Reply to universeness I was referring to the book, which uses that kind of spelling, but I like the film. Not so much the sequel, which was a bit lame.
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 13:43#7522040 likes
:lol: Yep, both sides live and thrive in many a scot!
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 13:48#7522050 likes
Reply to Jamal
Trainspotting did nothing to help the massive drug problem in Scotland, in actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots involved in that horror. I think we need more people like Darren McGarvey and programs like Darren McGarvey's Scotland to highlight the drug horrors in Scotland. Have you saw any of his programs?
javi2541997October 28, 2022 at 13:49#7522060 likes
Trainspotting did nothing to help the massive drug problem in Scotland, in actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots involved in that horror.
I think that's ridiculous, and also mostly beside the point when judging the film.
Incidentally, it was my wife's favourite film even before I met her, but she was only dimly aware that it was based in Scotland, probably because she had watched a version dubbed into Russian, which I find hard to imagine.
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 13:51#7522080 likes
Reply to javi2541997
Wan man's meat is anither man's poison Javi! (one man's meat is another man's poison).
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 13:52#7522090 likes
You said it seriously, so it's clear that you believe it. Repeating it doesn't make it more convincing. I continue to think it's a ridiculous opinion, even though it seems to be shared by other pompous Scottishers. I mean, have you actually seen the movie? It's enough to scare anyone away from heroin.
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 13:57#7522110 likes
she had watched a version dubbed into Russian, which I find hard to imagine.
Looked up some quotes from trainspotting!
How about in a Ruskie accent:
A leetle beet baad, a leetle beet craazy comrade but hey, do not uz gearlis just lov zat!
Yeah, I do now that's not what dubbed means! But hey ho!
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 14:02#7522120 likes
You said it seriously, so it's clear that you believe it. Repeated it doesn't make it more convincing. I continue to think it's a ridiculous opinion, even though it seems to be shared by other pompous Scottishers. I mean, have you actually seen the movie? It's enough to scare anyone away from heroin.
Yes, saw it about 4 times, only once when I really wanted to. There is no pomposity in my claim. I am referring to some folks in the company watching the movie and their comments on it.
Such as, 'Yi wid need tae be as high as a kite tae run as fast as rent boy, that's so cool man,'
and many others I could quote uttered by those involved in the horrors of drug abuse.
A leetle beet baad, a leetle beet craazy comrade but hey, do not uz gearlis just lov zat!
You got a few things right there. Russian, like some other European languages, doesn't have the /?/ or /ð/ sounds, as in bit and that, respectively. Well done.
universenessOctober 28, 2022 at 14:03#7522140 likes
I am referring to some folks in the company watching the movie and their comments on it. Such as, 'Yi wid need tae be as high as a kite tae run as fast as rent boy, that's so cool man,'
It's a long way from this to "Trainspotting ... actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots", but this debate should be settled in the car park.
javi2541997October 28, 2022 at 14:15#7522160 likes
I searched in Google what does it means and it says: what is pleasant to one person may be unpleasant to another. Interesting phrase. It remembers me when I speak about tuna Tartare. It is pleasant for me but there a lot of people who actually hate it.
It's a long way from this to "Trainspotting ... actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots", but this debate should be settled in the car park.
Yeah, I only gave you one of the less emotive quotes, I have many more from people who like drugs or take drugs, but I didn't what to ruffle your hair too much inside your own ivory tower.
Anywho? Its Friday, time to prepare for a fun evening. Type to you again soon, if I survive the night!
We can type more about your carpark idea then!
Reply to T Clark Yes, I saw the irony. However, it is a little disconcerting when long time members depart without so much as a goodbye, fare thee well, or kiss my ass. Sudden departure syndrome is pretty common in voluntary groups. One stays as long as one's needs are being met. The stakes aren't high, the relationships aren't close (especially on-line), and any given group is not the last fish in the sea.
We are more exposed to each other on the forum than we would be in the check-in line at Whitney's Wholesale Whorehouse. So when people disappear, one wonders.
Reply to Bitter Crank Speaking of the Scottish, we would call it an "Irish Goodbye" when you would leave a party or get together by just leaving without telling anyone.
I always preferred that method. When I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go.
universenessOctober 29, 2022 at 08:33#7523760 likes
:grin: Are you offering me my own show on TPF? Can you click your heels together and make that happen? Would you?......... could you?
Ok, no more Wiz of Oz references, back to trainspotting.
I am sure I spotted Begbie on the train home last night but it was viewed through an alcofog so I cant swear to it. The guy looked the spit of Robert Carlyle!
Remember the chat here about how gangsters are portrayed in movies and how some garnish certain glamorised viewpoints about gangsters, despite the fact they mostly come to a nasty end. I see trainspotting as having a similar effect on druggies. Trainspotting 2 confirms all those bad boys survived their earlier dalliances with heroin, unlikely.
The film was as much about gangland culture as it was about druggies, would you agree?
Metaphysician UndercoverOctober 29, 2022 at 10:41#7523870 likes
Speaking of the Scottish, we would call it an "Irish Goodbye" when you would leave a party or get together by just leaving without telling anyone.
I always preferred that method. When I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go.
I think the Irish know how to get it done properly, just slip out the backdoor. It's much better that way, because big drawn out goodbyes really kill a party. All that hugging and kissing starts happening and suddenly there's no one left at the party
universenessOctober 29, 2022 at 12:07#7523980 likes
I think the Irish know how to get it done properly, just slip out the backdoor.
But such Irish ninjas are socially slagged to death afterwards, amongst their friends/associates, for being party lightweights!
Metaphysician UndercoverOctober 29, 2022 at 13:17#7524040 likes
Reply to universeness
Humiliation from them is acceptable for the sake of the higher purpose. They don't know that the real reason for slipping out the back door is to move on to the next level of partying, to mingle with high society, at the upper echelons of the private, invitation only, "after party".
universenessOctober 29, 2022 at 13:35#7524070 likes
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover
:razz: We obviously mix in very different circles. I don't know if that gives me the advantage or not.
What you call high society and private, invitation only, after party, etc, is often where, I imagine, the most horrible of people are to be found. I have only ever attended one or two such events in my life and those are the main conformations I have, along with what is shown on TV shows such as 'The real housewives of New York, Miami and goodness knows where else.' etc which I have had the misfortune of seeing a little of and TV celebrity shows like The Osbournes, The Kardashians etc, etc. :rage:
But such Irish ninjas are socially slagged to death afterwards, amongst their friends/associates, for being party lightweights!
You're not wrong here, but I choose the later abuse over the abuse of openly trying to leave early, or even worse, being forced to remain longer than I wanted.
By now, though, I've left early enough that they've grown use to it, so it's no longer fun for them to say anything.
You're not wrong here, but I choose the later abuse over the abuse of openly trying to leave early, or even worse, being forced to remain longer than I wanted.
Yes, there'll always be at least one Mrs Doyle to make you stay. Necessity is the mother of invention.
Yes, there'll always be at least one Mrs Doyle to make you stay. Necessity is the mother of invention.
I was not familiar with Mrs. Doyle, so I watched a bunch of clips of her on YouTube. Really unfunny stuff. She must be a caricature of an Irish aunt or something. Persistent, unkempt, frazzled. I didn't get it.
The re-release of Revolver gives us the opportunity to rehash the eternal question of which is the most important Beetles album.
Now it's obviously the one in which George finally gets to shine.
This remix took advantage of some technical trickery to break Paul and Ringo free of the single track in which they were imprisoned. Seems to me that this was done at the expense of too much compression, it all sounds a little flat. But I don't mind that as it also does allow a reconsideration of the rhythm section.
I was not familiar with Mrs. Doyle, so I watched a bunch of clips of her on YouTube. Really unfunny stuff. She must be a caricature of an Irish aunt or something. Persistent, unkempt, frazzled. I didn't get it.
She works for mad catholic priest's man! Wouldn't you be a little mad yourself?
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 08:25#7525820 likes
Reply to javi2541997
You will get a Portuguese who don't like a Spaniard who don't consider themselves Spaniard but considers themselves a Basque or a Catalonian who don't like Spaniards who don't like a Portuguese and none of them like a banno ..... People are prickly little creatures. Remember this brilliant example from Spike Lee's 'Do the right thing?'
You will get a Portuguese who don't like a Spaniard who don't consider themselves Spaniard but considers themselves a Basque or a Catalonian who don't like Spaniards who don't like a Portuguese
I don't get why the Portuguese appeared in the equation. It remembers me about the pseudo "Iberian" country that some nostalgic folks about the empire want to promote.
Basque and Catalonians consider themselves Spaniards... at least in a cultural matter. Politics is another stuff.
Trainspotting did nothing to help the massive drug problem in Scotland, in actually helped glamorise it
I think that's likely. Even here in Australia many older heroin users I've met have cited Trainspotting, William Burroughs novels and Velvet Underground songs as influences. But I suspect this only applies to those aged over 50. I saw the film when it came out, but can't remember much about it.
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 10:58#7525910 likes
Reply to javi2541997
I have holidayed in Portugal 4 times and during those times I hardly ever heard a Portuguese, say anything nice about Spain or Spainards. I have never met a Basque person but I have met one Catalonian woman who was very insulted, when it was suggested she was Spanish. A very small sample size Javi but I think these viewpoints are widely held and run deep. Catalonia did vote for independence from Spain after all, even though the Spanish declared the vote illegal, and ridiculously tried to jail all of the Catalonian leaders involved at the time.
Portuguese people talking about Spain reminded me of many Scots talking about the English. A lot of historical anger that I agree, we would all benefit from not carrying from generation to generation.
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 11:12#7525930 likes
Portuguese people talking about Spain reminded me of many Scots talking about the English. A lot of historical anger that I agree, we would all benefit from not carrying from generation to generation.
But I still don't understand it. They are an independent country. So what is the clue of spitting on us? They had their empire and we had ours. They weren't even a part of Spain.
I was in Portugal too, the city of Porto. I remember it as backwards country, not well developed and not really "European". Nobody cares about Portugal after all... Brazil is more important nowadays.
Spanish declared the vote illegal, and ridiculously tried to jail all of the Catalonian leaders involved at the time
They are now free. Pedro Sanchez freed them!
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 11:13#7525940 likes
Reply to Tom Storm
It's a disturbing film that you should add to your list as worth a look again, just to see how the 'movie' dramatic licence can be used too much for the 'shock and awe' or 'gangsta style titillation' scenes, just to make more money from the product.
I think the real life of many Scottish druggies is not necessarily on the fringes of the Scots crime world.
Many people being destroyed by drug addiction are not involved in criminality. A whole, very important group of equally suffering people and families are ignored by that assumption.
I remember one professional person relaying a story to the company I was in, that trainspotting reminded him of the time he was on cocaine, he hugged his newborn baby so tight and so much that him and his wife (also on cocaine) had to take the baby to hospital, and it was kept in for 9 days.
He talked about being haunted by the scene of the baby crawling over the ceiling, in trainspotting.
He joked that he needed a lot more cocaine after that experience.
Some people laughed. I didn't laugh.
I think the f***wit deserved to lose his family, as he eventually did.
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 11:17#7525960 likes
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 11:48#7525970 likes
Reply to universeness Interesting answers. I see most of them are positive and the other half only speak about historical facts
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 11:50#7525980 likes
Reply to javi2541997
Yeah, but did you notice some of the comments had been deleted? What do you read into that?
If you scroll further down, you will see similar questions on quora and a large variety of responses to the questions posed.
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 12:53#7526040 likes
If you scroll further down, you will see similar questions on quora and a large variety of responses to the questions posed.
You are right, there are similar questions but most of them have the same answers. Only a few of them complain about Spain (well, I have to be more specific. They complain about Castile)
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 12:56#7526060 likes
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 13:17#7526080 likes
Reply to javi2541997
Yeah, I noticed some Portuguese seem to have a problem with Castile and many seem to want Olivenza back. That was intriguing because many Scots still have a problem with a border town called 'Berwick on Tweed,' that they think belongs to Scotland. I have been there many times. Very interesting locals with somewhat of a palpable national identity issue.
You get bigots on both sides. Did you read the rather unbalanced typing of: Thing is, Spaniards today don’t give a damn about Portugal, Portuguese (some of them) however play the victim at all given time (no one whants to unite with them, unlike Portugeuse, Spanish are not obsessed with their neighbouts) and/or want Spain destroyed. I mean, right now Spaniards have way more reasons to want Portugal out of “their lives” than the other way around, Portugal is toxic as f***.
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 13:20#7526090 likes
Thing is, Spaniards today don’t give a damn about Portugal, Portuguese (some of them) however play the victim at all given time (no one whants to unite with them, unlike Portugeuse, Spanish are not obsessed with their neighbouts) and/or want Spain destroyed. I mean, right now Spaniards have way more reasons to want Portugal out of “their lives” than the other way around, Portugal is toxic as f***.
Completely agree with the folk who wrote that. Portugal is zero relevant for spaniah exterior affairs but for some reasons they want us to be destroyed or being split in dozens of parts, Catalonia getting the independence, etc...
While we don't care about them. When East Timor got his independence back in 1999 we didn't say to Portuguese folks: yeah [s]fuck[/s] you!. But probably they were happy when Spain lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines against USA army. Pathetic and such actions only can come from a childish nation.
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 13:34#7526130 likes
Reply to universeness Olivenza is in Extremadura and yes it is recognised as Spanish because:
[i]Olivenza is a town in southwestern Spain, near the Portuguese border, on a historically disputed section of the Portugal–Spain border. Its territory is administered by Spain as a municipality belonging to the province of Badajoz, and to the wider autonomous community of Extremadura.
The town of Olivença was under Portuguese sovereignty continuously between 1297 (Treaty of Alcañices) and 1801, when it was occupied by Spain during the War of the Oranges and ceded that year under the Treaty of Badajoz. Spain has since administered the territory (now split into two municipalities, Olivenza and also Táliga), whereas Portugal invokes the self-revocation of the Treaty of Badajoz, plus the Treaty of Vienna of 1815, to claim the return of the territory. In spite of the territorial dispute between Portugal and Spain, the issue has not been a sensitive matter in the relations between these two countries.
1977 – A Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between Spain and Portugal is signed, in which both countries ratified the integrity and inviolability of their respective territories, effectively assuming Olivenza is under Spanish control.
Olivenza and other neighbouring Spanish (La Codosera, Alburquerque and Badajoz) and Portuguese (Arronches, Campo Maior, Estremoz, Portalegre and Elvas) towns reached an agreement in 2008 to create a euroregion.[/i]
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 14:16#7526170 likes
Completely agree with the folk who wrote that. Portugal is zero relevant for spaniah exterior affairs but for some reasons they want us to be destroyed or being split in dozens of parts, Catalonia getting the independence, etc...
While we don't care about them. When East Timor got his independence back in 1999 we didn't say to Portuguese folks: yeah fuck you!. But probably they were happy when Spain lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines against USA army. Pathetic and such actions only can come from a childish nation.
I think its unwise to make generalised statements about any nationality, such as, 'for some reasons they want us to be destroyed,' 'we don't care about them,' or the English and the Germans are arrogant, the Scots are mean with their money, the irish are... the americans are .... etc. Unless you have met every one of them and asked them, it's just an unwise way of talking about such a group.
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 14:20#7526180 likes
I always like to read historical info, if its accurate, so thanks for that info. I could return the favour by giving you lots of info on why 'Berwick on tweed,' became disputed between Scotland and England.
I suppose such territoriality disputes are why so many are dying in Ukraine right now.
We need to stop doing stuff like that, permanently! Do you agree?
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 14:28#7526200 likes
Understandable. But apply such principle to yourself too because you were making negative/bad comments on Spain a few posts before...
My earlier comments were about the nefarious Spanish rich and powerful of the past and any Spaniard who still holds similar beliefs to those vile Spanish empire builders but please understand that the fact they were Spanish is the most unimportant word I included in my critique. You can replace the word Spaniard with any nationality you like and all you would have to do then, is change the dates and events involved. The principles would be almost identical. My opinion about past Spanish monarchies and empire building and the genocide they visited on the native peoples of South America remains a damming one as it is for all monarchies and empires.
javi2541997October 30, 2022 at 15:10#7526280 likes
Reply to universenessReply to universeness Do you think that "national behavior" can be managed like "individual behavior?" Individuals have morals, emotions, desires, thought, etc. What the collectivity of a nation has are "cold interests".
Expansion is usually in a nation's cold interest, if they can manage it. Expansion gives a nation access to more resources and markets. National interest may coincide with personal opportunity, so brave explorers (agents of imperialism, colonialism, expansion) fulfill the national interest. Not nice, of course.
It's not nice because the expanded-upon get the short, crappy end of the stick.
Have large groups of people ever behaved differently? Well... maybe when we were sparsely populated hunter-gatherers, we didn't have cold interests yet--but that was a very long time ago. Most nations occupy territory that has been the site of past expansion. Who did the Romans take the Iberian peninsula from? The Visigoths took it away from the Romans. Later the Moors took it away from the Visigoths. Then the successors to the Visigoths took it away from the Moors. Northward, various peoples of Europe were replaced in waves of westward migration. And so on, all over the globe.
If there is not so much expansionary behavior among nations today, it is because risk to the nation's cold interest balances out opportunity. Hitler almost succeeded, but was thoroughly beaten. Putin is making a serious play for Ukraine, and whether he will succeed or not is still in doubt. Even if Putin loses, Ukraine will have sustained tremendous losses. If Putin wins, Russia will have sustained significant losses (at least in the long run).
The lumber/agriculture invasion of the Amazon rain forest is an internal national expansion, predation upon native people and a vital rain forest.
We who have benefitted from past expansions, as harsh as they were, are loathe to even think of undoing the expansion. The USA has no intention of undoing its westward expansion (and in fact, can't undo it). The British can't undo the fact of their past empire. Neither can the Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Chinese, or anybody else -- anywhere.
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 20:06#7526640 likes
Do you think that "national behavior" can be managed like "individual behavior?"
There is no such thing as national behaviour, there are only accusations about particular humans behaving in the perceived stereotypical manners I suggested in my response to Javi.
What the collectivity of a nation has are "cold interests".
All human groups, including national ones work in their own interests but many such interests are in fact common, as we all know and appreciate, food, shelter, water, security, heath, prosperity, significance etc etc. We all need to see that truth and send out the same message everywhere. WE ALL HAVE THE SAME NEEDS. We need to unite and stop the nefarious few from having all the power and control over our planet's resources.
Expansion is usually in a nation's cold interest, if they can manage it. Expansion gives a nation access to more resources and markets. National interest may coincide with personal opportunity, so brave explorers (agents of imperialism, colonialism, expansion) fulfill the national interest. Not nice, of course.
You are referring to the way things were and possibly still the way things still are between many countries BUT thats perhaps part of the reason why the human race is not doing as well as they could be doing. Time for significant change, or do you think we should just keep repeating the same old dumb mistakes and wars based on the same old BS fears?
Have large groups of people ever behaved differently? Well... maybe when we were sparsely populated hunter-gatherers, we didn't have cold interests yet--but that was a very long time ago
Your question should not be about 'have' but it should be about 'can.' Do you really think that history has the best examples of what a human civilisation can be or do you think we could do better?
Who did the Romans take the Iberian peninsula from? The Visigoths took it away from the Romans. Later the Moors took it away from the Visigoths. Then the successors to the Visigoths took it away from the Moors. Northward, various peoples of Europe were replaced in waves of westward migration. And so on, all over the globe.
So, do you think we can behave better than this in the future? Is what's happening in Ukraine, and in so many other places not utterly revolting to you?
We who have benefitted from past expansions, as harsh as they were, are loathe to even think of undoing the expansion. The USA has no intention of undoing its westward expansion (and in fact, can't undo it). The British can't undo the fact of their past empire. Neither can the Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Chinese, or anybody else -- anywhere.
Total BS imo. WE ARE ALL the USA and the British and the Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Chinese and anybody else. Take your bit of the responsibility! Don't try to pass yourself off as not a member of any of the nationalities you mention. Just ensure YOU become as much a part of the solution as you can and don't ever be part of the problem. THEN our joined voices and actions may change the way our world is right now. If we all hate the way things are so much then it's up to us to change it. There is NO QUESTION about who is responsible for the way things are, the answer is YOU, ME, all of us.
universenessOctober 30, 2022 at 20:15#7526660 likes
Reply to Jamal
I am just trying to show that anyone can be as cranky as the bitterest of cranks.
We can't keep complaining about a world WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR!
We can't blame the dinosaurs or fictitious gods or the animals or the insects.
I just get a little frustrated sometimes that our species seems still so backwards and unable to grow up and take responsibility for its own history!
I am already convinced our species needs to develop better ways. How about you?
I wasn't arguing in favor of national interests leading to the kind of history we have (going back to Uruk the first city-state). I was arguing in favor of acknowledging, not admiring, 'realpolitik'. We can't improve ourselves as individuals until we recognize our faults.
do you think we can behave better than this in the future? Is what's happening in Ukraine, and in so many other places not utterly revolting to you?
Whether we can be better is THE perennial question, and as far as I know, there is no overwhelming evidence that we can. We WISH we were better than we are, but the problem is in better performance. We are a neurotic species, so I'm not holding my breath waiting.
We all have the same needs, but we don't all have the same wishes or power to fulfill them.
Let's deal with the basic needs of all of us first and then deal with any differences that cause us to kill each other due to individual 'wishes' and our individual power to fulfil such.
Whether we can be better is THE perennial question, and as far as I know, there is no overwhelming evidence that we can. We WISH we were better than we are, but the problem is in better performance. We are a neurotic species, so I'm not holding my breath waiting.
WE CAN! The proof is that we have already demonstrated that we can, by the improvements we have already made, since the days of the ancients. The people of Uruk had no welfare state or bill of human rights! The human race has made incredible advances, within a very small timeframe, if you consider the cosmic calendar scale.
I don't get why the Portuguese appeared in the equation.
I don't get why the Portuguese even exist on the planet. They are not Spanish, nor are they French. Their existence seems to be rooted in a desire for independence. Then you go to Brazil and find millions of people who want to speak Portuguese. What's that all about?
I don't get why the Portuguese even exist on the planet. They are not Spanish, nor are they French. Their existence seems to be rooted in a desire for independence.
Why should they be Spanish or French? Because their country is near those countries? At best, this is a stupendously silly comment.
Reply to universeness I mentioned Uruk because I had read something about them recently. I was aware of Jericho's more ancient history. Thanks for the video -- I do tend to like that sort of thing.
And you believe that such makes a person more American than Australian?
You misread me. "Plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, etc." were applied to states, not individuals. That is what makes the United States different than Australia in terms of "national interest". India, Iran, Italy, Ireland, Indonesia, etc. all have distinct interests because of their particular histories. Of course, individuals have distinct histories too, which contributes to our uniqueness, but treaties, international debt, and so on probably have little effect on individual personality.
All that said, a given delusional, neurotic or psychotic leader can make very crazy politics for everyone.
WE CAN! The proof is that we have already demonstrated that we can, by the improvements we have already made, since the days of the ancients. The people of Uruk had no welfare state or bill of human rights! The human race has made incredible advances, within a very small timeframe, if you consider the cosmic calendar scale.
Some chattering class anthropologist (not sure, might have been Stephen Pinker) wrote a book (can't remember--might have been The Better Angels of our Nature) about how humans have achieved a more civil, peaceful society compared to our hunter-gatherer stone-wielding ancestors. The key advancement that made this possible was a strong state. A strong state can enforce more peaceful, civil behavior.
When and where state authority is diminished, we see a rapid up-tick in bad behavior.
It isn't the WE got better, but our collective commitment to civil behavior (via a civil society) got better. I'm grateful for that. I like to go out at night with confidence that thugs aren't liking behind every tree.
(By the way, "the better angels of our nature" is from Abraham Lincoln. On one shoulder sits an angel, on the other sits a devil, each one trying to guide our behavior. It's a nice representation of our conflicting urges.)
Had homemade beef stew tonight. Different colored bell peppers, onions, different colored small potatoes, carrots, seasoning, but the key was the chopped up Serrano peppers, adding the right amount of heat.
It appears you correctly interpreted what was meant, even affording me the best. How perceptive of you. Most people completely misunderstand me, assigning the worst.
I don't get why the Portuguese even exist on the planet. They are not Spanish, nor are they French. Their existence seems to be rooted in a desire for independence
Portugal was born due to an act of "independence" from Castile. But they only got a small part of the Iberian peninsula because Galicia is Spanish. When Ferdinand and Isabella united all the kingdoms of Spain in only one they proposed the same issue to Portuguese folks but they said "no" because they are very proud of themselves. Small country with proud citizens.
You misread me. "Plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, etc." were applied to states, not individuals. That is what makes the United States different than Australia in terms of "national interest". India, Iran, Italy, Ireland, Indonesia, etc. all have distinct interests because of their particular histories. Of course, individuals have distinct histories too, which contributes to our uniqueness, but treaties, international debt, and so on probably have little effect on individual personality.
I don't see the distinctions you are making, and I don't concur with the reasons you are citing.
A Kentuckian is quite a different 'nationality' that a New Yorker. They are both American but there are traditional, cultural differences between the groups. Not at the level of individuals, these cultural differences are very generalised/subjective/applied with too wide a brush. Are Americans all big boastful narcissists with no class or taste? Do all Australians wear hats with corks hanging from them, shorts, and have names like Bruce and Sheila and do they all carry boomerangs?
I see little difference in the national interests of a country compared to the interests of the ancient city states. Cultural/Religious differences have always been used as an excuse that the nefarious use to incite their soldiers to slaughter another people. 'We need to kill them and take their lands because we are civilised and chosen by god and they are savages and need to be civilised by us.' It was BS then and its BS now.
All that said, a given delusional, neurotic or psychotic leader can make very crazy politics for everyone.
We have so much evidence of this, past and present, so, surely priority number 1 is that we must all state that we will all work to prevent a politician, leader being able to get into or maintain power after they have demonstrated they are delusional, neurotic, psychotic, liars etc. In the UK, we seem to be able to get rid of such bad leaders quite quickly. More quickly than we ever have been able to before. In places like Russia, they can still become an autocratic totalitarian, and cause major wars. The Russian people are mainly responsible for allowing this to happen. The Russian people have the same needs as we do, no matter what plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, their 'country/nation/leaders' dance around with. If all peoples worked towards global unison, then it wouldn't really matter which resources were abundant/scarce in which 'country.' To each according to their need, from each according to their ability. Control over the means of production, distribution and exchange should be as automated as possible and should be owned by and exist for the benefit of all and not exclusively for the (via the money trick) maintenance and continued plutocracy of a nefarious few.
The Better Angels of our Nature) about how humans have achieved a more civil, peaceful society compared to our hunter-gatherer stone-wielding ancestors. The key advancement that made this possible was a strong state. A strong state can enforce more peaceful, civil behavior.
When and where state authority is diminished, we see a rapid up-tick in bad behavior.
It isn't the WE got better, but our collective commitment to civil behavior (via a civil society) got better. I'm grateful for that. I like to go out at night with confidence that thugs aren't liking behind every tree.
I broadly agree but I don't agree that the majority of the members of the human race are ignorant children who have to be forced into behaving like civilised cooperative, unselfish, creatures.
If you don't suffer from mental illness, then you normally can be reasoned with. WE CAN create a decent global human civilisation through a democratic socialist/humanist based politics where the authority is of, for and by the people and employs some kind of resource based global economy. That's what I think will massively improve the lives of the current mass of poor, dissatisfied humanity that exists on this planet. I think there are billions of people who continue to try to improve the way things are done and the way people are treated. I am with them, and I think, in truth. you are to, as I suspect all reasonable thinkers on TPF would also choose to be.
The last hundred years of American culture in three photographs.
I did some research and found that III begot the illegitimate Coleman Williams. In case you want to see what the next generation of American country music looks like: https://tkoco.com/portfolio/coleman-williams-iv-and-the-strange-band/ It's a bit of a throwback with the rhinestones and long sideburns.
Seeing the "jr" in Hank's name, I did some light digging. I didn't know there were two Hank Williamses.
I certainly wasn't a country music fan when I was younger, but I remember hearing "Why don't you love me" in "The Last Picture Show." I really loved it. When I was a junior in college, my roommate Ari, a Jewish kid from Boston, somehow got a hold of HW's greatest hits. He used to play it when my friend Gene, a black kid from New Jersey, came over to drive him out of the room. They didn't like each other. I got to like HW even better.
He died the Year I was born. Sometimes I hear one of his songs and am amazed at how good he was.
Hank Williams, Jr. was popular when I was in college. His songs haven't really stood the test of time:
"If the South Woulda Won, We Woulda had it Made"
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd make my Supreme Court down in Texas
And we wouldn't have no killers getting off free
If they were proven guilty, then they would swing quickly
Instead of writing books and smiling on TV
We'd all learn Cajun cooking in Louisiana
And I'd put that capital back in Alabama
We'd put Florida on the right track, 'cause we'd take Miami back
And throw all them pushers in the slammer
Oh, if the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
The day young Skynyrd died, we'd show our southern pride
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
"Play a little dixieland boys, ah yes"
I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee
And all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills
The national treasury would be in Tupelo, Mississippi
And I'd put Hank Williams picture on 100 dollar bills
I'd have all the cars made in the Carolinas
And I'd ban all the ones made in China
I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
And talk with that Southern accent that drives men wild
I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia
'Cause they sure can make 'em sound so fine
I'm going up on Wolverton Mountain and see ole Clifton Clowers
And have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine
Hey, if the South woulda won, we'd a had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
When Patsy Cline passed away, that would be our national holiday
If the South woulda won, we'd a had it made, olay he hee hee
I said if the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
Might even be better off
My favorite old time country singer was Patsy Cline.
Her music never struck me as particularly country. More pop music like Frank Sinatra or Ella Fitzgerald. Now Hank Williams, he was as country as a whittled stick.
You were whittling. If you were a country boy, you would have been whittlin'.
javi2541997October 31, 2022 at 19:11#7528980 likes
I was invited to a symposium called:A girl, a monkey and a horse. Pipi, the great female character in my local library. We were to talk of how to get kids (between 7 and 11 years old) involved in poetry, literature, arts, etc...
Well, they used (and I am aware that today is spooky time) a disgusting paint of Pipi. First I laughed, now I am horrified. I want to share the screenshot and see your thoughts on the "infatile cartoon" of Pipi.
Reply to javi2541997 I'd recognize Pippi Longstocking anywhere. I'm not sure why you're so offended.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking
javi2541997October 31, 2022 at 19:33#7529010 likes
Reply to Hanover Yes, I would recognize Pippi anywhere too but the paint of my local library represents a lascivious Pippi, not a regular infantile Pippi of the books.
Look the face of the cartoon... if I am not on guard she would kill me or touch me without my permission
universenessNovember 03, 2022 at 16:30#7535450 likes
Reply to Baden
Everyone they tested in 350BC was a socialist. Everyone they tested today was called Donald Trump or were a member/supporter of the American Republican party.
javi2541997November 03, 2022 at 16:49#7535530 likes
Just noticed I've gone over 10,000 posts. You're very welcome.
:100: Good digit! It reflects how active you are around here!
Noble DustNovember 03, 2022 at 21:10#7536750 likes
I just had possibly the second worst slice of pizza of my life. It was a veggie slice that fell apart; I had to wrap it up like a burrito. Complete savagery. For my loyal fans wondering what number one was, it's called a rigatoni slice.
I bit into a piece of pizza and cracked my tooth in half. THAT was the worst and most expensive pizza slice ever.
Metaphysician UndercoverNovember 04, 2022 at 11:40#7538490 likes
Reply to Hanover
Fucking roasted dough! I've cracked three or four teeth in my lifetime, each and every one being the result of chewing roasted dough. Everyone's a baker, whether or not they know how to knead. The pie is a skill best left to the experts.
Noble DustNovember 04, 2022 at 16:31#7539200 likes
Medium Dead - Stoner rock
The Dythyramblers - Drunken blue grass
Pat Mastelotto Plays An Ostinato - A cover band that plays songs on which Pat played drums
Medium Dead - Stoner rock
The Dythyramblers - Drunken blue grass
Pat Mastelotto Plays An Ostinato - A cover band that plays songs on which Pat played drums
Yours are more esoteric than mine. Mine are all for pop/rock or country groups. Some more:
Dead Beetles ( I guess that's a George Harrison/John Lennon cover band. Soon they can cover the rest.)
Donald and the Trumps
Chump Change
Whose Cow
The Plantains (Perhaps a Caribbean rhythm and blues group.)
Seven Schmucks
The Smirks
The Sneers
Noble DustNovember 04, 2022 at 18:29#7539510 likes
Bad things happen due collective bad moods, collective fears, and superstitions. Bad things do not happen to bad people. Things happen to bad/good people.
Maybe I'll turn her into a man with my facial modification app. The possible multiple levels of embedded AI should make us wonder even more what is real.
As I've said many times before, I am not a theist - I don't have any specific religious beliefs. But I think there is value in a religious way of seeing things, perhaps not for me but for some people. I've been thinking about starting a thread with the goal of explaining that position. Not sure if I will or not.
universenessNovember 05, 2022 at 23:20#7542420 likes
Reply to T Clark
I just thought you might find Sam's viewpoint interesting in that particular offering.
The thread you suggest sounds interesting but would no doubt flame both sides.
I accept you are not a theist. I am defensive of the non-preaching theist, myself, but I agree with Mr Harris that theism does not warrant any special dispensation or respect.
The thread you suggest sounds interesting but would no doubt flame both sides.
Perhaps, but I'd be willing to take a chance if I thought it would help me get my head together on the subject. That's generally why I start discussions.
Perhaps, but I'd be willing to take a chance if I thought it would help me get my head together on the subject. That's generally why I start discussions.
I think you should. I would contribute, which is saying a lot.
But I think there is value in a religious way of seeing things, perhaps not for me but for some people. I've been thinking about starting a thread with the goal of explaining that position. Not sure if I will or not.
I think that would be an interesting thread, I'd like to see this too.
Perhaps, but I'd be willing to take a chance if I thought it would help me get my head together on the subject. That's generally why I start discussions.
— T Clark
I think you should. I would contribute, which is saying a lot.
I think that would be an interesting thread, I'd like to see this too.
I've tried to get one started in my mind a couple of times, but it always peters out. I'm hoping making a public declaration will embarrass me into finally doing it.
Reply to T Clark My foundational theism has been crumbling for decades, but it seems to be an effective organizing system for billions of people, as it has been for me. @Universeness does not think it worth "any special dispensation or respect". I think theism deserves respect--not because a god allegedly created the cosmos and its contents--but because billions of people find it useful. How? and Why?
You say your thoughts on theism peter out. Mr. Clark: you should know that whatever you say about religion will spark a discussion; the partisans will swarm out of the woodwork to support and/or denounce one another's views, universeness among them.
So get your (a?)theistic thoughts in order and thread the needle.
My foundational theism has been crumbling for decades, but it seems to be an effective organizing system for billions of people, as it has been for me. Universeness does not think it worth "any special dispensation or respect". I think theism deserves respect--not because a god allegedly created the cosmos and its contents--but because billions of people find it useful.
I like this. [s]Perhaps[/s] I'll steal it and use it in the OP of my "Why religion am good" thread. Strike that - I am going to use it in my OP. Objections?
you should know that whatever you say about religion will spark a discussion; the partisans will swarm out of the woodwork to support and/or denounce one another's views, universeness among them.
I like to think I start threads, when I do, to clarify my own thinking. I'm not interested in a brawl or a free-for-all. That's why I try to be very specific in my opening posts about what is and is not included in the discussion.
universenessNovember 06, 2022 at 19:11#7544430 likes
Reply to Bitter Crank
:grin: You're like one of the agitators they churn out to give preambles on the big build up to the 'Thrilla in Manilla' or 'the rumble in the jungle.' Do you see this image sometimes when you look in the mirror darkly? :joke:
Having said that, You're right! I will try to evidentially support my 'Quoting universeness
I agree with Mr Harris that theism does not warrant any special dispensation or respect.
position.
Btw: Billions of people believe in the evolution of species, do theists give that any special dispensation or respect?
universenessNovember 06, 2022 at 19:21#7544460 likes
A scene from 'the third man.' I think the message is 'beware of who is hiding in the shadows.' :scream:
They will use religion, science and even YOU! To achieve their goals.
You respect its use in war, oppression, and other nasty stuff?
If government is to anarchy as theism is to atheism, then if the solution to theistic evil is atheism, then the solution to governmental evil is anarchy.
That is, if dirty bathwater requires the the throwing out the baby, let us be consistent and eliminate all human organizations that have resulted in harm.
Btw: Billions of people believe in the evolution of species, do theists give that any special dispensation or respect?
To claim theists reject evolution assumes "theism" is a specific belief system with a universally held theology. It's not. If it were, we wouldn't have countless religions claiming to be theistic. That is, theism is a category within which many religions fall.
So, if you wish to explain why you disagree with Oneness Pentecostalism, for example, you may offer some good reasons, but you'd have no reason to think those would apply to Episcopalians or to Orthodox Judaism (another Abrahamic religion).
You also assume that each of these religions rely on the same liturgy in forming their beliefs, and so what follows are incorrect interpretations of the theology, arguing against positions not held by anyone.
Instead, the arguments never go beyond a reading of the first few chapters of Genesis, as if the volumes and tens of thousands of pages of interpretation that occured over thousands of years that followed are not actually what the religion is.
Instead, what is argued is "theism is stupid because it holds that snakes talk people into eating apples."
Btw: Billions of people believe in the evolution of species, do theists give that any special dispensation or respect?
There is no fundamental reason that I know of for theists denying evolution. They might deny it -- and woe unto them if they do. Clearly god has options about how to carry out creation. On the scale of a 13+ billion year old universe, the word [theism] has barely been spoken.
The Gospel According to the Chad Mitchell Trio (1965) Rhymes for the Irreverent
God made the world in six days flat
On the seventh He said, "I'll rest"
So He let the thing into orbit swing
To give it a dry run test
A billion years went by
Then He took a look at the whirling blob
His spirits fell as He shrugged
"Ah well, it was only a six-day job"
You respect its use in war, oppression, and other nasty stuff?
War, oppression, and a lot of other nasty stuff goes on in the world. Theism, Deism, Atheism, and every other religious 'ism' will be pressed into service.
As Kant says, "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind."
You respect its use in war, oppression, and other nasty stuff?
— praxis
If government is to anarchy as theism is to atheism, then if the solution to theistic evil is atheism, then the solution to governmental evil is anarchy.
That is, if dirty bathwater requires the throwing out of the baby, let us be consistent and eliminate all human organizations that have resulted in harm.
I can respect the baby (spirituality) but not the bathwater (religion). Analogically, I can respect government, like a functioning democracy, but not tribalism.
I try to be very specific in my opening posts about what is and is not included in the discussion.
Your posts are not "provocations". You avoid inflammatory words; you don't call religious people imbeciles, for instance. Even if they hold stupid ideas (and yes, there are stupid ideas), people don't like their views being labeled that way. They tend to react strongly. It can be a real challenge to keep one's fingers from autonomously hitting the s-t-u-p-I-d I-m-b-e-c-i-l-e keys.
Your posts are concise and clear. The fewer murky sentences, the less garbage they attract.
You follow the good advice of freshman comp teachers: avoid clichés, glittering generalities, weasel words, and jargon. You put the hay down where serious goats can get at it.
Enough already with the positive, unconditional regard. You'll get all puffed up.
Ha no sorry. I’m all smug because it looks likely to be published but I don’t want to dox myself when it comes out so I’m being vague lol. It’s a sub field journal and a newish one, don’t mind me I’ll just humblebrag in the corner
universenessNovember 07, 2022 at 10:58#7546730 likes
Reply to Hanover
I am quite willing to focus on an exclusively theistic/theosophist/god(s)/supernatural against a materialist/scientific view of the universe if you like. The fact there are many religions is just evidence that they can't all be correct, but they could (and imo ARE) all be incorrect. If someone thinks evolution is incorrect, then it seems that it is perfectly ok to disrespect it and assign it no credence or special dispensation, even though it is based on massive scientific evidence backed by global academic expertise. The evidence for theism or any religion you care to name is 0. Yet there is a social/historical malevolent demand that it MUST BE respected and given special dispensation? Even when it is based only on exaggerated word of mouth renditions of claimed witness recollection, or ancient written texts, with very tenuous links with historical facts, which themselves are unreliable, as they were written by victors and their supportive biographers. Were any of the Roman historical writers independents, for example? Can you really trust the writings of captured characters that turned traitor such as Josephus (Flavius!)? Why should the theosophistic story of Gilgamesh not be given the same respect and special dispensation as the Christians demand the gospels merit or should those who think that the story of the mighty Thor is a nonsense fable be allowed to say the exact same to a Christian or Muslim about Christian or Islamic or any other theistic/religious story without being physically threatened in response.
universenessNovember 07, 2022 at 11:17#7546770 likes
There is no fundamental reason that I know of for theists denying evolution.
I am happy to confirm that many theists and even some Christians and Muslims don't deny evolution and I am happy to admit that some scientists are religious. I also want to highlight the fact that many theists/religious people do not accept evolution and do not assign it any special dispensation or respect, despite the weight of evidence and academic rigor behind it. Yet these same people and their defenders such as @TClark expect nonbelievers to respect their viewpoints and remain loathe to challenge them in the same 'gloves off' manner that they apply to atheistic viewpoints.
Reply to universeness The correlation between theism and evolution denying/questioning is minimal, with some atheists even denying/questioning evolution. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2017/sep/05/questioning-evolution-is-neither-science-denial-nor-the-preserve-of-creationists.
The point being, if you want to debate the theists, you'll need to focus on particular theistic belief systems and not just the weakest forms of it. Otherwise, your debate will just be over the validity of evolution, a position no one here really meaningfully questions.
So far, from this limited discussion, you'd think theism is reducable to a few chapters of literally interpreted Genesis.
I don't understand why evolution wouldn't offer as much an explanation for the development of mental powers as it does for physical development. In even the simplest of animals, a significant amount of the physical attributes exist to provide mental input into the organism. That is, you can't reasonably argue that a fish's eye is explainable by evolution yet the consciousness of the image received through the eye is not. Such would imply a pre-existing consciousness waiting for the physical body to catch up and provide some input.
The point being, if you want to debate the theists, you'll need to focus on particular theistic belief systems and not just the weakest forms of it. Otherwise, your debate will just be over the validity of evolution, a position no one here really meaningfully questions.
So far, from this limited discussion, you'd think theism is reducable to a few chapters of literally interpreted Genesis.
I will save methods of 'debating the theists,' and employ them based on the threads on offer.
Genisis is merely one of hundreds perhaps thousands of creation myths. Genesis holds no primacy for me.
I will save methods of 'debating the theists,' and employ them based on the threads on offer.
Genisis is merely one of hundreds perhaps thousands of creation myths. Genesis holds no primacy for me.
Strikes me as a non-starter. The theistic position from my perspective isn't one demanding proof, but only that it's compatible with rationality and modern scientific notions. If your position is that atheism and theism are both reasonable options, then we agree. If your position is that theism is not reasonable, then that would be an affirmative statement demanding proof.
But, to the extent you are only saying that theism is not provable, I agree. Such is faith.
This is either a so-far unnamed logical fallacy or a brilliant rhetorical strategy. Or both.
universenessNovember 07, 2022 at 16:32#7547380 likes
Reply to Hanover
I would personally declare myself as of the strong atheist persuasion in that I am 99.9% convinced that no god/universal mind/supernatural phenomena exists. But I accept that position is personal opinion, and I cannot prove the nonexistence of god/a universal mind/supernatural phenomena.
The origins of both the mind and life are both the subjects of serious scientific study. "Not yet fully understood" is not the same as mysterious or unknowable.
Yup, that's a pretty outstanding example. I somehow intuit that this particular logical fallacy / rhetorical strategy has morphed into what has nowadays become the staple "talk to the hand" argument among certain circles. But, yea, this pales by comparison to your current favorite.
This is an interesting way of putting it, although I'm not sure whether or not it matches the most commonly understood meaning of "faith."
It's faith to the extent I don't question it despite it lacking the sort of proof we typically require for most other things we accept as true. On the other hand, if I held a belief that I would typically reject based upon it being logically untenable or it being shown by the evidence to be untrue, then I do think I would be hard pressed to explain how I'm not guilty of special pleading.
However, nothing here suggests I should reject a belief that has positive consequences and that otherwise is unknowable.
Consider the following article on William James:
"Because we do not naturally experience the supernatural, James, the radical empiricist, thinks of faith in God as falling short of knowledge. Yet such faith is pragmatically meaningful to many people, and it is reasonable to wonder whether, how, and to what extent it can be justified. For James, the logical philosopher trained in science, both logic and science have limits beyond which we can legitimately seek the sentiment of rationality. His notorious “Will to Believe” essay is designed to be a defense of religious faith in the absence of conclusive logical argumentation or scientific evidence. It focuses on what he calls a “genuine option,” which is a choice between two hypotheses, which the believer can regard as “living” (personally meaningful), “forced” (mutually exclusive), and “momentous” (involving potentially important consequences). Whether an option is “genuine” is thus relative to the perspective of a particular believer. James acknowledges that in our scientific age, there is something dubious about the voluntaristic view that, in some circumstances, we can legitimately choose to believe in the absence of any objective justification. However, he claims we naturally do so all the time, our moral and political ideas being obvious examples. When you believe that your mother loves you or in the sincerity of your best friend, you have no conclusively objective evidence. In addition, you will never be able to secure such evidence. Yet it often seems unreasonable to refuse to commit to believing such matters; if we did so, the pragmatic consequences would be a more impoverished social life. Indeed, in some cases, believing and acting on that belief can help increase the chances of the belief being true. Now let us apply this argument to religious belief. What does religion in general propose for our belief? The two-pronged answer is that ultimate reality is most valuable and that we are better off if we believe that. Committing to that two-pronged belief is meaningful, as is the refusal to do so. At any given moment, I must either make that two-pronged commitment or not; and how I experience this life, as well as prospects for a possible after-life, may be at stake. Whether one makes that commitment or not, pragmatic consequences can be involved. Nor should we imagine that we could avoid having to make a choice, as the commitment not to commit is itself a commitment (Will, pp. 1-4, 7-9, 11-14, 22-30; see also Problems, pp. 221-224)."
https://iep.utm.edu/james-o/#SH3a
universenessNovember 07, 2022 at 20:05#7548130 likes
When you believe that your mother loves you or in the sincerity of your best friend, you have no conclusively objective evidence.
In what way is this any evidence that god exists? Sometimes your mother does not love you and sometimes she does, no god required.
You choose to make Pascals wager.
I simply demand that if god or the supernatural exists then show up and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. You say you can be satisfied with mere faith without any evidence.
I don't see how that is different from having faith that orcs live under your house or the mighty Thor is real.
When you believe that your mother loves you or in the sincerity of your best friend, you have no conclusively objective evidence.
— Hanover
In what way is this any evidence that god exists? Sometimes your mother does not love you and sometimes they do, no god required.
Whenever I hear this kind of argument I generally respond that we can demonstrate the existence of one's mother and best friend and we can also identify behavior congruent with expressions of love or care. When behavior is abusive, we might question that love or care. We may not ever have certainty about others, but we can have reasonable confidence. God doesn't even get there.
As an atheist, I don't think there is much point arguing with people who hold to a sophisticated theology. They generally don't pose the kind of problem the unsophisticated fundamentalists do. The difference between me and a believer is not down to IQ, it's socialization and my lack of the sensus divinitatis. Incidentally, the better critics of Christianity are Christians, which is why I tend to enjoy Bishop John Shelby Spong and David Bentley Hart rather than Dawkins et al.
Incidentally, the better critics of Christianity are Christians, which is why I tend to enjoy Bishop John Shelby Spong and David Bentley Hart rather than Dawkins et al.
How about Professor Bart Ehrman or Doctor Robert Price (despite the fact he is a political nitwit republican)? Price was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Montclair, New Jersey and Ehrman became a born again evanhellical. Both now atheists. There are many other academics who are highly qualified in theology who are now atheist based on the contradictions they found as they delved deeper and deeper into the religious doctrines they studied.
Reply to universeness I prefer believers as critics rather than atheist converts. But I like Ehrman - he is fairly respectful of Christians. The reason I prefer believers is their critiques generally have more impact on other believers, who might hear 'atheism' and dismiss whatever is said. This is the reality, whether it is appropriate or not.
Contradictions? The issue here for me is that the Bible is allegory. Usually only the fundies see the Bible as some kid of positivist text - which is a more recent phenomenon. I grew up in the Baptist tradition in the 1970's. I was taught that the Bible stories were metaphors, not factual. And this is where sophisticated theological models comes in. None of which I can be arsed exploring right now. :wink:
You say you can be satisfied with mere faith without any evidence.
I don't see how that is different from having faith that orcs live under your house or the mighty Thor is real.
This is addressed in the William James article I attached.
A pragmatically based will to believe does not equate to a will to make believe.
There are many other academics who are highly qualified in theology who are now atheist based on the contradictions they found as they delved deeper and deeper into the religious doctrines they studied.
One way to atheism is through study; religions contain contradictions and these may prove fatal to the faith of the scholar. Another way to atheism is erosion of the social connections to the community of faith. In this case, faith is buttressed by communal sharing and a loss of that communal sharing may lead to a loss of faith. Young people leaving home, going to college, and being immersed in a new community, for instance, may depart from their faith.
A third route to loss-of-faith is the abrasion that arises from the gap between the professions of the official religion and secular realities. If "God's eye is on the sparrow", ["Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?" (Matthew 6:26)] how is that humans so often suffer grievously from harm they did not cause themselves? [Of course, we suffer a lot by our own stupidity. That's an altogether different problem]
There are more paths away from belief, but the point is, it isn't always deficient doctrine.
Reply to universeness Never mind Genesis; the gospels contain plenty of stories that are problematic, starting with the immaculate conception of Mary's mother, Elizabeth; Mary's highly unorthodox impregnation, and so on down the line. Never mind miracles; how about original sin? Original Sin is much more doctrinal than it is biblical. Adam and Eve ate the apple, were expelled from Eden, and that's that, as far as the Old Testament is concerned. Their transgression doesn't get brought up again until after Jesus' death.
So where did Original Sin come from? St Augustine, largely devised the theory of original sin. He thought that original sin was transmitted from generation to generation through sexual intercourse. Augustine did not say exactly how this happened.
Let's not be too hard on St. Augustine. He liked sex and prayed, "'Lord make me pure but not yet!'"
So where did Original Sin come from? St Augustine, largely devised the theory of original sin. He thought that original sin was transmitted from generation to generation through sexual intercourse. Augustine did not say exactly how this happened.
Plenty of Christians I have met think original sin is baloney. Bishop Shelby Spong, who was an American Episcopalian said, “Original sin is a lie against our humanity. It’s time we identify it and move beyond it,”
I was taught that the Bible stories were metaphors, not factual. And this is where sophisticated theological models comes in.
It is not only metaphor that provides flexibility in determining biblical meaning, but so does attempts at literalism.
Genesis 1:1 to 1:3, King James version:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Richard Friedman, a biblical scholar's version:
"In the beginning of God's creating the skies and the earth when the earth had been shapeless and formless, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and God's spirit was hovering on the face of the waters, God said, "Let there be light." And there was light."
The distinction between the two is critical. The first referencing God creating the world from nothing at all (creatio ex nihilo) and the second describing a pre-existing world that God has added order to.
There is a legitimate literalist interpretation that would result in God not having created the universe, which means Creationism is not a proper interpretation of the Bible.
Reply to Tom Storm I haven't read Spong recently, but have in the 'distant past'. Original Sin is, at the very least, an unnecessary doctrine. Presumably God does not need our help in justifying Christ's redemptive sacrifice.
BTW, Harvey Cox, an American Theologian at Harvard (now 93) wrote ON NOT LEAVING IT TO THE SNAKE (1969) in which he argued that the trouble with Adam and Eve isn't that they ate the forbidden fruit. They were intended to eat it. Their 'sin' was in allowing some snake to seduce them into eating it, rather than making up their own minds.
There is a legitimate literalist interpretation that would result in God not having created the universe, which means Creationism is not a proper interpretation of the Bible.
Indeed. Another dimension to all of this. Thanks. Thinking back, I'm fairly sure I was taught that god brought order and goodness to chaos and did not create the world as such.
the trouble with Adam and Eve isn't that they ate the forbidden fruit. They were intended to eat it. Their 'sin' was in allowing some snake to seduce them into eating it, rather than making up their own minds.
Isn't the snake the only being which talks truth in Genesis? One wonders how the snake knew what the fruit could do?
BTW, Harvey Cox, an American Theologian at Harvard (now 93) wrote ON NOT LEAVING IT TO THE SNAKE (1969) in which he argued that the trouble with Adam and Eve isn't that they ate the forbidden fruit. They were intended to eat it. Their 'sin' was in allowing some snake to seduce them into eating it, rather than making up their own minds.
The other explanation is that it's just a simple etiological fable, attempting to explain why pregnancy is painful, people have to work, and why snakes have no legs, never intended as literal, but just a story.
The concept of an accurate historical narrative, where sources are checked and verified, is a modern notion.
Maybe people just spun yarns to try and offer explanations, with much less concern on scientific validity than we have now.
Noble DustNovember 08, 2022 at 04:40#7549230 likes
Maybe people just spun yarns to try and offer explanations
I think that even this is a modern notion. It's a modern projection to imagine that in this pre-modern world it was ok to just make up stories in order to create some hypothetical sense of history as we know it now. Another case of modern projection unto the past; a world which we can never know.
The other explanation is that it's just a simple etiological fable, attempting to explain why pregnancy is painful, people have to work, and why snakes have no legs, never intended as literal, but just a story.
Of course, it may be an etiological fable. It is still a story that can be interpreted, rather than having an obvious literal meaning. I think it's worthwhile for theologians to find other meanings.
I don't know to what degree the historical texts in the OT are representative of actual events, but the creation chapters are obviously not historical. Same for Noah's flood, etc. Its a-historicity makes it all the more irritating when people read it literally. Same for various other tales.
Maybe people just spun yarns to try and offer explanations, with much less concern on scientific validity than we have now.
Yarn-spinning for sure, but with more purpose than producing a tale that people would sit still to hear. The OT, like the NT, was assembled over time, with different sections serving different purposes. The Song of Solomon and Leviticus had different functions in pre-diaspora Judaism, but they both belong (which you already know).
Well, sure. They weren't concerned with "scientific validity". My 25¢ intuition is that we have always had a need for some kind of explanation for what ever it was that happened. Every now and then our ancient ancestors even figured out what happened. Like, too big a fire in the cave may cause the ceiling of the cave to collapse, smashing whoever it landed on. Or that fish and visiting Neanderthals stink after three days.
The other explanation is that it's just a simple etiological fable, attempting to explain why pregnancy is painful, people have to work, and why snakes have no legs, never intended as literal, but just a story.
The concept of an accurate historical narrative, where sources are checked and verified, is a modern notion.
Of course, it may be an etiological fable. It is still a story that can be interpreted, rather than having an obvious literal meaning. I think it's worthwhile for theologians to find other meanings.
I don't know to what degree the historical texts in the OT are representative of actual events, but the creation chapters are obviously not historical. Same for Noah's flood, etc. Its a-historicity makes it all the more irritating when people read it literally. Same for various other tales.
This is from "Against Interpretation" by Susan Sontag. I don't know if what she says is right, but it's interesting. I added some paragraph breaks because the original was one long paragraph and I found it hard to read.
[i]What situation could prompt this curious project for transforming a text? History gives us the materials for an answer. Interpretation first appears in the culture of late classical antiquity, when the power and credibility of myth had been broken by the “realistic” view of the world introduced by scientific enlightenment. Once the question that haunts post-mythic consciousness—that of the seemliness of religious symbols—had been asked, the ancient texts were, in their pristine form, no longer acceptable. Then interpretation was summoned, to reconcile the ancient texts to “modern” demands.
Thus, the Stoics, to accord with their view that the gods had to be moral, allegorized away the rude features of Zeus and his boisterous clan in Homer’s epics. What Homer really designated by the adultery of Zeus with Leto, they explained, was the union between power and wisdom. In the same vein, Philo of Alexandria interpreted the literal historical narratives of the Hebrew Bible as spiritual paradigms. The story of the exodus from Egypt, the wandering in the desert for forty years, and the entry into the promised land, said Philo, was really an allegory of the individual soul’s emancipation, tribulations, and final deliverance.
Interpretation thus presupposes a discrepancy between the clear meaning of the text and the demands of (later) readers. It seeks to resolve that discrepancy. The situation is that for some reason a text has become unacceptable; yet it cannot be discarded. Interpretation is a radical strategy for conserving an old text, which is thought too precious to repudiate, by revamping it. The interpreter, without actually erasing or rewriting the text, is altering it. But he can’t admit to doing this. He claims to be only making it intelligible, by disclosing its true meaning. However far the interpreters alter the text (another notorious example is the Rabbinic and Christian “spiritual” interpretations of the clearly erotic Song of Songs), they must claim to be reading off a sense that is already there.[/i]
L'éléphantNovember 08, 2022 at 06:42#7549380 likes
If you want to eat fried food, fry it yourself, instead of eating commercially fried food. It's healthier. Use a simple avocado or olive oil.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 09:52#7549480 likes
The reason I prefer believers is their critiques generally have more impact on other believers, who might hear 'atheism' and dismiss whatever is said. This is the reality, whether it is appropriate or not.
I would assume the Christians who dissent from inside the Christians world have the weight of their hierarchy descend on them. That seems a relatively weak force to me. Someone like Matt Dillahunty (also a ex Christian official), has regular theist callers in his phone-in shows and he regularly gets Christian variants phoning in to say they are no longer Christians based on his arguments. I think we need many more Matt Dillahunty's and groups like Mythvision with Derek Lambert. There are many other significant atheists occupying platforms which expose the irrationality of religion. From Dawkins and Dennet to people like Forrest Valkai, Shannon Q, Aron Ra etc.
I am surprised that you would throw down such a gauntlet!
To list all the contradictions in the bible would take a long time.
How about a couple of easy ones to start with: You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, Exodus 34:14
Then we have the likes of: Corinthians 3:3, You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
The story of Job, in which the devil is able to agitate god enough to bring all sorts of nasty happenings into this poor guy's life and then the bible has content such as: Proverbs 8:13, To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
That's before we discuss Christian concepts like the seven deadly sins and compare them to claimed statements made by this god.
We could move onto such issues as the shit he let 'Dave the Shepard King of Israel,' get away with while god was going around smiting people for dropping one side of his arc of the covenant or sending she bears to kill children for calling one of his prophets baldy. These are examples of contradictory words and actions, are they not? You certainly can't excuse them using a word like allegory (hidden meaning).
I think this is part of what Sam Harris was referring to, when he uses the term 'fooling ourselves.'
I grew up in the Baptist tradition in the 1970's. I was taught that the Bible stories were metaphors, not factual.
Do they not also believe that John the baptist was way more important than Jesus? The fact that there are so many Christian variants, to me, is another contradiction.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 10:05#7549490 likes
This is addressed in the William James article I attached.
A pragmatically based will to believe does not equate to a will to make believe.
Yeah, but I am just airing my protest that the justifications, for what this article suggests is a 'pragmatic approach' and a 'will to believe,' is, in the judgement of many people, no more than as Sam Harris suggests, 'people who are fooling themselves,' and who claim that they must be given a special dispensation to do so, and that we all need to respect their right to do so.
I agree that we need to accept that they believe what they say, but I also think it's perfectly valid to use the full weight of argument against them and not hold back due to some notion of a historical tradition of reverence for the claimed divinity of their beliefs.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 10:26#7549510 likes
There are more paths away from belief, but the point is, it isn't always deficient doctrine.
I have not met an atheist, who is familiar with the content of religious texts, who thinks there is zero value in such texts. But the value to be garnished, relates to conformation of that which can serve us as good exemplars of human morality scenarios or lessons on how to create and maintain a good, progressive human civilisation. Unfortunately, along with these valuable examples of good behaviour, good decision making, good morality, etc, there are nonsense examples of supernatural activity and supernatural sources of the wisdom presented. As you suggest, a person can normally come to this realisation themselves, via study, that we can take the social lessons contained in such texts and reject the woo woo. I think that's what most non-believers in theism, do.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 10:37#7549520 likes
Are you familiar with the story of Adam's first wife Lilith?
Did she not sin before Eve?
She wanted to take the dominant top position during sex with Adam, even though god told her not to, so she was the first to disobey god. Why is poor wee Eve getting all the blame and why do the women always get the blame for original sin? After all, it was Adam that let Lilith go on top and it was he that accepted the Apple. Do you think it's because men wrote these stories? :lol: :roll:
Along with these bizarre religious stories that humans have to argue about the truth of, we have some antinatalist flavours who posit that the fact that life began in the universe at all, was some kind of original sin. I base this on the typing's of @Tzeentch on the antinatalism thread.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 10:42#7549540 likes
Isn't the snake the only being which talks truth in Genesis? One wonders how the snake knew what the fruit could do?
I am sure I read somewhere that the snake was what god turned Lilith into, for disobeying it.
javi2541997November 08, 2022 at 12:17#7549760 likes
I want to ask the mods @Jamal or @Baden or @Michael to please ask universeness to stop insulting and denigrating the history of my country.
One month ago, you asked me to please stop spreading hate against Jews and I did so.
Now, I expect the same against universeness's hispanophobic.
agree that we need to accept that they believe what they say, but I also think it's perfectly valid to use the full weight of argument against them and not hold back due to some notion of a historical tradition of reverence for the claimed divinity of their beliefs.
This ignores the argument from pragmatism and falls back to a correspondence epistemology and just restates it.
If it is the belief that God is on our side that wins wars and results in a more just society than its counterpart, is that not a basis for belief? Or do you suggest that the lack of correspondence with reality makes this happy, joyous, and just society worse than a miserable one because that society has the integrity to admit to truth?
My position is that what inspires us need not be tangible or provable, but inspiration towards the positive is desirable, regardless of whether you think the emperor wears no clothes.
Please send me a PM with links to the posts that you think broke the rules and I'll check them and take action if necessary. And also please don't use the Shoutbox for complaints about other members.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 14:10#7550020 likes
If it is the belief that God is on our side that wins wars and results in a more just society than its counterpart, is that not a basis for belief?
Not if it's NOT TRUE! That's the very point Sam Harris is making imo. If there is virtually zero evidence that god is an existent then why should nonbelievers give the idea any special dispensation or respect? That is my question!
This ignores the argument from pragmatism and falls back to a correspondence epistemology and just restates it.
I took some time to read: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-correspondence/
In light of that, I stated that I accept that theists believe what they say. You have typed that these beliefs have practical applications which help people live 'successful' and 'contented' lives (you present this as a pragmatic truth). You suggest I am ignoring this and suggesting that this IS, is in truth a NOT, as such people are living in a fake paradise and are fooling themselves. If that is the basis of what you typed, then I would plead guilty as charged and am happy to do so.
Or do you suggest that the lack of correspondence with reality makes this happy, joyous, and just society worse than a miserable one because that society has the integrity to admit to truth?
Why do you assume that the alternative society is a miserable one?
I live a completely god/theism/supernatural/woo woo free life and I feel as many moments of wonderment, contentment, fulfilment, awe etc etc about life and living in this universe, when compared to any human I have saw on tv, in full religious rapture mode, speaking in tongues, squirming on the floor or sweating, screaming and crying with their hands held aloft, looking like a junkie on a mad acid trip.
Religious mass hysteria is just common human mass hysteria and nothing more, certainly nothing supernatural. There is no empirical evidence of such at all.
My position is that what inspires us need not be tangible or provable, but inspiration towards the positive is desirable, regardless of whether you think the emperor wears no clothes.
I could not disagree more. We dont need appeals to woo woo to inspire. I don't understand why you don't find the materialistic and physical mysteries of the universe enough inspiration for you.
Why do you need a god or an interested eye towards the non-existent supernatural to inspire you when you have the who, what, how and why regarding yourself and every other REAL existent in the universe, to be excited about.
Why can't you see the naked emperor? In fact, why can't you see that there is no emperor!
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 14:21#7550060 likes
Reply to javi2541997
Sorry Javi! I will focus more on the Brits, the French and the Russians and the Germans in the future.
So many tyrants to get through and not enough time in the day!
Not if it's NOT TRUE! That's the very point Sam Harris is making imo. If there is virtually zero evidence that god is an existent then why should nonbelievers give the idea any special dispensation or respect? That is my question!
Again, you're just reiterating your reliance upon the correspondence theory of truth (in all caps no less) without offering a basis for it. These are competing epistemologies as they've been laid out, with your position being that that which is not provable is false. I've left open calling that which is not provable or disprovable true if it is pragmatically useful. Quoting universeness
You suggest I am ignoring this and suggesting that this IS, is in truth a NOT, as such people are living in a fake paradise and are fooling themselves. If that is the basis of what you typed, then I would plead guilty as charged and am happy to do so.
Calling it a "fake" paradise is a shift. I've not suggested accepting known falsehoods. Pragmatism doesn't permit ignoring known false claims.Quoting universeness
Why do you assume that the alternative society is a miserable one?
Because that's how hypotheticals work. A scenario is posited and from there a thought experiment occurs. My question was whether in an assumed scenario where a belief in theism resulted in a happier existence, would you accept the theistic belief. Instead of entertaining the hypothetical, you avoided the question and just told me that in your experience what I hypothesized hasn't happened.
So, returning then to what I was talking about, the question remains, if (and this is an assumption) it could be shown that theistic beliefs result in happier existences, would you accept them? If the answer is yes, then we can go about seeing if that hypothetical scenario could be a reality. It's also entirely possible that what holds true for you doesn't for me, which would then mean that there is a logical basis for theism for me. The problem this creates for atheists of the Sam Harris variety is that it requires an allowance for theism for some, which is what he seems to reject.Quoting universeness
Because that's how hypotheticals work. A scenario is posited and from there a thought experiment occurs. My question was whether in an assumed scenario where a belief in theism resulted in a happier existence, would you accept the theistic belief. Instead of entertaining the hypothetical, you avoided the question and just told me that in your experience what I hypothesized hasn't happened.
A belief in theism can result in a happier existence than that same individual may experience without their theism, yes, BUT you are leaving them in a fake state of ignorant bliss when I believe they could be so much more if they go through the 'cold turkey' of loss of their theism and are supported and aided into their new gloriously exciting REAL world. I would not be content with leaving people plugged into the matrix. The real world can be much tougher, yes, but with all hands-on deck, we have a much better chance of improving things a lot faster.
As Bob Dylan says, "Don't criticize what you can't understand."
I'm not a Dylan fan as he has a crap voice imo but yeah, he does write some good lyrics.
Not the one you just typed however. By criticising what you don't understand, others can help you understand and if they can't then perhaps you are just too stupid and that will inspire you to do more study in the topic at issue or your criticism has value.
If I was Elon, I would buy TPF and sack your mod ass!
You can't always get what you want but even if you do;
If I get banned here Javi, I will moan about the historical behaviour of the Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Russians, French, British, Germans, Italians, Romans, Greeks, Spartans, Assyrians, Homo Sapiens on the many many other discussion websites available on the internet.
I think you should seek more significant victories in your life.
I am surprised that you would throw down such a gauntlet!
To list all the contradictions in the bible would take a long time.
I'm not sure you are following my point very well; maybe my language was unclear. I addressed the contradiction issue. A collection of allegories shoved together in an anthology is bound to provide different accounts. That's kind of inherent to allegorical storytelling, right? When I was in Bible class 40 years ago, the minister would list some Biblical contradictions and we would laugh about them and suggest others. The overarching view was, 'This is an old book of allegorical stories designed to get you thinking about divinity, morality and meaning, it is not a scientific text and allows for a multiplicity of accounts.' This view of god is more Paul Tillich than Jerry Falwell. I don't expect you to care about this difference, but I do.
universenessNovember 08, 2022 at 23:24#7551420 likes
Reply to Tom Storm
Yeah, I think I misunderstood your post Tom. You were simply typing about the bible taken metaphorically rather than literally, yes?
Born as a regular star 10.7 billion years ago (only 3 billion years after the Big Bang), the stellar corpse, named WDJ2147-4035, is one of two white dwarfs polluted by planetary debris that have been newly discovered in data collected by the European Space Agency's Gaia galaxy-mapping mission.
universenessNovember 10, 2022 at 10:17#7553930 likes
Reply to Hanover
Some bad shit happened in the life of Les McKeown.
Totally ripped off by his vile manager Tam Paton (now dead).
Paton was also jailed in 1982 for abuse of male children.
McKeown claimed he was raped by Paton when he was just 17 and starting out in the Bay City Rollers.
Then he said he was date raped at 19 by another man in a hotel room in America
In 1975 he knocked down and killed a 76-year-old woman in Edinburgh.
McKeown was also accused himself of raping one of the later band members in 2007. The guitarist Pat McGlynn.
He spent most of his life in and out of rehab.
He was also married to a woman called Keiko.
Drug and alcohol abuse finally killed Mr McKeown, at only 65.
Not a life that anyone would envy I think, despite the 'fame and fortune,' he had as well.
SpaceDwellerNovember 10, 2022 at 13:15#7554250 likes
SpaceDwellerNovember 10, 2022 at 15:20#7554490 likes
Reply to Jamal
Thanks, I completely missed these settings.
universenessNovember 10, 2022 at 16:12#7554600 likes
Reply to unenlightened
The King of skiffle! Lonnie Donegan.
I think he is also famed for the most number of repeats of a place name in the whole history of music. Can you guess what place he was referring to from:
Some bad shit happened in the life of Les McKeown.
Good God, that is a miserable life. They seemed so much happier in the video.
universenessNovember 10, 2022 at 16:51#7554800 likes
Reply to Hanover
Yeah, the world of fame and fortune, eh?
Wouldn't be so bad, if there were not so many other horrific tales from those who have lived that particular lifestyle. Best to avoid I think, too many pitfalls!
The Cumberland Gap National Historical Park is a United States National Historical Park located at the border between Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia, centered on the Cumberland Gap, a natural break in the Appalachian Mountains.
universenessNovember 11, 2022 at 11:18#7556490 likes
Reply to jorndoe
Can I steal this and post it on the antinatalist thread? Just as some examples of 'current humans' trying to alleviate current and future human suffering. I won't copy and paste it until I have your permission to, and I won't at all, if you don't want me to. Perhaps you might decide to copy and paste it there yourself.
I think it's useful to post some such examples there, but I can find my own, if you object to me hijacking your examples. I think these are valid counters to the antinatalism position.
Is there anyone on the forum who has found all the answers? The answers to the questions of God and the meaning of life?
"God probably exists, unless God doesn't. Life is probably what you're experiencing, unless it's not. Either way be sure to smile for the camera when the ride enters a designated photography zone."
My go-to advice for atheists. No complaints yet. Works for carny folk too. They love me at the fair.
Think of it this way, friend. Is the meaning of something you experience it's intent? Whose? What is the meaning of a brick or a piece of ammunition? Sure, to be used in construction or fired, respectively. But why does it have to be? Maybe that brick would instead be used to defeat an attacker and prevent him from detonating all of the world's nuclear weapons at once whereas any other use of said item simply creates futility that always gets destroyed one way or the other. In a larger sense, is the "meaning" or purpose of a brick building structures of no lasting effect or saving the world from destruction? Seems to me like the choice is largely yours.
It's funny, sometimes only in purposelessness can one begin to ascertain any true understanding or essence of whatever meaning may or may not be present. Of course, this leads us inevitably back to where we started from, what's the meaning? Legendary detective Sherlock Holmes once said "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - no matter how unlikely - must be the truth".
So the question is.. how goes your hunt for eliminating the impossible? Any progress you can share?
You missed Paul Russell's founding of PF, the illustrious progenitor of TPF, which I'm guessing was in the early 2000s.
This is a common misconception. Bertrand Russell founded PF in 1927. Paul Russell, Bertrand's grandson and Jamal's uncle, tried to claim credit. I'm just setting the record straight.
It's funny, sometimes only in purposelessness can one begin to ascertain any true understanding or essence of whatever meaning may or may not be present. Of course, this leads us inevitably back to where we started from, what's the meaning? Legendary detective Sherlock Holmes once said "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - no matter how unlikely - must be the truth".
So the question is.. how goes your hunt for eliminating the impossible? Any progress you can share?
I am a former philo head. Back when I used to get amped up on stimulants like methylphenidate and do Philosophy. I've traversed several plateaus. Sometimes I felt theistic. At other times, like, when I come down from a weed high, i felt atheistic. Presently I'm sober and I'm caught up in the IT field. I don't have time to think about philosophy, at least not at the moment. But when I think about how things are going, and meditate on it a bit, It feels like we are living in a simulation.
This is a common misconception. Bertrand Russell founded PF in 1927. Paul Russell, Bertrand's grandson and Jamal's uncle, tried to claim credit. I'm just setting the record straight.
But when I think about how things are going, and meditate on it a bit, It feels like we are living in a simulation.
Whose? To put it mildly, I for one would like to have a go at them! (I mean, just take a look at what their simulation(s) consist of.)
As to the matrix/womb motif, to ... heck ... with the movie! In one sense, one can think of it in terms of how bone cells perpetually create the ever-changing bone matrix in which they dwell. No simulations or reality involved: rather, the very nature of reality itself. If you're into that kind of thing, that is; it's a bit too Eastern-thought-ish for most.
Reply to javra I'm of two minds now. Funny how my appeal to authority can affect my decision about about something. Like i said I've been on both ends of the spectrum. A believer when I'm high, a non believer while I come down or crash.
Reply to Jamal Yeh, true. The original person who took a chance on setting up a philosophy forum. Hear, hear to Paul.
universenessNovember 12, 2022 at 22:38#7559460 likes
The earliest person who is cited by ancient sources as a philosopher is Thales, who lived in the city of Miletus in Asia Minor around the late 7th or early 6th century BCE. He is credited with attempts to expand the Greeks' knowledge in several fields: mathematics, astronomy, navigation, and the investigation of the fundamental nature of what exists.
So, who on TPF should be awarded the identifier 'Thales (the originator.)'
universenessNovember 12, 2022 at 22:48#7559490 likes
Metaphysician UndercoverNovember 13, 2022 at 00:32#7559780 likes
Reply to universeness
Thales is also famous for being the first to monopolize. I think he bought up the rights of usage for many of the olive presses, for the time period which he figured would be the peak harvest period. He did this prior to the season. Then when harvest came, and he owned the rights to all the olive presses, he was able to rent them out at a big profit.
He is also accredited as the first to successfully predict a solar eclipse. I guess with all that money he made off the olive presses he was able to sit around and focus on the movements of heavenly bodies.
This is a common misconception. Bertrand Russell founded PF in 1927. Paul Russell, Bertrand's grandson and Jamal's uncle, tried to claim credit. I'm just setting the record straight.
The PF of which we speak (back in '27) ran on the dark telegraph. Teenagers had figured out how to send telegraph messages to each other for free. If you wanted to clutch your pearls before swine, task #1 was finding a crooked but competent juvenile. Task #2 was to learn Morse Code. After Task #3 (climbing up a pole to tap the telegraph line), you could become a supporter for 25¢ a year.
Fortunately for free thought in America, the Coolidge Administration had no interest in the dark telegraph.
How would you know? By what non-simulation could you have possibly made a comparison against? From a time in your life you knew little about what went on around you and even less about what was going on in front of you? Nothing is formless anymore. Everything has lines, borders, edges, a beginning and an end. Distinction, if you will. Both the immaterial (time, existence, etc) and that which can be held ("a stuff" as colorful folk on here say). Noticing these distinctions in the form of a long term observational synchronicity that seem to betray a larger, singular entity or construct of separate and unique constitution and being is not uncommon.
It's all pattern recognition. Your mind playing tricks on you. Leftover remnants of evolutionary survival adaptation from times past. Utterly random groupings of nerves or tendencies of related function that just so happened to have helped the host survive a particular time and place. Similar to anxiety disorders. Right? :)
According to NBC news, the Democrats have won the Senate seat in Nevada and now have a 50 to 49 seat lead. That's all they need to control the Senate. The last seat will be determined in a run-off election in Georgia in December.
Reply to Outlander You seem to be an evolutionist. I have issues with that approach. I also have my own theories about that. But there's always something i might be missing. The problem of how consciousness arose from non-consciouslessness. I'm not sure i want to take a reductionist approach to understanding life as it is now. Right now my approach is more about the "feels" rather than research, reduction, and analysis. But you may be right.
It's been a while since I've considered what "title" or "-isms" I do and do not explicitly exalt as above any other thing or as absolute truth rather. I know well-to-do adults who believe dinosaur bones were magically put in the ground by a supernatural being (or I suppose that they are otherwise of deceptive origin). They're some of the most free-thinking and fun to be around people I know. Naturally I worry about their life choices and overall malleability but that's beside the point.
I'm willing to divulge I believe in the possibility of creationism within or not within the bounds of widely-held notions typically associated with and generally operate under this mindset when engaging in theistic philosophies. You cannot bridge a gap between two people by explicitly operating under a mindset which denies any and all possibility of one's reality entirely.
The problem of how consciousness arose from non-consciouslessness
The takeaway from evolution is that the chaos of the universe is essentially a killing floor, the entropy of it rather. Literally every possible thing (or combination of things) that could happen on a molecular level did over enough time and randomness. You could say that everything is conscious by nature on the smallest level ie. reacts to stimuli. That ours is simply more advanced with functions we can control such as memory and thus ability to think or otherwise form a unique "identity" that we consider a person. To bridge a gap between two people you must also understand what both people do and do not consider factual or to be possible and why.
when harvest came, and he owned the rights to all the olive presses, he was able to rent them out at a big profit.
Yeah but according to Wiki, Aristotle wrote: Thales' objective in doing this was not to enrich himself but to prove to his fellow Milesians that philosophy could be useful, contrary to what they thought, or alternatively, Thales had made his foray into enterprise because of a personal challenge put to him by an individual who had asked why, if Thales was an intelligent famous philosopher, he had yet to attain wealth.
So maybe after he made his point and his dosh, he used it to help poor people!
If he didn't then yeah, just another capitalist hellboy!
Metaphysician UndercoverNovember 13, 2022 at 12:34#7560160 likes
Reply to universeness
I think that predicting the solar eclipse earned him the reputation of sage, but I have a feeling that he did the magic trick with the olive presses before he predicted the eclipse. Anyway, if he was attempting to give philosophy a good name that was in vain because those attempts were quickly overwhelmed by sophistry, and Socrates felt the wrath.
universenessNovember 13, 2022 at 13:38#7560180 likes
Anyway, if he was attempting to give philosophy a good name that was in vain because those attempts were quickly overwhelmed by sophistry, and Socrates felt the wrath.
The interesting thing for me regarding the idea of the 'first philosopher,' is, would Thales have recognised himself as such? Would he have produced a list of names of people, that he learned from? and would he suggest that our definition of the term 'philosopher' would better fit the people that he would list?
I think we have more information missing about the who, what, when, where, why, of 'philosophy'/'science,' from the early days than we have reliable information regarding the who, what. when, where, why of philosophy/science from those early/classical/ancient times.
We have no text written by Socrates himself. There were probably philosophers/scientists who were actually as significant or even more significant than any of those we know, who lived way before any of the ones anyone has heard of. I kind of like that as it means that there is no 'perfect form of, (so Platonism is flawed) and no 'ideal of' (so Aristotelianism is flawed) philosophy.
I like that philosophy, can just be people talking about their personal musings, on how they view their personal experience of existence as a human.
This is an interesting graphic I cut out from "Real Clear Politics," a good, if conservative, website on US politics. It shows each House of Representative district with a colored dot. Blue means Democratic, red means Republican. Light red or blue mean one party or the other is leading, but the vote count is still underway.
What's interesting to me is how the map shows the distribution of population in the US. Each dot should represent an approximately equal number of people. There are 435 representatives/districts and the US population is about 332 million. That means each dot represents about 763,000 people.
Reply to Jamal, Reply to Moliere, ah, we remember Paul, from back in the days before the exodus and the time of wandering, before Jamal made for us this sacred place! But the young folk won't listen, they think it was always this way...
unenlightenedNovember 14, 2022 at 10:19#7561670 likes
Me too. Text is linear, a journey with a beginning and an end; but a map is an infinity of potential journeys, each a different tale, that the-map reader is free to choose from.
"Amazon founder Jeff Bezos plans to give away the majority of his $124 billion net worth during his lifetime, telling CNN in an exclusive interview he will devote the bulk of his wealth to fighting climate change and supporting people who can unify humanity in the face of deep social and political divisions.". --CNN
Reply to unenlightened Once I gave a guy directions, telling him to turn right at that road, left at the other, giving distances and land markers and the like, and I looked at what he wrote down and he had written it out as a map, which I thought was an interesting way to think. I would have just written out the steps, but he saw things visually.
I've since changed my linear ways, and if you were to tell me directions now, I would write out a map. Actually, I'd just ask my car to load in the directions and some nice lady would tell me where to turn, but, if it were 20 years ago, I'd be all about the maps.
"Amazon founder Jeff Bezos plans to give away the majority of his $124 billion net worth during his lifetime, telling CNN in an exclusive interview he will devote the bulk of his wealth to fighting climate change and supporting people who can unify humanity in the face of deep social and political divisions.". -
I've changed my view on climate change and concluded that the problem is unresolvable, and we should live our lives however we want. Without universal compliance, our efforts will be useless. Whenever part of a solution requires worldwide compliance, peace, and harmony, then that's not a solution, but a utopian dream.
What we need to do is prepare for the increased beach front property. That's my solution. Hate me, love me, but I've thrown in the towel on this one.
unenlightenedNovember 14, 2022 at 15:06#7562010 likes
It's going to decrease, not increase. It would increase if there was more land than ocean, but there isn't. All the land is islands, big or small, and those islands will all shrink as sea level rises. Smaller islands have less beachfront.
I've changed my view on climate change and concluded that the problem is unresolvable, and we should live our lives however we want. Without universal compliance, our efforts will be useless.
I am very pessimistic about our collective future with respect to global warming. In vernacular terms, we are totally screwed.
Perhaps if Europe, China, and the US achieved zero CO2 emissions within the next few years, we could avoid a hot Armageddon. But, alas. Were Europe, China, and the US to cease CO2 emissions soon enough to change the course, the world-wide social-political-economic cratering would be devastating, catastrophic, and all-round, very very bad.
I've changed my view on climate change and concluded that the problem is unresolvable, and we should live our lives however we want. Without universal compliance, our efforts will be useless
It's going to decrease, not increase. It would increase if there was more land than ocean, but there isn't. All the land is islands, big or small, and those islands will all shrink as sea level rises. Smaller islands have less beachfront.
As you can see from the diagrams:
Diagram A has an area of 314.16 miles (10 x 10 x Pi)
Diagram A has a coastal area of 62.82 miles (2 x Pi x 10)
Diagram B has been devastated by global warming, now with a waterway directly through the island, dividing families literally across their dining room tables.
Diagram B has an area of approximately 274.16 (314.16 - (2 x 20))
Diagram B has a coastal area of approximately 98.82 (62.82 - 4 + 40)
I've given approximates for B because there is a small arc at the top of the circle I treated a straight line for simplicity sake.
The point being that erosion of land mass due to climate change does not necessarily result in a loss of surface area of land to water.
This math experiment offers solid support for my not caring about climate change.
Reply to universeness The handover would occur if there were non-compliance by other nations, which would allow their economies to thrive, and ours to falter, and we wouldn't even achieve the objective of saving the environment due to their non-compliance.
My point is valid here, which is that it requires not only that you and I comply, but that all others do as well, even those that we know won't.
unenlightenedNovember 14, 2022 at 21:02#7562620 likes
it requires not only that you and I comply, but that all others do as well, even those that we know won't.
Greens are necessarily fascists. People are dumb and have to be forced to do what is in their best interest. If you're all 'oh never mind let's all die', then you are one of the dumb ones. I'll be round later to sort you out.
The manuscript he's trying to get published is sort of magical realism/alternative reality/alternative history...I guess. It's weird. His roots are in more classic sci-fi.
The manuscript he's trying to get published is sort of magical realism/alternative reality/alternative history...I guess. It's weird. His roots are in more classic sci-fi.
When it gets closer to publication, let us know.
Noble DustNovember 14, 2022 at 23:13#7562880 likes
The manuscript he's trying to get published is sort of magical realism/alternative reality/alternative history...I guess. It's weird. His roots are in more classic sci-fi.
No offence to your brother and good luck to him but I think there should be a major literary award going to the person who doesn't write a novel in a given year. For services to literature... that kind of thing.
Noble DustNovember 15, 2022 at 02:31#7563310 likes
L'éléphantNovember 15, 2022 at 03:34#7563440 likes
My biggest fear around Christmas time is the appearance of Panetone bread. I'm not kidding. When you get one, turn around and wrap it and bring it to work and give it to a co-worker. You'll find that this co-worker is smarter because they'll say, "No!" (not even a thank you at the end of "no")
So, then you put it back in your bag until another co-worker gets an idea that it'll be a good gift for a friend whom they haven't remembered to get a present for. Then you feel a pang of guilt for that stranger you haven't met which is now a would-be recipient of a discarded bread.
My point is valid here, which is that it requires not only that you and I comply, but that all others do as well, even those that we know won't.
Perhaps if island nations such as Vanuatu actually cease to exist, which is getting to the 'almost guaranteed' level of prediction based on climate change data, more and more nations will not need any more 'convincing.' I posted a thread on Philosophical Brinksmanship a while ago, as it seems to me that most humans don't fully fight for change until they notice that the flames are lapping around their own arse.
I hope it's not too late to start to reverse the damage we continue to do to the only planet we can currently live on. Don't give up on us yet Han(d)over!
universenessNovember 15, 2022 at 09:17#7563640 likes
Sure. This isn't a guarantee of publication though; the agent has to successfully sell the novel to a publisher, if I understand correctly.
You can self-publish for around £2000.
universenessNovember 15, 2022 at 09:47#7563690 likes
Based on today's date. I found this quite interesting in the news.
I like the fact its a great answer to the antinatalists but yeah, too many people for a species that has still not learned how to share space and resources in a way that works for everyone.
World population is expected to reach 8 billion people on November 15, 2022 according to the United Nations
I searched 'bing' for 'current world population' and got a site showing the ascending number.
I froze it at. 8,000,013,578. The site is : Current World Population of Humans
The 'view all people on 1 page' and the 'watch as we increase' option is interesting to view. As each new stick person image appears, you can ruminate at the rate of appearance of new humans on Earth.
unenlightenedNovember 15, 2022 at 10:26#7563790 likes
unenlightenedNovember 15, 2022 at 14:42#7564280 likes
Reply to frank That should help stabilise the population, and improve sexual morality at the same time. I hear the Dogger bank has already gone under - something to do with the recession I imagine. If only they had had the sense to float it on the stock exchange!
universenessNovember 15, 2022 at 18:47#7564860 likes
Reply to T Clark
Now there's a fun job for an apprentice!
Would the instructions be something like:
"Now here your microscope, your large bag of small steel balls to move one by one from the full bag to the empty bag for each sperm you separate with your 'little micro stick thing.'
Now don't f*** this up! The world needs to know the truth man!
Oh, you still need a sample, don't you.
I'll be back in 30 seconds, just wait there a minute, now where's that picture of........."
It's so long since I've been to see live music, I've forgotten what it's like.
Actually no, what am I talking about? I went to see some pleasingly strange live music in August. It was mostly successful and substantially improvised Indian/African/Scottish fusion. Bewitching. Lambent.
But I haven't been to a big show for years.
universenessNovember 17, 2022 at 08:38#7569920 likes
This was the first proper rock show I'd been to since pre-covid. I did see Kamasi Washington a few months ago at an outdoor festival-style bill. Spiritual. Ebullient.
The weird fusion show sounds...weird.
universenessNovember 17, 2022 at 09:07#7570030 likes
Reply to Jamal
I have a copy of all of the AfroCelt CD's that fuse world trad music with trad scots music. The group you mention seems like clones of that style. But I also own a copy of every Mike Oldfield and Jean Michele Jarre album, so I like of music which is mainly instrumental.
Mr Emmerson put out other cd's that fuse say hispanic trad music with african trad music, for example but I didn't think they worked quite as well. Emmerson is involved with a lot of folk albums as well, such as 'The Imagined Village' and 'Cool As Folk,' etc. Good background music when doing DIY around the house etc.
I regret to say that it would have been better without the Scottish lady's aimless wailing. The other musicians were playing tabla, sitar, kora and thumb piano, which were all great. Super. Ultratolerable.
Mr Emmerson put out other cd's that fuse say hispanic trad music with african trad music, for example but I didn't think they worked quite as well. Emmerson is involved with a lot of folk albums as well, such as 'The Imagined Village' and 'Cool As Folk,' etc. Good background music when doing DIY around the house etc.
I may seek out some of this stuff, although I'm not very good at DIY.
Weirdly I didn't either until I listened to some of his records at properly high volume. The somewhat cheesy epicness of it actually makes sense when it's loud. Unfortunately, I saw him at this outdoor venue in Brooklyn which is notorious for bad sound, which was the case. Plus, none of his high profile buddies were there, like Terrace Martin or Robert Glasper. Fun (free) show, but nothing special. Unfortunate. Ill-fated.
Weirdly I didn't either until I listened to some of his records at properly high volume. The somewhat cheesy epicness of it actually makes sense when it's loud.
Yeah I can see that. I think my current hi-fi is not up to the task. Plus, what I heard sounded kinda derivative, hence the cheese factor.
Noble DustNovember 17, 2022 at 09:27#7570100 likes
I don't disagree about the cheese factor. We listen to vinyl at my job, and my weird boss had a record of his in for long enough that it broke me down to the point where I started to like it. I'm no apologist for him, but I've grown to like his music.
universenessNovember 17, 2022 at 09:37#7570160 likes
Reply to Jamal
Here's one from 'The Imagined Village' album, which Simon Emmerson was involved with which fuses a traditional English folk song with Indian music:
I like Bells, Crises, and Ommadawn, and I love his guitar playing, but I've found that everything after Bells hasn't had the same edge.
What about Bells II and III, Millenium Bells, Tubular Beats? All very good imo. Return to Ommadawn?
Crisis was great but so was Incantations, Discovery, Five miles out, Guitars, Platinum, QE2, Tr3S Lunas, Voyager to name but a few of Oldfields genius.
Jean has a new album out, quite an odd one for him so it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymore
I had it on pre-order and received it, about a few weeks ago. Not yet listened to it. I need to build the anticipation. I might actually give it its first outing today as I do a little more work on an oil painting.
Also been listening a lot to the French group 'Enigma's' cd's and even my old SKY cd's, do you remember them and their version of Tocatta?
Saw him at the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall about 15 years ago.
A small exclusive gig for Jean compared to London Docks etc.
I was a journeyman painter and decorator before I went back to FE college and then Uni. I was one of the workmen on the Royal Concert Hall from when it was ready for painting. I can hardly look at a tin of magnolia emulsion now as that's all that I used for about three months of painting the inside of that freakin place! I was in it recently and its now a bit of a dump. It needs a full update. It's still got the same magnolia paint I helped put on its walls and ceilings, all them years ago!
What about Bells II and III, Millenium Bells, Tubular Beats?
I view them similar to the way I view the newer Star Wars movies, though to be honest I haven't given them (the Oldfield albums) a chance. To be even more honest, I don't like Star Wars all that much.
Oh that one was definately Mike high as a kite! 'Big brown beastie, big brown face, I'd rather be with you than fly through space!' Mike, his horse and some illegal substances I think! and what the hell was that crazy fuzzy guitar section? I like and appreciate the nuances of Hergest Ridge but only after learning how to.
To be even more honest, I don't like Star Wars all that much.
I've heard of the existence of such people, but I think this is the first time I have ever communicated with such! H...... he........hello...... welcome to our planet!
:blush: So it is! Yep my superfan badge just ran away from its pin. I will go listen to Hergest Ridge again.
I definitely remember the madcap fuzzy guitar section from Hergest Ridge and some snippets of ethereal sounds as I stared at the open fields picture on the cover. I also remember not liking it much on my first 20 or so listening's but I also remember falling asleep when listening to it and then waking up with a start when the madcap guitar bit came on. Part 1 below:
Jean has a new album out, quite an odd one for him so it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymore
Just had my first time with Oxymore!
I didn't understand the first track, Agora.
The rest were good and deserve many further listens but are you familiar with his much-debated offerings on his album Zoolook?
I think an awful lot of the effects he is using on Oxymore, have their origins in Zoolook, especially the strong 'oriental' influences present on Zoolook.
The rest were good and deserve many further listens but are you familiar with his much-debated offerings on his album Zoolook?
Yes, I got Zoolook after getting to know Oxygene and Equinoxe. I haven't listened to it for thirty years but I remember liking it and everyone else hating it.
universenessNovember 17, 2022 at 13:43#7570710 likes
Personal taste is a mighty discriminator indeed!
I love guitar riffs but I didn't connect to the 'fuzz' guitar sound used in that example and I found the rhythmic content of it boring, then it becomes just random noise before it ends.
Compare it with the Guitar riffs used by Matt Bellamy of Muse!
Don't get me wrong, I still think Oldfield is a brilliant guitarist.
Yeah, sometimes I think Zoolook is way underrated and very original and still a relatively untapped musical style. Its best to listen to Zoolook quite drunk. I don't think it works as music to relax to or paint or do DIY to but its great if you are in a kind of mad state of mind or just pissed.
So many fantastic JMJ albums, Aero, Chronologie, Magnetic fields, Metamorphoses, Rendevous, Teo & Tea etc. Have you heard Equinoxe infinity? and the amazing collaboration double album he made with many other artists called Electronica.
I don't think it works as music to relax to or paint or do DIY to but its great if you are in a kind of mad state of mind or just pissed.
You say that like these are the only options, as if when you're sober and in a sane state of mind you can only like easy listening and background music. That does not describe me. :nerd:
universenessNovember 17, 2022 at 15:15#7570900 likes
I view them similar to the way I view the newer Star Wars movies, though to be honest I haven't given them (the Oldfield albums) a chance. To be even more honest, I don't like Star Wars all that much.
Thank you. I abhor all that turgid and banal 1970's musical pap. And those dire Lucas movies should be expunged from the face of the earth. :wink:
Just to let everyone know of the superiority of the American health care system, I made an appointment at the dermatologist on Tuesday to be seen on Thursday and the lady removed a cyst from my temple.
In other US medical news, my knee hurt, so I got an appointment the next day at an MRI center and got an MRI for $400 without a referral from a doctor. I then made an appointment and saw an orthopedist the next week who went over the findings with me. He did mention how efficient I was to bring in the MRI before he ever even ordered it.
I like to get things done. I'm going to go ahead and schedule my autopsy right away. My guess is that the report will say: "Cause of death: Autopsy."
"Cause of death: Autopsy." That's a pretty good joke.
I always say, if I don't laugh at my own jokes, how can I expect other people to.
Noble DustNovember 18, 2022 at 20:46#7574430 likes
Everyone except Jamal seems to have missed the important detail that your choice of two adjectives should progress from more common to less. As in, erroneous. Infelicitous.
Let's ask the Baden.
Baden, what's happening with the December short story contest, please?
:smile: Your K.I.S.S. questions will hopefully be answered soon.
I think my long nudge was a little too early. I blame the Guardian for the jump-start about 2 weeks ago:
As a reminder:
universenessNovember 19, 2022 at 13:18#7575220 likes
Enjoying some drinks with friends in local pubs last night.
The conversation at one point, when most of us were in the 'happy glow' stage of alcohol, started to talk a little bit about who had experienced anything 'supernatural.' I was in the 'supernatural has no existents' camp but based on a post by @180 Proof, I referred to myself as a naturalist.
[b]I prefer the label physicalist rather than materialist.
— Down The Rabbit Hole
I prefer naturalist which covers them both.
- 180 Proof[/b]
A woman in the company, who I don't think was listening much to the discourse, said quite loudly towards me "How can you dae that? Just exposing yourself totally naked on beaches and ..... other places where that stuff's allowed, I think it's disgusting!"
After the laughing stopped, we eventually explained the difference between a naturalist and a naturist. :lol:
I think I will go back to using 'materialist,' no doubt some folks will think that means I am a tailor, or I make curtains and cover couches!!
Good question. I'm considering putting up a poll to gage interest. I'm just not sure not whether there's enough to sustain two of these a year.
Oh dear, I'm not feeling the joy :worry:
Perhaps it's something in the name, the rules, and the pressure of reading all before 'judging'?
I know I'd prefer a more relaxing time.
Some only seem to like the 'Guess the Author' game. That's fine and it is difficult not to have someone in mind as you read. But the ongoing speculation can detract from the story itself.
If there isn't enough interest in the Short-Story Contest, why not lose some of the restrictions?
First, ask why there is not enough interest and then what people would prefer, if anything?
I think we could all do with a bit of cheering up during the so-called festive period. To take a leap from existential-fucking-ness; to seduce and free our inner magical spirit?
Immerse, imagine and shake it up a bit. Activate the neurons and feel a little.
Even if we only read and share a few thoughts. A special gift of friendship, no?
You lost interest yourself several times and talked the competition down so I'm not going to try to guess where you're coming from here. But like many things sometimes less is more. We'll see.
You lost interest yourself several times and talked the competition down so I'm not going to try to guess where you're coming from here.
Not true.
The only time I didn't participate was in the last competition.
That was for reasons other than the competition.
I had taken leave from TPF for a while, as many do.
No need to guess where I'm coming from. I already explained that.
Is that the reason for your non-response to my initial query?
Well, I'm very grateful for your efforts when you have been enthusiastic and I hope you'll participate if we do have one this December. The reason for the poll as I already said is:
I'm just not sure whether there's enough [interest] to sustain two of these a year.
Yeah, I got that.
The 'reason' referred to in my post concerned your non-response to my initial query.
It seemed that the reason for that was due to your wrong belief that: Quoting Baden
You lost interest yourself several times and talked the competition down
I'm glad that, after my clarification, you now seem to understand.
Levels of interest, enthusiasm and participation depend on other levels...
We'll see.
I've taken the poll down. I realized I would vote "once a year" is best myself. So, I don't think I'll organize it this winter. If someone else in the mod team wants to take the reins on the admin side of this for December, please do.
I think I've come to the conclusion I have enough interest to do this once a year, partly because I think there's diminishing returns in engagement if we do it twice a year.
Headline in today's Guardian: "‘Dangerously out-of-control cow’ tramples elderly man in Wales"
As an elderly man myself, I understand how serious cow-trampling can be. What I do not understand here is the concept of an "out of control cow". When are cows ever "in control"?
“The cow had escaped from Whitland Mart, and made its way to the centre of the village. It came across an elderly man in North Road, where it attacked and trampled him, causing serious injury."
Sounds like a plan to me, not some whacked out crazy cow thing. Locked up cow breaks for freedom and said that anybody who gets in her way will get run over. Efforts were made to help the cow regain "control" but the angry bovine was not interested.
So they shot her--another police killing of the oppressed.
My advice to those confronted by the Bovine Liberation Movement:
"Get out of the way if you can't lend a hand for the times they are a changin."
universenessNovember 19, 2022 at 22:17#7575960 likes
universenessNovember 20, 2022 at 09:02#7576270 likes
Reply to 180 Proof
In fact, knowing my luck, and today's society, and the fact she already thinks I'm a pervy naturalist/naturist, and that she is very attractive and in her mid 30's and I am 58.
When I tell her I am 'an atomist', she will hear anatomist and make some accusation about my pervy interest in her body parts. :blush: :lol:
Thankfully I am good friends with her very large, very strong husband, who seems to see me as some kind of wise person who he must respect. I think she keeps accusing me of such 'pervy' stuff due to some annoyance with her husbands, at times over the top and unwarranted deference towards me.
universenessNovember 20, 2022 at 09:55#7576300 likes
In the distant future, will this be considered the true beginning of the human species becoming interplanetary?
From Wiki: Artemis 1, is an ongoing uncrewed Moon-orbiting mission, the first spaceflight in NASA's Artemis program. It is the first integrated flight test of the Orion spacecraft and Space Launch System rocket. Artemis 1 was successfully launched from Kennedy Space Center on 16 November 2022 at 01:47:44 EST (06:47:44 UTC). Its main objective is to test the Orion spacecraft, especially its heat shield, in preparation for subsequent Artemis missions. These missions will seek to re-establish a human presence on the Moon and demonstrate technologies and business approaches needed for future scientific studies, including exploration of Mars.
Just to let everyone know of the superiority of the American health care system, I made an appointment at the dermatologist on Tuesday to be seen on Thursday and the lady removed a cyst from my temple.
Next time go to Dr Pimple Popper and tell her you want some of the youtube profits.
Reply to universeness When we start building either (A) AI-automated manufacturing (self-replicating) facilities on asteroids, moons, planets and/or (B) O'Neil cyclinder-like mega-systems (i.e. cities) inside hollowed-out asteroids for permanent space habitats, I think only then will we be on our way to becoming an "interplanetary" – non-planetary, extra-terrestrial – species. We're still stuck in a 1950s-60s paradigm, but there are cracks appearing in that old egg (e.g. lunar & Martian "smart" rovers, cometary rendezvous, HST & JWST, sun & outer solar system probes like Cassini, a developing private space industry, etc) which may hatch something significant in our lifetime.
Reply to universeness Sounds like her kink may be a thing for an older perv. In my case once I hit 50 (I'm 59 now), twenty-thirtysomething women have shown more 'interest' in me than it seems they had a couple of decades ago. Older sapiosexual (naturalist-atomist) perv I am & proud of it! :yum: :up:
Sounds like her kink may be a thing for an older perv. In my case once I hit 50 (I'm 59 now), twenty-thirtysomething women have shown more 'interest' in me than it seems they had a couple of decades ago. Older sapiosexual (naturalist-atomist) perv I am & proud of it! :yum: :up:
None. Tapping that has almost always been short-term win-win fun. :smirk:
universenessNovember 20, 2022 at 16:30#7576680 likes
Reply to 180 Proof
Oh I agree we are still space babies or even space amoebas, but I just wonder if future historians will cite Artemis 1 as a very significant beginning. I also wonder what all the conspiracy dimwits that claimed the moon landings were fake, will say, when we actually return and live and work there?
twenty-thirtysomething women have shown more 'interest' in me than it seems they had a couple of decades ago. Older sapiosexual (naturalist-atomist) perv I am & proud of it!
Can't say I get much attention from twenty or thirty something women. You must be prettier at 59 than I at 58.
I am not attracted to women my age or older. So, I have to settle mostly for the good beers and good cheers nowadays, which is ......... good enough!
I think I've come to the conclusion I have enough interest to do this once a year, partly because I think there's diminishing returns in engagement if we do it twice a year...
Thanks to @Caldwell for continuing the discussion with update in the thread,
'Short Story Competition Discussion June 2022':
Caldwell:After confirming with Baden, we will skip the short story this December; which I think is better -- we will save the best for the window in the spring-summer time.
I am not attracted to women my age or older. So, I have to settle mostly for the good beers and good cheers nowadays, which is ......... good enough!
:up:
Btw, why some folks don't want the Moon Landings to have happened is still a (psychiatric) mystery to me. You'd have be wholly ignorant or gullible enough to believe that all Cold War adversaries who tracked (with radars, eavesdropping satellites & telescopes) and recorded all six Apollo missions to the Moon 1969-1972 were collectively in on "the hoax" and agreed to cover it up together in order to declare the USA "winner of the space race." Stupid is as stupid does, I guess; Dunning-Kruger flat earthers have Youtube channels too. :sparkle: :eyes:
universenessNovember 21, 2022 at 09:19#7578170 likes
Reply to 180 Proof
Yeah, It seems you really can fool some of the people all of the time, and that's why the conspiracy theorists continue to get money from the gullible.
unenlightenedNovember 21, 2022 at 13:49#7578340 likes
Reply to Bitter Crank I used to keep a cow, and there are two rules in the safety manual.
1. Don't stand between the horns and the wall.
2. don't lie down between the hooves and the floor.
You'd think old men in rural areas would know this stuff. "Out of control" is an euphemism for 'on heat', or else excessive use of the cattle prod. Either way the slaughter is a crime against bovinity, and I will be complaining to my MP about it.
You might be surprised how things change as you tip-toe into old age. :cool:
I will not tiptoe! I like surprises, especially if they 'take my breath away.' I am however quite shallow when it comes to physical attraction. I like what I like and that's it. I agree however that having good female friends, my age or older is of great benefit. I really like my own cave however and I love my own company, but I do need, very much, to have the companionship/friendship/association of others.
I hope none of that changes as I get older. I have witnessed in older relatives, that for some, life can change dramatically, very quickly, mentally and/or physically, as you get older.
I have no idea, how I would react to major drops in the quality of my life.
I have witnessed the destruction that can happen to people, through illness, unfortunate happenstance, self-destructive behaviour, ignorance, unjust treatment etc but I have also witnessed those with a robust health in their 80's and even 90's, positive happenstance, sustained personal effort to behave in selfless ways, attempts to always be learning, and fantastic support of your life from family, friends and even from 'society.'
My own personal measure/experience is that, overall, balancing the positive and the negative, so far, it's been a wonderful life!
Thanks to Caldwell for continuing the discussion with update in the thread,
'Short Story Competition Discussion June 2022':
After confirming with Baden, we will skip the short story this December; which I think is better -- we will save the best for the window in the spring-summer time.
— Caldwell
A decision taken then to cancel and not to be overturned.
Just one last thing re levels of interest.
I noted that the highest level was during what I now call 'Jamal's Winning Contest' ( Competition2).
Perhaps it was the juiciness of the Plum Pie but I think it was @Jamal's engaging and sustained interest in all entries not just his own which had 124 replies. This brought everyone together.
The time and energy to fully participate is not something everyone wants to or can do.
When it happens there is a great sense of achievement and in my case, learning. Thanks to all.
Anything coming after that would seem less. But really wasn't in comparison to Comp1.
This gauging levels of participation before the event reminds me of the angst before the first TPF revival of the Short Story Competition. Thanks to the perseverance of people like @180 Proof, it happened.
The decision taken is based on Baden's belief that doing it once a year makes more sense; apparently, it will be fresher that way.
I doubt it will be any fresher...
...unless in the meantime efforts are made for improved organisation and voting system.
And perhaps a 'Spring Forward' support by the likes of Jamal and co.
Or the prevention of any conflict of interest by having an objective host with no entry.
Looking at the stories in themselves and not any perceived intentions of an author.
I've said more than I intended.
It would have been good if Baden had started a new pinned thread to discuss Short Story 4 and its cancellation. Better than skirting around in the nonsense of Shoutbox.
I note and wonder at the silence of other mods who would usually participate or support. @Benkei@Hanover@Michael - what's up?
A disappointing decision but hey... worse things happen at sea...or at railway stations...
Roy Keane has condemned Fifa’s decision to allow the World Cup to be hosted in Qatar, in view of the country’s human rights record and its treatment of migrant workers and LGBTQ+ people.
Speaking during ITV’s live coverage of Argentina v Saudi Arabia on Tuesday, the former Manchester United and Republic of Ireland midfielder summed up the ethical concerns felt by many regarding the controversial tournament. Same-sex relationships are illegal in Qatar, while thousands of workers are alleged to have died during the construction of the tournament stadiums and infrastructure
[...]
The issue came to a head on Monday when seven countries that had planned for their captains to wear the armbands in Qatar, to champion inclusivity, backed down when faced with the threat of sporting sanctions from Fifa.
More than a few stories there worth the telling or showing, if allowed...
Such balls.
Reply to Baden I'm ambivalent on the sports embargo concept. If we wish to elevate play on the field to international diplomacy, we can't look upon a snub as a trivial gesture, but as an official declaration we don't wish to interact with that nation. Dealing with unseemly folks is unfortunately the path to some degree of harmony. Our table will get smaller and smaller if we choose only the worthy to join us.
On the hand, if it's just a stupid game of kicking a ball around, then who cares. That's sort of where I am on it. It's not like real football.
I'm ambivalent on the sports embargo concept. If we wish to elevate play on the field to international diplomacy, we can't look upon a snub as a trivial gesture, but as an official declaration we don't wish to interact with that nation. Dealing with unseemly folks is unfortunately the path to some degree of harmony. Our table will get smaller and smaller if we choose only the worthy to join us.
It's complicated. But almost everyone has a line. It might be Qatar. It might be Russia. It might be N. Korea. The more honest debate imo is where we draw the line and why, not if we draw a line. But I'm not too interested in getting into it. I wouldn't be watching the World Cup regardless.
On the hand, if it's just a stupid game of kicking a ball around, then who cares. That's sort of where I am on it. It's not like real football.
This is true. Real Football has the all-important Knock People Down and Stomp on Them Rules that allow players to, well, knock people down and stomp on them. So-called "football" in other nations only allows that among spectators.
universenessNovember 22, 2022 at 20:55#7581080 likes
Reply to Baden So an older gentleman is suffering from an emergency cardiological situation only to be intercepted by a happy go lucky volume of Moby Dick.
It's an absurd interaction to be sure, but a bit too avant garde for me.
So an older gentleman is suffering from an emergency cardiological situation only to be intercepted by a happy go lucky volume of Moby Dick.
I think it's saying that instead of defining objective reality in terms of an inaccessible and ungraspable beyond, phenomenologists would argue that the right place to locate objectivity is in, rather than beyond, the appearing world. The co-created meaning of Melville's text and greeting is an act of intersubjective collaboration which is situated alongside faith as an embodied form of crack pipe smoking nominalism. It's a hilarious drawing.
unenlightenedNovember 23, 2022 at 08:55#7582140 likes
Reply to jorndoe A bit of good news -ish. photosynthesis reducing the CO2 levels in the ocean and potentially allowing more absorption from the atmosphere as currents circulate.
universenessNovember 23, 2022 at 10:35#7582290 likes
Reply to T Clark
If I am being honest, I am not really into sports but just based on FYI, I did some 'bing' searching and:
[b]In 1823, a school in Rugby, England created a modified version of football, the precursor to soccer and American football. In 1871, the Rugby Football Union was formed, and in 1886, the International Rugby Football Board established some rules for the sport. Rugby was recognized as a professional sport in 1995.
Rugby is similar to soccer and American football, as it is played on a grass field with a goal on each end. It begins with a kick-off, and the ball can be passed only laterally or backwards. The ball can be kicked, and tackling is permitted. Scoring is called a “try” and is executed much like a touchdown. Rugby sevens is another form of rugby in which each team has seven players.[/b]
and:
[b]The most popular version of rugby is Rugby Union with teams of 15 players on the field and 8 substitutes.
Rugby League has 13 players and 4 substitutes.
Rugby Sevens, an Olympic sport, has 7 players and 3 substitutes (with 5 players on the bench).
Other variants of rugby have different team numbers.
Here is a breakdown of team numbers by the type of rugby:
Governing Body Name Field Subs
World Rugby Rugby Union 15 8
World Rugby Sevens 7 3 *
World Rugby Rugby 10s 10 5
International Rugby League Board Rugby League 13 4
International Rugby League Board Rugby League Nines 9 4
International Rugby League Board Rugby League Sevens 7 5
Federation of International Touch Touch Rugby 6 unlimited
French Rugby Federation Touch Rugby (France) 5 5
International Wheelchair Rugby Federation Wheelchair Rugby 4 8
Informal Beach Rugby 4 to 7* 3 to 7*[/b]
I think the rules of play differ quite a bit between American football and Rugby union but there are many similarities as well.
There is now a lot of discussions on the long-term brain damage happening to rugby players in the UK. Perhaps they will all end up wearing crash helmets and padding as well but even if they do, many American football players regularly suffer long term physical damage, do they not?
The number of British football/soccer players, who end up with long-term brain damage due to heading the ball, is also far too high.
Reply to Baden So the book just goes around and says stupid things? Maybe work on it saying smart things that are limited to book smarts but not street smarts. Now that my friend would be hilarious. I'm spitting shit up laughing at how that might play out, especially in the bedroom.
Get this: it's a textbook copulation, but wholly unsatisfying to either volume of the Joy of Sex. Hahaha!
Reason I was asking is that I read that the Olympics included 15-player Rugby in the early 1900s then stopped. More recently they added 7-player as a new sport.
universenessNovember 23, 2022 at 19:09#7583510 likes
Reply to T Clark
Yes, I think that's correct, for the summer Olympics anyway.
Rugby Union - 15 players per team - has been featured on the Olympic programme four times: in 1900, 1908, 1920 and 1924. In Rio in 2016, Rugby Sevens made its first appearance at the summer Olympics.
In Rio in 2016, Rugby Sevens made its first appearance at the summer Olympics
It's interesting the sport events in the Olympics that have appeared, been dropped, and perhaps one or two that no one seems to know if they occurred. Back in the 1950s in college I climbed rope for speed and worked the rings. Rope climbing in the Olympics disappeared before the 1936 games and a fair amount is known about it, but there were two rings events: stationary rings and flying rings, and I did some of both. The former exist in modern Games, but no one seems to know if flying rings - in the technical sense - was ever part of the Games. References to "flying rings" could have meant either one. The flying kind was a lot more dangerous, like circus acts with no nets. I didn't stick with it long.
universenessNovember 25, 2022 at 13:21#7586420 likes
Reply to jgill
Yeah, going right back to the Greeks, a lot of events have come and gone, no more chariot racing!
You might get a giggle at this one:
[b]"Art competitions formed part of the modern Olympic Games during its early years, from 1912 to 1948. The competitions were part of the original intention of the Olympic Movement's founder, Pierre de Frédy, Baron de Coubertin. Medals were awarded for works of art inspired by sport, divided into five categories: architecture, literature, music, painting, and sculpture.
The juried art competitions were abandoned in 1954 because artists were considered to be professionals, while Olympic athletes were required to be amateurs. Since 1956, the Olympic cultural programme has taken their place".[/b]
Did they do this art in a stadium? How long did they get? (Some of my oil paintings, take me months!) Were there any spectators? and if there were, would they not be bored stiff?
javi2541997November 25, 2022 at 19:15#7586930 likes
I want to share this picture of the sunset I took a few hours ago.
@Michael An embarrassing result for the non-country of England.
When you finish a game 0-0, how can feel you've accomplished anything more than you would have if you had just sat around on the couch all day? It was 0-0 before they even went out there. I scored the same amount as both teams combined and I was petting my cat.
Maybe they should make the goal bigger and the ball smaller.
Pic of my Chanakumis tree I just put up.
I could have stood up to remove my feet from the picture, but I wanted to show I was on the couch scoring as many goals as England and the US just scored in the World Cup.
Reply to Hanover Apparently the loser had to keep James Cordon so there was a gentleman's agreement to draw, that way he can be left out in the middle of the Atlantic.
The only things I own are a mattress and a David Hasselhoff calendar.
There are a few Baywatch calendars I might have chosen over the Hoff's, but to each his own.
Noble DustNovember 27, 2022 at 07:31#7588600 likes
Forum's become pretty quiet, no? Used to be threads on the first page were from 24 hours ago or so. Now the oldest thread on the home page is 9 days old. I assume the invite only model is to blame. Seems like death by suicide.
Used to be threads on the first page were from 24 hours ago or so.
I don't remember that, but when do you mean exactly? I increased the number of discussions per page a while ago so that could account for it.
There are fourteen discussions on the main page that have been active in the past 24 hours, four in the Lounge. Is that relatively inactive? I don't know.
Noble DustNovember 27, 2022 at 07:54#7588630 likes
There are fourteen discussions on the main page that have been active in the past 24 hours, four in the Lounge. Is that relatively inactive? I don't know.
It feels more inactive than in the past, yes.
javi2541997November 27, 2022 at 07:57#7588640 likes
I feel the same. It is weird that my thread - I started yesterday - only got an answer from 180 Proof when I used to receive a big participation from all the members. It is like most of them are missed. For example: @Agent Smith takes part in all of the threads and is very active. When he is not around, I feel the site more silent.
I feel the same. It is weird that my thread - I started yesterday - only got an answer from 180 Proof when I used to receive a big participation from all the members
There are other factors. Time of the week, subject matter, obscurity or difficulty. In this case, the title appears to be a bad translation, and that could put people off.
"German philosophy lacks of escape valve". Is this meant to be saying "German philosophy lacks an escape valve"?
And the OP is basically just a quotation. That's rarely going to produce much participation.
The Perseverance rover landed in Jezero crater, Mars in February 2021. We used the Scanning Habitable Environments with Raman and Luminescence for Organics and Chemicals (SHERLOC) instrument to perform deep ultraviolet Raman and fluorescence spectroscopy of three rocks within the crater. We identify evidence for two distinct ancient aqueous environments at different times. Reactions with liquid water formed carbonates in an olivine-rich igneous rock. A sulfate-perchlorate mixture is present in the rocks, probably formed by later modifications of the rocks by brine. Fluorescence signatures consistent with aromatic organic compounds occur throughout these rocks, preserved in minerals related to both aqueous environments.
javi2541997November 27, 2022 at 08:40#7588730 likes
"German philosophy lacks of escape valve". Is this meant to be saying "German philosophy lacks an escape valve"?
Yes, I tried to translate it into English with my own interpretation but it wasn't so effective I see :sweat:
Nevertheless, I always translate the discussions I started because (obviously) I firstly think on the subject in Spanish and then, I do my best into explaining it in English. Literally most of them always had good results and participations except this one. To be honest, I thought: "these guys no longer want to discuss Yukio Mishima stuff with anymore" :lol:
Forum's become pretty quiet, no? Used to be threads on the first page were from 24 hours ago or so. Now the oldest thread on the home page is 9 days old. I assume the invite only model is to blame. Seems like death by suicide.
I think it goes in cycles. A month ago there were a lot of threads I wanted to participate in. Now there aren't. I also find myself passing on threads where I don't have much to offer or where I think my opinion might not fit in.
When it gets a little slow, I start to think I should start a thread of my own. Maybe I will.
Reply to Noble DustReply to T Clark Let it be (cue the Beatles). It's perfectly normal for there to be a time when our fecund brains need to rest. All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone, Blaise said. So true. If Putin had been able to sit still by himself in the Kremlin, a great deal of trouble in Ukraine could have been avoided.
The urgent authorship of threads just to avoid emptiness is clearly hazardous. Who knows what invasion, what genocide, what famine, what disruption of the supply chain will be the result?
Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting.
If the University of Georgia loses the national championship, I'm going to the grocery store and I'll knock over the green bean display, then I'll go to the pharmacy and I'll throw the candy bars on the floor, and then I'll call my wife to come get me out of jail.
That'll teach those fuckers not to lose next time.
In Belgium they rioted and attacked the police in response to their World Cup loss to Morocco.
So it's just a ball being kicked around a field, or is it more than that? Surely they can find a higher god to worship.
And in so many places around the world they push football as the great equalizer, the bringer of peace, the base for a good healthy life.
22 guys running around a field trying to murder a ball by kicking it to death, then putting it into a net, might seem harmless to some. But them the hot sweaty bodies all hug and slap each other on the ass i joyous celebration, of creating losers of the other group of sweaty bodies who are lying around crying.
Then the pilgrims of the groups playing said "game" go and beat the shit out of each other like someone has just shit on one of their sacred grounds.
Sorry but i can think of thousands of better ways to spend 90 minutes of my life.
Metaphysician UndercoverNovember 28, 2022 at 01:59#7590060 likes
We seem to have lost all the bona fide physicists, they make interesting discussion. I suppose us crack pot philosophers drove them away.
I've commented on this. There's no one around - or at least no one who admits being around - to give a professional eye to the modern physics jargon bubbling away on the forum. Apokrisis is a biophysicist, I think, but he hasn't posted in a month. Out behind the shed breaking symmetries, I suppose. :cool:
As always, inattentive Minnesotans feel the first cold snap and follow the urge to walk on water. Then they fall through the thin layer of ice and, often enough, drown.
"Inattentive" because ever since radio and television were invented, announcers warn about thin ice repeatedly every fall, along with reports of cold, wet, and sometimes dead children and adults being pulled out of the water. Particularly annoying inattentive Minnesotans dash out onto the new ice on snowmobiles, where--when they go through the thin ice--they sink into deep water. Cold, deep, dark, dangerous water from which they generally do not return alive.
Question: Is this phenomenon beneficial to the gene pool? If so, should it be discouraged?
Question: Is this phenomenon beneficial to the gene pool? If so, should it be discouraged?
I was once asked by a parent why I had done nothing about the kids hitting each other in the nuts at school. I nearly gave that as an answer. I really hoped that her darling son got serious injured because he was the one that started the stupidity.
I was surprised to see how much of the big island of Hawaii has a significant risk from the eruption of Moana Loa. The grey area to the north has a low risk.
Hello all. I do not know if this is known here but in case it isn't, and unless I am mistaken, I believe long time user csalisbury passed away on the 7th of december 2021.
Hello all. I do not know if this is known here but in case it isn't, and unless I am mistaken, I believe long time user csalisbury passed away on the 7th of december 2021.
I feel sad knowing. He was from the old PF. :flower:
used to live in the Appalachians near a tourist spot. Every summer a hiker or two would walk right off the side of a mountain and die. Why?
Because falling from high places causes death. It has to do with the body's lack of elasticity. A ball will bounce. A body will bounce some, but mostly it will crush and get stabbed up with trees and then the person will become unresponsive.
I thought you worked at an ER and would have known this.
Metaphysician UndercoverNovember 30, 2022 at 14:02#7595300 likes
Reply to Hanover There is a judgement which we like to make, between accident, suicide, and murder. The judgement might be easy for anyone present, but not so easy for those not present.
The judgement might be easy for anyone present, but not so easy for those not present.
You may not be American, so I'll judge you less harshly because you may be in the right where you are, but whenever someone questions my judgement in the US, I tell them it's judgment, not judgement.
That's how I judge people. Always have. Always will.
Jack CumminsNovember 30, 2022 at 22:25#7595960 likes
@Baden and everyone else,
It has occurred to me that it is approaching December, so I am wondering if there are any plans or thoughts about the winter short story competition.
It's rescheduled until next summer. We're going to try to do it once a year now. We talked about it a few pages back in the shoutbox. Feel free to take a look.
Reply to Hanover It's been FIVE HOURS since I posted one of my best puns--based on your post to Metaphysician Undercover. Your indifference leaves me even more unsent and resentful.
It's been FIVE HOURS since I posted one of my best puns--based on your post to Metaphysician Undercover. Your indifference leaves me even more unsent and resentful.
Much like when one first looks out at a sunset at the Grand Canyon, a state of awe overwhelms, a single tear rolls down the cheek, and the purest silence follows.
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 00:32#7596260 likes
Reply to Baden
Okay, that makes sense because 6 months comes round so quickly. I will look back a few pages because I haven't been reading the forum so much lately because I am looking for new accommodation because the property is being repossessed and everyone is going to be evicted. That includes the children upstairs, including the tall 11 year old girl who starred in your story, who is now 12 and even taller.
You may not be American, so I'll judge you less harshly because you may be in the right where you are, but whenever someone questions my judgement in the US, I tell them it's judgment, not judgement.
I believe that "judgment" can only be claimed to be the correct spelling in the case of a legal judgment. Outside the court we have the freedom to make our own judgements on such matters. I suppose you could put me on trial though, then I think I'd have to adhere to the judgment of the court, to avoid punishment. Fucking lawyers, think they have the power to cast their spells on everyone.
I'm sorry to hear that Jack. Hope you all find new and acceptable accommodation quickly. :pray:
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 14:45#7597670 likes
Reply to Tom StormReply to Baden Thank you, and I am sure that so many are having problems, as I read that about a million people in the UK are under threat of eviction. We need philosophy to help keep a sense of 'sanity' and what I do find is that the raw existential aspects of life throw a different perspective, as a way of thinking about what is important and what is mere philosophy theory.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 15:31#7597760 likes
Reply to Jack Cummins
F****** B****** profiteering landlords! :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:
Why are we putting up with this SHIT?
If I had the power Jack, I would make free high-quality housing, a human right from cradle to grave.
NURTURE PEOPLE NOT PROFIT!
I'm away to sharpen my pitchfork a little more!
Maybe that's why they won't tell me where your landlord lives. :rage:
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 15:47#7597790 likes
Reply to universeness
I don't know why we have to put up with so much.I live in London and as far as I know my landlord has gone off to Pakistan. Personally, I am in touch with advice organisations, with people who are trying to help, but the way I see it is that so many are being plunged into hard times. As far as my impression of England is that things were becoming so much harder prior to the pandemic. In the aftermath, so much has become tougher, with so much government legislation being pushed through silently.
I try not to be completely negative and but into conspiracy theories but I do wonder what is going on. There has always been the division between first and third world countries, in terms of life quality but I do wonder what is coming as the divide between the rich and the poor may become more exaggerated in the developed countries. Life, as we know it, is changing through technology, economics and politics in so many ways and it is hard to be aware of all of the many visible and hidden aspects which may impact on human living in an uncertain future.
F****** B****** profiteering landlords! :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:
Why are we putting up with this SHIT?
If I had the power Jack, I would make free high-quality housing, a human right from cradle to grave.
NURTURE PEOPLE NOT PROFIT!
I'm away to sharpen my pitchfork a little more!
Maybe that's why they won't tell me where your landlord lives. :rage:
So I read Jack's email as indicating he was being evicted due to a repossession, which could mean (and we both have insufficient information here), the bank is foreclosing on the property due to default of the mortgage and taking back (i.e. repossessing) the property. That would mean the landlord is losing the property, which would mean it is the landlord in financial distress, which somewhat contradicts your argument related to unfair profiteering by landlords. That is, not all landlords make significant profits and whatever housing crisis there may be, it's hardly up to property owners to resolve that.
This isn't to say that Jack's plight doesn't suck. It's just to say you've jumped to conclusions and placed the blame on someone who might have been a perfectly fine landlord who just couldn't maintain the property. I too could be wrong, and maybe his landlord is a slumlord piece of shit, but that's hardly something I can conclude from reading these posts.
And, no, I've never been a landlord. I'm just trying to offer a fair and balanced assessment here.
It will be a while before I finish reading Locke's Essay a second time through, I'm about halfway through but am reading very slowly, trouble focusing.
I was curious if anyone here would be interested in participating on a book-discussion thread about Locke's Essay. I think it is marvelous and perhaps overlooked too frequently.
This thread would cover say, 4 or 5 chapters, but I was curious to see if there are enough people to merit the effort.
Yeah, my attention ebbs and flows seasonally, and now I'm hitting a rough patch.
In any case thanks for the reply. :up:
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 16:17#7597900 likes
Reply to frank
I think that I would probably rather be in the US rather than America. So much is hidden in the UK, under the guise of policies. Britain is probably not great any longer. So many people seem to be able to play with loopholes in the law and I wonder is this more unique to Britain or an aspect of human life in general. Have human beings become the masters of manipulation?
In the US they don't evict tenants when rental property goes into foreclosure.
You'd have to look up the law that governs the particular state. Georgia, for example: https://georgettemillerlaw.com/happens-renters-property-foreclosed/
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 16:22#7597920 likes
Reply to Jack Cummins
Well, I hope we are all watching very carefully and are not basing our lives totally on the seemingly very apt 'Well I'm alright Jack!'
I am glad you are in touch with local 'organisations,' what about your local councillors and your local MP. Have you been in contact with them?
Reply to Jack Cummins I'm not trying to be unsympathetic because it truly sucks to be evicted from your home and have to face finding a new place. I'm just not clear really where things went wrong here. If your landlord was in financial distress for whatever reason (increased costs to maintain the units or any variety of personal issues affecting him) and he couldn't pay his loan to his bank, then it's the bank taking your property. Your rights after foreclosure would be dictated by whatever UK laws says and it's possible the situation of foreclosure is contemplated in the lease and it explains what happens in that instance.
I am glad you are in touch with local 'organisations,' what about your local councillors and your local MP. Have you been in contact with them?
What do you expect the end result to be from that fight? That he'll be granted the right to live there forever, or, do you suspect that at best he'll be afforded additional time and perhaps some limited compensation? I ask that because if the eventuality is that he will no longer live there, then instead of fighting for something that will never happen, maybe start looking for a new place and trying to receive whatever accommodation possible to make the transition as pain free as possible.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 16:28#7597960 likes
I'm just trying to offer a fair and balanced assessment here.
Always a wise way to go. It's important that I plunge my pitchfork into the correct target.
B****** nefarious landlord, banker, billionaire, king or messiah, I don't mind.
I don't even mind if you have a better way, that means I can leave my pitchfork where it is.
BUT, we can't just watch others suffer unfairly, for ever, and not try to do something to help them!
Do you agree?
You'd have to look up the law that governs the particular state. Georgia, for example:
Maybe it's just where I am. I don't think it's against the law to evict, it's just that renters are notorious for wrecking rental property, so where there are good tenants in place, they don't want to lose them and start over with a new batch of psychopaths.
BUT, we can't just watch others suffer unfairly, for ever, and not try to do something to help them!
Do you agree?
The world is unfair, so that's a hell of a battle. If there is a housing issue that needs to be addressed, that's the government's role, not just dropping the problem on the landlords who can't pay their mortgage or the banks that can't collect their payments.
We also really haven't been informed of the great injustice as much as the great inconvenience. That is, if the net result is that Jack is going to have to haul his shit to somewhere new and he'll lose a few good neighbors he's grown fond of, that's a bad weekend. If it's bigger than that and we're looking at temporary housing or homelessness, then that's something more to consider.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 16:37#7598050 likes
I ask that because if the eventuality is that he will no longer live there, then instead of fighting for something that will never happen, maybe start looking for a new place and trying to receive whatever accommodation possible to make the transition as pain free as possible.
I would do both, I would do everything and find out everything I could, as it would be about everyone in similar situations, not just about me. That's how campaigns and movements for change happen, a revulsion towards the current system. One voice can become a multitude very quickly if people are pissed off enough with what's going on. Even the totalitarian pressured Chinese and the theistically abused Iranians have demonstrated feelings such as 'you have pushed us this far, DON'T push us any further!'
javi2541997December 01, 2022 at 16:55#7598110 likes
We are already in the last month of the year.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 16:59#7598130 likes
If there is a housing issue that needs to be addressed, that's the government's role, not just dropping the problem on the landlords who can't pay their mortgage or the banks that can't collect their payments.
The people elect the government in the UK and the people tolerate the nefarious behaviour of the rich, no matter what titles they use from investor/entrepeneur/landlord/banker/gangster or bishop.
The problem lies with the capitalist money trick. People are treated as objects in such a vile system.
I agree that we need to identify the causes and culprits correctly but don't try to suggest that rich landlords and bankers are having it tough to by conflating them with the very few 'landlords' who are genuinely having a tough time because the banks actually own all their properties.
I have little sympathy for those who intended to live of the backs of the poor but failed to do so successfully.
We also really haven't been informed of the great injustice as much as the great inconvenience. That is, if the net result is that Jack is going to have to haul his shit to somewhere new and he'll lose a few good neighbors he's grown fond of, that's a bad weekend. If it's bigger than that and we're looking at temporary housing or homelessness, then that's something more to consider.
As Jack has already suggested, there are more and more people in this situation, so it very much is 'bigger than that.' It does not sound like Jack is merely being inconvenienced.
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 17:00#7598150 likes
Reply to Hanover
I am not wishing to bombard the forum with my personal issues. I guess the reason why I am mentioning it at all is because I do see the issues raised as being connected to the state of the times. Having worked as a volunteer advice worker at one stage in my life I would have probably never urged anyone to sign the insubstantial contract which I signed. I only signed it because I needed to find accommodation in the midst of lockdown.
As far as British politics is concerned the underlying problem may be of rogue landlords. I read that the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is trying to address this. Taking this beyond my personal issues, I wonder how this stands with other countries. Issues of accommodation, standards of living and poverty may be variable, with an apparent division between third and first world countries.
So, I try to think about the practical, personal and political aspects in the fullest possible scope. I am trying to cope with the dramas which I encounter practically and on an existential level.i can't speak to the official landlord because he has disappeared in Pakistan. I am trying to get legal advice and trying to find accommodation, which is not easy when so many are looking.
The balance between the practical and the philosophical one is a complex area. So, I am trying to juggle both carefully. To be a philosopher on the streets or a happy fool living in luxury may be a complex area, going back to the quest and trials of many, including Socrates.
.
.
..
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 17:23#7598230 likes
I try not to be completely negative and but into conspiracy theories but I do wonder what is going on. There has always been the division between first and third world countries, in terms of life quality but I do wonder what is coming as the divide between the rich and the poor may become more exaggerated in the developed countries.
I live in a third world country, and believe me the difference is still just as big as it was before. As things fall apart in England so do they here.
Prices over the last 30 years have gone up by an incredible amount. Something that cost a dollar then now cost about $130.00 on average. And if that itself does not seem like a lot, the wages are not going up at anywhere the same speed. And the same is happening here with the difference between rich and poor, the divide is getting bigger.
I left England back in '75 and I am glad I did. I cannot imagine what the people are going to live like this winter. I don't have to worry about heating at least.
Taking this beyond my personal issues, I wonder how this stands with other countries. Issues of accommodation, standards of living and poverty may be variable, with an apparent division between third and first world countries.
Homelessness and housing insecurity are prominent issues in Australia too. Rents are high and properties are difficult to obtain. There are some protections here. You can only be evicted by a government tribunal, not by any landlord. The landlord needs to demonstrate why you must go and tribunals sometimes side with renters. Generally even if the landlord loses their own property, renters retain some rights and are given time, perhaps months, to find somewhere else. You can argue your case at the tribunal. These protections were created by Labor governments. It's fair to say that our right wing party generally sides with property owners and businesses.
As Jack has already suggested, there are more and more people in this situation, so it very much is 'bigger than that.' It does not sound like Jack is merely being inconvenienced.
For all sorts of information on homelessness in the US, see: https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/homelessness-statistics/#:~:text=Percentage%2Dwise%3A%200.2%25%20of,in%20a%20state%20of%20homelessness.
0.2% of the population is homeless and of those 38.6% are disabled, 25% suffer from mental illness, 38% are alcoholics, and 26% abuse drugs.
Obviously there is overlap in those groups, but consistent with what is generally observed: The homeless rate is very low and the majority suffer from a mental, physical, or addiction issue that results in their not obtaining assistance.
It's a very serious problem if you are one of those impacted, and if it's something you feel passionately about, it's a worthy cause, but it's not evidence of a failed society or a need for major restructuring.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 19:29#7598730 likes
Reply to Hanover
Living on the street is often better than living in slums and disgusting and dangerous rented accommodation. There are lies, damn lies and then statistics!
Perhaps you should have a chat with some of the real people in the country you live in.
Those experiencing serious hardships as a direct result of living in money trick driven economies, within which personal profits are far more important than people, number a great deal more than the 0.2% your misleading stat suggests.
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 01, 2022 at 19:39#7598800 likes
Hard to believe we are worse than the U.S for homelessness.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 19:46#7598870 likes
Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole
If a man lives in a shack in some hillbilly territory in the USA. Are they officially housed?
Homeless should include those who live in slums or rented accommodation not fit for pigs!
How many people are in the USA illegally and the authorities don't even know they exist?
The USA has at least 5 times the population of UK, so 0.2% of 330 million is more than 0.43% of 68 million. Stats are tricky little shit's that rarely impart useful or accurate truths.
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 20:18#7599160 likes
Reply to universeness
The 'I am alright Jack' may be as meaningless as 'as 'Jack in the Box' for trying to understand the unfolding of life. I certainly hope that whatever I experience in life aids my understanding of life and philosophies. Sometimes, theory and practice can see opposed. How much in philosophy understanding comes down to theory or the experience of the nitty gritty of what it means to be a human being, in human experiences, es
especially suffering?
The 'I am alright Jack' may be as meaningless as 'as 'Jack in the Box' for trying to understand the unfolding of life.
Sorry Jack, I don't follow your meaning. 'I'm alright Jack' refers to not caring about the situation of others. All that matters to such a person is that they and those they care most about are doing well.
A 'jack in the box,' is a pop-up toy with some push or windup control. What connection between the two am I missing?
Reply to Jack Cummins
I think it's both, they go hand in hand. Kierkegaard said that you can notice that there's nothing new in anything you go through. It's all happened to someone somewhere. It's happening to other people now.
There's melancholy in knowing this, but it's also a balm on a wound. If you get bored, that's when you should see yourself as unique, living out a story the world has never seen. This is also true, but sometimes the stress of that perspective is too much.
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 20:36#7599360 likes
Reply to universeness I am sorry if what I am saying is not making sense in terms of the logistics of philosophy. I think that I will log out for now, because I don't wish to write philosophical gobbblegook and try to learn what I can in life experience. As much as I value forum discussion the interplay between areas of discussion and living experiences may be vital, rather than philosophy becoming an abstract art of thinking.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 20:42#7599390 likes
Reply to Jack Cummins
It's probably just my inability to understand what you mean, rather than your inability to explain what you mean. No worries Jack!
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 20:42#7599400 likes
Reply to frank
It is interesting to think about placing any of our own individual experiences in the wider experience. Today, when I spoke to an advice worker about my housing problems she reassured me that some others may have gone through similar problems. It may be important to hold onto this, with a certain humility, as opposed to a sense of specialness in what may appear to be unique.
Noble DustDecember 01, 2022 at 20:51#7599490 likes
Reply to Jack Cummins
Adviser said: ''Some others may have gone through similar problems'' ?!
These are seriously scary times.
Best of luck, Jack. I hope you find something soon.
Almost a million private renters are at risk of being kicked out of their home this winter, and more will follow,” said Polly Neate, the chief executive of Shelter, which ran a survey suggesting 504,000 private renters had received or been threatened with an eviction notice in the last month, up 80% on the same period last year, and that 482,000 were behind on their rent. “Every day our emergency helpline advisers are taking gut-wrenching calls – from the mum who’s skipping meals to pay the rent, to the family terrified they will be spending Christmas in a grotty homeless hostel.”
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 01, 2022 at 21:04#7599600 likes
Reply to Shawn Oh, there you are. I was wondering about you. Glad you're still wallowing.
universenessDecember 01, 2022 at 21:29#7599760 likes
Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole
A great question that makes me sigh very deeply and run my hands over my face and struggle and conflict with myself about what I truly feel is my most honest answer.
I think I can only type a response like:
Sometimes I feel ...........
At other times I feel ...........
I despair of my fellows sometimes.
I think I understand why they do what they do and vote the way they vote ..... sometimes.
Sometimes I think there are too many politically ignorant idiots who are easily fooled too much of the time.
It certainly seemed easier in the past to know exactly who the enemy was.
Nowadays I seem to be arguing more with those who would have been my natural allies in the past and I can't concentrate enough on the more obviously nefarious b*******.
I tend to reach a point of despair and then choose to reject it and renew my hope and faith in my fellows.
I do think that overall, and in the fullness of time, we will become the united human race we can become and we will make a fair and just global human society.
We so desperately need youth to do better that we have, so don't give up on us. Please don't!
I suppose every older generation needs to make that plea to those coming up.
It's just that the progress that has been made was so hard fought.
Jack CumminsDecember 01, 2022 at 21:32#7599780 likes
Reply to universeness [reply="Sir2u;759is
That is absolutely fine, because unique experiences are part of life experiences. They may be glossed over at times in philosophy and it may not matter unless firm conclusions about what one should think or do are formulated on the basis of weak premises.The nature of human suffering and human needs may be a starting point for understanding of human needs, especially in relation to values in the fist and third world. It is hard to know where ways of life in the first and third world can be dichotomie or be compared in ongoing practical, social and political developments.
Noble DustDecember 01, 2022 at 21:38#7599800 likes
No, actually just practicing empathic mindfulness with a pig being the object of desire.
Pigs are humble.
Jack CumminsDecember 02, 2022 at 01:26#7600320 likes
Reply to Amity
Thank you, as it seems that you realise how difficult the time it is for some. At the moment, many in England and other developed nations have not got to the point of realising how it is becoming. I don't wish to be negative but at this point it seems to me that many are being brought to a brink or crossroads. The threat of homelessness is becoming an ongoing problem in England, and possibly other developed nations.
I am not sure to what extent it is about practical aspects of human living or about deeper aspects of philosophical possibilities. I am walking this tightrope of discovery and will try to do so with the best of my abilities, not knowing to what extent it is a personal quest or larger one. It takes me back to Gaugin's question, ''Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?' I don't wish to go into a state of inflated ego consciousness, about my own experience in this, but it a fine line between despair and the many faces of hope, as an existential journey.
Have you become more optimistic or pessimistic about politics as you've got older?
I've only just hit my 30s, and after being involved in politics through my 20s I'm disheartened that the people keep voting for such cruelty.
Beware of older folk who talk about the good old days. Politics was always shit. I found the 1980's dispiriting. I was in my 20's when Reagan and Thatcher helped unleash neoliberalism on the world and set us up for today's culture wars and depleted community sector. I've generally found those in their twenties now to be pretty good.
Beware of older folk who talk about the good old days
Absolutely! I'm 76; the more I read history, the clearer it is that "The good old days were terrible!" The rich and powerful have always led (or at least could lead) charmed lives and everybody else worked hard all day for little reward. Anyone who got out of line and tried to revolt generally got shot, beaten to a pulp, hanged, or at least kicked out of the country.
Nostalgia depends on a bad memory, and one should always ask "For whom were the good old days great?"
Reply to Bitter Crank Yep. There's an entire fetish going in talking about how shit everything is today and how great it was when men were men and everyone knew their place. Read the comments under clips from Johnny Carson or Dean Martin roasts. It's pretty awful. Typical comments go: 'You look at the world today and what we had then, there is every reason to shed tears.' Paradise lost, huh?
The best days are yet to come!
I think I would have made that statement, if I had been born at any time in the past.
I think I would be typing those same words for quite a while yet, if I was born in the near future.
Now that I'm in Spain, half way up a mountain with only a single speed bike or electric ladies' bike for transport, in a town whose online grocery and food delivery possibilities are primitive at best--things that I took for granted in Moscow--I find I've lost five kilos and my diet is simpler and healthier. It helps that I'm not drinking (as much).
Current favourites are egg fried rice with fried extra-firm tofu plus broccoli, vegetarian chili with chickpeas and garbanzo beans, Serrano ham and manchego cheese, a monthly Galician rib-eye steak--the best steak I can remember having--, and mackerel on buttered toast with ketchup.
"Planck's principle is the view that scientific change does not occur because individual scientists change their mind, but rather that successive generations of scientists have different views".
Or Tony Benn
"There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle. To be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up".
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 02, 2022 at 15:18#7601570 likes
:clap: I would recommend your local foodbank, night shelter, homeless unit or soup kitchen.
Jail's, or police stations/hospital A&E departments on a Friday or Saturday night would also be good for your survey of the dispossessed and/or disenfranchised.
You can chat to the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
universenessDecember 02, 2022 at 16:04#7601700 likes
"There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle. To be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up".
SOOOOOOOO nice to read someone in the beginnings of their 30's quoting Tony Benn.
One of the best most honest politicians there has ever been imo.
Although I think Tony did believe the human race was capable of producing a fair society.
He also said: The nature of the economic system should be a matter for public choice, and free market capitalism should not be accepted without any discussion of the rich variety of alternatives ... Unlike civil laws, economic laws are imposed on people with all the authority of immutable laws of nature. But the economy is created by people, supported by government intervention, regulation, statute and subsidy, and implemented in such a way that it gives substantial wealth and power to a privileged few, while the majority face a life of relentless work, stress and periodic financial insecurity.
Yeah, but Johnny Carson was great. Staying up to watch Carson was a rite of adulthood. I've liked other late night hosts - Letterman and Ferguson - but he has always been my favorite.
On the other hand, I have no great nostalgia for my youth.
Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole Both were reversed by subsequent conservative governments. The health scheme has been reintroduced and is normalised. University funding remains...problematic.
real nostalgia for childhood, when all was new and life felt like a constant adventure of discovery.
— Manuel
I just realized I spend most of my free time trying to recreate that feeling.
I read someone describing this impulse as a definitive Generation X and Baby Boomer retail motivation. Buying collectibles and old shit from their childhoods (toys, tools, signs, clothes) in order to rediscover their authentic self through nostalgia. Might explain why so many 50 year-old men collect Star Wars toys. :groan:
Might explain why so many 50 year-old men collect Star Wars toys.
A lot older than 50 in many cases. Here is a pic of Doctor Robert Price (68). A highly qualified theology expert who used to be a baptist minister. (now an atheist).
The guy with the white beard in the image below:
Have a look at the contents of the shelf behind him.
Anyone here into computer programming ie. "coding"? You can learn a lot about how everyday things we use function, and perhaps even a bit more...
"As I was coding this last project I realized I wasn't really coding a computer script... but manifesting my own life choices and logical processes in physical form to be used eternally long after I am gone. The errors/struggles/blocks I encountered were my own logical fallacies and shortcomings that manifest and "create runtime errors" in my own personal life and affairs, and so taught me to better detect and avoid them. In a sense, I was coding my own life, the final product was more than just a fancy script, it was a reflection of my own soul and innermost desires" ... eh something like that. You get the idea.
Anyway. I am considering creating a topic in the Lounge centered around web/server-side programming languages (PHP, Javascript ie. the "backbone" of most all web content and only skills I'd claim to be "rather proficient" at) to discuss philosophies and methods and of course give advice/instruction and how to get others started for free on their own local machine. Would anyone be interested in that? I imagine most here would be rather proficient/interested, once they get the hang of things, of course. And of course, like most things, there's always a few dollars to be made as well..
I know. Sad. As if the films themselves aren't piss-poor enough.
universenessDecember 03, 2022 at 12:18#7604140 likes
Reply to Tom Storm
Sorry if it disappoints, but I am an avid Star Wars fan, I just don't buy any of their merchandise, but I do own 2 lord of the rings chess sets and a whole collection of star trek model ships, which are boxed in a cupboard. I am one of those over 50, sci-fi geeks and proud to be.
I always intended to gain ownership of the term 'geek' as a mnemonic for something cool:
Gorgeous
Erudite
Elemental
Kritter (yeah I know it's my own spelling).
I'm sure TPF folks could offer me something better for the inevitable Tshirt.
I remember not so long ago when it used to be so amazing to be nostalgic. Things were better then. There's not the respect for yesterday like there was when I was growing up.
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 03, 2022 at 12:50#7604250 likes
Can understand classic Star Wars and Star Trek, but LOTR never done anything for me.
I should correct what I said earlier. I was using the homelessness figure for England only and I calculated this as a percentage of the whole of the UK. Homelessness is actually closer to 0.5%, per Shelter's numbers.
I can't get into science fiction or fantasy and find such things as Harry Potter hopelessly boring.
I'm not sure what it is about my personality that leads me that way, but I am sure it's a superior trait of mine.
universenessDecember 03, 2022 at 12:56#7604270 likes
Reply to Tom Storm
I think you really meant the more bemused ........ 00000000kaaaaaaaaaayyyy! But you are perhaps, just too nice a person to express it Tom, so I expressed it for you! :halo:
universenessDecember 03, 2022 at 13:11#7604290 likes
I should correct what I said earlier. I was using the homelessness figure for England only and I calculated this as a percentage of the whole of the UK. Homelessness is actually closer to 0.5%, per Shelter's numbers.
I wonder what the homeless figures are in Africa, India, Yemen, the Ukraine?
We humans still have much work to do! But I would bet that there is less homelessness and less piss-poor accommodation in the UK now, per percentage population, than there has been at any previous point in the history of our 4 nations. The socialist/humanist and in some cases, even theist-based, people of the past who fought so bloody hard for the improvements made, are the ones we can't forget.
We can't let them down by watching all they fought for regress back to earlier hell states.
I wanted to make it a quick and very non-committal 'OK' so we could move along.
I don't know, I will attempt to communicate with 'the force' and find out if you work for the dark side.
There must be a branch of the fastest growing religion (Jedi) somewhere near me.
Is Star Wars sci-fi? I thought it was a shallow adaptation of Joseph Campbell myth studies, with a sword and sorcery overlay, dressed up with little robots and bad latex make up.
I have nothing against sci-fi in its literary form, it just isn't for me.
Holding no managerial position of your own, you're in no position to delegate the task to we humans, leaving your only meaningful response to your own individual hands.
That is, what have you done to treat this problem now that you've diagnosed it? I'm just hearing concern and condemnation, but not a single board has been lifted, or am I mistaken?
I can't get into science fiction or fantasy and find such things as Harry Potter hopelessly boring.
This is a bit like saying “I can’t get into jazz and find such things as Kenny G hopelessly boring”. One can obviously like jazz while also finding Kenny G hopelessly boring. Indeed, it’s probably a pre-requisite.
Science fiction is the pre-eminent twentieth century literary genre (kind of like jazz was in music, imo). It explores how technology and social change interact with psychology, history, language, and all the rest of human reality (come to think of it, fantasy sometimes does these things as well). It’s the fictional field of ideas and imagination and tends to be less concerned with the minutiae of mundane, everyday life. If the latter is your thing, SF isn’t the best place to get it. This is a matter of differing priorities and interests, not of better and worse.
I'm not sure what it is about my personality that leads me that way
Could it be because your knowledge of science fiction and fantasy come from TV and movies rather than literature? There are some gems, but most of that stuff is a bit rubbish, and lags decades behind the written fiction.
Just because someone is into science fiction and fantasy doesn’t mean they’re into Star Wars and Harry Potter. There is huge variety, from the tropiest pulp to literary art.
I don’t collect Star Wars figures, and this is not only because I remain bitter that when I was nine years old my parents bought me the rebel transport ship instead of a Millennium Falcon.
Note to fans of Star Wars or Harry Potter: I’m not saying they’re utter crap (or am I?).
don’t collect Star Wars figures, and this is not only because I remain bitter that when I was nine years old my parents bought me the rebel transport ship instead of a Millennium Falcon.
I've obviously struck a nerve with you, which has outed you as a previously closeted scifier (a derogatory term I'd like to think I just coined).
I used Star Wars and Harry Potter as examples of the genre, but what holds true of them holds for the entire sci-fi enterprise (note the clever Star Wars pun reference). The same of jazz. It all sucks, from Kenny G to Kenny Z if there is such a man, excluding Ice T and Jay Z of different generes of course. Of course.
Could it be because your knowledge of science fiction and fantasy come from TV and movies rather than literature?
And so I've outed myself here in that I suppose that I'm less than a voracious reader. Fine, now we all know. Quoting Jamal
don’t collect Star Wars figures, and this is not only because I remain bitter that when I was nine years old my parents bought me the rebel transport ship instead of a Millennium Falcon.
Christmas is coming. Maybe they'll right that past wrong.
I can't get into science fiction or fantasy and find such things as Harry Potter hopelessly boring.
I'm not sure what it is about my personality that leads me that way, but I am sure it's a superior trait of mine.
Is it your personality that leads you to write the kind of short stories usually submitted to the TPF Competition? Or what?
It's a pity the December 2022 one has been cancelled. You could have entered a sci-fi/fantasy and who would have guessed it was yours?
I had an idea but haven't a clue as to how feasible it is.
Your thoughts? @Baden@Jamal@Caldwell
What I had thought about:
An Alternative Creative Contest; a simpler way to post short stories simply for enjoyment and feedback. No big hoo-hah, just a giving and sharing in the Festive Season.
So, a simple thread or threads could be started by someone (Caldwell ?) so that stories could be posted anonymously. Authors would send a PM directly to Caldwell (or someone) with their story.
Any reader could then post their thoughts and give each story a star or two or three for how it made them feel, think and appreciate, perhaps giving examples from the story. Or even use emoticons like Jamal does in the Books thread :up: :100:
That might be fun... :chin:
Does that make any sense...at all?
Or is it beyond too late? I send this wish in forlorn hope, probably doomed to fail :sad:
Santa, are you out there? :kiss:
While absurd, I don't think what I write has that Camus nihilistic thing going on, nor that clear attempt to make a cogent philosophical point, so it's not absudism per se.
But enough about me about me. I re-open the floor to about me.
We will then make our way to the break room to our scones and tea.
Lovely indeed.
Scones are too much of a faff, by far.
Heed the wise words of Judi Dench in the 'Best Exotic Marigold Hotel':
[It is builder's tea]
Evelyn : , we dunk biscuits into it.
Sunaina's Brother : Dunk?
Evelyn : Means lowering the biscuit into the tea and letting it soak in there and trying to calculate the exact moment before the biscuit dissolves, when you whip it up into your mouth and enjoy the blissful union of biscuits and tea combined. It's more relaxing than it sounds.
It's a pity the December 2022 one has been cancelled.
I didn't exactly cancel it. I offered the opportunity in the mod forum for anyone else to take over and no one was interested, so it was cancelled by default, I suppose, as I had the star-defying audacity to limit my involvement to once a year. :smile: Anyhow, your idea might work and there's a whole category devoted to short stories that is open year-round here anyhow: https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/40/short-stories
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 03, 2022 at 17:24#7604820 likes
Attlee's government transformed the country with the NHS. The trouble is, is the NHS run by generations of Tory governments any better than U.S healthcare?
I didn't exactly cancel it. I offered the opportunity in the mod forum for anyone else to take over and no one was interested, so it was cancelled by default, I suppose, as I had the star-defying audacity to limit my involvement to once a year
Thanks for the clarification. I understand better now. Cheers :up:
Sorry, I edited a bit out because I thought Caldwell had edited her comment. But she moved it to the short story thread. Anyway in response to the edited-out bit, this is what I said earlier:
I think I've come to the conclusion I have enough interest to do this once a year, partly because I think there's diminishing returns in engagement if we do it twice a year.
Which is exactly right (I still think this). The other part I didn't mention is not a mysterious hidden reason, just another mundane personal consideration. Anyway, @Caldwell is kindly taking over, so over to her...
I think I've come to the conclusion I have enough interest to do this once a year, partly because I think there's diminishing returns in engagement if we do it twice a year.
— the Baden
Which is exactly right (I still think this). The other part I didn't mention is not a mysterious hidden reason, just another mundane personal consideration
Just someone else to volunteer. Though @Caldwell is not doing a full short story competition but a similar activity that will hopefully give those who were disappointed a chance to have some festive fun. Give her a chance to set it up anyway and all will be revealed soon. :up:
Though Caldwell is not doing a full short story competition but a similar activity that will hopefully give those who were disappointed a chance to have some festive fun. Give her a chance to set it up anyway and all will be revealed soon. :up:
I'm looking forward to the Big Reveal. Thanks @Caldwell :sparkle:
And major :clap: :clap: :clap: to @the Baden for all his past, present and future hard work!
Too much? :yikes:
There is huge variety, from the tropiest pulp to literary art.
I've been reading science fiction and fantasy since I started reading things I didn't have to. The first book I remember is "A Wrinkle in Time." Even so, there aren't many of those books I would consider "literary art." Can you name a few of those you think of that way.
Frankenstein, Mary Shelley
Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell
The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
The Handmaid’s Tale, Margaret Atwood
The Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe
Ubik, Philip K. Dick
A Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller
The Glamour, Christopher Priest
The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess
Hothouse, Brian Aldiss
Several H.G. Wells, a few Robert Silverbergs.
Others that are usually mentioned but which I haven’t read yet:
Neuromancer, William Gibson
Crash, J.G. Ballard
The Road, Cormac McCarthy
Dhalgren, Samuel R. Delaney
Never Let Me Go, Kazuo Ishiguro
Solaris, Stanislaw Lem
I’m sure there are many more.
Fantasy I’m less familiar with. I have my own reservations about The Lord of the Rings but there’s no doubt in my mind it’s a tremendous literary achievement.
I suppose this will be like a staring contest with @El Jamal to see who will change back first, guaranteeing it will never happen and we will both be stuck with the amended names forever. :wink:
Thanks. I have always resisted calling science fiction "literature." What it has meant to me from the beginning is books written for 13-year-old boys by men with the minds of 13-year-old boys. I acknowledge that is no longer true, but the excitement I used to feel reading "Tales From the White Hart," the "Foundation" trilogy, "Rendezvous with Rama," "Ringworld," and similar books now sometimes seems out of place. Grownups have taken over the enterprise, which I guess is inevitable and may be a good thing.
books written for 13-year-old boys by men with the minds of 13-year-old boys
If they do it well and they’ve got great ideas, it’s literature, in my view. I’d be tempted to put some Asimov in the list too, despite the clunky prose.
But yeah, the Golden Age and the American pulps were part of a historically specific (and important) period in SF’s development, and there’s a lot else besides that, both before and after.
You inspired me. No, not to go to work for NASA, but to get my son "Rocket Boys" for Christmas. Written by a West Virginia boy who grew up to build rockets. It was made into a great movie - "October Sky."
On point. Maybe T Clark can comment on us setting up lunar bases on the moon. I suppose not many people would care; but it's long overdue.
I don't have strong feelings. I've always been skeptical of such plans, but Elon Musk and his competitors have convinced me that there may be commercial value in space, if not in my lifetime (15 years as an optimistic estimate), at least in the not too distant future.
I don't have strong feelings. I've always been skeptical of such plans, but Elon Musk and his competitors have convinced me that there may be commercial value in space, if not in my lifetime (15 years as an optimistic estimate), at least in the not too distant future.
Correct me if wrong, but it's been directed by Trump that we return to the moon by 2025 and set up lunar bases.
There’s no doubt Lem is one of the greats. The philosophical questions he poses feel colder and more academic to me, though, in comparison to Dick, who to me is much more visceral and existential.
Reply to The Baden The Baden - sounds like the name of a formerly grand art deco hotel which fell on hard times in the 1960's and is now a crumbling and stercoraceous crack house.
Frankenstein, Mary Shelley
Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell
The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
The Handmaid’s Tale, Margaret Atwood
The Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe
Ubik, Philip K. Dick
A Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller
The Glamour, Christopher Priest
The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess
Hothouse, Brian Aldiss
Several H.G. Wells, a few Robert Silverbergs.
Others that are usually mentioned but which I haven’t read yet:
Neuromancer, William Gibson
Crash, J.G. Ballard
The Road, Cormac McCarthy
Dhalgren, Samuel R. Delaney
Never Let Me Go, Kazuo Ishiguro
Solaris, Stanislaw Lem
I've read some of these. Some good shit. Cormac McCarthy I ususally find unconvincing, The Road, (for me) was bland and derivative. But I think his book Suttree (not sci-fi) is a masterpiece.
Frankenstein is an exceptional book by a remarkable young woman.
Also
Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
It seems I find intimate stories more engaging than the kind of sweeping saga bullshit of Dune, say.
It seems I find intimate stories more engaging than the kind of sweeping saga bullshit of Dune, say.
Heh. I love Dune. I dislike Duncan as a character, in the grand scheme of Dune. But I like how much it focuses on economy and culture and the interplay between them.
Reply to Tom Storm I recommend Brandon Q. Morris ((pen name of Matthias Matting)--a German physicist and space specialist. He's published around 45 sci-fi novels (frequently written as a series with each volume being relatively short).
The Ice Moon books are set on Enceladus, Titan, and Io in the near future. Intelligent life is encountered in Enceladus and [i]Return to Enceladus[/I], and one character from that pair of stories appears in quite a few subsequent stories, much farther into the future. A private Russian space company is an important element. An inadvertent product of their technology is a compact artificial intelligence which loads itself into a robot vacuum cleaner so that it can unobtrusively spy on its creators. The quirky vacuum cleaner ends up in several subsequent stores as well.
Morris writes "hard science fiction" which apparently means that the machinery is technically possible, even if improbable. There's no faster than light travel, for instance.
I've read all of his books and enjoyed 95% of them.
Reply to El Jamal Dune follows a very rococo plot. I've been rereadng the series (the 5 plus prequels and sequels) for decades. Some parts are definitely better than others, certainly. Herbert's son wrapped up all the loose ends in the final sequel. It's like a complex puzzle--fascinating but not emotionally moving. I am probably done with Dune.
As with most of those sci-fi books, I have seen them. I didn't read them nor see the movie, but I did see the book. Most, from what I saw, were really very good judging from the cover.
Reply to Hanover You make a lot of sense. The best sci-fi book I ever saw was Lord Valentine's Castle. On the cover it had a castle and the words 'spectacularly readable'. What a book...
Noble DustDecember 04, 2022 at 02:18#7607120 likes
That's a good point. Does the master of a truffle hunter reward the pig with a portion of the spoils? It would only seem equitable. Perhaps that contributes to their high price.
Dune follows a very rococo plot. I've been rereadng the series (the 5 plus prequels and sequels) for decades. Some parts are definitely better than others, certainly. Herbert's son wrapped up all the loose ends in the final sequel. It's like a complex puzzle--fascinating but not emotionally moving. I am probably done with Dune.
Just finished the latest, The Heir of Caladan, and I definitely feel done, though in truth I’ll probability be inclined to read along no matter how laboriously they drag it out.
The Baden - sounds like the name of a formerly grand art deco hotel which fell on hard times in the 1960's and is now a crumbling and stercoraceous crack house.
And now the 'The' fell off the sign. But at least we're still havin' the craic.
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 13:48#7608020 likes
Is Star Wars sci-fi? I thought it was a shallow adaptation of Joseph Campbell myth studies, with a sword and sorcery overlay, dressed up with little robots and bad latex make up.
Myth and sorcery are fiction. Robots and latex are products of science. A story which is not about real events and has such ingredients can be termed sci-fi, regardless of your personal opinion of its quality.
There's no accounting for personal taste. One man's meat is another man's poison!
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 13:55#7608050 likes
Holding no managerial position of your own, you're in no position to delegate the task to we humans, leaving your only meaningful response to your own individual hands.
That is, what have you done to treat this problem now that you've diagnosed it? I'm just hearing concern and condemnation, but not a single board has been lifted, or am I mistaken?
I need no position of authority to reason with other members of my own species.
Neither do you.
We would need to know each other's life in a lot more detail to judge who has contributed more to helping others. Not a comparison I care much about as it's never been about 'feeling good about myself.' I have no idea what your priorities are.
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 14:07#7608080 likes
The trouble is, is the NHS run by generations of Tory governments any better than U.S healthcare?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63808516
The NHS is never safe in the hands of tory governments as they covet profits much more than people.
If the choice even became as poor as waiting for 40 hours to get help from A&E services in the UK or having to sell my house to be able to afford a new hip in the US then I would still far prefer the UK NHS to the 'good health if you can afford it,' US system.
Down The Rabbit HoleDecember 04, 2022 at 16:10#7608210 likes
The NHS is never safe in the hands of tory governments as they covet profits much more than people.
If the choice even became as poor as waiting for 40 hours to get help from A&E services in the UK or having to sell my house to be able to afford a new hip in the US then I would still far prefer the UK NHS to the 'good health if you can afford it,' US system.
"“Relentless cuts” to the health service could be behind 30,000 deaths in 2015, argued researchers in two articles published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine". The website obamacarefacts (which if anything would inflate their figures) states "Depending upon the study, we can derive that between 20,000 and 45,000 Americans die each year due to a lack of health insurance".
So roughly the same number of tragedies. However, as a percentage of population, we are worse?
A story which is not about real events and has such ingredients can be termed sci-fi, regardless of your personal opinion of its quality.
Actually, I was referencing George Lucas who said at Sundance in 2015, "Star Wars really isn't a science-fiction film, it's a fantasy film and a space opera." Regardless of quality assessments, I have generally heard it described as science fantasy.
Reply to Tom Storm Hah! No, I don't do that. I love reading and discovering new topics. Diving deep into a new subject gives an amazing feeling of wonder and eventually fulfillment. Not recreating my bland childhood.
"“Relentless cuts” to the health service could be behind 30,000 deaths in 2015, argued researchers in two articles published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine". The website obamacarefacts (which if anything would inflate their figures) states "Depending upon the study, we can derive that between 20,000 and 45,000 Americans die each year due to a lack of health insurance".
So roughly the same number of tragedies. However, as a percentage of population, we are worse?
Yeah, but as I already said, that's the NHS under the capitalist tories. It is no surprise to me at all, that the NHS is constantly under attack by capitalism and the tories.
Faff or no faff, I took your comment as a challenge and my scones are baking as we speak. I'm even bold enough to tell you that before they're done, so I'll be forced to report the outcome regardless.
They're doubtfully authentic English scones because I did add dried cranberries and the amount of sugar seemed diabeticaly American.
I'll send you pics. This was my recipe: https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/scones-recipe/
Reply to Tom Storm Middle-aged people thinking they can discover/recover their authentic selves (whatever those are) with Star Wars paraphernalia (or any other stuff) is just pathetic. "You can't go home again" Tom Wolfe said. You can't step in the same river twice. Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't live here anymore. Sorry.
Having dumped on all these authenticity seeking people, I find I have no advice on how they might find their allegedly authentic selves, or what they ought to do with them should they figure it out.
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 21:23#7608960 likes
Actually, I was referencing George Lucas who said at Sundance in 2015, "Star Wars really isn't a science-fiction film, it's a fantasy film and a space opera."
Yeah, I'm sure he did. Probably to cast the Star Wars net as far as he can, to attract folks like yourself and any other folks not attracted to the sci-fi genre, to his movies. I am sure he would connect elements of Star Wars to every known genre of film, if it could make him more money. I think I will just keep calling Star Wars, sci-fi, regardless of the ad moves of its director.
Having dumped on all these authenticity seeking people, I find I have no advice on how they might find their allegedly authentic selves, or what they ought to do with them should they figure it out.
I find I find myself when I'm not trying to figure out what others want. Not that I was overly other oriented in the first place, but time alone is where you locate yourself.
It's not always great what you find, but the first step to the cure is the diagnosis.
My guess is that your house, your clothes, the things you say are a whole lot more Bittercrankish than when you were young, carefree, but gave more a fuck what others thought.
Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that David G. Hartwell and Kathryn Cramer define as "colorful, dramatic, large-scale science fiction adventure, competently and sometimes beautifully written, usually focused on a sympathetic, heroic central character and plot action, and usually set in the relatively distant future, and in space or on other worlds, characteristically optimistic in tone. It often deals with war, piracy, military virtues, and very large-scale action, large stakes."[1]
. Wikipedia
I guess if you really like a story set in the distant future, far far away, with some military hocus pocus, then it's a space opera instead of science fiction.
Reply to Hanover The older I get, the less certain I am of what I was like or who I was when I was young. It is not a memory problem--it is one of interpretation.
Reply to universeness I think Lucas was sincere and it is not really a contradiction to what he has said over the years. It's as much a pirate movie as it is a sci-fi or sci-fa. When I was studying myth at university many years ago, Star Wars, which was largely based upon A Hero With A Thousand Faces, was taught as a useful instantiation of Jungian archetypes. I think we can probably say that Star Wars is fecund post-modern territory for multi-faceted interpretative possibilities. Oh, and it's also shit. :wink:
Reply to Amity should've cut them smaller, but they taste pretty good. Turns out English cooking is my calling.
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 21:55#7609080 likes
Reply to Bitter Crank Reply to Tom Storm
I appreciate the points you are making regarding nuanced nomenclature, but I don't really care about the difference between sci-fi and space opera or the myriad comparisons that have been made between star wars/star trek/cowboy movies/fantasy movies/horror movies/soap operas/war films etc etc.
Sci-fi is just a form of personal entertainment. It's not like we are discussing something as important as Carl Sagans Cosmos or Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man.
I enjoy the Star Wars movies and will continue to do so.
If Tom thinks they are shit then he has the right to feel that way. Perhaps he prefers Jackie Collins novels and American teenage rom coms :joke: Thats his right to!
If Tom thinks they are shit then he has the right to feel that way. Perhaps he prefers Jackie Collins novels and American teenage rom coms :joke: Thats his right to!
Actually that's another way of looking at Star Wars (the first one) as a teenage rom com. The fact that Luke wants to fuck his sister just makes it deeper - more like Greek mythology - so what's not to like?
Reply to Hanover
I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with these apparently faff-free delights.
I am no baker and don't do doughy things well.
They look delicious and now I need to go put the kettle on.
The faffiness I was referring to was that of a different kind of scone.
But also associated with yumminess; a holiday treat.
Something along the lines of:
The fact that Luke wants to fuck his sister just makes it deeper - more like Greek mythology - so what's not to like?
Not after he found out she was his sister. Make up your mind Tom, in one post you think the films are shit and in this one you type 'what's not to like?'
Make up your mind Tom, in one post you think the films are shit and in this one you type 'what's not to like?'
You're not reading closely, U. I said what's not to like about this interpretation, not the film itself. How are you expected to understand Deleuze if you can't focus, Comrade?
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 22:14#7609180 likes
I think Lucas was sincere and it is not really a contradiction to what he has said over the years. It's as much a pirate movie as it is a sci-fi or sci-fa. When I was studying myth at university many years ago, Star Wars, which was largely based upon A Hero With A Thousand Faces, was taught as a useful instantiation of Jungian archetypes. I think we can probably say that Star Wars is fecund post-modern territory for multi-faceted interpretative possibilities. Oh, and it's also shit. :wink:
Oh dear, instantiations of Jungian archetypes, post modern multi-faceted interpretations... what muck!
While one CAN play those sorts of word games, it is best remembered that Star Wars (and a big et al) are in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th place commercial entertainments appealing to the demographic most likely to spend money going to movie theaters. Without some cash, an analysis of multi-faceted post-modern Jungian instantiations won't get one a cup of coffee.
I assume we have seen serious cinema which can bear the weight of cultural analysis games (like Bergman's films, for instance) but it seems wasted on Star Wars. Did I like Star Wars? Of course. I thought it was pretty good entertainment.
Mass market entertainment has a legitimate place in a mass-market society for the amusement of the masses. Art house cinema is fine and dandy, and I've seen my share top-shelf stuff. But sometimes we want a movie that allows us to escape from the horror show of everyday life for a little while.
universenessDecember 04, 2022 at 23:02#7609330 likes
But sometimes we want a movie that allows us to escape from the horror show of everyday life for a little while.
:up: Especially when the basics are present. Evil empire, lots of good special effects, the voice of James Earl Jones and the reassurance that the good guys will win in the end.
Reply to Shawn Dear Shawn, an interesting poem about pigs:
Us all sore cement was we.
Not warmed then with glares. Not glutting mush
under that pole the lightning's tied to.
No farrow-shit in milk to make us randy.
Us back in cool god-shit. We ate crisp.
We nosed up good rank in the tunnelled bush.
Us all fuckers then. And Big, huh? Tusked
the balls-biting dog and gutsed him wet.
Us shoved down the soft cement of rivers.
Us snored the earth hollow, filled farrow, grunted.
Never stopped growing. We sloughed, we soughed
and balked no weird till the high ridgebacks was us
with weight-buried hooves. Or bristly, with milk.
Us never knowed like slitting nor hose-biff then.
Nor the terrible sheet-cutting screams up ahead.
The burnt water kicking. This gone-already feeling
here in no place with our heads on upside down.
Les Murray
Is this a whole book of pig poems? Don't know.
Here's one poem from the book. Philip Levine is from Detroit. He's a good poet, I think.
Animals Are Passing From Our Lives
by Philip Levine
It's wonderful how I jog
on four honed-down ivory toes
my massive buttocks slipping
like oiled parts with each light step.
I'm to market. I can smell
the sour, grooved block, I can smell
the blade that opens the hole
and the pudgy white fingers
that shake out the intestines
like a hankie. In my dreams
the snouts drool on the marble,
suffering children, suffering flies,
suffering the consumers
who won't meet their steady eyes
for fear they could see. The boy
who drives me along believes
that any moment I'll fall
on my side and drum my toes
like a typewriter or squeal
and shit like a new housewife
discovering television,
or that I'll turn like a beast
cleverly to hook his teeth
with my teeth. No. Not this pig.
h dear, instantiations of Jungian archetypes, post modern multi-faceted interpretations... what muck!
Firstly, you seem to have missed that this was parody. :wink: Nevertheless, don't forget that the leading Jungian/myth scholar who wrote the book which inspired Lucas to make the movie (Joseph Campbell) thought Star Wars was essentially an inventory of his ideas articulated clearly for mass consumption. I think this is accurate. It's easy to shit on this process but without this impulse the movie wouldn't have been made. The 'escape from the horror show' bit is what audiences bring to movies.
The 'escape from the horror show' bit is what audiences bring to movies.
What do you mean? Don't you think Hollywood (general term) sometimes sets out to give us an escape from the horror show of everyday life?
Of course, one can also escape from the horror show by attending a baseball game, symphony concert, getting fucked silly at a bathhouse, or drinking beer.
In my head, pigs symbolize earthiness. They are of the earth more than goats or eagles. They are a symbol of enthusiastic generative life. On the farm, one can observe pastured pigs' enthusiasm for life as they root, wallow, gobble, snort, and squeal.
What do you mean? Don't you think Hollywood (general term) sometimes sets out to give us an escape from the horror show of everyday life?
Of course. Escapism is part of it. But I'm saying that many writers/filmmakers try to do something more ambitious than merely entertain. Often there are years of thinking behind a project that lasts 2 hours on screen. As we know, producers and the studio often cut things out and dumb it down on the basis that a mass audience only wants undemanding stuff. If the mass want dumb shit to watch, it doesn't mean the makers didn't try to provide more.
Of course, one can also escape from the horror show by attending a baseball game, symphony concert, getting fucked silly at a bathhouse, or drinking beer.
As we know, producers and the studio often cut things out and dumb it down on the basis that a mass audience only wants undemanding stuff. If the mass want dumb shit to watch, it doesn't mean the makers didn't try to provide more.
Both things happen, true enough. I'd say that solid artistic productions (not necessarily "art house" fare) can provide as much escape-from-the-horror-show as schlock and dreck productions do. There are a lot of great movies that do not and will not appeal to your average teen age cartoon adventure character fan, but which will satisfy a lot of adults.
Do you remember "I Am Curious Yellow?" It was an "erotic" art house film from Sweden, 1967. It was a must-see film for the progressive set. We were hoping for a pleasant Swedish romp with escapist potential. No such luck. It was as-bad-as-if-not-worse-than-reality. It gave us headaches.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 05, 2022 at 02:08#7609870 likes
I met a couple today who have been married for 54 years. I asked the wife what the secret to having such a long marriage is. She said "I have no idea."
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 06, 2022 at 01:04#7612450 likes
If you didn't care what happened to me
And I didn't care for you
We would zigzag our way through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
So Australians are the only ones who say "arse" right? C. S. Lewis says "ass" in Out of the Silent Planet.
It's English. Generally Australian English is English English. Hence we say lift (elevator) and boot (trunk) and behind him (at back of him), take away (take out) and our spelling: colour and maths are English too. But it is changing thanks to social media and other factors.
When you hear about England, you hear about all the English, not just one, or a smidge. You hear everyone, in a united roar, England! England... England!!!
Nah, why would they be. They are members of the greatest country known to mankind.
Well, yes. In the US, there tends to be a stereotype associated with American southerners. They're supposed to be less intelligent, sort of lower class. I was wondering if the same thing exists in the UK.
When you hear about England, you hear about all the English, not just one, or a smidge. You hear everyone, in a united roar, England! England... England!!!
So Australians are the only ones who say "arse" right? C. S. Lewis says "ass" in Out of the Silent Planet.
Lewis was using it in the standard British English sense of fool. It’s like calling someone a donkey. An ass is a kind of horse, or just a donkey, so “ass” is used in unflattering metaphor.
Arse is different. It means the buttocks or backside and always has, and it’s used in the UK as well as in Australia.
The word asinine is from the Latin. It is good because it gets the stubborn part in as well as not being very bright. I don't know how the anatomical feature crept in. I grew up hearing the expression of "he is a horse's ass." Never heard of a "donkey's ass", or for extra fun, an "ass's ass.'
I experienced the other end of the spectrum when a German colleague said this softly every time the boss showed up on the job site: "Arschloch." After those heartfelt performances, everything else is weak beer.
I fall into the camp that Tom mentioned. I'm also not really a Waters fan; left to his own devices the cynicism of his songs is ugly and not tasteful to me. Of course, by himself Gilmour is too soft and lacks bite, hence why the golden era is where the meat is, in my view. They were a yin and yang thing.
Reply to T Clark We don't generally call people an ass down here these days (unless by ass you mean arse) but we do call people donkeys. 'You fuckin' donkey!' used to be a favorite term of abuse in my workplace.
Reply to Shawn
Ok... the owners of the pig and cow are engaging them in rough sports contact for their future job as a pigskin football and a leather baseball mitt.
Sorry... that was tasteless. I’ll try again.
All right, the pig is actually a Catholic bishop, and is performing the laying on of hands / hoofs in the confirmation sacrament of the little cow. (the Church having a shortage of priests and bishops allowed pigs to serve. But not women? They’re still trying to join the 20th century. We’ll see pigs flying airplanes first).
It seems to be a gesture of solidarity and unity between an albino cow and a young pig.
Imagine a pig suckling on a cows udder to feed itself. This act of altruism on behalf of the cow and pig satisfies the swollen udder and the thirsty and parched pig.
Is there a problem with the board, why are my posts going missing? Or is it poor moderation? I don't care if random people support you no-one here posts good stuff it's all merry with low level content and there is no true progression. You have kiss assers who support you but most of the time you just dribble and do creative writing, you're not philosophers, you block true philosophy here. You're lucky the world is poorly organized cause another forum could easily take you out.
"North Korea has publicly executed three teenagers by firing squad – two for watching and distributing South Korean movies and one for murdering his stepmother – two sources who witnessed it told Radio Free Asia.
The alleged crimes committed by the teens, estimated to be 16 or 17, were equally evil, authorities told terrified residents, who were forced to watch, the sources said.
“They said, ‘Those who watch or distribute South Korean movies and dramas, and those who disrupt social order by murdering other people, will not be forgiven and will be sentenced to the maximum penalty–death,’” a resident of the city of Hyesan, on the border with China, where the execution took place, told RFA’s Korean service."
They equated watching a South Korean movie with murdering one's own mother, like there's a moral equivalence.
Imagine a pig suckling on a cows udder to feed itself. This act of altruism on behalf of the cow and pig satisfies the swollen udder and the thirsty and parched pig.
I don't know how you conclude that's a female cow. We have limited information based upon the picture, but could just as easily be some sort of goat or even sheep, but I'm going with it being a bull, which would end in a different result if the pig attempts the suckling you've suggested.
Reply to Jamal
True. It was a joke that didn't quite launch: a dog who feels embarrassed all the time because he can't stop himself from humping people's legs.
Write the micro story. Maybe mimic Hanover's style to throw us off the scent, as it were.
I'm not feeling anything sprouting from that seed.
universenessDecember 09, 2022 at 13:29#7621550 likes
@jamal
:smile: Ok!
Noble DustDecember 09, 2022 at 17:05#7622070 likes
Breakfast: a plump sesame seed bagel from my favorite shop, toasted, with Irish butter, and coffee freshly ground in my burr grinder and made with an aeropress. It's a glorious (late) morning in Brooklyn.
Plump bagels sounds good. Can’t get them here. I mean, there are bagels around, but I’m thinking they’re nothing compared to what you get in New York.
I realized I was low on iron-rich foods so I’ve been eating a lot of liver, both chicken and beef (I hear pig’s liver is unpleasant). Fried with onions and chopped up asparagus in olive oil and butter and served up on toast, preferably a toasted plump bagel. It’s important not to overcook the liver. Rare or medium rare is good.
Noble DustDecember 09, 2022 at 17:23#7622130 likes
They say the New York water does something special to both the bagels and the pizza. I think the bagel dough is also fermented overnight.
Do you like liver? My only experience with it, other than Foie gras, was when I ordered some mystery meat at a Dominican deli counter and discovered it to be liver. The hazards of being an adventurous eater.
Do you like liver? My only experience with it, other than Foie gras, was when I ordered some mystery meat at a Dominican deli counter and discovered it to be liver. The hazards of being an adventurous eater.
I love it, yes. And kidneys, hearts, and … actually I draw the line at intestines, brains, pancreases and lungs. Although come to think of it I love haggis and that’s sheep’s lungs in a sheep’s stomach.
Interesting. I've never had heart. Seems dicey. I don't mind intestine; I've had some really good pig intestine tacos. Beef tongue tacos, when done right, are phenomenal as well. Brains I would try for some reason...the rest, no.
I’m intrigued by your Dominican deli experience. That’s a cuisine I don’t expect to be able to try any time soon.
There's lunch counters here but they are few and far between. Pre-made hot food in trays, very cheap (or used to be). It's stick to your ribs grub; slow cooked beef, chicken, pork, liver, pinto beans, usually swimming in rich brothy sauces, with plenty of stewed onions, served over plain white rice or seasoned yellow rice. They'll often have odd ephemera like chicken soup or fusion-y pasta dishes incorporating latin seasonings. It's a good working man's lunch.
There's lunch counters here but they are few and far between. Pre-made hot food in trays, very cheap (or used to be). It's stick to your ribs grub; slow cooked beef, chicken, pork, liver, pinto beans, usually swimming in rich brothy sauces, with plenty of stewed onions, served over plain white rice or seasoned yellow rice. They'll often have odd ephemera like chicken soup or fusion-y pasta dishes incorporating latin seasonings. It's a good working man's lunch.
I've never had heart. Seems dicey. I don't mind intestine
Guts, yes; hearts, no? Doesn't make sense. It's muscle tissue -- not viscera like tripe or chitlins. I've tasted pork gut -- disgusting odor and texture -- but not tripe. I've had calf brain, long time ago. Tasted good; odd texture. Then bovine spongiform encephalopathy came along and no more ox tail or calf brain. I like liver, despite it being a chemical dump. Liver dumplings are good too. Hard to come by, though.
Kidneys? Nice texture, good in a cream sauce with spaetzle; some people find the flavor off-putting. Sweetbread? I'd like to try. Do birds have a thymus gland? T cells?
Noble DustDecember 09, 2022 at 20:44#7622750 likes
I’ve had duck and chicken hearts. Very popular in the Southwest of France, where I used to live. Very tasty.
Sure - I've eaten camel's hump, crocodile, goat's head soup, emu, lizard, snake, witchetty grub, kangaroo, ox tongue, the livers, hearts and lungs of innumerable beasts in various European dishes, and I was once offered broiled domestic cat - but I said no - the guy was mad, with suspect hygiene.
Sure - I've eaten camel's hump, crocodile, goat's head soup, emu, lizard, snake, witchetty grub, kangaroo, ox tongue, the livers, hearts and lungs of innumerable beasts in various European dishes, and I was once offered broiled domestic cat - but I said no - the guy was mad, with suspect hygiene.
My daughter's girlfriend is a grilling/smoking fan. I was joking with my daughter about getting her this for Christmas:
Whole Alligator - Skinned with Head and Feet on. $214.99 from Amazon not including shipping. Oh, what a wonderful world.
As far as I know, this is not available in Australia. But then, all you have to do is waltz down to the billabong, bash a croc over the head with your didgeridoo, and slip it on the barbie with the shrimp.
Reply to T Clark You beauty, Cobber - I just had a bonza lunch of shredded llyrebird and deep-fried koala, the midyim berries were sweet, but the wattle gum wine seemed to be corked. I'm off now to ride my emu to the pub and crack open a few brews with Uncle Mulga and his crew. Strewth! I'm late and I still need to point Percy at the porcelain.
It seems there was an outage at the datacentre used by PlushForums for our site. I'm not sure how long TPF was down because I was asleep. Maybe a couple of hours. I hope there won't be any more interruptions but if there are, don't panic.
javi2541997December 10, 2022 at 09:11#7624730 likes
Reply to Jamal The interruption started at 08:28. I was reading a short story and randomly it went down. Thanks for fixing it! I was wondering for a hour that my problem was my browser because I use Opera :rofl: So, I have restarted it like 10 times without any reason. :yikes:
You'll note the split hoof on the pig, which is required for it to be kosher, but because it doesn't also chew its cud, it is treif. That's why, in case you wondered.
I believe that a kosher pig will one day become a reality. But, only if the Hebrew messiah declares it so. What if Christ makes a return, will that count @Hanover?
It seems there was an outage at the datacentre used by PlushForums for our site. I'm not sure how long TPF was down because I was asleep. Maybe a couple of hours. I hope there won't be any more interruptions but if there are, don't panic.
I was right in the middle of a brilliant post about metaphysics or the Tao Te Ching or some other bullshit. Now I forget what I was going to write.
I never thought about the cultural context of Jesus's second coming. I guess he'll probably arrive in a tricked out space ship with a lightsaber in one hand and a blaster in the other. The 12 behind him as a tactical support team, night vision goggles, ear piece walky talkys, the whole thing.
, you rule out the chance of Christ becoming the anticipated Jewish Messiah upon his second coming?
I'm not convinced he is of the proper Davidic lineage, although some say he is.
That's my major reservation. A lesser issue I have relates to the impossibility of resurrection of the dead and the incoherence of divinity in the flesh.
But let's first resolve the issue of proper pedigree.
You better believe you're not convinced. Neither were the planted would-be assassins among those whose business it was to know. Sometimes the simplest tricks are the best tricks. They sure do age well. :D
A lesser issue I have relates to the impossibility of resurrection of the dead and the incoherence of divinity in the flesh.
I'm sorry are we still talking about religion? You know that thing where a super being creates an entire planet and all life on it basically by speaking? A bit like buying a house then saying you don't believe in property, no? Just because a thing isn't in front of you and you don't have to deal with it mentally doesn't really make it any more or less coherent, does it?
javi2541997December 11, 2022 at 18:08#7629150 likes
Reply to Jamal I consume them everyday for breakfast. I feel bad about @Shawn because it seems he loves pigs as animal pet.
I want to share a brief story realted to this.
My grandparents are from Toledo and they always raised pigs for food. I remeber a big pig in the farm and my granny told me: dont approach to the big pig. The last time someone did this was a girl and the pig only left the red shoes of the girl after eating her! I remeber having fear about the big pigs of the farms... but in the other hand, I remeber crying with my cousins when they died to make ham, chorizos, etc...
End of the random story and sorry for my grandpa's massacre, Shawn.
[i]Feral hog control: 8 years, some progress, $2.5B damage/year
Eight years into a U.S. program to control damage from feral pigs, the invasive animals with big appetites and snouts that uproot anything that smells good are still a multibillion-dollar plague on farmers, wildlife and the environment.
These prolific hogs gone wild have been wiped out in 11 of the 41 states where they were reported in 2014 or 2015, and there are fewer in parts of the other 30.[/i]
When I was a kid growing up in the swamp, we had gatorhogs that would sneak up behind you and crush your head with their jaws. They got most everyone, leaving the better part of the town unable to do anything but terror scream as that was the only part of their brain unaffected.
My wife was a terrorscreamer and we had 3 children, all born without eyes, but instead had just overbroad foreheads. One went on to be a fighter pilot, but was soon electrocuted punished for his indiscriminate blind weapon firing on crowds.
True story,, except the part about pigs. I've never been around them.
True story,, except the part about pigs. I've never been around them.
It's high time you get a pig for your farm. They're intelligent and sweet animals that love human company. I suppose you shouldn't be afraid of a pig eating you as long as you don't starve it.
It's high time you get a pig for your farm. They're intelligent and sweet animals that love human company. I suppose you shouldn't be afraid of a pig eating you as long as you don't starve it.
My wife has really taken to chicken farming and we're going to get a bigger coop. Whatever it is you see in pigs, she sees in chickens.
Reply to Bitter Crank There’s a rumour to be found on the internet claiming that Lenin was a Mason, accompanied by a photo of him dressed as a Grand Master. It doesn’t really add up, seeing as how he outlawed the organization on gaining power. Kerensky was probably a Mason though.
You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together. And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".
Usually, when a discussion starts taking over the Shoutbox distracting from other posts, moderators require that the posters start a separate thread. I request that they do this with pig pictures.
Usually, when a discussion starts taking over the Shoutbox distracting from other posts, moderators require that the posters start a separate thread. I request that they do this with pig pictures.
Kind of a big asks to round up all the piggies and put them in one pen.
I'd be happy to let Shawn post his pigs in peace, but I'd rather he not do it in the Shoutbox to the extent that he does. As I noted, when that has happened in the past, moderators have often requested posters to start a separate thread. Why is that an unreasonable solution?
Reading TPF Shoutbox is like seeing a rainbow after a sudden afternoon storm or taking that first bite into a steaming loaf of freshly baked bread. It is meant to be enjoyed in the moment with whatever one brings to the table, point or no point, pig or no pig. A timely recap of what one had for dinner, a rare glimpse of the human side of those otherwise shrouded in mystery. A place to share a laugh, a cry, a quip or two, to express oneself intellectually or at times even foolishly. Reality and the human condition live, raw, and uncut- unrefined and for all to enjoy! We're alive, friends. Alive! This is who we are. For much like the rainbow, the crux of any moment will soon pass, and much like the loaf, will become stale. Let us enjoy what is as it is, in full spectrum, fresh with the energy and emotion that reminds us why we get out of bed each morning to begin with- this thing we call Life.
god must be atheistDecember 13, 2022 at 03:26#7633200 likes
Two words exited the language just as quickly as they had come. They had a spectacular career -- if one can say that of words -- then they fell into oblivion like a falling star that had burnt too brightly.
Madafaka and mofo. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
But, nothing better could have been created, so why would he suffer from low self-esteem?
Well, from his best-selling biography it's pretty clear god has very low self-esteem and personality problems - needing to be worshiped; needing to be feared, needing to always have his way, needing... no, needy, so needy. He can't even have a son without having to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy a rule he made himself... you get the point. Poor insecure fucker can't get anything right and needs constant validation/veneration.
universenessDecember 13, 2022 at 11:47#7633900 likes
Let us enjoy what is as it is, in full spectrum, fresh with the energy and emotion that reminds us why we get out of bed each morning to begin with- this thing we call Life.
So based on that, do you think @Shawn puts knickers on his pigs?
god must be atheistDecember 13, 2022 at 13:49#7634220 likes
Okay, no problem, I like to explain from time to time why god must be atheist. He does not believe in himself; he knows he exists. Humans don't know per se, that god exists. So humans believe in him. Those who do not believe in him are atheists.
God knows he exists. So he doesn't need belief. Those without belief are atheists. QED, god is an atheist.
god must be atheistDecember 13, 2022 at 13:57#7634230 likes
But, nothing better could have been created, so why would he suffer from low self-esteem?
God was not created. So nothing better could be created does discount things that have not been created. There are certain things that exist without creation, and god may feel insecure to share space with them.
Such things are: time (debatable), space, waters, darkness, gravity, directions. These are empirically evidenced in the Bible, when it says, "In the beginning the spirit of god floated above the waters."
There are other things that potentially existed, but have not been realized to exist yet: the law of non-contradiction, mathematics, logical structures, blow-jobs, and syllogisms.
So based on that, do you think Shawn puts knickers on his pigs?
Regrettably, that's not a thing I've had the privilege to fathom this life. Until now that is. I think any individual with such an affinity for pigs is quite well-rounded and at one with most if not all of the base joys of life. Such needless garb would be an artificial barrier between pig and purpose.
universenessDecember 13, 2022 at 15:01#7634340 likes
Such needless garb would be an artificial barrier between pig and purpose.
I carefully made no suggestions as to purpose. I just wondered that he might also include lipstick as perhaps a parody of Barak Obama being accused of insulting Sarah Palin with his comment:
'You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
Kind of an insane thought considering that over three million pigs are treated badly and slaughtered every day of the week.
I don't know, have you seen the damage a wild pig can do to a man's yard? It's awe-inspiring. Mostly considering none of it is really intentional. I really couldn't say who I'd bet on in unarmed combat, a group of three million pigs or three million men.
How can we care about Laura’s pig being treated badly when there are literally millions of pigs around the world being treated badly and slaughtered every day? It’s insane.
I agree, it seems like a travesty over what's happening to pigs around the world. But, Charlotte is a nice reminder of the sadness and brute suffering of pigs at large.
But, Charlotte is becoming happier every day. She's in better hands.
How can we care about Laura’s pig being treated badly when there are literally millions of pigs around the world being treated badly and slaughtered every day? It’s insane.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
@praxis can you draw an allegorical picture of a pig looking at a cross?
I have some other interesting artistic ideas of a pig sitting on a Freudian sofa with a psychologist asking it, "So why are you concerned about your future?" whilst eating eggs with ham or bacon. I'd title it "Appetite".
Will this help the democrats in the next election?
Does this act as a small respite for Americans, horrified by the overturn or roe vs wade?
Is the GOP beginning to regret their dalliance with all Trump alignments? This new law had cross party support.
Is America beginning to show some green shoots of progressive politics?
One can only hope!
I wonder when we will see something good come out of the current Westminster mob in the UK?
I wonder when we will see something good come out of the current Westminster mob in the UK?
When the guillotine is busy!
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 14:25#7641240 likes
Reply to unenlightened
A busy French guillotine - Current Westminster mob in the UK.
Connection?
Nicola Sturgeon just revealed her plans to tax the rich a bit more so, some good stuff coming out of Scotland. No striking nurses here either as Nicola managed to make a deal with them to, (well they have been given an improved offer they are going to vote on, on the 19th Dec)
Oh, I think I get what you mean now. You are simply suggesting that the best option for the British people is to decapitate every MP currently in Westminster.
Do you call for REVOLUTION sir? :scream:
unenlightenedDecember 15, 2022 at 14:44#7641320 likes
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 14:53#7641340 likes
Reply to unenlightened
You gonna do da choppin?
Lot's of claret involved sir!
Have you the psyche?
Could we not just vote them all out, ban party politics and start a new progressive political system?
Might take a bit longer but it might save you from seeing many horrible scene's in your head.
unenlightenedDecember 15, 2022 at 14:59#7641360 likes
Could we not just vote them all out, ban party politics and start a new progressive political system?
They've been around since the invasion of 1066, so I'm not holding my breath. We could do all that, but it doesn't seem to involve anything good coming out of them. You want some good to come out, you have to open them up.
You want some good to come out, you have to open them up.
Drawn and quartered?
Seems messy.
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 15:15#7641390 likes
Reply to unenlightened
I think we would be best to continue to introspect rather that start to vivisect bad MP's.
I agree, a dependable political system that is actually benevolent to the vast majority of those it represents, seems to be taking a long time to arrive but what we have now is better than what they had in Rome or during and after the English, French, Russian or Chinese revolutions.
unenlightenedDecember 15, 2022 at 15:17#7641400 likes
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 15:21#7641410 likes
Reply to unenlightened
Then rather than 'let them eat cake,' 'let them have UBI m'lud,' or else there will be civil disobedience at a national level. Hopefully non-violent, but that's up them.
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 15:26#7641420 likes
Gandhi did remind us that an eye for an eye can just make the whole world blind. We need wiser ways, but we must keep insisting, that we do insist, that governance MUST BE for, of, and by the people.
universenessDecember 15, 2022 at 15:36#7641460 likes
I know you really mean they have no bread NOW! and yes I agree.
Foodbanks and now ridiculous necessities like 'heat banks.' But look at what's happening, we are getting nearer to national strike conditions in the UK, whilst the tories give more handouts and more protections to the rich. They have lifted the cap on bankers bonuses, they wont significantly tax the disgusting profits of the energy companies. They wont cancel non-dom status. On and on it goes.
Even the economic 'middle' are struggling in the UK. Tick tick tick tick ....... BOOM! Will be the result, if they push the people too far. We are not the serfs or peasants of old!
Comments (61561)
Was that an example of Jamal, when one is in Hugh mode?
Its super, spiffing and sooooooo la-de-dah!
Shit film imo, so was the wasn't worth the wait follow up
:lol: Yep, both sides live and thrive in many a scot!
Trainspotting did nothing to help the massive drug problem in Scotland, in actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots involved in that horror. I think we need more people like Darren McGarvey and programs like Darren McGarvey's Scotland to highlight the drug horrors in Scotland. Have you saw any of his programs?
Well, it is a magnificent movie anyway.
I think that's ridiculous, and also mostly beside the point when judging the film.
Incidentally, it was my wife's favourite film even before I met her, but she was only dimly aware that it was based in Scotland, probably because she had watched a version dubbed into Russian, which I find hard to imagine.
Wan man's meat is anither man's poison Javi! (one man's meat is another man's poison).
but true.
You said it seriously, so it's clear that you believe it. Repeating it doesn't make it more convincing. I continue to think it's a ridiculous opinion, even though it seems to be shared by other pompous Scottishers. I mean, have you actually seen the movie? It's enough to scare anyone away from heroin.
Looked up some quotes from trainspotting!
How about in a Ruskie accent:
A leetle beet baad, a leetle beet craazy comrade but hey, do not uz gearlis just lov zat!
Yeah, I do now that's not what dubbed means! But hey ho!
Yes, saw it about 4 times, only once when I really wanted to. There is no pomposity in my claim. I am referring to some folks in the company watching the movie and their comments on it.
Such as, 'Yi wid need tae be as high as a kite tae run as fast as rent boy, that's so cool man,'
and many others I could quote uttered by those involved in the horrors of drug abuse.
You got a few things right there. Russian, like some other European languages, doesn't have the /?/ or /ð/ sounds, as in bit and that, respectively. Well done.
:grin: :up:
It's a long way from this to "Trainspotting ... actually helped glamorise it in the strange minds of many Scots", but this debate should be settled in the car park.
I searched in Google what does it means and it says: what is pleasant to one person may be unpleasant to another. Interesting phrase. It remembers me when I speak about tuna Tartare. It is pleasant for me but there a lot of people who actually hate it.
I had that a couple of weeks ago. It came with some sort of creamy foam, some black caviar, and slices of thin toast. I liked it a lot.
:up:
Yeah, I only gave you one of the less emotive quotes, I have many more from people who like drugs or take drugs, but I didn't what to ruffle your hair too much inside your own ivory tower.
Anywho? Its Friday, time to prepare for a fun evening. Type to you again soon, if I survive the night!
We can type more about your carpark idea then!
Enjoy.
That's the Jockbox over for today folks.
Yummy! :up: :yum:
Yes. I'm feeling nostalgic for @Shawn's pigs.
https://dailynous.com/2022/10/28/found-five-boxes-of-new-hegel/
There's never any good news these days.
So do I. What ever happened to @Shawn? I hope he's well and happy, like a pig in a mud hole.
There was irony in my comment, although I did not intend it to be unkind.
We are more exposed to each other on the forum than we would be in the check-in line at Whitney's Wholesale Whorehouse. So when people disappear, one wonders.
I always preferred that method. When I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go.
:grin: Are you offering me my own show on TPF? Can you click your heels together and make that happen? Would you?......... could you?
Ok, no more Wiz of Oz references, back to trainspotting.
I am sure I spotted Begbie on the train home last night but it was viewed through an alcofog so I cant swear to it. The guy looked the spit of Robert Carlyle!
Remember the chat here about how gangsters are portrayed in movies and how some garnish certain glamorised viewpoints about gangsters, despite the fact they mostly come to a nasty end. I see trainspotting as having a similar effect on druggies. Trainspotting 2 confirms all those bad boys survived their earlier dalliances with heroin, unlikely.
The film was as much about gangland culture as it was about druggies, would you agree?
I think the Irish know how to get it done properly, just slip out the backdoor. It's much better that way, because big drawn out goodbyes really kill a party. All that hugging and kissing starts happening and suddenly there's no one left at the party
But such Irish ninjas are socially slagged to death afterwards, amongst their friends/associates, for being party lightweights!
Humiliation from them is acceptable for the sake of the higher purpose. They don't know that the real reason for slipping out the back door is to move on to the next level of partying, to mingle with high society, at the upper echelons of the private, invitation only, "after party".
:razz: We obviously mix in very different circles. I don't know if that gives me the advantage or not.
What you call high society and private, invitation only, after party, etc, is often where, I imagine, the most horrible of people are to be found. I have only ever attended one or two such events in my life and those are the main conformations I have, along with what is shown on TV shows such as 'The real housewives of New York, Miami and goodness knows where else.' etc which I have had the misfortune of seeing a little of and TV celebrity shows like The Osbournes, The Kardashians etc, etc. :rage:
You're not wrong here, but I choose the later abuse over the abuse of openly trying to leave early, or even worse, being forced to remain longer than I wanted.
By now, though, I've left early enough that they've grown use to it, so it's no longer fun for them to say anything.
Introverts of the world unite!
My comment was intended to be amusing, not to say anything negative about Shawn.
Yes, there'll always be at least one Mrs Doyle to make you stay. Necessity is the mother of invention.
I was not familiar with Mrs. Doyle, so I watched a bunch of clips of her on YouTube. Really unfunny stuff. She must be a caricature of an Irish aunt or something. Persistent, unkempt, frazzled. I didn't get it.
C minus.
Now back to my porn..
Well when you get bored of all those hot naked bodies and feel a hankerin' for some more fish or spud cartoons, do let me know.
The re-release of Revolver gives us the opportunity to rehash the eternal question of which is the most important Beetles album.
Now it's obviously the one in which George finally gets to shine.
This remix took advantage of some technical trickery to break Paul and Ringo free of the single track in which they were imprisoned. Seems to me that this was done at the expense of too much compression, it all sounds a little flat. But I don't mind that as it also does allow a reconsideration of the rhythm section.
https://tidal.com/browse/album/256343593
Yep, that's an accordian.
Pffft
She works for mad catholic priest's man! Wouldn't you be a little mad yourself?
Quoting Banno
Aussie Bawbag!
Quoting Hanover
I wonder how long that party would last, as long as one between you and @Baden?
Quoting universeness
The Commonwealth fighting against itself! :eyes:
There is no commonwealth as wealth is not common.
You will get a Portuguese who don't like a Spaniard who don't consider themselves Spaniard but considers themselves a Basque or a Catalonian who don't like Spaniards who don't like a Portuguese and none of them like a banno ..... People are prickly little creatures. Remember this brilliant example from Spike Lee's 'Do the right thing?'
I don't get why the Portuguese appeared in the equation. It remembers me about the pseudo "Iberian" country that some nostalgic folks about the empire want to promote.
Basque and Catalonians consider themselves Spaniards... at least in a cultural matter. Politics is another stuff.
I think that's likely. Even here in Australia many older heroin users I've met have cited Trainspotting, William Burroughs novels and Velvet Underground songs as influences. But I suspect this only applies to those aged over 50. I saw the film when it came out, but can't remember much about it.
I have holidayed in Portugal 4 times and during those times I hardly ever heard a Portuguese, say anything nice about Spain or Spainards. I have never met a Basque person but I have met one Catalonian woman who was very insulted, when it was suggested she was Spanish. A very small sample size Javi but I think these viewpoints are widely held and run deep. Catalonia did vote for independence from Spain after all, even though the Spanish declared the vote illegal, and ridiculously tried to jail all of the Catalonian leaders involved at the time.
Portuguese people talking about Spain reminded me of many Scots talking about the English. A lot of historical anger that I agree, we would all benefit from not carrying from generation to generation.
But I still don't understand it. They are an independent country. So what is the clue of spitting on us? They had their empire and we had ours. They weren't even a part of Spain.
I was in Portugal too, the city of Porto. I remember it as backwards country, not well developed and not really "European". Nobody cares about Portugal after all... Brazil is more important nowadays.
Quoting universeness
They are now free. Pedro Sanchez freed them!
It's a disturbing film that you should add to your list as worth a look again, just to see how the 'movie' dramatic licence can be used too much for the 'shock and awe' or 'gangsta style titillation' scenes, just to make more money from the product.
I think the real life of many Scottish druggies is not necessarily on the fringes of the Scots crime world.
Many people being destroyed by drug addiction are not involved in criminality. A whole, very important group of equally suffering people and families are ignored by that assumption.
I remember one professional person relaying a story to the company I was in, that trainspotting reminded him of the time he was on cocaine, he hugged his newborn baby so tight and so much that him and his wife (also on cocaine) had to take the baby to hospital, and it was kept in for 9 days.
He talked about being haunted by the scene of the baby crawling over the ceiling, in trainspotting.
He joked that he needed a lot more cocaine after that experience.
Some people laughed. I didn't laugh.
I think the f***wit deserved to lose his family, as he eventually did.
You might find some of the viewpoints below, posted on quora, interesting:
https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-the-Portuguese-and-Spaniards-like-each-other
Yeah, but did you notice some of the comments had been deleted? What do you read into that?
If you scroll further down, you will see similar questions on quora and a large variety of responses to the questions posed.
Yeah, I don't know why Quora deleted them. I guess those comments didn't respect the rules of the website.
Quoting universeness
You are right, there are similar questions but most of them have the same answers. Only a few of them complain about Spain (well, I have to be more specific. They complain about Castile)
Yeah, I noticed some Portuguese seem to have a problem with Castile and many seem to want Olivenza back. That was intriguing because many Scots still have a problem with a border town called 'Berwick on Tweed,' that they think belongs to Scotland. I have been there many times. Very interesting locals with somewhat of a palpable national identity issue.
You get bigots on both sides. Did you read the rather unbalanced typing of:
Thing is, Spaniards today don’t give a damn about Portugal, Portuguese (some of them) however play the victim at all given time (no one whants to unite with them, unlike Portugeuse, Spanish are not obsessed with their neighbouts) and/or want Spain destroyed. I mean, right now Spaniards have way more reasons to want Portugal out of “their lives” than the other way around, Portugal is toxic as f***.
Had a wee look but it's all in Spanish. Looked for a wee tab, for an English version but I couldn't find one.
Completely agree with the folk who wrote that. Portugal is zero relevant for spaniah exterior affairs but for some reasons they want us to be destroyed or being split in dozens of parts, Catalonia getting the independence, etc...
While we don't care about them. When East Timor got his independence back in 1999 we didn't say to Portuguese folks: yeah [s]fuck[/s] you!. But probably they were happy when Spain lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines against USA army. Pathetic and such actions only can come from a childish nation.
[i]Olivenza is a town in southwestern Spain, near the Portuguese border, on a historically disputed section of the Portugal–Spain border. Its territory is administered by Spain as a municipality belonging to the province of Badajoz, and to the wider autonomous community of Extremadura.
The town of Olivença was under Portuguese sovereignty continuously between 1297 (Treaty of Alcañices) and 1801, when it was occupied by Spain during the War of the Oranges and ceded that year under the Treaty of Badajoz. Spain has since administered the territory (now split into two municipalities, Olivenza and also Táliga), whereas Portugal invokes the self-revocation of the Treaty of Badajoz, plus the Treaty of Vienna of 1815, to claim the return of the territory. In spite of the territorial dispute between Portugal and Spain, the issue has not been a sensitive matter in the relations between these two countries.
1977 – A Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between Spain and Portugal is signed, in which both countries ratified the integrity and inviolability of their respective territories, effectively assuming Olivenza is under Spanish control.
Olivenza and other neighbouring Spanish (La Codosera, Alburquerque and Badajoz) and Portuguese (Arronches, Campo Maior, Estremoz, Portalegre and Elvas) towns reached an agreement in 2008 to create a euroregion.[/i]
I think its unwise to make generalised statements about any nationality, such as, 'for some reasons they want us to be destroyed,' 'we don't care about them,' or the English and the Germans are arrogant, the Scots are mean with their money, the irish are... the americans are .... etc. Unless you have met every one of them and asked them, it's just an unwise way of talking about such a group.
Understandable. But apply such principle to yourself too because you were making negative/bad comments on Spain a few posts before...
I always like to read historical info, if its accurate, so thanks for that info. I could return the favour by giving you lots of info on why 'Berwick on tweed,' became disputed between Scotland and England.
I suppose such territoriality disputes are why so many are dying in Ukraine right now.
We need to stop doing stuff like that, permanently! Do you agree?
My earlier comments were about the nefarious Spanish rich and powerful of the past and any Spaniard who still holds similar beliefs to those vile Spanish empire builders but please understand that the fact they were Spanish is the most unimportant word I included in my critique. You can replace the word Spaniard with any nationality you like and all you would have to do then, is change the dates and events involved. The principles would be almost identical. My opinion about past Spanish monarchies and empire building and the genocide they visited on the native peoples of South America remains a damming one as it is for all monarchies and empires.
Expansion is usually in a nation's cold interest, if they can manage it. Expansion gives a nation access to more resources and markets. National interest may coincide with personal opportunity, so brave explorers (agents of imperialism, colonialism, expansion) fulfill the national interest. Not nice, of course.
It's not nice because the expanded-upon get the short, crappy end of the stick.
Have large groups of people ever behaved differently? Well... maybe when we were sparsely populated hunter-gatherers, we didn't have cold interests yet--but that was a very long time ago. Most nations occupy territory that has been the site of past expansion. Who did the Romans take the Iberian peninsula from? The Visigoths took it away from the Romans. Later the Moors took it away from the Visigoths. Then the successors to the Visigoths took it away from the Moors. Northward, various peoples of Europe were replaced in waves of westward migration. And so on, all over the globe.
If there is not so much expansionary behavior among nations today, it is because risk to the nation's cold interest balances out opportunity. Hitler almost succeeded, but was thoroughly beaten. Putin is making a serious play for Ukraine, and whether he will succeed or not is still in doubt. Even if Putin loses, Ukraine will have sustained tremendous losses. If Putin wins, Russia will have sustained significant losses (at least in the long run).
The lumber/agriculture invasion of the Amazon rain forest is an internal national expansion, predation upon native people and a vital rain forest.
We who have benefitted from past expansions, as harsh as they were, are loathe to even think of undoing the expansion. The USA has no intention of undoing its westward expansion (and in fact, can't undo it). The British can't undo the fact of their past empire. Neither can the Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Chinese, or anybody else -- anywhere.
There is no such thing as national behaviour, there are only accusations about particular humans behaving in the perceived stereotypical manners I suggested in my response to Javi.
Quoting Bitter Crank
No offense but really, No shit Sherlock!
Quoting Bitter Crank
All human groups, including national ones work in their own interests but many such interests are in fact common, as we all know and appreciate, food, shelter, water, security, heath, prosperity, significance etc etc. We all need to see that truth and send out the same message everywhere. WE ALL HAVE THE SAME NEEDS. We need to unite and stop the nefarious few from having all the power and control over our planet's resources.
Quoting Bitter Crank
You are referring to the way things were and possibly still the way things still are between many countries BUT thats perhaps part of the reason why the human race is not doing as well as they could be doing. Time for significant change, or do you think we should just keep repeating the same old dumb mistakes and wars based on the same old BS fears?
Quoting Bitter Crank
Your question should not be about 'have' but it should be about 'can.' Do you really think that history has the best examples of what a human civilisation can be or do you think we could do better?
Quoting Bitter Crank
So, do you think we can behave better than this in the future? Is what's happening in Ukraine, and in so many other places not utterly revolting to you?
Quoting Bitter Crank
You don't need any more examples. I am already convinced our species needs to develop better ways. How about you?
Quoting Bitter Crank
Total BS imo. WE ARE ALL the USA and the British and the Germans, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Chinese and anybody else. Take your bit of the responsibility! Don't try to pass yourself off as not a member of any of the nationalities you mention. Just ensure YOU become as much a part of the solution as you can and don't ever be part of the problem. THEN our joined voices and actions may change the way our world is right now. If we all hate the way things are so much then it's up to us to change it. There is NO QUESTION about who is responsible for the way things are, the answer is YOU, ME, all of us.
I am just trying to show that anyone can be as cranky as the bitterest of cranks.
We can't keep complaining about a world WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR!
We can't blame the dinosaurs or fictitious gods or the animals or the insects.
I just get a little frustrated sometimes that our species seems still so backwards and unable to grow up and take responsibility for its own history!
Well, ok then...
It's true, potatoes do have chips on their shoulders.
No snoozing in the shoutbox please, wake up and take a look around your planet!
*Ziiing*
"Just draw pictures." :brow:
Good for you, shame if this happens in the background:
Let's hope enough of us are paying enough attention to always prevent it.
I wasn't arguing in favor of national interests leading to the kind of history we have (going back to Uruk the first city-state). I was arguing in favor of acknowledging, not admiring, 'realpolitik'. We can't improve ourselves as individuals until we recognize our faults.
Quoting universeness
Sure there is. It is derived from plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, etc. that have accumulated across particular administrations.
Quoting universeness
Quoting universeness
We all have the same needs, but we don't all have the same wishes or power to fulfill them.
Quoting universeness
Whether we can be better is THE perennial question, and as far as I know, there is no overwhelming evidence that we can. We WISH we were better than we are, but the problem is in better performance. We are a neurotic species, so I'm not holding my breath waiting.
Have the bars all closed? Are there no comedy clubs? Have you no porn? Has the Internet shut down?
Realpolitik has been real since way before Uruk, but yeah I agree the first step to a cure is admitting you are ill.
Quoting Bitter Crank
And you believe that such makes a person more American than Australian?
Quoting Bitter Crank
Let's deal with the basic needs of all of us first and then deal with any differences that cause us to kill each other due to individual 'wishes' and our individual power to fulfil such.
Quoting Bitter Crank
WE CAN! The proof is that we have already demonstrated that we can, by the improvements we have already made, since the days of the ancients. The people of Uruk had no welfare state or bill of human rights! The human race has made incredible advances, within a very small timeframe, if you consider the cosmic calendar scale.
Then pay attention boy!
You might enjoy this: Significant human settlements, possibly city size, up to 11,000 years before Uruk.
I'm listening to The Stooges "I wanna be your Dog" sitting in my car in the rain while my wife early votes at the park activity center.
This is how the power that controls the world will be decided.
I don't get why the Portuguese even exist on the planet. They are not Spanish, nor are they French. Their existence seems to be rooted in a desire for independence. Then you go to Brazil and find millions of people who want to speak Portuguese. What's that all about?
Why should they be Spanish or French? Because their country is near those countries? At best, this is a stupendously silly comment.
Quoting universeness
You misread me. "Plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, etc." were applied to states, not individuals. That is what makes the United States different than Australia in terms of "national interest". India, Iran, Italy, Ireland, Indonesia, etc. all have distinct interests because of their particular histories. Of course, individuals have distinct histories too, which contributes to our uniqueness, but treaties, international debt, and so on probably have little effect on individual personality.
All that said, a given delusional, neurotic or psychotic leader can make very crazy politics for everyone.
Some chattering class anthropologist (not sure, might have been Stephen Pinker) wrote a book (can't remember--might have been The Better Angels of our Nature) about how humans have achieved a more civil, peaceful society compared to our hunter-gatherer stone-wielding ancestors. The key advancement that made this possible was a strong state. A strong state can enforce more peaceful, civil behavior.
When and where state authority is diminished, we see a rapid up-tick in bad behavior.
It isn't the WE got better, but our collective commitment to civil behavior (via a civil society) got better. I'm grateful for that. I like to go out at night with confidence that thugs aren't liking behind every tree.
(By the way, "the better angels of our nature" is from Abraham Lincoln. On one shoulder sits an angel, on the other sits a devil, each one trying to guide our behavior. It's a nice representation of our conflicting urges.)
Verbal diarrhea.
Great crime series on Netflix from Brazil: "Good Morning, Veronica".
There have been some wonderful, tough female lead characters lately.
It appears you correctly interpreted what was meant, even affording me the best. How perceptive of you. Most people completely misunderstand me, assigning the worst.
How very odd.
Quoting Jamal
For whatever reason, good luck.
Portugal was born due to an act of "independence" from Castile. But they only got a small part of the Iberian peninsula because Galicia is Spanish. When Ferdinand and Isabella united all the kingdoms of Spain in only one they proposed the same issue to Portuguese folks but they said "no" because they are very proud of themselves. Small country with proud citizens.
Thanks. That video is unavailable so I'll just assume it's motivational and life-affirming.
[quote=Hank Williams Jr]corn bread and ice tea took the place of pills and 90-proof[/quote]
Yep, that's me.
Seeing the "jr" in Hank's name, I did some light digging. I didn't know there were two Hank Williamses.
I don't see the distinctions you are making, and I don't concur with the reasons you are citing.
A Kentuckian is quite a different 'nationality' that a New Yorker. They are both American but there are traditional, cultural differences between the groups. Not at the level of individuals, these cultural differences are very generalised/subjective/applied with too wide a brush. Are Americans all big boastful narcissists with no class or taste? Do all Australians wear hats with corks hanging from them, shorts, and have names like Bruce and Sheila and do they all carry boomerangs?
I see little difference in the national interests of a country compared to the interests of the ancient city states. Cultural/Religious differences have always been used as an excuse that the nefarious use to incite their soldiers to slaughter another people. 'We need to kill them and take their lands because we are civilised and chosen by god and they are savages and need to be civilised by us.' It was BS then and its BS now.
Quoting Bitter Crank
We have so much evidence of this, past and present, so, surely priority number 1 is that we must all state that we will all work to prevent a politician, leader being able to get into or maintain power after they have demonstrated they are delusional, neurotic, psychotic, liars etc. In the UK, we seem to be able to get rid of such bad leaders quite quickly. More quickly than we ever have been able to before. In places like Russia, they can still become an autocratic totalitarian, and cause major wars. The Russian people are mainly responsible for allowing this to happen. The Russian people have the same needs as we do, no matter what plans, politics, commitments, treaties, debts, assets, their 'country/nation/leaders' dance around with. If all peoples worked towards global unison, then it wouldn't really matter which resources were abundant/scarce in which 'country.' To each according to their need, from each according to their ability. Control over the means of production, distribution and exchange should be as automated as possible and should be owned by and exist for the benefit of all and not exclusively for the (via the money trick) maintenance and continued plutocracy of a nefarious few.
See if you can figure out which is Hank Williams Sr, Jr., and III:
I broadly agree but I don't agree that the majority of the members of the human race are ignorant children who have to be forced into behaving like civilised cooperative, unselfish, creatures.
If you don't suffer from mental illness, then you normally can be reasoned with. WE CAN create a decent global human civilisation through a democratic socialist/humanist based politics where the authority is of, for and by the people and employs some kind of resource based global economy. That's what I think will massively improve the lives of the current mass of poor, dissatisfied humanity that exists on this planet. I think there are billions of people who continue to try to improve the way things are done and the way people are treated. I am with them, and I think, in truth. you are to, as I suspect all reasonable thinkers on TPF would also choose to be.
I did some research and found that III begot the illegitimate Coleman Williams. In case you want to see what the next generation of American country music looks like: https://tkoco.com/portfolio/coleman-williams-iv-and-the-strange-band/ It's a bit of a throwback with the rhinestones and long sideburns.
I certainly wasn't a country music fan when I was younger, but I remember hearing "Why don't you love me" in "The Last Picture Show." I really loved it. When I was a junior in college, my roommate Ari, a Jewish kid from Boston, somehow got a hold of HW's greatest hits. He used to play it when my friend Gene, a black kid from New Jersey, came over to drive him out of the room. They didn't like each other. I got to like HW even better.
He died the Year I was born. Sometimes I hear one of his songs and am amazed at how good he was.
"If the South Woulda Won, We Woulda had it Made"
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd make my Supreme Court down in Texas
And we wouldn't have no killers getting off free
If they were proven guilty, then they would swing quickly
Instead of writing books and smiling on TV
We'd all learn Cajun cooking in Louisiana
And I'd put that capital back in Alabama
We'd put Florida on the right track, 'cause we'd take Miami back
And throw all them pushers in the slammer
Oh, if the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
The day young Skynyrd died, we'd show our southern pride
If the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
"Play a little dixieland boys, ah yes"
I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee
And all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills
The national treasury would be in Tupelo, Mississippi
And I'd put Hank Williams picture on 100 dollar bills
I'd have all the cars made in the Carolinas
And I'd ban all the ones made in China
I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
And talk with that Southern accent that drives men wild
I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia
'Cause they sure can make 'em sound so fine
I'm going up on Wolverton Mountain and see ole Clifton Clowers
And have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine
Hey, if the South woulda won, we'd a had it made
I'd probably run for President of the Southern States
When Patsy Cline passed away, that would be our national holiday
If the South woulda won, we'd a had it made, olay he hee hee
I said if the South woulda won, we woulda had it made
Might even be better off
Her music never struck me as particularly country. More pop music like Frank Sinatra or Ella Fitzgerald. Now Hank Williams, he was as country as a whittled stick.
I used to whittle sticks in the suburbs.
You were whittling. If you were a country boy, you would have been whittlin'.
Well, they used (and I am aware that today is spooky time) a disgusting paint of Pipi. First I laughed, now I am horrified. I want to share the screenshot and see your thoughts on the "infatile cartoon" of Pipi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking
Look the face of the cartoon... if I am not on guard she would kill me or touch me without my permission
The lasciviousness on her face is projected by your mind, not from the paint. I just see a cartoon.
The problem could be in my mind indeed. But I still see the cartoon as lascivious. Too much gore porn I guess :death:
flickr · facebook · petapixel
[sup]clouds casting shadows seen from 354km altitude[/sup]
Sunset from the cloud's point of view.
North is up so it must be sunrise.
Crazy. No, not you. Or her.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/paul-pelosi-conspiracy-theory-trends-elon-musk-1234621217/
Discuss.
Everyone they tested in 350BC was a socialist. Everyone they tested today was called Donald Trump or were a member/supporter of the American Republican party.
:100: Good digit! It reflects how active you are around here!
I wasn't aware there was good pizza until you said this. Or, are you saying all pizza is shit but that one example was appalling even for pizza?
You eat rocks for breakfast, so I'm not going to expend any energy as an apologist on pizza's behalf.
Oh, that's right. Duh.
Fucking roasted dough! I've cracked three or four teeth in my lifetime, each and every one being the result of chewing roasted dough. Everyone's a baker, whether or not they know how to knead. The pie is a skill best left to the experts.
Added to my running list of fake band names.
I like making up band names too, to whit:
As you can see, "boom" is a big favorite.
https://lingojam.com/PigLatinTranslator
Alternatively:
Anyay importantyay ewnay esourceray. Eway avehay ooglegay orfay ostmay anslationstray. Ere'shay ayay anslatortray orfay igpay atinlay.
https://ingojamlay.com/pigatinlayanslatortray
A few from the vault:
Medium Dead - Stoner rock
The Dythyramblers - Drunken blue grass
Pat Mastelotto Plays An Ostinato - A cover band that plays songs on which Pat played drums
Don't order acorns on it next time.
Yours are more esoteric than mine. Mine are all for pop/rock or country groups. Some more:
This is my favorite. May I suggest Donnie and the Trumps, or even better, Donnie and the Dumps. Or Donnie in the Dumps.
Remember, you started it.
My dad used to call them aye-curns. He also called bolts boats and Koreans co-ree-uns.
Other than that, he talked pretty normal.
What did he call boats?
@Jamal @Baden et al.
Short-Story Competition
When is it happening in December; start to end?
How are the participants warming up?
When will the inspiration strike? Last minute...or right now?
Will this article get the juices flowing?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/nov/05/i-want-to-open-a-window-in-their-souls-haruki-murakami-on-the-power-of-writing-simply
You should watch this:
Number thirteen will be still my favourite number anyway :wink:
Maybe you should have it as your name
Thanks for that.
Waiting to buy tickets to the hologram tour.
Great graphics. Reminds me I need to reread "Life's Ratchet" by Peter Hoffman.
As I've said many times before, I am not a theist - I don't have any specific religious beliefs. But I think there is value in a religious way of seeing things, perhaps not for me but for some people. I've been thinking about starting a thread with the goal of explaining that position. Not sure if I will or not.
I just thought you might find Sam's viewpoint interesting in that particular offering.
The thread you suggest sounds interesting but would no doubt flame both sides.
I accept you are not a theist. I am defensive of the non-preaching theist, myself, but I agree with Mr Harris that theism does not warrant any special dispensation or respect.
Perhaps, but I'd be willing to take a chance if I thought it would help me get my head together on the subject. That's generally why I start discussions.
Quoting universeness
I don't agree, but I don't have my arguments together enough to justify my disagreement right now. I'll work on it.
I think you should. I would contribute, which is saying a lot.
I think that would be an interesting thread, I'd like to see this too.
Quoting Tom Storm
I've tried to get one started in my mind a couple of times, but it always peters out. I'm hoping making a public declaration will embarrass me into finally doing it.
Manana.
You say your thoughts on theism peter out. Mr. Clark: you should know that whatever you say about religion will spark a discussion; the partisans will swarm out of the woodwork to support and/or denounce one another's views, universeness among them.
So get your (a?)theistic thoughts in order and thread the needle.
I like this. [s]Perhaps[/s] I'll steal it and use it in the OP of my "Why religion am good" thread. Strike that - I am going to use it in my OP. Objections?
Quoting Bitter Crank
I like to think I start threads, when I do, to clarify my own thinking. I'm not interested in a brawl or a free-for-all. That's why I try to be very specific in my opening posts about what is and is not included in the discussion.
You respect its use in war, oppression, and other nasty stuff?
Yes.
Orson Welles? I don't follow.
:grin: You're like one of the agitators they churn out to give preambles on the big build up to the 'Thrilla in Manilla' or 'the rumble in the jungle.' Do you see this image sometimes when you look in the mirror darkly? :joke:
Having said that, You're right! I will try to evidentially support my 'Quoting universeness
position.
Btw: Billions of people believe in the evolution of species, do theists give that any special dispensation or respect?
A scene from 'the third man.' I think the message is 'beware of who is hiding in the shadows.' :scream:
They will use religion, science and even YOU! To achieve their goals.
If government is to anarchy as theism is to atheism, then if the solution to theistic evil is atheism, then the solution to governmental evil is anarchy.
That is, if dirty bathwater requires the the throwing out the baby, let us be consistent and eliminate all human organizations that have resulted in harm.
To claim theists reject evolution assumes "theism" is a specific belief system with a universally held theology. It's not. If it were, we wouldn't have countless religions claiming to be theistic. That is, theism is a category within which many religions fall.
So, if you wish to explain why you disagree with Oneness Pentecostalism, for example, you may offer some good reasons, but you'd have no reason to think those would apply to Episcopalians or to Orthodox Judaism (another Abrahamic religion).
You also assume that each of these religions rely on the same liturgy in forming their beliefs, and so what follows are incorrect interpretations of the theology, arguing against positions not held by anyone.
Instead, the arguments never go beyond a reading of the first few chapters of Genesis, as if the volumes and tens of thousands of pages of interpretation that occured over thousands of years that followed are not actually what the religion is.
Instead, what is argued is "theism is stupid because it holds that snakes talk people into eating apples."
There is no fundamental reason that I know of for theists denying evolution. They might deny it -- and woe unto them if they do. Clearly god has options about how to carry out creation. On the scale of a 13+ billion year old universe, the word [theism] has barely been spoken.
The Gospel According to the Chad Mitchell Trio (1965) Rhymes for the Irreverent
God made the world in six days flat
On the seventh He said, "I'll rest"
So He let the thing into orbit swing
To give it a dry run test
A billion years went by
Then He took a look at the whirling blob
His spirits fell as He shrugged
"Ah well, it was only a six-day job"
War, oppression, and a lot of other nasty stuff goes on in the world. Theism, Deism, Atheism, and every other religious 'ism' will be pressed into service.
As Kant says, "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind."
Steal this book, but give the bookstore credit as the source.
I can respect the baby (spirituality) but not the bathwater (religion). Analogically, I can respect government, like a functioning democracy, but not tribalism.
Your posts are not "provocations". You avoid inflammatory words; you don't call religious people imbeciles, for instance. Even if they hold stupid ideas (and yes, there are stupid ideas), people don't like their views being labeled that way. They tend to react strongly. It can be a real challenge to keep one's fingers from autonomously hitting the s-t-u-p-I-d I-m-b-e-c-i-l-e keys.
Your posts are concise and clear. The fewer murky sentences, the less garbage they attract.
You follow the good advice of freshman comp teachers: avoid clichés, glittering generalities, weasel words, and jargon. You put the hay down where serious goats can get at it.
Enough already with the positive, unconditional regard. You'll get all puffed up.
There are worse things than death. Like potato salad.
Aw, shucks. Oops, you were right.
Bad coleslaw offends me more. There's hardly a food I can think of that should be so easy to get right but is so often very very wrong.
Right?! Best I've had was in this remote hole-in-the-wall place.
I know. Like oral sex.
Your spuds always look like they’re sweating to me, which adds a strange layer of tension to each strip. :eyes:
Ha no sorry. I’m all smug because it looks likely to be published but I don’t want to dox myself when it comes out so I’m being vague lol. It’s a sub field journal and a newish one, don’t mind me I’ll just humblebrag in the corner
I am quite willing to focus on an exclusively theistic/theosophist/god(s)/supernatural against a materialist/scientific view of the universe if you like. The fact there are many religions is just evidence that they can't all be correct, but they could (and imo ARE) all be incorrect. If someone thinks evolution is incorrect, then it seems that it is perfectly ok to disrespect it and assign it no credence or special dispensation, even though it is based on massive scientific evidence backed by global academic expertise. The evidence for theism or any religion you care to name is 0. Yet there is a social/historical malevolent demand that it MUST BE respected and given special dispensation? Even when it is based only on exaggerated word of mouth renditions of claimed witness recollection, or ancient written texts, with very tenuous links with historical facts, which themselves are unreliable, as they were written by victors and their supportive biographers. Were any of the Roman historical writers independents, for example? Can you really trust the writings of captured characters that turned traitor such as Josephus (Flavius!)? Why should the theosophistic story of Gilgamesh not be given the same respect and special dispensation as the Christians demand the gospels merit or should those who think that the story of the mighty Thor is a nonsense fable be allowed to say the exact same to a Christian or Muslim about Christian or Islamic or any other theistic/religious story without being physically threatened in response.
I am happy to confirm that many theists and even some Christians and Muslims don't deny evolution and I am happy to admit that some scientists are religious. I also want to highlight the fact that many theists/religious people do not accept evolution and do not assign it any special dispensation or respect, despite the weight of evidence and academic rigor behind it. Yet these same people and their defenders such as @TClark expect nonbelievers to respect their viewpoints and remain loathe to challenge them in the same 'gloves off' manner that they apply to atheistic viewpoints.
The point being, if you want to debate the theists, you'll need to focus on particular theistic belief systems and not just the weakest forms of it. Otherwise, your debate will just be over the validity of evolution, a position no one here really meaningfully questions.
So far, from this limited discussion, you'd think theism is reducable to a few chapters of literally interpreted Genesis.
Yay Invizzy!
Consciousness can be explained by evolutionary processes?
If it can't, then what does explain it?
I asked first.
"Free speech" absolutists should have a read.
Great article. Free speech absolutists never listen though.
Quoting praxis
"is determined by" is clearer language.
Quoting Noble Dust
Good. I want to be David Lynch not Charles Schulz. My journey continues. :pray:
:up:
That's not how the Guardian's asked the question, perhaps by design.
Journalists... :sad:
I don't understand why evolution wouldn't offer as much an explanation for the development of mental powers as it does for physical development. In even the simplest of animals, a significant amount of the physical attributes exist to provide mental input into the organism. That is, you can't reasonably argue that a fish's eye is explainable by evolution yet the consciousness of the image received through the eye is not. Such would imply a pre-existing consciousness waiting for the physical body to catch up and provide some input.
I will save methods of 'debating the theists,' and employ them based on the threads on offer.
Genisis is merely one of hundreds perhaps thousands of creation myths. Genesis holds no primacy for me.
Strikes me as a non-starter. The theistic position from my perspective isn't one demanding proof, but only that it's compatible with rationality and modern scientific notions. If your position is that atheism and theism are both reasonable options, then we agree. If your position is that theism is not reasonable, then that would be an affirmative statement demanding proof.
But, to the extent you are only saying that theism is not provable, I agree. Such is faith.
This is either a so-far unnamed logical fallacy or a brilliant rhetorical strategy. Or both.
I would personally declare myself as of the strong atheist persuasion in that I am 99.9% convinced that no god/universal mind/supernatural phenomena exists. But I accept that position is personal opinion, and I cannot prove the nonexistence of god/a universal mind/supernatural phenomena.
Yes. But, in the latter two cases, it can be well challenged with the proposition, "I asked second."
Is that a self-portrait or Darwin? Plato? Darwin died 140 years ago. Plato about 2,400. How far from 1882 is the distant future.
The origins of both the mind and life are both the subjects of serious scientific study. "Not yet fully understood" is not the same as mysterious or unknowable.
My particular favorite logical fallacy/rhetorical strategy was first formalized by renowned philosopher P.W. Herman:
Yup, that's a pretty outstanding example. I somehow intuit that this particular logical fallacy / rhetorical strategy has morphed into what has nowadays become the staple "talk to the hand" argument among certain circles. But, yea, this pales by comparison to your current favorite.
This is an interesting way of putting it, although I'm not sure whether or not it matches the most commonly understood meaning of "faith."
It's faith to the extent I don't question it despite it lacking the sort of proof we typically require for most other things we accept as true. On the other hand, if I held a belief that I would typically reject based upon it being logically untenable or it being shown by the evidence to be untrue, then I do think I would be hard pressed to explain how I'm not guilty of special pleading.
However, nothing here suggests I should reject a belief that has positive consequences and that otherwise is unknowable.
Consider the following article on William James:
"Because we do not naturally experience the supernatural, James, the radical empiricist, thinks of faith in God as falling short of knowledge. Yet such faith is pragmatically meaningful to many people, and it is reasonable to wonder whether, how, and to what extent it can be justified. For James, the logical philosopher trained in science, both logic and science have limits beyond which we can legitimately seek the sentiment of rationality. His notorious “Will to Believe” essay is designed to be a defense of religious faith in the absence of conclusive logical argumentation or scientific evidence. It focuses on what he calls a “genuine option,” which is a choice between two hypotheses, which the believer can regard as “living” (personally meaningful), “forced” (mutually exclusive), and “momentous” (involving potentially important consequences). Whether an option is “genuine” is thus relative to the perspective of a particular believer. James acknowledges that in our scientific age, there is something dubious about the voluntaristic view that, in some circumstances, we can legitimately choose to believe in the absence of any objective justification. However, he claims we naturally do so all the time, our moral and political ideas being obvious examples. When you believe that your mother loves you or in the sincerity of your best friend, you have no conclusively objective evidence. In addition, you will never be able to secure such evidence. Yet it often seems unreasonable to refuse to commit to believing such matters; if we did so, the pragmatic consequences would be a more impoverished social life. Indeed, in some cases, believing and acting on that belief can help increase the chances of the belief being true. Now let us apply this argument to religious belief. What does religion in general propose for our belief? The two-pronged answer is that ultimate reality is most valuable and that we are better off if we believe that. Committing to that two-pronged belief is meaningful, as is the refusal to do so. At any given moment, I must either make that two-pronged commitment or not; and how I experience this life, as well as prospects for a possible after-life, may be at stake. Whether one makes that commitment or not, pragmatic consequences can be involved. Nor should we imagine that we could avoid having to make a choice, as the commitment not to commit is itself a commitment (Will, pp. 1-4, 7-9, 11-14, 22-30; see also Problems, pp. 221-224)."
https://iep.utm.edu/james-o/#SH3a
In what way is this any evidence that god exists? Sometimes your mother does not love you and sometimes she does, no god required.
You choose to make Pascals wager.
I simply demand that if god or the supernatural exists then show up and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. You say you can be satisfied with mere faith without any evidence.
I don't see how that is different from having faith that orcs live under your house or the mighty Thor is real.
Whenever I hear this kind of argument I generally respond that we can demonstrate the existence of one's mother and best friend and we can also identify behavior congruent with expressions of love or care. When behavior is abusive, we might question that love or care. We may not ever have certainty about others, but we can have reasonable confidence. God doesn't even get there.
As an atheist, I don't think there is much point arguing with people who hold to a sophisticated theology. They generally don't pose the kind of problem the unsophisticated fundamentalists do. The difference between me and a believer is not down to IQ, it's socialization and my lack of the sensus divinitatis. Incidentally, the better critics of Christianity are Christians, which is why I tend to enjoy Bishop John Shelby Spong and David Bentley Hart rather than Dawkins et al.
Thanks! It’s been a long time coming, it’s in part based on my Masters, which I finished a couple of years ago, the wheels of academia move slow :)
How about Professor Bart Ehrman or Doctor Robert Price (despite the fact he is a political nitwit republican)? Price was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Montclair, New Jersey and Ehrman became a born again evanhellical. Both now atheists. There are many other academics who are highly qualified in theology who are now atheist based on the contradictions they found as they delved deeper and deeper into the religious doctrines they studied.
Quoting universeness
Contradictions? The issue here for me is that the Bible is allegory. Usually only the fundies see the Bible as some kid of positivist text - which is a more recent phenomenon. I grew up in the Baptist tradition in the 1970's. I was taught that the Bible stories were metaphors, not factual. And this is where sophisticated theological models comes in. None of which I can be arsed exploring right now. :wink:
This is addressed in the William James article I attached.
A pragmatically based will to believe does not equate to a will to make believe.
One way to atheism is through study; religions contain contradictions and these may prove fatal to the faith of the scholar. Another way to atheism is erosion of the social connections to the community of faith. In this case, faith is buttressed by communal sharing and a loss of that communal sharing may lead to a loss of faith. Young people leaving home, going to college, and being immersed in a new community, for instance, may depart from their faith.
A third route to loss-of-faith is the abrasion that arises from the gap between the professions of the official religion and secular realities. If "God's eye is on the sparrow", ["Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?" (Matthew 6:26)] how is that humans so often suffer grievously from harm they did not cause themselves? [Of course, we suffer a lot by our own stupidity. That's an altogether different problem]
There are more paths away from belief, but the point is, it isn't always deficient doctrine.
So where did Original Sin come from? St Augustine, largely devised the theory of original sin. He thought that original sin was transmitted from generation to generation through sexual intercourse. Augustine did not say exactly how this happened.
Let's not be too hard on St. Augustine. He liked sex and prayed, "'Lord make me pure but not yet!'"
Plenty of Christians I have met think original sin is baloney. Bishop Shelby Spong, who was an American Episcopalian said, “Original sin is a lie against our humanity. It’s time we identify it and move beyond it,”
It is not only metaphor that provides flexibility in determining biblical meaning, but so does attempts at literalism.
Genesis 1:1 to 1:3, King James version:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Richard Friedman, a biblical scholar's version:
"In the beginning of God's creating the skies and the earth when the earth had been shapeless and formless, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and God's spirit was hovering on the face of the waters, God said, "Let there be light." And there was light."
https://www.cse.msu.edu/~weinshan/Intelligent%20Design%20Debate%20WEINSHANK%203-19-02%20FOR%20POSTING%20ON%20WEB%20SITE/sld035.htm
The distinction between the two is critical. The first referencing God creating the world from nothing at all (creatio ex nihilo) and the second describing a pre-existing world that God has added order to.
There is a legitimate literalist interpretation that would result in God not having created the universe, which means Creationism is not a proper interpretation of the Bible.
BTW, Harvey Cox, an American Theologian at Harvard (now 93) wrote ON NOT LEAVING IT TO THE SNAKE (1969) in which he argued that the trouble with Adam and Eve isn't that they ate the forbidden fruit. They were intended to eat it. Their 'sin' was in allowing some snake to seduce them into eating it, rather than making up their own minds.
Indeed. Another dimension to all of this. Thanks. Thinking back, I'm fairly sure I was taught that god brought order and goodness to chaos and did not create the world as such.
Isn't the snake the only being which talks truth in Genesis? One wonders how the snake knew what the fruit could do?
I know that's the Mormon position.
Yeah, sometimes it's deficient actions... The Inquisition!
Quoting Baden
Obviously, they're too busy speaking freely.
The other explanation is that it's just a simple etiological fable, attempting to explain why pregnancy is painful, people have to work, and why snakes have no legs, never intended as literal, but just a story.
The concept of an accurate historical narrative, where sources are checked and verified, is a modern notion.
Maybe people just spun yarns to try and offer explanations, with much less concern on scientific validity than we have now.
I think that even this is a modern notion. It's a modern projection to imagine that in this pre-modern world it was ok to just make up stories in order to create some hypothetical sense of history as we know it now. Another case of modern projection unto the past; a world which we can never know.
Of course, it may be an etiological fable. It is still a story that can be interpreted, rather than having an obvious literal meaning. I think it's worthwhile for theologians to find other meanings.
I don't know to what degree the historical texts in the OT are representative of actual events, but the creation chapters are obviously not historical. Same for Noah's flood, etc. Its a-historicity makes it all the more irritating when people read it literally. Same for various other tales.
Quoting Hanover
Yarn-spinning for sure, but with more purpose than producing a tale that people would sit still to hear. The OT, like the NT, was assembled over time, with different sections serving different purposes. The Song of Solomon and Leviticus had different functions in pre-diaspora Judaism, but they both belong (which you already know).
Well, sure. They weren't concerned with "scientific validity". My 25¢ intuition is that we have always had a need for some kind of explanation for what ever it was that happened. Every now and then our ancient ancestors even figured out what happened. Like, too big a fire in the cave may cause the ceiling of the cave to collapse, smashing whoever it landed on. Or that fish and visiting Neanderthals stink after three days.
Quoting Bitter Crank
This is from "Against Interpretation" by Susan Sontag. I don't know if what she says is right, but it's interesting. I added some paragraph breaks because the original was one long paragraph and I found it hard to read.
[i]What situation could prompt this curious project for transforming a text? History gives us the materials for an answer. Interpretation first appears in the culture of late classical antiquity, when the power and credibility of myth had been broken by the “realistic” view of the world introduced by scientific enlightenment. Once the question that haunts post-mythic consciousness—that of the seemliness of religious symbols—had been asked, the ancient texts were, in their pristine form, no longer acceptable. Then interpretation was summoned, to reconcile the ancient texts to “modern” demands.
Thus, the Stoics, to accord with their view that the gods had to be moral, allegorized away the rude features of Zeus and his boisterous clan in Homer’s epics. What Homer really designated by the adultery of Zeus with Leto, they explained, was the union between power and wisdom. In the same vein, Philo of Alexandria interpreted the literal historical narratives of the Hebrew Bible as spiritual paradigms. The story of the exodus from Egypt, the wandering in the desert for forty years, and the entry into the promised land, said Philo, was really an allegory of the individual soul’s emancipation, tribulations, and final deliverance.
Interpretation thus presupposes a discrepancy between the clear meaning of the text and the demands of (later) readers. It seeks to resolve that discrepancy. The situation is that for some reason a text has become unacceptable; yet it cannot be discarded. Interpretation is a radical strategy for conserving an old text, which is thought too precious to repudiate, by revamping it. The interpreter, without actually erasing or rewriting the text, is altering it. But he can’t admit to doing this. He claims to be only making it intelligible, by disclosing its true meaning. However far the interpreters alter the text (another notorious example is the Rabbinic and Christian “spiritual” interpretations of the clearly erotic Song of Songs), they must claim to be reading off a sense that is already there.[/i]
I would assume the Christians who dissent from inside the Christians world have the weight of their hierarchy descend on them. That seems a relatively weak force to me. Someone like Matt Dillahunty (also a ex Christian official), has regular theist callers in his phone-in shows and he regularly gets Christian variants phoning in to say they are no longer Christians based on his arguments. I think we need many more Matt Dillahunty's and groups like Mythvision with Derek Lambert. There are many other significant atheists occupying platforms which expose the irrationality of religion. From Dawkins and Dennet to people like Forrest Valkai, Shannon Q, Aron Ra etc.
Quoting Tom Storm
I am surprised that you would throw down such a gauntlet!
To list all the contradictions in the bible would take a long time.
How about a couple of easy ones to start with:
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, Exodus 34:14
Then we have the likes of:
Corinthians 3:3, You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
The story of Job, in which the devil is able to agitate god enough to bring all sorts of nasty happenings into this poor guy's life and then the bible has content such as:
Proverbs 8:13, To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
That's before we discuss Christian concepts like the seven deadly sins and compare them to claimed statements made by this god.
We could move onto such issues as the shit he let 'Dave the Shepard King of Israel,' get away with while god was going around smiting people for dropping one side of his arc of the covenant or sending she bears to kill children for calling one of his prophets baldy. These are examples of contradictory words and actions, are they not? You certainly can't excuse them using a word like allegory (hidden meaning).
I think this is part of what Sam Harris was referring to, when he uses the term 'fooling ourselves.'
'Quoting Tom Storm
Do they not also believe that John the baptist was way more important than Jesus? The fact that there are so many Christian variants, to me, is another contradiction.
Yeah, but I am just airing my protest that the justifications, for what this article suggests is a 'pragmatic approach' and a 'will to believe,' is, in the judgement of many people, no more than as Sam Harris suggests, 'people who are fooling themselves,' and who claim that they must be given a special dispensation to do so, and that we all need to respect their right to do so.
I agree that we need to accept that they believe what they say, but I also think it's perfectly valid to use the full weight of argument against them and not hold back due to some notion of a historical tradition of reverence for the claimed divinity of their beliefs.
I have not met an atheist, who is familiar with the content of religious texts, who thinks there is zero value in such texts. But the value to be garnished, relates to conformation of that which can serve us as good exemplars of human morality scenarios or lessons on how to create and maintain a good, progressive human civilisation. Unfortunately, along with these valuable examples of good behaviour, good decision making, good morality, etc, there are nonsense examples of supernatural activity and supernatural sources of the wisdom presented. As you suggest, a person can normally come to this realisation themselves, via study, that we can take the social lessons contained in such texts and reject the woo woo. I think that's what most non-believers in theism, do.
Are you familiar with the story of Adam's first wife Lilith?
Did she not sin before Eve?
She wanted to take the dominant top position during sex with Adam, even though god told her not to, so she was the first to disobey god. Why is poor wee Eve getting all the blame and why do the women always get the blame for original sin? After all, it was Adam that let Lilith go on top and it was he that accepted the Apple. Do you think it's because men wrote these stories? :lol: :roll:
Along with these bizarre religious stories that humans have to argue about the truth of, we have some antinatalist flavours who posit that the fact that life began in the universe at all, was some kind of original sin. I base this on the typing's of @Tzeentch on the antinatalism thread.
I am sure I read somewhere that the snake was what god turned Lilith into, for disobeying it.
One month ago, you asked me to please stop spreading hate against Jews and I did so.
Now, I expect the same against universeness's hispanophobic.
Appreciated your comments and actions.
This ignores the argument from pragmatism and falls back to a correspondence epistemology and just restates it.
If it is the belief that God is on our side that wins wars and results in a more just society than its counterpart, is that not a basis for belief? Or do you suggest that the lack of correspondence with reality makes this happy, joyous, and just society worse than a miserable one because that society has the integrity to admit to truth?
My position is that what inspires us need not be tangible or provable, but inspiration towards the positive is desirable, regardless of whether you think the emperor wears no clothes.
Please send me a PM with links to the posts that you think broke the rules and I'll check them and take action if necessary. And also please don't use the Shoutbox for complaints about other members.
Not if it's NOT TRUE! That's the very point Sam Harris is making imo. If there is virtually zero evidence that god is an existent then why should nonbelievers give the idea any special dispensation or respect? That is my question!
Quoting Hanover
I took some time to read: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-correspondence/
In light of that, I stated that I accept that theists believe what they say. You have typed that these beliefs have practical applications which help people live 'successful' and 'contented' lives (you present this as a pragmatic truth). You suggest I am ignoring this and suggesting that this IS, is in truth a NOT, as such people are living in a fake paradise and are fooling themselves. If that is the basis of what you typed, then I would plead guilty as charged and am happy to do so.
Quoting Hanover
Why do you assume that the alternative society is a miserable one?
I live a completely god/theism/supernatural/woo woo free life and I feel as many moments of wonderment, contentment, fulfilment, awe etc etc about life and living in this universe, when compared to any human I have saw on tv, in full religious rapture mode, speaking in tongues, squirming on the floor or sweating, screaming and crying with their hands held aloft, looking like a junkie on a mad acid trip.
Religious mass hysteria is just common human mass hysteria and nothing more, certainly nothing supernatural. There is no empirical evidence of such at all.
Quoting Hanover
I could not disagree more. We dont need appeals to woo woo to inspire. I don't understand why you don't find the materialistic and physical mysteries of the universe enough inspiration for you.
Why do you need a god or an interested eye towards the non-existent supernatural to inspire you when you have the who, what, how and why regarding yourself and every other REAL existent in the universe, to be excited about.
Why can't you see the naked emperor? In fact, why can't you see that there is no emperor!
Sorry Javi! I will focus more on the Brits, the French and the Russians and the Germans in the future.
So many tyrants to get through and not enough time in the day!
Again, you're just reiterating your reliance upon the correspondence theory of truth (in all caps no less) without offering a basis for it. These are competing epistemologies as they've been laid out, with your position being that that which is not provable is false. I've left open calling that which is not provable or disprovable true if it is pragmatically useful. Quoting universeness
Calling it a "fake" paradise is a shift. I've not suggested accepting known falsehoods. Pragmatism doesn't permit ignoring known false claims.Quoting universeness
Because that's how hypotheticals work. A scenario is posited and from there a thought experiment occurs. My question was whether in an assumed scenario where a belief in theism resulted in a happier existence, would you accept the theistic belief. Instead of entertaining the hypothetical, you avoided the question and just told me that in your experience what I hypothesized hasn't happened.
So, returning then to what I was talking about, the question remains, if (and this is an assumption) it could be shown that theistic beliefs result in happier existences, would you accept them? If the answer is yes, then we can go about seeing if that hypothetical scenario could be a reality. It's also entirely possible that what holds true for you doesn't for me, which would then mean that there is a logical basis for theism for me. The problem this creates for atheists of the Sam Harris variety is that it requires an allowance for theism for some, which is what he seems to reject.Quoting universeness
Why do you speak for me?Quoting universeness
As Bob Dylan says, "Don't criticize what you can't understand."
Quoting universeness
Saying there is no emperor indicates you have an affirmative proof for the non-existence of God. That seems a stretch.
A belief in theism can result in a happier existence than that same individual may experience without their theism, yes, BUT you are leaving them in a fake state of ignorant bliss when I believe they could be so much more if they go through the 'cold turkey' of loss of their theism and are supported and aided into their new gloriously exciting REAL world. I would not be content with leaving people plugged into the matrix. The real world can be much tougher, yes, but with all hands-on deck, we have a much better chance of improving things a lot faster.
Quoting Hanover
Well, you have just confirmed that I can't, so I would put it more in the framework of 'debating with you.'
Quoting Hanover
I'm not a Dylan fan as he has a crap voice imo but yeah, he does write some good lyrics.
Not the one you just typed however. By criticising what you don't understand, others can help you understand and if they can't then perhaps you are just too stupid and that will inspire you to do more study in the topic at issue or your criticism has value.
Quoting Hanover
All it has to do is show up and demonstrate its abilities then it wins easily. If it can't do that then my position is very very reasonable.
If I was Elon, I would buy TPF and sack your mod ass!
You can't always get what you want but even if you do;
If I get banned here Javi, I will moan about the historical behaviour of the Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Russians, French, British, Germans, Italians, Romans, Greeks, Spartans, Assyrians, Homo Sapiens on the many many other discussion websites available on the internet.
I think you should seek more significant victories in your life.
If we banned people just for being a pain in the ass I'd be in big trouble. Being a pain in the ass is known by another name too - philosophy.
:blush: I might print that out and keep it Mr Clark. I think that's the nicest most supportive posting I will get from you. I appreciate it.
Confirmed.
they will blow into your neighbor's yard
problem solved
I'm not sure you are following my point very well; maybe my language was unclear. I addressed the contradiction issue. A collection of allegories shoved together in an anthology is bound to provide different accounts. That's kind of inherent to allegorical storytelling, right? When I was in Bible class 40 years ago, the minister would list some Biblical contradictions and we would laugh about them and suggest others. The overarching view was, 'This is an old book of allegorical stories designed to get you thinking about divinity, morality and meaning, it is not a scientific text and allows for a multiplicity of accounts.' This view of god is more Paul Tillich than Jerry Falwell. I don't expect you to care about this difference, but I do.
Yeah, I think I misunderstood your post Tom. You were simply typing about the bible taken metaphorically rather than literally, yes?
Voter fraud fer shur.
I have video of Rick Desantis and Matt Gaetz driving a tractor-trailer truck full of fraudulent ballots to Tallahassee.
[sup]— Keith Cooper; Space·com; Nov 7, 2022[/sup]
Quoting Keith Cooper
Quoting Abigail Elms
Old floating corpses in our neighborhood.
Maybe some day someone will say the same of us. :smile:
Some people pronounce "pickle" in a way that rhymes with "miracle."
Meanwhile in America ... unreality seems to have lost its flavour on the bedpost overnight.
What does this mean?
Some bad shit happened in the life of Les McKeown.
Totally ripped off by his vile manager Tam Paton (now dead).
Paton was also jailed in 1982 for abuse of male children.
McKeown claimed he was raped by Paton when he was just 17 and starting out in the Bay City Rollers.
Then he said he was date raped at 19 by another man in a hotel room in America
In 1975 he knocked down and killed a 76-year-old woman in Edinburgh.
McKeown was also accused himself of raping one of the later band members in 2007. The guitarist Pat McGlynn.
He spent most of his life in and out of rehab.
He was also married to a woman called Keiko.
Drug and alcohol abuse finally killed Mr McKeown, at only 65.
Not a life that anyone would envy I think, despite the 'fame and fortune,' he had as well.
Hi guys, is it possible to somehow turn of notifications by email?
Thanks, I completely missed these settings.
The King of skiffle! Lonnie Donegan.
I think he is also famed for the most number of repeats of a place name in the whole history of music. Can you guess what place he was referring to from:
Good God, that is a miserable life. They seemed so much happier in the video.
Yeah, the world of fame and fortune, eh?
Wouldn't be so bad, if there were not so many other horrific tales from those who have lived that particular lifestyle. Best to avoid I think, too many pitfalls!
I went through the same insanity in my youth before I was able to figure out how to live a normal life while remaining a mod.
Do you have any footage? or do you want to remain annon ..... anomino ..... anonominis......... I means, so nobody knows it was you?
Addition: Why do I suddenly want pizza?
Damn, the world is getting old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHDFZaMNED0
Somewhere near here: --
I think it's somewhere around here:
The Cumberland Gap National Historical Park is a United States National Historical Park located at the border between Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia, centered on the Cumberland Gap, a natural break in the Appalachian Mountains.
In Utero Enzyme-Replacement Therapy for Infantile-Onset Pompe’s Disease
[sup]— New England Journal of Medicine; Nov 9, 2022[/sup]
Rare, deadly genetic disease successfully treated in utero for first time
[sup]— Avis Favaro; CTV; Nov 9, 2022[/sup]
In a First, Doctors Treat a Fatal Genetic Disease Before Birth
[sup]— Jonel Aleccia; Time; Nov 10, 2022[/sup]
Can I steal this and post it on the antinatalist thread? Just as some examples of 'current humans' trying to alleviate current and future human suffering. I won't copy and paste it until I have your permission to, and I won't at all, if you don't want me to. Perhaps you might decide to copy and paste it there yourself.
I think it's useful to post some such examples there, but I can find my own, if you object to me hijacking your examples. I think these are valid counters to the antinatalism position.
I'm paid not to say, because if I did, I'd collapse the multi-billion dollar philosophy industrial complex.
You can't get there from here.
The answer to all the questions is "none of the above."
"God probably exists, unless God doesn't. Life is probably what you're experiencing, unless it's not. Either way be sure to smile for the camera when the ride enters a designated photography zone."
My go-to advice for atheists. No complaints yet. Works for carny folk too. They love me at the fair.
ok. cool.
So as not to clutter up TiredThinker's thread, I'll post my list of the most important philosophical milestones in the past 100 years in the Shoutbox.
Think of it this way, friend. Is the meaning of something you experience it's intent? Whose? What is the meaning of a brick or a piece of ammunition? Sure, to be used in construction or fired, respectively. But why does it have to be? Maybe that brick would instead be used to defeat an attacker and prevent him from detonating all of the world's nuclear weapons at once whereas any other use of said item simply creates futility that always gets destroyed one way or the other. In a larger sense, is the "meaning" or purpose of a brick building structures of no lasting effect or saving the world from destruction? Seems to me like the choice is largely yours.
It's funny, sometimes only in purposelessness can one begin to ascertain any true understanding or essence of whatever meaning may or may not be present. Of course, this leads us inevitably back to where we started from, what's the meaning? Legendary detective Sherlock Holmes once said "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - no matter how unlikely - must be the truth".
So the question is.. how goes your hunt for eliminating the impossible? Any progress you can share?
This is a common misconception. Bertrand Russell founded PF in 1927. Paul Russell, Bertrand's grandson and Jamal's uncle, tried to claim credit. I'm just setting the record straight.
I am a former philo head. Back when I used to get amped up on stimulants like methylphenidate and do Philosophy. I've traversed several plateaus. Sometimes I felt theistic. At other times, like, when I come down from a weed high, i felt atheistic. Presently I'm sober and I'm caught up in the IT field. I don't have time to think about philosophy, at least not at the moment. But when I think about how things are going, and meditate on it a bit, It feels like we are living in a simulation.
I think Uncle Paul deserves more credit.
Whose? To put it mildly, I for one would like to have a go at them! (I mean, just take a look at what their simulation(s) consist of.)
As to the matrix/womb motif, to ... heck ... with the movie! In one sense, one can think of it in terms of how bone cells perpetually create the ever-changing bone matrix in which they dwell. No simulations or reality involved: rather, the very nature of reality itself. If you're into that kind of thing, that is; it's a bit too Eastern-thought-ish for most.
So, who on TPF should be awarded the identifier 'Thales (the originator.)'
PTS? Post Traumatic Stress? Any connection?
Thales is also famous for being the first to monopolize. I think he bought up the rights of usage for many of the olive presses, for the time period which he figured would be the peak harvest period. He did this prior to the season. Then when harvest came, and he owned the rights to all the olive presses, he was able to rent them out at a big profit.
He is also accredited as the first to successfully predict a solar eclipse. I guess with all that money he made off the olive presses he was able to sit around and focus on the movements of heavenly bodies.
The PF of which we speak (back in '27) ran on the dark telegraph. Teenagers had figured out how to send telegraph messages to each other for free. If you wanted to clutch your pearls before swine, task #1 was finding a crooked but competent juvenile. Task #2 was to learn Morse Code. After Task #3 (climbing up a pole to tap the telegraph line), you could become a supporter for 25¢ a year.
Fortunately for free thought in America, the Coolidge Administration had no interest in the dark telegraph.
How would you know? By what non-simulation could you have possibly made a comparison against? From a time in your life you knew little about what went on around you and even less about what was going on in front of you? Nothing is formless anymore. Everything has lines, borders, edges, a beginning and an end. Distinction, if you will. Both the immaterial (time, existence, etc) and that which can be held ("a stuff" as colorful folk on here say). Noticing these distinctions in the form of a long term observational synchronicity that seem to betray a larger, singular entity or construct of separate and unique constitution and being is not uncommon.
It's all pattern recognition. Your mind playing tricks on you. Leftover remnants of evolutionary survival adaptation from times past. Utterly random groupings of nerves or tendencies of related function that just so happened to have helped the host survive a particular time and place. Similar to anxiety disorders. Right? :)
It's been a while since I've considered what "title" or "-isms" I do and do not explicitly exalt as above any other thing or as absolute truth rather. I know well-to-do adults who believe dinosaur bones were magically put in the ground by a supernatural being (or I suppose that they are otherwise of deceptive origin). They're some of the most free-thinking and fun to be around people I know. Naturally I worry about their life choices and overall malleability but that's beside the point.
I'm willing to divulge I believe in the possibility of creationism within or not within the bounds of widely-held notions typically associated with and generally operate under this mindset when engaging in theistic philosophies. You cannot bridge a gap between two people by explicitly operating under a mindset which denies any and all possibility of one's reality entirely.
Quoting Sapien1
The takeaway from evolution is that the chaos of the universe is essentially a killing floor, the entropy of it rather. Literally every possible thing (or combination of things) that could happen on a molecular level did over enough time and randomness. You could say that everything is conscious by nature on the smallest level ie. reacts to stimuli. That ours is simply more advanced with functions we can control such as memory and thus ability to think or otherwise form a unique "identity" that we consider a person. To bridge a gap between two people you must also understand what both people do and do not consider factual or to be possible and why.
Yeah but according to Wiki, Aristotle wrote:
Thales' objective in doing this was not to enrich himself but to prove to his fellow Milesians that philosophy could be useful, contrary to what they thought, or alternatively, Thales had made his foray into enterprise because of a personal challenge put to him by an individual who had asked why, if Thales was an intelligent famous philosopher, he had yet to attain wealth.
So maybe after he made his point and his dosh, he used it to help poor people!
If he didn't then yeah, just another capitalist hellboy!
I think that predicting the solar eclipse earned him the reputation of sage, but I have a feeling that he did the magic trick with the olive presses before he predicted the eclipse. Anyway, if he was attempting to give philosophy a good name that was in vain because those attempts were quickly overwhelmed by sophistry, and Socrates felt the wrath.
The interesting thing for me regarding the idea of the 'first philosopher,' is, would Thales have recognised himself as such? Would he have produced a list of names of people, that he learned from? and would he suggest that our definition of the term 'philosopher' would better fit the people that he would list?
I think we have more information missing about the who, what, when, where, why, of 'philosophy'/'science,' from the early days than we have reliable information regarding the who, what. when, where, why of philosophy/science from those early/classical/ancient times.
We have no text written by Socrates himself. There were probably philosophers/scientists who were actually as significant or even more significant than any of those we know, who lived way before any of the ones anyone has heard of. I kind of like that as it means that there is no 'perfect form of, (so Platonism is flawed) and no 'ideal of' (so Aristotelianism is flawed) philosophy.
I like that philosophy, can just be people talking about their personal musings, on how they view their personal experience of existence as a human.
What's interesting to me is how the map shows the distribution of population in the US. Each dot should represent an approximately equal number of people. There are 435 representatives/districts and the US population is about 332 million. That means each dot represents about 763,000 people.
Lots of data and lots of maps. I love maps.
Me too. Text is linear, a journey with a beginning and an end; but a map is an infinity of potential journeys, each a different tale, that the-map reader is free to choose from.
I've since changed my linear ways, and if you were to tell me directions now, I would write out a map. Actually, I'd just ask my car to load in the directions and some nice lady would tell me where to turn, but, if it were 20 years ago, I'd be all about the maps.
I've changed my view on climate change and concluded that the problem is unresolvable, and we should live our lives however we want. Without universal compliance, our efforts will be useless. Whenever part of a solution requires worldwide compliance, peace, and harmony, then that's not a solution, but a utopian dream.
What we need to do is prepare for the increased beach front property. That's my solution. Hate me, love me, but I've thrown in the towel on this one.
It's going to decrease, not increase. It would increase if there was more land than ocean, but there isn't. All the land is islands, big or small, and those islands will all shrink as sea level rises. Smaller islands have less beachfront.
Quoting Hanover
So now you've just got a wet towel for nothing.
I am very pessimistic about our collective future with respect to global warming. In vernacular terms, we are totally screwed.
Perhaps if Europe, China, and the US achieved zero CO2 emissions within the next few years, we could avoid a hot Armageddon. But, alas. Were Europe, China, and the US to cease CO2 emissions soon enough to change the course, the world-wide social-political-economic cratering would be devastating, catastrophic, and all-round, very very bad.
True. For the most part, it's out of our hands.
Quoting Hanover
:smile: Maybe Atlanta will be on the coast some day.
There's a joke here somewhere:
Blah, blah, blah, blah, Herschel Walker, blah, blah, blah.
We can add a d so you can han d over our planet to the nefarious few!
NO WAY mr handover!
As you can see from the diagrams:
Diagram A has an area of 314.16 miles (10 x 10 x Pi)
Diagram A has a coastal area of 62.82 miles (2 x Pi x 10)
Diagram B has been devastated by global warming, now with a waterway directly through the island, dividing families literally across their dining room tables.
Diagram B has an area of approximately 274.16 (314.16 - (2 x 20))
Diagram B has a coastal area of approximately 98.82 (62.82 - 4 + 40)
I've given approximates for B because there is a small arc at the top of the circle I treated a straight line for simplicity sake.
The point being that erosion of land mass due to climate change does not necessarily result in a loss of surface area of land to water.
This math experiment offers solid support for my not caring about climate change.
Apropos of recent discussions about rationality - "Question Rationality" - this post is rational but [s]stupid[/s] wrong.
My point is valid here, which is that it requires not only that you and I comply, but that all others do as well, even those that we know won't.
That is a strange island you live on. It looks a bit like the Americas with that canal between.
Quoting Hanover
Greens are necessarily fascists. People are dumb and have to be forced to do what is in their best interest. If you're all 'oh never mind let's all die', then you are one of the dumb ones. I'll be round later to sort you out.
So justice will prevail, with the good surviving.
It'll all work out in the end. If it's not working out, then it must not be the end.
North America once had a huge inland sea.
Congratulations to him. What does he write?
The manuscript he's trying to get published is sort of magical realism/alternative reality/alternative history...I guess. It's weird. His roots are in more classic sci-fi.
When it gets closer to publication, let us know.
Sure. This isn't a guarantee of publication though; the agent has to successfully sell the novel to a publisher, if I understand correctly.
Sure, but I wanted to be positive.
*Thumbs up photo*
No offence to your brother and good luck to him but I think there should be a major literary award going to the person who doesn't write a novel in a given year. For services to literature... that kind of thing.
I don’t know the literary world, but I certainly feel that way about the popular music industry.
You and your hasidus.
Tracht gut vet zein gut.
So, then you put it back in your bag until another co-worker gets an idea that it'll be a good gift for a friend whom they haven't remembered to get a present for. Then you feel a pang of guilt for that stranger you haven't met which is now a would-be recipient of a discarded bread.
Quoting Tom Storm
:grin:
Congratulations to your brother.
Perhaps if island nations such as Vanuatu actually cease to exist, which is getting to the 'almost guaranteed' level of prediction based on climate change data, more and more nations will not need any more 'convincing.' I posted a thread on Philosophical Brinksmanship a while ago, as it seems to me that most humans don't fully fight for change until they notice that the flames are lapping around their own arse.
I hope it's not too late to start to reverse the damage we continue to do to the only planet we can currently live on. Don't give up on us yet Han(d)over!
You can self-publish for around £2000.
I like the fact its a great answer to the antinatalists but yeah, too many people for a species that has still not learned how to share space and resources in a way that works for everyone.
World population is expected to reach 8 billion people on November 15, 2022 according to the United Nations
I searched 'bing' for 'current world population' and got a site showing the ascending number.
I froze it at. 8,000,013,578. The site is :
Current World Population of Humans
The 'view all people on 1 page' and the 'watch as we increase' option is interesting to view. As each new stick person image appears, you can ruminate at the rate of appearance of new humans on Earth.
I think it looks better like that. You have convinced me; I am now looking forward to global warming and the breakup of North America
Doggerland will probably get smaller too.
Turns out the world is anti-natalist.
Yes, he’s also done that.
Sounds like he has made all the right moves on offer!
Now there's a fun job for an apprentice!
Would the instructions be something like:
"Now here your microscope, your large bag of small steel balls to move one by one from the full bag to the empty bag for each sperm you separate with your 'little micro stick thing.'
Now don't f*** this up! The world needs to know the truth man!
Oh, you still need a sample, don't you.
I'll be back in 30 seconds, just wait there a minute, now where's that picture of........."
That explains a lot.
Is that because you would wonder what to do with the remaining 20 seconds? :joke:
Here's a link if you want to use it:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/download/2705/YGID%20small.png
Alas, I'm an ungrateful non-subscriber; don't think I can post photos.
Alas
Yes
butter
salt and pepper
:up:
Don't hang your Freudian on me, bud, I'm just making dad gags here.
It's so long since I've been to see live music, I've forgotten what it's like.
Actually no, what am I talking about? I went to see some pleasingly strange live music in August. It was mostly successful and substantially improvised Indian/African/Scottish fusion. Bewitching. Lambent.
But I haven't been to a big show for years.
Were they called The AfroCelts by any chance, with Simon Emmerson?
This was the first proper rock show I'd been to since pre-covid. I did see Kamasi Washington a few months ago at an outdoor festival-style bill. Spiritual. Ebullient.
The weird fusion show sounds...weird.
I have a copy of all of the AfroCelt CD's that fuse world trad music with trad scots music. The group you mention seems like clones of that style. But I also own a copy of every Mike Oldfield and Jean Michele Jarre album, so I like of music which is mainly instrumental.
Mr Emmerson put out other cd's that fuse say hispanic trad music with african trad music, for example but I didn't think they worked quite as well. Emmerson is involved with a lot of folk albums as well, such as 'The Imagined Village' and 'Cool As Folk,' etc. Good background music when doing DIY around the house etc.
I regret to say that it would have been better without the Scottish lady's aimless wailing. The other musicians were playing tabla, sitar, kora and thumb piano, which were all great. Super. Ultratolerable.
Quoting Noble Dust
Never really got into that guy's music. I've listened but despite the explosiveness of it all it didn't grab me. I imagine he'd be great live.
Quoting universeness
I may seek out some of this stuff, although I'm not very good at DIY.
Quoting universeness
I doubt they were clones of anybody. Just cos they use the same instruments and included a Celtic-style singer doesn't mean they're the same!
Quoting universeness
I like Bells, Crises, and Ommadawn, and I love his guitar playing, but I've found that everything after Bells hasn't had the same edge.
Jean has a new album out, quite an odd one for him so it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymore
Saw him at the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall about 15 years ago. Give or take 3 years.
Weirdly I didn't either until I listened to some of his records at properly high volume. The somewhat cheesy epicness of it actually makes sense when it's loud. Unfortunately, I saw him at this outdoor venue in Brooklyn which is notorious for bad sound, which was the case. Plus, none of his high profile buddies were there, like Terrace Martin or Robert Glasper. Fun (free) show, but nothing special. Unfortunate. Ill-fated.
Yeah I can see that. I think my current hi-fi is not up to the task. Plus, what I heard sounded kinda derivative, hence the cheese factor.
I don't disagree about the cheese factor. We listen to vinyl at my job, and my weird boss had a record of his in for long enough that it broke me down to the point where I started to like it. I'm no apologist for him, but I've grown to like his music.
Here's one from 'The Imagined Village' album, which Simon Emmerson was involved with which fuses a traditional English folk song with Indian music:
Quoting Jamal
What about Bells II and III, Millenium Bells, Tubular Beats? All very good imo. Return to Ommadawn?
Crisis was great but so was Incantations, Discovery, Five miles out, Guitars, Platinum, QE2, Tr3S Lunas, Voyager to name but a few of Oldfields genius.
Quoting Jamal
I had it on pre-order and received it, about a few weeks ago. Not yet listened to it. I need to build the anticipation. I might actually give it its first outing today as I do a little more work on an oil painting.
Also been listening a lot to the French group 'Enigma's' cd's and even my old SKY cd's, do you remember them and their version of Tocatta?
Quoting Jamal
A small exclusive gig for Jean compared to London Docks etc.
I was a journeyman painter and decorator before I went back to FE college and then Uni. I was one of the workmen on the Royal Concert Hall from when it was ready for painting. I can hardly look at a tin of magnolia emulsion now as that's all that I used for about three months of painting the inside of that freakin place! I was in it recently and its now a bit of a dump. It needs a full update. It's still got the same magnolia paint I helped put on its walls and ceilings, all them years ago!
I view them similar to the way I view the newer Star Wars movies, though to be honest I haven't given them (the Oldfield albums) a chance. To be even more honest, I don't like Star Wars all that much.
Quoting universeness
Not a fan of Hergest Ridge then?
I didn't know that when someone paints things for a living, they don't like to paint the same colour for too long.
Oh that one was definately Mike high as a kite! 'Big brown beastie, big brown face, I'd rather be with you than fly through space!' Mike, his horse and some illegal substances I think! and what the hell was that crazy fuzzy guitar section? I like and appreciate the nuances of Hergest Ridge but only after learning how to.
Quoting Jamal
Quoting Jamal
I've heard you can even have too much sex, drugs and alcohol! :scream:
I've heard of the existence of such people, but I think this is the first time I have ever communicated with such! H...... he........hello...... welcome to our planet!
That's from Ommadawn. Call yourself a fan :roll:
:blush: So it is! Yep my superfan badge just ran away from its pin. I will go listen to Hergest Ridge again.
I definitely remember the madcap fuzzy guitar section from Hergest Ridge and some snippets of ethereal sounds as I stared at the open fields picture on the cover. I also remember not liking it much on my first 20 or so listening's but I also remember falling asleep when listening to it and then waking up with a start when the madcap guitar bit came on. Part 1 below:
The madcap guitar bit I so dislike, is from around 9 mins 30 to 15 mins 30 in part 2 below:
Just had my first time with Oxymore!
I didn't understand the first track, Agora.
The rest were good and deserve many further listens but are you familiar with his much-debated offerings on his album Zoolook?
I think an awful lot of the effects he is using on Oxymore, have their origins in Zoolook, especially the strong 'oriental' influences present on Zoolook.
That's the best bit!
Quoting universeness
Yes, I got Zoolook after getting to know Oxygene and Equinoxe. I haven't listened to it for thirty years but I remember liking it and everyone else hating it.
Personal taste is a mighty discriminator indeed!
I love guitar riffs but I didn't connect to the 'fuzz' guitar sound used in that example and I found the rhythmic content of it boring, then it becomes just random noise before it ends.
Compare it with the Guitar riffs used by Matt Bellamy of Muse!
Don't get me wrong, I still think Oldfield is a brilliant guitarist.
Yeah, sometimes I think Zoolook is way underrated and very original and still a relatively untapped musical style. Its best to listen to Zoolook quite drunk. I don't think it works as music to relax to or paint or do DIY to but its great if you are in a kind of mad state of mind or just pissed.
So many fantastic JMJ albums, Aero, Chronologie, Magnetic fields, Metamorphoses, Rendevous, Teo & Tea etc. Have you heard Equinoxe infinity? and the amazing collaboration double album he made with many other artists called Electronica.
C -
You say that like these are the only options, as if when you're sober and in a sane state of mind you can only like easy listening and background music. That does not describe me. :nerd:
Oh my comments on when to listen to Zoolook, were totally based on personal taste, which I have already described as a mighty discriminator!
Quoting Jamal
Quoting Noble Dust
Eloquent. Exuberant.
Thank you. I abhor all that turgid and banal 1970's musical pap. And those dire Lucas movies should be expunged from the face of the earth. :wink:
Versuvius. Marblificent.
Virsidius, malacrabal.
Oftmagrofonic, prokinitious.
Isn't that spelled "Offmagraphonic"--of music produced by blowing through a gramaphone? If memory serves...
:lol:
Embiggen, cromulent.
They made Star Wars into a musical?
[joke]Suggestion for change in your user name - @Bitter popular culture Crank. [/joke]
In other US medical news, my knee hurt, so I got an appointment the next day at an MRI center and got an MRI for $400 without a referral from a doctor. I then made an appointment and saw an orthopedist the next week who went over the findings with me. He did mention how efficient I was to bring in the MRI before he ever even ordered it.
I like to get things done. I'm going to go ahead and schedule my autopsy right away. My guess is that the report will say: "Cause of death: Autopsy."
I always say, if I don't laugh at my own jokes, how can I expect other people to.
Finicky. Peristeronic.
Ornithological. Gallinaceous.
Yeah, tell it to the guy who's about to perform the autopsy. That ought to stir a good laugh.
Let's ask the Baden.
Baden, what's happening with the December short story contest, please?
Quoting Caldwell
:smile: Your K.I.S.S. questions will hopefully be answered soon.
I think my long nudge was a little too early. I blame the Guardian for the jump-start about 2 weeks ago:
As a reminder:
Quoting Amity
The conversation at one point, when most of us were in the 'happy glow' stage of alcohol, started to talk a little bit about who had experienced anything 'supernatural.' I was in the 'supernatural has no existents' camp but based on a post by @180 Proof, I referred to myself as a naturalist.
[b]I prefer the label physicalist rather than materialist.
— Down The Rabbit Hole
I prefer naturalist which covers them both.
- 180 Proof[/b]
A woman in the company, who I don't think was listening much to the discourse, said quite loudly towards me "How can you dae that? Just exposing yourself totally naked on beaches and ..... other places where that stuff's allowed, I think it's disgusting!"
After the laughing stopped, we eventually explained the difference between a naturalist and a naturist. :lol:
I think I will go back to using 'materialist,' no doubt some folks will think that means I am a tailor, or I make curtains and cover couches!!
(I also prefer atomist to materialist.)
Good question. I'm considering putting up a poll to gage interest. I'm just not sure whether there's enough to sustain two of these a year.
Oh dear, I'm not feeling the joy :worry:
Perhaps it's something in the name, the rules, and the pressure of reading all before 'judging'?
I know I'd prefer a more relaxing time.
Some only seem to like the 'Guess the Author' game. That's fine and it is difficult not to have someone in mind as you read. But the ongoing speculation can detract from the story itself.
If there isn't enough interest in the Short-Story Contest, why not lose some of the restrictions?
First, ask why there is not enough interest and then what people would prefer, if anything?
I think we could all do with a bit of cheering up during the so-called festive period. To take a leap from existential-fucking-ness; to seduce and free our inner magical spirit?
Immerse, imagine and shake it up a bit. Activate the neurons and feel a little.
Even if we only read and share a few thoughts. A special gift of friendship, no?
How about a TPF 'Creative Festival'? :party:
Then again, "Fuck It!" :broken:
You lost interest yourself several times and talked the competition down so I'm not going to try to guess where you're coming from here. But like many things sometimes less is more. We'll see.
Not true.
The only time I didn't participate was in the last competition.
That was for reasons other than the competition.
I had taken leave from TPF for a while, as many do.
No need to guess where I'm coming from. I already explained that.
Is that the reason for your non-response to my initial query?
Let it be.. :sparkle:
Well, I'm very grateful for your efforts when you have been enthusiastic and I hope you'll participate if we do have one this December. The reason for the poll as I already said is:
Quoting Baden
Yeah, I got that.
The 'reason' referred to in my post concerned your non-response to my initial query.
It seemed that the reason for that was due to your wrong belief that:
Quoting Baden
I'm glad that, after my clarification, you now seem to understand.
Levels of interest, enthusiasm and participation depend on other levels...
We'll see.
I've taken the poll down. I realized I would vote "once a year" is best myself. So, I don't think I'll organize it this winter. If someone else in the mod team wants to take the reins on the admin side of this for December, please do.
It's up to you. Have you lost interest or just got too much on?
Perhaps give @Caldwell temporary or permanent mod status?
I think I've come to the conclusion I have enough interest to do this once a year, partly because I think there's diminishing returns in engagement if we do it twice a year.
Quoting Amity
Potentially good idea. If she's interested.
Fair enough.
As an elderly man myself, I understand how serious cow-trampling can be. What I do not understand here is the concept of an "out of control cow". When are cows ever "in control"?
Sounds like a plan to me, not some whacked out crazy cow thing. Locked up cow breaks for freedom and said that anybody who gets in her way will get run over. Efforts were made to help the cow regain "control" but the angry bovine was not interested.
So they shot her--another police killing of the oppressed.
My advice to those confronted by the Bovine Liberation Movement:
"Get out of the way if you can't lend a hand for the times they are a changin."
I think if I told that same woman that I am an atomist, she might think I only like small people or have a small manhood.
In fact, knowing my luck, and today's society, and the fact she already thinks I'm a pervy naturalist/naturist, and that she is very attractive and in her mid 30's and I am 58.
When I tell her I am 'an atomist', she will hear anatomist and make some accusation about my pervy interest in her body parts. :blush: :lol:
Thankfully I am good friends with her very large, very strong husband, who seems to see me as some kind of wise person who he must respect. I think she keeps accusing me of such 'pervy' stuff due to some annoyance with her husbands, at times over the top and unwarranted deference towards me.
From Wiki:
Artemis 1, is an ongoing uncrewed Moon-orbiting mission, the first spaceflight in NASA's Artemis program. It is the first integrated flight test of the Orion spacecraft and Space Launch System rocket. Artemis 1 was successfully launched from Kennedy Space Center on 16 November 2022 at 01:47:44 EST (06:47:44 UTC). Its main objective is to test the Orion spacecraft, especially its heat shield, in preparation for subsequent Artemis missions. These missions will seek to re-establish a human presence on the Moon and demonstrate technologies and business approaches needed for future scientific studies, including exploration of Mars.
Next time go to Dr Pimple Popper and tell her you want some of the youtube profits.
Sounds like her kink may be a thing for an older perv. In my case once I hit 50 (I'm 59 now), twenty-thirtysomething women have shown more 'interest' in me than it seems they had a couple of decades ago. Older sapiosexual (naturalist-atomist) perv I am & proud of it! :yum: :up:
No shame in tapping into the daddy issues crowd.
None. Tapping that has almost always been short-term win-win fun. :smirk:
Oh I agree we are still space babies or even space amoebas, but I just wonder if future historians will cite Artemis 1 as a very significant beginning. I also wonder what all the conspiracy dimwits that claimed the moon landings were fake, will say, when we actually return and live and work there?
Quoting 180 Proof
Can't say I get much attention from twenty or thirty something women. You must be prettier at 59 than I at 58.
I am not attracted to women my age or older. So, I have to settle mostly for the good beers and good cheers nowadays, which is ......... good enough!
Quoting Baden
Thanks to @Caldwell for continuing the discussion with update in the thread,
'Short Story Competition Discussion June 2022':
:up:
Btw, why some folks don't want the Moon Landings to have happened is still a (psychiatric) mystery to me. You'd have be wholly ignorant or gullible enough to believe that all Cold War adversaries who tracked (with radars, eavesdropping satellites & telescopes) and recorded all six Apollo missions to the Moon 1969-1972 were collectively in on "the hoax" and agreed to cover it up together in order to declare the USA "winner of the space race." Stupid is as stupid does, I guess; Dunning-Kruger flat earthers have Youtube channels too. :sparkle: :eyes:
Yeah, It seems you really can fool some of the people all of the time, and that's why the conspiracy theorists continue to get money from the gullible.
1. Don't stand between the horns and the wall.
2. don't lie down between the hooves and the floor.
You'd think old men in rural areas would know this stuff. "Out of control" is an euphemism for 'on heat', or else excessive use of the cattle prod. Either way the slaughter is a crime against bovinity, and I will be complaining to my MP about it.
You might be surprised how things change as you tip-toe into old age. :cool:
I will not tiptoe! I like surprises, especially if they 'take my breath away.' I am however quite shallow when it comes to physical attraction. I like what I like and that's it. I agree however that having good female friends, my age or older is of great benefit. I really like my own cave however and I love my own company, but I do need, very much, to have the companionship/friendship/association of others.
I hope none of that changes as I get older. I have witnessed in older relatives, that for some, life can change dramatically, very quickly, mentally and/or physically, as you get older.
I have no idea, how I would react to major drops in the quality of my life.
I have witnessed the destruction that can happen to people, through illness, unfortunate happenstance, self-destructive behaviour, ignorance, unjust treatment etc but I have also witnessed those with a robust health in their 80's and even 90's, positive happenstance, sustained personal effort to behave in selfless ways, attempts to always be learning, and fantastic support of your life from family, friends and even from 'society.'
My own personal measure/experience is that, overall, balancing the positive and the negative, so far, it's been a wonderful life!
Quoting Amity
A decision taken then to cancel and not to be overturned.
Just one last thing re levels of interest.
I noted that the highest level was during what I now call 'Jamal's Winning Contest' ( Competition2).
Perhaps it was the juiciness of the Plum Pie but I think it was @Jamal's engaging and sustained interest in all entries not just his own which had 124 replies. This brought everyone together.
The time and energy to fully participate is not something everyone wants to or can do.
When it happens there is a great sense of achievement and in my case, learning. Thanks to all.
Anything coming after that would seem less. But really wasn't in comparison to Comp1.
This gauging levels of participation before the event reminds me of the angst before the first TPF revival of the Short Story Competition. Thanks to the perseverance of people like @180 Proof, it happened.
The decision taken is based on Baden's belief that doing it once a year makes more sense; apparently, it will be fresher that way.
I doubt it will be any fresher...
...unless in the meantime efforts are made for improved organisation and voting system.
And perhaps a 'Spring Forward' support by the likes of Jamal and co.
Or the prevention of any conflict of interest by having an objective host with no entry.
Looking at the stories in themselves and not any perceived intentions of an author.
I've said more than I intended.
It would have been good if Baden had started a new pinned thread to discuss Short Story 4 and its cancellation. Better than skirting around in the nonsense of Shoutbox.
I note and wonder at the silence of other mods who would usually participate or support.
@Benkei @Hanover @Michael - what's up?
A disappointing decision but hey... worse things happen at sea...or at railway stations...
As if any individual state would be good enough to qualify.
Ah, now that might just explain the Short Story Contest cancellation.
The World Cup 2022 is being staged in Qatar.
From Nov 20th - December 18th.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/22/world-cup-qatar-human-rights-roy-keane
More than a few stories there worth the telling or showing, if allowed...
Such balls.
:up:
On that we agree :up:
As if the Fighting Peaches of Georgia wouldn't lay waste to whatever his royal Highness threw at them.
On the hand, if it's just a stupid game of kicking a ball around, then who cares. That's sort of where I am on it. It's not like real football.
Cheap bastard tip: expensive magnesium oil is just epsom salt in water. Buy a bag of epsom salt and make your own.
Tummy tip: do NOT drink magnesium oil unless you’re so constipated that projectile diarrhea is a welcome thing at that point lol.
It's complicated. But almost everyone has a line. It might be Qatar. It might be Russia. It might be N. Korea. The more honest debate imo is where we draw the line and why, not if we draw a line. But I'm not too interested in getting into it. I wouldn't be watching the World Cup regardless.
Quoting Hanover
How about you make a cartoon about a stupid football that plays football stupidly. Just give me credit for the idea and we're golden. :up:
That's fine. Nobody wants the racist uncle at the table anyway.
People aren't mad about the racist uncle at the table as much as they're mad about no alcohol being served.
Interesting. They always give magnesium to people who are having asthma attacks because it relaxes muscles in the lungs.
Because being sober around one's mother in law is worse than a drunk racist uncle. It's all about priorities.
This is true. Real Football has the all-important Knock People Down and Stomp on Them Rules that allow players to, well, knock people down and stomp on them. So-called "football" in other nations only allows that among spectators.
@Hanover
Quoting Hanover
Yeah, but real men call that rugby, not football. Football in the USA, is like rugby with a crash helmet and lots of protective padding.
In the games in the UK, how many people on the field for each team, 7 or 15? What's the difference in play?
$#@$$_&er
Alright, just for you.
It's an absurd interaction to be sure, but a bit too avant garde for me.
Back home, the tampons are only in the women's bathroom.
That's one difference I noticed out here. The mountains are another.
I think it's saying that instead of defining objective reality in terms of an inaccessible and ungraspable beyond, phenomenologists would argue that the right place to locate objectivity is in, rather than beyond, the appearing world. The co-created meaning of Melville's text and greeting is an act of intersubjective collaboration which is situated alongside faith as an embodied form of crack pipe smoking nominalism. It's a hilarious drawing.
Now that you explain it, I guess it is pretty hilarious in a slapstick sort of way.
Make one with William Shakespeare. "To be or not to be". Even I can think of one.
Or as an interloper in a presidential speech: "Ask not what your country can do for you", etc.
Evidence of phytoplankton blooms under Antarctic sea ice
[sup]— Horvat, Bisson, Seabrook, Cristi, Matthes · Frontiers in Marine Science · Nov 17, 2022[/sup]
Related to climate change?
If I am being honest, I am not really into sports but just based on FYI, I did some 'bing' searching and:
[b]In 1823, a school in Rugby, England created a modified version of football, the precursor to soccer and American football. In 1871, the Rugby Football Union was formed, and in 1886, the International Rugby Football Board established some rules for the sport. Rugby was recognized as a professional sport in 1995.
Rugby is similar to soccer and American football, as it is played on a grass field with a goal on each end. It begins with a kick-off, and the ball can be passed only laterally or backwards. The ball can be kicked, and tackling is permitted. Scoring is called a “try” and is executed much like a touchdown. Rugby sevens is another form of rugby in which each team has seven players.[/b]
and:
[b]The most popular version of rugby is Rugby Union with teams of 15 players on the field and 8 substitutes.
Rugby League has 13 players and 4 substitutes.
Rugby Sevens, an Olympic sport, has 7 players and 3 substitutes (with 5 players on the bench).
Other variants of rugby have different team numbers.
Here is a breakdown of team numbers by the type of rugby:
Governing Body Name Field Subs
World Rugby Rugby Union 15 8
World Rugby Sevens 7 3 *
World Rugby Rugby 10s 10 5
International Rugby League Board Rugby League 13 4
International Rugby League Board Rugby League Nines 9 4
International Rugby League Board Rugby League Sevens 7 5
Federation of International Touch Touch Rugby 6 unlimited
French Rugby Federation Touch Rugby (France) 5 5
International Wheelchair Rugby Federation Wheelchair Rugby 4 8
Informal Beach Rugby 4 to 7* 3 to 7*[/b]
I think the rules of play differ quite a bit between American football and Rugby union but there are many similarities as well.
There is now a lot of discussions on the long-term brain damage happening to rugby players in the UK. Perhaps they will all end up wearing crash helmets and padding as well but even if they do, many American football players regularly suffer long term physical damage, do they not?
The number of British football/soccer players, who end up with long-term brain damage due to heading the ball, is also far too high.
On the list, sir. :up:
That'll do. :100:
Get this: it's a textbook copulation, but wholly unsatisfying to either volume of the Joy of Sex. Hahaha!
Good stuff. Thanks for the inspiration!!
So, the Kama Sutra is reading the Joy of Sex. It says "Ewww!"
Reason I was asking is that I read that the Olympics included 15-player Rugby in the early 1900s then stopped. More recently they added 7-player as a new sport.
Yes, I think that's correct, for the summer Olympics anyway.
Rugby Union - 15 players per team - has been featured on the Olympic programme four times: in 1900, 1908, 1920 and 1924. In Rio in 2016, Rugby Sevens made its first appearance at the summer Olympics.
You can't have a fulfilling Thanksgiving unless someone is willing to celebrate a Thanksgetting.
You're welcome.
Happy thanksgiving to all. :heart:
It's interesting the sport events in the Olympics that have appeared, been dropped, and perhaps one or two that no one seems to know if they occurred. Back in the 1950s in college I climbed rope for speed and worked the rings. Rope climbing in the Olympics disappeared before the 1936 games and a fair amount is known about it, but there were two rings events: stationary rings and flying rings, and I did some of both. The former exist in modern Games, but no one seems to know if flying rings - in the technical sense - was ever part of the Games. References to "flying rings" could have meant either one. The flying kind was a lot more dangerous, like circus acts with no nets. I didn't stick with it long.
Yeah, going right back to the Greeks, a lot of events have come and gone, no more chariot racing!
You might get a giggle at this one:
[b]"Art competitions formed part of the modern Olympic Games during its early years, from 1912 to 1948. The competitions were part of the original intention of the Olympic Movement's founder, Pierre de Frédy, Baron de Coubertin. Medals were awarded for works of art inspired by sport, divided into five categories: architecture, literature, music, painting, and sculpture.
The juried art competitions were abandoned in 1954 because artists were considered to be professionals, while Olympic athletes were required to be amateurs. Since 1956, the Olympic cultural programme has taken their place".[/b]
Did they do this art in a stadium? How long did they get? (Some of my oil paintings, take me months!) Were there any spectators? and if there were, would they not be bored stiff?
The sky is an ever-changing work of art. Where is that?
This is outside Denver, visiting for Thanksgiving.
When you finish a game 0-0, how can feel you've accomplished anything more than you would have if you had just sat around on the couch all day? It was 0-0 before they even went out there. I scored the same amount as both teams combined and I was petting my cat.
Maybe they should make the goal bigger and the ball smaller.
I could have stood up to remove my feet from the picture, but I wanted to show I was on the couch scoring as many goals as England and the US just scored in the World Cup.
Plenty of miles left in them. Not sure why you got rid of them. You're probably the sort who throws out not fully empty toothpaste tubes.
It grew that way in the magical forest. I expect in a few weeks it will shed gifts underneath it like it does every year.
Ask your dentist about that, but book right away. I hear it takes a few years to get in.
When you die, can I have first dibs on all your shit? It'll save you mom the stress of having to sort through your stuff.
There are a few Baywatch calendars I might have chosen over the Hoff's, but to each his own.
I don't remember that, but when do you mean exactly? I increased the number of discussions per page a while ago so that could account for it.
There are fourteen discussions on the main page that have been active in the past 24 hours, four in the Lounge. Is that relatively inactive? I don't know.
A few years ago.
Quoting Jamal
Maybe. What was the increase? /when?
Quoting Jamal
It feels more inactive than in the past, yes.
It is not. But as @Noble Dust said: Quoting Noble Dust
I feel the same. It is weird that my thread - I started yesterday - only got an answer from 180 Proof when I used to receive a big participation from all the members. It is like most of them are missed. For example: @Agent Smith takes part in all of the threads and is very active. When he is not around, I feel the site more silent.
Maybe about a year ago. It's 40 now, probably 20 before I changed it.
There are other factors. Time of the week, subject matter, obscurity or difficulty. In this case, the title appears to be a bad translation, and that could put people off.
"German philosophy lacks of escape valve". Is this meant to be saying "German philosophy lacks an escape valve"?
And the OP is basically just a quotation. That's rarely going to produce much participation.
Yes, I tried to translate it into English with my own interpretation but it wasn't so effective I see :sweat:
Nevertheless, I always translate the discussions I started because (obviously) I firstly think on the subject in Spanish and then, I do my best into explaining it in English. Literally most of them always had good results and participations except this one. To be honest, I thought: "these guys no longer want to discuss Yukio Mishima stuff with anymore" :lol:
I think it goes in cycles. A month ago there were a lot of threads I wanted to participate in. Now there aren't. I also find myself passing on threads where I don't have much to offer or where I think my opinion might not fit in.
When it gets a little slow, I start to think I should start a thread of my own. Maybe I will.
The urgent authorship of threads just to avoid emptiness is clearly hazardous. Who knows what invasion, what genocide, what famine, what disruption of the supply chain will be the result?
Nothing urgent. Just some things I've been thinking about. My threads almost always involve things I care about and want to examine more deeply.
So it's just a ball being kicked around a field, or is it more than that? Surely they can find a higher god to worship.
- George Orwell
Nice quote.
If the University of Georgia loses the national championship, I'm going to the grocery store and I'll knock over the green bean display, then I'll go to the pharmacy and I'll throw the candy bars on the floor, and then I'll call my wife to come get me out of jail.
That'll teach those fuckers not to lose next time.
And in so many places around the world they push football as the great equalizer, the bringer of peace, the base for a good healthy life.
22 guys running around a field trying to murder a ball by kicking it to death, then putting it into a net, might seem harmless to some. But them the hot sweaty bodies all hug and slap each other on the ass i joyous celebration, of creating losers of the other group of sweaty bodies who are lying around crying.
Then the pilgrims of the groups playing said "game" go and beat the shit out of each other like someone has just shit on one of their sacred grounds.
Sorry but i can think of thousands of better ways to spend 90 minutes of my life.
We seem to have lost all the bona fide physicists, they make interesting discussion. I suppose us crack pot philosophers drove them away.
I've commented on this. There's no one around - or at least no one who admits being around - to give a professional eye to the modern physics jargon bubbling away on the forum. Apokrisis is a biophysicist, I think, but he hasn't posted in a month. Out behind the shed breaking symmetries, I suppose. :cool:
"Inattentive" because ever since radio and television were invented, announcers warn about thin ice repeatedly every fall, along with reports of cold, wet, and sometimes dead children and adults being pulled out of the water. Particularly annoying inattentive Minnesotans dash out onto the new ice on snowmobiles, where--when they go through the thin ice--they sink into deep water. Cold, deep, dark, dangerous water from which they generally do not return alive.
Question: Is this phenomenon beneficial to the gene pool? If so, should it be discouraged?
I was once asked by a parent why I had done nothing about the kids hitting each other in the nuts at school. I nearly gave that as an answer. I really hoped that her darling son got serious injured because he was the one that started the stupidity.
Is this similar to voting Republican yet again and having their class interests smashed?
Have you heard of the Darwin Awards? Since these are given as awards, I think the idea is that the behaviour is encouraged.
I used to live in the Appalachians near a tourist spot. Every summer a hiker or two would walk right off the side of a mountain and die. Why?
That's sad, I think we all loved csalisbury. I hope it was peaceful.
I feel sad knowing. He was from the old PF. :flower:
Thank you for relating the news.
I don't know how else to really give him his due.
I feel he and I had a connection... and that makes me sad.
Really sad, I always got along well with him.
I am finding it very hard to process this. If anyone knows any more, please PM me. :pray: :heart:
Because falling from high places causes death. It has to do with the body's lack of elasticity. A ball will bounce. A body will bounce some, but mostly it will crush and get stabbed up with trees and then the person will become unresponsive.
I thought you worked at an ER and would have known this.
We can fix it!
You may not be American, so I'll judge you less harshly because you may be in the right where you are, but whenever someone questions my judgement in the US, I tell them it's judgment, not judgement.
That's how I judge people. Always have. Always will.
It has occurred to me that it is approaching December, so I am wondering if there are any plans or thoughts about the winter short story competition.
It's rescheduled until next summer. We're going to try to do it once a year now. We talked about it a few pages back in the shoutbox. Feel free to take a look.
;_;
They were well loved here. I shall miss them. We've been chatting for years.
Much like when one first looks out at a sunset at the Grand Canyon, a state of awe overwhelms, a single tear rolls down the cheek, and the purest silence follows.
Okay, that makes sense because 6 months comes round so quickly. I will look back a few pages because I haven't been reading the forum so much lately because I am looking for new accommodation because the property is being repossessed and everyone is going to be evicted. That includes the children upstairs, including the tall 11 year old girl who starred in your story, who is now 12 and even taller.
I believe that "judgment" can only be claimed to be the correct spelling in the case of a legal judgment. Outside the court we have the freedom to make our own judgements on such matters. I suppose you could put me on trial though, then I think I'd have to adhere to the judgment of the court, to avoid punishment. Fucking lawyers, think they have the power to cast their spells on everyone.
I'm sorry to hear that Jack. Hope you all find new and acceptable accommodation quickly. :pray:
F****** B****** profiteering landlords! :rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:
Why are we putting up with this SHIT?
If I had the power Jack, I would make free high-quality housing, a human right from cradle to grave.
NURTURE PEOPLE NOT PROFIT!
I'm away to sharpen my pitchfork a little more!
Maybe that's why they won't tell me where your landlord lives. :rage:
I don't know why we have to put up with so much.I live in London and as far as I know my landlord has gone off to Pakistan. Personally, I am in touch with advice organisations, with people who are trying to help, but the way I see it is that so many are being plunged into hard times. As far as my impression of England is that things were becoming so much harder prior to the pandemic. In the aftermath, so much has become tougher, with so much government legislation being pushed through silently.
I try not to be completely negative and but into conspiracy theories but I do wonder what is going on. There has always been the division between first and third world countries, in terms of life quality but I do wonder what is coming as the divide between the rich and the poor may become more exaggerated in the developed countries. Life, as we know it, is changing through technology, economics and politics in so many ways and it is hard to be aware of all of the many visible and hidden aspects which may impact on human living in an uncertain future.
So I read Jack's email as indicating he was being evicted due to a repossession, which could mean (and we both have insufficient information here), the bank is foreclosing on the property due to default of the mortgage and taking back (i.e. repossessing) the property. That would mean the landlord is losing the property, which would mean it is the landlord in financial distress, which somewhat contradicts your argument related to unfair profiteering by landlords. That is, not all landlords make significant profits and whatever housing crisis there may be, it's hardly up to property owners to resolve that.
This isn't to say that Jack's plight doesn't suck. It's just to say you've jumped to conclusions and placed the blame on someone who might have been a perfectly fine landlord who just couldn't maintain the property. I too could be wrong, and maybe his landlord is a slumlord piece of shit, but that's hardly something I can conclude from reading these posts.
And, no, I've never been a landlord. I'm just trying to offer a fair and balanced assessment here.
In the US they don't evict tenants when rental property goes into foreclosure. The next owner might want to keep the tenants.
Could it be that it's already sold and the new owner plans to demolish it?
I was curious if anyone here would be interested in participating on a book-discussion thread about Locke's Essay. I think it is marvelous and perhaps overlooked too frequently.
This thread would cover say, 4 or 5 chapters, but I was curious to see if there are enough people to merit the effort.
I'll try. Also having trouble focusing.
Yeah, my attention ebbs and flows seasonally, and now I'm hitting a rough patch.
In any case thanks for the reply. :up:
I think that I would probably rather be in the US rather than America. So much is hidden in the UK, under the guise of policies. Britain is probably not great any longer. So many people seem to be able to play with loopholes in the law and I wonder is this more unique to Britain or an aspect of human life in general. Have human beings become the masters of manipulation?
You'd have to look up the law that governs the particular state. Georgia, for example: https://georgettemillerlaw.com/happens-renters-property-foreclosed/
Well, I hope we are all watching very carefully and are not basing our lives totally on the seemingly very apt 'Well I'm alright Jack!'
I am glad you are in touch with local 'organisations,' what about your local councillors and your local MP. Have you been in contact with them?
What do you expect the end result to be from that fight? That he'll be granted the right to live there forever, or, do you suspect that at best he'll be afforded additional time and perhaps some limited compensation? I ask that because if the eventuality is that he will no longer live there, then instead of fighting for something that will never happen, maybe start looking for a new place and trying to receive whatever accommodation possible to make the transition as pain free as possible.
Always a wise way to go. It's important that I plunge my pitchfork into the correct target.
B****** nefarious landlord, banker, billionaire, king or messiah, I don't mind.
I don't even mind if you have a better way, that means I can leave my pitchfork where it is.
BUT, we can't just watch others suffer unfairly, for ever, and not try to do something to help them!
Do you agree?
Maybe it's just where I am. I don't think it's against the law to evict, it's just that renters are notorious for wrecking rental property, so where there are good tenants in place, they don't want to lose them and start over with a new batch of psychopaths.
The world is unfair, so that's a hell of a battle. If there is a housing issue that needs to be addressed, that's the government's role, not just dropping the problem on the landlords who can't pay their mortgage or the banks that can't collect their payments.
We also really haven't been informed of the great injustice as much as the great inconvenience. That is, if the net result is that Jack is going to have to haul his shit to somewhere new and he'll lose a few good neighbors he's grown fond of, that's a bad weekend. If it's bigger than that and we're looking at temporary housing or homelessness, then that's something more to consider.
I would do both, I would do everything and find out everything I could, as it would be about everyone in similar situations, not just about me. That's how campaigns and movements for change happen, a revulsion towards the current system. One voice can become a multitude very quickly if people are pissed off enough with what's going on. Even the totalitarian pressured Chinese and the theistically abused Iranians have demonstrated feelings such as 'you have pushed us this far, DON'T push us any further!'
The world is what people make it to be.
Quoting Hanover
The people elect the government in the UK and the people tolerate the nefarious behaviour of the rich, no matter what titles they use from investor/entrepeneur/landlord/banker/gangster or bishop.
The problem lies with the capitalist money trick. People are treated as objects in such a vile system.
I agree that we need to identify the causes and culprits correctly but don't try to suggest that rich landlords and bankers are having it tough to by conflating them with the very few 'landlords' who are genuinely having a tough time because the banks actually own all their properties.
I have little sympathy for those who intended to live of the backs of the poor but failed to do so successfully.
Quoting Hanover
As Jack has already suggested, there are more and more people in this situation, so it very much is 'bigger than that.' It does not sound like Jack is merely being inconvenienced.
I am not wishing to bombard the forum with my personal issues. I guess the reason why I am mentioning it at all is because I do see the issues raised as being connected to the state of the times. Having worked as a volunteer advice worker at one stage in my life I would have probably never urged anyone to sign the insubstantial contract which I signed. I only signed it because I needed to find accommodation in the midst of lockdown.
As far as British politics is concerned the underlying problem may be of rogue landlords. I read that the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is trying to address this. Taking this beyond my personal issues, I wonder how this stands with other countries. Issues of accommodation, standards of living and poverty may be variable, with an apparent division between third and first world countries.
So, I try to think about the practical, personal and political aspects in the fullest possible scope. I am trying to cope with the dramas which I encounter practically and on an existential level.i can't speak to the official landlord because he has disappeared in Pakistan. I am trying to get legal advice and trying to find accommodation, which is not easy when so many are looking.
The balance between the practical and the philosophical one is a complex area. So, I am trying to juggle both carefully. To be a philosopher on the streets or a happy fool living in luxury may be a complex area, going back to the quest and trials of many, including Socrates.
.
.
..
I am interested in any input from your local political representatives. Did you approach them or would you rather not discuss that aspect?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/anthropocene-anti-humanism-transhumanism-apocalypse-predictions/672230/
I live in a third world country, and believe me the difference is still just as big as it was before. As things fall apart in England so do they here.
Prices over the last 30 years have gone up by an incredible amount. Something that cost a dollar then now cost about $130.00 on average. And if that itself does not seem like a lot, the wages are not going up at anywhere the same speed. And the same is happening here with the difference between rich and poor, the divide is getting bigger.
I left England back in '75 and I am glad I did. I cannot imagine what the people are going to live like this winter. I don't have to worry about heating at least.
Don't know. Bleak House is all I know about English law. It's pretty poignant.
Homelessness and housing insecurity are prominent issues in Australia too. Rents are high and properties are difficult to obtain. There are some protections here. You can only be evicted by a government tribunal, not by any landlord. The landlord needs to demonstrate why you must go and tribunals sometimes side with renters. Generally even if the landlord loses their own property, renters retain some rights and are given time, perhaps months, to find somewhere else. You can argue your case at the tribunal. These protections were created by Labor governments. It's fair to say that our right wing party generally sides with property owners and businesses.
For all sorts of information on homelessness in the US, see: https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/homelessness-statistics/#:~:text=Percentage%2Dwise%3A%200.2%25%20of,in%20a%20state%20of%20homelessness.
0.2% of the population is homeless and of those 38.6% are disabled, 25% suffer from mental illness, 38% are alcoholics, and 26% abuse drugs.
Obviously there is overlap in those groups, but consistent with what is generally observed: The homeless rate is very low and the majority suffer from a mental, physical, or addiction issue that results in their not obtaining assistance.
It's a very serious problem if you are one of those impacted, and if it's something you feel passionately about, it's a worthy cause, but it's not evidence of a failed society or a need for major restructuring.
Living on the street is often better than living in slums and disgusting and dangerous rented accommodation. There are lies, damn lies and then statistics!
Perhaps you should have a chat with some of the real people in the country you live in.
Those experiencing serious hardships as a direct result of living in money trick driven economies, within which personal profits are far more important than people, number a great deal more than the 0.2% your misleading stat suggests.
Shelter's figure for England is about 0.43.
Hard to believe we are worse than the U.S for homelessness.
If a man lives in a shack in some hillbilly territory in the USA. Are they officially housed?
Homeless should include those who live in slums or rented accommodation not fit for pigs!
How many people are in the USA illegally and the authorities don't even know they exist?
The USA has at least 5 times the population of UK, so 0.2% of 330 million is more than 0.43% of 68 million. Stats are tricky little shit's that rarely impart useful or accurate truths.
The 'I am alright Jack' may be as meaningless as 'as 'Jack in the Box' for trying to understand the unfolding of life. I certainly hope that whatever I experience in life aids my understanding of life and philosophies. Sometimes, theory and practice can see opposed. How much in philosophy understanding comes down to theory or the experience of the nitty gritty of what it means to be a human being, in human experiences, es
especially suffering?
Anyway, back for some time again.
Good to have you back, Shawn. :up:
Sorry Jack, I don't follow your meaning. 'I'm alright Jack' refers to not caring about the situation of others. All that matters to such a person is that they and those they care most about are doing well.
A 'jack in the box,' is a pop-up toy with some push or windup control. What connection between the two am I missing?
I think it's both, they go hand in hand. Kierkegaard said that you can notice that there's nothing new in anything you go through. It's all happened to someone somewhere. It's happening to other people now.
There's melancholy in knowing this, but it's also a balm on a wound. If you get bored, that's when you should see yourself as unique, living out a story the world has never seen. This is also true, but sometimes the stress of that perspective is too much.
It's probably just my inability to understand what you mean, rather than your inability to explain what you mean. No worries Jack!
It is interesting to think about placing any of our own individual experiences in the wider experience. Today, when I spoke to an advice worker about my housing problems she reassured me that some others may have gone through similar problems. It may be important to hold onto this, with a certain humility, as opposed to a sense of specialness in what may appear to be unique.
Welcome back, dude. How are things?
Hey, just chilling and investing money lately.
Otherwise, every day I think about a pig.
How are you?
Adviser said: ''Some others may have gone through similar problems'' ?!
These are seriously scary times.
Best of luck, Jack. I hope you find something soon.
Quoting Guardian
Have you become more optimistic or pessimistic about politics as you've got older?
I've only just hit my 30s, and after being involved in politics through my 20s I'm disheartened that the people keep voting for such cruelty.
A great question that makes me sigh very deeply and run my hands over my face and struggle and conflict with myself about what I truly feel is my most honest answer.
I think I can only type a response like:
Sometimes I feel ...........
At other times I feel ...........
I despair of my fellows sometimes.
I think I understand why they do what they do and vote the way they vote ..... sometimes.
Sometimes I think there are too many politically ignorant idiots who are easily fooled too much of the time.
It certainly seemed easier in the past to know exactly who the enemy was.
Nowadays I seem to be arguing more with those who would have been my natural allies in the past and I can't concentrate enough on the more obviously nefarious b*******.
I tend to reach a point of despair and then choose to reject it and renew my hope and faith in my fellows.
I do think that overall, and in the fullness of time, we will become the united human race we can become and we will make a fair and just global human society.
We so desperately need youth to do better that we have, so don't give up on us. Please don't!
I suppose every older generation needs to make that plea to those coming up.
It's just that the progress that has been made was so hard fought.
That is absolutely fine, because unique experiences are part of life experiences. They may be glossed over at times in philosophy and it may not matter unless firm conclusions about what one should think or do are formulated on the basis of weak premises.The nature of human suffering and human needs may be a starting point for understanding of human needs, especially in relation to values in the fist and third world. It is hard to know where ways of life in the first and third world can be dichotomie or be compared in ongoing practical, social and political developments.
As you should. I'm ok. I found a working toaster oven on the sidewalk recently.
Donald Trump?
No, actually just practicing empathic mindfulness with a pig being the object of desire.
Pigs are humble.
Thank you, as it seems that you realise how difficult the time it is for some. At the moment, many in England and other developed nations have not got to the point of realising how it is becoming. I don't wish to be negative but at this point it seems to me that many are being brought to a brink or crossroads. The threat of homelessness is becoming an ongoing problem in England, and possibly other developed nations.
I am not sure to what extent it is about practical aspects of human living or about deeper aspects of philosophical possibilities. I am walking this tightrope of discovery and will try to do so with the best of my abilities, not knowing to what extent it is a personal quest or larger one. It takes me back to Gaugin's question, ''Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?' I don't wish to go into a state of inflated ego consciousness, about my own experience in this, but it a fine line between despair and the many faces of hope, as an existential journey.
[sup]— Max G Levy · Inverse · Nov 30, 2022[/sup]
Quoting Ancalle
Quoting Barber
Beware of older folk who talk about the good old days. Politics was always shit. I found the 1980's dispiriting. I was in my 20's when Reagan and Thatcher helped unleash neoliberalism on the world and set us up for today's culture wars and depleted community sector. I've generally found those in their twenties now to be pretty good.
Absolutely! I'm 76; the more I read history, the clearer it is that "The good old days were terrible!" The rich and powerful have always led (or at least could lead) charmed lives and everybody else worked hard all day for little reward. Anyone who got out of line and tried to revolt generally got shot, beaten to a pulp, hanged, or at least kicked out of the country.
Nostalgia depends on a bad memory, and one should always ask "For whom were the good old days great?"
Yep.
Fifty years today since Gough Whitlam was elected.
Back then there was hope.
True, comparing Donald Trump to a pig is an insult to all pigs.
The best days are yet to come!
I think I would have made that statement, if I had been born at any time in the past.
I think I would be typing those same words for quite a while yet, if I was born in the near future.
Now that I'm in Spain, half way up a mountain with only a single speed bike or electric ladies' bike for transport, in a town whose online grocery and food delivery possibilities are primitive at best--things that I took for granted in Moscow--I find I've lost five kilos and my diet is simpler and healthier. It helps that I'm not drinking (as much).
Current favourites are egg fried rice with fried extra-firm tofu plus broccoli, vegetarian chili with chickpeas and garbanzo beans, Serrano ham and manchego cheese, a monthly Galician rib-eye steak--the best steak I can remember having--, and mackerel on buttered toast with ketchup.
I'm on it. Canvassing the streets as we speak.
Lost me at ketchup.
They were better in that we were all more steps further from death.
Nostalgia is what gives us the ability to have remorse, regret, and tearful sentimentality so it's not all bad.
What you say is true. Much of the "goodness" of the old days are very much person dependent.
Nevertheless, lots of folk (not all) do have real nostalgia for childhood, when all was new and life felt like a constant adventure of discovery.
One gets attached to particular habits and cultural aspects which surely had some charm.
But, plenty of ugly shit too.
Or it could be the apogee of anticipation where expectation of the future is turned around to become a reflection of the past.
Planck's principle comes to mind.
"Planck's principle is the view that scientific change does not occur because individual scientists change their mind, but rather that successive generations of scientists have different views".
Or Tony Benn
"There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle. To be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up".
He brought universal healthcare and free university to Australia? And introduction or extension of legal aid?
Have these things been normalised in Australia now, or has there been regression?
:clap: I would recommend your local foodbank, night shelter, homeless unit or soup kitchen.
Jail's, or police stations/hospital A&E departments on a Friday or Saturday night would also be good for your survey of the dispossessed and/or disenfranchised.
You can chat to the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
SOOOOOOOO nice to read someone in the beginnings of their 30's quoting Tony Benn.
One of the best most honest politicians there has ever been imo.
Although I think Tony did believe the human race was capable of producing a fair society.
He also said:
The nature of the economic system should be a matter for public choice, and free market capitalism should not be accepted without any discussion of the rich variety of alternatives ... Unlike civil laws, economic laws are imposed on people with all the authority of immutable laws of nature. But the economy is created by people, supported by government intervention, regulation, statute and subsidy, and implemented in such a way that it gives substantial wealth and power to a privileged few, while the majority face a life of relentless work, stress and periodic financial insecurity.
Yeah, but Johnny Carson was great. Staying up to watch Carson was a rite of adulthood. I've liked other late night hosts - Letterman and Ferguson - but he has always been my favorite.
On the other hand, I have no great nostalgia for my youth.
Maybe one day Australia will catch up.
Did you get a pig on your farm?
Don't talk about my wife that way. Not cool.
Oh, my bad. At least she's happy. :smile:
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I just realized I spend most of my free time trying to recreate that feeling.
It's more difficult as you experience similar things to previous moments in time. So, there is less space available for a completely new experience.
Doable, but not easy.
I read someone describing this impulse as a definitive Generation X and Baby Boomer retail motivation. Buying collectibles and old shit from their childhoods (toys, tools, signs, clothes) in order to rediscover their authentic self through nostalgia. Might explain why so many 50 year-old men collect Star Wars toys. :groan:
To the extent I've rediscovered my authentic self, it's happened more the older I get. Philosophy is one of the ways I do that.
A lot older than 50 in many cases. Here is a pic of Doctor Robert Price (68). A highly qualified theology expert who used to be a baptist minister. (now an atheist).
The guy with the white beard in the image below:
Have a look at the contents of the shelf behind him.
"As I was coding this last project I realized I wasn't really coding a computer script... but manifesting my own life choices and logical processes in physical form to be used eternally long after I am gone. The errors/struggles/blocks I encountered were my own logical fallacies and shortcomings that manifest and "create runtime errors" in my own personal life and affairs, and so taught me to better detect and avoid them. In a sense, I was coding my own life, the final product was more than just a fancy script, it was a reflection of my own soul and innermost desires" ... eh something like that. You get the idea.
Anyway. I am considering creating a topic in the Lounge centered around web/server-side programming languages (PHP, Javascript ie. the "backbone" of most all web content and only skills I'd claim to be "rather proficient" at) to discuss philosophies and methods and of course give advice/instruction and how to get others started for free on their own local machine. Would anyone be interested in that? I imagine most here would be rather proficient/interested, once they get the hang of things, of course. And of course, like most things, there's always a few dollars to be made as well..
I know. Sad. As if the films themselves aren't piss-poor enough.
Sorry if it disappoints, but I am an avid Star Wars fan, I just don't buy any of their merchandise, but I do own 2 lord of the rings chess sets and a whole collection of star trek model ships, which are boxed in a cupboard. I am one of those over 50, sci-fi geeks and proud to be.
I always intended to gain ownership of the term 'geek' as a mnemonic for something cool:
Gorgeous
Erudite
Elemental
Kritter (yeah I know it's my own spelling).
I'm sure TPF folks could offer me something better for the inevitable Tshirt.
Can understand classic Star Wars and Star Trek, but LOTR never done anything for me.
I should correct what I said earlier. I was using the homelessness figure for England only and I calculated this as a percentage of the whole of the UK. Homelessness is actually closer to 0.5%, per Shelter's numbers.
I'm not sure what it is about my personality that leads me that way, but I am sure it's a superior trait of mine.
I think you really meant the more bemused ........ 00000000kaaaaaaaaaayyyy! But you are perhaps, just too nice a person to express it Tom, so I expressed it for you! :halo:
I am attracted to anything with the label sci-fi on it.
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
I wonder what the homeless figures are in Africa, India, Yemen, the Ukraine?
We humans still have much work to do! But I would bet that there is less homelessness and less piss-poor accommodation in the UK now, per percentage population, than there has been at any previous point in the history of our 4 nations. The socialist/humanist and in some cases, even theist-based, people of the past who fought so bloody hard for the improvements made, are the ones we can't forget.
We can't let them down by watching all they fought for regress back to earlier hell states.
No question
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
How many of them were Star Wars fans? Maybe this is the cause.
Quoting universeness
I wanted to make it a quick and very non-committal 'OK' so we could move along.
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
It does something for me... I puke at the mention of Tolkien.. :razz:
I don't know, I will attempt to communicate with 'the force' and find out if you work for the dark side.
There must be a branch of the fastest growing religion (Jedi) somewhere near me.
Is there any sci-fi you do like Tom?
Is Star Wars sci-fi? I thought it was a shallow adaptation of Joseph Campbell myth studies, with a sword and sorcery overlay, dressed up with little robots and bad latex make up.
I have nothing against sci-fi in its literary form, it just isn't for me.
Holding no managerial position of your own, you're in no position to delegate the task to we humans, leaving your only meaningful response to your own individual hands.
That is, what have you done to treat this problem now that you've diagnosed it? I'm just hearing concern and condemnation, but not a single board has been lifted, or am I mistaken?
Quoting Hanover
This is a bit like saying “I can’t get into jazz and find such things as Kenny G hopelessly boring”. One can obviously like jazz while also finding Kenny G hopelessly boring. Indeed, it’s probably a pre-requisite.
Science fiction is the pre-eminent twentieth century literary genre (kind of like jazz was in music, imo). It explores how technology and social change interact with psychology, history, language, and all the rest of human reality (come to think of it, fantasy sometimes does these things as well). It’s the fictional field of ideas and imagination and tends to be less concerned with the minutiae of mundane, everyday life. If the latter is your thing, SF isn’t the best place to get it. This is a matter of differing priorities and interests, not of better and worse.
Could it be because your knowledge of science fiction and fantasy come from TV and movies rather than literature? There are some gems, but most of that stuff is a bit rubbish, and lags decades behind the written fiction.
Just because someone is into science fiction and fantasy doesn’t mean they’re into Star Wars and Harry Potter. There is huge variety, from the tropiest pulp to literary art.
I don’t collect Star Wars figures, and this is not only because I remain bitter that when I was nine years old my parents bought me the rebel transport ship instead of a Millennium Falcon.
Note to fans of Star Wars or Harry Potter: I’m not saying they’re utter crap (or am I?).
I've obviously struck a nerve with you, which has outed you as a previously closeted scifier (a derogatory term I'd like to think I just coined).
I used Star Wars and Harry Potter as examples of the genre, but what holds true of them holds for the entire sci-fi enterprise (note the clever Star Wars pun reference). The same of jazz. It all sucks, from Kenny G to Kenny Z if there is such a man, excluding Ice T and Jay Z of different generes of course. Of course.
Quoting Jamal
Sort of a slap in my face. I've written some righteous shit.
Quoting Jamal
And so I've outed myself here in that I suppose that I'm less than a voracious reader. Fine, now we all know.
Quoting Jamal
Christmas is coming. Maybe they'll right that past wrong.
Is it your personality that leads you to write the kind of short stories usually submitted to the TPF Competition? Or what?
It's a pity the December 2022 one has been cancelled. You could have entered a sci-fi/fantasy and who would have guessed it was yours?
I had an idea but haven't a clue as to how feasible it is.
Your thoughts? @Baden @Jamal @Caldwell
What I had thought about:
An Alternative Creative Contest; a simpler way to post short stories simply for enjoyment and feedback. No big hoo-hah, just a giving and sharing in the Festive Season.
So, a simple thread or threads could be started by someone (Caldwell ?) so that stories could be posted anonymously. Authors would send a PM directly to Caldwell (or someone) with their story.
Any reader could then post their thoughts and give each story a star or two or three for how it made them feel, think and appreciate, perhaps giving examples from the story. Or even use emoticons like Jamal does in the Books thread :up: :100:
That might be fun... :chin:
I'm sure there must be a few authors who would/could have submitted a story. @Noble Dust @180 Proof @Jack Cummins...and more... @ucarr @hypericin @god must be atheist @_db @Baden @Benkei @Tobias...and more... @john27 @Michael @RogueAI @Athena...
Perhaps now disappointed at the monstrous turn of events - proper alien to the creative flow!
If you don't speak up, then Baden would seem to be right; that there is a lack of interest.
Don't let Baden be right, for God's Sake :scream:
Does that make any sense...at all?
Or is it beyond too late? I send this wish in forlorn hope, probably doomed to fail :sad:
Santa, are you out there? :kiss:
Glad to see I’ve become renowned for blazing that trail.
Hanover’s stories are far from straight realism, in my opinion. I’ll call it bawdy absurdism.
Nah. I think they're pure magic :starstruck:
I'm thinking the multi-orificed alien murderous anti-hero would have given it away.
Quoting Jamal
Your attempt to categorize my art satisfies my narcissistic need for self exploration, so thank you.
I see postmodern elements throughout my diverse and varied works.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature#:~:text=Postmodern%20literature%20is%20a%20form,both%20historical%20and%20political%20issues.
While absurd, I don't think what I write has that Camus nihilistic thing going on, nor that clear attempt to make a cogent philosophical point, so it's not absudism per se.
But enough about me about me. I re-open the floor to about me.
Time for Elevenses. Past.
Had to look up the term Elevenses. I think I'll adopt that custom in my office. It sounds so proper.
At 11, I will say, "Shall we take our Elevenses?" and I'll demand the response of "let's."
We will then make our way to the break room to our scones and tea.
Lovely indeed.
Scones are too much of a faff, by far.
Heed the wise words of Judi Dench in the 'Best Exotic Marigold Hotel':
I didn't exactly cancel it. I offered the opportunity in the mod forum for anyone else to take over and no one was interested, so it was cancelled by default, I suppose, as I had the star-defying audacity to limit my involvement to once a year. :smile: Anyhow, your idea might work and there's a whole category devoted to short stories that is open year-round here anyhow: https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/40/short-stories
Attlee's government transformed the country with the NHS. The trouble is, is the NHS run by generations of Tory governments any better than U.S healthcare?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63808516
Amity, please see my response to your suggestion the short story thread.
I like it...
haha! :halo:
Where?
Short Story Competition Discussion June 2022
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/760490
So, a new thread is coming right up. Look forward to that :cool:
Thanks for the clarification. I understand better now. Cheers :up:
Sorry, I edited a bit out because I thought Caldwell had edited her comment. But she moved it to the short story thread. Anyway in response to the edited-out bit, this is what I said earlier:
Quoting the Baden
Which is exactly right (I still think this). The other part I didn't mention is not a mysterious hidden reason, just another mundane personal consideration. Anyway, @Caldwell is kindly taking over, so over to her...
OK. Take care anyway :sparkle:
Quoting the Baden
Glad the decision to postpone until summer has been reversed.
Or at least that's what I think is happening :chin:
Wow. What did it take...?
Just someone else to volunteer. Though @Caldwell is not doing a full short story competition but a similar activity that will hopefully give those who were disappointed a chance to have some festive fun. Give her a chance to set it up anyway and all will be revealed soon. :up:
I'm looking forward to the Big Reveal. Thanks @Caldwell :sparkle:
And major :clap: :clap: :clap: to @the Baden for all his past, present and future hard work!
Too much? :yikes:
I've been reading science fiction and fantasy since I started reading things I didn't have to. The first book I remember is "A Wrinkle in Time." Even so, there aren't many of those books I would consider "literary art." Can you name a few of those you think of that way.
I see you are calling yourself "The Baden" now. For what it's worth, I've always thought of you that way.
Small 't'. I'm humble like that. And it was Caldwell's idea. Kind of. :halo:
It suits him. :halo:
Yep, good to know, bruv. :love:
Some off the top of my head:
Frankenstein, Mary Shelley
Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell
The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
The Handmaid’s Tale, Margaret Atwood
The Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe
Ubik, Philip K. Dick
A Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller
The Glamour, Christopher Priest
The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess
Hothouse, Brian Aldiss
Several H.G. Wells, a few Robert Silverbergs.
Others that are usually mentioned but which I haven’t read yet:
Neuromancer, William Gibson
Crash, J.G. Ballard
The Road, Cormac McCarthy
Dhalgren, Samuel R. Delaney
Never Let Me Go, Kazuo Ishiguro
Solaris, Stanislaw Lem
I’m sure there are many more.
Fantasy I’m less familiar with. I have my own reservations about The Lord of the Rings but there’s no doubt in my mind it’s a tremendous literary achievement.
Funny AND original. :up:
I agree, but I think the "t" should be capitalized.
Well, ok then. :smile:
Thanks for bringing it up. It was really annoying me but I felt it would be too petty to complain. I’m glad you don’t have such qualms.
Lol.
Oh lord, give me chastity and my old name back. But not yet.
Thanks. I have always resisted calling science fiction "literature." What it has meant to me from the beginning is books written for 13-year-old boys by men with the minds of 13-year-old boys. I acknowledge that is no longer true, but the excitement I used to feel reading "Tales From the White Hart," the "Foundation" trilogy, "Rendezvous with Rama," "Ringworld," and similar books now sometimes seems out of place. Grownups have taken over the enterprise, which I guess is inevitable and may be a good thing.
Quoting El Jamal
Don't change them back. Even now, I can feel the profound respect I have always had for you both ripening into reverence.
If they do it well and they’ve got great ideas, it’s literature, in my view. I’d be tempted to put some Asimov in the list too, despite the clunky prose.
But yeah, the Golden Age and the American pulps were part of a historically specific (and important) period in SF’s development, and there’s a lot else besides that, both before and after.
Wouldn't you want to work for NASA?
This should be high on your list. Terrifying. I would also include Memoirs Found in a Bathtub by Lem and We by Yevgeny Zamyatin to the list.
On point. Maybe @T Clark can comment on us setting up lunar bases on the moon. I suppose not many people would care; but it's long overdue.
You inspired me. No, not to go to work for NASA, but to get my son "Rocket Boys" for Christmas. Written by a West Virginia boy who grew up to build rockets. It was made into a great movie - "October Sky."
I don't have strong feelings. I've always been skeptical of such plans, but Elon Musk and his competitors have convinced me that there may be commercial value in space, if not in my lifetime (15 years as an optimistic estimate), at least in the not too distant future.
Correct me if wrong, but it's been directed by Trump that we return to the moon by 2025 and set up lunar bases.
They just finished up an unmanned trip that is supposed to lead to a manned landing sometime soon.
There’s no doubt Lem is one of the greats. The philosophical questions he poses feel colder and more academic to me, though, in comparison to Dick, who to me is much more visceral and existential.
Quoting El Jamal
I've read some of these. Some good shit. Cormac McCarthy I ususally find unconvincing, The Road, (for me) was bland and derivative. But I think his book Suttree (not sci-fi) is a masterpiece.
Frankenstein is an exceptional book by a remarkable young woman.
Also
Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury
Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
It seems I find intimate stories more engaging than the kind of sweeping saga bullshit of Dune, say.
:up:
Quoting Tom Storm
I don't mind a sweeping saga, but I didn't like Dune much.
Heh. I love Dune. I dislike Duncan as a character, in the grand scheme of Dune. But I like how much it focuses on economy and culture and the interplay between them.
I'm also a huge fan of Aldous Huxley.
The Ice Moon books are set on Enceladus, Titan, and Io in the near future. Intelligent life is encountered in Enceladus and [i]Return to Enceladus[/I], and one character from that pair of stories appears in quite a few subsequent stories, much farther into the future. A private Russian space company is an important element. An inadvertent product of their technology is a compact artificial intelligence which loads itself into a robot vacuum cleaner so that it can unobtrusively spy on its creators. The quirky vacuum cleaner ends up in several subsequent stores as well.
Morris writes "hard science fiction" which apparently means that the machinery is technically possible, even if improbable. There's no faster than light travel, for instance.
I've read all of his books and enjoyed 95% of them.
Is that a truffle hunter?
Well, I'm sure that it would search for truffles somewhere. But, at that size it must have found them all.
That's a good point. Does the master of a truffle hunter reward the pig with a portion of the spoils? It would only seem equitable. Perhaps that contributes to their high price.
Of course. Otherwise that would constitute animal abuse. Starving a pig is not morally permissable.
Or perhaps they're fed portobellos instead. Truffles are an acquired taste after all.
I believe they like in their diet fly agar.
:chin: After some quick research, I regret to inform the public that dogs are now used in truffle hunting because pigs do in fact love the truffles.
Pigs are quite forracious. Yes, that's a new word.
Excellent.
Just finished the latest, The Heir of Caladan, and I definitely feel done, though in truth I’ll probability be inclined to read along no matter how laboriously they drag it out.
And now the 'The' fell off the sign. But at least we're still havin' the craic.
Myth and sorcery are fiction. Robots and latex are products of science. A story which is not about real events and has such ingredients can be termed sci-fi, regardless of your personal opinion of its quality.
There's no accounting for personal taste. One man's meat is another man's poison!
I need no position of authority to reason with other members of my own species.
Neither do you.
We would need to know each other's life in a lot more detail to judge who has contributed more to helping others. Not a comparison I care much about as it's never been about 'feeling good about myself.' I have no idea what your priorities are.
The NHS is never safe in the hands of tory governments as they covet profits much more than people.
If the choice even became as poor as waiting for 40 hours to get help from A&E services in the UK or having to sell my house to be able to afford a new hip in the US then I would still far prefer the UK NHS to the 'good health if you can afford it,' US system.
Quoting universeness
"“Relentless cuts” to the health service could be behind 30,000 deaths in 2015, argued researchers in two articles published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine". The website obamacarefacts (which if anything would inflate their figures) states "Depending upon the study, we can derive that between 20,000 and 45,000 Americans die each year due to a lack of health insurance".
So roughly the same number of tragedies. However, as a percentage of population, we are worse?
Actually, I was referencing George Lucas who said at Sundance in 2015, "Star Wars really isn't a science-fiction film, it's a fantasy film and a space opera." Regardless of quality assessments, I have generally heard it described as science fantasy.
[sup]— Al Arabiya · Dec 4, 2022[/sup]
Iran says hijab law is under review, as state media dismisses claims feared morality police has been abolished
[sup]— Akhtar Makoii, Arash Azizi, Alex Stambaugh · CNN · Dec 4, 2022[/sup]
Quoting Montazeri · Qom · Dec 3, 2022
Some light ahead (for Christmas)?
Yeah, but as I already said, that's the NHS under the capitalist tories. It is no surprise to me at all, that the NHS is constantly under attack by capitalism and the tories.
Faff or no faff, I took your comment as a challenge and my scones are baking as we speak. I'm even bold enough to tell you that before they're done, so I'll be forced to report the outcome regardless.
They're doubtfully authentic English scones because I did add dried cranberries and the amount of sugar seemed diabeticaly American.
I'll send you pics. This was my recipe: https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/scones-recipe/
Having dumped on all these authenticity seeking people, I find I have no advice on how they might find their allegedly authentic selves, or what they ought to do with them should they figure it out.
Yeah, I'm sure he did. Probably to cast the Star Wars net as far as he can, to attract folks like yourself and any other folks not attracted to the sci-fi genre, to his movies. I am sure he would connect elements of Star Wars to every known genre of film, if it could make him more money. I think I will just keep calling Star Wars, sci-fi, regardless of the ad moves of its director.
I find I find myself when I'm not trying to figure out what others want. Not that I was overly other oriented in the first place, but time alone is where you locate yourself.
It's not always great what you find, but the first step to the cure is the diagnosis.
My guess is that your house, your clothes, the things you say are a whole lot more Bittercrankish than when you were young, carefree, but gave more a fuck what others thought.
Or perhaps I project.
. Wikipedia
I guess if you really like a story set in the distant future, far far away, with some military hocus pocus, then it's a space opera instead of science fiction.
I appreciate the points you are making regarding nuanced nomenclature, but I don't really care about the difference between sci-fi and space opera or the myriad comparisons that have been made between star wars/star trek/cowboy movies/fantasy movies/horror movies/soap operas/war films etc etc.
Sci-fi is just a form of personal entertainment. It's not like we are discussing something as important as Carl Sagans Cosmos or Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man.
I enjoy the Star Wars movies and will continue to do so.
If Tom thinks they are shit then he has the right to feel that way. Perhaps he prefers Jackie Collins novels and American teenage rom coms :joke: Thats his right to!
Actually that's another way of looking at Star Wars (the first one) as a teenage rom com. The fact that Luke wants to fuck his sister just makes it deeper - more like Greek mythology - so what's not to like?
I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with these apparently faff-free delights.
I am no baker and don't do doughy things well.
They look delicious and now I need to go put the kettle on.
The faffiness I was referring to was that of a different kind of scone.
But also associated with yumminess; a holiday treat.
Something along the lines of:
https://www.travelaboutbritain.com/recipes/cornish_cream_tea.php
Scones are way too sophisticated to be dunked.
McVities Chocolate digestive biscuits on t'other hand...
I won't post any pics. That Yorkshire guy already beat me to it! :monkey:
Edit: I can't believe there's also a recipe for making tea!
https://www.travelaboutbritain.com/recipes/tea.php
Not after he found out she was his sister. Make up your mind Tom, in one post you think the films are shit and in this one you type 'what's not to like?'
You're not reading closely, U. I said what's not to like about this interpretation, not the film itself. How are you expected to understand Deleuze if you can't focus, Comrade?
:lol: Which Jackie Collins novel did you steal that crap line from?
Quoting Tom Storm
Oh dear, instantiations of Jungian archetypes, post modern multi-faceted interpretations... what muck!
While one CAN play those sorts of word games, it is best remembered that Star Wars (and a big et al) are in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th place commercial entertainments appealing to the demographic most likely to spend money going to movie theaters. Without some cash, an analysis of multi-faceted post-modern Jungian instantiations won't get one a cup of coffee.
I assume we have seen serious cinema which can bear the weight of cultural analysis games (like Bergman's films, for instance) but it seems wasted on Star Wars. Did I like Star Wars? Of course. I thought it was pretty good entertainment.
Mass market entertainment has a legitimate place in a mass-market society for the amusement of the masses. Art house cinema is fine and dandy, and I've seen my share top-shelf stuff. But sometimes we want a movie that allows us to escape from the horror show of everyday life for a little while.
:up: Especially when the basics are present. Evil empire, lots of good special effects, the voice of James Earl Jones and the reassurance that the good guys will win in the end.
Us all sore cement was we.
Not warmed then with glares. Not glutting mush
under that pole the lightning's tied to.
No farrow-shit in milk to make us randy.
Us back in cool god-shit. We ate crisp.
We nosed up good rank in the tunnelled bush.
Us all fuckers then. And Big, huh? Tusked
the balls-biting dog and gutsed him wet.
Us shoved down the soft cement of rivers.
Us snored the earth hollow, filled farrow, grunted.
Never stopped growing. We sloughed, we soughed
and balked no weird till the high ridgebacks was us
with weight-buried hooves. Or bristly, with milk.
Us never knowed like slitting nor hose-biff then.
Nor the terrible sheet-cutting screams up ahead.
The burnt water kicking. This gone-already feeling
here in no place with our heads on upside down.
Les Murray
Is this a whole book of pig poems? Don't know.
Here's one poem from the book. Philip Levine is from Detroit. He's a good poet, I think.
Animals Are Passing From Our Lives
by Philip Levine
It's wonderful how I jog
on four honed-down ivory toes
my massive buttocks slipping
like oiled parts with each light step.
I'm to market. I can smell
the sour, grooved block, I can smell
the blade that opens the hole
and the pudgy white fingers
that shake out the intestines
like a hankie. In my dreams
the snouts drool on the marble,
suffering children, suffering flies,
suffering the consumers
who won't meet their steady eyes
for fear they could see. The boy
who drives me along believes
that any moment I'll fall
on my side and drum my toes
like a typewriter or squeal
and shit like a new housewife
discovering television,
or that I'll turn like a beast
cleverly to hook his teeth
with my teeth. No. Not this pig.
What does a pig symbolize for you?
Firstly, you seem to have missed that this was parody. :wink: Nevertheless, don't forget that the leading Jungian/myth scholar who wrote the book which inspired Lucas to make the movie (Joseph Campbell) thought Star Wars was essentially an inventory of his ideas articulated clearly for mass consumption. I think this is accurate. It's easy to shit on this process but without this impulse the movie wouldn't have been made. The 'escape from the horror show' bit is what audiences bring to movies.
That will happen from time to time.
Quoting Tom Storm
I didn't find Campbell very interesting. Every now and then people will fail to find famous intellectuals interesting.
Quoting Tom Storm
What do you mean? Don't you think Hollywood (general term) sometimes sets out to give us an escape from the horror show of everyday life?
Of course, one can also escape from the horror show by attending a baseball game, symphony concert, getting fucked silly at a bathhouse, or drinking beer.
In my head, pigs symbolize earthiness. They are of the earth more than goats or eagles. They are a symbol of enthusiastic generative life. On the farm, one can observe pastured pigs' enthusiasm for life as they root, wallow, gobble, snort, and squeal.
I don't think anyone here has yet said he was interesting. But Lucas thought so.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Of course. Escapism is part of it. But I'm saying that many writers/filmmakers try to do something more ambitious than merely entertain. Often there are years of thinking behind a project that lasts 2 hours on screen. As we know, producers and the studio often cut things out and dumb it down on the basis that a mass audience only wants undemanding stuff. If the mass want dumb shit to watch, it doesn't mean the makers didn't try to provide more.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Yep. Or writing stuff on a forum.
Both things happen, true enough. I'd say that solid artistic productions (not necessarily "art house" fare) can provide as much escape-from-the-horror-show as schlock and dreck productions do. There are a lot of great movies that do not and will not appeal to your average teen age cartoon adventure character fan, but which will satisfy a lot of adults.
Do you remember "I Am Curious Yellow?" It was an "erotic" art house film from Sweden, 1967. It was a must-see film for the progressive set. We were hoping for a pleasant Swedish romp with escapist potential. No such luck. It was as-bad-as-if-not-worse-than-reality. It gave us headaches.
The number one drawing card.
Is this a prediction of the future, if humans go extinct?
Yes, please adopt me, don't eat me!
The best hangover cure there is!
A bacon roll with HP sauce! Yum!
Maybe 2 is best!
Please don't eat me!
So you're saying "Go fuck yourself." Is that right?
As I indicated in my alliterative post, I wasn't asking for a pig-free Shoutbox. Just a bit of restraint.
It would be nice if that were voluntary. I hope we don't get to the stage where we have to police pig pics.
Ok we won't eat you Shawn! As for the pig ......... the empty roll beckons!
Vegan bacon does not look appetising. I have never tasted it though!
This is a police pig pic:
Anyway, I'll stop for today.
And I didn't care for you
We would zigzag our way through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
Existential pig.
Pigs are awesome.
The last good Floyd album.
You're Australian, right?
So C.S. Lewis was a Southerner?
It's a character who says it, so maybe that signifies that the character is Southern. The South is the wealthy part, right?
It's English. Generally Australian English is English English. Hence we say lift (elevator) and boot (trunk) and behind him (at back of him), take away (take out) and our spelling: colour and maths are English too. But it is changing thanks to social media and other factors.
So Northerners aren't considered low class or anything, right?
Varde says it's Northern English. The Southerners say "ass."
They didn't 40 years ago.
Well, yes. In the US, there tends to be a stereotype associated with American southerners. They're supposed to be less intelligent, sort of lower class. I was wondering if the same thing exists in the UK.
Yes, they did. Freaking C.S. Lewis was born in 1898. He said "ass."
Because you're all part of a hive mind?
Do you ever find yourself explaining that resistance is useless?
I doubt it. Are you talking about what the editor may have changed?
Ass was used to describe a donkey. Arse was used for bum.
Well, you're wrong, Tom. Cambridge professors would say to each other "Don't be an ass."
By the way, you are an ass.
Indeed. But this means don't be a donkey.
No it doesn't.
You're being full of shit.
Lewis was using it in the standard British English sense of fool. It’s like calling someone a donkey. An ass is a kind of horse, or just a donkey, so “ass” is used in unflattering metaphor.
Arse is different. It means the buttocks or backside and always has, and it’s used in the UK as well as in Australia.
Correct.
What, if anything, would you say about it?
Personally, I find it harsh, pompous, schizophrenic, self-righteous, horrifying, dystopian, dyspeptic...
A soundtrack for today, in other words.
But talking about subjective musical tastes without becoming Jack Black in High Fidelity is difficult. :grin:
I experienced the other end of the spectrum when a German colleague said this softly every time the boss showed up on the job site: "Arschloch." After those heartfelt performances, everything else is weak beer.
Nothing much. There were fights over the Floyd cannon when I was young. I'm not a fan, so what I think doesn't matter.
Quoting 0 thru 9
I can see that.
I fall into the camp that Tom mentioned. I'm also not really a Waters fan; left to his own devices the cynicism of his songs is ugly and not tasteful to me. Of course, by himself Gilmour is too soft and lacks bite, hence why the golden era is where the meat is, in my view. They were a yin and yang thing.
That reminds me of the use of 'burro' in Mexico and the Hispanic portions of U.S.
It is relative to the situation. A gentle ribbing versus a final judgement. The latter gets pretty rough.
Looking forward to comments.
Ok... the owners of the pig and cow are engaging them in rough sports contact for their future job as a pigskin football and a leather baseball mitt.
Sorry... that was tasteless. I’ll try again.
All right, the pig is actually a Catholic bishop, and is performing the laying on of hands / hoofs in the confirmation sacrament of the little cow. (the Church having a shortage of priests and bishops allowed pigs to serve. But not women? They’re still trying to join the 20th century. We’ll see pigs flying airplanes first).
My interpretation is that the human is stupid.
Imagine a pig suckling on a cows udder to feed itself. This act of altruism on behalf of the cow and pig satisfies the swollen udder and the thirsty and parched pig.
Logic and reason are on my side.
There's nothing logical about the picture.
[sup]— Hyemin Son · RFA Korean · Dec 2, 2022[/sup]
N.Korea Executes 3 Teenagers for Watching S.Korean TV Shows
[sup]— Kim Myong-song · The Chosunilbo · Dec 5, 2022[/sup]
:o Medieval plus nukes and missiles
"North Korea has publicly executed three teenagers by firing squad – two for watching and distributing South Korean movies and one for murdering his stepmother – two sources who witnessed it told Radio Free Asia.
The alleged crimes committed by the teens, estimated to be 16 or 17, were equally evil, authorities told terrified residents, who were forced to watch, the sources said.
“They said, ‘Those who watch or distribute South Korean movies and dramas, and those who disrupt social order by murdering other people, will not be forgiven and will be sentenced to the maximum penalty–death,’” a resident of the city of Hyesan, on the border with China, where the execution took place, told RFA’s Korean service."
They equated watching a South Korean movie with murdering one's own mother, like there's a moral equivalence.
I don't know how you conclude that's a female cow. We have limited information based upon the picture, but could just as easily be some sort of goat or even sheep, but I'm going with it being a bull, which would end in a different result if the pig attempts the suckling you've suggested.
That's entirely possible.
I only talked about the altruistic act of a pig suckling on a cows udders that are swollen with milk. Both prosper from this act.
You mentioned bulls or some such.
Curious suggestion that I misunderstood. Impossible. I'm usually spot on on such things.
Yes, they are animals after all. But, pigs are humble and so are cows. So, they're apologetic about their behavior.
Fair point.
Amusing
They have no inhibitions, so they must be embarrassed all the time.
Isn't it the opposite?
Imagine going around doing inappropriate things all the time because you have no self control. Wouldn't you feel embarrassed?
True. It was a joke that didn't quite launch: a dog who feels embarrassed all the time because he can't stop himself from humping people's legs.
Write the micro story. Maybe mimic @Hanover's style to throw us off the scent, as it were.
I'm not feeling anything sprouting from that seed.
:smile: Ok!
Plump bagels sounds good. Can’t get them here. I mean, there are bagels around, but I’m thinking they’re nothing compared to what you get in New York.
I realized I was low on iron-rich foods so I’ve been eating a lot of liver, both chicken and beef (I hear pig’s liver is unpleasant). Fried with onions and chopped up asparagus in olive oil and butter and served up on toast, preferably a toasted plump bagel. It’s important not to overcook the liver. Rare or medium rare is good.
Once you go burr you can't go back.
They say the New York water does something special to both the bagels and the pizza. I think the bagel dough is also fermented overnight.
Do you like liver? My only experience with it, other than Foie gras, was when I ordered some mystery meat at a Dominican deli counter and discovered it to be liver. The hazards of being an adventurous eater.
I love it, yes. And kidneys, hearts, and … actually I draw the line at intestines, brains, pancreases and lungs. Although come to think of it I love haggis and that’s sheep’s lungs in a sheep’s stomach.
Interesting. I've never had heart. Seems dicey. I don't mind intestine; I've had some really good pig intestine tacos. Beef tongue tacos, when done right, are phenomenal as well. Brains I would try for some reason...the rest, no.
Quoting Jamal
There's lunch counters here but they are few and far between. Pre-made hot food in trays, very cheap (or used to be). It's stick to your ribs grub; slow cooked beef, chicken, pork, liver, pinto beans, usually swimming in rich brothy sauces, with plenty of stewed onions, served over plain white rice or seasoned yellow rice. They'll often have odd ephemera like chicken soup or fusion-y pasta dishes incorporating latin seasonings. It's a good working man's lunch.
I’ve had duck and chicken hearts. Very popular in the Southwest of France, where I used to live. Very tasty.
Quoting Noble Dust
Sounds like classic peasant food. Good stuff.
Do you use that for iced coffee?
Guts, yes; hearts, no? Doesn't make sense. It's muscle tissue -- not viscera like tripe or chitlins. I've tasted pork gut -- disgusting odor and texture -- but not tripe. I've had calf brain, long time ago. Tasted good; odd texture. Then bovine spongiform encephalopathy came along and no more ox tail or calf brain. I like liver, despite it being a chemical dump. Liver dumplings are good too. Hard to come by, though.
Kidneys? Nice texture, good in a cream sauce with spaetzle; some people find the flavor off-putting. Sweetbread? I'd like to try. Do birds have a thymus gland? T cells?
That’s how it gets cold. I use my youch grinder for hot coffee.
I’m a complicated man, BC.
Sure - I've eaten camel's hump, crocodile, goat's head soup, emu, lizard, snake, witchetty grub, kangaroo, ox tongue, the livers, hearts and lungs of innumerable beasts in various European dishes, and I was once offered broiled domestic cat - but I said no - the guy was mad, with suspect hygiene.
My daughter's girlfriend is a grilling/smoking fan. I was joking with my daughter about getting her this for Christmas:
Whole Alligator - Skinned with Head and Feet on. $214.99 from Amazon not including shipping. Oh, what a wonderful world.
As far as I know, this is not available in Australia. But then, all you have to do is waltz down to the billabong, bash a croc over the head with your didgeridoo, and slip it on the barbie with the shrimp.
It's a nice fat looking pig...
Clarky you gotta tag me. I didn't see this. I would have made a smart remark if I'd been quoted. Now it's too late.
Thank you for your precise and excellent system monitoring.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
On the flip side, every rose has its thorn.
:grin:
It's just a pig looking for some food. I guess, it might be a he since the pig looks hungry.
Here's him from a different angle:
I believe that a kosher pig will one day become a reality. But, only if the Hebrew messiah declares it so. What if Christ makes a return, will that count @Hanover?
I'm confused. Why would I tag you for a post about the migration of American population.
I thought it was a continuation of the hot/cold joke.
I was right in the middle of a brilliant post about metaphysics or the Tao Te Ching or some other bullshit. Now I forget what I was going to write.
There never was a first Christ, so how could he return?
So, you rule out the chance of Christ becoming the anticipated Jewish Messiah upon his second coming?
Pigs wallowing...
I never thought about the cultural context of Jesus's second coming. I guess he'll probably arrive in a tricked out space ship with a lightsaber in one hand and a blaster in the other. The 12 behind him as a tactical support team, night vision goggles, ear piece walky talkys, the whole thing.
I'm not convinced he is of the proper Davidic lineage, although some say he is.
That's my major reservation. A lesser issue I have relates to the impossibility of resurrection of the dead and the incoherence of divinity in the flesh.
But let's first resolve the issue of proper pedigree.
So, in Jewish tradition only Davidic lineage can become the Messiah?
So, the other issue is his resurrection, which is understandable since we end with Jesus' story after he disappears after his resurrection...
Nice talking and learning about these things.
Yes, about 15 years ago I was convinced (had Jesus been reborn again) that people would regard him as mentally ill.
Yet, after observing the world more deeply, I doubt my thoughts 15 some years ago would be accurate anymore.
Well, come on, have you read a history book? Does Herod's Massacre of the Innocents ring a bell? What about Moses' illegitimate upbringing?
You better believe you're not convinced. Neither were the planted would-be assassins among those whose business it was to know. Sometimes the simplest tricks are the best tricks. They sure do age well. :D
Some say...they're still there. Waiting.
Quoting Hanover
I'm sorry are we still talking about religion? You know that thing where a super being creates an entire planet and all life on it basically by speaking? A bit like buying a house then saying you don't believe in property, no? Just because a thing isn't in front of you and you don't have to deal with it mentally doesn't really make it any more or less coherent, does it?
It looks forracious!
I want to share a brief story realted to this.
My grandparents are from Toledo and they always raised pigs for food. I remeber a big pig in the farm and my granny told me: dont approach to the big pig. The last time someone did this was a girl and the pig only left the red shoes of the girl after eating her! I remeber having fear about the big pigs of the farms... but in the other hand, I remeber crying with my cousins when they died to make ham, chorizos, etc...
End of the random story and sorry for my grandpa's massacre, Shawn.
When I was in Andalusia it was always Iberico pork secreto on the menu. Best pork ever.
So... mystery meat.
It is! :up:
Si, carne misteriosa.
Quoting AP
Fake news. :death:
My wife was a terrorscreamer and we had 3 children, all born without eyes, but instead had just overbroad foreheads. One went on to be a fighter pilot, but was soon electrocuted punished for his indiscriminate blind weapon firing on crowds.
True story,, except the part about pigs. I've never been around them.
My sweetie.
107 words. Why didn't you submit it to the story contest?
It's high time you get a pig for your farm. They're intelligent and sweet animals that love human company. I suppose you shouldn't be afraid of a pig eating you as long as you don't starve it.
Now you know it's mine. I'll have to come up with another gem.
I do want to further develop my language hack talk. It's somewhere between child make up talk and mental derangement.
Words like gatorhog, terrorscream, electrocuted punished.
As an example, I wouldn't say "I'm really upset with you for lying to me ," but I'd say "I'm hate pissed at you for liar blabbing."
Be on the shit lookout for that wordscramble in the storyparade.
My wife has really taken to chicken farming and we're going to get a bigger coop. Whatever it is you see in pigs, she sees in chickens.
No pigs, but chickens. Hmm, sad day.
It's a happy pig being washed.
And the good thing is they only sacrifice goats, not pigs...
Such a common reaction! Mostly happens when folks see what's under a scotsman's kilt! Or perhaps when Hanover's sweetie first saw him disrobed!
Yeah yeah yeah, food and all that. Satisfy yourself by adopting a pig, it's really fun to be with a pig.
Strange reason to starve a pig. Spare the pig and just pet it.
Clearly @Hanover has stolen Michael's password.
Kind of a big asks to round up all the piggies and put them in one pen.
It's not a rule, but it has often been the practice.
I'd be happy to let Shawn post his pigs in peace, but I'd rather he not do it in the Shoutbox to the extent that he does. As I noted, when that has happened in the past, moderators have often requested posters to start a separate thread. Why is that an unreasonable solution?
If it bothers you, I'll tread more conservatively about posting about them pigs so often. Sorry to have been a nuisance...
However, I do agree with @T Clark. I’d prefer to see fewer pig pics.
Bravos. :clap:
Madafaka and mofo. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm sorry for asking you so many times. But, why must God be atheist?
He has low self-esteem.
But, nothing better could have been created, so why would he suffer from low self-esteem?
Well, from his best-selling biography it's pretty clear god has very low self-esteem and personality problems - needing to be worshiped; needing to be feared, needing to always have his way, needing... no, needy, so needy. He can't even have a son without having to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy a rule he made himself... you get the point. Poor insecure fucker can't get anything right and needs constant validation/veneration.
So based on that, do you think @Shawn puts knickers on his pigs?
God knows he exists. So he doesn't need belief. Those without belief are atheists. QED, god is an atheist.
God was not created. So nothing better could be created does discount things that have not been created. There are certain things that exist without creation, and god may feel insecure to share space with them.
Such things are: time (debatable), space, waters, darkness, gravity, directions. These are empirically evidenced in the Bible, when it says, "In the beginning the spirit of god floated above the waters."
There are other things that potentially existed, but have not been realized to exist yet: the law of non-contradiction, mathematics, logical structures, blow-jobs, and syllogisms.
Regrettably, that's not a thing I've had the privilege to fathom this life. Until now that is. I think any individual with such an affinity for pigs is quite well-rounded and at one with most if not all of the base joys of life. Such needless garb would be an artificial barrier between pig and purpose.
:lol:
Quoting Outlander
I carefully made no suggestions as to purpose. I just wondered that he might also include lipstick as perhaps a parody of Barak Obama being accused of insulting Sarah Palin with his comment:
'You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
Thank you. As a peace offering, I give you Charlotte, my friend Laura's pig:
She's humble. That's all I can discern from her in the picture.
She's had a hard life. Laura rescued her from a bad situation several years ago.
Are we talk’n slaughter house or domestic abuse?
She was treated badly by her previous owner.
Kind of an insane thought considering that over three million pigs are treated badly and slaughtered every day of the week.
I don't know, have you seen the damage a wild pig can do to a man's yard? It's awe-inspiring. Mostly considering none of it is really intentional. I really couldn't say who I'd bet on in unarmed combat, a group of three million pigs or three million men.
Ah, Spinoza, in a nutshell with a side of I am.
If you ever decide to sell TPF merch, I can supply AI generated art for t-shirts. There are options in the lounge AI thread.
I don't get it.
How can we care about Laura’s pig being treated badly when there are literally millions of pigs around the world being treated badly and slaughtered every day? It’s insane.
I agree, it seems like a travesty over what's happening to pigs around the world. But, Charlotte is a nice reminder of the sadness and brute suffering of pigs at large.
But, Charlotte is becoming happier every day. She's in better hands.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
I have some other interesting artistic ideas of a pig sitting on a Freudian sofa with a psychologist asking it, "So why are you concerned about your future?" whilst eating eggs with ham or bacon. I'd title it "Appetite".
They’re very cool but the plan is to commission some artwork from @praxis when we start selling mugs and underpants.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-expected-pass-bill-protecting-same-sex-marriage-2022-12-08/
Will this help the democrats in the next election?
Does this act as a small respite for Americans, horrified by the overturn or roe vs wade?
Is the GOP beginning to regret their dalliance with all Trump alignments? This new law had cross party support.
Is America beginning to show some green shoots of progressive politics?
One can only hope!
I wonder when we will see something good come out of the current Westminster mob in the UK?
Good plan.
That is not a recent picture. It's about 6 months old. She's fine. She always looks like that. She is treated well by someone who loves her.
Please update us with her recent picture. It's easy to make a pig depressed, so I hope she isn't struggling with it.
Sorry. I don't have any more recent pictures.
When the guillotine is busy!
A busy French guillotine - Current Westminster mob in the UK.
Connection?
Nicola Sturgeon just revealed her plans to tax the rich a bit more so, some good stuff coming out of Scotland. No striking nurses here either as Nicola managed to make a deal with them to, (well they have been given an improved offer they are going to vote on, on the 19th Dec)
Oh, I think I get what you mean now. You are simply suggesting that the best option for the British people is to decapitate every MP currently in Westminster.
Do you call for REVOLUTION sir? :scream:
You gonna do da choppin?
Lot's of claret involved sir!
Have you the psyche?
Could we not just vote them all out, ban party politics and start a new progressive political system?
Might take a bit longer but it might save you from seeing many horrible scene's in your head.
They've been around since the invasion of 1066, so I'm not holding my breath. We could do all that, but it doesn't seem to involve anything good coming out of them. You want some good to come out, you have to open them up.
Drawn and quartered?
Seems messy.
I think we would be best to continue to introspect rather that start to vivisect bad MP's.
I agree, a dependable political system that is actually benevolent to the vast majority of those it represents, seems to be taking a long time to arrive but what we have now is better than what they had in Rome or during and after the English, French, Russian or Chinese revolutions.
Then rather than 'let them eat cake,' 'let them have UBI m'lud,' or else there will be civil disobedience at a national level. Hopefully non-violent, but that's up them.
Gandhi did remind us that an eye for an eye can just make the whole world blind. We need wiser ways, but we must keep insisting, that we do insist, that governance MUST BE for, of, and by the people.
I know you really mean they have no bread NOW! and yes I agree.
Foodbanks and now ridiculous necessities like 'heat banks.' But look at what's happening, we are getting nearer to national strike conditions in the UK, whilst the tories give more handouts and more protections to the rich. They have lifted the cap on bankers bonuses, they wont significantly tax the disgusting profits of the energy companies. They wont cancel non-dom status. On and on it goes.
Even the economic 'middle' are struggling in the UK. Tick tick tick tick ....... BOOM! Will be the result, if they push the people too far. We are not the serfs or peasants of old!