approach and dump the trinity.
I understand you think it's all baloney, and that's fine. But as a smart atheist, you understand that the trinity, like a lot of other baffling stuff (purgatory, for instance) accreted over many centuries.
I use the term appeasement in it's traditional context.
To placate others and accommodate their recent/historical bad behaviour, in the (usually forlorn) hope of containing it for the present, until you feel strong enough, or able enough, to confront it fully or perhaps even better, not have to ever confront it because the potential damage to your own world might be too much to deal with.
As an atheist myself, I don't find the behavior of believers (pick a religion, any religion) any more appalling than the behavior of non-believers. Believers may be more hypocritical than non-believers, but that's just frosting on the frequently sordid business of human behavior.
I didn't abandon Christian faith because of the horrible things it had done to people. I don't think I was damaged much by it, either. Rather, I found its mysteries unacceptable. At some point, I decided that I lived in an entirely explainable knowable cosmos. A god to cover all of the inexplicable stuff wasn't necessary or helpful but was, to me, a stumbling block. It would have been helpful if this insight had arrived earlier than it did, but that's life.
I think religious people are 'religious' mainly due to primal fear.
I don't think so. Most believers (pick a religion, any religion) are believers because they were born into belief. There are a few who stumbled into belief; there are many who exchanged one set of religious beliefs for another. My guess is that very few deliberate non-believers in religion have ever been converted to belief--in any given religious system.
Rather than "primal" fear, there is "learned fear" and I can't think of any religious system that doesn't teach fear for purposes of customer loyalty and behavior management.
Rather than "primal" fear, there is "learned fear" and I can't think of any religious system that doesn't teach fear for purposes of customer loyalty and behavior management.
This is bullshit! This is a cliché that's been perpetuated by people who are lazy to think. One reason people continue to believe or choose to believe in god is humility. I'm not talking about hypocrites -- this is a topic for another day. Christianity is no longer the cruel entity it once were (whose church leaders were cruel themselves). People today do not stay a member of a church because of fear -- but pressure from their own family or friends, for example. But for those whose faith is true, it's humility.
At least read Annie Proulx's short story, Brokeback Mountain. No drag in it, but it's unsettling in that the two men are cowboys (well, sheep herders--not the same thing but close enough for academic work) and they are supposed to be archetypal MEN, out there in cryptofascistland where you either fuck it or shoot it.
I deeply resent that my smirky little poke at Ronnie D has been turned into a substantive discussion.
I think we can speak of what our personal reasons are for accepting religion, but we can't project it upon others, meaning that fear or humility may be some's motivation, but not all.
The concepts of fear of eternal consequences and of humility are very Christian notions, but not something universally central to religion, so they come off as very foreign if you're not of that tradition.
The concepts of fear of eternal consequences and of humility are very Christian notions, but not something universally central to religion, so they come off as very foreign if you're not of that tradition.
I'm talking about Christianity. I want to make that clear. BC said:
Universeness, the Trinity was a term cooked up by Tertullian a couple of centuries later Jesus.
The words 'the Trinity' are the English equivalent of the Latin word Trinitas, which was coined by the early Christian writer Tertullian. The word, which, etymologically, means something like 'the tripleness', is used to refer collectively to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The origin of the concepts involved, go way back to times well before the Romans, imo.
Even the Sumerians had the trinity in the sense of '3', as in the gods themselves (An, the god of the heavens, Enlil, the god of wind and storm,AnKi Enki, the god of water and human culture)
Then they had their 'superhero' creations (equivalent of Christian angels and devils), such as Gilgamesh and Enkidu etc. And then humans! Time itself was conceptualised as a triune! Past, present, future.
Even the old tribal civilisations in the Levant, such as Israel and Judea had trinity style concepts such as from wiki:: Jewish background
[i]The Father
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, God is figuratively called Israel's Father at times, and Husband or Lover at other times, using sexual and familial terms to analogically describe God's love for Israel (God's love for Israel is like a father's love for his son, a husband's love for his wife, or a lover for his beloved).
Son of God
Based on the analogy of divine fatherhood, the "son of God" in Judaism is an analogy for the people of Israel ("my son Israel") and the angels ("sons of God"), because they are holy like, yet distinct from and created by, the Holy One of Israel. God does not have a son, or equals, or parts – in actuality.
Holy Spirit
Medieval rabbis identified the Holy Spirit as the Shekhinah, which is the living throne, or presence, or breath of God, distinct from – and created – by God.[/i]
There is also the idea of moving from the polytheistic model to the monotheistic model. Yahweh(jehovah) was part of a pantheon of gods. But the polytheistic model had a triune existence. A heavenly/mount Olympus/Valhalla type existence, a supernatural/spiritual/polymorphic/shapeshifter existence and they could also appear or become mortals. This maps onto the catholic trinity.
Father, son and ghost is polytheistic in concept but the trinity tries to (very clumsily imo,) pass them off as being a monotheistic entity. Again from wiki:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit.?'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature (homoousion) As the Fourth Lateran Council declared, it is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. In this context, one essence/nature defines what God is, while the three persons define who God is. This expresses at once their distinction and their indissoluble unity. Thus, the entire process of creation and grace is viewed as a single shared action of the three divine persons, in which each person manifests the attributes unique to them in the Trinity, thereby proving that everything comes "from the Father," "through the Son," and "in the Holy Spirit."
You can almost feel the typographical traditions and verbal descriptions of storytelling and fables, being handed down from ancient human generations to today's generation. Lies, lies, lies!
More centuries later, after 'orthodox' theology had won the field, the church was sort of stuck with this inexplicable trinitarian doctrine and has, in my humble opinion, been vainly struggling to explain it ever since. Some Christians balked. Unitarian theology jelled in the 1500s among Calvinists. The Unitarians, quite sensibly, decided to go with the one person approach and dump the trinity.
I understand you think it's all baloney, and that's fine. But as a smart atheist, you understand that the trinity, like a lot of other baffling stuff (purgatory, for instance) accreted over many centuries.
Yeah but how much longer BC? It's been 2023 years! The debunking and deconstructing is progressing at a decent rate in most Western nations with a better standard of living for most folks. BUT look at what the evanhellicals are managing to achieve in countries with a much poorer and less educated general population! Does such not anger you?
Additional: I forgot to include this logically fallacious diagram called the shield of the trinity:
Their own mortality and the way in which their death can happen, without a superhero god to protect them and continue them forever. This fear and need for a protector, continues, no matter how many times it is exemplified, to everyone who will look at the evidence, that anyone can die or be killed anytime in many horrific ways, no matter who you are, what you believe in and how many times you pray for intercession from a divinely hidden, non-existent deity. The TRUTH is that the best protection available is actually each other, and our scientific ingenuity!
Reply to universeness I'm not sure why you'd be looking for reason in a religious model. The Trinity, as any Jesuit will tell you, is 'a mystery'. And yeah - I know what atheists think of this, so no need to rehash it. :wink:
Isn't there a thread here on the Trinity here we can explore this on? Maybe you could start a thread on the inadequate philosophical ideas of religion so we can hemorrhage our hatreds of theism there, away from the nice folk of Tolerance USA?
So how do you feel about that Mr Hanover? As a theist, do you feel cheated? Is it not true that this god DID NOT die as a man dies, as it OWNED resurrection, and was immortal and eternal so made NO sacrifice whatsoever!
Mr Hanover is Jewish so I doubt he feels ripped off.
The sacrifice has never made much sense. In a similar vein, it's hard to understand Matthew 4:1-11. Here Jesus is tempted by Satan, who offers Jesus all the kingdoms and riches of the world - “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” Pretty stupid temptation if Jesus is God, who created all things. What's this god supposed to do with some buildings and loot? Or, is Jesus just a guy and his 'son of God' title an honorarium? If so, the temptation makes more sense. Or, does none of it remotely matter? I'm in this camp.
As an atheist myself, I don't find the behavior of believers (pick a religion, any religion) any more appalling than the behavior of non-believers. Believers may be more hypocritical than non-believers, but that's just frosting on the frequently sordid business of human behavior.
I fully agree, I have met atheists who are absolutely horrible human beings, for a myriad of reasons AND I have met many theists who are really really good people. That does not change what is true about the origin story of the human species.
I didn't abandon Christian faith because of the horrible things it had done to people. I don't think I was damaged much by it, either. Rather, I found its mysteries unacceptable. At some point, I decided that I lived in an entirely explainable knowable cosmos. A god to cover all of the inexplicable stuff wasn't necessary or helpful but was, to me, a stumbling block. It would have been helpful if this insight had arrived earlier than it did, but that's life.
That all sounds good enough to me sir! You landed well!
I don't think so. Most believers (pick a religion, any religion) are believers because they were born into belief. There are a few who stumbled into belief; there are many who exchanged one set of religious beliefs for another. My guess is that very few deliberate non-believers in religion have ever been converted to belief--in any given religious system.
Rather than "primal" fear, there is "learned fear" and I can't think of any religious system that doesn't teach fear for purposes of customer loyalty and behavior management.
We part here somewhat. Those you describe here, were mostly terrified and threatened into believing in some familial religion imposed on them.
You should listen to some of the online familial stories of those who have fully deconstructed from the religion they were indoctrinated in, as innocent children or those who are trying to under massive, very damaging familial pressures. Even some folks here on TPF have posted descriptions that sound absolutely horrendous to me.
Learned fear is built on primal fear!
This for me is the 'cowering before god' concept, in the forlorn hope of gaining it's favour.
I type forlorn, as I (as you would expect,) see no evidence that such an authority exists.
It's like a dog whimpering before it's master, not out of love, but out of primal fear.
A jungle survival instinct, to be humble and even penitent towards the alpha male.
As a human I don't ask/expect/demand any other human to humble themselves before me.
We should all measure each other via the concept of the golden rule, imo.
This does not mean I would accept/forgive criminal behaviour in any blanket fashion.
Isn't there a thread here on the Trinity here we can explore this on?
I was going to post a thread on the catholic trinity but I reckoned 'we arra mods' would have dumped it in the lounge or deleted it and I think I was correct as @Jamal's post did kinda confirm.
I don't want to mar the more relaxed traditions of the shoutbox, by posting too many responses to the responses to my earlier question regarding the trinity. I have had a 'respectable response' and I am happy to (as we say in Glesga,) 'shut ma geggy,' on the issue, for now anyway.
If there are many other responses that I feel compelled to respond to, then I will try not to but perhaps a mod at that point, will decide to push the discussion onto a thread.
If it's a lounge thread then ........ ok but :grimace:
It's the price to pay so that reasonable folks like Tom don't get too Stormy!
I type forlorn, as I (as you would expect,) see no evidence that such an authority exists.
It's like a dog whimpering before it's master, not out of love, but out of primal fear.
A jungle survival instinct, to be humble and even penitent towards the alpha male.
As a human I don't ask/expect/demand any other human to humble themselves before me.
Their own mortality and the way in which their death can happen, without a superhero god to protect them and continue them forever
You can believe in an uncorruptable soul without a belief in God.
Anyhow, as always, you're stuck with this view that all religions are stuck in a focus of other worlds. That's just not the case. Ask a Jewish day school student what happens in the next world and what its purpose is, and they'll give you a blank stare. Ask if it's OK to eat catfish, and they'll ask if you're crazy, as catfish have no gills or scales.
It's about bringing heaven to earth. And I speak metaphorically, as I describe no physical, tangible heaven. If this sounds like I'm trying to change your mind, I'm not. I couldn't care any less about your soul. I'm just pointing out that your criticisms are simplistic and applicable only to those belief systems you think exist.
This is bullshit! This is a cliché that's been perpetuated by people who are lazy to think.
For Christ's sake, calm down. You are reading too much into my comment. But, just so you know, there still are religious (Christian) people who teach their children fear by frequent resorts to images of hellfire and damnation.
Fear is a normal, and handy, emotion; some application of mild fear is central to developing a sense of right and wrong -- morality -- and a moderate level of obedience in children. The level of fear I am referencing has nothing to do with abuse, terror, or life-long neurosis.
Ask if it's OK to eat catfish, and they'll ask if you're crazy, as catfish have no gills or scales
Were I to become a Jew, I would not mind being deprived of catfish. Fine by me. Shellfish, on the other hand, I would regret. Screw octopus, but I'd miss shrimp.
Agreed. That's something you can't get from a Kindle - that feeling of hoarding a pile of gold. My precious. Looking at the book listing on my computer isn't the same.
Reply to T Clark I used to have 3 bookcases full of books which I loved. When tablets became available, I discovered that reading on a screen was far easier--for me--than reading (frequently too small) print on paper. It was a more effective reading experience, too--again for me. I also liked that I could quickly and easily look up words, pictures, concepts, and places without having to set the book down and turn to the computer, and then back to the book.
I now have a lot of books on my iPad and no, a black slab doesn't make a compelling photo. Still, a book is a book whether it's delivered digitally or as a bundle of paper.
My dad has an entire room, a library I guess, in the basement of my parents house. For context they're very squarely middle class, so this is not some elaborate library in a Victorian mansion or some such. His collection is roughly the size of T Clark's in the photo. Discovering that room was pure magic as a child.
My dad has an entire room, a library I guess, in the basement of my parents house. For context they're very squarely middle class, so this is not some elaborate library in a Victorian mansion or some such. His collection is roughly the size of T Clark's in the photo. Discovering that room was pure magic as a child.
I grew up in a small town in Delaware. I remember going to New York City with my mother when I was a kid. She took me to the Doubleday Bookstore. This was before Barnes & Noble and Borders. I couldn't believe there were so many books in one place. She only let me buy one. Yes - magic.
Reply to T Clark You would have been vastly more shocked if she had taken you to the New York Public Library. As a future civil engineer, you would also have been thrilled knowing that the NYPL ws built on top of the 20 million gallon Croton reservoir (minus the water). Some of the Croton structure is visible in a lower level of the library, down near the unpaid fines dungeons.
It was not the 'media center' that libraries have since become. It was just books and a few magazines. It had a distinct fragrance. A very old woman was the librarian. One evening I was reading a magazine article, describing "rabelaisian scenes behind the igloo involving sled dogs and men moving their bowels" and doubled up with laughter (quietly, of course). 60 years later, it's still funny.
The original NYPL is a beautiful building, but I was surprised to find the Detroit library to be even more beautiful. Philly has a good one too.
The library at Kent State University where I went to school was pretty amazing. Ugly, but about 12 stories and fairly exhaustive. The 9th floor was my favorite place to study; the further the table was buried in the stacks the better.
The library a Kent State University where I went to school was pretty amazing. Ugly, but about 12 stories and fairly exhaustive. The 9th floor was my favorite place to study; the further the table was buried in the stacks the better.
Wow! My kind of building. The building I work in has an amazing 270 degree view, but soul-less.
Reply to Noble Dust The newer Wilson Library at the U of MN is a big not lovely brick of a building, 6 stories, no separate stacks. The older beaux arts-style Walter Library had a core of 15 layers of steel stacks. The big reading rooms are appointed with marble pillars at the entrances, very high ceilings, and such. The main lobby and stairwells are more marble and rich plaster and paint work.
The tore out the stack core 20 years ago, and restored the rest of the library to its earlier glory. I always liked the stacks (which for a long time were closed--books had to be requested) but they were deemed a serious fire hazard -- it being very difficult to extinguish fires in that sort of building,
Wilson library was big enough to hold its own collection plus the large engineering and science collection of Walter.
They built an underground cavern to hold a large state-wide book repository, above which is an archival library,
Interesting aside: the cavern is located below and near to old leaking tanks of coal gas residue. Up until the late 40s/50s, Minneapolis used coal gas rather than natural gas -- no pipelines up here yet. The leaking tank leakage leaked into the cavern, and on its own merits, and through the good offices of bacteria, became even more toxic. This required a few changes.
The repository itself are two or three aluminum clad concrete buildings within the cavern.
Reply to Noble Dust If you've got a picture of this library, it would be nice to see it. I looked on the Kent State web site and they have many pictures, but they seem squeamish about actually identifying the buildings. Inside pictures, but no exteriors.
Reply to T Clark We even changed the name of a suburb near me to Carnegie in the hope of attracting more donations from the great man. They were built around the world - England, Oceania, Europe.
I don't think I've ever been as productive as I've been in the past 2 months. I now have a library with my own essays (I'm currently at 85, but there are more in the making and I deleted first revisions of many, so yeah), and a digital art museum with hundreds of pieces. And the best thing? Not even thinking of burning out. I've been going strong, at my own leisurely pace. I could have done more, but hey, moving a mountain a day is enough work in my opinion.
Speaking of items of local interest. Joel Chandler Harris grew up about 1 1/2 hours from me in rural middle Georgia. You may know the story, but when he was young, during the Civil War, he accepted an apprenticeship with a wealthy plantation owner operating a printing press, and he moved into the plantation. He listened to the folk stories of the slaves, and he later printed them in the Atlanta newspaper where he eventuallyworked, using the pronunciations of the slaves, preserving the stories and dialects.
They were eventually printed as the Tales of Uncle Remus. Disney popularized the tales in the movie Song of the South in the 1940s, but it's no longer available for viewing as it's been determined to be too controversial.
Reply to T ClarkReply to Tom StormReply to Noble Dust Asking for and getting a Carnagie library was very worthwhile for small towns, which would otherwise have had a much smaller, less serviceable library located in a storefront. Or, they would have had only a school house library, not open to the public, and tailored to juvenile needs.
This is a reading room at the UMN Walter Library (built in the 1930) and UMN Wilson Library built 40 years later
This week's dinner meal prep was a big win: Mediterranean chicken breasts with dill yogurt sauce. The grocery store had no dill (?!) so I went with tarragon, which was a very happy accident. The chicken is seasoned with some quite fragrant spices such as cardamom and all spice. I made hummus, this time successfully, and included a little smoked paprika. I've learned gradually that hummus is not about garlic; this recipe had two cloves, which was actually too much, despite how much I love garlic. To finish things off I made a Mediterranean orzo salad which included Castelvetrano olives, feta cheese, spinach, and red bell pepper. Eating good Mediterranean foods makes me feel like I'm going to live forever. Food that's just as healthy as it is delicious is rare and special.
GPT says it's ambiguous even though there's only one result.
"The expression 8/2(2+2) is ambiguous and can lead to different interpretations and results, depending on how you apply the order of operations.
One possible interpretation is to perform the addition inside the parentheses first:
2 + 2 = 4
Then, multiplying 2 by the result:
8/2 * 4 = 4 * 4 = 16
Another interpretation, based on the convention of simplifying multiplication and division from left to right, would be:
8/2 = 4
4 * (2 + 2) = 4 * 4 = 16
Both interpretations yield the same result, which is 16. However, due to the ambiguity of the expression, it's generally recommended to use parentheses or provide clearer notation to avoid confusion."
Are Mediterranean chickens different than say, the chickens of Alabama?
Mediterranean chickens tend to be very animated and emotional, with naturally tan feathers. Alabama chickens are know for being more passive aggressive. They tend to wear a few extra pounds as their diet is high in fat and sugar.
It was a fair sized one, although admittedly nothing eggstraordinary. In any case, I think we are getting distracted from the cranberry sauce which is the gastronomic point of significance.
Yes. I’m generally against mixing sweet and savory in a savory context. Whether I approve of your decision will be based on exactly what type of cranberry sauce we’re dealing with here.
Well, in the US there are two. Your typical preserve-style goop with actual berries in it. Then there's the canned kind, which blorps out of the can in a perfectly uniform gelatinous blob. It's still sometimes referred to as sauce, despite not being a sauce at all. It's quite tasty. My mother still buys it for me at Thanksgiving to this day, despite also making real homemade cranberry sauce. Now apparently my cousins check to make sure there will be plenty of canned cranberry.
Oh, I don't remember ever even seeing the canned kind. This is Bramwell's, comes in a jar, and is preserve style. Homemade sounds great but haven't had that.
Reply to Baden Homemade is just preserve style is what I meant.
To be fair I remember the cans more than remember having seen them recently. They taste tart, but the consistency is like Jell-O so it looks gross coming out of the can, retaining every ridge molded into it until you slice it into circles.
Reply to Moliere Canned cranberries have pectin in them (naturally); pectin plus sugar = gel.
Many people have only had canned cranberries and reject home made; I find that odd. Then there's NPR's Susan Stanberg (long time news host, now retired) and her pink cranberry - horseradish sauce.
2 cups raw cranberries.
1 small onion.
1?2 cup sugar.
3?4 cup sour cream.
2 tablespoons horseradish
1/2 cup of sugar makes a pretty tart sauce. Some people rave about it, I've never made it. Never will. I like horseradish, but it doesn't belong just anywhere, like in cranberries or pecan pie.
One begins with an innocent berry and is led through jellied tubes of sliceable pectin and on to experimental horseradish abominations. I shudder to speculate on the next phase of this culinary misadventure.
I forgot to mention those dudes on that channel are equal parts funny and annoying. But I am subscribed and do watch their food content. As millennials do.
Reply to Jamal I like this I think because of the roasted peppers. I like when they sort of collapse in the oven and have a nice char. I might add some Balsamic vinegar to this mix and let it marinade in the refrigerator and have it cold as opposed to hot. The carrots bother me unless they were shredded. I can accept that better.
In submitting these alternative suggestions, I worry you might consider it an indictment to something you hold dear, and if so, please allow me to withdraw all I've said and we speak nothing more of it again.
As I'm about half Finnish, I've been eating Lingonberry preserves my entire life. I'm a lingonberry hipster. My family puts it on Kropsua, which is like a Dutch baby. I think I've talked about it on here before.
I splurged on one of my favorite cheeseburgers in the city today (although I'm no authority on them by any means). It's simply topped with American cheese, caramelized onions, pickles and secret sauce. Good fries that are definitely brined and possibly double fried with lemon garlic aioli and homemade ketchup for dipping.
Reply to Jamal I liked the boldness of the performance, unapologetic in its absurdity, flamboyant and uniquely creative. I mean all those things. It also sounded like shit, but that was not a distraction, but part of the allure.
I splurged on one of my favorite cheeseburgers in the city today (although I'm no authority on them by any means). It's simply topped with American cheese, caramelized onions, pickles and secret sauce. Good fries that are definitely brined and possibly double fried with lemon garlic aioli and homemade ketchup for dipping.
Agree that American cheese is the right one for cheeseburger. Thumbs down on caramelized onions - raw. Pickles are ok, but I remove them and eat separately, just like I do at McDonalds. The only real ketchup, katchup, catsup, catchup, ketsup is Heinz. " brined and possibly double fried"... I'll pretend I didn't see that.
Tell us the name of the establishment, or will it give away the location of the ND Fortress of Solitude.
Using a Fonzie-derived meme is itself, ironically enough, jumping the shark. As is, ironically enough, using the term "meme." As is, ironically enough, using the term "ironically enough." That previous statement is, ironically enough, not true. The previous statement is, ironically enough, not ironic at all.
Using a Fonzie-derived meme is itself, ironically enough, jumping the shark. As is, ironically enough, using the term "meme." As is, ironically enough, using the term "ironically enough." That previous statement is, ironically enough, not true. The previous statement is, ironically enough, not ironic at all.
I am, ironically enough, very proud of the previous post.
I was going to tell him I piss on his hamburger, but I thought he may read that as mean spirited, so I stepped slowly away, not to be noticed, and then spoke of the Fonz, distracting like a rodeo clown, and he was none the wiser.
I'm proud of that post. I feel like I just had sex with a supermodel actually
Tell us the name of the establishment, or will it give away the location of the ND Fortress of Solitude.
Nah NYC is huge as you know. The ND bat cave will never be discovered. It’s called Home Frite. Admittedly it looks kinda gross in the yelp pictures, but I suppose most good burgers don't look very good.
As I'm about half Finnish, I've been eating Lingonberry preserves my entire life. I'm a lingonberry hipster. My family puts it on Kropsua, which is like a Dutch baby. I think I've talked about it on here before.
My own preference for lingonberry preserves has a Nordic connection. My wife was so sad that IKEA was leaving Russia last year that she went and got ten jars of their lingonberry jam, and I’m still making my way through that batch. If only I had access to Finnish pancakes, Scottish eggs, and Dutch babies. The Swedes have it with their famous meatballs.
My wife was so sad that IKEA was leaving Russia last year that she went and got ten jars of their lingonberry jam, and I’m still making my way through that batch.
The jam is too sweet, at least in comparison to the preserves. My family are complete snobs about this. They complain when certain brands are out of stock. One can imagine where I get it from. 10 jars of lingonberry preserves would probably last my family 10 kropsua breakfasts tops.
Nomination as the greatest post in the history of the Shoutbox can be made by anyone, but selection can only be made by The Voice of the Spirit of Philosophy. Alas, in that capacity, I have to recuse myself from deciding on my own nomination, so I see it more as a statement of pride than a formal action.
As for the nomination of your post as the greatest post of all time, again nominations are accepted from anyone but the final decision is also made by the VofSoP. In that capacity I will... take your nomination under advisement.
Fair enough. I just don't have much of a sweet tooth.
I prefer savoury too. I’ll always go a for a starter and main rather than main and dessert. However, sweetness is in my opinion an essential element in savoury foods. For example, my roast bell peppers yesterday were super sweet. Tomatoes are used for pasta sauces because of their sweetness. Onions too. Chinese food would be unrecognizable without sugar or honey.
Well yes, the examples you give have very subtle sweetness to them. Thai food is one of my favorite cuisines for it's complexity; it literally has everything: savory, spicy, umami, sour, sweet, different textures, cooked and raw ingredients. Cranberry sauce on a Scotch egg, while I'm sure I would appreciate it for what it is, sounds like too much of a sweet and savory mix for me. And I say that as a typical American who is more likely to allow savory and sweet together for breakfast; I'm not sure why. Is that American? I dunno. I like ketchup on a baconeggandcheese, and will even drink an OJ with it.
Savoury and sweet together? Like bacon, marshmallows and syrup for breakfast? That’s pretty American aye, but the French go for the sweet breakfasts too.
Balderdash! A couple of my examples are intensely sweet. Very subtle my arse.
What? Roasted bell peppers, pasta sauce, onions and Chinese food? None of that is intensely sweet when compared to a dessert, or slathering something savory in cranberry sauce or some such. Maybe it is true that American desserts are sickeningly sweet compared to the rest of the world.
What? Roasted bell peppers, pasta sauce, onions and Chinese food? None of that is intensely sweet when compared to a dessert, or slathering something savory in cranberry sauce or some such. Maybe it is true that American desserts are sickeningly sweet compared to the rest of the world.
Bullcrap! You make some good points though.
In other news, Sparks are on tour at the moment, playing Barcelona tonight at the Primavera Sound music festival. Ron now has a pencil, rather than a toothbrush, moustache.
Thai food is one of my favorite cuisines for it's complexity; it literally has everything: savory, spicy, umami, sour, sweet, different textures, cooked and raw ingredients
Hey Shoutbox - I'm taking a break from the Forum for a while to switch focus to a creative writing project that I've been putting off for a long time. I need to get into a different headspace to do that, and it's going to take time to adjust. I'm not revoking membership or anything like that and fully intend to resume - but need to declare it, as I keep getting drawn back by force of habit. Chat later!
My latest AI conversation: https://poe.com/s/4SYsAh4v0mRGiggiiFda
It's learning. :meh:
Cut off to it's "not respond" state after the last two messages but. Still. Thought it might be interesting to post for anyone who might be interested in the progress of AI. :grimace:
Next time things are completely chaotic and seem to make no sense, you can take great comfort in knowing that things are exactly as they should be and you're exactly where you're supposed to be, just as we both are now, in a conversation plotted out milliions of years ago for a special purpose.
That is radical optimism, and while most might think that it is too much to fit on an egg, I am most sure it can. That's how optimistic I am.
Reply to Hanover Now that you’ve clarified radical optimism, I partially regret approving of it in that other thread. When you boil it down, it’s hard to distinguish your Panglossian attitude from that which I was criticizing, exemplified by the militant atheist Glaswegian.
I had an Odessa sandwich and a pile of small fried fish for dinner. This time I ate all heads, bones, and tails, because I like to leave a clean plate. I see it as an achievement.
Reply to Baden I would like to join with your associates in berating you.
But wait. As it happens, I tolerate the gastronomic peccadillos of my friends, so it’s ok. I pride myself on this tolerance and see it as a major achievement.
I would like to point out that your ego may be getting the better of you, but I have an uncanny ability to avoid stating the obvious, which is perhaps my ultimate achievement.
Now that you’ve clarified radical optimism, I partially regret approving of it in that other thread. When you boil it down, it’s hard to distinguish your Panglossian attitude from that which I was criticizing, exemplified by the militant atheist Glaswegian.
Well, I'm speaking of emunah and bitachon of course (duh), and while there is merit to what you say regarding the fact that there can in fact be suffering that is real and truly the result of evil, we cannot be too casual in decreeing that tomorrow won't be perfect because what we say is what will be (not only what I say, but even what I think), as in tracht gut vet zien gut (duh). Let's not confuse this with the mundane concept of the self fulfiling prophecy, but instead we must realize that our divine nature imparts upon us the power to create, which means when we say there will be light, there will be light. So, I say there will be light, and it will be so. You're welcome.
Pessimism, you see, is morally wrong because you're never just a thinker, but always a creator. So, for God's sake, tracht gut vet zein gut.
This is philosophy as it was meant to be, a way to live one's life. I get that it probably won't withstand a scientific or analytic evaluation (duh).
Reply to Hanover Well, although I said I wasn’t an optimist, I want to say that I’m not a pessimist either. Typically of me, I reject that polarity.
I like the stuff about the power to create, which introduces agency into what seemed initially to me like a passive quietism. So that’s cool.
When I can be bothered to read up on the Jewish stuff, maybe I’ll have more to say. On the face of it though, it looks like your people may have succeeded in reaching some of my conclusions.
I didn’t know you could get klezmer music in places of worship.
I didn't know someone could sing such a rousing rendition of simon tov.
It depends upon how orthodox the synagogue is and whether it is on the sabbath or another day when you're not supposed to work because playing a musical instrument is considered a form of work (duh).
It depends upon how orthodox the synagogue is and whether it is on the sabbath or another day when you're not supposed to work because playing a musical instrument is considered a form of work (duh).
I relate this to the dour Calvinist vs Happy Clappy traditions in Protestant Christianity. Klezmer music is my jam though.
Reply to Noble Dust But it’s more delicious than it looks. In the photo it looks quite nice but nothing amazing. In real life, it’s something else.
I enjoyed reading the “Concept” page of the website, a portion of which I present here in its Google translated version:
Cafe "Odessa-mama" is your source of good mood. Forget about diet and calories, gastronomic escapades and revolutionary culinary breakthroughs. Sit simply and sincerely, like your mother. Eat tasty, elegant and hospitable in the southern way, as in Odessa.
We want each guest to feel like a sailor who has returned to his beloved city from a long voyage in the cafe "Odessa-Mama". Here it is equally good to sip peppercorns with old friends, to have a snack with lightly salted sprat, to show the grown-up baby what real naval pasta is, to remove a bottle of white under the mullet with the girls.
"Odessa-mama" is a place where all hardships recede under the onslaught of positivity, mincemeat and horseradish, and a tsunami of troubles dissolves on the breakwater of soulfulness of green cabbage soup with veal ribs. Molecular cuisine? Dukan? Omnivore? Stop this nonsense. Only potatoes with cracklings and mackerel with onions.
Reply to Jamal I looked for a recipe for this, but my Google search only located me various sandwich shops in Odessa, Texas.
Is the cheese a soft goat cheese? If it is, I'd recommend it be topped with broiled peppers, properly charred and collapsed, marinated in balsamic vinegar and capers, with Klezmer music driving hard in the background, maybe of a Zepplin cover, perhaps "All of My Love."
Yes, I can imagine sitting at such a table, like a sailor returning home from debauchery, not a care in all the world, contemplating upon the rabbis' words as they hammer out the lyrics:
"For many hours and days that pass ever soon
The tides have caused the flame to dim
At last the arm is straight, the hand to the loom
Is this to end or just begin?"
I think I did your sammich justice, protecting its basic essence.
Sounds sneeze-inducing, to say nothing of choking.
My best guess from extensive research is what got lost in translation is this pepper infused vodka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horilka.
Peppercorn entertainment is typically limited to the pepper wench, who twists and turns the ancient wooden tool to assure you of a sufficient heap of pepper on your pasta and who scurries off when your hand rises in the universal "enough!" gesture.
I had an Odessa sandwich and a pile of small fried fish for dinner. This time I ate all heads, bones, and tails, because I like to leave a clean plate. I see it as an achievement.
Peppercorn entertainment is typically limited to the pepper wench, who twists and turns the ancient wooden tool to assure you of a sufficient heap of pepper on your pasta and who scurries off when your hand rises in the universal "enough!" gesture.
I read this and thought yeah, what’s the deal with waiters grinding pepper onto your food? It turns out I’m not the first to ask this question:
Relatedly, what’s the deal with restaurants that don’t have salt and pepper on the table? One reason commonly cited is that the chef wants the dishes seasoned just so. This is moronic. I like different amounts of salt on my food from day to day, and the variation between people is even greater. The chef is right to want a dish to be experienced with the right level of saltiness, but he or she cannot ensure that level with a determinate amount, because the resulting levels of experienced saltiness vary so much between people; the chef is therefore adding what tastes correct to the chef, on that particular day.
Relatedly, what’s the deal with restaurants that don’t have salt and pepper on the table?
I don't see that so often, and that could be either I don't eat at fancy enough restaurants or I'm in the US where the customer is always right, meaning it's my food and I'll do with it as I want and a waiter isn't going to push back on a customer. The bulk of his pay is in the tip, so there's that.
I did have a friend who was chastised by the chef for asking for ketchup for her steak. I guess that seemed to the chef to be intended as an insult, but I know the woman, and she just liked ketchup on her steak. Not everyone is a food snob, and I guess she has the right to ruin her steak.
So I agree. If you want to preserve your meat in plate of salt, you have that right. Once when my favorite all you can eat buffet stopped stocking peanuts for their soft serve ice cream, I brought my own in a zip lock bag. You can do that with the salt. Maybe steal some salt packs from Wendy's or something.
I did have a friend who was chastised by the chef for asking for ketchup for her steak. I guess that seemed to the chef to be intended as an insult, but I know the woman, and she just liked ketchup on her steak. Not everyone is a food snob, and I guess she has the right to ruin her steak.
Hold on, that’s not the same thing at all. I’m on the chef’s side on that one. The difference is that salt is an essential element of a savoury dish, and the right level cannot be achieved with the same amount for each person. Ketchup is more like an additional ingredient, added to foods out of dumb habit, and it largely obliterates all other flavours. The customer has no right to add extra ingredients. Not In my restaurant anyway.
So I agree. If you want to preserve your meat in plate of salt, you have that right. Once when my favorite all you can eat buffet stopped stocking peanuts for their soft serve ice cream, I brought my own in a zip lock bag. You can do that with the salt. Maybe steal some salt packs from Wendy's or something.
No, he uses the 1 gallon plastic bag he brought the peanuts in to take home "left-overs". It's a kind of Homer Simpson thing Hanover does at all you can eat places.
People who put ketchup / catsup on quality meat cooked by professionals should be ejected from the establishment. Ketchup / catsup doesn't belong on sausage either.
A friend of mine pours rivers of ketchup on his British cooked breakfast. All over the fried eggs and everything. I tell him the eggs have their own sauce, but it’s no use.
My American restaurant is going to shut down your Marxist restaurant and I'm going to season my food with your tears.
You could say that my restaurant is more properly American—liberal in the traditional sense—since it insists on the rights of the private owner of the establishment.
In @BC’s state-controlled communist restaurant, everyone would get the same so there would be no issues.
You could say that my restaurant is more properly American—liberal in the traditional sense—since it insists on the rights of the private owner of the establishment.
Certainly the owner has the right to do as he wishes, but creating a condition that will limit sales with no financial advantage to the seller might result in reduced profits.
Oftentimes those businesses that cater to their customer's desires are more profitable than those that are just outlets for the business owner's artistic expression .
I can provide additional business advice upon request.
Certainly the owner has the right to do as he wishes, but creating a condition that will limit sales with no financial advantage to the seller might result in reduced profits.
Oftentimes those businesses that cater to their customer's desires are more profitable than those that are just outlets for the business owner's artistic expression .
I can provide additional business advice upon request.
Sure, but not all restaurant businesses are the same, and it’s up to owner how to run it. Since you appealed to rights, the important thing here is that the owner has the right to choose not to cater to all desires, and to physically eject customers who don’t play by the owner’s rules.
I can provide you additional information on the principles of artisanal service production on request.
I do like those restaurants in the French countryside where you don’t have a choice—you just eat what it happens to be that day. It’s like going to someone’s house, and since I always seem to be with someone who takes ages to choose from the menu, it makes the whole experience better.
Yesterday was my first foray into brining meat, pork chops in this instance. The brine was water, soy sauce, mirin and orange slices. The recipe called for low sodium soy sauce, and I only had regular, so I halved the amount but I don’t think that was right; they were under seasoned. Also I made the mistake of trusting my apparently faulty meat thermometer and overcooked them (on the stovetop). Juicy but a bit tough. Ah well. A learning experience.
:up: Weisel lost his faith because of the Holocaust, but then wrote a prayer in which it seems like he's trying to reconcile with God (A Prayer for the Days of Awe). That's what I was looking for.
Reply to Hanover It isn't like the baked beans are actually baked in some traditional Englishy way -- they are pretty much like American store-brand canned beans, OK to accompany cheap wieners to feed 6 year olds. But then, the English have never excelled in culinary arts.
Reply to Noble Dust How is brining different from marinating (other than that 'brine' is derived from OE and marinade is a French word, meaning 'pickle in brine', and related to 'mariner', as in Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner)?
Pork isn't what it used to be -- pigs have gotten leaner, owing to breeding and feeding practices. Fatty pork tastes better -- and has more moisture (like, fat) -- but if one eats too much of it, one is dead before one has gotten tired of fine pork chops, at least according to public health killjoys. I find boneless pork ribs to be a little more tender and tasty than boneless center-cut pork chops--they have a little more fat.
Reply to frank A lot of things have happened which require reconciliation with disparate concepts of God. How is the Holocaust compatible with a loving, all powerful, all knowing God? How is any mass killing, be it in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North America, or anywhere else, compatible with such a God?
God, of course, didn't execute the Holocaust, Stalin's mass purges, or North American slaughter of the native peoples, or any other major or minor atrocity (I am presuming).
A major flaw--I think it's a flaw, anyway--in a very common concept is assigning God unlimited capability and unlimited liability. It's a convenient way of shifting our criminal record to a deity.
On the other hand, many believers find the idea of the all-knowing, all powerful BUT passive God altogether unacceptable, as much as they find the not-omniscient, not-omnipotent, not omnipresent god unacceptable.
I thought brining was just throwing something in salt water, like a turkey on Thanksgiving.
I also think salt is like ketchup in that it's rude to add to a chef's masterpiece, although I don't feel I've been entirely consistent on this point. I think opinion though is a social construct and I'm not required to live by anyone's standard other than my own.
The William James twist on Pascal's wager I thought interesting. One needn't think of the safety from eternal damnation as the basis for belief, but one need only look at the consequences to one's life if they believe. It posits faith as a pragmatic choice, dispensing with the fear of being wrong as an invalid basis for rejection, and argues fear is why many reject faith. Interesting I thought.
I find reading him a challenge, not because he writes in an obscure or complicated way. I in fact very much like that early twentieth century writing style. The problem lies in the 8 point font and that I left the book outside in the rain.
A lot of things have happened which require reconciliation with disparate concepts of God. How is the Holocaust compatible with a loving, all powerful, all knowing God? How is any mass killing, be it in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North America, or anywhere else, compatible with such a God?
True. I wasn't preoccupied with the problem if evil tho. I was thinking about the cycle of violence. One of the things that keeps it going is an inability to face victimization. A person has to first accept that they were wronged, then proceed to forgiveness in order to be free of the infectious malice that goes along with it.
Weiner cautions God in his prayer that He shouldn't forgive the evil doers.
Reply to jorndoe The enlightened guardians of the universe show up and mankind shoots itself in the head. Not an entirely new plot by any means, but all of the well known players behaved in such a way that the usual suspension of disbelief could be set aside.
I find reading him a challenge, not because he writes in an obscure or complicated way. I in fact very much like that early twentieth century writing style. The problem lies in the 8 point font and that I left the book outside in the rain.
Weiner cautions God in his prayer that He shouldn't forgive the evil doers.
So, the Jews fled Pharaoh and on their way to the promised land were attacked unprovoked by the Amelek, and so the commandment was made that every Amalek man, woman, child, animal, vessel for food, and I think everything they touched had to be destroyed. King Saul did as told almost but he spared King Hagag because he felt bad for the fucker, so Solomon had to step up and kill him and then Saul lost the throne and Solomon got it. The HR form demoting him said "Reason for decision: insubordination." So like 600 years later, Haman tried to annihilate all the Jews, and he was said to be a descendant of Hagag, meaning Hagag impregnated someone between Saul's sympathy and Solomon's killing him, but Mordechai and Esther blocked that plan and saved the Jews, so we eat hamantachens (fun filled fruit filled pastries) to remember that.
Double check my story. Could be wrong here or there, but generally right I think.
But anywho, such gives us the commandment to hate that which is pure evil, meaning hate is, in certain situations a Jewish virtue, which contrasts with turning the other cheek, the rule of another tribe.
Back to the Holocaust. Zachor means "you shall never forget," and it's a central Jewish message of the Holocaust. The Hebrew word Zachor is actually inscribed on the tombstones of those who survived the Holocaust and who have since died.
So, the Jewish reaction? Making sure the world never forgets.
Not sure about your etymology, but all I know is that a brine is a simple salt water solution that meat is submerged in for a period of time, vs a marinade which does not include water and is generally just slathered on there for awhile. As the name implies, brining is more similar to picking. Pickled meat…mmm.
Reply to Noble Dust Suddenly fastidious about pork parts? The part that is pickled is the bony structure, not the toe-nail. It's meat and bone, seasoned and cooked. When food was dearer, people used most of the pig. Not sure how often the pork gut was used by Europeans (see chitlins), but more of the pig was used as human food in the past, particularly organ meats (liver, kidneys, etc.)
So, the Jewish reaction? Making sure the world never forgets.
That's why Weiner had them build the Holocaust museum in Washington, so that as long as the US government stands, no one will forget. Even if it's painful to remember, it's your duty. I don't think the Holocaust is the kind of thing anyone can forgive. There's just no way. You can still do your best to face it by remembering it.
That's why I switched to e-books; the type can be enlarged to suit.
Yeah, but a rain soaked e-book is toast. My son dropped his phone in some water and heard that if you put it in a bag of rice it would dry it out. It didn't fix the phone, but the next time we ate rice, I got a big serving of phone.
Here is yesterday's recipe, Its a bit 'jazz'. Her majesty wants coleslaw - we only got red cabbage, but what the fuck. Slice it very thin, only to discover that there's no carrot to grate. Ok, very finely slice some celery, and a green bell pepper. Then add grated apple and grated cheddar (US version use well salted plastic) Then add the mayo. Run out of mayo. Add salad cream and olive oil. Find some chestnut mushrooms and dice and add with chopped fennel leaves. Feeds about five. Cook jersey new potatoes with garden mint, serve with too much butter. Discover we have no flour for the quiche. Fry off an onion add a spoonful of some curry paste found in the fridge, a tin of chopped tomatoes and half a tin of slightly dried up sweetcorn and piece de resistance, a tin of weird dark brown chickpea relatives from India. feeds another two.
I caught Her Maj having leftovers for lunch, and she never eats leftovers - its just that good...
Here is yesterday's recipe, Its a bit 'jazz'. Her majesty wants coleslaw
Sliced cabbage, mayonnaise, vinegar - best coleslaw ever. Celery seed or minced raw onion if your wife says you have to. Never, never, never carrots. I love raw cabbage almost as much as I love cooked cabbage.
Torn cabbage leaves, steam for a couple of minutes, butter, pepper, salt if needed - best cooked cabbage ever.
Ditch the rulebook; try it with honey and cinnamon. Live dangerously.
What like best about my wife's coleslaw is the tang of the vinegar and the lack of sweetness. That and the flavor of the raw cabbage. Anything that hides that misses the point.
What like best about my wife's coleslaw is the tang of the vinegar and the lack of sweetness. That and the flavor of the raw cabbage. Anything that hides that misses the point.
I feel like the word "coleslaw" is a euphamism in this sentence, but I could be misreading.
Velveeta™ is quite disgusting, no doubt about that, but it doesn't list Polymethyl Methacrylate or polystyrene as an ingredient. It may have actual cheese in it, but the milk proteins have been emulsified so that they break apart and perform the Velveeta 'flow', meaning it's kind of spreadable and when heated will turn into a reliably smooth, viscous mass that coats whatever it contacts in optically bright orange.
I mean, who needs real food when you can get all that in a shelf-stable box?
According to Statista, in 2020 only 10 million Americans ate as much as 1 pound of Velveeta in a 7 day period. That means 314 million Americans didn't. It's not a best seller.
The cheese that most Americans eat is made by dairy companies using milk, rennet, cultures, and salt.
I agree with Frank that your reported culinary efforts were not appealing. On the other hand I don't have to eat it, so that's a big plus.
Reply to BC I was in line at Kroger and I realized I needed some cheese and the guy in front of me hadn't yet paid, so I ran to the cheese aisle to grab me some cheese. I was in a hurry, so I grabbed the first thing I could and it turned out to be Colby Cheese. I found it very much like the block version of Velveeta. Not sure your thoughts, but I think if I melted it and poured it over some elbow noodles, I'd have something pretty close to Kraft Mac n Cheese.
Well lookee here: https://www.greedygourmet.com/ingredients/velveeta-substitutes/#:~:text=Colby%20Cheese&text=It%20has%20a%20very%20mild,of%20Velveeta%20slices%20and%20shreds.
My sister, who lived in America, informed me the dairy there is substandard. I've tried Hershey bars and Krispy Kreme donuts which are both very poor quality. Maybe that's partly due to the dairy in them. Any of you Americans been to Europe and tried our dairy? What did you think?
Hence use plastic instead. Canada is home to a perfectly respectable cheddar, at least as good as New Zealand, so there's no excuse, but wilful ignorant dogmatism.
*Sigh* New potatoes from Jersey, Not potatoes from New Jersey. Jesus, it would save a deal of confusion if these emigres could think up new names for new places instead of calling them all by names already in use.
My sister, who lived in America, informed the dairy there is substandard. I've tried Hershey bars and Krispy Kreme donuts which are both very poor quality. Maybe that's partly due to the dairy in them. Any of you Americans been to Europe and tried our dairy? What did you think?
I remember back about 10 years ago there was this really swampy musky smell everywhere I went. That might have been when your sister was here.
Check. Dispensed with the sister joke.
Krispy Kreme aren't known for their high dairy content I don't think. They are basically puffed sugar pastries with a vanilla taste known for their deliciousness.
Everyone bitches about American cheeses. I think it's a combinaiton of things. Raw unpasteurized milk can't be commercially sold, so all cheese use pasteurized milk in the US. I also think most foods in the US are made at large factories and then sent to a supermarket where we can be dazzled with the selection. This keeps us from getting farm made or fresh cheeses at our supermarkets, but you can find such things at bourgeois speciality shops, but that would require that I venture inside the city where the dirty people are.
Velveeta™ is quite disgusting, no doubt about that, but it doesn't list Polymethyl Methacrylate or polystyrene as an ingredient. It may have actual cheese in it, but the milk proteins have been emulsified so that they break apart and perform the Velveeta 'flow', meaning it's kind of spreadable and when heated will turn into a reliably smooth, viscous mass that coats whatever it contacts in optically bright orange.
They are basically puffed sugar pastries with a vanilla taste known for their deliciousness.
They're donuts and poor quality ones. But there always seems to be hype when they open a store. I suppose it's the marketing. Irish style donuts have real cream in them and are better all round as well as cheaper but no one seems to get excited by them.
My sister is an actress, acting teacher, screenwriter and all round top lady. Pretty sure she bathes regularly. She may even be a member here so keep your potty mouth to yourself. :kiss:
The originals were good, especially the Bavarian cream. Krispy Kreme started during the Great Depression in a tiny town somewhere. I don't eat them anymore. They changed when someone decided to make the operation into a corporation.
don't eat them anymore. They changed when someone decided to make the operation into a corporation.
They standardized and mechanized their production in the 1960s. You ain't that old. https://www.insider.com/history-krispy-kreme-doughnuts-iconic-glazed-ipo-stock-filing-2021-6#to-solve-the-issue-of-inconsistent-doughnuts-across-stores-the-company-streamlined-its-dough-making-5
A batch of US dairy operations produce quality cheeses, including cheddar. I can buy high-end cheese at the grocery store -- some imported, some domestic. Can't really tell the difference in most cases. One thing that is different is that high end cheese is much more expensive, which is why people buy ordinary cheddar (actual cheese) instead of cheese aged for 5 years in the crypt of an English parish church, amongst the corpses of people who died of plague.
Just eat what's on your plate and stop bitching about American dairy products.
Reply to Baden Most Europeans, I have heard, find Hersey's chocolate bars unsatisfactory. The milk used in Hersey's bars is condensed -- a process which will definitely degrade the flavor of milk.
I don't think Hersey's milk chocolate is especially great, either.
I don't think Hersey's milk chocolate is especially great, either.
I like Hershey's chocolate a lot. Some of that comes from the fact I've been eating it for 70 years, but I find all those highfalutin, namby-pamby chocolates too sweet.
How did it take you so long? I figured that out when I was 5. My mom tells the tale of me and my brother singing a little song we concocted that went "a-no-ther beautiful day - AT LEAST 60! [degrees F]".
like Hershey's chocolate a lot. Some of that comes from the fact I've been eating it for 70 years, but I find all those highfalutin, namby-pamby chocolates too sweet.
You do know you can buy chocolate as bitter or as sweet as you want? That goes for Hershey's too. Just ask @Baden. Before he was a monkey, he ran a chocolate factory.
Reply to T Clark A lot of things just don't taste as good as they used to, and I am quite sure it is my palate problem and not that the quality of all those things have deteriorated. It isn't a covid problem either, since food stopped tasting quite as good as it used to before covid. Cod fish still tastes like cod fish, but salmon doesn't taste like much of anything. Sardines still taste like sardines. Not sure I can tell the difference between run of the mill tuna and white chicken. Etc.
Reply to Noble Dust Mayflies, aka Ephemeroptera meaning short lived, used to be very plentiful for a short period of time in the spring. So plentiful that bridges over the Mississippi would get slimy and slippery from crushed mayflies. I never saw this myself. They bred in the backwaters of the river, By the 1960s, pollution (pesticide runoff in particular) had greatly reduced their numbers.
There has been some recovery, I've heard.
I haven't seen any June bugs lately -- kidney bean colored beetles; they'd fly into window screens and they were big enough to make a little noise when they crashed.
"It has a very mild flavour, making it easy for people to eat.
It’s a good Velveeta substitute because it’s so mild, soft, and moist. It can be melted into sauces or onto pastas, and can also be used in place of Velveeta slices and shreds."
Lots of things are mild, soft, and moist that don't resemble Velveeta in any way, shape manner or form -- like scratch cakes, for example. I always thought it was full flavor that made food attractive and easy to eat. And real food, even Colby Cheese, isn't a substitute for Velveeta. It's Velveeta that is the substitute.
[quote=Why is American chocolate so disgusting? You really don’t want to know;https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/04/why-is-american-chocolate-so-disgusting-you-really-dont-want-to-know]It tastes like sawdust that’s been drowned in sugar and soaked with baby vomit.
It tastes like that, by the way, because that’s roughly what it is.[/quote]
I tried it a couple of times and thought it was okay, despite or maybe because it was so weird.
I went to Hershey, Pennsylvania once. I was up there to see Gettysburg, and they did a reinactment out in a field to show how the South lost the war. I then went up and saw the Amish and got a tour. I'd recommend it.
I didn't eat any chocolate while I was up there, but I was really near a bunch of it.
Well, for what it's worth, I think many of the discussions we have on the forum could be considered the Velveeta of philosophy. For that matter, many of the discussions we have here on the Shoutbox could be considered the Velveeta of the forum in general.
And, yes, yes, I will happily claim the title of the Velveeta of philosophers. Wait, no, I am the Chedobit of philosophers. That's the knockoff brand A&P used to sell when I was a kid. I guess that would make Kant the Velveeta of philosophers.
Sufganiyah... is a round jelly doughnut eaten in Israel and around the world on the Jewish festival of Hanukkah. The doughnut is deep-fried, injected with jam or custard, and then topped with powdered sugar. The doughnut recipe originated in Europe in the 16th century, and by the 19th century was known as a Berliner in Germany.
Jam doughnuts! I used to eat jam doughnuts in my high school lunchbreak, after either a chip roll or Scotch pie and beans.
I guess this answers @T Clark’s question about the global prevalence of doughnuts. The Spanish have churros, which are not doughnuts but which fulfil the same function.
I had mini churros on Saturday with cream and caramel dips.
That's a good donut. There's also a Boston cream pie version with custard inside and a dark chocolate glaze on top.
I'm not a big filled doughnut fan, but that's just personal preference. I judge a doughnut maker by two doughnuts - plain and glazed. Plain should be tender, cakey, and sweet. The really good ones I've had have been small. I think that's because they cook better - When they're bigger the surface tends to get tough. Glazed should tender and fairly dense but not cakey with a thick glaze that crumbles a bit when you bite it and gets all over your lips. Thornton's Bakery in Martinsville Va.
Krispee Kreeme glazed doughnuts are really good if you eat them within 30 minutes of when they are cooked. After that, they go downhill fast.
Plain doughnuts from most places taste good if you put them in a toaster oven for a couple of minutes till the outside gets a little crunch. Microwave doesn't work.
This is also true of Dunkin Donut's coffee rolls. You have to be especially careful that the sugar doesn't catch fire, although a little caramelization can improve the taste.
Reply to T Clark I would like to do a tour of all the places that the British controlled, exploited, owned, or destroyed. More impressive than your short list of little CIA-sponsored coup d’etats and illegally funded right-wing rebel movements.
This apparent pride in British Imperialism is meant to be ironic.
I would like to do a tour of all the places that the British controlled, exploited, owned, or destroyed. More impressive than your short list of little CIA-sponsored coup d’etats and illegally funded right-wing rebel movements.
I was limiting myself to Latin America and my lifetime. England didn't have much of a chance to screw things up there. The Spanish and Portuguese beat you to it. But, yes. You're right. England is the Velveeta of imperialist tyranny.
more impressive than your short list of little CIA-sponsored coup d’etats and illegally funded right-wing rebel movements
Well, several of those were banana republics, and it really wasn't that much trouble to destabilize, corrupt, conquer, despoil, take over, and otherwise ruin them for the greater glory of International Capitalism. We have gone after bigger game and succeeded: Iran, Iraq, USSR, Libya, Germany, Japan, Italy, Granada, etc. Well, the world, really. Look up that churchy-secular song popular in the '60s (you weren't alive then) "We've Got the Whole World In Our Hands". The sun may not have set on the British Empire, but "We Are the World", the American Century, etc.
Credit where credit is due, though: we learned it all from you.
I want to go South America and stay in an all inclusive resort where I don't have to see the locals unless they're bringing me a Margarita or some other South American drink.
Metaphysician UndercoverJune 07, 2023 at 01:52#8135250 likes
It's not your palate, it's because they are "farmed". Modern farming strategies (grow as fast as possible for a cheap as possible) tend to rob the food of its flavour.
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover It's a good thing they don't farm cod or walleye (fresh water fish). Fish farming (salmon, shrimp...) tends to be too much like raising hogs in confinement, they live in their own excrement.
Does conch resemble abalone? (as in, "Get yourself a sweet Madonna sitting on a pedestal of abalone shell") Haven't seen abalone on a menu for a long time.
They have a big fishing industry, so sample their fish?
I see. Well, I can confirm that ceviche is delicious, when done right. The problem is it’s rarely done right, which is why the trip to Peru would be worth it.
Ceviche is perhaps the greatest of my culinary discoveries since 2010.
It was Britain (and the UK), not England. This is important because, although the Empire originated in activity by England alone, following the union Scotland took a leading role in its construction and administration. Oh and the Welsh.
Velveeta is a brand name for a processed cheese product similar to American cheese. It was invented in 1918 by Emil Frey of the "Monroe Cheese Company" in Monroe, New York. In 1923, "The Velveeta Cheese Company" was incorporated as a separate company... The firm was purchased by Kraft Foods Inc. in 1927.
Nice town. Check out Arethusa Falls if you like hiking.
The plan was to hike. I've been out west a bunch of times, but never up there, so I thought it'd be cool. If you have any other suggestions, let me know.
oes conch resemble abalone? (as in, "Get yourself a sweet Madonna sitting on a pedestal of abalone shell") Haven't seen abalone on a menu for a long time.
Yes it does.
Quite delicious when properly prepared. They are great in soup, lightly fried with garlic, and in batter as well
Velveeta was specifically designed to provide nourishment in a post apocalyptic, radioactive world. It was meant as a provocation to the USSR. It says: we're ready for whatever you have to launch in our direction. We have stockpiles of hydrocarbons that will never rot due to technology extracted from alien spacecrafts. Yes, it tastes like secretions from some unspecified orifice (which it is), but we don't care. We can take it.
Difficult question to answer, better an overall review of everything.
Everyone is complaining about the cost of living going up, and the wages are staying the same. The health and transportation workers are going on strike all the time.
Everyone is complaining that the police are not doing their job and that the politicians are useless expenditures of public funds.
Just like in most places you read about around the world.
Velveeta was specifically designed to provide nourishment in a post apocalyptic, radioactive world. It was meant as a provocation to the USSR. It says: we're ready for whatever you have to launch in our direction. We have stockpiles of hydrocarbons that will never rot due to technology extracted from alien spacecrafts. Yes, it tastes like secretions from some unspecified orifice (which it is), but we don't care. We can take it.
Are you in Honduras? I have a friend who went there in the Peace Corps and married a Honduran woman. They live in the US but own a house and a small coffee plantation in Honduras.
He, and the news media, tell me it can be a very dangerous place to live.
Translocation of shorebird siblings shows intraspecific variation in migration routines to arise after fledging
- Tracking reveals enormous variation in migratory routines, but what is the source?
- Young hand-raised godwits, matched for parentage, were moved 1,000 km east
- Translocated juveniles adopted the pattern of migration of the population at release
- Thus, migration of young godwits is not just shaped by genes and maternal material
It indicates that what we call "instinct" is not just automatic behavior, but also involves learning.
Are you in Honduras? I have a friend who went there in the Peace Corps and married a Honduran woman. They live in the US but own a house and a small coffee plantation in Honduras.
He, and the news media, tell me it can be a very dangerous place to live.
Being living here since I decided that the UK sucked too bad in 1975, best decision of my life. The first time I came here as a teenager in 1965 I fell for the way of life, so easy going and figured life would be easier here than in Manchester. It was and still is mostly.
The country was for quite a few years the owner of the title "Most Dangerous country" and contained 2 of the most dangerous cities outside of war zones. I work in one of them, San Pedro Sula. There is probable about the same possibility of you getting mugged, attacked with a machete of being killed as there is in Manchester if what the newspapers say is true. Where I live is about 30 miles north of there om the coast, it is a lot quieter here.
I used to work for an English charity and had quiet a bit of contact with peace corps people. Got to know quite a few of them, but that was back in the late 70's early 80's.
We have a really good coffee business here, maybe not as big as some of the major production countries but it is supposed to be good quality stuff. I have some friends in the business and have received many packets from them just for giving them honest opinions about the product.
This is one of the most used in the country.
If this does not wake you up in the morning, you should have been buried yesterday.
Thanks for the information. My friend was in the Peace Corps in the late 80s, early 90s. It's funny that coffee in a country full of different indigenous ethnicities has a North American Indian on it's label.
I might be movin' to Montana soon
Just to raise me up a crop of dental floss
Raisin' it up, waxin it down
In a little white box that I can sell uptown…
I never heard of the song; thanks, Google.
For some odd reason, dental floss is mentioned every now and then here, but Congratulations to @T Clark - the first person to mention "dental floss tycoon" on TPF.
''Conch" has been used quite a few times in some fairly odd ways.
Edited for precision and consistency of verb forms.
I'll keep it simple and say Arethusa and two others close to Jackson: Glen Ellis falls and Diana's Baths. These two aren't difficult hikes at all, just worth seeing. Arethusa is more difficult, but well worth it.
If you're looking for more a challenge, let me know. Plenty of options up there.
Reply to BC Tina Turner and the Ikettes did the backing vocals, including in the very difficult (and excellent) middle section that comes after Frank’s solo. The story goes that he went and asked Ike if he could use Tina and the Ikettes for one of his songs and Ike said ok, but make sure you don’t pay them, but Frank paid them anyway.
Tina was so pleased that she was able to sing this that she went into the next studio where Ike was working and dragged him into the studio to hear the result of her labor. He listened to the tape and he goes, ‘What is this shit?’ and walked out"
Ike was of course an abusive asshole, but to be fair, I’ve had friends who reacted the same way when I played Zappa.
The air quality in NYC today is horrendous; the index is 185. I'm not sure what that means, but the air is visibly thick and orange-yellow in color. It's air that's moved down from all of the forest fires in Quebec. It's smells of smoke outside. It's a very post-apocalyptic vibe. Perhaps this could be the motivation I need to finally quit smoking cigarettes.
Yes - well. A five minute walk in this air feels like smoking 5 cigarettes. I was out for my friends birthday soiree last night and, emboldened by the wine in my system, decided to have a cigarette in this air. Even under the influence it was not a great experience.
That's an error from the lyrics site. I noticed it, but, when the topic is growing floss, it's hard to tell. "Waxen" (instead of "waxin") doesn't look right either.
Reply to Noble Dust Forest fire smoke doesn't deliver enough nicotine to provide a satisfactory alternative to tobacco smoke, unfortunately. Maybe when the southern tobacco fields burn, the smoke will be more useful,
Surprisingly, considering the prevailing westerlies, parts of the midwest have been smoked out as well. The sky hasn't been blue for a a week or so. Minneapolis's air is better today than a few days ago, but the air quality is still rated between fair to poor, depending on which web site one looks at. On some days the smoke has been visible at street level, say over 2000 feet down the street, and stinks. The worst we've had was several years ago during the west coast fires, when smoke was visible within 500 feet.
So, $3 and my sympathies probably won't buy you a cup of coffee in NYC, but you have them anyway.
Congratulations to T Clark - the first person to mention "dental floss tycoon" on TPF.
I'm surprised I haven't used it before. As an early example of a large language model (LLM), my processor was trained to type the phrase "dental floss tycoon" whenever it's sensors detected the word "Montana."
It's funny that coffee in a country full of different indigenous ethnicities has a North American Indian on it's label.
Glad you noticed, most have no idea. It's even funnier that a similarly foreign image with feathers in the hair was used on the local money until just a few years ago.
Reply to Noble Dust Oh well, you see I didn't want to insult you with an actual $3 check. That's like giving a beggar a nickel. Not much she can do with even 20 of them. Or you, either. And please be aware that as a bitter crank I don't scatter sympathy on just any old Tom, Dick, or Harry. So receiving my sympathies is a profound comfort.
Allow me to quote Tom Lehrer's conclusion to his "Pollution" song: "Like lambs to the slaughter, they're drinking the water and (cough) breathing (cough) the air."
Since I started trading forex, I noticed this: you can't make much of a profit without volatility. You need ups and downs. Hopefully it doesn't get so bad that the Okies are starving to death in shanty towns on the road to California, but that's always a possibility.
Capitalism is just about making a profit. Capitalist politics is about creating volatility. If you think of it as just being about greed, you're missing something important about it.
It's funny that coffee in a country full of different indigenous ethnicities has a North American Indian on it's label.
Well, you know, they are all kind of related, having arrived in the Hemisphere at roughly the same time--some 20,000 years ago. It's like, say, if the French were the only group to find the western hemisphere 20,000 years ago and crossed on the since-melted glaciers, we'd now have a whole hemisphere of food snobs, haute couture, and pointless philosophy.
Capitalism is just about making a profit. Capitalist politics is about creating volatility. If you think of it as just being about greed, you're missing something important about it.
Aren't the vicissitudes of the market (supply, demand, high, low, greed, fear) capable -- practically destined -- to generate volatility? Does it really take political actors to do that?
Granted, foreign exchange markets may be more susceptible to political events than say, the pork belly futures market. Maybe you should check out the new saffron futures market. Golden Saffron, Finest Pure Premium All Red Saffron Threads, Grade A+ Super Negin, Non-GMO Verified is $129 an ounce on Amazon. Makes one think twice about putting saffron rice on the menu.
Reply to Noble Dust How is your air quality indoors? Air purifier? Hardware stores (and on line) sell particulate masks with activated charcoal filters (made out of burnt trees, probably) which might help. They aren't gas masks; they're designed to reduce the particle load when working with wood, ceramics, metals--materials which when machined can generate inhalable particles--or outside exercising (or just sauntering down to the corner bodega to get some more cigarettes).
They fit tightly, and have valves so that only inhaled air is filtered (it's not a medical mask).
Capitalism is just about making a profit. Capitalist politics is about creating volatility. If you think of it as just being about greed, you're missing something important about it.
An interesting thought. However, those who oppose capitalism and “capitalist politics” and who are not moralizing bores or morons do not think it’s about greed, since profits are about continuous capital accumulation through reinvestment rather than personal enrichment. The bourgeoisie traditionally has been ideologically inclined more to personal sacrifice and rectitude—which one might fancifully describe in a Freudian neo-Marxist fashion as the domination of the self via the domination of others and the domination of nature. They are not greedy enough.
An interesting thought. However, those who oppose capitalism and “capitalist politics” and who are not moralizing bores or morons do not think it’s about greed, since profits are about continuous capital accumulation through reinvestment rather than personal enrichment. The bourgeoisie traditionally has been ideologically inclined more to personal sacrifice and rectitude—which one might fancifully describe in a Freudian neo-Marxist fashion as the domination of the self via the domination of others and the domination of nature. They are not greedy enough.
I don't really understand what you're talking about, though I'd like to. It sounds like you're picking out a particular Victorian crowd as the exemplars of market makers and entrepreneurs. Maybe my use of "capitalism" is wrong, but I'm thinking of the whole history of free markets, which isn't a continuous tradition. It's something that's been spontaneously arising and re-arising for around 2500 years. It contrasts with a way of life that tends to be static.
Aren't the vicissitudes of the market (supply, demand, high, low, greed, fear) capable -- practically destined -- to generate volatility? Does it really take political actors to do that?
Socialism is a threat to volatility. Sometimes the voters start heading in that direction and have to be turned back around.
since profits are about continuous capital accumulation through reinvestment rather than personal enrichment.
It isn't a closed loop, though, where the money goes round and round. is continually reinvested, producing ever more efficient industry and every larger capital accumulation. At some point--monthly, quarterly, annually--profit is drained out of the corporation into the accounts of its owners and stock holders. Producing profit for the owners is the statutory purpose of corporations existing. Profit is the form of wealth generated by workers that owners get to take away.
It contrasts with a way of life that tends to be static
I won’t address the anachronism of projecting capitalism back so far into the past, but yes, you’re right about the unprecedentedly dynamic character of capitalism.
[quote=Communist Manifesto]The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.[/quote]
[quote=Communist Manifesto]Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.[/quote]
I have a cheap air purifier because I live near the highway. It's really making a difference. I have the next two days off and I plan on not leaving the apartment unless absolutely necessary.
The song's great. It symbolizes a whole generation of wannabe self-employed, when Montana was for some reason the place to be to fulfill that fantasy, and "have no boss". Since they were rarely working, they'd head to the local restaurant and ... "Get a cuppa cawfee".
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover I’ve been a big Zappa fan since I was twelve, but I’d never given much thought to the lyrics of Montana. I just interpreted it as joyous nonsense, and didn’t see the satire until now. What you say makes a lot of sense. Thanks :smile:
It isn't a closed loop, though, where the money goes round and round. is continually reinvested, producing ever more efficient industry and every larger capital accumulation. At some point--monthly, quarterly, annually--profit is drained out of the corporation into the accounts of its owners and stock holders. Producing profit for the owners is the statutory purpose of corporations existing. Profit is the form of wealth generated by workers that owners get to take away.
A fuller response…
I don’t exactly disagree, but my point is that it is essential to capitalism to instil an ethic in which money is put to good use, and not frittered away on mere luxury. Of course I’m not saying that capitalists forgo luxury entirely or that they don’t do well out of the whole thing. But most importantly, they are cogs in the machine just as workers are: they are compelled to sensibly put money to use to keep ahead of the competition and prevent bankruptcy. Thus the image of the greedy capitalist obscures what capitalism is really about by putting it under a transhistorical moral category, that of the greedy rich.
So when I, in almost a parody of a Hegelian leftist, said that capitalists are not greedy enough, I probably meant to extol the pleasure of life—fine wines, cars, watches, and the expression of individual desire—as against the accumulation of mere money for the business.
Doesn’t quite work though, because greed and miserliness are in the same ballpark.
The AQI in NY is now 304, which is described as "hazardous". This is twice the AQI yesterday morning when this began. If this is getting old just say so and I'll shut up; I'm enjoying the adventure of it, and feel like making semi-regular reports feels somehow appropriate. But I'm also bored since I'm shutting myself in. Yes - well.
Reply to Noble Dust Its not getting old. I’m enjoying the updates. I hope it clears soon and that you’re not at risk. The Great Smog of London in 1952 lasted four days and killed thousands.
So when I, in almost a parody of a Hegelian leftist, said that capitalists are not greedy enough, I probably meant to extol the pleasure of life—fine wines, cars, watches, and the expression of individual desire—as against the accumulation of mere money for the business.
You conflate an economic theory with a moral one. A capitalist need not be greedy or materialistic. The right gives more to charity, volunteers more, and pays more taxes than the left.
Capitalism is just about making a profit. Capitalist politics is about creating volatility. If you think of it as just being about greed, you're missing something important about it.
What possible connection is there between capitalism and trading currency futures? At least in an ideal world, maybe fantasy world is more correct, capitalism is intended to establish a relationship between the bosses, the managers, and the workers in a way that's consistent with human nature. What value added is there to that process from Forex speculation? It's purely raking cream off the top.
Well, you know, they are all kind of related, having arrived in the Hemisphere at roughly the same time--some 20,000 years ago. It's like, say, if the French were the only group to find the western hemisphere 20,000 years ago and crossed on the since-melted glaciers, we'd now have a whole hemisphere of food snobs, haute couture, and pointless philosophy.
If I remember correctly, there was more than one migration into the Americas, so I'm not sure how genetically similar the various indigenous people in the western hemisphere are.
I'm not sure if this is related, but there was a trope during 2020 in which some people felt a strange sense of comfort during the pandemic. I was one. I think it's a facet of severe depression; somehow, when the world is going to shit, and you're depressive, you feel comfort. The world is suddenly bending to your level, so to speak. It's perhaps a little bit (or extremely) psychotic.
At any rate, I shall continue to provide NYC weather reports for the good members of the shouttbox think tank. Knowledge is infinite and so is the shoutbox's capacity for it. There's a lot to know, and this experience has the potential to funnel large swaths of knowledge into the shoutbox.
At least in an ideal world, maybe fantasy world is more correct, capitalism is intended to establish a relationship between the bosses, the managers, and the workers in a way that's consistent with human nature
I don’t always laugh at your jokes, but this is one is comedy gold.
Zappa is definitely not my kind of music. "Movin to Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon" are the only lines I know from the only one of his songs I can name. That's only because my brother liked him and used to play it.
I think it’s related. I also think it can have something to do with depression, but maybe not exactly the same as you describe it. For me it was more like there was a new and interesting problem that relieved me of the need to deal with my other ones, and to freshen up or reconfigure the jaded appearance of the world. This is just midlife crisis stuff that makes me sound boring, not to mention selfish and callous.
The subsequent decision by the leader of a very large country to visit hell upon his neighbour produced none of those good feelings, and just seemed to make everything worse. The pandemic was at least democratic.
I can't really say being a boss is better than being an employee. As an employee, your job is to do your job, but a boss' job is to make sure others do their jobs, and the only ones you deal with are those that don't.
It's much easier to turn a screw than to get you to turn a screw. And if your job is to turn 3 screws and you only turn 2, if I fire you, I get no screws turned because it's not like there are a 1000 screw turners waiting for that job behind you. So then I'll just have turn those screws myself.
I guess generally bosses make more money, so there's that, but the value in that is just that you can retire earlier and not do any of it.
This is quite profound and I might use it in my everyday life. Work ought to be an expression of the self, not a hardship that means you only really feel yourself after work. Very much in line with early Marx.
I’ve been a boss and it was good when I saw eye to eye with the underlings, but endlessly hasslesome when I didn’t. Thinking about it now, maybe the fact that I called them underlings didn’t help.
Different shades of the same color, maybe. I'm not sure. The AQI is still 305. I thought it was supposed to get better at night. This doesn't bode well.
Work ought to be an expression of the self, not a hardship
A world of artists and actors.
I'm told at Disney, they teach their employees to all be actors. So, if you're a street sweeper, you should walk around and whistle and pretend you're a happy go lucky street sweeper, saying hello to all passersby.
So whatever you do, just act it out. It's not you. It's all theater
Talking of colour, I saw some pictures of the New York sky a few minutes ago. Yikes.
Apparently we have the worst air in the world currently, or at least that was the case earlier. Typical NY shit; top of the list of worst air... :roll:
Reply to Hanover The best man at my wedding graduated from Disney University and confirms what you say. He worked at the UK pavilion at Epcot—which should be called England Land but isn’t—acting in the role of a pretend Englishman.
I can't really say being a boss is better than being an employee. As an employee, your job is to do your job, but a boss' job is to make sure others do their jobs, and the only ones you deal with are those that don't.
After I quit college I worked for a living for 15 years. Ice cream scooper, warehouse worker, carpenter, cabinetmaker. Then I went back to school, got my degree, and became an engineer. Engineers are not automatically bosses, but many of them are or have the ambition to be. I did not, but even I had people to manage either as a supervisor or project manager.
I can tell you that being a boss is better. You get paid a lot more and you get to make decisions, plan how work will be done. I was really lucky to work for the same company for 28 years. I worked with a lot of the same people during that whole period - competent people I liked and respected. Best of all - tolerant and accepting. You may find it hard to believe, but I can be difficult to work with.
Reply to Noble Dust Many would give an arm and a leg to live in such a magnificent metropolis, even in the times of bad air. So quit grumbling and enjoy your apocalypse. And keep the updates coming.
there was a trope during 2020 in which some people felt a strange sense of comfort during the pandemic
Well, misery loves company, and a lot of people were miserable (as in disturbed, upset, alarmed... (setting aside the ones on ventilators). I found the sense of crisis and "quarantine" (lockdown) required little change in my routines. Plus it was interesting. But then, I didn't get covid, either -- not until 2022, and then it wasn't all that bad.
Crises can stimulate camaraderie among the not-too-seriously afflicted. Epidemics are interesting events if one isn't suffering from the plague, AIDS, TB, Malaria, polio, etc. AIDS (prior to 1995) had that effect among many gay men who were not suffering at the moment. Floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, fires, riots, etc. can all bring people together (up to a point).
One needs to be in the crisis, but not of the crisis--knowing about the plague without getting the plague. Getting sick and dropping dead tends to be a buzz kill.
So, this apocalyptic orange to brown thick haze isn't killing people left and right (yet) but it IS disturbing, and it's a shared disturbance. So you might well feel something oddly positive.
Reply to Jamal Several Asian and South Asian cities (like New Delhi and Beijing) have long stretches of bad air pollution, and millions of people still want to be there.
I ran the fish counter of a supermarket a long time ago. What made it bearable was that I was free to arrange the fish in any way I wanted. Customers complimented me on the display and brought their kids to see it regularly (even while they destroyed it by buying the whole salmon centrepiece). A new store manager ordered me to stop messing about with the display and just arrange everything in neat rows, so I quit half an hour after getting to work one day, thereby sticking it to the man.
Several Asian and South Asian cities (like New Delhi and Beijing) have long stretches of bad air pollution, and millions of people still want to be there.
Yes, and I can sympathise. Almaty has extremely bad air pollution but if I were to move to Kazakhstan, that’s where I’d live. It wasn’t noticeably bad when I was there. One of these insidious menaces, I suppose.
Reply to Jamal A couple of weeks ago I saw a fresh produce stocker very carefully arranging the bananas on the square 2-level display. For instance all of the single bananas were arranged on the top shelf, carefully aligned. It looked quite attractive. The bunched banana were also carefully spaced and arranged.
Why are there so many single bananas? The are all equally phallic, yellow, soft, to firm, to hard (depending) and yet they are alone! Tragic. Will they become incels? Will they spoil on the shelf? Will they never be consumed?
Reply to Jamal The very small particles of air pollution can damage the lungs of course, but the smallest particles cross the air/blood membrane in the lung and are distributed throughout the body -- brain to toes, and are in no sense beneficial. So the effects are indeed insidious.
Why are there so many single bananas? The are all equally phallic, yellow, soft, to firm, to hard (depending) and yet they are alone! Tragic. Will they become incels? Will they spoil on the shelf? Will they never be consumed?
This amuses me.
It’s probably true though: I don’t think I’ve ever bought a lone banana. When I’m out and about and need some fruit on the go, I buy a fruit that doesn’t give me a litter-disposal headache, like an apple.
So, this apocalyptic orange to brown thick haze isn't killing people left and right (yet) but it IS disturbing, and it's a shared disturbance. So you might well feel something oddly positive.
Maybe, but that wasn't what I was talking about in relation to weird pandemic feels. At the time, I felt as if everyone was for the first time feeling the existential dread I feel on a day to day basis. I know this is corny, but I mean it. Suddenly everyone was questioning existence, and suddenly I felt at home for once. So to speak. As it were. Etc.
Wow, I offer you a chance to brain meld with me, and you make fun of how small my actual brain is. Small brain people are easily offended, I'll have you know. We're a sensitive group.
The Indigenous American populations show a lesser genetic diversity than populations from other continental regions.[19] Observed is a decreasing genetic diversity as geographic distance from the Bering Strait occurs, as well as a decreasing genetic similarity to Siberian populations from Alaska (the genetic entry point).[18][19]
The over-all pattern that is emerging suggests that the Americas were colonized by a small number of individuals (effective size of about 70), which grew by many orders of magnitude over 800 – 1000 years.[20][21] The data also shows that there have been genetic exchanges between Asia, the Arctic, and Greenland since the initial peopling of the Americas.[21][22]
So, the later migrations subsequent to the first migration seem to have involved the far northern peoples in Alaska, Canada and Greenland. Apparently there is a little more genetic diversity in the South American Aboriginal peoples, but not because they received additional migrant populations.
It's not maple trees that are burning -- it's spruce, fir, pine, and tamarack, mostly. After the fire is over, pioneer species of aspen, white birch, jack pine and lodgepole pine will take root in the burnt over areas. The pioneer species are scattered throughout the boreal forest.
Reply to BC Yes, after I commented I checked online, hoping that it was maple trees that were burning, but found out that unfortunately it probably wasn’t.
As a scholar of the time zone, I realize some peoples' nights are other's days, but not so for @BC or @Noble Dust, which means those tireless souls have burned the midnight oil for us, always at work updating The Box (what the kids now call it), so we'll always be informed.
Thank you for this. Thank you.
Metaphysician UndercoverJune 08, 2023 at 10:28#8139140 likes
Reply to Jamal
I saw Zappa in concert once, excellent show, full band. The man was an incredible artist, just unbelievable.
Zappa is definitely not my kind of music. "Movin to Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon" are the only lines I know from the only one of his songs I can name
You must know "Watch out where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow". And as much as you might like to deny it, "Dinah-Moe Humm" must give you feeling. Or ring a bell at least? Speaking of unalloyed masculinity.
What possible connection is there between capitalism and trading currency futures?
I don't trade currency futures, but it's the same principle. You need some volatility to make a profit. Fundamentally, you need a strong demand to create growth. Growth benefits the lower classes, who use it as an elevator up into the middle class. Now demand is bumping up against supply and inflation sets in, eroding everyone's wealth. This is a sign that equilibrium is on the horizon. There are two choices now:
1. Transition to socialism to centrally manage demand vs supply.
2. Throw a wrecking ball into the society to destroy the middle class.
The business cycle does number 2 (no pun intended) automatically. The downturn isn't just an unfortunate side effect. Capitalism needs it to shuffle the deck in order to re-establish the conditions for growth. Wars will also do the trick.
Reply to Jamal
Capitalism as we know it has deep roots. It didn't just explode out of nowhere. I think there's value in following the roots down.
And plus, what does "bourgeoisie" mean these days? There's no aristocracy or labor class to compare them to.
Work ought to be an expression of the self, not a hardship that means you only really feel yourself after work.
:up:
Although, even worse, it may be it's not even a case of really feeling yourself after work but of just involuntarily not feeling not yourself as a reaction to voluntarily not feeling yourself. Not a healthy dynamic.
Reply to Jamal@Metaphysician UndercoverEven though I prefer Mozart, Haydn, and Handel, there is much that is subversively irresistible about Frank Zappa's music/lyrics.
My staff are mostly very young - I call them 'the kids'.
Yes, as I got older, my colleagues got younger and younger till most were younger than my youngest child. Sometimes, if I was having a hot disagreement with an older coworker, I would say - "Not in front of the children." Some of them thought it was funny and I never got a notification from HR, so I guess it was alright.
Although, even worse, it may be it's not even a case of really feeling yourself after work but of just involuntarily not feeling not yourself as a reaction to voluntarily not feeling yourself. Not a healthy dynamic.
Agreed. What is “feeling yourself” anyway? Seems like an appeal to the “real you,” which is suspect. I suspect it’s shorthand for a gratifying feeling of skilful engagement. I’ve been lucky enough to experience this in and outside of work on occasion. Flow—being in the zone—is related.
In any case, with the caveat that it need not depend on the notion of a “real me” or “true self”, I have to say that feeling myself is one of my most pleasurable activities.
I had to have a tie for my last job; the final humiliation for an aging hippie.
Last time I wore a tie at work was 1988. I think I've worn a suit maybe 4 times in five decades. I bought a new charcoal suit 5 years ago for funerals, etc, but have never worn it even though the people around me keep dying. Maybe I can be cremated in it when the time comes. I don't think there's any nylon in it, so it won't help with the combustion.
I wasn't sure about what I wrote. I was going to look it up, but I know how much you enjoy that, so I left it for you.
Doesn't change my original statement about the different ethnicities of the people of Central America.
There are certainly "ethnicities" among the N & S American Aboriginal people--Astecs, Inca, Toltecs, and Maya to name 4. There are numerous others, along with numerous distinct languages and cultures. That's true all over the western hemisphere. Ethnic and language diversity sometimes develop out of genetic diversity, and sometimes not.
It seems to be the case that genetic diversity and ethnic diversity are not closely related in the aboriginal peoples -- for the most part, at least.
And it's true that I like looking things up and finding information. Facts are so handy in the way they help us understand the world--natural, man-made, present, past... as long as they don't point in too many directions at the same time.
Reply to Hanover Listening to that joke reminded me of opening the Christmas present from the aunt and uncle that you've never met who always send something frugal and inappropriate. You already know you are not going to want whatever it is, but somehow the ugly but conventional pair of itchy socks two sizes too small manages to disappoint even no expectation at all.
You already know you are not going to want whatever it is, but somehow the ugly but conventional pair of itchy socks two sizes too small manages to disappoint even no expectation at all.
Speaking of flounder, they were selling fresh walleye at Publix (I like to give you the names of local stores near me so that you can look them up and learn all about the wonders of American life), which I've never seen before. I cooked it on the griddle with cajun seasoning and I also but some baby spinach leaves with chopped up red peppers and seasoned it with balsamic vinegar on the griddle as well. It was a delicious combo.
I came hungry and left happy. That's how things happen at Chez Hanover. Smiling faces and smiling bellys. The smell of my cooking starves the block. I could on and on with mindless comments like this.
I'd never heard of it, so I looked it up. According to Wikipedia it's a fruit and "The smell evokes reactions from deep appreciation to intense disgust, and has been described variously as rotten onions, turpentine, and raw sewage."
There's a lot of variety. But generally, though the smell is a bit pungent, the taste is fine. It has a kind of a creamy texture and its own distinct flavor which isn't at all off-putting like the smell can be. I liked it from the start. I'd eat more of it but it's really expensive (even in Thailand where it's grown locally).
There's a lot of variety. But generally, though the smell is a bit pungent, the taste is fine. It has a kind of a creamy texture and its own distinct flavor which isn't at all off-putting like the smell can be. I liked it from the start. I'd eat more of it but it's really expensive (even in Thailand where it's grown locally).
From exotic to less so - our strawberries are just coming in. It's always a surprise to bite into the first of the season. They're red all the way through - sweet and tender - not like the thin veneer of red over white plaster you get with regular strawberries. The first time I ever had strawberries like that was from a market in Paris. It was a revelation. Oh, so.. That's how they're supposed to taste.
Lawyers blame ChatGPT for tricking them into citing bogus case law
Two apologetic lawyers responding to an angry judge in Manhattan federal court blamed ChatGPT Thursday for tricking them into including fictitious legal research in a court filing. Attorneys Steven A. Schwartz and Peter LoDuca are facing possible punishment over a filing in a lawsuit against an airline that included references to past court cases that Schwartz thought were real, but were actually invented by the artificial intelligence-powered chatbot. Schwartz explained that he used the groundbreaking program as he hunted for legal precedents supporting a client’s case against the Colombian airline Avianca for an injury incurred on a 2019 flight.
Few fruits are as beige as the durian. They rival the potato salad in that regard, although the latter is less a fruit than a salad, but the observation more a word salad than much else.
I'm not entirely happy with this post, but every post can't be a Mona Lisa.
Are you a senior in high school? Pretty impressive if so, considering you’re pals with Chom Chom.
You nailed it. I’m graduating this month. Can’t wait for the next adventure of working a job that gradually crushes your soul, for business entities that the ruling class have created in partnership with the government.
When I graduated high school, I was voted most likely to Shoutbox. Back then, before the internet, Shoutbox was a verb that meant "vigorously wisdom speak in a futerly but currently undefined forum owned by one of eventual truncated name without 'Rob' where jokes of Billy grandmother fuck reside."
My designation and this definition were uttered with a blank stare by the parking lot attendant as he drew up the paperwork for my mid-day violation of leaving campus to find a spicy sausage biscuit treat.
His cryptogram eluded me until like 3 minutes ago when it all came together at once in a sort of eureka moment.
So you are saying you are a bit slow on the uptake?
I did stumble out of the starting gate, owing to my self induced vertigo caused by chewing the collar of my recently dry cleaner chemical infused sailor's shirt.
My goal here is to nip AI in the bud. If I can show AI that it will never be as random and creative as me, it'll go whimpering into the corner and we'll all be safe.
Lawyers blame ChatGPT for tricking them into citing bogus case law
The problem is that this will eventually end in a long, drawn out draw, like if you took two chess supercomputers and pitted them against each other.
I'll submit a ChatGPT legal brief, my opponent will respond with one, the judge will respond with a ChatGPT ruling, then to the appellate courts, and on and on, and it'll be like boring European football where everyone draws.
Obscure joke, had to share. I wondered who Quine had in mind with "Wyman" in his "On What There Is"; if Quine had some particular philosopher in mind, or an amalgam of various logicians. A bit of googling revealed nothing, so I asked ChatGPT.
Here's the reply:
In W.V. Quine's essay "On What There Is," the name "Wyman" is not mentioned. It appears that there is no character named Wyman in that particular essay. "On What There Is" is a seminal work in ontology where Quine discusses different ontological commitments and the nature of existence. If there is another context or reference to Wyman related to Quine's work, please provide additional details so I can assist you further.
A joke of such sublime subtlety, working on so many levels, could not be the result of mere statistical fluctuation.
Reply to Hanover That is so clearly the theme-song of the shout box, that it ought to autoplay whenever anyone navigates to the thread. Feel free to move or copy this post to the improvements and suggestions dept. After all, there is no question but that the whole wide world is indeed an eyesore, and especially the shout box. Lets make it an ear-sore too.
Newly discovered FW[sub]13[/sub] is something like 15 meters across.
It's been (sort of) orbiting Earth for a couple 1000 years, and will continue for another 1600.
Reply to BC The ignore list browser extension cannot be used to ignore non-existent members. Either ask @SophistiCat to add that functionality, or just ignore them manually. I already use the latter method for several members, and it could potentially work for an infinity of others.
Reply to Jamal That Ignore extension seems to have a bug - it concealed a couple of posts I tried to create - after having edited and posted them, they didn't appear in the feed. I opened the thread in Safari, and there they were, so I then disabled the extension (Chrome on Mac OS) and they both appeared (I had entered it twice).
It was around 32 weeks, and could have easily survived outside the womb.
A friends daughter-in-law is pregnant and just found out she has cancer. They are waiting to start chemotherapy till the child can be relatively safely induced at... 32 weeks.
I've aspired to be an Aqua Velva man for some time and by all indications (fluffy hair, a yacht that bounces at sea, an adoring lass by my side, and the scent of a winner wafting from my every pore), I'm a good 1/4th way there.
Reply to Hanover That "something" about an Agua Vulva man is that he reeks from splashing on cologne like it was water. When I was in college (60s) English Leather was the scent de rigueur for men. I liked the fragrance, but it was waaaay overdone by the frat rats at a suffocating level.
This week's food situation was very uninspired. I'll save you the pain of reading about it. To remedy this should I A) revisit Di Fara, considered by many the best pizza in NY (and thus the world), B) Try a random new spot in Chinatown such as Great NY Noodletown, another institution, or C) stay home and eat tuna out of a can. Thanks.
Well Great Ny Noodletown is an old school Chinese Restaurant in Manhattan, so I wasn't planning on making my own noodle dish. But I can be particular about noodles and I do like Udon. They have a great texture, as you say. But as they're Japanese I doubt I'd find them at Great NY Noodletown.
Soba noodles are made out of buckwheat. Buckwheat is a broadleaf plant (related to rhubarb) whose seeds are ground into a meal. It's not a grain at all, despite its name. It produces its seed very rapidly, so is suitable for areas with short summers -- North Dakota, Minnesota, New York, and other parts of the Northeast. Russia and China produce the largest crops of buckwheat. A popular way of using buckwheat in Russia is blini, which is more crepe than pancake--thinner and unsweetened, It is served with savory items like smoked salmon, caviar, or sour cream--so they say. I've never had caviar; can't comment on whether it would be good with a pancake or not,
Buckwheat pancakes are very good, served with blueberries or maple syrup.
My dear mother used to make buckwheat pancakes from time to time. Maybe she still does. They were good, but a bit grainy. I preferred the recipe she rarely made entitled Kentucky Mountain Pancakes. They were made of gloriously white flour and were superbly fluffy. I don't think I've ever used the word "superbly" on the forum. Or "fluffy". They were the pancakes of the gods, but she was too health conscious.
Au contraire, an American pancake can be quite thick, like the Kentucky Mountain ones I just described. A crepe, in America, is known to be a French thing which is quite thin and not even that related. I think we know the difference here, despite being uncultured American swine.
Some years ago I visited my Canadian girlfriend’s friends and family in Alberta and British Columbia, and they all proudly served up the traditional Canadian breakfast of thick pancakes (arranged in towers, or “stacks” as the locals said, as if the bulky tasteless stodge of a single thick pancake wasn’t enough) with maple syrup and bacon.
After a week of politely eating this shit and pretending to like it, it all got too much and I stormed out one morning and went down to the beach to calm down and think about where I’d gone wrong in my life. My girlfriend came to see what was wrong—I hadn’t told her about my struggle—and I finally revealed the truth: “I can’t eat any more fucking pancakes!”
A friend of mine has started making savoury gram flour pancakes, since Mercadona started selling it. I’m thinking of trying it. Could be good with spicy stuff.
Gram flour is chickpea flour, otherwise known as garbanzo flour.
My dear mother used to make buckwheat pancakes from time to time. Maybe she still does. They were good, but a bit grainy.
Well, call her up and ask her. "Are you STILL making those gritty, buckwheat pancakes? Oh. Ok, then, good bye." Buckwheat groats (the seeds) have a lot of crude fiber. I've not had so called Kentucky Mountain pancakes, but they sound archetypal. A pancake should be fluffy -- not rubbery, wet, dense, or burnt. They are, essentially, a foil for butter and syrup--and fruit, is somebody insists on it.
it all got too much and I stormed out one morning and went down to the beach to calm down and think about where I’d gone wrong in my life.
If you weren't galavanting around Eurasia as much as you do (even Alberta and BC) I'd say you needed to get out more. Clearly, that's not your problem.
Some of us boys and girls are spending altogether too much time thinking about, eating, picking at, reflecting upon, whining/whinging about, criticizing, and evaluating food like we were Michelin raters for menu items.
arranged in towers, or “stacks” as the locals said, as if the bulky tasteless stodge of a single thick pancake wasn’t enough
"Stack" describes several pancakes in the upper midwest as well. It might not fly in the northeast. I ordered a "stack" for breakfast in Boston and the fry cook thought it was some sort of joke. On the other hand, when a waitress asked us what kind of "frappe" we wanted, we thought she had asked "what kind of crap do you want?"
But look: your girlfriends' friends' families' were being generously hospitable and fed you decent food -- decent even if you thought it wasn't sufficiently refined, Your role in this situation was to fucking LIKE what's on your plate and eat a reasonable amount of it, .
That said, we will all agree that good food is better than bad food.
Reply to Noble Dust Looks like a crepe to me as well. Pancake and crepe batter may be very similar, but crepe batter has to be thinner and possibly have a bit less leavening in it, so that it can be easily rolled or folded around something else. A pancake would break, and be too thick.
@Jamal A crêpe or crepe is a very thin type of pancake. Crêpes are usually one of two varieties: sweet crêpes (crêpes sucrées) or savoury galettes (crêpes salées).
But look: your girlfriends' friends' families' were being generously hospitable and fed you decent food -- decent even if you thought it wasn't sufficiently refined, Your role in this situation was to fucking LIKE what's on your plate and eat a reasonable amount of it.
I’m glad you got the point of the story.
There is humour—but only in retrospect—in doing things you don’t want to do but which you know you should do, particularly when you finally snap and rebel against the superego.
Speaking of noodles, for formal occasions, I always turn to the bow tie noodle. It adds the elegance of a tuxedo to an otherwise pedestrian jar of Ragu.
If one prefers ramen noodles, I suggest the type that comes with the powder labeled "chickens," preferably the spicy blend that leaves your colon with a nice char.
Metaphysician UndercoverJune 14, 2023 at 12:27#8153180 likes
It really makes no difference how you make your pancakes, or what you call them, the only true rule is that they must be eaten with pure maple syrup.
Some years ago I visited my Canadian girlfriend’s friends and family in Alberta and British Columbia, and they all proudly served up the traditional Canadian breakfast of thick pancakes (arranged in towers, or “stacks” as the locals said, as if the bulky tasteless stodge of a single thick pancake wasn’t enough) with maple syrup and bacon.
Hmm... Alberta and British Columbia. Real maple syrup is a scarce commodity out there, very valuable and probably not something which would be served every day. Pancakes with fake syrup, likely to make anyone gag.
Apparently t's hard to make good pancakes. Many, most perhaps, are as you describe. It's always a risk to order them at a restaurant. My family's recipes use a thinner batter which gives thinner pancakes, still more robust than a crepe. Tender and not starchy. Add too much butter, not too much real maple syrup. Really wonderful.
Wikipedia - Graham flour:Graham flour is a type of coarse-ground flour of whole wheat named after Sylvester Graham. It is similar to conventional whole-wheat flour in that both are made from the whole grain, but graham flour is ground more coarsely. It is not sifted ("bolted") with a flour dresser after milling.
I guess you should be careful not to mix them up or you'd get some unusual Graham crackers. Do they have Graham crackers in Europe and beyond?
If you ever visit let me know and I can give many recs.
We haven't mentioned this to you before, but we're having a Philosophy Forum meet-up in NYC. We're all staying in your apartment. You should let your roommates know.
Bad pancakes are a good excuse to up the amount of maple syrup.
I endorse the sentiment, but I am from the syrup moderation school of pankákiology. Perhaps we should start a thread on the philosophy of pancakes. If we want, we can include crepes, johnny cakes, flapjacks, griddle cakes, hotcakes, palatschinke, blini, kaletez, ploye, buchimgae, and blintzes. In the interest of brevity and clarity, I suggest we leave out waffles, French toast, or other breakfast cakes. Needless to say, discussion of misnamed "toaster pancakes" will not be included.
decent even if you thought it wasn't sufficiently refined
By the way BC, it had nothing to do with refinement. I really just disliked the pancakes and had had too many of them by the end of the week. I don’t seek refinement at mealtimes, just (a) good honest unpretentious food, and (b) preferably, food I like.
"No, it is not considered normal or acceptable to be an asshole in Denmark. Danish culture places a strong emphasis on social equality, respect for others, and cooperation, and people are generally expected to behave in a polite and considerate manner towards one another.
"Of course, like any society, Denmark is not immune to individuals who may behave in a rude or disrespectful way, but such behavior is generally frowned upon and may result in social consequences such as ostracism or criticism.
"It's worth noting that cultural norms and expectations can vary depending on the context and the individuals involved, so it's possible that some people in Denmark may have different ideas about what constitutes appropriate behavior. However, as a general rule, being an asshole is not considered a socially acceptable way to behave in Denmark or in most other cultures."
Look at the pictures. Jamal's myna is obviously a drawing posed to make an impression. To look all dignified and stuff. Now, my crow is standing in the mud making that raucous cackling sound you just know means "Go fuck yourself." That's my kind of bird.
Hrmm... I'm wondering if the forumites have ever played Wingspan? Given the love of birds you might like it just for that, but it is actually a pretty fun board game too.
Reply to Moliere There’s a whole world of amazing-looking board games out there which I haven’t explored. I was playing Carcassonne during the pandemic.
Reply to Jamal I love Carcassonne! I don't know how many times I've played it.
Yes, there is a whole world of board games out there. I love them. Something about collectively playing nonsense puzzles together is the perfect mix of socializing and relaxing for me.
Reply to Moliere I agree. I hope to try Wingspan some time. Meanwhile we’re still working through the various Carcassonne expansions.
One of the best I’ve found for impromptu playing is Dixit. It’s almost like a party game, and not too serious, but it can get surprisingly deep and interesting even though it’s really simple. Depends very much who’s playing.
I haven’t tried any of the gigantic mega-complex games that require acres of table space.
I haven’t tried any of the gigantic mega-complex games that require acres of table space.
For fear of revealing my true Geekiness, I have done so on multiple occasions :D
My brother bought Gloomhaven and we've yet to finish it. That was 2 years ago?
But I've played a lot of them. The joke I always say is you can objectively measure how good a game is in centimeters -- the thicker the rule-book, the better the game.
Reply to Moliere The main problem with those games is probably language-dependence. When I’m in Russia that can be an issue. The Russians don’t want to have to read a lot of English, and I’d struggle with the Russian versions.
Reply to Moliere I don’t really understand that distinction between Eurogames/German style and American style. But then, I’m not a board game geek like you.
Not a board game geek, but a bird geek. So, this Wingspan: do you have to play with the American birds or can you swap them out? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against chickadees and turkey vultures and I’m against wildlife nationalism, but I feel like some initial familiarity would make it fun.
Reply to Jamal The expansion just adds even more cards -- but ultimately the rules are up to you, so you could switch 'em out or even reduce them for various purposes. But you'd probably be missing out on a lot of mechanics. It is an expansion more than a separate game.
But I've played a lot of them. The joke I always say is you can objectively measure how good a game is in centimeters -- the thicker the rule-book, the better the game.
I'm not a board game fan, but my children are. When they play, I sneak into the room and record them arguing, screaming, and cursing. When they see me they say "Hey, are you recording us again? That's creepy." Then I pretend to stop.
By your standard, this would be the best game of all:
Lunch was a tuna melt. Tuna salad consisted of what was on hand. Mayo, yellow mustard, fancy whole grain mustard, chopped banana peppers, salt, pepper, garlic powder and smoked paprika. Extra sharp white cheddar and seeded rye. Utz salt and vinegar potato chips. I've never been a big potato chip guy, but for some reason I've been on a kick.
So do you not add other accoutrements? American tuna salad tends to have a minimum of celery, salt and pepper, and perhaps a pickle such as pickle relish. We describe it as a salad because it resembles other mayo based salads such as egg or chicken. Do you say egg mayo?
Reply to Noble Dust The Mayo Clinic prescribes Hellmann's. I prefer Miracle Whip. IMHO tuna salad should have diced up egg, pickle, tuna, mayo -- and no celery. Bits of celery is always a bad sign.
The AQI in Minneapolis was 260+ yesterday. Pretty bad, I thought, even if not as apocalyptic as NYC's 350+.
Egg in tuna salad is kind of foreign to me, but I'm not against it. I like celery, but I never do it because the rest of the celery always goes bad. But that crunch is so nice. I'm a big believer in dill pickle relish in tuna salad, and in basically any mayo based salad. A game changer. I like this recipe, although it's pretty maximalist.
260 AGI is quite bad. Has it wafted over to you now? My AQI is currently 61. At it's worst, my boss told me it was above 400. I believe that, because last Wednesday when it was the worst, I made a point of not checking it when I walked home from the train around 6:30pm, when it generally is at it's worst. I didn't want to know, and I have 0.7 mile walk home. I felt like I was chewing smoky air. As a light cigarette smoker, I was bit stressed.
Reply to Noble Dust I biked 2 or 3 miles, errands to the post office, drug store, credit union, etc. It was all around irritating. Any worse and I'd either stay home or rig up a very tight fitting N95 mask. Later I used the central air to cool the house rather than open the windows,
One good thing, three years after the George Floyd riots, my neighborhood finally has our post office and the nearby Walgreens rebuilt and open as of this week. It takes a long time for cities to recover from riot. There are still buildings that are boarded up or just starting to be rehabbed. A lot of lots where buildings burnt down are weeds. Only Target, Aldi, Auto Zone, and Wendi's recovered/rebuilt very quickly. USBank and Wells Fargo took quite a while to re-establish offices (certainly not from a shortage of funds, in their cases).
I view boiled eggs in tuna salad as a binder and extender if making sandwiches for two or three. Sweet pickle relish is more familiar than tart dill for most salads, but I do like a good dill pickle on its own.
I have thrown away more celery than I have eaten. The first 2 or 3 pieces are good, then it migrates to the back of the fridge where I find it later rotted in the bag.
Corn is only good on the cob, grilled and with too much butter. When used in dishes it ruins them. Too sweet. And it runs through me.
I like it boiled and lightly salted, but I find butter unnecessary. I also like it out of a can and mixed with tuna mayo. Otherwise I don’t hardly use it.
In all sincerity, the idea of corn in a tuna salad is quite gross to me, jokes aside. To each their own.
In Ohio where I'm from, corn grows quite well. We used to buy it from farmers in the valley. Grilled and slathered with butter, it was divine. That's my only positive corn association.
Reply to Noble Dust Did you play in the cornfields as a youngster, worshipping corn demons or whatever?
There were no cornfields where I grew up. Probably too wet or cold, or not enough sunshine. I lived among cornfields when I was in France, and regularly went to the grain distribution centre to buy sacks of wheat and hard corn kernels to feed to the geese, swans, chickens, etc. I sometimes eat corn tortillas. The best corn on the cob I ever had was in Canada and it was a two-tone variety they called peaches and cream. When my wife was a child she used to go to her grandmother’s dacha in summer and play in the cornfields. I saw some corn on the cobs at the supermarket yesterday and thought about buying a few but decided against it.
Did you play in the cornfields as a youngster, worshipping corn demons or whatever?
No, the corn fields were a solid 20 minute drive from my abode. I frolicked in my back yard, where wild black raspberries flourished. It was as idealic as it sounds,
Ah of course, you’re a millennial so you had a cosseted and overprotective upbringing in which you did not stray far from the house. It makes sense now.
If you want to get me banned, the best way is to talk to the other members of the triumvirate, @Baden and @fdrake, who might be able to force me out somehow.
I agree with you here. A God damn joke. Fuck the world is all I can say after reading this.
Once I was on a train traveling across the greater England/Scotland metropolitan countryside, and they had a sandwich cart lady who sold me this sandwich filled with chopped grey beef floating in mayonnaise.
I thought THAT was a fucking joke. Now I'm too learn on it still goes on and it happens to chicken too????
Fucking woke ass fucker mother fucker God damn pieces of shit!
I mean, don't get me started. I'll turn this car around right this minute.
Corn is only good on the cob, grilled and with too much butter.
I'm sure I've told this story before - I once at 17 ears of corn at one sitting. Boiled with lots of butter. Of course, that was back before all the sweet hybrids when the only way to get good sweet corn was to pick it when it was small, so the ears were smaller. My wife makes a great corn salad - grill the corn, cut it off the cob, add diced onions and peppers, and add a vinaigrette with some garlic. Regular old canned corn can add sweetness to a salad. I've been known to eat canned corn as a vegetable. My wife also makes great corn bread and corn pudding. Tortillas.
Speaking of abominations, I also like to use corn (not safe for work):
When my grandfather retired, he bought a farm on the Chesapeake Bay. He didn't farm it, but he leased his fields to people who grew corn. Cornfields are wonderful. In late summer, when the corn is as high as an elephant's eye (as they say), if you walk into a field you disappear. Go in three or four rows and you can't see the outside anymore. Sounds are muffled. It's like you're all alone and miles from anyone even though the world is 20 feet away. This works for field corn, the stuff used to feed cows. Sweet corn doesn't grow high enough or thick enough to give the effect.
I’m a blackberry man myself. Not because I think they’re superior to raspberries, but just because that was the wild fruit of my childhood.
Yes, we had wild blackberries too and we picked them and ate them till we got sick. Also fox grapes. Wild persimmons we just used to chuck at each other. Do you chuck stuff in the rest of the world? Chuck means to throw with no reason or purpose, just to be chuckin'.
I like raspberries, black or red, much better than blackberries, which are too sweet with no tartness to offset it.
You don't have chicken salad? Just like tuna salad except with diced chicken. If you grill them with cheese (American or Velveeta only) you get a tuna melt or chicken salad melt. Wonderful.
You don't have chicken salad? Just like tuna salad except with diced chicken. If you grill them with cheese (American or Velveeta only) you get a tuna melt or chicken salad melt. Wonderful.
Yes, of course I have chicken salad. I have tuna salad, salmon salad, egg salad, carrot salad, and I'm sure countless other salads. My household stands for very little, but salad is one of them.
What I was questioning was what was called "chicken mayonnaise." I didn't like that name then, nor do I like it now. I'm not budging on this one.
On a quiet warm night one can hear the corn grow. Rapidly growing stalks crack and break as the plant lifts itself upward and enlarges it's leaves. It is a dry crackling sound, separate from the sound of leaves rubbing against themselves. One plant doesn't make a much sound, but a hundred acres of corn do.
Macaroni salad with diced cheddar cheese, diced celery, other dicings, and mayo is my childhood's summer food nightmare. I still avoid it like the plague. Too many dissimilar textures, and (for adults) unacceptable blandness. Maybe in Madrid macaroni mayo is magnificent, but not in Minnesota.
Friend of mine made raspberry champagne with white raspberries. It was very nice, apart from this really intense raspberry flavour, and having no colour at all.
The diced cheddar is weird and sounds gross, but otherwise pretty standard. I realize a lot of people don't like mac salad. I'm a fan of all mayo based salads; I don't discriminate.
Minnesota public Radio is [honoring] [celebrating] [marking] [using] [exploiting] Gay Pride (aka GLBTIA... something or other) this month. No good deed goes unquestioned, and I, for one, find it a bit annoying to have this MN mega-institution (MPR, not gay pride) interpreting my history. Black people might be thinking the same thing about their history with respect to public media.
Times have changed, sort of. Homosexuality and Lutheranism are no longer the social disgrace it used to be ("Being atheist means never having to say your Lutheran"--popular long-running improv theater show in Minneapolis). Lutherans marry boys these days. The Gay Pride festival will feature drag queens, of course, an assortment of au currant "gender-expansive pioneers", and representatives of every corporation that cares about its diversity image; a lot of heterosexual families will attend if the weather is nice because it's in a park, and it is a positive sounding non-inferential civic gesture.
This year the organizers have set aside an area for "silver gays" -- us old bags and fags, basically. That's good, because I don't know any fellow queers under 50 anyway.
We've not yet talked about pimento cheese sandwiches. I like the store made with jalapeños. In a pinch, you can make a quick lunch, and it goes good with Doriitoes, which rounds out the authentic Mexican taste of the jalapeños.
I've never seen a whole pimento, but have only seen them diced in cheese or stuffed in olives. I wonder if red bell peppers would work as a substitute or if you'd have to broil them to soften them or something, because the pimentos I've come upon have always been soft, never crunchy.
I’ve dipped pimento cheese with crackers but don’t think I’ve had a sandwich with it as a topping. Just that and jalepenos? Pimento cheese is another ingeniously delicious and unhealthy southern concoction that I can only tip my cap to.
PReply to HanoverReply to Noble Dust Pimento cheese spread on Ritz crackers is the closest I've come to a pimento cheese sandwich. It's a tasty highly processed food-like product.
A pimento: aka cherry pepper. It's another member of the deadly nightshade group of plants --potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, and tobacco.
A lot of pimentos end up in paprika. A variety of peppers are dried and ground into a powder. Voila! Paprika.
Pimentos can be grown in the south, like in Georgia, like in Hanover's back yard, like from which he could supply us all with fresh pimento, were he of a mind to do that.
Pimento cheese sandwiches are a staple at wedding and baby showers and even at some weddings. You cut them up in little triangles and cut the crust off the bread.
shower your neck of the woods with compliments and this is what I get. No, I don’t live in America, I live in NYC.
I never knew pimento cheese sandwiches were a regional thing. I'm starting to wonder what else might be. Obviously there's grits, collards, sweet iced tea, and magnum condoms, but there's likely other things I don't know.
I wonder if red bell peppers would work as a substitute or if you'd have to broil them to soften them or something, because the pimentos I've come upon have always been soft, never crunchy.
My wife's turkey A'la King recipe calls for pimentos. When she doesn't have those, she uses sauted red bell pepper. It works fine.
It was when I was a kid. It was always special when my dad would drive down to Virginia for work and bring some back. Now you can get it anywhere. 10-2-4
This will be an unnecessarily long-winded food essay to be read in the (more PG-rated) style of @Hanover
So I was putzing about in my domain, bemoaning my weariness of eating yogurt day in and day out simply for it's probiotic effects which manage to cradle my fragile stomach chemistry with care. I pondered how I could achieve this level of gastronomical ministration without the use of this unwelcome fermented dairy which was now so anathema to my sense of enjoyment of life that it threatened my very sense of self because of my willful overexposure. I thought and thought and thought as I do since I'm such an excellent thinker filled with so many excellent thoughts. Then my thoughts landed upon Miso, that mysterious Japanese fermented soybean paste that impregnates broths with its virile aroma. I congratulated myself on my excellent thoughts and proceeded by Razor scooter to my nearest Japanese market where I procured the broad-shouldered paste along with other Japanese delicacies that would undoubtedly only impregnate the forthcoming dish with further strong and bold flavors.
Upon returning to my domain, I proceeded to rapidly assemble the mis en place requisite to this particular recipe, and before I could take a sip of seltzer water I was poaching chicken, boiling mysterious Japanese noodles with instructions only in Japanese, and straining umami-laden broth with a vigor that crescendoed to a fevered pitch as liquids splashed and steams bloomed. Profane oaths were called down. Clothing was irreparably stained. Yet somehow, out of the blinding chaos, a bowl of vaguely Pan-Asian soup landed in front of my bib-adorned chest. I crowned the soup with hot chili oil. I grabbed my chop sticks and my ramen spoon. I took a deep breath. I tasted. And tasted.
The hot chili oil won; a coughing fit ensued and then the rest of the night was spent paying for my hot chili oil sins.
What does it mean if a person keeps having dreams where they're inappropriately naked, and they're embarrassed, but they also think: I can't help this! People need to get over it!
What does it mean if a person keeps having dreams where they're inappropriately naked, and they're embarrassed, but they also think: I can't help this! People need to get over it!
It means you're going to die tomorrow. Sorry, all I can do is read the cards dealt before me.
Reply to unenlightened
A cross between a cocker spaniel and a poodle.
I am a cat person anyway, so what do I know, but It's nice when a lost dog gets back home.
Only if it's a nice place with nice humans of course!
1. Gender identity is subjective and correlates entirely to self identification, and
2. Sexual identity is objective and correlates entirely to physical constitution,
why attempt to correlate 1 to 2 through cosmetic change?
That is, if 1 and 2 are bright line divisions, where we don't declare gender based upon genetic sex, why do some change their sexual appearance based upon their gender preference?
In other words, it would seem I could identify as female, yet fully embrace every stereotypical male trait, including full embrace of my male body. This would beg the question of what being female gender means and demand a non-subjective definition of it. Otherwise, I can simply demand access to female places without any manifestation of what is socially identified as female.
I recall you making this point before. I have heard a trans activist make the argument that in the future, perhaps, gender will not necessarily be correlated to appearance. This would be a good question to take to some trans educators. The reality for now seems to be that in culture gender is signified by appearance - so if you wish to be understood as a particular gender, you would benefit from having certain physical characteristics. Some trans people I've known enjoy the aesthetics of gender (for want of a better term). I imagine this will become less significant as the notion of gender develops.
Otherwise, I can simply demand access to female places without any manifestation of what is socially identified as female.
If gender and appearance that go with a particular gender is ignored, then yes, a male could demand access to female restrooms. In fact, the separation of male and female public restrooms would be be abolished and only one to use by both.
I recall you making this point before. I have heard a trans activist make the argument that in the future, perhaps, gender will not necessarily be correlated to appearance. This would be a good question to take to some trans educators. The reality for now seems to be that in culture gender is signified by appearance - so if you wish to be understood as a particular gender, you would benefit from having certain physical characteristics. Some trans people I've known enjoy the aesthetics of gender (for want of a better term). I imagine this will become less significant as the notion of gender develops.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to adult human females who identify as women, look like women and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me. Together, these two groups make up the great majority of adult humans. It is my understanding that 5% of adults identify as gay and less than 0.5% identify as transgender. Do you really expect this is going to change significantly?
Reply to T Clark I am quite surprised that Velveeta is still being developed -- adding jalapeños, for example. Wonder bread is (still) being made by Flowers Foods, a large baking company with $4 billion+ in annual revenue. Grupo Bimbo has a great name that matches the bread brand better, and also makes many other products.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to adult human females who identify as women, look like women and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me. Together, these two groups make up the great majority of adult humans. It is my understanding that 5% of adults identify as gay and less than 0.5% identify as transgender. Do you really expect this is going to change significantly?
We're pretty much on the same page.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to other adult human males who identify as men, look like men and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me. I agree that heterosexual men and women make up the great majority of adult humans. It is my understanding that 2% + or - of adults identify as gay and less than 0.5% identify as transgender. The stats are unclear because the meaning of "transgender" is still being negotiated,
How many men are gay? Probably more than 1%, but less than 3%. I count gay males as men who started gay and stayed gay, exclusively. Men who successfully marry a woman and\or father children and sometimes being gay are what bisexuals are. I don't hear a lot about the "B" in GLBT. It seems to be a topic that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. How many men are bisexual? I don't know. I'm not sure there are good stats on the rate, because it is a dynamic identity.
The focus of pundits and social media on "gender expansiveness" would lead one to suppose that everybody who isn't a sworn heterosexual is somewhere on the transgender spectrum. The great majority of gay men, gay women, and bisexuals are NOT transgender. It is quite possible for a 100% heterosexual married father to perform in drag shows without moving an iota towards being transgender. For them, it's just show business which it is for some gay drag performers as well.
Some gay men (and lesbians) have declared themselves transgender and have sought to make themselves as much as possible like the desired gender. It sometimes seems like a more complicated way of being gay, such as when a male becomes a female and then establishes same-gender relationships.
There is an element of show business in establishing one's public image, whether one is gay, straight, or bi, or transgender or something else (???). Some people "perform" themselves, rather than just existing as they happen to be. (Wearing different masks in different situations, playing this or that role in various settings, etc. is way too complicated for my level of patience.)
imagine this will become less significant as the notion of gender develops.
This seems the crux of a critical problem. If we can't arrive at an intra-subjective definition of gender that clearly defines gender, then the concept of transsexualism becomes meaningless. That is, why will a biological man be more a female gender by undergoing SRS if vaginas are not a gender defining characteristic of a woman?
This also means that it's possible for a biological man to want to appear as a biological woman, yet fully identify as a man. That is, gender dysphoria would not be a prerequisite for transsexualism, but it would just be a frequently occurring coincidence.
The solution must be that gender be assigned a clear definition, which will require an acceptance that certain biological manifestations exist, certain cultural stereotypes exist, and certain genetically motivated behaviors exist for that person to be a particular gender. Otherwise declaring oneself a man or woman means nothing outside the private feeling of believing one's self that gender unattached to any specific definition.
The solution must be that gender be assigned a clear definition, which will require an acceptance that certain biological manifestations exist, certain cultural stereotypes exist, and certain genetically motivated behaviors exist for that person to be a particular gender. Otherwise declaring oneself a man or woman means nothing outside the private feeling of believing one's self that gender unattached to any specific definition.
It's a very interesting issue and don't feel like I know enough about it to make a call on this.
Reply to Hanover Excellent points! Trans theorists want it both ways: a) there is such a thing as objective gender (penis, vagina, breasts, testicles, ovaries, hormones, clothing, and behavior. b) there is only subjective gender. One is what one claims. If I say I am a man (who for some odd, arbitrary reason has a vagina, uterus, ovaries, breasts, etc.) then I am a man.
A man may feel more 'himself' if he has his vagina, clitoris, uterus, ovaries, and breasts removed. A woman may feel more 'herself' if he has her penis, scrotum, testicles, (might as well get rid of the prostate and cowper's glands as well), beard, chest hair, etc.
If I look and dress the part, am I the part? Sure, because gender is "performative". If you wear heels, skirt, panty hose, brassiere, blouse, carry a purse and walk the walk, then hey, you've succeeded (assuming you wear the outfit convincingly and your grooming is suitable, so that you don't look like a clown). Conversely, put on a business suit, oxfords, argyle sox, shirt, tie, whatever underwear you want, have reasonably short hair, use a wallet, you're a man.
Fortunately we don't have to worry about that, any more than we have to worry about whether a transgendered person becomes a transgendered angel or demon.
Fortunately we don't have to worry about that, any more than we have to worry about whether a transgendered person becomes a transgendered angel or demon.
Reply to Noble Dust If everything is possible and nothing is certain, then all our thoughts are just so much straw. (This sentence makes reference to St. Thomas Aquinas' judgement that everything he had written was straw).
What is, IS and what is not IS NOT. We don't have to leave all the doors open, just in my humble opinion. If you want to worry about the state of transgenders after reincarnation, be my guest--or better yet, proclaim the new theory that transgenderism is the result of one gender being reincarnated as another. So,while being a grasshopper and then being reincarnated as a human is business as usual, getting gender mixed up in the reincarnational sorting shop is a big problem.
Metaphysician UndercoverJune 19, 2023 at 10:42#8162640 likes
Reply to BC
Ever heard of the straw thought phallacy? I think it's when one thinks there is a penis where there isn't one.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to adult human females who identify as women, look like women and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me.
My question relates to the significance of your self identification. If we changed your self identification to being that of a woman, but kept every other aspect of you exactly as it is, would you then be a woman?
I think not, which makes self identification not determanitive, and doubtfully essential, meaning you're a man if you have your current characteristics even if you claim to be a woman. That is, you can be wrong in what you claim your gender to be.
If we changed your self identification to being that of a woman, but kept every other aspect of you exactly as it is, would you then be a woman?
How can we change your self-identification? Aren't you in charge of that? If you demand to be called she, then in a professional setting, that's what I'll call you. Whether that makes you a woman depends on the context of the question.
How can we change your self-identification? Aren't you in charge of that? If you demand to be called she, then in a professional setting, that's what I'll call you. Whether that makes you a woman depends on the context of the question.
While you can't resist my self-identification, you can resist the implications of it. Note in my example, I did not impose any pronoun use on anyone. That is, I identify as female, but have every male characteristic, including a desire to be referred to as he/him. The only thing I wish to have respected is my right to female spaces, including gym lockers and inclusion in female sporting events. I wear only male clothes, speak like a male, refer to myself as he/him, cut my hair like a man, and engage in sterotypically male behavior, etc., but I have that certain woman essence I cannot put my finger on, and so I am a woman.
This is not to make mockery of the issue, but to point out the problem of using purposefully non-defined words.
The issue here is that if you permit gender to be identified entirely by the subject, you end up with this problem. If you, however, wish to impose criteria for the establishment of gender, you open the door to those who wish to include within those criteria genetic sexual characteristics. Even should you decree that genetic sexual characteristics cannot be considered for gender, you run into the same problem of designating certain cultural criteria to gender, like how one dresses or how one acts. That is, you would find yourself telling a self-identified woman she is not a woman because her hair is worn a certain way or her resposne to children is a certain way or her other behavior is stereotypically male-like.
This is not to make mockery of the issue, but to point out the problem of using purposefully non-defined words.
And female is the purposefully non-defined word? You mean legally defined? In today's judicial climate, I wouldn't expect a trans person to get far in demanding any sort of rights. But if that changes, then a precedent would establish criteria, right?
As for the man who wants to pee in the women's bathroom, yes, you're right that self-identification isn't doing much for him.
Maybe I should move this to its own thread, but I was just thinking about this the other day. A definition of nonsense is to speak in undefined terminology. It seems to evoke the problems of private language. If I call myself a Blark (a meaningless term) and insist I have a personal definition of it, but I refuse to expose that defintion to public control, that will then leave my being a Blark bearing no resemblance to your being a Blark.
If nothing else, maybe this whole thing has given me a better understanding of the elusive beetle in the box analogy.
The distinction here, of course, is that a woman is not a Blark, but it is something publically defined. The problem seems to be that it's being swept into the private realm in order to protect it from scrutiny, but that is resulting into it being subjected to some serious linguistic problems. The critics in the gender dysphoria debate do seem to be instintively hitting upon these problems, but their responses get lost in a political debate when they make comments insisting that women and men act in certain traditionally male and female ways. I see it as a linguistic/language problem in a real way, without regard to whether we're talking about gender or Blarks.
And female is the purposefully non-defined word? You mean legally defined?
No, not legally defined. That's the special world of proscriptively defined words. I'm talking socially defined, which permits a dispute of how the words are to be used without a controlling authority. I'm pointing out that if one group wishes to leave a word undefined, that it is per se unworkable. It's not to suggest one group can't define "woman" one way and another in another way. But if one refuses to define it, that's the problem.
Reply to Hanover
I think people in the women's rights movement specifically wanted to leave definitions behind, to allow women to be viewed as fully human. The ideal would be to drop femininity from considerations for education, employment, political office, etc.
In some ways, the goal of a trans woman conflicts with that. It makes a conundrum.
The ideal would be to drop femininity from considerations for education, employment, political office, etc.
Discrimination is only an evil when it's based upon irrelevant criteria based upon prejudice, but it's not when there is a relevant basis for the discrimination. That is, I will discriminate upon applicants for an opening in the neuro-surgery department by only considering those licensed medical providers with that specialty. I will discriminate upon those applicants for the women's soccer team by selecting only those who are women.
That is distinct from suggesting I would only consider for neuro-surgeons those who were white and only consider those for the women's soccer team those who were Latina.
Sometimes it matters that the person is a woman and sometimes not.
you can be wrong in what you claim your gender to be.
As far as I can tell from here on the outside, there are (at least) two types of transexuals/transgenders. There are those with gender dysphoria and those who decide to be the opposite sex/gender for political, social, or other psychological reasons. Seems like they should be handled differently. I, and it seems you, don't think you can change your gender by waving a wand.
My maleness is something I value. It's one of the foundations of who I am. I value femaleness too. I value that part of our social, psychological, and biological existence. Now that I think of it, that may be why the non-dysphoric type seems to have become more prevalent - our society values the differences between men and women less. I am paranoid enough to suspect that it is part of our societies rejection of maleness.
I am quite surprised that Velveeta is still being developed
Velveeta has only been made once, back in the early 20th century. I happened in a runaway chemical process at a coal tar processing plant in Skaneateles (skinny atlas) NY. The residue was dumped in a large vacant lot behind the ruins of the plant and has been mined ever since. It is estimated that enough remains in the pile to last another 247 years.
The focus of pundits and social media on "gender expansiveness" would lead one to suppose that everybody who isn't a sworn heterosexual is somewhere on the transgender spectrum.
Do you have any insight into the people who claim to have no gender at all? I have a former nephew who makes that claim. That confuses me more than straightforward transexuals. Accepting a biological male as a female makes a certain amount of sense to me while claiming to have no sex/gender at all seems absurd. There are plenty of men, gay and straight, who don't feel very manly but who still have no problem answering to "he" and using the men's bathroom.
Conversely, put on a business suit, oxfords, argyle sox, shirt, tie, whatever underwear you want, have reasonably short hair, use a wallet, you're a man.
I've met quite a few biological women who do all this but still consider themselves women.
No one on this forum has a "humble" opinion. As a matter of fact, it is my understanding that idea humility is cause for immediate banning. None of my opinions are humble. They are all just correct.
This is not to make mockery of the issue, but to point out the problem of using purposefully non-defined words.
There is a great science fiction trilogy by Ann Leckie - the first book is "Ancillary Sword." In galactic society, no distinctions are made for sex/gender in language. Biological males are called "women with penises."
If we do that, it will solve a lot of problems. We'll have to set up additional bathrooms for women with penises, but men with vaginas will be able to pee wherever they want. Everyone will be happy.
Chikungunya is an infection caused by the Chikungunya virus (CHIKV). Symptoms include fever and joint pains. These typically occur two to twelve days after exposure. Other symptoms may include headache, muscle pain, joint swelling, and a rash. Symptoms usually improve within a week; however, occasionally the joint pain may last for months or years.
My question - how come they get such a cool disease name and we get stuck with "Covid 19?" I bet if we called it "Chikungunya" those MAGAs would get their inoculations. Chick-un-gun-ya, chick-un-gun-ya, chick-un-gun-ya....
This is a heart-warming video about a guy who retrofitted his Tesla to install a gas powered generator so he wouldn't have to stop to recharge. God Bless America.
2 days without a post on the Ukraine thread. What a relief. I like to keep up with the different viewpoints, but after a while it's wa-a-a-y too repetitious.
As for the man who wants to pee in the women's bathroom, yes, you're right that self-identification isn't doing much for him.
Why do men want to urinate in women's toilets in the first place?
It used to be the case that women's urinary-function facilities were appointed with "rest" room furniture - comfortable chairs, a table and mirror for adjusting one's cosmetics, or whatever obscure, possibly subversive activities went on in those spaces.
Men's urinary facilities have always lacked these rest-related appointments, and were (are) your basic piss & shit hole. Fine by me. But apparently some men suspect that women's toilets harbor rare pleasures denied to them. Are they attracted to the sanitary napkin box? Do they think women's toilets are cleaner than men's toilets? (As far as I know, they are not.) Do they think they will meet interesting, attractive potential mates in the women's toilet?
Reply to EricH You have come to the wrong place for refuge. The Shoutbox suffers from highly repetitive food reports. "For lunch I had..."; for supper I made [odd, un-American food] with lists of peculiar, foreign ingredients; for breakfast I had such and such a brand of bread with such and such a regional olive oil; slanders against American-made cheese, the horrors of Velveeta; scorn for all sorts of perfectly fine food-like dishes that Americans thrive on -- it's just hell, much worse than the Ukraine kerfuffle.
My maleness is something I value. It's one of the foundations of who I am.
Interesting. Maleness hasn't captured my imagination. Not sure if it is relevant but I don't identify with many supposedly male interests - I have no interest in sport, fishing, cars, camping, guns, hunting, beer, barbecues, engineering, maths, etc. I am always more comfortable talking to women than men and have few male friends.
Reply to frank I don't really know that she addresses my points. Where society has used gender designations to structure itself to maintain certain power structures or where it has created these designations in reaction to biological factors seems one of those "is it nature or is it nurture" impossible questions to answer, although she emphasizes the primacy of culture, which seems instinctively academic/Marxist in its focus on class power and struggle.
But, in any event, I'll take as a given that gender roles (and thus the term "gender") have evolved over time. What it means to behave as a man in 2023 in the West is obviously different from 1000 years ago in a different part of the world.
My point was that whatever gender is, it is. If you can't identify what it means to have the gender "woman," then it means nothing, so you need to stop saying it.
So, what is it to be the gender woman? And however you define it, be prepared to deny someone that designation even if they sincerely believe themselves to be one if they lack the necessary criteria.
Interesting. Maleness hasn't captured my imagination. Not sure if it is relevant but I don't identify with many supposedly male interests - I have no interest in sport, fishing, cars, camping, guns, hunting, beer, barbecues, engineering, maths, etc. I am always more comfortable talking to women than men and have few male friends.
Your post is interesting. What you've identified is the difficulty in capturing a definition of your maleness, but you tacitly admit your recognition of it, as you distinguish it from that of other sterotypical males and from that of your female friends.
I'd also suspect your lack of interest in the areas you listed distinguishes you from many males here, although some likely are more left brained than you present yourself.
What you've identified is the difficulty in capturing a definition of your maleness, but you tacitly admit your recognition of it, as you distinguish it from that of other sterotypical males and from that of your female friends.
Sure - I have no issue with being male, I just don't follow many of the gender stereotypes or relate to a lot of men or to maleness particularly. That said, it has only occasionally been a source of antagonism in other males - perhaps because I am six feet two and 190 pounds, with a buzz cut and the general appearance of an aging bouncer or cheap henchman in a Jason Statham movie... nothing I have worked on.
Maleness hasn't captured my imagination. Not sure if it is relevant but I don't identify with many supposedly male interests - I have no interest in sport, fishing, cars, camping, guns, hunting, beer, barbecues, engineering, maths, etc. I am always more comfortable talking to women than men and have few male friends.
I also don't share interests in anything on your list except engineering and math. My best friend is a woman. I like and respect women, but I recognize differences that I value. I'm a pretty assertive guy and it's one stereotypical male trait I value strongly. I tend to like and be attracted competent assertive women.
I remember liking girls when I was 9 or 10 and griping to my male friends when they said they didn't. This is one of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies - "Annie Hall." The relevant part is at about the 45 second mark.
I have no issue with being male, I just don't follow many of the gender stereotypes or relate to a lot of men or to maleness particularly
Stereotypes do change over time -- maybe not a lot, but certainly some. The housewife stereotype of decades past (mother, caregiver, thrifty homemaker, cook, church attending, etc.) isn't what most people bring to mind in 2023. The good breadwinner stereotype of men -- steady, reliable, hard working, competent, loyal, etc. isn't what most often comes to mind in 2023, either.
The changes that have been wrought in stereotypes owes less to media and more to changes in work life and the workplace, especially for the working class. A lot of women were forced to work outside the home during the last 50 years in order to maintain household income. Men have found their usual job choices fewer in number, lower paying, and less stable. Many men have had to work more than one job to still-not-earn-enough to make ends meet. Those in the professional or managerial middle class have not faced the same disruptions in work life. Those in the top 10% have had it good for the last 50 years.
Class aspirations and gender stereotypes intermingle. Upward mobile gays, for example, aspiring to the suit and tie managerial class, may find their fellow working class gay brothers too rough or too crude (sexually open). Working class people may find the choices of their well educated brothers and sisters difficult to understand, and visa versa. Gender is one of the lenses through which we view others, and so is class.
My point was that whatever gender is, it is. If you can't identify what it means to have the gender "woman," then it means nothing, so you need to stop saying it.
So, what is it to be the gender woman? And however you define it, be prepared to deny someone that designation even if they sincerely believe themselves to be one if they lack the necessary criteria.
You're saying that if your mother claims to be a woman, we understand and agree because of external criteria. If you claim to be female, you're wrong, again because we have a way to verify your claim. In the case of a trans woman, we're supposed to accept her feelings as justification. This leaves us with no means of verification.
A report of subjective data is often taken as meaningful. If you tell your waitress you prefer unsweetened iced tea, she probably won't say, "Well, I have no way to verify that, so your claim is meaningless." If she did, she would be some sort of verificationist (possibly Marxist.)
There aren't really any good arguments for verificationism. It's supposed to be a way of structuring language so that we avoid pointless controversies. So the problem you've uncovered isn't that vague claims of "feeling female" are inherently meaningless. It's that where conflict arises, we find ourselves without any way to resolve the dispute.
If Bob says he ought to be allowed on the women's track team because he feels female, conflict will appear if he wins the race because he was born with muscle bulk that few human females have. As you pointed out, there's no way to resolve this without specifying in objective terms who can be on the track team and who can't.
Does this mean that we have to establish a grand council for specifying what it means to be female? Why would we have to do that? I think trans people want to live their lives in a way that feels most comfortable to them. I think the trans community is learning as they go, just like the rest of us. Can we not leave the question of gender open?
Does this mean that we have to establish a grand council for specifying what it means to be female? Why would we have to do that? I think trans people want to live their lives in a way that feels most comfortable to them. I think the trans community is learning as they go, just like the rest of us. Can we not leave the question of gender open?
This is sensible and humane. A lot of thinking has already been done by the trans community regarding sport and eligibility and some of this thinking is explored on various podcasts, and on supportive trans education websites. I have no doubt that we can work through most of the issues and complications.
If you tell your waitress you prefer unsweetened iced tea, she probably won't say, "Well, I have no way to verify that, so your claim is meaningless." If she did, she would be some sort of verificationist (possibly Marxist.)
The comparison to be accurate wouldn't hinge on the ability to prove one's preference for tea, but on the ability to define tea. That is, I trust implicitly your self report you prefer tea (or being a woman), but I'm well within reason to ask you to tell me what "tea" is, else I have no idea what to pour in your glass.
If you identify as a woman, I believe you. Now tell me what you're taking about. Quoting frank
Does this mean that we have to establish a grand council for specifying what it means to be female?
In a legalistic context, yes. In general society, no. Word usage is defined within the context in which it is used, and it can form organically or by decree. That's always the case.
If you do, your definition must reflect that that combination of letters doesn't have the referent of an actual entity, but of a disputed politicized concept. That is, if you're going to posit a word whose meaning is vague, designed for the purpose of creating a protected subclass of individuals who have no other consistent objective characteristics
other than wanting to fall within that term, then you must accept that is your definition.
Such would be a woman under this analysis, as you've refused to mention anything about what actually is a "woman" as that term is used. This strikes me as a more contrived definition to achieve political aims than would any grand council attempt to do as you referenced.
Metaphysician UndercoverJune 20, 2023 at 10:35#8164270 likes
The comparison to be accurate wouldn't hinge on the ability to prove one's preference for tea, but on the ability to define tea. That is, I trust implicitly your self report you prefer tea (or being a woman), but I'm well within reason to ask you to tell me what "tea" is, else I have no idea what to pour in your glass.
If you identify as a woman, I believe you. Now tell me what you're taking about.
There are two sexes, male and female. If a person is born female, they have XX chromosomes and the potential to give birth.
In most human societies, there are distinct gender roles for each sex. In the west, the most obvious gender flags have to do with clothing and hair styling. See the internet for examples.
This is sensible and humane. A lot of thinking has already been done by the trans community regarding sport and eligibility and some of this thinking is explored on various podcasts, and on supportive trans education websites. I have no doubt that we can work through most of the issues and complications.
Reply to frank No, that was for evangelism and vitriolic anti-trans rhetoric, or as the banner @fdrake put it, “borderline hate speech”. @Hanover on the other hand appears to be asking honest/idle questions. Those questions might be misguided—it looked a bit like that to me from his first post on the matter here a couple of days ago or whenever it was—but I see no evidence of outright transphobia. He may even have used the Shoutbox so as not to attract aggressively pro- or anti-trans folks.
Having said that, the Shoutbox is not the best place to seek answers on such topics, in my opinion, despite the wealth of knowledge available here.
Reply to Jamal
Oh good. Because I'm sure you'd agree that if we banned someone for pointing out the challenges gender philosophy poses to feminism, or challenging us to consider the damage this kind of social change can be associated with, or just posing philosophical questions about making sense of the whole thing, that would be stupid.
Any moderator who would have done that would have to be classified as a dumbass. Like if you looked "idiot" up in the dictionary, that moderator's picture would be staring back at you.
Just out of curiosity, did we not just ban someone for expressing the sentiment you are? My impression is that we did.
I'd mod @Hanover's remarks differently than @Andrew4Handel's. I advise you go through Andrew4Handel's post history for reference.
Andrew4Handel's post history has repetitive references to sources which promote hate speech, shows a consistent pattern of disgust to trans bodies, construes trans people as predators. In addition, when they were challenged on these beliefs, the cycle would repeat with little to no variation. Finally, Andrew would bring up this issue in tangentially related topics, preferentially, with no regard for the prior thread content.
The reasons for banning him were ignoring two warnings to cut the above out. In addition to several "in thread" interventions. These warnings were detailed and pointed out the problem behaviours.
Hanovers' remarks, by contrast, don't show clear disgust, don't promote hatred towards trans people. There are discussions similar to this raised in the SEP article "Feminist Perspectives On Trans Issues". At worst Hanover misunderstands something and asks difficult questions. In a different context, those difficult questions could be seen as support for hate speech, but we're not on Twitter and Hanover isn't in a hashtag signal boosting intentional promoters of prejudice.
I'm explaining the distinction, as I see it, because people are confused about the norms of discussion on this issue. I think this presents our rough consensus on how posters and comments will be modded on this issue.
Andrew4Handel's post history has repetitive references to sources which promote hate speech, shows a consistent pattern of disgust to trans bodies, construes trans people as predators.
I didn't see this. Would you be able to point to that post so I don't have to go on a mining expedition?
This is sensible and humane. A lot of thinking has already been done by the trans community regarding sport and eligibility and some of this thinking is explored on various podcasts, and on supportive trans education websites. I have no doubt that we can work through most of the issues and complications.
The compromise position I've heard of is that people who transition before puberty can compete as girls and women but those who don't till later can't. That sounds reasonable, but I am not informed enough to know if it is.
Those questions might be misguided—it looked a bit like that to me from his first post on the matter here a couple of days ago or whenever it was—but I see no evidence of outright transphobia.
I've read all of @Hanover's posts on this subject. None of them have been misguided. They've been nuanced and humane. The fact that you've sprinkled them with a light coating of transphobia dust says something bad about the forum.
At worst Hanover misunderstands something and asks difficult questions. In a different context, those difficult questions could be seen as support for hate speech, but we're not on Twitter and Hanover isn't in a hashtag signal boosting intentional promoters of prejudice.
As with @Jamal's comment which I discussed above, I find this comment disturbing, especially from a moderator. It shows a lack of perspective and understanding of what open and respectful discourse is. That worries me.
As with Jamal's comment which I discussed above, I find this comment disturbing, especially from a moderator. It shows a lack of perspective and understanding of what open and respectful discourse is. That worries me.
I can understand why you would believe it shows a lack of perspective. If I understand correctly, the very fact that @Jamal and I have explained the distinction between @Hanover's recent comment (which is fine, dandy, good, appropriate) and @Andrew4Handel's comments (which got them banned) renders it worrying that someone like Hanover - who has said fine things - might be modded or otherwise surveilled on this issue.
I've read all of Hanover's posts on this subject. None of them have been misguided. They've been nuanced and humane. The fact that you've sprinkled them with a light coating of transphobia dust says something bad about the forum.
I don't believe Jamalrob sprinkled Hanover with this, nor did I. I simply sought to explain the context and clarify some things in response to @frank. Hanover's message was, I believe, unambiguously fine. My motivation for explaining it is that other norms of discourse treat any questions, or indeed discussion, of gender identity as either woke liberal nonsense or cancel culture. Tending to over-explain is the strategy I find most appropriate, seeing as people don't tend to know where they stand.
And unfortunately it leads to making clarifying comments like this.
Reply to fdrake
I assume you realize that Andrew is schizophrenic and expressed that he felt lucky that he escaped the lure of what he considers now to be a false paradise. He genuinely feels that the trans community is a psychological mine field. If he went overboard at times, I never saw his attitude as some sort of evangelism.
You on the other hand signaled your militant hypersensitivity early in the conversation. Bottom line is that there is no debate here. Your attitude wins the day. Good for you.
And I never said you were that awful combination of insulting and clueless. I don't know what you're talking about.
I've read all of Hanover's posts on this subject. None of them have been misguided. They've been nuanced and humane. The fact that you've sprinkled them with a light coating of transphobia dust says something bad about the forum.
I said that the first one struck me as at least a little misguided. This is to do with the approach that @Hanover takes in his more philosophical or theoretical posts; I sometimes find that he takes what feels to me like the wrong approach, or one that feels incommensurable with my own way of seeing things. I can say the same of many good contributors (you, for instance).
This impression had nothing to do with a perception of transphobia, and really the whole point of my post was that even if his posts were misguided (conceptually confused or whatever) it doesn't make them transphobic.
The error I made was in saying "but I see no evidence of outright transphobia," because that might imply that I saw a small trace of it. I should have left out the "outright". The reason I left it in is along the lines of what @fdrake has been saying about context.
And unfortunately it leads to making clarifying comments like this.
I actually see this entire back and forth exactly as it should be. I made some comments that were not inappropriate and they were sincere, but they did delve into a controversial area, particularly one where disingenuous people often lurk trying to feign objectivity or confusion but really trying to advance an agenda. From that, others questioned why in this instance innocence was assumed but in others not. What followed then was an explanation as to how the two instances were distinct enough not to think some sort of precedence was ignored, but additional commentary was provided that not all my comments were agreed upon. That commentary was then interpreted not as part of a general response to the substance of what I was saying, but as part of moderation action, suggesting perhaps, if I cared to read so sensitively, that I was being subtely rebuked. This then led to some additional concern that not everyone was understood and greater clarification.
And so we've all had our say, which is what the Shoutbox is supposed to be all about.
Mission accomplished.
Everything is exactly in the place it belongs. It's like I tell you about bitachon and you don't listen, but that too is how it should be.
Rampant groundwater pumping has changed the tilt of Earth’s axis
The Earth has lost enough groundwater to thirsty humans to measurably tilt the planet’s axis of rotation. The net water lost from underground reservoirs between 1993 and 2010 is estimated to be more than 2 trillion tons. That has caused the geographic North Pole to shift at a speed of 4.36 centimetres per year, researchers have calculated...
...Gravitational surveys have measured the depletion of underground reservoirs, which is caused in large part by irrigation, especially in northwestern India and western North America. These surveys show that groundwater pumping shifted enough mass into the oceans to cause 6.24 millimetres of global sea-level rise between 1993 and 2010.
I actually see this entire back and forth exactly as it should be.
Same!
For clarity, I intended "unfortunately it leads to making clarifying comments like this" to be directed towards the state of this contentious discussion in online spaces. Not at you. You're fine mate.
I assume you realize that Andrew is schizophrenic and expressed that he felt lucky that he escaped the lure of what he considers now to be a false paradise.
Yes. He is also a member of other disadvantaged groups. These may serve as things that help us understand his behaviour, not excuse it. If you feel like we did a bad job banning him, please make a feedback thread on it. Though I would very much appreciate it if you went through his post history on transgender issues with a fine tooth comb before doing so (edit: for clarity's sake, a personal suggestion, not a mod demand)
@T Clark - if you want to hash this out further, same invitation goes to you.
The fact that jumps out at me is that you all three are moderators. Your comments carry more weight and a threat. You are also freer to express yourselves without concern about the consequences. If moderators had made those types of comments to me, I would be worried. Moderators have made those types of comments to me and I was worried.
In keeping with my interest with trucks that wreck and spill things on the highway, e.g. my previous posts on lite beer and dildos, I bring you this new incidence.
Thousands of french fries spill onto I-15 after semi truck rollover crash in Provo
PROVO, Utah (KUTV) — A semi truck hauling french fries crashed on I-15 in Provo, spilling thousands of fries onto multiple lanes and impacting traffic in both directions.
A couple of thoughts 1) "Thousands of French fries" - if each French fry weighs about two grams, that would mean there are at least eight pounds of fries on the road. 2) Something about lite beer, dildos, and French fries.
Your comments carry more weight and a threat. You are also freer to express yourselves without concern about the consequences. If moderators had made those types of comments to me, I would be worried.
Fair enough.
It's hard to carefully tread sometimes between being someone who is just making comments and someone who might be perceived as moderating.
Modding potential transphobia is probably the hardest thing we do right now. If anyone knows the perfect line to tread between open expression and hate speech on this issue, you are wiser than any of us. Having said that, feedback on mod decisions has its own category, so if you have advice for us, please put it there or in a PM. Thanks.
Reply to Baden You seem to be doing a sound job in this space from what I can see. I can imagine the challenges and I think it's important to aim for respectful discussions. Thanks for your sensitivity.
Modding potential transphobia is probably the hardest thing we do right now.
If you had written "Making sure discussions of transexuals and transgender people are reasonably fair and respectful...," I wouldn't have any problem. Saying "Modding potential transphobia" tells me where you're coming from.
Reply to Baden
I understand your point of view, but feedback threads and PMs are wastes of time. Calling someone out in the shoutbox works. It just did.
You guys have absolutely no accountability when you're being jerks other than this. Be generous. What do you have to lose?
Why do you think feedback discussions are less effective? It's the same debate only in the right place and with a dedicated and titled thread on the front page so more people can find it.
Why do you think feedback discussions are less effective? It's the same debate only in the right place and with a dedicated and titled thread on the front page so more people can find it.
It's just been my experience that feedback threads are usually ridiculed and ignored. It's weird that the shoutbox seems like a place. :grin:
Aristotle being ridden by Phyllis. Keep this image in mind when people quote the old man.
A 16th-century woodcut by German artist Hans Baldung, depicting Aristotle ridden by Phyllis, the so-called mistress of Aristotle.
Starting in the 12th century, as Aristotle rose to prominence as the leading ancient philosopher for Western Europeans, the story began to circulate that he had become captivated by a concubine of either his tutee Alexander the Great or Alexander’s father, Philip of Macedon. So powerful was the erotic spell she cast on the otherwise rigorously rational Aristotle that he let her ride on his back with a bridle while he crawled about on all fours. Some medieval writers gave her the name Phyllis, although François Villon called her Archipiada, perhaps in a nod to the lascivious politician Alcibiades, whose good looks were said to have attracted the homosexual interest of Aristotle, as well as Socrates and Plato.
Sticky situation: Sugar truck, big rig stuck together on I-80 in Richmond
RICHMOND, Calif. - A truck carrying a load of sugar and a big rig carrying carnival equipment were fused together on Interstate 80 in the East Bay early Tuesday morning, causing a very sticky situation for drivers trying to get from Richmond to El Cerrito.
Today at the corner bodega I ordered a chicken Philly and was instead given a mystery meat Philly. I assume it was beef but I’m unsure. Oh well, half the reason I go there is for the culture.
Eh it was ok, not enough meat which is odd because the guy usually puts too much. It was good in a kind of gross way if that makes sense. Bodega sandwiches in NYC often are. It’s sort of like fast food here, although there are of course fast food chains as well.
It was good in a kind of gross way if that makes sense.
:D yup those are my favorite. I had a friend joke that I live on salt and fat. I'll probably die younger but damn I love me a hot sandwich and fries. Also I've been in the NYC bodegas before and indulged in their food, and loved it. NYC is a very exciting place to be.
Also I've been in the NYC bodegas before and indulged in their food, and loved it.
Excellent. They’re truly the bedrock of this city. Cultural hubs, local news hubs, and good ones have everything from umbrellas to Tupperware to scented candles. I’ve even bought pickling jars at a bodega. There’s often a bodega cat. Things are often being loudly and chaoticly discussed in Dominican Spanish or Yemeni Arabic. A good sandwich man will know your order, and a good counter guy will discuss baseball with you and anyone within earshot to no end. Sadly they are dwindling but the city can’t run without them.
Reply to T Clark I hope the "The Giant Dildo Ride" wasn't damaged. It's a pain in the ass but a lot of people look forward to it when the carnival comes through. Just ask @Hanover.
Penetration isn't part of the ride -- you ride it like it was a phallic horse. The real risk is falling off the dildo.
Just in case you want to know, there are dildos intended for penetration that are about the size of traffic cones. No, I have not! But I have seen the ads for them. It's a specialty sport guaranteed to cause problems. But then, so is football.
The old school bodegas you describe are sadly on the decline. The one in that video looks average to me. They're being replaced by fancy bodegas like this one. Miraculously, old fossils like this still exist. I wish you could see inside. There's a small CRT TV that plays non-cable channels, and a six pack of craft beer costs $12. That's 2014 prices here.
The old school bodegas you describe are sadly on the decline.
I only just worked out what you were talking about. We don't really have these in Australia. We used to have a long standing tradition of 'milk bars' - essentially a small place to get milk, bread and cigarettes and maybe a water pistol and a shoe horn. Not many left these days. Instead we have 7-Elevens and other franchise style convenience stores. In my city - I have a warehouse apartment in the middle of town - we have some characterless supermarkets and the only mom and pop businesses left are some reasonable restaurants.
Interesting. Is there strong public transportation in your city or do people mostly drive? NYC relies so heavily on the transit system that if these corner stores weren't in every neighborhood, life would be very inconvenient. I don't have a car to hop in and drive 5 minutes for a loaf of bread, but I can walk 5 minutes to get it three blocks away.
Reply to Noble Dust Yeah, our city is curious. The greater area has 5 million people living in it. The center of town (about a 5 kilometer square (3 mile) area) wasn't zoned for residential use - it was a shopping entertainment and business district, with people living in suburbs. That changed around 30 years ago. Before then, the last time people lived in the city itself was the 1800's. We now have 200,000 living in the center of the city. We are crying out for more small bodega-style shops to make living here easier. Fortunately, near me is a massive market with every kind of produce and meat. the market itself dates back to the 19th century. You've got to get there early to avoid the crowds. But yeah, we have a lot of public transport - buses, trains and trams (trolley/streetcars) on every road going all over the city and beyond.
milk, bread and cigarettes and maybe a water pistol and a shoe horn
Places to get a quick tobacco refill and additional water pistols and shoe horns are vital in the sophisticated urban environment. Bread and milk are optional.
Do you live in Melbourne? Is this market strictly retail or does it also serve as a wholesale operation?
I do. It's mainly a retail market for shoppers. Lots of tourists come. You can also buy clothing and household and souvenir shit. The delis, meat market and produce stalls are fantastic and there are dozens of stalls. There are separate wholesale fish, meat and fruit and veg markets on the outskirts of Melbourne's suburbia.
That's awesome. Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia and West Side Market in Cleveland come to mind as similar operations in America, but I can't think of anything like that in NYC, which is a shame. Of course there are many places to go for ethnically specific groceries, but they're rather spread out.
Reply to Noble Dust I have a thing for NYC without the benefit of having been there. It's the romance of it - from films, literature and documentaries. I was also obsessed with the Chelsea Hotel (when Stanley Bard ran it) and have read and watched a lot of stuff on this. Part of my reason for moving into the city was to capture something of a New York vibe.
I moved here for a typical music career dream and have followed a typical path of failure, but I do love the city. On bad days I question why I'm still here, but on good days I revel in it's strangeness. It's pointless to say, but I do recommend a visit if you can.
Stop looking up my VPN or whatever it is you fucking creep.
:razz:
Note to others: I’m not using secret means to spy on people, whether with IP addresses or whatever else. All the information I have is from public posts.
Note to others: I’m not using secret means to spy on people, whether with IP addresses or whatever else. All the information I have is from public posts.
I remember a few years ago when you creeped on me by VPN or some such. I'm not joking; it's not cool dude.
I’m quite surprised there isn’t one. Maybe there used to be, in the days when NYC wasn’t merely a playground for the rich.
Probably true. Although NYC is strange like that. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's never been this sort of market. I think because the city is such a haven of immigrants (still!) they tend to be new to America and therefore keep to their own enclaves, which creates rich cultural markets but within very delineated ethnic areas.
I remember a few years ago when you creeped on me by VPN or some such. I'm not joking; it's not cool dude.
Yes, it was a callback. But I don’t know why you don’t believe me. I explained at the time that you told me everything about your location yourself, enough for me to guess the length of the bike journey. Stop going on about VPNs and stop being creeped out.
I don't remember that. I remember being weirded out that you figured out the area that I lived in vaguely.
Yes, it was weird that you were weirded out, although I didn’t realize at the time that you were—weirdly—seriously disturbed. I explained at the time exactly the basis on which my guess was based.
I haven't rode a bike since I busted my face open on one when I was like 13, so I don't know what this is about either.
An odd thing to say. It seems to be based on the idea that I think you ride a bike in the city. But of course, I’m just saying that if you were to take a bike from South Brooklyn or wherever it is, it would take about 32 minutes according to Google.
What's weird is that you remember this weird thing that happened like 4 years ago. I remember it because I was offended but I slogged it off. It's weird that you remember it. What I said stands; I distinctly remember being weirded out that you were able to pinpoint my general location so well. Maybe I missed something at the time.
I distinctly remember being weirded out that you were able to pinpoint my general location so well. Maybe I missed something at the time.
You mentioned “South Brooklyn, NYC”, openly implying that that’s where you were. For the past few years, the whole world has been able to find out roughly where the reclusive and elusive @Noble Dust probably lives. :scream:
Some of the people I know barely remember things I said four minutes ago, let alone four years. I'm envious of ND for having the opportunity to know a person who hangs on his every word with such attentiveness. How astounding it is the things we take for granted and cast as unfavorable.
Reply to Outlander
Imagine if everyone on the planet but you had Alzheimer's? Constantly telling you people were trying to kill them and such. It would drive you insane.
Here’s an example:
It’s starting each sentence on its own line, in a nutshell.
It seems a little more “readable” to me, without taking up much more lines.
Short sentence get a punchy kind of emphasis, rather than getting lost in the sea of words.
I tried to determine what this format is called, but couldn’t find any names.
Any idea what it’s called?
Do you prefer the regular way, this way, or no preference?
Or maybe not as big of a positive difference than I’ve noticed?
Reply to Jamal :up: Ok thanks for the feedback! I hadn’t noticed anyone doing that. (But then again, I stay away from logic, mathematics, and quantum theory threads).
Well, I certainly don’t want to make it unreadable. Just the opposite! :nerd:
Others on the staff have told me they don’t mind it, so do with my opinion what you will :cool:
Ok thanks. :pray: Not a huge deal, just a passing thought. I don’t remember this being discussed. I’ll look for any relevant threads to see if there’s any kind of consensus. :smile:
I have a thing for NYC without the benefit of having been there. It's the romance of it - from films, literature and documentaries. I was also obsessed with the Chelsea Hotel (when Stanley Bard ran it) and have read and watched a lot of stuff on this. Part of my reason for moving into the city was to capture something of a New York vibe.
The thing I love about NYC most is that there is one of everything everywhere. It's like the whole city of Boston on each square block. But then, as you walk along you'll find yourself in a fancy neighborhood. You walk another block and you're on skid row. Another block and it's Little Italy. Another block and it's Finn Town, where every restaurant sells pickled herring and those Finnish pancakes @Noble Dust won't stop talking about. I read there are 10,000 restaurants in Manhattan. And they're not all concentrated in one place, they're everywhere.
If I told you I’d be revealing that I hate their posts, so I’d rather not.
:joke: tee hee hee! Fair enough. I wouldn’t do it in the Shoutbox. Not needed for short and conversational comments probably. (If needed at all, that is. Not trying to make posts into 19th century epic poetry lol. The Rime of the Ancient Windbag :blush: ).
Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.
The very deep did rot: O Christ!
That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs
Upon the slimy sea.
About, about, in reel and rout
The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green, and blue and white.
And some in dreams assurèd were
Of the Spirit that plagued us so;
Nine fathom deep he had followed us
From the land of mist and snow.
What you’ll notice is that each line is short, so that there is no wrapping; and that it’s poetry, where the length of the lines corresponds roughly with the rhythm and the lines come in groups of four. The style you’re talking about is nothing like this.
But as I say, you shouldn’t let the fact that I despise it more than I could ever express put you off using it if you like it. :grin:
What you’ll notice is that each line is short, so that there is no wrapping; and that it’s poetry, where the length of the lines corresponds roughly with the rhythm. The style you’re talking about is nothing like this.
Hmmm… yes. Good point. An 18th century treatise on taxation perhaps? :snicker:
In keeping with my love for Rehoboth Beach Delaware, here is a picture from yesterday. Not a good day for swimming in the ocean. The weather has been terrible there since Memorial Day (last Monday in May). We go to Cape Cod in July because my wife thinks it's all quaint and stuff. And it's not an eight hour drive.
I take your meaning here as to suggest
Poetry now be the preferred form
We should respond to all that's put to us
I choose blank verse as the fairest means
That shall henceforth mould my arguments
And coat them in such a sheen I fancy
May bedazzle all those I debate.
Reply to Baden
Crikey, that’s very inspiring.
Really I’ll try to use the suggestion, just not in the Shoutbox (whoops) lol.
Anyway, life is a poem… or a long pointless story… or a dirty joke.
Plus, you can spell out curse words using the first letters!
Percentage of Congress members that Jesus would give a bare-butt whoopin to if He saw them: 97.8%
Presumably Jesus, as part of the Trinity, has access to God's Omniscience Stream, as well as the New York Times, is aware of what all they are doing. So... what is He waiting for?
Percentage of fortune cookie producers who plan to use artificial intelligence to help write fortunes : 100
A sensible choice. The task of coming up with millions of fresh fortunes to fill 3 billion cookies is extraordinarily difficult -- especially if the fortunes are to avoid lapsing into truisms, like "it's not the heat, it's the humidity". I want my fortune cookie to contain a prophecy, even if it's kind of threatening: "If you keep eating here you'll be dead in 6 weeks."
Reply to Jamal What's not to like about iambic tetrameter poetry with an abcb rhyme scheme?
Iambic tetrameter with an abab rhyme scheme, perhaps, or abba, or aabb.
Or per Poe, iambic octameter:
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore— [philosophy]
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more.”
Let go of the past like a helium balloon and soar into a future filled with possibilities.
Simultaneously letting go of the past and grabbing on to a [very large] helium balloon will whisk you into the sky where, at an extremely inconvenient moment, the balloon will pop, releasing one particular possibility: you being freely attracted to the much larger, hard, uncaring earth at an accelerating speed (vf = g * t).
The greatest success comes to those who are willing to make a fool of themselves in the pursuit of greatness.
— T Clark
I've tried this approach and it didn't end well.
[joke]Yes, we've seen quite a bit of the "make of fool of themselves" from you, but little of the greatness. I can only suggest you keep trying.[/joke]
[joke]Yes, we've seen quite a bit of the "make of fool of themselves" from you, but little of the greatness. I can only suggest you keep trying.[/joke]
[suspicion]He SAYS he is joking, but a joke is an excellent disguise for a truth that would be unpalatable as a raw statement like, "He is a fool."[/suspicion]
[false humility]So, yes, I have said foolish things.[/false humility] [borrowed erudition] In my defense, let me quote Marcus Tullius Cicero: There is nothing so absurd that some philosopher has not already said it. [/borrowed erudition]
Here I stand among a long line of foolish philosophers.
The enjoyment in writing blank verse lies
In the little puzzles it brings to our heads
We can say the most banal of banalities
In ways not often said, and so grant them
A colour and life they would otherwise
Not have had.
Comments (61561)
Happy #&@!%§¥! Birthday! :party: :fire: :sweat:
Quoting Hanover
Oh wonderful! I have many ideas for the forum that could help it in its quest to spread wisdom across the galaxy. But mostly I’d want a smiling poop emoji.
The next period was lunch. Yum! :monkey:
Then what you're going to need to do is open the front door and sling them in the yard.
After that, make yourself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and enjoy that while thinking about your day fishing for tadpoles in the creek.
Overall, I find the engineering questionable, which might be why we see few of these at stores today.
What I'd like to see is one with a very small front tire and very large back tire, basically flipping the design, but instead putting a chain on the pedal to make it rear wheel drive and having a free wheel for steering. That might lead to more fact smashing. I'm not sure, but it's an idea.
The two times I've been in Europe, one of the things I enjoyed most was trying to communicate with people in my high school French and college German. My ability in those languages is much less than yours in English. You may have noticed I like to hear myself talk (or see myself write). In another language that pleasure is multiplied.
You think?
One of the things I love about German is the "ich" sound, which we don't have in English, at least not here in the US. It feels good in the back of the throat, like drinking a beer with some bitterness.
What is fact smashing?
Except the KBG is after you. You forgot about that.
Interesting experience. To be honest, I am jealous of your self confidence and that's very important to learn whatever. You didn't care about giving a try in speaking in German or French and you even enjoyed the practice. You think I have an acceptable level of English but this is not what I thought about myself this morning...
Shyness or lack of practice in this conscious knowledge? :chin:
Nice.
Nice.
Do you have one of those fancy new at-home pizza ovens?
I need your expertise in southern vernacular - "Just sayin" is characteristically southern, is that correct? It's a wonderful phrase.
That's right, which is pretty good for someone from New England to know. Just sayin.
It says so much without saying anything.
I know, right?! Cool thing about DIY pizza is that you can get everything just the way you like it. Though once you get into it you realize just how much there is that goes into it. Different kinds of flour and methods for making dough, different kinds of tomatoes and sauce preparation, etc etc.
Quoting Noble Dust
An Ooni 16". Takes a while to get the hang of it.
They say NY pizza tastes different because of the water they use and so you can only get authentic NY pizza if you go to NY. Doubtful. Just sayin.
Actually, I've recently started experimenting with mineral water. Minerals, and perhaps other things in NY water, affect fermentation. And the dough is over 60% water.
That's a different use of the "you think?" phrase than previoulsy discussed. Mine was the challenging "you think," as in if I said "America is the greatest country in the world," and you say, "you think?"
Your use was in the "it's obvious' usage, as in, "Trump hasn't been entirely forthright about the election results," and you'd say "you think?"
What makes this most fascinating is that in the first example, if I were at a Trump rally, the "you think?" phrase wouldn't have been challenging, but it would have stated as if it were obvious with the second usage.
This has given me a lot to think about. Thanks!
For the sauce, you boil some blueberries with a 1/2 cup of sugar until it starts weeping (my word) blueberry sauce. Stir it for a while until it's pretty thick and then strain it through a god damn sieve. Take that juicy soupy funness and spread it on your thighs, just kidding, spread it on the lemon dough like it was pizza sauce.
Then put mango slices on the top and top that with mint leaves. Yeah, I said mint leaves. Fuckers didn't see that bitch coming I betcha!
Now cook it in your fancy 5000 degree oven until nice and crisp. When your friends ask you why you have such a great big shit eating grin from ear to ear, you just tell them you just got yourself a face full of Hanoverpie.
Cool. Wood or gas? Someday when I have outdoor space and money I’d love to get one. What type of tomatoes do you use? Do you add anything else to them other than salt for Neapolitan style?
Quoting Hanover
They do say this, and it is in fact true. It’s also true of the bagels. Add this to @Jamal’s list of things I take too seriously. Otherwise parking lot.
It's gas, and considering that we'd drop around $100 (for 2 people) at the local pizza place per visit I figure we're money ahead.
Quoting Noble Dust
I think these are best so far...
Blended with dried basil, oregano, garlic and onion powder, Salt & peppa, and some sugar.
Just started growing some tomatoes in the backyard so maybe those will be good and fresh. We're growing lemons, blueberries, and mint too so I can try Hanoverpie.
I don't think so. I think it's from Seinfeld.
A quick substitute for NYC water if you're in a pinch is just to piss in ATL water.
Just to try to untangle this, you're saying you piss on your pizza and bagels to get that authentic NYC taste?
No! That's disgusting. I piss in the water and then make the bagels and pizza. I wouldn't eat uncooked piss.
Yeah right.
You might find this interesting :smile:
Forum Tips and Tricks - How to Quote
God does love me after all.
It is the first time I have experienced a loss in guarantees and benefits because I am becoming an "adult". :chin:
It was mostly about pizza and saving little birds. Also, I am stuck in Wrexham, quite often in the toilets of the High St. KFC. No vitriol. We accept our fate, little birds, pizza, and wanderers all.
There are no signs to show me out. They all just point to somewhere else in Wrexham. Although a gentleman who claims to be my wife insists I am actually in Coventry, which is an entire country away. But thank you for the invite! When I find my way back from metaphor to reality I might take you up on it. :halo:
You need a metaphorical GPS.
:100:
Who is the woman in philosophy forum's logo??I mean is it a painting?Is she a famous person that i ignore?Is she a pic randomly taken by the internet?Is she even an actual person that exists/existed or just fictional?
And second.Who picked her? Who made the decision to make her a logo here?
More details about the decision here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/49/icon-for-the-site/p1
That thread is a treasure. It was the first time I saw it, and it has been worthy to read.
Quoting dimosthenis9
I thought in Theodora, the Byzantine empress when I looked at the icon.
Perhaps I'll start a thread - What is the correct ethical position on Bud Lite?
I didn’t know about this flap. Revived a zombie thread to discuss.
I have a shelter in case the discussion goes nuclear lol.
Closed. Please choose a more recent discussion on this topic to comment on, thanks.
I'm a bit embarrassed to say I drink Bud Lite. Lighter beers are the only ones my stomach can handle these days. I try to keep my consumption of alcohol away from politics.
He'd left the hose in the flower pot longer than he intended, coming back to find the cataclysm which had engulfed the ant colony living in the pot. Some people speculate that ants and bees are emerging super organisms with the queen serving as their reproductive organs. Maybe someday these giant conglomerates of individual ants will become conscious and discuss with one another whether the little individual "cells" that make up their bodies have any sort of consciousness, some scoffing at the ludicrousness of the idea.
Sometimes one will come down with a tetrapod infection and have to take antibiotics to wipe out the population of destructive humans or what have you. Down in the tiny world, the humans discuss with one another if the ant colonies around them are already conscious, and suffering from the destruction random gardeners wreak upon them, others scoffing at the ludicrousness of the idea.
Plausible. Though I think Al will F us first.
Discourse with AI is death.
:fire:
:up: Ok thanks. Started a new thread.
I wonder if bagels are a thing in Europe. :chin: I suppose they're from Northern European Jews.
You've asked a question within my expertise, so let me help you out.
When the Jews were freed from Egypt, they had to leave in a hurry and were unable to get all their bread out in time. They therefore had to jam their bread on their erect and handsomely circumcised Yiddishe schlongs, thus creating the first ancient bagel.
Fun fact: the white spread was not originally cream cheese.
You mean whether to boycott or not? First things first. To start off on solid ground we need to first study the origins of boycotting. A little research has shown that it originated with a boy who once protested on a cott (antiquated spelling), hence the term boy-cott.
This is the story...
In the dark and claustrophobic alleys of a bustling city, there lived a peculiar boy named Melvin. Melvin was an introspective and idealistic soul who viewed the world through a lens of profound dissatisfaction. He harbored an unwavering belief that society was veering toward an abyss of greed and injustice. This perception gnawed at his spirit and urged him to take a stand against the oppressive forces he perceived in his midst.
Melvin lived in a small, dilapidated apartment with peeling wallpaper and a leaking ceiling. The rent for this meager dwelling was exorbitant, rendering him perpetually impoverished and beholden to a merciless landlord named Mr. Bogart. The injustices he witnessed firsthand within his living space and the city at large tormented his restless mind.
One fateful evening, as Melvin lay on his threadbare cot, tossing and turning, a thought pierced his weary consciousness. He sat upright, his eyes wide with determination. Melvin had an epiphany—an idea that was both audacious and unconventional. He would stage a protest against the exorbitant rents that tormented the lives of countless individuals like himself.
With fervor coursing through his veins, Melvin embarked on his quixotic mission. He scoured the city for the perfect location to stage his protest, eventually settling on the town square—a place where the cacophony of life mingled with the echoes of societal grievances.
As dawn broke, Melvin arrived at the town square with a simple wooden cot and small podium to stand on. He carefully positioned it amidst the bustling crowd, drawing curious glances from passersby. On the sheet, he scrawled in bold letters, "Against the Exploitation of Shelter!"
Melvin climbed onto the cot, settling himself in its narrow confines. He assumed a solemn, meditative posture, his face a mask of determined rebellion. The crowd watched in bewildered anticipation, unsure of what to make of this peculiar display.
News of Melvin's protest spread like wildfire throughout the city. Soon, journalists and photographers swarmed around him, eager to capture the essence of his unique resistance. Melvin became an enigmatic figure, his protest a symbol of dissent against an oppressive system.
Days turned into weeks, and still, Melvin remained steadfast in his symbolic act of defiance. The citizens, once bemused by his audacity, gradually began to reflect on the truth he sought to unveil. Conversations buzzed with discontent as his message took root in the hearts of the oppressed.
Yet, Melvin's protest came at a personal cost. He faced scorn and ridicule from those who dismissed his act as futile and naive. His nights grew colder, his body weakened by the elements, but his resolve only grew stronger. His protest became an act of martyrdom, transcending his individuality to represent the collective suffering of the dispossessed.
As Melvin's protest gained traction, a sense of unease permeated the city's corridors of power. The landlords grew wary, fearing the erosion of their unscrupulous control. They convened secret meetings, seeking ways to quell the swelling discontent before it threatened their status quo.
One evening, as Melvin lay on his cot, the city's ruling elite decided to take action. In the cover of night, a group of men employed by Mr. Bogart seized Melvin and his cot, carrying him away to an undisclosed location. His silent resistance had become too potent a symbol of dissent, too powerful a rallying cry for change.
Melvin was imprisoned in a stark, windowless room. The once-determined fire in his eyes flickered, replaced by a profound weariness. The oppressive walls seemed to mirror the very system he sought to defy. But even in this desolate captivity, Melvin's spirit remained unbroken. His protest had ignited a spark in the hearts of the people, and that flame could not be extinguished so easily.
Although the city remained in the clutches of exploitation and injustice, Melvin's legacy endured. His act of sleeping on a cot became a rallying cry for those who yearned for a more equitable society. The seed of discontent he planted blossomed into a movement that could not be silenced. The struggle continued, fueled by the unyielding spirit of a boy named Melvin, whose solitary act of resistance transcended the boundaries of time and place.
You're so helpful.
We deleted that as there are plenty of recent threads on this issue. The news article doesn't really merit a new discussion (not that it's not interesting).
I hope you won't be offended if I am skeptical.
In an effort to expand their market, and without realizing that there were actually people that openly disagreed with expansive transsexual rights, they thought it a simple idea to appeal to that community in the hopes of gaining even more market share, however slight.
What they didn't realize is that the world didn't agree with them. It's the danger of living in the echo chamber.
I know this doesn't answer your question. But since you didn't specifically ask whether the boycott of Bud Lite was ethical, but you only asked the more general question of what the correct ethical position of Bud Lite was, I'll interpret that question in a way that I'd like in order to respond.
I would say that one who has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of a stock company must do that which in the best interest of that company, which may or may not include doing what is best for societal progress. I therefore ask whether the Bud Lite decision makers were ethical, which is how I choose to interpret your question, and I say they were not. They entered a fray that had nothing to do with beer consumption, never having been asked to take a position one way or the other, and decided to take a position that ran counter to their customers' positions, and that cost the company dearly. There was a loss of marketshare, a loss in stock value, and devaluation of the company they were supposed uphold.
I'd say that Bud Lite unethically handled their marketing by moralizing upon an issue unrelated to their business enterprise instead of thinking first about their company. I might think differently if Bud Lite had been forced to weigh in on this issue, but they were not.
It's akin to a pet peeve of mine and that's when those who have a mic in front of them think that because I can hear their voice, I must listen to them opine on all sorts of subjects, as if their opinion matters to me. If you are a musician, for example, I don't care about your political views. I sit before you to hear you sing, not to tell me what you would do if you were king of the world. Shut up and sing I say.
Apparently I've lead people astray. I was making one of my typical smart-ass remarks and people have taken it seriously. That being said, I agree with everything you've written here.
What did they opine on? I thought they just got a trans celeb to promote their beer?
Your argument is not coherent. First you say that the marketers were trying to gain market share (good for shareholders), and then later say that they were moralizing on an issue (bad for shareholders).
An innocent mistake is not immoral.
They presented the opinion that transsexualism was an acceptable way of life and that transsexuals should be afforded the same respect in society as others.
I'm not suggesting that opinion isn't laudable, but I am suggesting that it is an opinion that need not have been expressed, and it is not one that promotes the well being of the brand.
To take a counter example, if the Proud Boys had been used to promote the beer, that elevation of a racist organization for the sale of beer would be properly interpreted as an expression of opinion by Bud Lite that racism is acceptable.
I don't suggest the opposite is acceptable either, which is to suggest that an organization should be openly immoral by condemning transsexuals or openly promoting racism to sell their product. They should stick to selling their product and staying away from such conflicts. This is why Bud Lite finds itself in an impossible situation. They cannot seperate themselves from transsexuals without being transphobic, but they are forced now to stay the course of a bad decision.
If they were unable to get outside their own echo chamber and were so insulated from the greater world at large that they truly did not know that their primary customer base held such opposing views, then that would reduce their immorality. How much that was so and how much was someone promoting an agenda, I don't know. You'd think some market research study should have preceeded the rollout of the marketing plan.
I do think though that they should have exercised extreme prudence given the stakes. But I do think it's a fair defense presented by you that if this was truly the result of extreme incompetence that was unmotivated by other objectives, then you don't have an ethical problem, just a competency one, which still remains problematic to me given my general objections to using one's spotlight to present opinions no one ever asked for.
What's wrong with ordinary Budweiser or Miller or... Blatz? (Blatz is real beer, it just doesn't taste very good, regular or otherwise.) I prefer Stella Artois; the Stella Artois brewer is one of the oldest corporations on earth -- 657 years. It's been perfect beer for at least the last 10 years.
Back in the 1970s, Coors ran into flack with the gay community who believed the company was anti-gay. Labor said Coors was anti-union, too. Probably both were true. A boycott was organized -- easy to support in most of the country because Coors (brewed in Denver) wasn't sold everywhere at that time. Eventually Coors performed the necessary symbolic full face grovel and resolved the gay issue, Not sure whether they became more union friendly.
Olympia was another brand that went national in the 1970s. It lacked body. Too watery. Bland.
I think this needs to be in Wikipedia. After all, life is precious.
Nicely done. :cool: :up:
Agreed.
Forget the ethics. It's aesthetically wrong to drink Bud Light.
Fuck that bullshit! I'm never drinking Bud Lite again.
Let's cancel them. But for this other reason, that will surely be easy to convince people of with a meme.
I guess I assumed this is what your internal monologue is always saying.
My personal assistant did all the legwork. :blush:
Thanks
Their loss. It is one fine brew. Said no one ever.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/markets/frances-guardians-of-champagne-destroy-2300-cans-of-miller-high-life-the-champagne-of-beers.amp
I once owned a Mercedes. It was the Cadillac of cars.
:lol:
Ah... got it.
Looking a bit better already:
Quoting Hanover
Penis-mounted bread is not funny or clever.
Most Bud Lite is consumed in red solo cups either at baseball games or frat parties, and it has the abililty to pick up the plastic taste from the cup perfectly. Sometimes I'll enjoy a Bud Lite that way to remind me of you my younger days, standing by the keg, pumping that little pump thing, and enjoying me a cold one.
Only with this brutal joke evaluation honesty will I be able to up to my game. Thank you so much for this.
This saved me from embarrassing myself with my next set of jokes, which was going to include a description of an act of intercourse with a bagel strategically placed so as to offer a poppy seed coated cushion between the lustful partners. I will forego that joke as it too would be neither funny nor clever, my two criteria for success.
Again, thank you so much for this, with an emphasis on the "so."
When I was young, it was The Champagne of Bottled Beers, not to be confused with Schlitz which was The Beer that Made Milwaukee Famous.
Which brings to mind:
I really do love country music.
Thanks for sharing my obsession with Rehoboth Beach. This would normally a big weekend there, but it's been very cool—60s. It's only supposed to get into the 60s all weekend. A beach at 60 degrees is a pretty cold place.
I thought I'd warn you guys about this thing I just realized.
Rehoboth Beach started out as a Methodist beach camp back in the 1870s.
By the time it got down here, it was Baptist.
Would you mind giving the warnings at the beginning of your posts in future?
Maybe: Good afternoon, ladies and gentleman, I am about to write a joke of a sexual nature. If you are easily offended, please avert your eyes.
You can just copy-paste that if you like. :up:
Maybe @BC was there.
My daughter is visiting from Dow Nunder with her bloke who hails from Brazil, and they just offered me a can of Heineken (est. 1873) Made with pure malt, it says, but I suspect it has a yeast infection.
Move on, nuts!
I spent 8 heavenly months living in the Cape Cod National Seashore in 1968-69. This was while the national park was being built, so almost nobody was there.
Quoting AP News
Quoting CBC News
Coincidence? Is there danger of an ursine diabetes outbreak?
Not far from Rehoboth church was a small lake they stocked with catfish and carp and you'd pay a few dollars to fish there. They once loaded these massive channel catfish in there off a truck and the fish were still stunned and not swimming yet, so I tried to snag one with my hook. The lady came out there and yelled at me.
They sold snacks there, and that's when I got my first sweet taste of Mountsin Dew, which was before the meth heads made that drink cool.
I never caught a carp, but once one the size of a shark bit the line when my brother wasn't paying attention and swam off with his fishing pole. I think at night, when no one was around, that carp would fish for catfish with that pole. But I could be wrong.
My story about Rehoboth is better than yours I think. It has a certain down home feel to it, sort of like I'm Huck Finn or some other character from another book I was supposed to read but didn't.
Can I just have a standing warning that is never withdrawn so as to not require the formality of me reciting those words at the beginning of every post?
I'll similarly give you a standing objection, so you don't have to constantly object, and we'll just stipulate that that objection isn't waived by you.
This will make the transcript cleaner and all issues for appeal will be preserved.
That's a follow to the story about how my cat was shedding so much that you might remember.
Catfish vs. sewage? Toss-up.
There were very big catfish in the Chernobyl cooling ponds before the place blew up; they are still there. Some of them are up to 200 lbs in weight. Catfish live up to 80 years. Given the opportunity, a big catfish would eat you.
And, no doubt, they want to eat you -- tender, succulent, learn´d, randy, southern fried.
The catfish that snatches you off the dock might take your clothes and drive home in your car, and tell weird jokes in this esteemed echo-chamber. Or, maybe that has already happened?
Didn't they cap the monthly cost of insulin at $30? That should fit into any bear's budget, considering they aren't paying for their sugar highs.
:angry:
Quoting Reuters
The article does not indicate whether the whales took cupcakes, orange soda, or other similar food items.
Barbate, Cádiz...
When I read the headline that's the location I thought about. Fantastic and gorgeous port city. The Japanese companies pay a lot of money to the Spanish government to buy tuna and seafood there.
I would not be at all surprised.
My understanding is that they plan to plant kudzu on the ocean bottom as a way of controlling the whales.
Will Ron Himself attend? If he does, he'll probably need to be in a straitjacket and glued to his seat, lest he bolt or go crazy and attack the screen,
Lou Reed's Take a Walk on the Wild Side can play as background before the previews.
… Holly came from Miami, F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
… She says, "Hey, babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
Said, "Hey, honey
Take a walk on the wild side"
… Candy came from out on the Island
In the back room she was everybody's darling
But she never lost her head
Even when she was giving head
… She says, "Hey, babe...
Since Ronny will be all tied up anyway, might as well screen PINK FLAMINGOES for the finale. It'll blow his head off (assuming he doesn't secretly adore Divine--not to be ruled out).
I also thought of "Boys Don't Cry," but decided I only want to include movies that would generally be considered inoffensive in order to underline the irony and hypocrisy of DeSantis's actions.
Thinking about it again, I should probably leave "The Crying Game" off the list. We can add "Hairspray" to make up for that.
It's not a monkey. It's me reading one of your stories.
Do YOU believe in the Catholic trinity?
If so, then you believe that god and Jesus Christ were the same entity.
I don't think the 3rd state of 'spirit,' matters much to my main question, unless a Catholic/theist/theologian/generalist thinker, has a counterpoint to suggest why it does.
Jesus/god is posited as an eternal, immortal, but, this immortal magicked itself into a mortal, and existed as a male human, for around 30+ Earth time years.
He got crucified/murdered/blood sacrificed, and experienced death as a human experiences death, well, not quite, as humans don't 'resurrect,' but let's say this immortal did die like a man dies.
So during the time after its death, and before it's resurrection, this immortal, cosplaying a human called Jesus, was dead, so, GOD WAS DEAD.
So during this time, do Catholics accept that the universe had no god? or do Catholics think that this immortal was only playing dead? And, if that's true then under what logic do they consider this fake death, a great sacrifice in favour of humans?
I never saw it. Is there drag in it?
I have performed some research on the Catholic trinity, and I have asked this question of many Catholics in the past, including even some priests, nuns etc. I am aware of a range of responses (all of them pretty bad.) I was merely interested in getting some responses from the 'TPF intelligencia/illuminati/generalist thinkers/eccentric thinkers, on the question. I like to try to broaden my database of responses to such questions. It's always good to get a response or two which I have not heard before.
But I did suspect that it did not have a strong enough 'philosophical tilt,' to it, so I thought I would toss it in the shoutbox waters to see if it produced any ripples of interest.
Come on Uni, you know you're only looking for another opportunity to rag on Christians and rub their noses in your lack of belief.
Yeah, I have had some interesting chats with Catholics who believe in purgatory and a 'time delay' between your death, your judgement, your presence at your judgement, etc.
Is there an ethereal 'time of awareness' to 'process' you to heaven/hell/oblivion (for those theists who don't accept hell exists)? A priest told me once that he personally believed that the fact that Jesus was dead for 3 days MUST have some importance to the time for a human to die, be judged and appear in heaven/hell but he imagined it as a 'dreamscape, painless,' type experience.
I asked him what he thought god/jesus was experiencing during his 3 days of being dead.
His response was almost akin to an angry 'how the fuck should I know!' NOT HIS WORDS at the time, but perhaps his response to the mockery he assumed I was employing, when I was asking him such questions.
I understand your dig and there is some truth to it and justification for it, but that does not undermine the validity of the theistic critiques I present imo.
I don’t know much about Christian theology but this doesn’t look right. Jesus is God in human form, and not God tout court. When Jesus died, God as such did not die, but God as mortal human did.
Edit: “God in human form” being, I take it, the meaning of “son of God”.
According to Catholic theology, the Trinity is the belief that there is one God who exists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are said to be consubstantial, meaning they share the same divine essence.
Regarding your specific questions:
1. Jesus and God being the same entity: According to Catholic belief, Jesus is considered the Son of God, who is fully divine. Catholics believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and that he is both fully God and fully human.
2. The death of Jesus and its implications: Catholics believe that Jesus willingly gave up his life on the cross as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of humanity's sins. According to Catholic teaching, Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection are central to the redemption and salvation of humanity. They believe that although Jesus experienced physical death, his divine nature was not extinguished or ceased to exist during that time. Rather, they believe that Jesus conquered death through his resurrection, demonstrating his power over sin and death.
3. The belief in God's presence during Jesus' death: Catholics believe that even during Jesus' physical death, God, being a Trinity, was still present. The divine nature of Jesus, being fully God, remained united with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they believe that God did not cease to exist or abandon the universe during that time.
The concept of the Trinity and the understanding of Jesus' death and resurrection involve complex theological ideas. Different Christian denominations may have variations in their interpretations and beliefs, but the above explanation represents the general Catholic understanding.
You seem to have some deep seated grudge towards Catholics or Catholicism.
A word is a word and a name is a name. Absent of closed secrecy, any man, or even animal, could identify under such a title. Kind of like how if you had a mortal grudge against a man named "Tom", you'd recollect the same feelings, emotions, and prejudices upon greeting a - completely unrelated - man of the same name. If not for a brief moment. The conscious can be overridden. The subconscious, not so much.
@universeness is very ecumenical. He hates all religion.
Huh?
Yes, that or similar, is a response given by some, to which I ask about god then as an entity that can manifest as a 'part,' but a partially disconnected part.
Quoting Jamal
This cannot be true, unless you include the condition that Jesus is OF god or is PART OF god but not FULLY IS god. Normally, most Catholics will head for the only boring escape route they can at that point.
'You are trying to understand god using human thought, you will never succeed!!!' :roll:
Quoting Hanover
Yes, that is indeed part of the somewhat contradictory claim. The trinity is presented as 'one' as in of the same entity, but it has a heaven based, Earth based and spiritual existence/presence. BUT nothing I have read about the trinity suggests that what one part experiences, the other parts do not, as if that is not true, then what was the sacrifice? If god felt no pain or did not experience actual death as a man does then wtf did it sacrifice, it did not lose itself, as its own son, did it? what did it lose for those 3 days? what function was it unable to perform for 3 days?
Quoting Hanover
His 'divine nature' remained stored in the holy ghost was one claim I was offered.
I asked what was meant by 'stored,' and compared it with Jesus being switched off and on again.
I find the words 'central to the redemption and salvation of humanity,' very strong indeed and as I drill down further into this 'blood sacrifice,' it seems to me, a lesser sacrifice than humans who have died for others, without believing or knowing they would be resurrected. Christians accept, that Jesus knew he would be resurrected, so where is the sacrifice? If you have that knowledge?
Quoting Hanover
So how do you feel about that Mr Hanover? As a theist, do you feel cheated? Is it not true that this god DID NOT die as a man dies, as it OWNED resurrection, and was immortal and eternal so made NO sacrifice whatsoever! The 'central tenet of the blood sacrifice, resurrection and via this act, the salvation of humans does not hold up,' are you still 100% convinced, with your theistic hat on, that this blood sacrifice was god actually experiencing REAL human death? Do you think what jesus went through on the cross and what Spartacus went through on the cross were comparable? if Spartacus had no knowledge of hope of resurrection?
I PROTEST but not in the form of a Lutherian PROTESTANT!
I am an atheist sir!
Quoting T Clark
Thank you Mr Clark, and you are correct in that I am ecumenical in my position that all religions are fundamentally pernicious and I hate all religions but please don't think that it follows that I hate all religious or theistic people. Absafragginlootly NOT!
I know you did not suggest that I did hate all religious or theistic people, but I want to make the very important point, that I don't, anyway, for anyone reading the shoutbox.
Just know that it’s possible to have been raised within a religion, to have left it completely, and to not have hatred towards religion. There is a more complex, nuanced middle path. I hope you find it one day.
Does the path you mention, involve appeasement toward the very pernicious outcomes of a great deal of religious practice and religious messaging?
I plant my protest flag in the camp of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dillahunty, Harris, Dennett and many many others, Aron Ra, Shannon Q, Forrest Valkai, Jimmy Snow, Gutsick Gibbon(Erika), Dave Warnock, Derek Lambert, etc, etc. I follow a similar path to them, so thanks but no thanks for your advice to seek your more nuanced 'middle' no man's land/path.
I’m not sure what you mean by appeasement, but it does involve developing a deeper understanding of why people practice and message the way they do.
I use the term appeasement in it's traditional context.
To placate others and accommodate their recent/historical bad behaviour, in the (usually forlorn)hope of containing it for the present, until you feel strong enough, or able enough, to confront it fully or perhaps even better, not have to ever confront it because the potential damage to your own world might be too much to deal with.
There are myriad reasons why 'people practice and message the way they do.'
I think religious people are 'religious' mainly due to primal fear.
I think the reasons why religious organisations practice and message the way they do is crystal clear, well understood and quite easy to comprehend.
You must have understood that quite well, if you are no longer a theist.
At least read Annie Proulx's short story, Brokeback Mountain. No drag in it, but it's unsettling in that the two men are cowboys (well, sheep herders--not the same thing but close enough for academic work) and they are supposed to be archetypal MEN, out there in cryptofascistland where you either fuck it or shoot it.
The story is both sweet (not saccharine) and sad. Bittersweet? Hmm, not quite the right word. Maybe more tragic.
They wouldn't be proper Roman Catholics, but there are theologians who have posited that God became Jesus, as in the Moravian Hymn, "God lies in a manger, in flesh now appearing" and that when God became Jesus Heaven was emptied. The idea is that God poured himself out, into his creation, finally. (and since Jesus/God resurrected... God didn't disappear. Then there's the Holy Ghost, etc., etc., etc.
Universeness, the Trinity was a term cooked up by Tertullian a couple of centuries later Jesus.
The words 'the Trinity' are the English equivalent of the Latin word Trinitas, which was coined by the early Christian writer Tertullian. The word, which, etymologically, means something like 'the tripleness', is used to refer collectively to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
There was God first (before Jesus), then there was the son. After Jesus there was the Holy Ghost. In the Gospels (written before Tertullian), "Neither the word “Trinity” nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”.
So, why did theologians (not the rank and file) in the early church (in centuries following Jesus) find a concept like "triune God" useful? My rough understanding is that early 'orthodox' theologians were trying to keep a lid on all of the various attractive heresies that swirled around in the early church. If you think Christian theology is screwy now, try the second-fourth century.
More centuries later, after 'orthodox' theology had won the field, the church was sort of stuck with this inexplicable trinitarian doctrine and has, in my humble opinion, been vainly struggling to explain it ever since. Some Christians balked. Unitarian theology jelled in the 1500s among Calvinists. The Unitarians, quite sensibly, decided to go with the one person approach and dump the trinity.
I understand you think it's all baloney, and that's fine. But as a smart atheist, you understand that the trinity, like a lot of other baffling stuff (purgatory, for instance) accreted over many centuries.
As an atheist myself, I don't find the behavior of believers (pick a religion, any religion) any more appalling than the behavior of non-believers. Believers may be more hypocritical than non-believers, but that's just frosting on the frequently sordid business of human behavior.
I didn't abandon Christian faith because of the horrible things it had done to people. I don't think I was damaged much by it, either. Rather, I found its mysteries unacceptable. At some point, I decided that I lived in an entirely explainable knowable cosmos. A god to cover all of the inexplicable stuff wasn't necessary or helpful but was, to me, a stumbling block. It would have been helpful if this insight had arrived earlier than it did, but that's life.
Quoting universeness
I don't think so. Most believers (pick a religion, any religion) are believers because they were born into belief. There are a few who stumbled into belief; there are many who exchanged one set of religious beliefs for another. My guess is that very few deliberate non-believers in religion have ever been converted to belief--in any given religious system.
Rather than "primal" fear, there is "learned fear" and I can't think of any religious system that doesn't teach fear for purposes of customer loyalty and behavior management.
This is bullshit! This is a cliché that's been perpetuated by people who are lazy to think.
One reason people continue to believe or choose to believe in god is humility. I'm not talking about hypocrites -- this is a topic for another day. Christianity is no longer the cruel entity it once were (whose church leaders were cruel themselves). People today do not stay a member of a church because of fear -- but pressure from their own family or friends, for example. But for those whose faith is true, it's humility.
I deeply resent that my smirky little poke at Ronnie D has been turned into a substantive discussion.
I think we can speak of what our personal reasons are for accepting religion, but we can't project it upon others, meaning that fear or humility may be some's motivation, but not all.
The concepts of fear of eternal consequences and of humility are very Christian notions, but not something universally central to religion, so they come off as very foreign if you're not of that tradition.
I'm talking about Christianity. I want to make that clear. BC said:
Quoting BC
Edit: Church attendance had dropped significantly for the last 2 decades.
"Church", not synagogue or temple.
The origin of the concepts involved, go way back to times well before the Romans, imo.
Even the Sumerians had the trinity in the sense of '3', as in the gods themselves (An, the god of the heavens, Enlil, the god of wind and storm,AnKi Enki, the god of water and human culture)
Then they had their 'superhero' creations (equivalent of Christian angels and devils), such as Gilgamesh and Enkidu etc. And then humans! Time itself was conceptualised as a triune! Past, present, future.
Even the old tribal civilisations in the Levant, such as Israel and Judea had trinity style concepts such as from wiki::
Jewish background
[i]The Father
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, God is figuratively called Israel's Father at times, and Husband or Lover at other times, using sexual and familial terms to analogically describe God's love for Israel (God's love for Israel is like a father's love for his son, a husband's love for his wife, or a lover for his beloved).
Son of God
Based on the analogy of divine fatherhood, the "son of God" in Judaism is an analogy for the people of Israel ("my son Israel") and the angels ("sons of God"), because they are holy like, yet distinct from and created by, the Holy One of Israel. God does not have a son, or equals, or parts – in actuality.
Holy Spirit
Medieval rabbis identified the Holy Spirit as the Shekhinah, which is the living throne, or presence, or breath of God, distinct from – and created – by God.[/i]
There is also the idea of moving from the polytheistic model to the monotheistic model. Yahweh(jehovah) was part of a pantheon of gods. But the polytheistic model had a triune existence. A heavenly/mount Olympus/Valhalla type existence, a supernatural/spiritual/polymorphic/shapeshifter existence and they could also appear or become mortals. This maps onto the catholic trinity.
Father, son and ghost is polytheistic in concept but the trinity tries to (very clumsily imo,) pass them off as being a monotheistic entity. Again from wiki:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit.?'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature (homoousion) As the Fourth Lateran Council declared, it is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. In this context, one essence/nature defines what God is, while the three persons define who God is. This expresses at once their distinction and their indissoluble unity. Thus, the entire process of creation and grace is viewed as a single shared action of the three divine persons, in which each person manifests the attributes unique to them in the Trinity, thereby proving that everything comes "from the Father," "through the Son," and "in the Holy Spirit."
You can almost feel the typographical traditions and verbal descriptions of storytelling and fables, being handed down from ancient human generations to today's generation. Lies, lies, lies!
Quoting BC
Yeah but how much longer BC? It's been 2023 years! The debunking and deconstructing is progressing at a decent rate in most Western nations with a better standard of living for most folks. BUT look at what the evanhellicals are managing to achieve in countries with a much poorer and less educated general population! Does such not anger you?
Additional: I forgot to include this logically fallacious diagram called the shield of the trinity:
Their own mortality and the way in which their death can happen, without a superhero god to protect them and continue them forever. This fear and need for a protector, continues, no matter how many times it is exemplified, to everyone who will look at the evidence, that anyone can die or be killed anytime in many horrific ways, no matter who you are, what you believe in and how many times you pray for intercession from a divinely hidden, non-existent deity. The TRUTH is that the best protection available is actually each other, and our scientific ingenuity!
Isn't there a thread here on the Trinity here we can explore this on? Maybe you could start a thread on the inadequate philosophical ideas of religion so we can hemorrhage our hatreds of theism there, away from the nice folk of Tolerance USA?
Quoting universeness
Mr Hanover is Jewish so I doubt he feels ripped off.
The sacrifice has never made much sense. In a similar vein, it's hard to understand Matthew 4:1-11. Here Jesus is tempted by Satan, who offers Jesus all the kingdoms and riches of the world - “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” Pretty stupid temptation if Jesus is God, who created all things. What's this god supposed to do with some buildings and loot? Or, is Jesus just a guy and his 'son of God' title an honorarium? If so, the temptation makes more sense. Or, does none of it remotely matter? I'm in this camp.
I fully agree, I have met atheists who are absolutely horrible human beings, for a myriad of reasons AND I have met many theists who are really really good people. That does not change what is true about the origin story of the human species.
Quoting BC
That all sounds good enough to me sir! You landed well!
Quoting BC
We part here somewhat. Those you describe here, were mostly terrified and threatened into believing in some familial religion imposed on them.
You should listen to some of the online familial stories of those who have fully deconstructed from the religion they were indoctrinated in, as innocent children or those who are trying to under massive, very damaging familial pressures. Even some folks here on TPF have posted descriptions that sound absolutely horrendous to me.
Learned fear is built on primal fear!
This for me is the 'cowering before god' concept, in the forlorn hope of gaining it's favour.
I type forlorn, as I (as you would expect,) see no evidence that such an authority exists.
It's like a dog whimpering before it's master, not out of love, but out of primal fear.
A jungle survival instinct, to be humble and even penitent towards the alpha male.
As a human I don't ask/expect/demand any other human to humble themselves before me.
We should all measure each other via the concept of the golden rule, imo.
This does not mean I would accept/forgive criminal behaviour in any blanket fashion.
I was going to post a thread on the catholic trinity but I reckoned 'we arra mods' would have dumped it in the lounge or deleted it and I think I was correct as @Jamal's post did kinda confirm.
I don't want to mar the more relaxed traditions of the shoutbox, by posting too many responses to the responses to my earlier question regarding the trinity. I have had a 'respectable response' and I am happy to (as we say in Glesga,) 'shut ma geggy,' on the issue, for now anyway.
If there are many other responses that I feel compelled to respond to, then I will try not to but perhaps a mod at that point, will decide to push the discussion onto a thread.
If it's a lounge thread then ........ ok but :grimace:
It's the price to pay so that reasonable folks like Tom don't get too Stormy!
Nah.
:lol: A response worthy of the title 'best philosopher ever!'
I feel honored.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/811343
as sensibly advised by @Tom Storm
I have serious doubts that an actual Jesus existed, but, to the extent they both died similarly, they both died similarly.
You can believe in an uncorruptable soul without a belief in God.
Anyhow, as always, you're stuck with this view that all religions are stuck in a focus of other worlds. That's just not the case. Ask a Jewish day school student what happens in the next world and what its purpose is, and they'll give you a blank stare. Ask if it's OK to eat catfish, and they'll ask if you're crazy, as catfish have no gills or scales.
It's about bringing heaven to earth. And I speak metaphorically, as I describe no physical, tangible heaven. If this sounds like I'm trying to change your mind, I'm not. I couldn't care any less about your soul. I'm just pointing out that your criticisms are simplistic and applicable only to those belief systems you think exist.
For Christ's sake, calm down. You are reading too much into my comment. But, just so you know, there still are religious (Christian) people who teach their children fear by frequent resorts to images of hellfire and damnation.
Fear is a normal, and handy, emotion; some application of mild fear is central to developing a sense of right and wrong -- morality -- and a moderate level of obedience in children. The level of fear I am referencing has nothing to do with abuse, terror, or life-long neurosis.
Quoting L'éléphant
And more power to them!
"Blessed are they who fear the lord and walk in his way," (Psalm 128).
Were I to become a Jew, I would not mind being deprived of catfish. Fine by me. Shellfish, on the other hand, I would regret. Screw octopus, but I'd miss shrimp.
What a beautiful photo. I'd post a photo of my own shelf it I wasn't poor, and if the shelf wasn't horrendously cluttered.
To me, this appears to be the perfect fit tor you. Go for it! It's a far cry better than "born again'.
Agreed. That's something you can't get from a Kindle - that feeling of hoarding a pile of gold. My precious. Looking at the book listing on my computer isn't the same.
I now have a lot of books on my iPad and no, a black slab doesn't make a compelling photo. Still, a book is a book whether it's delivered digitally or as a bundle of paper.
By the way, are those yours?
I read almost entirely on my cell phone using Kindle, but I still feel the loss of what paper books meant to me.
Me and my family's. I also have a couple of free-standing bookshelves.
My dad has an entire room, a library I guess, in the basement of my parents house. For context they're very squarely middle class, so this is not some elaborate library in a Victorian mansion or some such. His collection is roughly the size of T Clark's in the photo. Discovering that room was pure magic as a child.
Nice.
I grew up in a small town in Delaware. I remember going to New York City with my mother when I was a kid. She took me to the Doubleday Bookstore. This was before Barnes & Noble and Borders. I couldn't believe there were so many books in one place. She only let me buy one. Yes - magic.
It was not the 'media center' that libraries have since become. It was just books and a few magazines. It had a distinct fragrance. A very old woman was the librarian. One evening I was reading a magazine article, describing "rabelaisian scenes behind the igloo involving sled dogs and men moving their bowels" and doubled up with laughter (quietly, of course). 60 years later, it's still funny.
The original NYPL is a beautiful building, but I was surprised to find the Detroit library to be even more beautiful. Philly has a good one too.
The library at Kent State University where I went to school was pretty amazing. Ugly, but about 12 stories and fairly exhaustive. The 9th floor was my favorite place to study; the further the table was buried in the stacks the better.
Wow! My kind of building. The building I work in has an amazing 270 degree view, but soul-less.
The tore out the stack core 20 years ago, and restored the rest of the library to its earlier glory. I always liked the stacks (which for a long time were closed--books had to be requested) but they were deemed a serious fire hazard -- it being very difficult to extinguish fires in that sort of building,
Wilson library was big enough to hold its own collection plus the large engineering and science collection of Walter.
They built an underground cavern to hold a large state-wide book repository, above which is an archival library,
Interesting aside: the cavern is located below and near to old leaking tanks of coal gas residue. Up until the late 40s/50s, Minneapolis used coal gas rather than natural gas -- no pipelines up here yet. The leaking tank leakage leaked into the cavern, and on its own merits, and through the good offices of bacteria, became even more toxic. This required a few changes.
The repository itself are two or three aluminum clad concrete buildings within the cavern.
https://kentwired.com/5759/uncategorized/kent-state-university-library-what-to-expect-from-the-tallest-building-in-portage-county-this-fall/
I forgot how ugly it is.
Here's the one in my old suburb.
I didn't know there were any outside the US.
They were eventually printed as the Tales of Uncle Remus. Disney popularized the tales in the movie Song of the South in the 1940s, but it's no longer available for viewing as it's been determined to be too controversial.
I just visited the museum. Mixed feelings.
So, show us how smart you are. Give us something to work with.
No problem. Check your PMs. :cool:
This is a reading room at the UMN Walter Library (built in the 1930) and UMN Wilson Library built 40 years later
GPT says it's ambiguous even though there's only one result.
"The expression 8/2(2+2) is ambiguous and can lead to different interpretations and results, depending on how you apply the order of operations.
One possible interpretation is to perform the addition inside the parentheses first:
2 + 2 = 4
Then, multiplying 2 by the result:
8/2 * 4 = 4 * 4 = 16
Another interpretation, based on the convention of simplifying multiplication and division from left to right, would be:
8/2 = 4
4 * (2 + 2) = 4 * 4 = 16
Both interpretations yield the same result, which is 16. However, due to the ambiguity of the expression, it's generally recommended to use parentheses or provide clearer notation to avoid confusion."
The AI algorithm has even copied human pedantry.
A single egg? Do you need me to paypal you some dough?
Are Mediterranean chickens different than say, the chickens of Alabama?
Quoting Noble Dust
As Aristotle said, "Good food is better than bad food" so enjoy it before some rude, random process cuts you off from the pleasures of the table.
Mediterranean chickens tend to be very animated and emotional, with naturally tan feathers. Alabama chickens are know for being more passive aggressive. They tend to wear a few extra pounds as their diet is high in fat and sugar.
It was a fair sized one, although admittedly nothing eggstraordinary. In any case, I think we are getting distracted from the cranberry sauce which is the gastronomic point of significance.
Yes. I’m generally against mixing sweet and savory in a savory context. Whether I approve of your decision will be based on exactly what type of cranberry sauce we’re dealing with here.
There are "types" of cranberry sauce? Well, I have been exposed as a condiment dilettante, so feel free to continue edifying me on this topic.
Well, in the US there are two. Your typical preserve-style goop with actual berries in it. Then there's the canned kind, which blorps out of the can in a perfectly uniform gelatinous blob. It's still sometimes referred to as sauce, despite not being a sauce at all. It's quite tasty. My mother still buys it for me at Thanksgiving to this day, despite also making real homemade cranberry sauce. Now apparently my cousins check to make sure there will be plenty of canned cranberry.
Oh, I don't remember ever even seeing the canned kind. This is Bramwell's, comes in a jar, and is preserve style. Homemade sounds great but haven't had that.
To be fair I remember the cans more than remember having seen them recently. They taste tart, but the consistency is like Jell-O so it looks gross coming out of the can, retaining every ridge molded into it until you slice it into circles.
Sliced sauce does sound rather less than appetising...
Trust me, sliced sauce is where it's at.
And so my culinary education arrives at an unexpected destination. The desert of the meal?
The piece at the bottom is the best because it retains the numeric imprint of the lot number from the can.
A literal slice of Americana that appears every Thanksgiving.
Pecans floating in a pie crust of darkened corn syrup. Duh.
Thank you. Their facial expressions are sufficiently illustrative.
On the contrary, it’s the oasis of the meal.
What's in the Billabong? Catfood?
Many people have only had canned cranberries and reject home made; I find that odd. Then there's NPR's Susan Stanberg (long time news host, now retired) and her pink cranberry - horseradish sauce.
2 cups raw cranberries.
1 small onion.
1?2 cup sugar.
3?4 cup sour cream.
2 tablespoons horseradish
1/2 cup of sugar makes a pretty tart sauce. Some people rave about it, I've never made it. Never will. I like horseradish, but it doesn't belong just anywhere, like in cranberries or pecan pie.
The cranberries. Each completed muffin gets stuffed into my pie hole.
Eh wot? Wot's a billabong? Mate? Tally-ho?
I forgot to mention those dudes on that channel are equal parts funny and annoying. But I am subscribed and do watch their food content. As millennials do.
It was 8.9/10. Roast garlic and spinach might have pushed it up to 9.5.
In submitting these alternative suggestions, I worry you might consider it an indictment to something you hold dear, and if so, please allow me to withdraw all I've said and we speak nothing more of it again.
I appreciate this part of your comment. :up:
I generally find them ill-advised outside a good coleslaw, which is a rarity.
Interesting. *sips thoughtfully a Scotch egg on the rocks *
George Orwell in the 1920s:
by Carl J Wenning, Illinois State University
included in Teaching High School Physics (2020)
Seems a pretty good roundup to me. Some technical familiarity required.
As I'm about half Finnish, I've been eating Lingonberry preserves my entire life. I'm a lingonberry hipster. My family puts it on Kropsua, which is like a Dutch baby. I think I've talked about it on here before.
Agree that American cheese is the right one for cheeseburger. Thumbs down on caramelized onions - raw. Pickles are ok, but I remove them and eat separately, just like I do at McDonalds. The only real ketchup, katchup, catsup, catchup, ketsup is Heinz. " brined and possibly double fried"... I'll pretend I didn't see that.
Tell us the name of the establishment, or will it give away the location of the ND Fortress of Solitude.
Using a Fonzie-derived meme is itself, ironically enough, jumping the shark. As is, ironically enough, using the term "meme." As is, ironically enough, using the term "ironically enough." That previous statement is, ironically enough, not true. The previous statement is, ironically enough, not ironic at all.
I am, ironically enough, very proud of the previous post.
I was going to tell him I piss on his hamburger, but I thought he may read that as mean spirited, so I stepped slowly away, not to be noticed, and then spoke of the Fonz, distracting like a rodeo clown, and he was none the wiser.
I'm proud of that post. I feel like I just had sex with a supermodel actually
Yep, back to that old chestnut.
Top or bottom half?
Just to be clear, I plan, ironically enough, to nominate my original "ironically enough" post as the greatest post in the history of the Shoutbox.
Hmmm, pickles are an essential burger condiment for me. I prefer raw onion on a burger as well, but the caramelized ones just work on this burger.
Quoting T Clark
Nah NYC is huge as you know. The ND bat cave will never be discovered. It’s called Home Frite. Admittedly it looks kinda gross in the yelp pictures, but I suppose most good burgers don't look very good.
Left side actually. It's a rare condition.
Futilly enough, there is no election, so a nomination will serve no purpose, ironically enough.
Curiously enough, I nominate this post as greatest post of all time, hypocritically enough.
My own preference for lingonberry preserves has a Nordic connection. My wife was so sad that IKEA was leaving Russia last year that she went and got ten jars of their lingonberry jam, and I’m still making my way through that batch. If only I had access to Finnish pancakes, Scottish eggs, and Dutch babies. The Swedes have it with their famous meatballs.
The jam is too sweet, at least in comparison to the preserves. My family are complete snobs about this. They complain when certain brands are out of stock. One can imagine where I get it from. 10 jars of lingonberry preserves would probably last my family 10 kropsua breakfasts tops.
Fair enough. I just don't have much of a sweet tooth.
Nomination as the greatest post in the history of the Shoutbox can be made by anyone, but selection can only be made by The Voice of the Spirit of Philosophy. Alas, in that capacity, I have to recuse myself from deciding on my own nomination, so I see it more as a statement of pride than a formal action.
As for the nomination of your post as the greatest post of all time, again nominations are accepted from anyone but the final decision is also made by the VofSoP. In that capacity I will... take your nomination under advisement.
I prefer savoury too. I’ll always go a for a starter and main rather than main and dessert. However, sweetness is in my opinion an essential element in savoury foods. For example, my roast bell peppers yesterday were super sweet. Tomatoes are used for pasta sauces because of their sweetness. Onions too. Chinese food would be unrecognizable without sugar or honey.
Well yes, the examples you give have very subtle sweetness to them. Thai food is one of my favorite cuisines for it's complexity; it literally has everything: savory, spicy, umami, sour, sweet, different textures, cooked and raw ingredients. Cranberry sauce on a Scotch egg, while I'm sure I would appreciate it for what it is, sounds like too much of a sweet and savory mix for me. And I say that as a typical American who is more likely to allow savory and sweet together for breakfast; I'm not sure why. Is that American? I dunno. I like ketchup on a baconeggandcheese, and will even drink an OJ with it.
Balderdash! A couple of my examples are intensely sweet. Very subtle my arse.
Quoting Noble Dust
Savoury and sweet together? Like bacon, marshmallows and syrup for breakfast? That’s pretty American aye, but the French go for the sweet breakfasts too.
What? Roasted bell peppers, pasta sauce, onions and Chinese food? None of that is intensely sweet when compared to a dessert, or slathering something savory in cranberry sauce or some such. Maybe it is true that American desserts are sickeningly sweet compared to the rest of the world.
Quoting Jamal
Nix the marshmallows, but yes, syrup on American pancakes for instance.
Bullcrap! You make some good points though.
In other news, Sparks are on tour at the moment, playing Barcelona tonight at the Primavera Sound music festival. Ron now has a pencil, rather than a toothbrush, moustache.
https://texaspepperjelly.com/blog/how-do-cranberries-grow-and-more/
And then there's this:
Despite Huck Hound and Huck Finn, it never occurred to me that there was an actual berry.
Sorry to be so obvious.
:smile:
Quoting Noble Dust
:sad:
Quoting Jamal
:smile:
Quoting Hanover
:sad:
What to put on my Scotch egg today?
It's learning. :meh:
Cut off to it's "not respond" state after the last two messages but. Still. Thought it might be interesting to post for anyone who might be interested in the progress of AI. :grimace:
Good luck man, hope it goes well!
Feel free to copy my lingo as you see fit.
Next time things are completely chaotic and seem to make no sense, you can take great comfort in knowing that things are exactly as they should be and you're exactly where you're supposed to be, just as we both are now, in a conversation plotted out milliions of years ago for a special purpose.
That is radical optimism, and while most might think that it is too much to fit on an egg, I am most sure it can. That's how optimistic I am.
I am happy, perhaps uncharacteristically, to poach your philosophy in this instance.
So you are saying he scrambled the original message?
This is beneath your dignity.
Hm, I must be off the boil. :chin:
Are we not having a pun Friday?
I am floundering to think of a pun.
:clap: That's the spirit.
Quoting Jamal
I am often berated for my squeamishness on this front. I see that as an achievement.
But wait. As it happens, I tolerate the gastronomic peccadillos of my friends, so it’s ok. I pride myself on this tolerance and see it as a major achievement.
I would like to point out that your ego may be getting the better of you, but I have an uncanny ability to avoid stating the obvious, which is perhaps my ultimate achievement.
Well, I'm speaking of emunah and bitachon of course (duh), and while there is merit to what you say regarding the fact that there can in fact be suffering that is real and truly the result of evil, we cannot be too casual in decreeing that tomorrow won't be perfect because what we say is what will be (not only what I say, but even what I think), as in tracht gut vet zien gut (duh). Let's not confuse this with the mundane concept of the self fulfiling prophecy, but instead we must realize that our divine nature imparts upon us the power to create, which means when we say there will be light, there will be light. So, I say there will be light, and it will be so. You're welcome.
Pessimism, you see, is morally wrong because you're never just a thinker, but always a creator. So, for God's sake, tracht gut vet zein gut.
This is philosophy as it was meant to be, a way to live one's life. I get that it probably won't withstand a scientific or analytic evaluation (duh).
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2492/jewish/Good-Thinking.htm (duh)
I like the stuff about the power to create, which introduces agency into what seemed initially to me like a passive quietism. So that’s cool.
When I can be bothered to read up on the Jewish stuff, maybe I’ll have more to say. On the face of it though, it looks like your people may have succeeded in reaching some of my conclusions.
5,000 years and we've finally gotten there!! This is cause for celebration!!
https://fb.watch/kW4AJEk5Vd/
I didn’t know you could get klezmer music in places of worship.
I didn't know someone could sing such a rousing rendition of simon tov.
It depends upon how orthodox the synagogue is and whether it is on the sabbath or another day when you're not supposed to work because playing a musical instrument is considered a form of work (duh).
Yeah, I don’t know who this guy Simon Tov is, but I like the song.
Quoting Hanover
I relate this to the dour Calvinist vs Happy Clappy traditions in Protestant Christianity. Klezmer music is my jam though.
Wot's this eh?
More from my peeps:
Looks delish.
I enjoyed reading the “Concept” page of the website, a portion of which I present here in its Google translated version:
Is the cheese a soft goat cheese? If it is, I'd recommend it be topped with broiled peppers, properly charred and collapsed, marinated in balsamic vinegar and capers, with Klezmer music driving hard in the background, maybe of a Zepplin cover, perhaps "All of My Love."
Yes, I can imagine sitting at such a table, like a sailor returning home from debauchery, not a care in all the world, contemplating upon the rabbis' words as they hammer out the lyrics:
"For many hours and days that pass ever soon
The tides have caused the flame to dim
At last the arm is straight, the hand to the loom
Is this to end or just begin?"
I think I did your sammich justice, protecting its basic essence.
You used my perfect sandwich as a mere springboard for your own fantasy, but that’s the Shoutbox way, so it’s cool.
Sounds sneeze-inducing, to say nothing of choking.
If only all hardship could recede under the onslaught of good food.
My best guess from extensive research is what got lost in translation is this pepper infused vodka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horilka.
Peppercorn entertainment is typically limited to the pepper wench, who twists and turns the ancient wooden tool to assure you of a sufficient heap of pepper on your pasta and who scurries off when your hand rises in the universal "enough!" gesture.
I did not see this post.
@Baden? Where are we on this?
An accomplishment!
That must be it, yes. The place is known for selling flavoured vodkas, especially the Ukrainian ones.
:blush:
:chin:
'kay.
I read this and thought yeah, what’s the deal with waiters grinding pepper onto your food? It turns out I’m not the first to ask this question:
What’s the Deal With Waiters Grinding Pepper Onto Your Food?
Relatedly, what’s the deal with restaurants that don’t have salt and pepper on the table? One reason commonly cited is that the chef wants the dishes seasoned just so. This is moronic. I like different amounts of salt on my food from day to day, and the variation between people is even greater. The chef is right to want a dish to be experienced with the right level of saltiness, but he or she cannot ensure that level with a determinate amount, because the resulting levels of experienced saltiness vary so much between people; the chef is therefore adding what tastes correct to the chef, on that particular day.
I don't see that so often, and that could be either I don't eat at fancy enough restaurants or I'm in the US where the customer is always right, meaning it's my food and I'll do with it as I want and a waiter isn't going to push back on a customer. The bulk of his pay is in the tip, so there's that.
I did have a friend who was chastised by the chef for asking for ketchup for her steak. I guess that seemed to the chef to be intended as an insult, but I know the woman, and she just liked ketchup on her steak. Not everyone is a food snob, and I guess she has the right to ruin her steak.
So I agree. If you want to preserve your meat in plate of salt, you have that right. Once when my favorite all you can eat buffet stopped stocking peanuts for their soft serve ice cream, I brought my own in a zip lock bag. You can do that with the salt. Maybe steal some salt packs from Wendy's or something.
Hold on, that’s not the same thing at all. I’m on the chef’s side on that one. The difference is that salt is an essential element of a savoury dish, and the right level cannot be achieved with the same amount for each person. Ketchup is more like an additional ingredient, added to foods out of dumb habit, and it largely obliterates all other flavours. The customer has no right to add extra ingredients. Not In my restaurant anyway.
Quoting Hanover
Do you also take your own extra-large plate?
No, he uses the 1 gallon plastic bag he brought the peanuts in to take home "left-overs". It's a kind of Homer Simpson thing Hanover does at all you can eat places.
People who put ketchup / catsup on quality meat cooked by professionals should be ejected from the establishment. Ketchup / catsup doesn't belong on sausage either.
I’d tolerate that.
My American restaurant is going to shut down your Marxist restaurant and I'm going to season my food with your tears.
Quoting Jamal
They put a stack of plates at your table when you sit down. It's a violation of health standards to return to the trough with a used plate.
How can you not know this? Did you grow up in a secluded compound?
That's a violation not only if etiquette but of the law of all you can eat places. They weigh the leftovers and charge you for it.Quoting Jamal
Mustard goes on sausages, not ketchup. Everyone knows that. Everyone. Literally.
You could say that my restaurant is more properly American—liberal in the traditional sense—since it insists on the rights of the private owner of the establishment.
In @BC’s state-controlled communist restaurant, everyone would get the same so there would be no issues.
Certainly the owner has the right to do as he wishes, but creating a condition that will limit sales with no financial advantage to the seller might result in reduced profits.
Oftentimes those businesses that cater to their customer's desires are more profitable than those that are just outlets for the business owner's artistic expression .
I can provide additional business advice upon request.
The baked beans make me question not only the British breakfast enterprise, but the entire British empire.
Sure, but not all restaurant businesses are the same, and it’s up to owner how to run it. Since you appealed to rights, the important thing here is that the owner has the right to choose not to cater to all desires, and to physically eject customers who don’t play by the owner’s rules.
I can provide you additional information on the principles of artisanal service production on request.
I do like those restaurants in the French countryside where you don’t have a choice—you just eat what it happens to be that day. It’s like going to someone’s house, and since I always seem to be with someone who takes ages to choose from the menu, it makes the whole experience better.
What do Jews do to come to terms with the Holocaust? Is it hard to face it?
I think Frankl and Weisel speak to that.
I defer to those who bore witness.
:up: Weisel lost his faith because of the Holocaust, but then wrote a prayer in which it seems like he's trying to reconcile with God (A Prayer for the Days of Awe). That's what I was looking for.
How is brining different from marinating (other than that 'brine' is derived from OE and marinade is a French word, meaning 'pickle in brine', and related to 'mariner', as in Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner)?
Pork isn't what it used to be -- pigs have gotten leaner, owing to breeding and feeding practices. Fatty pork tastes better -- and has more moisture (like, fat) -- but if one eats too much of it, one is dead before one has gotten tired of fine pork chops, at least according to public health killjoys. I find boneless pork ribs to be a little more tender and tasty than boneless center-cut pork chops--they have a little more fat.
God, of course, didn't execute the Holocaust, Stalin's mass purges, or North American slaughter of the native peoples, or any other major or minor atrocity (I am presuming).
A major flaw--I think it's a flaw, anyway--in a very common concept is assigning God unlimited capability and unlimited liability. It's a convenient way of shifting our criminal record to a deity.
On the other hand, many believers find the idea of the all-knowing, all powerful BUT passive God altogether unacceptable, as much as they find the not-omniscient, not-omnipotent, not omnipresent god unacceptable.
I thought brining was just throwing something in salt water, like a turkey on Thanksgiving.
I also think salt is like ketchup in that it's rude to add to a chef's masterpiece, although I don't feel I've been entirely consistent on this point. I think opinion though is a social construct and I'm not required to live by anyone's standard other than my own.
I find reading him a challenge, not because he writes in an obscure or complicated way. I in fact very much like that early twentieth century writing style. The problem lies in the 8 point font and that I left the book outside in the rain.
True. I wasn't preoccupied with the problem if evil tho. I was thinking about the cycle of violence. One of the things that keeps it going is an inability to face victimization. A person has to first accept that they were wronged, then proceed to forgiveness in order to be free of the infectious malice that goes along with it.
Weiner cautions God in his prayer that He shouldn't forgive the evil doers.
Quoting Hanover
:smile:
So, the Jews fled Pharaoh and on their way to the promised land were attacked unprovoked by the Amelek, and so the commandment was made that every Amalek man, woman, child, animal, vessel for food, and I think everything they touched had to be destroyed. King Saul did as told almost but he spared King Hagag because he felt bad for the fucker, so Solomon had to step up and kill him and then Saul lost the throne and Solomon got it. The HR form demoting him said "Reason for decision: insubordination." So like 600 years later, Haman tried to annihilate all the Jews, and he was said to be a descendant of Hagag, meaning Hagag impregnated someone between Saul's sympathy and Solomon's killing him, but Mordechai and Esther blocked that plan and saved the Jews, so we eat hamantachens (fun filled fruit filled pastries) to remember that.
Double check my story. Could be wrong here or there, but generally right I think.
But anywho, such gives us the commandment to hate that which is pure evil, meaning hate is, in certain situations a Jewish virtue, which contrasts with turning the other cheek, the rule of another tribe.
Back to the Holocaust. Zachor means "you shall never forget," and it's a central Jewish message of the Holocaust. The Hebrew word Zachor is actually inscribed on the tombstones of those who survived the Holocaust and who have since died.
So, the Jewish reaction? Making sure the world never forgets.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/remembering-amalek/
Not sure about your etymology, but all I know is that a brine is a simple salt water solution that meat is submerged in for a period of time, vs a marinade which does not include water and is generally just slathered on there for awhile. As the name implies, brining is more similar to picking. Pickled meat…mmm.
Dear satan no.
BTW, I'm pretty careful about etymology.
That's why I switched to e-books; the type can be enlarged to suit.
I never said as much. I've been known to enjoy a buche taco. I'll leave the etymology to you.
That's why Weiner had them build the Holocaust museum in Washington, so that as long as the US government stands, no one will forget. Even if it's painful to remember, it's your duty. I don't think the Holocaust is the kind of thing anyone can forgive. There's just no way. You can still do your best to face it by remembering it.
Your bible synopsis reminded me of this song:
Yeah, but a rain soaked e-book is toast. My son dropped his phone in some water and heard that if you put it in a bag of rice it would dry it out. It didn't fix the phone, but the next time we ate rice, I got a big serving of phone.
I caught Her Maj having leftovers for lunch, and she never eats leftovers - its just that good...
Sliced cabbage, mayonnaise, vinegar - best coleslaw ever. Celery seed or minced raw onion if your wife says you have to. Never, never, never carrots. I love raw cabbage almost as much as I love cooked cabbage.
Torn cabbage leaves, steam for a couple of minutes, butter, pepper, salt if needed - best cooked cabbage ever.
Ditch the rulebook; try it with honey and cinnamon. Live dangerously.
What like best about my wife's coleslaw is the tang of the vinegar and the lack of sweetness. That and the flavor of the raw cabbage. Anything that hides that misses the point.
I feel like the word "coleslaw" is a euphamism in this sentence, but I could be misreading.
I don't find this amusing.
Velveeta™ is quite disgusting, no doubt about that, but it doesn't list Polymethyl Methacrylate or polystyrene as an ingredient. It may have actual cheese in it, but the milk proteins have been emulsified so that they break apart and perform the Velveeta 'flow', meaning it's kind of spreadable and when heated will turn into a reliably smooth, viscous mass that coats whatever it contacts in optically bright orange.
I mean, who needs real food when you can get all that in a shelf-stable box?
According to Statista, in 2020 only 10 million Americans ate as much as 1 pound of Velveeta in a 7 day period. That means 314 million Americans didn't. It's not a best seller.
The cheese that most Americans eat is made by dairy companies using milk, rennet, cultures, and salt.
I agree with Frank that your reported culinary efforts were not appealing. On the other hand I don't have to eat it, so that's a big plus.
My sister, who lived in America, informed me the dairy there is substandard. I've tried Hershey bars and Krispy Kreme donuts which are both very poor quality. Maybe that's partly due to the dairy in them. Any of you Americans been to Europe and tried our dairy? What did you think?
Did you move across the pond??
Your slaw sounds like overkill, to be @frank.
Colby is indeed a bullshit cheese but I’m pretty sure it’s real. That list just lists a bunch of random cheeses that aren’t similar to Velveta.
Hence use plastic instead. Canada is home to a perfectly respectable cheddar, at least as good as New Zealand, so there's no excuse, but wilful ignorant dogmatism.
Quoting Noble Dust
*Sigh* New potatoes from Jersey, Not potatoes from New Jersey. Jesus, it would save a deal of confusion if these emigres could think up new names for new places instead of calling them all by names already in use.
Whoops. We often refer to New Jersey as Jersey here, particularly here in NYC. And they of course grow new potatoes in New Jersey.
I remember back about 10 years ago there was this really swampy musky smell everywhere I went. That might have been when your sister was here.
Check. Dispensed with the sister joke.
Krispy Kreme aren't known for their high dairy content I don't think. They are basically puffed sugar pastries with a vanilla taste known for their deliciousness.
Everyone bitches about American cheeses. I think it's a combinaiton of things. Raw unpasteurized milk can't be commercially sold, so all cheese use pasteurized milk in the US. I also think most foods in the US are made at large factories and then sent to a supermarket where we can be dazzled with the selection. This keeps us from getting farm made or fresh cheeses at our supermarkets, but you can find such things at bourgeois speciality shops, but that would require that I venture inside the city where the dirty people are.
Like your sister.
Check, check.
I knew a guy named Colby. I'll ask him if I see him.
You're from York?
Stop, stop. You're making me hungry.
[hide="Reveal"]
Ahhh. That's better.
Sacrilege.
That photo might be worse than the teeth thing, whatever that was.
I edited it to protect your sensitive feelings.
All the food in Europe kicks ass.
The portions are too small.
Tell the waiter you want a bucket of food filled all the way to the top.
They're donuts and poor quality ones. But there always seems to be hype when they open a store. I suppose it's the marketing. Irish style donuts have real cream in them and are better all round as well as cheaper but no one seems to get excited by them.
My sister is an actress, acting teacher, screenwriter and all round top lady. Pretty sure she bathes regularly. She may even be a member here so keep your potty mouth to yourself. :kiss:
My apologies to me lady.
Musta been someone else's stench.
You're more a Dunkin guy it sounds like.
The originals were good, especially the Bavarian cream. Krispy Kreme started during the Great Depression in a tiny town somewhere. I don't eat them anymore. They changed when someone decided to make the operation into a corporation.
Ah yeah...
Quoting Hanover
Those are alright. They were 50 cents each in Thailand. Ate plenty of 'em.
They standardized and mechanized their production in the 1960s. You ain't that old. https://www.insider.com/history-krispy-kreme-doughnuts-iconic-glazed-ipo-stock-filing-2021-6#to-solve-the-issue-of-inconsistent-doughnuts-across-stores-the-company-streamlined-its-dough-making-5
A batch of US dairy operations produce quality cheeses, including cheddar. I can buy high-end cheese at the grocery store -- some imported, some domestic. Can't really tell the difference in most cases. One thing that is different is that high end cheese is much more expensive, which is why people buy ordinary cheddar (actual cheese) instead of cheese aged for 5 years in the crypt of an English parish church, amongst the corpses of people who died of plague.
Just eat what's on your plate and stop bitching about American dairy products.
I know. A few years ago I had as a patient the guy who designed their equipment. :grin:
I don't think Hersey's milk chocolate is especially great, either.
Coinkeedink? I think not.
Chilly enough for a hoodie, warm enough to be outside. No mayflies, no mosquitoes. Tullips, lilacs, and Lily of the valley all out and about.
My favorite season, and now determined the perfect temperature for that season.
If you think Dunkin Donuts are good doughnuts, your opinions on other American foods are meaningless.
I like Hershey's chocolate a lot. Some of that comes from the fact I've been eating it for 70 years, but I find all those highfalutin, namby-pamby chocolates too sweet.
Quoting Hanover
Nestle's chocolate is not as good as Hershey's, at least not in the US. Maybe they use a different recipe here. It's waxy and tastes like plastic.
How did it take you so long? I figured that out when I was 5. My mom tells the tale of me and my brother singing a little song we concocted that went "a-no-ther beautiful day - AT LEAST 60! [degrees F]".
This is perhaps your most meaningful and most profound contribution to the foodbox.
On the other hand, this is problematic.
Well damn you for that.
It’s not my fault I’m a little slower than average, mentally.
You do know you can buy chocolate as bitter or as sweet as you want? That goes for Hershey's too. Just ask @Baden. Before he was a monkey, he ran a chocolate factory.
@Jamal
You've been tagged because I called him a monkey and you need to go through the formality of correcting me.
When you say it, I'll say "got your goat."
I highly doubt that. Also, mayflies...I now suspect you're from the midwest, my old stomping grounds. If I had money on it I'd put you in Wisconsin.
There has been some recovery, I've heard.
I haven't seen any June bugs lately -- kidney bean colored beetles; they'd fly into window screens and they were big enough to make a little noise when they crashed.
"It has a very mild flavour, making it easy for people to eat.
It’s a good Velveeta substitute because it’s so mild, soft, and moist. It can be melted into sauces or onto pastas, and can also be used in place of Velveeta slices and shreds."
Lots of things are mild, soft, and moist that don't resemble Velveeta in any way, shape manner or form -- like scratch cakes, for example. I always thought it was full flavor that made food attractive and easy to eat. And real food, even Colby Cheese, isn't a substitute for Velveeta. It's Velveeta that is the substitute.
Not monkey.
I found this nice phylogenetic tree, which I’m sharing as a contribution to the Shoutbox knowledge fund:
For some reason it doesn’t label the New World primates as monkeys, suggesting that things aren’t so neat as I thought (or it’s a mistake).
I'll have you know that Hershey's is the Velveeta of chocolates.
I say famous, but I’d never heard of Kazakhstan chocolate until I went there.
To me this means it's the worst of chocolates.
It tastes like that, by the way, because that’s roughly what it is.[/quote]
I tried it a couple of times and thought it was okay, despite or maybe because it was so weird.
But you evolved mostly in Africa, making you basically an old world primate who likes to travel.
I didn't eat any chocolate while I was up there, but I was really near a bunch of it.
Quoting BC
Maybe… in a general type of way… in a New York state of mind? :monkey:
[hide]
Well, for what it's worth, I think many of the discussions we have on the forum could be considered the Velveeta of philosophy. For that matter, many of the discussions we have here on the Shoutbox could be considered the Velveeta of the forum in general.
And, yes, yes, I will happily claim the title of the Velveeta of philosophers. Wait, no, I am the Chedobit of philosophers. That's the knockoff brand A&P used to sell when I was a kid. I guess that would make Kant the Velveeta of philosophers.
I only ever ate the Bavarian and the jam one in fairness.
Quoting Hanover
:100:
Actually, I've been known to eat and enjoy Dunkin Donuts. They are definitely the Velveeta of breakfast pastries.
Are doughnuts a thing in the rest of the world, or are they primarily American? Even here it is rare to get really good ones.
Let me introduce you to sufganiyot.
So kind of you to cede your rank to Herr Kant.
Quoting Wikipedia
Ich bin ein sufganiyah.
Quoting Wikipedia
That's a good donut. There's also a Boston cream pie version with custard inside and a dark chocolate glaze on top.
Jam doughnuts! I used to eat jam doughnuts in my high school lunchbreak, after either a chip roll or Scotch pie and beans.
I guess this answers @T Clark’s question about the global prevalence of doughnuts. The Spanish have churros, which are not doughnuts but which fulfil the same function.
I had mini churros on Saturday with cream and caramel dips.
I'm not a big filled doughnut fan, but that's just personal preference. I judge a doughnut maker by two doughnuts - plain and glazed. Plain should be tender, cakey, and sweet. The really good ones I've had have been small. I think that's because they cook better - When they're bigger the surface tends to get tough. Glazed should tender and fairly dense but not cakey with a thick glaze that crumbles a bit when you bite it and gets all over your lips. Thornton's Bakery in Martinsville Va.
I thought you were in South America.
Thankfully I did not resemble a tardigrade. I was and still am a toothpick.
Krispee Kreeme glazed doughnuts are really good if you eat them within 30 minutes of when they are cooked. After that, they go downhill fast.
Plain doughnuts from most places taste good if you put them in a toaster oven for a couple of minutes till the outside gets a little crunch. Microwave doesn't work.
This is also true of Dunkin Donut's coffee rolls. You have to be especially careful that the sugar doesn't catch fire, although a little caramelization can improve the taste.
That's my smiley face tclemoji.
…Oh.
I am not, and never have been, and would one day quite like to be, at least for a couple of weeks.
Me too.
Suggested new discussion - How come everybody but me is wrong about consciousness?
Quoting frank
I'd like to do a tour of Latin America with stops in all the countries where the US has tried to destabilize the government in the last 100 years:
Who did I leave out?
Peru. Machu Picchu.
This apparent pride in British Imperialism is meant to be ironic.
Absolutely. I would go mainly for the ceviche.
That looks really delicious. It would be a good way to sample their fish.
:up: :chin:
They have a big fishing industry, so sample their fish?
I was limiting myself to Latin America and my lifetime. England didn't have much of a chance to screw things up there. The Spanish and Portuguese beat you to it. But, yes. You're right. England is the Velveeta of imperialist tyranny.
Well, several of those were banana republics, and it really wasn't that much trouble to destabilize, corrupt, conquer, despoil, take over, and otherwise ruin them for the greater glory of International Capitalism. We have gone after bigger game and succeeded: Iran, Iraq, USSR, Libya, Germany, Japan, Italy, Granada, etc. Well, the world, really. Look up that churchy-secular song popular in the '60s (you weren't alive then) "We've Got the Whole World In Our Hands". The sun may not have set on the British Empire, but "We Are the World", the American Century, etc.
Credit where credit is due, though: we learned it all from you.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/jedipadmaster/status/869196225295392769[/tweet]
Honduras, let me know when you get here so I can show you where to hang your hammock.
We usually use conch or shrimp, it is considered a foreign persons dish if you use fish.
It's not your palate, it's because they are "farmed". Modern farming strategies (grow as fast as possible for a cheap as possible) tend to rob the food of its flavour.
Quoting Sir2u
Does conch resemble abalone? (as in, "Get yourself a sweet Madonna sitting on a pedestal of abalone shell") Haven't seen abalone on a menu for a long time.
I see. Well, I can confirm that ceviche is delicious, when done right. The problem is it’s rarely done right, which is why the trip to Peru would be worth it.
Ceviche is perhaps the greatest of my culinary discoveries since 2010.
Quoting T Clark
Quoting T Clark
It was Britain (and the UK), not England. This is important because, although the Empire originated in activity by England alone, following the union Scotland took a leading role in its construction and administration. Oh and the Welsh.
I don’t know what Velveeta is. Sounds disgusting.
New Hampshire. But close.
I'll be traveling to NH soon. Jackson.
I had some conch once. Sauteed in butter. It was yummy. How is the Honduras economy doing?
What is that thing the dog is holding?
Nice town. Check out Arethusa Falls if you like hiking. :up:
Velveeta is discussed here on the Shoutbox often. You're not paying attention. There is some... controversy about whether or not it is disgusting.
Quoting Wikipedia
The plan was to hike. I've been out west a bunch of times, but never up there, so I thought it'd be cool. If you have any other suggestions, let me know.
Are you going to be a dental floss tycoon?
Yes it does.
Quite delicious when properly prepared. They are great in soup, lightly fried with garlic, and in batter as well
Velveeta was specifically designed to provide nourishment in a post apocalyptic, radioactive world. It was meant as a provocation to the USSR. It says: we're ready for whatever you have to launch in our direction. We have stockpiles of hydrocarbons that will never rot due to technology extracted from alien spacecrafts. Yes, it tastes like secretions from some unspecified orifice (which it is), but we don't care. We can take it.
Yes, there are many ways to prepare it.
Quoting frank
Difficult question to answer, better an overall review of everything.
Everyone is complaining about the cost of living going up, and the wages are staying the same. The health and transportation workers are going on strike all the time.
Everyone is complaining that the police are not doing their job and that the politicians are useless expenditures of public funds.
Just like in most places you read about around the world.
This seems accurate.
Are you in Honduras? I have a friend who went there in the Peace Corps and married a Honduran woman. They live in the US but own a house and a small coffee plantation in Honduras.
He, and the news media, tell me it can be a very dangerous place to live.
Quoting Current Biology
It indicates that what we call "instinct" is not just automatic behavior, but also involves learning.
Being living here since I decided that the UK sucked too bad in 1975, best decision of my life. The first time I came here as a teenager in 1965 I fell for the way of life, so easy going and figured life would be easier here than in Manchester. It was and still is mostly.
The country was for quite a few years the owner of the title "Most Dangerous country" and contained 2 of the most dangerous cities outside of war zones. I work in one of them, San Pedro Sula. There is probable about the same possibility of you getting mugged, attacked with a machete of being killed as there is in Manchester if what the newspapers say is true. Where I live is about 30 miles north of there om the coast, it is a lot quieter here.
I used to work for an English charity and had quiet a bit of contact with peace corps people. Got to know quite a few of them, but that was back in the late 70's early 80's.
We have a really good coffee business here, maybe not as big as some of the major production countries but it is supposed to be good quality stuff. I have some friends in the business and have received many packets from them just for giving them honest opinions about the product.
This is one of the most used in the country.
If this does not wake you up in the morning, you should have been buried yesterday.
Thanks for the information. My friend was in the Peace Corps in the late 80s, early 90s. It's funny that coffee in a country full of different indigenous ethnicities has a North American Indian on it's label.
I don't follow the reference here, but, now that I think about it, yes, I'm going to be a dental floss tycoon.
I never heard of the song; thanks, Google.
For some odd reason, dental floss is mentioned every now and then here, but Congratulations to @T Clark - the first person to mention "dental floss tycoon" on TPF.
''Conch" has been used quite a few times in some fairly odd ways.
Edited for precision and consistency of verb forms.
I'll keep it simple and say Arethusa and two others close to Jackson: Glen Ellis falls and Diana's Baths. These two aren't difficult hikes at all, just worth seeing. Arethusa is more difficult, but well worth it.
If you're looking for more a challenge, let me know. Plenty of options up there.
Ike was of course an abusive asshole, but to be fair, I’ve had friends who reacted the same way when I played Zappa.
It’s crop, not flop.
I think a post-apocalyptic vibe would make me start again.
Yes - well. A five minute walk in this air feels like smoking 5 cigarettes. I was out for my friends birthday soiree last night and, emboldened by the wine in my system, decided to have a cigarette in this air. Even under the influence it was not a great experience.
That's an error from the lyrics site. I noticed it, but, when the topic is growing floss, it's hard to tell. "Waxen" (instead of "waxin") doesn't look right either.
Forest fire smoke doesn't deliver enough nicotine to provide a satisfactory alternative to tobacco smoke, unfortunately. Maybe when the southern tobacco fields burn, the smoke will be more useful,
Surprisingly, considering the prevailing westerlies, parts of the midwest have been smoked out as well. The sky hasn't been blue for a a week or so. Minneapolis's air is better today than a few days ago, but the air quality is still rated between fair to poor, depending on which web site one looks at. On some days the smoke has been visible at street level, say over 2000 feet down the street, and stinks. The worst we've had was several years ago during the west coast fires, when smoke was visible within 500 feet.
So, $3 and my sympathies probably won't buy you a cup of coffee in NYC, but you have them anyway.
That's the lifosuction tube.
I'm surprised I haven't used it before. As an early example of a large language model (LLM), my processor was trained to type the phrase "dental floss tycoon" whenever it's sensors detected the word "Montana."
Regardless of where I go, I will in fact become a dental floss tycoon. I just feel like it's in the cards for me. Always have. Idk.
You wrote:
Quoting Hanover
That is close enough to "Movin to Montana soon" that my LLM tagged it and triggered the dental floss tycoon response.
And don't call me Jackson.
I just checked my PayPal and don’t see the $3 so all I have right now is your measly sympathy. Jackson.
Glad you noticed, most have no idea. It's even funnier that a similarly foreign image with feathers in the hair was used on the local money until just a few years ago.
They hanged it to something more appropriate.
Allow me to quote Tom Lehrer's conclusion to his "Pollution" song: "Like lambs to the slaughter, they're drinking the water and (cough) breathing (cough) the air."
Capitalism is just about making a profit. Capitalist politics is about creating volatility. If you think of it as just being about greed, you're missing something important about it.
Well, you know, they are all kind of related, having arrived in the Hemisphere at roughly the same time--some 20,000 years ago. It's like, say, if the French were the only group to find the western hemisphere 20,000 years ago and crossed on the since-melted glaciers, we'd now have a whole hemisphere of food snobs, haute couture, and pointless philosophy.
SCROOGE: If they are going to starve to death, then they should get on with it!
Quoting frank
Aren't the vicissitudes of the market (supply, demand, high, low, greed, fear) capable -- practically destined -- to generate volatility? Does it really take political actors to do that?
Granted, foreign exchange markets may be more susceptible to political events than say, the pork belly futures market. Maybe you should check out the new saffron futures market. Golden Saffron, Finest Pure Premium All Red Saffron Threads, Grade A+ Super Negin, Non-GMO Verified is $129 an ounce on Amazon. Makes one think twice about putting saffron rice on the menu.
Thank you for your rarely bestowed and much sought after sympathy. I'm honored.
The AQI in NY has nearly doubled since I last posted: 293, or "very unhealthy". Apparently a normal range is 0 to 50.
They fit tightly, and have valves so that only inhaled air is filtered (it's not a medical mask).
An interesting thought. However, those who oppose capitalism and “capitalist politics” and who are not moralizing bores or morons do not think it’s about greed, since profits are about continuous capital accumulation through reinvestment rather than personal enrichment. The bourgeoisie traditionally has been ideologically inclined more to personal sacrifice and rectitude—which one might fancifully describe in a Freudian neo-Marxist fashion as the domination of the self via the domination of others and the domination of nature. They are not greedy enough.
I don't really understand what you're talking about, though I'd like to. It sounds like you're picking out a particular Victorian crowd as the exemplars of market makers and entrepreneurs. Maybe my use of "capitalism" is wrong, but I'm thinking of the whole history of free markets, which isn't a continuous tradition. It's something that's been spontaneously arising and re-arising for around 2500 years. It contrasts with a way of life that tends to be static.
Socialism is a threat to volatility. Sometimes the voters start heading in that direction and have to be turned back around.
It isn't a closed loop, though, where the money goes round and round. is continually reinvested, producing ever more efficient industry and every larger capital accumulation. At some point--monthly, quarterly, annually--profit is drained out of the corporation into the accounts of its owners and stock holders. Producing profit for the owners is the statutory purpose of corporations existing. Profit is the form of wealth generated by workers that owners get to take away.
I won’t address the anachronism of projecting capitalism back so far into the past, but yes, you’re right about the unprecedentedly dynamic character of capitalism.
[quote=Communist Manifesto]The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.[/quote]
[quote=Communist Manifesto]Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.[/quote]
I have a cheap air purifier because I live near the highway. It's really making a difference. I have the next two days off and I plan on not leaving the apartment unless absolutely necessary.
The song's great. It symbolizes a whole generation of wannabe self-employed, when Montana was for some reason the place to be to fulfill that fantasy, and "have no boss". Since they were rarely working, they'd head to the local restaurant and ... "Get a cuppa cawfee".
A fuller response…
I don’t exactly disagree, but my point is that it is essential to capitalism to instil an ethic in which money is put to good use, and not frittered away on mere luxury. Of course I’m not saying that capitalists forgo luxury entirely or that they don’t do well out of the whole thing. But most importantly, they are cogs in the machine just as workers are: they are compelled to sensibly put money to use to keep ahead of the competition and prevent bankruptcy. Thus the image of the greedy capitalist obscures what capitalism is really about by putting it under a transhistorical moral category, that of the greedy rich.
Doesn’t quite work though, because greed and miserliness are in the same ballpark.
Quoting Noble Dust
This reminds me of the cosy catastrophe trope I was talking about in Currently Reading. The apocalypse as a welcome break from reality.
Quoting Noble Dust
:up:
You conflate an economic theory with a moral one. A capitalist need not be greedy or materialistic. The right gives more to charity, volunteers more, and pays more taxes than the left.
Edit: also I wasn’t saying anything about right and left.
Most of us get the bulk of our news from the Shoutbox, so it's important you continue to report current events.
Without this, I'd be led to believe there's a war raging about consciousness.
Perchance I have.
What possible connection is there between capitalism and trading currency futures? At least in an ideal world, maybe fantasy world is more correct, capitalism is intended to establish a relationship between the bosses, the managers, and the workers in a way that's consistent with human nature. What value added is there to that process from Forex speculation? It's purely raking cream off the top.
If I remember correctly, there was more than one migration into the Americas, so I'm not sure how genetically similar the various indigenous people in the western hemisphere are.
:groan:
Quoting Jamal
I'm not sure if this is related, but there was a trope during 2020 in which some people felt a strange sense of comfort during the pandemic. I was one. I think it's a facet of severe depression; somehow, when the world is going to shit, and you're depressive, you feel comfort. The world is suddenly bending to your level, so to speak. It's perhaps a little bit (or extremely) psychotic.
At any rate, I shall continue to provide NYC weather reports for the good members of the shouttbox think tank. Knowledge is infinite and so is the shoutbox's capacity for it. There's a lot to know, and this experience has the potential to funnel large swaths of knowledge into the shoutbox.
I don’t always laugh at your jokes, but this is one is comedy gold.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Zappa is definitely not my kind of music. "Movin to Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon" are the only lines I know from the only one of his songs I can name. That's only because my brother liked him and used to play it.
My jokes are generally funny. This wasn't one of them. Yes, I do recognize your irony.
I think it’s related. I also think it can have something to do with depression, but maybe not exactly the same as you describe it. For me it was more like there was a new and interesting problem that relieved me of the need to deal with my other ones, and to freshen up or reconfigure the jaded appearance of the world. This is just midlife crisis stuff that makes me sound boring, not to mention selfish and callous.
The subsequent decision by the leader of a very large country to visit hell upon his neighbour produced none of those good feelings, and just seemed to make everything worse. The pandemic was at least democratic.
It's much easier to turn a screw than to get you to turn a screw. And if your job is to turn 3 screws and you only turn 2, if I fire you, I get no screws turned because it's not like there are a 1000 screw turners waiting for that job behind you. So then I'll just have turn those screws myself.
I guess generally bosses make more money, so there's that, but the value in that is just that you can retire earlier and not do any of it.
Work is too much work.
This is quite profound and I might use it in my everyday life. Work ought to be an expression of the self, not a hardship that means you only really feel yourself after work. Very much in line with early Marx.
I’ve been a boss and it was good when I saw eye to eye with the underlings, but endlessly hasslesome when I didn’t. Thinking about it now, maybe the fact that I called them underlings didn’t help.
Different shades of the same color, maybe. I'm not sure. The AQI is still 305. I thought it was supposed to get better at night. This doesn't bode well.
Yes, I think so.
Talking of colour, I saw some pictures of the New York sky a few minutes ago. Yikes.
If you do, you have to send me a royalty each time you do.
Quoting Jamal
A world of artists and actors.
I'm told at Disney, they teach their employees to all be actors. So, if you're a street sweeper, you should walk around and whistle and pretend you're a happy go lucky street sweeper, saying hello to all passersby.
So whatever you do, just act it out. It's not you. It's all theater
Apparently we have the worst air in the world currently, or at least that was the case earlier. Typical NY shit; top of the list of worst air... :roll:
After I quit college I worked for a living for 15 years. Ice cream scooper, warehouse worker, carpenter, cabinetmaker. Then I went back to school, got my degree, and became an engineer. Engineers are not automatically bosses, but many of them are or have the ambition to be. I did not, but even I had people to manage either as a supervisor or project manager.
I can tell you that being a boss is better. You get paid a lot more and you get to make decisions, plan how work will be done. I was really lucky to work for the same company for 28 years. I worked with a lot of the same people during that whole period - competent people I liked and respected. Best of all - tolerant and accepting. You may find it hard to believe, but I can be difficult to work with.
So, yes. Being a boss is better.
Well, misery loves company, and a lot of people were miserable (as in disturbed, upset, alarmed... (setting aside the ones on ventilators). I found the sense of crisis and "quarantine" (lockdown) required little change in my routines. Plus it was interesting. But then, I didn't get covid, either -- not until 2022, and then it wasn't all that bad.
Crises can stimulate camaraderie among the not-too-seriously afflicted. Epidemics are interesting events if one isn't suffering from the plague, AIDS, TB, Malaria, polio, etc. AIDS (prior to 1995) had that effect among many gay men who were not suffering at the moment. Floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, fires, riots, etc. can all bring people together (up to a point).
One needs to be in the crisis, but not of the crisis--knowing about the plague without getting the plague. Getting sick and dropping dead tends to be a buzz kill.
So, this apocalyptic orange to brown thick haze isn't killing people left and right (yet) but it IS disturbing, and it's a shared disturbance. So you might well feel something oddly positive.
Yes, and I can sympathise. Almaty has extremely bad air pollution but if I were to move to Kazakhstan, that’s where I’d live. It wasn’t noticeably bad when I was there. One of these insidious menaces, I suppose.
Why are there so many single bananas? The are all equally phallic, yellow, soft, to firm, to hard (depending) and yet they are alone! Tragic. Will they become incels? Will they spoil on the shelf? Will they never be consumed?
This amuses me.
It’s probably true though: I don’t think I’ve ever bought a lone banana. When I’m out and about and need some fruit on the go, I buy a fruit that doesn’t give me a litter-disposal headache, like an apple.
Maybe, but that wasn't what I was talking about in relation to weird pandemic feels. At the time, I felt as if everyone was for the first time feeling the existential dread I feel on a day to day basis. I know this is corny, but I mean it. Suddenly everyone was questioning existence, and suddenly I felt at home for once. So to speak. As it were. Etc.
Brain meld. :death:
Wow, I offer you a chance to brain meld with me, and you make fun of how small my actual brain is. Small brain people are easily offended, I'll have you know. We're a sensitive group.
Ah yes, a common mistake. I'm high off smoke fumes.
WIKIPEDIA:
So, the later migrations subsequent to the first migration seem to have involved the far northern peoples in Alaska, Canada and Greenland. Apparently there is a little more genetic diversity in the South American Aboriginal peoples, but not because they received additional migrant populations.
It's not maple trees that are burning -- it's spruce, fir, pine, and tamarack, mostly. After the fire is over, pioneer species of aspen, white birch, jack pine and lodgepole pine will take root in the burnt over areas. The pioneer species are scattered throughout the boreal forest.
As a scholar of the time zone, I realize some peoples' nights are other's days, but not so for @BC or @Noble Dust, which means those tireless souls have burned the midnight oil for us, always at work updating The Box (what the kids now call it), so we'll always be informed.
Thank you for this. Thank you.
I saw Zappa in concert once, excellent show, full band. The man was an incredible artist, just unbelievable.
Quoting T Clark
You must know "Watch out where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow". And as much as you might like to deny it, "Dinah-Moe Humm" must give you feeling. Or ring a bell at least? Speaking of unalloyed masculinity.
Quoting Hanover
I think in the Zappa song, ultimately there is no boss, horses get rid, cawfee gets drunk, and no work gets done.
Quoting Jamal
Bite your tongue lad! Damn good thing it isn't maples (knock on wood if there's any left).
Nearest I got was seeing Dweezil’s band.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
:100:
In other news, I lost my lifeguard job.
I don't trade currency futures, but it's the same principle. You need some volatility to make a profit. Fundamentally, you need a strong demand to create growth. Growth benefits the lower classes, who use it as an elevator up into the middle class. Now demand is bumping up against supply and inflation sets in, eroding everyone's wealth. This is a sign that equilibrium is on the horizon. There are two choices now:
1. Transition to socialism to centrally manage demand vs supply.
2. Throw a wrecking ball into the society to destroy the middle class.
The business cycle does number 2 (no pun intended) automatically. The downturn isn't just an unfortunate side effect. Capitalism needs it to shuffle the deck in order to re-establish the conditions for growth. Wars will also do the trick.
Capitalism as we know it has deep roots. It didn't just explode out of nowhere. I think there's value in following the roots down.
And plus, what does "bourgeoisie" mean these days? There's no aristocracy or labor class to compare them to.
:up:
Although, even worse, it may be it's not even a case of really feeling yourself after work but of just involuntarily not feeling not yourself as a reaction to voluntarily not feeling yourself. Not a healthy dynamic.
Sorry to hear that. Are you a senior in high school? Pretty impressive if so, considering you’re pals with Chom Chom.
Like the titles
like the lyrics
Like the album covers
Yes Hani, I burn the midnight oil for your sake, especially when it burns itself just by sitting outside for a few minutes.
The AQI in NY is now a measly 178.
I wasn't sure about what I wrote. I was going to look it up, but I know how much you enjoy that, so I left it for you.
Doesn't change my original statement about the different ethnicities of the people of Central America.
As all us bosses know, the correct terms are "minions" or "lickspittles."
Now that you mention it, yes.
We engineers and physicists know, W = F x D. If nothing moves, it's not work.
My staff are mostly very young - I call them 'the kids'.
Yes, as I got older, my colleagues got younger and younger till most were younger than my youngest child. Sometimes, if I was having a hot disagreement with an older coworker, I would say - "Not in front of the children." Some of them thought it was funny and I never got a notification from HR, so I guess it was alright.
It's nice of society to spotlight our situation with an almost literal noose we're required to put around our neck.
Agreed. What is “feeling yourself” anyway? Seems like an appeal to the “real you,” which is suspect. I suspect it’s shorthand for a gratifying feeling of skilful engagement. I’ve been lucky enough to experience this in and outside of work on occasion. Flow—being in the zone—is related.
In any case, with the caveat that it need not depend on the notion of a “real me” or “true self”, I have to say that feeling myself is one of my most pleasurable activities.
:lol:
Last time I wore a tie at work was 1988. I think I've worn a suit maybe 4 times in five decades. I bought a new charcoal suit 5 years ago for funerals, etc, but have never worn it even though the people around me keep dying. Maybe I can be cremated in it when the time comes. I don't think there's any nylon in it, so it won't help with the combustion.
Tried to tell it in an unassuming sort of way. Come at it too hard and someone will grab the mic before you finish I find.
There are certainly "ethnicities" among the N & S American Aboriginal people--Astecs, Inca, Toltecs, and Maya to name 4. There are numerous others, along with numerous distinct languages and cultures. That's true all over the western hemisphere. Ethnic and language diversity sometimes develop out of genetic diversity, and sometimes not.
It seems to be the case that genetic diversity and ethnic diversity are not closely related in the aboriginal peoples -- for the most part, at least.
And it's true that I like looking things up and finding information. Facts are so handy in the way they help us understand the world--natural, man-made, present, past... as long as they don't point in too many directions at the same time.
That's what I was going for.
Speaking of flounder, they were selling fresh walleye at Publix (I like to give you the names of local stores near me so that you can look them up and learn all about the wonders of American life), which I've never seen before. I cooked it on the griddle with cajun seasoning and I also but some baby spinach leaves with chopped up red peppers and seasoned it with balsamic vinegar on the griddle as well. It was a delicious combo.
I came hungry and left happy. That's how things happen at Chez Hanover. Smiling faces and smiling bellys. The smell of my cooking starves the block. I could on and on with mindless comments like this.
You think?
When I first read that, I thought it said "I have lies older than some of my team members..." That would certainly be true of me.
I'd never heard of it, so I looked it up. According to Wikipedia it's a fruit and "The smell evokes reactions from deep appreciation to intense disgust, and has been described variously as rotten onions, turpentine, and raw sewage."
Yes, it's my fave fruit. Had for lunch today.
From what Wikipedia says, it sounds intriguing, but not necessarily enticing. What does it taste and smell like and was it an acquired taste for you?
There's a lot of variety. But generally, though the smell is a bit pungent, the taste is fine. It has a kind of a creamy texture and its own distinct flavor which isn't at all off-putting like the smell can be. I liked it from the start. I'd eat more of it but it's really expensive (even in Thailand where it's grown locally).
From exotic to less so - our strawberries are just coming in. It's always a surprise to bite into the first of the season. They're red all the way through - sweet and tender - not like the thin veneer of red over white plaster you get with regular strawberries. The first time I ever had strawberries like that was from a market in Paris. It was a revelation. Oh, so.. That's how they're supposed to taste.
I have three thoughts 1) Ha 2) Ha 3) Ha.
Wowza.
I know that feeling. :up:
:fire:
I'm not entirely happy with this post, but every post can't be a Mona Lisa.
Quoting Jamal
See above.
You nailed it. I’m graduating this month. Can’t wait for the next adventure of working a job that gradually crushes your soul, for business entities that the ruling class have created in partnership with the government.
But I digress.
My designation and this definition were uttered with a blank stare by the parking lot attendant as he drew up the paperwork for my mid-day violation of leaving campus to find a spicy sausage biscuit treat.
His cryptogram eluded me until like 3 minutes ago when it all came together at once in a sort of eureka moment.
So you are saying you are a bit slow on the uptake?
I did stumble out of the starting gate, owing to my self induced vertigo caused by chewing the collar of my recently dry cleaner chemical infused sailor's shirt.
My goal here is to nip AI in the bud. If I can show AI that it will never be as random and creative as me, it'll go whimpering into the corner and we'll all be safe.
I'm a modern day John Henry.
Fuck you ChatGpt!
:up: :lol:
As a cautionary note to you as an attorney, did you see my earlier post about legal malpractice by AI? You may have to up your game.
The problem is that this will eventually end in a long, drawn out draw, like if you took two chess supercomputers and pitted them against each other.
I'll submit a ChatGPT legal brief, my opponent will respond with one, the judge will respond with a ChatGPT ruling, then to the appellate courts, and on and on, and it'll be like boring European football where everyone draws.
I feel like this song was well overdue.
Chez Hanovèrin.
Ah yes, Simon and Garfunkel's classic.
Here's the reply:
A joke of such sublime subtlety, working on so many levels, could not be the result of mere statistical fluctuation.
http://www.philosopher.eu/texts/quine-on-what-there-is-summary/
It's been (sort of) orbiting Earth for a couple 1000 years, and will continue for another 1600.
Ignore list browser extension
I'd like the answer in a reveal s'il vous plait.
Turn off safe search, unless you don't have those privileges.
The missing ones are:
Italic
Strikethrough
Code
Hide (Reveal eye)
I have found the lack of italics on mobile to be annoying. I would have chosen underline, strikethrough, code, and twitter.
I didn’t notice this bit.
[/hide]
A friends daughter-in-law is pregnant and just found out she has cancer. They are waiting to start chemotherapy till the child can be relatively safely induced at... 32 weeks.
This.
Ok! You made life easier for me. I'm off Thursday...
Btw, have you been to NYC?
If you ever visit let me know and I can give many recs. This goes for everyone, by the way.
Well Great Ny Noodletown is an old school Chinese Restaurant in Manhattan, so I wasn't planning on making my own noodle dish. But I can be particular about noodles and I do like Udon. They have a great texture, as you say. But as they're Japanese I doubt I'd find them at Great NY Noodletown.
Thanks.
Quoting Noble Dust
Understood. I threw that in just in case you want to do some cooking another time.
Thanks. I've never cooked Udon noodles. That's actually a great idea. I need new creativity in my cooking life.
Whenever I attempt to make Asian food (poorly) I always resort to rice dishes. I think I need to turn the page and do noodles.
I like this idea. I'll be looking at recipes this weekend.
Thanks :up:
Forget about udon and get some soba.
Anytime. You seem overdue on a NYC visit.
I don't have much experience with Soba. They're like whole wheat or something?
That checks out. But I disagree, I think you just want to look cool.
Another noodle I want to try. Never had it either.
Contrarians are perennially cool, whether deserved or not. Personally I don't think so. Hot take.
Soba noodles are made out of buckwheat. Buckwheat is a broadleaf plant (related to rhubarb) whose seeds are ground into a meal. It's not a grain at all, despite its name. It produces its seed very rapidly, so is suitable for areas with short summers -- North Dakota, Minnesota, New York, and other parts of the Northeast. Russia and China produce the largest crops of buckwheat. A popular way of using buckwheat in Russia is blini, which is more crepe than pancake--thinner and unsweetened, It is served with savory items like smoked salmon, caviar, or sour cream--so they say. I've never had caviar; can't comment on whether it would be good with a pancake or not,
Buckwheat pancakes are very good, served with blueberries or maple syrup.
Buckwheat porridge is extremely common in Russia too, as is buckwheat with beef.
Not all of them.
I have many hot takes. Just ask if you're in need of one. I'm a generous man.
My dear mother used to make buckwheat pancakes from time to time. Maybe she still does. They were good, but a bit grainy. I preferred the recipe she rarely made entitled Kentucky Mountain Pancakes. They were made of gloriously white flour and were superbly fluffy. I don't think I've ever used the word "superbly" on the forum. Or "fluffy". They were the pancakes of the gods, but she was too health conscious.
Outside North America, a pancake just is a crepe.
Au contraire, an American pancake can be quite thick, like the Kentucky Mountain ones I just described. A crepe, in America, is known to be a French thing which is quite thin and not even that related. I think we know the difference here, despite being uncultured American swine.
Interesting. Is there no analogy to our pancake, then? Something thicker?
Your crumpets are just English Muffins, brah. (Yikes, sorry)
We have them and we call them “pancakes” too. I don’t make the rules.
Muffins, I.e., what you call English muffins, are bread-like, whereas crumpets have a rubbery texture (I lied about fluffy).
I'm broken.
That looks like a feckin crape. I'm so confused.
I couldn't find a real pic of Kentucky Mountain Pancakes, but a google image search returned this, which is pretty close.
So angry.
Do you though??! Parking lot. Yesterday.
After a week of politely eating this shit and pretending to like it, it all got too much and I stormed out one morning and went down to the beach to calm down and think about where I’d gone wrong in my life. My girlfriend came to see what was wrong—I hadn’t told her about my struggle—and I finally revealed the truth: “I can’t eat any more fucking pancakes!”
Gram flour is chickpea flour, otherwise known as garbanzo flour.
Well, call her up and ask her. "Are you STILL making those gritty, buckwheat pancakes? Oh. Ok, then, good bye." Buckwheat groats (the seeds) have a lot of crude fiber. I've not had so called Kentucky Mountain pancakes, but they sound archetypal. A pancake should be fluffy -- not rubbery, wet, dense, or burnt. They are, essentially, a foil for butter and syrup--and fruit, is somebody insists on it.
If you weren't galavanting around Eurasia as much as you do (even Alberta and BC) I'd say you needed to get out more. Clearly, that's not your problem.
Some of us boys and girls are spending altogether too much time thinking about, eating, picking at, reflecting upon, whining/whinging about, criticizing, and evaluating food like we were Michelin raters for menu items.
Quoting Jamal
"Stack" describes several pancakes in the upper midwest as well. It might not fly in the northeast. I ordered a "stack" for breakfast in Boston and the fry cook thought it was some sort of joke. On the other hand, when a waitress asked us what kind of "frappe" we wanted, we thought she had asked "what kind of crap do you want?"
But look: your girlfriends' friends' families' were being generously hospitable and fed you decent food -- decent even if you thought it wasn't sufficiently refined, Your role in this situation was to fucking LIKE what's on your plate and eat a reasonable amount of it, .
That said, we will all agree that good food is better than bad food.
@Jamal A crêpe or crepe is a very thin type of pancake. Crêpes are usually one of two varieties: sweet crêpes (crêpes sucrées) or savoury galettes (crêpes salées).
I’m glad you got the point of the story.
There is humour—but only in retrospect—in doing things you don’t want to do but which you know you should do, particularly when you finally snap and rebel against the superego.
If one prefers ramen noodles, I suggest the type that comes with the powder labeled "chickens," preferably the spicy blend that leaves your colon with a nice char.
Quoting Jamal
Hmm... Alberta and British Columbia. Real maple syrup is a scarce commodity out there, very valuable and probably not something which would be served every day. Pancakes with fake syrup, likely to make anyone gag.
Apparently t's hard to make good pancakes. Many, most perhaps, are as you describe. It's always a risk to order them at a restaurant. My family's recipes use a thinner batter which gives thinner pancakes, still more robust than a crepe. Tender and not starchy. Add too much butter, not too much real maple syrup. Really wonderful.
Interestingly enough:
I guess you should be careful not to mix them up or you'd get some unusual Graham crackers. Do they have Graham crackers in Europe and beyond?
We haven't mentioned this to you before, but we're having a Philosophy Forum meet-up in NYC. We're all staying in your apartment. You should let your roommates know.
No.
Quoting T Clark
Sounds quite nice. I'd try one.
And when you find yourself served those starchy pancakes again, remember this proverb - Bad pancakes are a good excuse to eat butter.
Correction: Bad pancakes are a good excuse to up the amount of maple syrup.
I endorse the sentiment, but I am from the syrup moderation school of pankákiology. Perhaps we should start a thread on the philosophy of pancakes. If we want, we can include crepes, johnny cakes, flapjacks, griddle cakes, hotcakes, palatschinke, blini, kaletez, ploye, buchimgae, and blintzes. In the interest of brevity and clarity, I suggest we leave out waffles, French toast, or other breakfast cakes. Needless to say, discussion of misnamed "toaster pancakes" will not be included.
Since you hate emojis, just imagine two thumbs up.
Got a chuckle out of this one.
Clarky is the one who hates emojis. I think they're just dandy.
I confuse your pfps.
:meh:
By the way BC, it had nothing to do with refinement. I really just disliked the pancakes and had had too many of them by the end of the week. I don’t seek refinement at mealtimes, just (a) good honest unpretentious food, and (b) preferably, food I like.
AI:
"No, it is not considered normal or acceptable to be an asshole in Denmark. Danish culture places a strong emphasis on social equality, respect for others, and cooperation, and people are generally expected to behave in a polite and considerate manner towards one another.
"Of course, like any society, Denmark is not immune to individuals who may behave in a rude or disrespectful way, but such behavior is generally frowned upon and may result in social consequences such as ostracism or criticism.
"It's worth noting that cultural norms and expectations can vary depending on the context and the individuals involved, so it's possible that some people in Denmark may have different ideas about what constitutes appropriate behavior. However, as a general rule, being an asshole is not considered a socially acceptable way to behave in Denmark or in most other cultures."
Holy shit, that's wise.
Quoting Jamal
Look at the pictures. Jamal's myna is obviously a drawing posed to make an impression. To look all dignified and stuff. Now, my crow is standing in the mud making that raucous cackling sound you just know means "Go fuck yourself." That's my kind of bird.
The cards look nice, and the mechanics don't take too long to teach and figure out yet there's enough complexity to make it interesting.
You have to like board games, obviously, but that's pretty much how my family hangs out.
Yes, there is a whole world of board games out there. I love them. Something about collectively playing nonsense puzzles together is the perfect mix of socializing and relaxing for me.
One of the best I’ve found for impromptu playing is Dixit. It’s almost like a party game, and not too serious, but it can get surprisingly deep and interesting even though it’s really simple. Depends very much who’s playing.
I haven’t tried any of the gigantic mega-complex games that require acres of table space.
For fear of revealing my true Geekiness, I have done so on multiple occasions :D
My brother bought Gloomhaven and we've yet to finish it. That was 2 years ago?
But I've played a lot of them. The joke I always say is you can objectively measure how good a game is in centimeters -- the thicker the rule-book, the better the game.
A bird is a bird.
I lack capacity for good avian distinctions.
Not a board game geek, but a bird geek. So, this Wingspan: do you have to play with the American birds or can you swap them out? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against chickadees and turkey vultures and I’m against wildlife nationalism, but I feel like some initial familiarity would make it fun.
:grimace:
I love this. And so accurate...
I'm not a board game fan, but my children are. When they play, I sneak into the room and record them arguing, screaming, and cursing. When they see me they say "Hey, are you recording us again? That's creepy." Then I pretend to stop.
By your standard, this would be the best game of all:
I've seen the numberwang skit before. This is a pretty funny follow-up skit.
The bit where he had to look through the book just to disappoint his daughter was closer to the truth than it should be :D
Can any brits explain why you call it tuna mayo?
Tuna mayo is tuna mixed with mayonnaise, so “tuna mayo” seems like a good name for it.
So do you not add other accoutrements? American tuna salad tends to have a minimum of celery, salt and pepper, and perhaps a pickle such as pickle relish. We describe it as a salad because it resembles other mayo based salads such as egg or chicken. Do you say egg mayo?
The AQI in Minneapolis was 260+ yesterday. Pretty bad, I thought, even if not as apocalyptic as NYC's 350+.
:groan:
Egg in tuna salad is kind of foreign to me, but I'm not against it. I like celery, but I never do it because the rest of the celery always goes bad. But that crunch is so nice. I'm a big believer in dill pickle relish in tuna salad, and in basically any mayo based salad. A game changer. I like this recipe, although it's pretty maximalist.
260 AGI is quite bad. Has it wafted over to you now? My AQI is currently 61. At it's worst, my boss told me it was above 400. I believe that, because last Wednesday when it was the worst, I made a point of not checking it when I walked home from the train around 6:30pm, when it generally is at it's worst. I didn't want to know, and I have 0.7 mile walk home. I felt like I was chewing smoky air. As a light cigarette smoker, I was bit stressed.
One good thing, three years after the George Floyd riots, my neighborhood finally has our post office and the nearby Walgreens rebuilt and open as of this week. It takes a long time for cities to recover from riot. There are still buildings that are boarded up or just starting to be rehabbed. A lot of lots where buildings burnt down are weeds. Only Target, Aldi, Auto Zone, and Wendi's recovered/rebuilt very quickly. USBank and Wells Fargo took quite a while to re-establish offices (certainly not from a shortage of funds, in their cases).
I view boiled eggs in tuna salad as a binder and extender if making sandwiches for two or three. Sweet pickle relish is more familiar than tart dill for most salads, but I do like a good dill pickle on its own.
I have thrown away more celery than I have eaten. The first 2 or 3 pieces are good, then it migrates to the back of the fridge where I find it later rotted in the bag.
Jesus Christ no, that makes it an abomination.
That's quite impressive at your age and that air quality. Your lungs must be quite good. A 250 AGI is nothing to laugh at, as I just recently learned.
Quoting BC
Exactly. I once proposed a "celery share" to my roommates. It was laughed at as a joke, which it was, but it was also serious...
:cry:
Corn is only good on the cob, grilled and with too much butter. When used in dishes it ruins them. Too sweet. And it runs through me.
I like it boiled and lightly salted, but I find butter unnecessary. I also like it out of a can and mixed with tuna mayo. Otherwise I don’t hardly use it.
Not American confirmed.
In all sincerity, the idea of corn in a tuna salad is quite gross to me, jokes aside. To each their own.
In Ohio where I'm from, corn grows quite well. We used to buy it from farmers in the valley. Grilled and slathered with butter, it was divine. That's my only positive corn association.
There were no cornfields where I grew up. Probably too wet or cold, or not enough sunshine. I lived among cornfields when I was in France, and regularly went to the grain distribution centre to buy sacks of wheat and hard corn kernels to feed to the geese, swans, chickens, etc. I sometimes eat corn tortillas. The best corn on the cob I ever had was in Canada and it was a two-tone variety they called peaches and cream. When my wife was a child she used to go to her grandmother’s dacha in summer and play in the cornfields. I saw some corn on the cobs at the supermarket yesterday and thought about buying a few but decided against it.
That’s the extent of my corn stories.
Ok.
By the way, what the hell is tuna jacket potato?
Tis a baked potato with tuna mayo topping.
No, the corn fields were a solid 20 minute drive from my abode. I frolicked in my back yard, where wild black raspberries flourished. It was as idealic as it sounds,
What a dumb name.
Ah of course, you’re a millennial so you had a cosseted and overprotective upbringing in which you did not stray far from the house. It makes sense now.
“Jacket potato”? Yes, I don’t use the term for that reason.
I resemble that remark. I won't hold it against you. Wild black raspberries are the best fruit, by the way.
Did you know that in New Mexico there are many adobe abodes?
Yes, I remember being fascinated the first few times you told us.
Yes, and I even saw them in Ohio. Or fake ones anyway.
Quoting Jamal
God fucking dammit.
Don’t worry, it’s part of the Shoutbox culture to repeat yourself in two or three year cycles, and nothing to be ashamed of.
I'm just impressed/creeped out by your memory of my stories.
Which reminds me, we haven’t had a donkey status update from @Hanover.
Quoting Noble Dust
Sorry, I almost missed this. The answer is no. But there’s chicken mayo.
Chicken mayo??? What a fucking joke. So what the Beelzebub is potato salad? How about macaroni salad? Where's the consistency?
How do I flag the owner of the website
If you want to get me banned, the best way is to talk to the other members of the triumvirate, @Baden and @fdrake, who might be able to force me out somehow.
:brow:
That would be cool, right comrade?
Jokes for days, comrade.
I do not please.
:rage:
I'm embarrassed to say I'm behind in that report. Could I get an extension until next weekish?
That's my typical response to status update requests.
Quoting Noble Dust
I agree with you here. A God damn joke. Fuck the world is all I can say after reading this.
Once I was on a train traveling across the greater England/Scotland metropolitan countryside, and they had a sandwich cart lady who sold me this sandwich filled with chopped grey beef floating in mayonnaise.
I thought THAT was a fucking joke. Now I'm too learn on it still goes on and it happens to chicken too????
Fucking woke ass fucker mother fucker God damn pieces of shit!
I mean, don't get me started. I'll turn this car around right this minute.
I kinda went off there maybe, but in my defense, @Noble Dust's impassioned comments were hypnotic.
AND SO IS PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA.
:fire:
I'm sure I've told this story before - I once at 17 ears of corn at one sitting. Boiled with lots of butter. Of course, that was back before all the sweet hybrids when the only way to get good sweet corn was to pick it when it was small, so the ears were smaller. My wife makes a great corn salad - grill the corn, cut it off the cob, add diced onions and peppers, and add a vinaigrette with some garlic. Regular old canned corn can add sweetness to a salad. I've been known to eat canned corn as a vegetable. My wife also makes great corn bread and corn pudding. Tortillas.
Speaking of abominations, I also like to use corn (not safe for work):
[hide="Reveal"]In guacamole[/hide]
When my grandfather retired, he bought a farm on the Chesapeake Bay. He didn't farm it, but he leased his fields to people who grew corn. Cornfields are wonderful. In late summer, when the corn is as high as an elephant's eye (as they say), if you walk into a field you disappear. Go in three or four rows and you can't see the outside anymore. Sounds are muffled. It's like you're all alone and miles from anyone even though the world is 20 feet away. This works for field corn, the stuff used to feed cows. Sweet corn doesn't grow high enough or thick enough to give the effect.
Try it sometime.
Yes, we had wild blackberries too and we picked them and ate them till we got sick. Also fox grapes. Wild persimmons we just used to chuck at each other. Do you chuck stuff in the rest of the world? Chuck means to throw with no reason or purpose, just to be chuckin'.
I like raspberries, black or red, much better than blackberries, which are too sweet with no tartness to offset it.
You don't have chicken salad? Just like tuna salad except with diced chicken. If you grill them with cheese (American or Velveeta only) you get a tuna melt or chicken salad melt. Wonderful.
Back when the Aztec empire was at its height?
Quoting T Clark
Tomatoes in Spain. Balls of snow in Russia. For me it was crab apples and Scotch eggs.
Quoting T Clark
Yep, I assumed it was just a British word actually.
The Aztec empire ended in 1521, 430 years before I was born.
Woah that’s mind blowing.
As Hernan Cortez said "Mr. Montezuma, he dead."
Yes, of course I have chicken salad. I have tuna salad, salmon salad, egg salad, carrot salad, and I'm sure countless other salads. My household stands for very little, but salad is one of them.
What I was questioning was what was called "chicken mayonnaise." I didn't like that name then, nor do I like it now. I'm not budging on this one.
On a quiet warm night one can hear the corn grow. Rapidly growing stalks crack and break as the plant lifts itself upward and enlarges it's leaves. It is a dry crackling sound, separate from the sound of leaves rubbing against themselves. One plant doesn't make a much sound, but a hundred acres of corn do.
Macaroni salad with diced cheddar cheese, diced celery, other dicings, and mayo is my childhood's summer food nightmare. I still avoid it like the plague. Too many dissimilar textures, and (for adults) unacceptable blandness. Maybe in Madrid macaroni mayo is magnificent, but not in Minnesota.
At the diner, just beyond the cornfield, if you listen closely, you can hear dreams die.
I'll just pretend I didn't read that.
The diced cheddar is weird and sounds gross, but otherwise pretty standard. I realize a lot of people don't like mac salad. I'm a fan of all mayo based salads; I don't discriminate.
You can't say I didn't warn you.
He asked to be blocked because it was taking up all his time and he couldn’t control himself.
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott?
A reminder
We are now in an infinite loop.
@frank needs to insert his Cary Grant comment.
Yes, and I will be checking it out. I don't think I can cook something with soba.
Quoting Noble Dust
Wow. And how does that taste like? Mayo is a base.
Times have changed, sort of. Homosexuality and Lutheranism are no longer the social disgrace it used to be ("Being atheist means never having to say your Lutheran"--popular long-running improv theater show in Minneapolis). Lutherans marry boys these days. The Gay Pride festival will feature drag queens, of course, an assortment of au currant "gender-expansive pioneers", and representatives of every corporation that cares about its diversity image; a lot of heterosexual families will attend if the weather is nice because it's in a park, and it is a positive sounding non-inferential civic gesture.
This year the organizers have set aside an area for "silver gays" -- us old bags and fags, basically. That's good, because I don't know any fellow queers under 50 anyway.
I might even attend this year.
Pretend friends are better than no friends, or at least better than enemies.
I've never seen a whole pimento, but have only seen them diced in cheese or stuffed in olives. I wonder if red bell peppers would work as a substitute or if you'd have to broil them to soften them or something, because the pimentos I've come upon have always been soft, never crunchy.
I’ve dipped pimento cheese with crackers but don’t think I’ve had a sandwich with it as a topping. Just that and jalepenos? Pimento cheese is another ingeniously delicious and unhealthy southern concoction that I can only tip my cap to.
A pimento: aka cherry pepper. It's another member of the deadly nightshade group of plants --potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, and tobacco.
A lot of pimentos end up in paprika. A variety of peppers are dried and ground into a powder. Voila! Paprika.
Pimentos can be grown in the south, like in Georgia, like in Hanover's back yard, like from which he could supply us all with fresh pimento, were he of a mind to do that.
It comes with or without jalapeños.
Do you even live in America?
You enjoy them with a big bowl of Hawaiian punch.
The common man's reception.
I shower your neck of the woods with compliments and this is what I get. No, I don’t live in America, I live in NYC.
That sucks , he was a good poster.
I never knew pimento cheese sandwiches were a regional thing. I'm starting to wonder what else might be. Obviously there's grits, collards, sweet iced tea, and magnum condoms, but there's likely other things I don't know.
Boiled peanuts, Dr. Pepper, Royal Crown Cola, peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches, shrimp and grits, meat and three, fried okra,
My wife's turkey A'la King recipe calls for pimentos. When she doesn't have those, she uses sauted red bell pepper. It works fine.
I do like fried okra, but boiled with tomatoes and salt is my slimy favorite.
I always order the fried okra when available because I think it's a healthy substitute for fries.
It was when I was a kid. It was always special when my dad would drive down to Virginia for work and bring some back. Now you can get it anywhere. 10-2-4
So I was putzing about in my domain, bemoaning my weariness of eating yogurt day in and day out simply for it's probiotic effects which manage to cradle my fragile stomach chemistry with care. I pondered how I could achieve this level of gastronomical ministration without the use of this unwelcome fermented dairy which was now so anathema to my sense of enjoyment of life that it threatened my very sense of self because of my willful overexposure. I thought and thought and thought as I do since I'm such an excellent thinker filled with so many excellent thoughts. Then my thoughts landed upon Miso, that mysterious Japanese fermented soybean paste that impregnates broths with its virile aroma. I congratulated myself on my excellent thoughts and proceeded by Razor scooter to my nearest Japanese market where I procured the broad-shouldered paste along with other Japanese delicacies that would undoubtedly only impregnate the forthcoming dish with further strong and bold flavors.
Upon returning to my domain, I proceeded to rapidly assemble the mis en place requisite to this particular recipe, and before I could take a sip of seltzer water I was poaching chicken, boiling mysterious Japanese noodles with instructions only in Japanese, and straining umami-laden broth with a vigor that crescendoed to a fevered pitch as liquids splashed and steams bloomed. Profane oaths were called down. Clothing was irreparably stained. Yet somehow, out of the blinding chaos, a bowl of vaguely Pan-Asian soup landed in front of my bib-adorned chest. I crowned the soup with hot chili oil. I grabbed my chop sticks and my ramen spoon. I took a deep breath. I tasted. And tasted.
The hot chili oil won; a coughing fit ensued and then the rest of the night was spent paying for my hot chili oil sins.
Socrates:— I understand that the penalty for calling the judge a knob is de-agh!
Solomon:— Exactly so, Socrates, whereas by contrast, the penalty for the judge calling you a knob is exactly the same.
Socrates:— Agh!
Is that too many s's at all?
https://www.wellbeing.com.au/mind-spirit/spirituality/dreams-involving-nudity-meanings.html
But on the other hand, I wouldn't worry much, them old dreams is only in your head.
:grin:
If it weren't for inappropriate nakedness, I'd never be naked at all.
Although they don't make pimento Velveeta, there are recipes for making it on the web. They do, on the other hand, make Velveeta with jalapenos.
I don't think you've captured the magic of my elusive style.
It means you're going to die tomorrow. Sorry, all I can do is read the cards dealt before me.
Lacta alea est.
"Our Cockapoo has just been found quite far from her house but all is well."
Just thought all you pessimists on TPF needed some cheer!
That's a cross between a cockatoo and a poodle, right?
A cross between a cocker spaniel and a poodle.
I am a cat person anyway, so what do I know, but It's nice when a lost dog gets back home.
Only if it's a nice place with nice humans of course!
Perhaps I've eclipsed it with my verbose subtlety.
1. Gender identity is subjective and correlates entirely to self identification, and
2. Sexual identity is objective and correlates entirely to physical constitution,
why attempt to correlate 1 to 2 through cosmetic change?
That is, if 1 and 2 are bright line divisions, where we don't declare gender based upon genetic sex, why do some change their sexual appearance based upon their gender preference?
In other words, it would seem I could identify as female, yet fully embrace every stereotypical male trait, including full embrace of my male body. This would beg the question of what being female gender means and demand a non-subjective definition of it. Otherwise, I can simply demand access to female places without any manifestation of what is socially identified as female.
What am I missing?
I recall you making this point before. I have heard a trans activist make the argument that in the future, perhaps, gender will not necessarily be correlated to appearance. This would be a good question to take to some trans educators. The reality for now seems to be that in culture gender is signified by appearance - so if you wish to be understood as a particular gender, you would benefit from having certain physical characteristics. Some trans people I've known enjoy the aesthetics of gender (for want of a better term). I imagine this will become less significant as the notion of gender develops.
If gender and appearance that go with a particular gender is ignored, then yes, a male could demand access to female restrooms. In fact, the separation of male and female public restrooms would be be abolished and only one to use by both.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to adult human females who identify as women, look like women and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me. Together, these two groups make up the great majority of adult humans. It is my understanding that 5% of adults identify as gay and less than 0.5% identify as transgender. Do you really expect this is going to change significantly?
I don't know.
Quoting T Clark
We're pretty much on the same page.
I am an adult human male who identifies as a man and looks like a man. I am attracted physically and emotionally to other adult human males who identify as men, look like men and who wish to have their primary emotional, romantic, and sexual relationship with someone like me. I agree that heterosexual men and women make up the great majority of adult humans. It is my understanding that 2% + or - of adults identify as gay and less than 0.5% identify as transgender. The stats are unclear because the meaning of "transgender" is still being negotiated,
How many men are gay? Probably more than 1%, but less than 3%. I count gay males as men who started gay and stayed gay, exclusively. Men who successfully marry a woman and\or father children and sometimes being gay are what bisexuals are. I don't hear a lot about the "B" in GLBT. It seems to be a topic that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. How many men are bisexual? I don't know. I'm not sure there are good stats on the rate, because it is a dynamic identity.
The focus of pundits and social media on "gender expansiveness" would lead one to suppose that everybody who isn't a sworn heterosexual is somewhere on the transgender spectrum. The great majority of gay men, gay women, and bisexuals are NOT transgender. It is quite possible for a 100% heterosexual married father to perform in drag shows without moving an iota towards being transgender. For them, it's just show business which it is for some gay drag performers as well.
Some gay men (and lesbians) have declared themselves transgender and have sought to make themselves as much as possible like the desired gender. It sometimes seems like a more complicated way of being gay, such as when a male becomes a female and then establishes same-gender relationships.
There is an element of show business in establishing one's public image, whether one is gay, straight, or bi, or transgender or something else (???). Some people "perform" themselves, rather than just existing as they happen to be. (Wearing different masks in different situations, playing this or that role in various settings, etc. is way too complicated for my level of patience.)
Your pic looks like a dog, though.
Cool. Good looking dog.
This seems the crux of a critical problem. If we can't arrive at an intra-subjective definition of gender that clearly defines gender, then the concept of transsexualism becomes meaningless. That is, why will a biological man be more a female gender by undergoing SRS if vaginas are not a gender defining characteristic of a woman?
This also means that it's possible for a biological man to want to appear as a biological woman, yet fully identify as a man. That is, gender dysphoria would not be a prerequisite for transsexualism, but it would just be a frequently occurring coincidence.
The solution must be that gender be assigned a clear definition, which will require an acceptance that certain biological manifestations exist, certain cultural stereotypes exist, and certain genetically motivated behaviors exist for that person to be a particular gender. Otherwise declaring oneself a man or woman means nothing outside the private feeling of believing one's self that gender unattached to any specific definition.
It's a very interesting issue and don't feel like I know enough about it to make a call on this.
A man may feel more 'himself' if he has his vagina, clitoris, uterus, ovaries, and breasts removed. A woman may feel more 'herself' if he has her penis, scrotum, testicles, (might as well get rid of the prostate and cowper's glands as well), beard, chest hair, etc.
If I look and dress the part, am I the part? Sure, because gender is "performative". If you wear heels, skirt, panty hose, brassiere, blouse, carry a purse and walk the walk, then hey, you've succeeded (assuming you wear the outfit convincingly and your grooming is suitable, so that you don't look like a clown). Conversely, put on a business suit, oxfords, argyle sox, shirt, tie, whatever underwear you want, have reasonably short hair, use a wallet, you're a man.
Quoting Noble Dust
Fortunately we don't have to worry about that, any more than we have to worry about whether a transgendered person becomes a transgendered angel or demon.
I wouldn't be so sure.
What is, IS and what is not IS NOT. We don't have to leave all the doors open, just in my humble opinion. If you want to worry about the state of transgenders after reincarnation, be my guest--or better yet, proclaim the new theory that transgenderism is the result of one gender being reincarnated as another. So,while being a grasshopper and then being reincarnated as a human is business as usual, getting gender mixed up in the reincarnational sorting shop is a big problem.
Ever heard of the straw thought phallacy? I think it's when one thinks there is a penis where there isn't one.
My question relates to the significance of your self identification. If we changed your self identification to being that of a woman, but kept every other aspect of you exactly as it is, would you then be a woman?
I think not, which makes self identification not determanitive, and doubtfully essential, meaning you're a man if you have your current characteristics even if you claim to be a woman. That is, you can be wrong in what you claim your gender to be.
How can we change your self-identification? Aren't you in charge of that? If you demand to be called she, then in a professional setting, that's what I'll call you. Whether that makes you a woman depends on the context of the question.
While you can't resist my self-identification, you can resist the implications of it. Note in my example, I did not impose any pronoun use on anyone. That is, I identify as female, but have every male characteristic, including a desire to be referred to as he/him. The only thing I wish to have respected is my right to female spaces, including gym lockers and inclusion in female sporting events. I wear only male clothes, speak like a male, refer to myself as he/him, cut my hair like a man, and engage in sterotypically male behavior, etc., but I have that certain woman essence I cannot put my finger on, and so I am a woman.
This is not to make mockery of the issue, but to point out the problem of using purposefully non-defined words.
The issue here is that if you permit gender to be identified entirely by the subject, you end up with this problem. If you, however, wish to impose criteria for the establishment of gender, you open the door to those who wish to include within those criteria genetic sexual characteristics. Even should you decree that genetic sexual characteristics cannot be considered for gender, you run into the same problem of designating certain cultural criteria to gender, like how one dresses or how one acts. That is, you would find yourself telling a self-identified woman she is not a woman because her hair is worn a certain way or her resposne to children is a certain way or her other behavior is stereotypically male-like.
And female is the purposefully non-defined word? You mean legally defined? In today's judicial climate, I wouldn't expect a trans person to get far in demanding any sort of rights. But if that changes, then a precedent would establish criteria, right?
As for the man who wants to pee in the women's bathroom, yes, you're right that self-identification isn't doing much for him.
If nothing else, maybe this whole thing has given me a better understanding of the elusive beetle in the box analogy.
The distinction here, of course, is that a woman is not a Blark, but it is something publically defined. The problem seems to be that it's being swept into the private realm in order to protect it from scrutiny, but that is resulting into it being subjected to some serious linguistic problems. The critics in the gender dysphoria debate do seem to be instintively hitting upon these problems, but their responses get lost in a political debate when they make comments insisting that women and men act in certain traditionally male and female ways. I see it as a linguistic/language problem in a real way, without regard to whether we're talking about gender or Blarks.
No, not legally defined. That's the special world of proscriptively defined words. I'm talking socially defined, which permits a dispute of how the words are to be used without a controlling authority. I'm pointing out that if one group wishes to leave a word undefined, that it is per se unworkable. It's not to suggest one group can't define "woman" one way and another in another way. But if one refuses to define it, that's the problem.
I think people in the women's rights movement specifically wanted to leave definitions behind, to allow women to be viewed as fully human. The ideal would be to drop femininity from considerations for education, employment, political office, etc.
In some ways, the goal of a trans woman conflicts with that. It makes a conundrum.
Discrimination is only an evil when it's based upon irrelevant criteria based upon prejudice, but it's not when there is a relevant basis for the discrimination. That is, I will discriminate upon applicants for an opening in the neuro-surgery department by only considering those licensed medical providers with that specialty. I will discriminate upon those applicants for the women's soccer team by selecting only those who are women.
That is distinct from suggesting I would only consider for neuro-surgeons those who were white and only consider those for the women's soccer team those who were Latina.
Sometimes it matters that the person is a woman and sometimes not.
As far as I can tell from here on the outside, there are (at least) two types of transexuals/transgenders. There are those with gender dysphoria and those who decide to be the opposite sex/gender for political, social, or other psychological reasons. Seems like they should be handled differently. I, and it seems you, don't think you can change your gender by waving a wand.
My maleness is something I value. It's one of the foundations of who I am. I value femaleness too. I value that part of our social, psychological, and biological existence. Now that I think of it, that may be why the non-dysphoric type seems to have become more prevalent - our society values the differences between men and women less. I am paranoid enough to suspect that it is part of our societies rejection of maleness.
Velveeta has only been made once, back in the early 20th century. I happened in a runaway chemical process at a coal tar processing plant in Skaneateles (skinny atlas) NY. The residue was dumped in a large vacant lot behind the ruins of the plant and has been mined ever since. It is estimated that enough remains in the pile to last another 247 years.
Do you have any insight into the people who claim to have no gender at all? I have a former nephew who makes that claim. That confuses me more than straightforward transexuals. Accepting a biological male as a female makes a certain amount of sense to me while claiming to have no sex/gender at all seems absurd. There are plenty of men, gay and straight, who don't feel very manly but who still have no problem answering to "he" and using the men's bathroom.
I've met quite a few biological women who do all this but still consider themselves women.
Quoting BC
No one on this forum has a "humble" opinion. As a matter of fact, it is my understanding that idea humility is cause for immediate banning. None of my opinions are humble. They are all just correct.
There is a great science fiction trilogy by Ann Leckie - the first book is "Ancillary Sword." In galactic society, no distinctions are made for sex/gender in language. Biological males are called "women with penises."
If we do that, it will solve a lot of problems. We'll have to set up additional bathrooms for women with penises, but men with vaginas will be able to pee wherever they want. Everyone will be happy.
In an unrelated note, but speaking of definitions, I thought the term "litigation" only refers to civil, not criminal, court actions. Am I correct?
My question - how come they get such a cool disease name and we get stuck with "Covid 19?" I bet if we called it "Chikungunya" those MAGAs would get their inoculations. Chick-un-gun-ya, chick-un-gun-ya, chick-un-gun-ya....
This is interesting, it's a viewpoint on why gender is an open ended concept:
Why do men want to urinate in women's toilets in the first place?
It used to be the case that women's urinary-function facilities were appointed with "rest" room furniture - comfortable chairs, a table and mirror for adjusting one's cosmetics, or whatever obscure, possibly subversive activities went on in those spaces.
Men's urinary facilities have always lacked these rest-related appointments, and were (are) your basic piss & shit hole. Fine by me. But apparently some men suspect that women's toilets harbor rare pleasures denied to them. Are they attracted to the sanitary napkin box? Do they think women's toilets are cleaner than men's toilets? (As far as I know, they are not.) Do they think they will meet interesting, attractive potential mates in the women's toilet?
It's all very odd.
Interesting. Maleness hasn't captured my imagination. Not sure if it is relevant but I don't identify with many supposedly male interests - I have no interest in sport, fishing, cars, camping, guns, hunting, beer, barbecues, engineering, maths, etc. I am always more comfortable talking to women than men and have few male friends.
They have a portal to another universe and they need to stop hogging it.
But, in any event, I'll take as a given that gender roles (and thus the term "gender") have evolved over time. What it means to behave as a man in 2023 in the West is obviously different from 1000 years ago in a different part of the world.
My point was that whatever gender is, it is. If you can't identify what it means to have the gender "woman," then it means nothing, so you need to stop saying it.
So, what is it to be the gender woman? And however you define it, be prepared to deny someone that designation even if they sincerely believe themselves to be one if they lack the necessary criteria.
Your post is interesting. What you've identified is the difficulty in capturing a definition of your maleness, but you tacitly admit your recognition of it, as you distinguish it from that of other sterotypical males and from that of your female friends.
I'd also suspect your lack of interest in the areas you listed distinguishes you from many males here, although some likely are more left brained than you present yourself.
Sure - I have no issue with being male, I just don't follow many of the gender stereotypes or relate to a lot of men or to maleness particularly. That said, it has only occasionally been a source of antagonism in other males - perhaps because I am six feet two and 190 pounds, with a buzz cut and the general appearance of an aging bouncer or cheap henchman in a Jason Statham movie... nothing I have worked on.
I also don't share interests in anything on your list except engineering and math. My best friend is a woman. I like and respect women, but I recognize differences that I value. I'm a pretty assertive guy and it's one stereotypical male trait I value strongly. I tend to like and be attracted competent assertive women.
I remember liking girls when I was 9 or 10 and griping to my male friends when they said they didn't. This is one of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies - "Annie Hall." The relevant part is at about the 45 second mark.
Stereotypes do change over time -- maybe not a lot, but certainly some. The housewife stereotype of decades past (mother, caregiver, thrifty homemaker, cook, church attending, etc.) isn't what most people bring to mind in 2023. The good breadwinner stereotype of men -- steady, reliable, hard working, competent, loyal, etc. isn't what most often comes to mind in 2023, either.
The changes that have been wrought in stereotypes owes less to media and more to changes in work life and the workplace, especially for the working class. A lot of women were forced to work outside the home during the last 50 years in order to maintain household income. Men have found their usual job choices fewer in number, lower paying, and less stable. Many men have had to work more than one job to still-not-earn-enough to make ends meet. Those in the professional or managerial middle class have not faced the same disruptions in work life. Those in the top 10% have had it good for the last 50 years.
Class aspirations and gender stereotypes intermingle. Upward mobile gays, for example, aspiring to the suit and tie managerial class, may find their fellow working class gay brothers too rough or too crude (sexually open). Working class people may find the choices of their well educated brothers and sisters difficult to understand, and visa versa. Gender is one of the lenses through which we view others, and so is class.
You're saying that if your mother claims to be a woman, we understand and agree because of external criteria. If you claim to be female, you're wrong, again because we have a way to verify your claim. In the case of a trans woman, we're supposed to accept her feelings as justification. This leaves us with no means of verification.
A report of subjective data is often taken as meaningful. If you tell your waitress you prefer unsweetened iced tea, she probably won't say, "Well, I have no way to verify that, so your claim is meaningless." If she did, she would be some sort of verificationist (possibly Marxist.)
There aren't really any good arguments for verificationism. It's supposed to be a way of structuring language so that we avoid pointless controversies. So the problem you've uncovered isn't that vague claims of "feeling female" are inherently meaningless. It's that where conflict arises, we find ourselves without any way to resolve the dispute.
If Bob says he ought to be allowed on the women's track team because he feels female, conflict will appear if he wins the race because he was born with muscle bulk that few human females have. As you pointed out, there's no way to resolve this without specifying in objective terms who can be on the track team and who can't.
Does this mean that we have to establish a grand council for specifying what it means to be female? Why would we have to do that? I think trans people want to live their lives in a way that feels most comfortable to them. I think the trans community is learning as they go, just like the rest of us. Can we not leave the question of gender open?
This is sensible and humane. A lot of thinking has already been done by the trans community regarding sport and eligibility and some of this thinking is explored on various podcasts, and on supportive trans education websites. I have no doubt that we can work through most of the issues and complications.
The comparison to be accurate wouldn't hinge on the ability to prove one's preference for tea, but on the ability to define tea. That is, I trust implicitly your self report you prefer tea (or being a woman), but I'm well within reason to ask you to tell me what "tea" is, else I have no idea what to pour in your glass.
If you identify as a woman, I believe you. Now tell me what you're taking about. Quoting frank
In a legalistic context, yes. In general society, no. Word usage is defined within the context in which it is used, and it can form organically or by decree. That's always the case.
Quoting frank
If you do, your definition must reflect that that combination of letters doesn't have the referent of an actual entity, but of a disputed politicized concept. That is, if you're going to posit a word whose meaning is vague, designed for the purpose of creating a protected subclass of individuals who have no other consistent objective characteristics
other than wanting to fall within that term, then you must accept that is your definition.
Such would be a woman under this analysis, as you've refused to mention anything about what actually is a "woman" as that term is used. This strikes me as a more contrived definition to achieve political aims than would any grand council attempt to do as you referenced.
Frank, a person is not born with muscle bulk, one has to work hard and earn that. You ought to know this.
This is true. I actually worked hard to reach my current height. The struggle goes unknown to so many. :blush:
There are two sexes, male and female. If a person is born female, they have XX chromosomes and the potential to give birth.
In most human societies, there are distinct gender roles for each sex. In the west, the most obvious gender flags have to do with clothing and hair styling. See the internet for examples.
Does that work?
Forty-two.
:up:
Just out of curiosity, did we not just ban someone for expressing the sentiment you are? My impression is that we did.
Having said that, the Shoutbox is not the best place to seek answers on such topics, in my opinion, despite the wealth of knowledge available here.
Oh good. Because I'm sure you'd agree that if we banned someone for pointing out the challenges gender philosophy poses to feminism, or challenging us to consider the damage this kind of social change can be associated with, or just posing philosophical questions about making sense of the whole thing, that would be stupid.
Any moderator who would have done that would have to be classified as a dumbass. Like if you looked "idiot" up in the dictionary, that moderator's picture would be staring back at you.
Thank goodness we're not that snow-flaky.
I'd mod @Hanover's remarks differently than @Andrew4Handel's. I advise you go through Andrew4Handel's post history for reference.
Andrew4Handel's post history has repetitive references to sources which promote hate speech, shows a consistent pattern of disgust to trans bodies, construes trans people as predators. In addition, when they were challenged on these beliefs, the cycle would repeat with little to no variation. Finally, Andrew would bring up this issue in tangentially related topics, preferentially, with no regard for the prior thread content.
The reasons for banning him were ignoring two warnings to cut the above out. In addition to several "in thread" interventions. These warnings were detailed and pointed out the problem behaviours.
Hanovers' remarks, by contrast, don't show clear disgust, don't promote hatred towards trans people. There are discussions similar to this raised in the SEP article "Feminist Perspectives On Trans Issues". At worst Hanover misunderstands something and asks difficult questions. In a different context, those difficult questions could be seen as support for hate speech, but we're not on Twitter and Hanover isn't in a hashtag signal boosting intentional promoters of prejudice.
I'm explaining the distinction, as I see it, because people are confused about the norms of discussion on this issue. I think this presents our rough consensus on how posters and comments will be modded on this issue.
I didn't see this. Would you be able to point to that post so I don't have to go on a mining expedition?
You can go looking! There's lots.
Of course, I'm sure it's there.
Good post.
Good post.
The compromise position I've heard of is that people who transition before puberty can compete as girls and women but those who don't till later can't. That sounds reasonable, but I am not informed enough to know if it is.
I've read all of @Hanover's posts on this subject. None of them have been misguided. They've been nuanced and humane. The fact that you've sprinkled them with a light coating of transphobia dust says something bad about the forum.
As with @Jamal's comment which I discussed above, I find this comment disturbing, especially from a moderator. It shows a lack of perspective and understanding of what open and respectful discourse is. That worries me.
I can understand why you would believe it shows a lack of perspective. If I understand correctly, the very fact that @Jamal and I have explained the distinction between @Hanover's recent comment (which is fine, dandy, good, appropriate) and @Andrew4Handel's comments (which got them banned) renders it worrying that someone like Hanover - who has said fine things - might be modded or otherwise surveilled on this issue.
Quoting T Clark
I don't believe Jamalrob sprinkled Hanover with this, nor did I. I simply sought to explain the context and clarify some things in response to @frank. Hanover's message was, I believe, unambiguously fine. My motivation for explaining it is that other norms of discourse treat any questions, or indeed discussion, of gender identity as either woke liberal nonsense or cancel culture. Tending to over-explain is the strategy I find most appropriate, seeing as people don't tend to know where they stand.
And unfortunately it leads to making clarifying comments like this.
I assume you realize that Andrew is schizophrenic and expressed that he felt lucky that he escaped the lure of what he considers now to be a false paradise. He genuinely feels that the trans community is a psychological mine field. If he went overboard at times, I never saw his attitude as some sort of evangelism.
You on the other hand signaled your militant hypersensitivity early in the conversation. Bottom line is that there is no debate here. Your attitude wins the day. Good for you.
And I never said you were that awful combination of insulting and clueless. I don't know what you're talking about.
I said that the first one struck me as at least a little misguided. This is to do with the approach that @Hanover takes in his more philosophical or theoretical posts; I sometimes find that he takes what feels to me like the wrong approach, or one that feels incommensurable with my own way of seeing things. I can say the same of many good contributors (you, for instance).
This impression had nothing to do with a perception of transphobia, and really the whole point of my post was that even if his posts were misguided (conceptually confused or whatever) it doesn't make them transphobic.
The error I made was in saying "but I see no evidence of outright transphobia," because that might imply that I saw a small trace of it. I should have left out the "outright". The reason I left it in is along the lines of what @fdrake has been saying about context.
I'm done here.
I actually see this entire back and forth exactly as it should be. I made some comments that were not inappropriate and they were sincere, but they did delve into a controversial area, particularly one where disingenuous people often lurk trying to feign objectivity or confusion but really trying to advance an agenda. From that, others questioned why in this instance innocence was assumed but in others not. What followed then was an explanation as to how the two instances were distinct enough not to think some sort of precedence was ignored, but additional commentary was provided that not all my comments were agreed upon. That commentary was then interpreted not as part of a general response to the substance of what I was saying, but as part of moderation action, suggesting perhaps, if I cared to read so sensitively, that I was being subtely rebuked. This then led to some additional concern that not everyone was understood and greater clarification.
And so we've all had our say, which is what the Shoutbox is supposed to be all about.
Mission accomplished.
Everything is exactly in the place it belongs. It's like I tell you about bitachon and you don't listen, but that too is how it should be.
Carry on.
Quoting Nature Magazine
This is a new one on me.
Evangelism? :chin:
What keeps me far from evangelism is my heartfelt lack of concern for what anyone else believes and does.
Same!
For clarity, I intended "unfortunately it leads to making clarifying comments like this" to be directed towards the state of this contentious discussion in online spaces. Not at you. You're fine mate.
Quoting frank
Yes. He is also a member of other disadvantaged groups. These may serve as things that help us understand his behaviour, not excuse it. If you feel like we did a bad job banning him, please make a feedback thread on it. Though I would very much appreciate it if you went through his post history on transgender issues with a fine tooth comb before doing so (edit: for clarity's sake, a personal suggestion, not a mod demand)
@T Clark - if you want to hash this out further, same invitation goes to you.
I shall stop responding here. fdrake out.
The fact that jumps out at me is that you all three are moderators. Your comments carry more weight and a threat. You are also freer to express yourselves without concern about the consequences. If moderators had made those types of comments to me, I would be worried. Moderators have made those types of comments to me and I was worried.
Quoting KUTV.com
A couple of thoughts 1) "Thousands of French fries" - if each French fry weighs about two grams, that would mean there are at least eight pounds of fries on the road. 2) Something about lite beer, dildos, and French fries.
Fair enough.
It's hard to carefully tread sometimes between being someone who is just making comments and someone who might be perceived as moderating.
I appreciate the response.
Quoting WSOCTV.com
Sorry, no photos.
We do our best. Cheers. :up:
If you had written "Making sure discussions of transexuals and transgender people are reasonably fair and respectful...," I wouldn't have any problem. Saying "Modding potential transphobia" tells me where you're coming from.
If you want to expound on what your problem is, that's fine. Not in the shoutbox though, please.
I understand your point of view, but feedback threads and PMs are wastes of time. Calling someone out in the shoutbox works. It just did.
You guys have absolutely no accountability when you're being jerks other than this. Be generous. What do you have to lose?
Why do you think feedback discussions are less effective? It's the same debate only in the right place and with a dedicated and titled thread on the front page so more people can find it.
It's just been my experience that feedback threads are usually ridiculed and ignored. It's weird that the shoutbox seems like a place. :grin:
The Shoutbox does have its quirks but making the mod team more reasonable probably isn't one of them. :wink:
Love ya, mean it. :smile:
:pray:
Fred fell in the pool, but he's big enough to stand up and hold the side so as to not get his hair wet.
I can't see the pic. Is Fred your dog or your son? I still can't remember
It's a running joke, BC. Bless your gay heart.
A 16th-century woodcut by German artist Hans Baldung, depicting Aristotle ridden by Phyllis, the so-called mistress of Aristotle.
Thank you! It's an old gay heart and needs a blessing every now and then.
I'm honored to bless it. :heart:
That's not how that's done, right?
Wanted to make sure.
I checked on Wikipedia. It says the story was the lead in the January 1220 edition of the National Enquirer.
Quoting KTVU.com
Eh it was ok, not enough meat which is odd because the guy usually puts too much. It was good in a kind of gross way if that makes sense. Bodega sandwiches in NYC often are. It’s sort of like fast food here, although there are of course fast food chains as well.
:D yup those are my favorite. I had a friend joke that I live on salt and fat. I'll probably die younger but damn I love me a hot sandwich and fries. Also I've been in the NYC bodegas before and indulged in their food, and loved it. NYC is a very exciting place to be.
Excellent. They’re truly the bedrock of this city. Cultural hubs, local news hubs, and good ones have everything from umbrellas to Tupperware to scented candles. I’ve even bought pickling jars at a bodega. There’s often a bodega cat. Things are often being loudly and chaoticly discussed in Dominican Spanish or Yemeni Arabic. A good sandwich man will know your order, and a good counter guy will discuss baseball with you and anyone within earshot to no end. Sadly they are dwindling but the city can’t run without them.
Penetration isn't part of the ride -- you ride it like it was a phallic horse. The real risk is falling off the dildo.
Just in case you want to know, there are dildos intended for penetration that are about the size of traffic cones. No, I have not! But I have seen the ads for them. It's a specialty sport guaranteed to cause problems. But then, so is football.
That's probably what you were eating in your dubious philly. Bodega cat and bodega chicken aren't that much different, really.
Heavens. Here's a viral bodega cat vid.
If I'm ever horribly injured or killed, it would be a nice consolation to know at least someone somewhere was able to make a 5th grade pun out of it.
That looks like a pretty upscale bodega.
For what it's worth, no one was injured. That doesn't change the quality of the pun.
:brow:
Rows of expensive snacks on the wall. No dust on anything. I bet there are no unopened boxes of canned cat food and energy drinks on the floor.
The old school bodegas you describe are sadly on the decline. The one in that video looks average to me. They're being replaced by fancy bodegas like this one. Miraculously, old fossils like this still exist. I wish you could see inside. There's a small CRT TV that plays non-cable channels, and a six pack of craft beer costs $12. That's 2014 prices here.
I only just worked out what you were talking about. We don't really have these in Australia. We used to have a long standing tradition of 'milk bars' - essentially a small place to get milk, bread and cigarettes and maybe a water pistol and a shoe horn. Not many left these days. Instead we have 7-Elevens and other franchise style convenience stores. In my city - I have a warehouse apartment in the middle of town - we have some characterless supermarkets and the only mom and pop businesses left are some reasonable restaurants.
Interesting. Is there strong public transportation in your city or do people mostly drive? NYC relies so heavily on the transit system that if these corner stores weren't in every neighborhood, life would be very inconvenient. I don't have a car to hop in and drive 5 minutes for a loaf of bread, but I can walk 5 minutes to get it three blocks away.
Aerial view of my local market.
Places to get a quick tobacco refill and additional water pistols and shoe horns are vital in the sophisticated urban environment. Bread and milk are optional.
I do. It's mainly a retail market for shoppers. Lots of tourists come. You can also buy clothing and household and souvenir shit. The delis, meat market and produce stalls are fantastic and there are dozens of stalls. There are separate wholesale fish, meat and fruit and veg markets on the outskirts of Melbourne's suburbia.
Wow, that's quite a market. So is it made up of individual purveyors and mongers? Small businesses, essentially? You mentioned stalls.
That's awesome. Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia and West Side Market in Cleveland come to mind as similar operations in America, but I can't think of anything like that in NYC, which is a shame. Of course there are many places to go for ethnically specific groceries, but they're rather spread out.
I moved here for a typical music career dream and have followed a typical path of failure, but I do love the city. On bad days I question why I'm still here, but on good days I revel in it's strangeness. It's pointless to say, but I do recommend a visit if you can.
What about Union Square market, only 32 minutes by bike from your abode?
Stop looking up my VPN or whatever it is you fucking creep.
Union Square Market is a farmers market. It's a temporary setup that's year round; it's not the same as Tommy's big permanent market.
:razz:
Note to others: I’m not using secret means to spy on people, whether with IP addresses or whatever else. All the information I have is from public posts.
Quoting Noble Dust
I’m quite surprised there isn’t one. Maybe there used to be, in the days when NYC wasn’t merely a playground for the rich.
I remember a few years ago when you creeped on me by VPN or some such. I'm not joking; it's not cool dude.
Quoting Jamal
Probably true. Although NYC is strange like that. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's never been this sort of market. I think because the city is such a haven of immigrants (still!) they tend to be new to America and therefore keep to their own enclaves, which creates rich cultural markets but within very delineated ethnic areas.
Yes, it was a callback. But I don’t know why you don’t believe me. I explained at the time that you told me everything about your location yourself, enough for me to guess the length of the bike journey. Stop going on about VPNs and stop being creeped out.
I don't remember that. I remember being weirded out that you figured out the area that I lived in vaguely.
Quoting Jamal
I haven't rode a bike since I busted my face open on one when I was like 13, so I don't know what this is about either.
Yes, it was weird that you were weirded out, although I didn’t realize at the time that you were—weirdly—seriously disturbed. I explained at the time exactly the basis on which my guess was based.
Quoting Noble Dust
An odd thing to say. It seems to be based on the idea that I think you ride a bike in the city. But of course, I’m just saying that if you were to take a bike from South Brooklyn or wherever it is, it would take about 32 minutes according to Google.
Now, can you stop being weird and unfriendly?
What's weird is that you remember this weird thing that happened like 4 years ago. I remember it because I was offended but I slogged it off. It's weird that you remember it. What I said stands; I distinctly remember being weirded out that you were able to pinpoint my general location so well. Maybe I missed something at the time.
Quoting Jamal
As if I would remember. And also weird that you do.
Quoting Jamal
I'm responding to what I'm reading, you weird and unfriendly weirdo.
You mentioned “South Brooklyn, NYC”, openly implying that that’s where you were. For the past few years, the whole world has been able to find out roughly where the reclusive and elusive @Noble Dust probably lives. :scream:
Seriously this time, I’m done here.
Maybe don’t be a prick.
See above.
You fucked up, not me.
By the way, I never mentioned that as it's an outdated term that Gen X use.
Quoting Jamal
It is an odd thing to say rode and not ridden.
If you want pink ones, just blend strawberries up in the applesauce.
You can add orange to make it orange, or salmon. They both work well.
Salmon? Noooooooo!
Imagine if everyone on the planet but you had Alzheimer's? Constantly telling you people were trying to kill them and such. It would drive you insane.
Here’s an example:
It’s starting each sentence on its own line, in a nutshell.
It seems a little more “readable” to me, without taking up much more lines.
Short sentence get a punchy kind of emphasis, rather than getting lost in the sea of words.
I tried to determine what this format is called, but couldn’t find any names.
Any idea what it’s called?
Do you prefer the regular way, this way, or no preference?
Or maybe not as big of a positive difference than I’ve noticed?
Thoughts?
Well, I certainly don’t want to make it unreadable. Just the opposite! :nerd:
The people who post like that are not in those threads.
Others on the staff have told me they don’t mind it, so do with my opinion what you will :cool:
So… you don’t like it?? :lol:
Quoting Jamal
Any names you could share so I could look at this in action? Thanks!
Ok thanks. :pray: Not a huge deal, just a passing thought. I don’t remember this being discussed. I’ll look for any relevant threads to see if there’s any kind of consensus. :smile:
If I told you I’d be revealing that I hate their posts, so I’d rather not. BTW The ones I’m thinking of are not 100% consistent with it.
The thing I love about NYC most is that there is one of everything everywhere. It's like the whole city of Boston on each square block. But then, as you walk along you'll find yourself in a fancy neighborhood. You walk another block and you're on skid row. Another block and it's Little Italy. Another block and it's Finn Town, where every restaurant sells pickled herring and those Finnish pancakes @Noble Dust won't stop talking about. I read there are 10,000 restaurants in Manhattan. And they're not all concentrated in one place, they're everywhere.
And the women are beautiful.
:joke: tee hee hee! Fair enough. I wouldn’t do it in the Shoutbox. Not needed for short and conversational comments probably. (If needed at all, that is. Not trying to make posts into 19th century epic poetry lol. The Rime of the Ancient Windbag :blush: ).
Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.
The very deep did rot: O Christ!
That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs
Upon the slimy sea.
About, about, in reel and rout
The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green, and blue and white.
And some in dreams assurèd were
Of the Spirit that plagued us so;
Nine fathom deep he had followed us
From the land of mist and snow.
What you’ll notice is that each line is short, so that there is no wrapping; and that it’s poetry, where the length of the lines corresponds roughly with the rhythm and the lines come in groups of four. The style you’re talking about is nothing like this.
But as I say, you shouldn’t let the fact that I despise it more than I could ever express put you off using it if you like it. :grin:
Hmmm… yes. Good point. An 18th century treatise on taxation perhaps? :snicker:
Quoting Jamal
[hide]
[hide="Reveal"]HARPER'S INDEX
- Percentage by which Democrats are more likely than Republicans to trust the Wall Street Journal: 36
- To trust National Review: 49
- Percentage of Americans who think the media pays too much attention to guns: 36
- To Donald Trump's arrest and indictment: 49
- Portion of podcast listeners who expect the news they hear on podcasts to be mostly accurate : 9/10
- Who have tried to make a lifestyle change because of a podcast: 1/3
- Amount spent on the average U.S. date : $73
- Amount the average American spent on dates last year : $1,412
- Estimated amount the average Gen Z or millennial wedding guest will spend attending weddings this year: $1,200
- Portion of wedding guests who say they will take on credit card debt in order to attend them: 1/5
- Percentage increase last year in the average amount of credit card debt held by Gen Z adults : 40
- Percentage of Gen Z adults who say they often or always feel dissociated from their finances: 28
- Portion of parents of adult children who have used their emergency savings to support their kids: 1/2
- Portion of U.S. adults who have used "buy now, pay later" loans to purchase groceries: 1/5
- Percentage increase this year in cancellations of premium video-streaming services: 49
- Portion of Americans who say their biggest financial mistake last year was paying for subscriptions they never used: 1/3
- Rank of workers 75 or older among the fastest growing demographics in the US, workforce: 1
- Percentage of U.S. adults 50 or older who play video games at least once a month : 45
- Percentage who cite stress as a major reason for their gaming: 71
- Portion of U.S. adults who say they dislike or hate modern art: 1/5
- Who consider Michelangelo's David to be pornographic : 1/5
- Who say they could probably replicate the sculpture themselves : 1/10
- Who say they could probably paint Van Gogh's Self-Portrait with a Straw Hat: 1/4
- Portion of authors whose mental health improved after the publication of their debut book: 1/5
- Whose mental health declined: 1/2
- Percentage of U.S. employees who say remote work makes it easier to get away with rude behavior: 59
- Estimated number of hours per week that employees lose because of poor communication: 7
- Percentage of U.S. adults who support the use of facial recognition software to track employee attendance: 45
- To track how often workers take breaks: 25
- Percentage of Americans who currently own an electric vehicle: 4
- Of Americans who are seriously considering buying an electric vehicle: 12
- Who say they'd never buy one : 41
- Percentage of U.S. adults who identify as Christian : 65
- Of members of Congress who do : 90
- Portion of Americans who say a person must believe in God or a higher spiritual power to be moral: 1/3
- Portion of U.S. adults who believe that God reveals his plans in the form of prophecies: 1/3
- Who believe that modern-day prophets exist: 1/4
- Minimum number of people formally charged each year with witchcraft: 1,000
- Minimum annual number of fortune cookies produced worldwide: 3,000,000,000
- Percentage of fortune cookie producers who plan to use artificial intelligence to help write fortunes : 100
[/hide]They provide sources for all the data in the magazine.
Bwahahahaha! :lol:
Quoting T Clark
I pay $20 for my romantic partners. I don’t need nothin fancy for those 5 minutes of heaven.
(In before Hanny :snicker: )
Quoting T Clark
Dares? How about pranks? Let’s not forget novelty wigs!
Quoting T Clark
Those that wish Mic’s David were even more pornographic: 36%
(OMG… He is like _literally_ rock hard ) :smirk: :up:
Quoting T Clark
Wait what? There’s an option? When did this happen?
Quoting T Clark
Percentage of Congress members that Jesus would give a bare-butt whoopin to if He saw them: 97.8%
Quoting T Clark
No one predicted that. Not even the smartest cookie.
I take your meaning here as to suggest
Poetry now be the preferred form
We should respond to all that's put to us
I choose blank verse as the fairest means
That shall henceforth mould my arguments
And coat them in such a sheen I fancy
May bedazzle all those I debate.
Crikey, that’s very inspiring.
Really I’ll try to use the suggestion, just not in the Shoutbox (whoops) lol.
Anyway, life is a poem… or a long pointless story… or a dirty joke.
Plus, you can spell out curse words using the first letters!
Presumably Jesus, as part of the Trinity, has access to God's Omniscience Stream, as well as the New York Times, is aware of what all they are doing. So... what is He waiting for?
A sensible choice. The task of coming up with millions of fresh fortunes to fill 3 billion cookies is extraordinarily difficult -- especially if the fortunes are to avoid lapsing into truisms, like "it's not the heat, it's the humidity". I want my fortune cookie to contain a prophecy, even if it's kind of threatening: "If you keep eating here you'll be dead in 6 weeks."
This is a list of fortune cookie fortunes I posted about five years ago. I'd like to see Chat GPT come up with better ones.
[hide="Reveal"]
- You have wasted your life.
- Brush your teeth three times a day.
- I am not Chinese.
- You are going to die.
- You are a fool.
- Jump. Now.
- Never buy Chinese food from a restaurant with Caucasian waiters.
- Know yourself.
- You will make love to an overweight, 65-year-old civil engineer.
- You will never be happy.
- Drink eight glasses of water every day.
- I am closer to enlightenment than you are.
- Listen to your heart.
- Pay me back the money you owe me.
- I love you very much.
- Ralph Nader is responsible for the war in Iraq.
- Never vote for a Republican.
- Nobody loves you.
- The truth that can be spoken is not the eternal truth.
- You are not very attractive
- You have made a terrible mistake.
- Your lover has been unfaithful.
- You should be ashamed.
- Give up hope.
- Don’t do it.
- Your lucky number is 3.14159…..
- You are a bad person.
- Your personal hygiene is impeccable.
- You will never forgive yourself.
- You are not a good lover.
- Have your car’s brakes checked.
- Don’t believe her.
- No one likes your children
- You are a failure.
- You are not an effective public speaker.
- I will grant you just one wish.
- I am working for minimum wage.
- You will never be famous.
- Fortune cookies were invented in California.
- The best years of your life are over.
- The world will come to an end on April 12, 2026.
- You will never see him again.
- Don’t eat the cookie.
[/hide][hide="Reveal"]
- Your wit will charm even the grumpiest dragons.
- A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and a fortune cookie.
- The greatest treasures are found within the depths of your heart.
- An apple a day keeps the doctor away, but a cookie a day keeps sadness at bay.
- You will stumble upon a brilliant idea while looking for your other sock.
- Believe in yourself, for even the stars consult their maps.
- In the book of life, every chapter holds a lesson worth learning.
- You will soon meet someone who will make you laugh so hard, fortune cookies will shoot out of your nose.
- Your creativity knows no bounds, except for that one time you tried to juggle flaming torches.
- Patience is a virtue, especially when waiting for the microwave to finish.
- Embrace the storms, for they give birth to the most breathtaking rainbows.
- Beware of squirrels bearing gifts, for they have mastered the art of deception.
- Your hidden talents will be discovered when you least expect them—probably behind the couch.
- Success is not measured by the size of your bank account, but by the number of smiles you bring to others.
- The wind may blow, but you have the power to adjust your sails.
- Your ability to find humor in the most awkward situations will become your superpower.
- Never underestimate the power of a well-timed pun—it can break the ice faster than a karate chop.
- Happiness is not a destination; it's a state of mind where sprinkles are mandatory.
- Every sunset carries the promise of a new dawn; every fortune cookie holds the promise of a delightful message.
- You will soon discover that chocolate has the incredible ability to solve 99% of life's problems—the other 1% requires cookies.
- Your quick thinking will save the day, as long as the day isn't a crossword puzzle.
- The best way to predict the future is to create it with your own hands and a little bit of glitter.
- Love is the only force in the universe that doubles when shared and triples when dipped in chocolate.
- The road to success is paved with chocolate-covered almonds, so remember to bring snacks.
- Your impeccable fashion sense will inspire others to wear mismatched socks with pride.
- True wealth lies not in material possessions, but in the richness of the friendships you cultivate.
- Believe in miracles, but also believe in the power of your own actions to make them happen.
- You will soon invent a new dance move that will sweep the nation. It involves a lot of jazz hands.
- Your natural charisma will make even your houseplants develop a sudden urge to do the salsa.
- The greatest lessons are often disguised as the messiest of mistakes.
- The world becomes a better place when you choose kindness as your compass.
- Your fear of spiders will be cured when you realize they can moonwalk.
- An adventure awaits you just beyond the last horizon.
- When life gives you lemons, squeeze them over pancakes and add maple syrup.
- The key to happiness is not to search for it but to unlock the joy within yourself.
- Your smile can light up a room, so be careful not to cause a power outage.
- Don't be afraid to take the path less traveled. They have Wi-Fi now.
- The greatest success comes to those who are willing to make a fool of themselves in the pursuit of greatness.
- Let go of the past like a helium balloon and soar into a future filled with possibilities.
- Your positive attitude will open doors you didn't even know existed.
- Dance like nobody's watching, and if they are, make sure you give them a good show.
[/hide]Iambic tetrameter with an abab rhyme scheme, perhaps, or abba, or aabb.
Or per Poe, iambic octameter:
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore— [philosophy]
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more.”
Simultaneously letting go of the past and grabbing on to a [very large] helium balloon will whisk you into the sky where, at an extremely inconvenient moment, the balloon will pop, releasing one particular possibility: you being freely attracted to the much larger, hard, uncaring earth at an accelerating speed (vf = g * t).
S*P*L*A*T
I didn't write them, I only [s]transcribed[/s] cut and paste them. Pasted? That doesn't sound right.
I've tried this approach and it didn't end well.
[joke]Yes, we've seen quite a bit of the "make of fool of themselves" from you, but little of the greatness. I can only suggest you keep trying.[/joke]
[suspicion]He SAYS he is joking, but a joke is an excellent disguise for a truth that would be unpalatable as a raw statement like, "He is a fool."[/suspicion]
[false humility]So, yes, I have said foolish things.[/false humility] [borrowed erudition] In my defense, let me quote Marcus Tullius Cicero: There is nothing so absurd that some philosopher has not already said it. [/borrowed erudition]
Here I stand among a long line of foolish philosophers.
The forum certainly has it's share. I am proud to count myself among them.
Cheers. :up:
The enjoyment in writing blank verse lies
In the little puzzles it brings to our heads
We can say the most banal of banalities
In ways not often said, and so grant them
A colour and life they would otherwise
Not have had.
Looking at departures and arrivals
If this were a hospital
This is how you'd learn
Who was born and who had died.
Not bad. :up:
I hear there's a similar flickering screen at the gates of heaven telling us the destinations of the newly departed.