creativesoul

So they're facts(considered states of affairs) regardless of whether or not they exist?

I don't think so. I mean the discussion has been about "facts obtaining" and what that means. How do you get from there to us obtaining facts?

Modality then? Possible worlds semantics?

Perhaps. Show me what you mean...

I do not normally employ such a framework. So, I'm here to consider it...

So what is it before it obtains?

Same question to you Sam... What do facts obtain?

I'm just trying to make sure that we are on the same page, so to speak... Are you asking me to answer the question I posed to you?

I may be completely mistaken, for I do not find the notion of facts obtaining to be very helpful... However, it seems to me that statements obtain tru...

That framework presupposes that a thing is not a fact unless and/or until it somehow gains it's status of being so(unless, and/or until it obtains). W...

What do facts obtain?

The rules of correct inference...

You're arguing with your own imagination.

No true scotsman

That is rhetoric.

This conflates things. For one, you've offered a definition of knowledge that says that all knowledge must be the result of a syllogism. That's false,...

A statement's meaning is about the statement. Being about the statement involves the statement.

Are these examples of the same understanding in different languages? How does understanding not involve language seeing how in each case it is set out...

Right. An illusion of a dog is impossible without a dog. That is because an illusion of something is what it is as a result of it's resemblance to tha...

Example?

False belief doesn't equate to illusion...

Let me help you... There is no such thing as an illusion of the soul.

Exactly, What's the problem? Show the argument, I just did.

If there is such thing as an illusion of an external world, then there is an external world.

I've never argued that.

It's not what it is an illusion of.... Hence... there can be no illusion of X if there has never been an X.

Rubbish.

Stop hand waving and show the argument.

Is there an argument or objection in there somewhere? What of a unicorn?

This is false. I've just argued for how that's the case. I also argued that reason is not necessary for knowledge. If you agree with everything I just...

Doesn't follow.

That's a remarkable difference.

I find that there is a significant difference between assuming an external world and being existentially dependent upon one.

And exactly what premisses would you not say were assuming an external world?

My apologies... :confused:

Exactly.

If knowledge requires reason, and reason requires thinking about one's own thought and belief, then knowledge requires thinking about one's own though...

There can be no illusion of an X if there has never been an X.

If I've used the qualifier "contingent" in this thread it was inadvertently. I avoid that because I reject modality and severely restrict using possib...

A review... Does "there is a cup on the table" count as a premiss? On my view it can if and when one is using it as such. Use is what makes it a premi...

Shared meaning requires another mind. So your objection is that shared meaning doesn't require a plurality of minds, all it requires is an illusion th...

Cause it can be fun and informative. Don't act like I'm the only one of us that's a dick sometimes... An illusion of a plurality of minds is not a plu...

Follow the argument being given. Neglectful rhetoric doesn't suffice.

Well, I'm certainly no angel here... However, you've shown no mistake. I'm more than willing to look at such a showing... What sort of proof would it ...

Are you claiming that shared meaning doesn't require a plurality of minds?

Follow the argument being given. Neglectful rhetoric doesn't suffice. The questions you ask, if they are sincerely asked, can only be answered by me, ...

Thinking about one's own thought and belief is existentially dependent upon language. Language requires shared meaning. Shared meaning requires anothe...

This is neglecting the natural evolution of thought and belief, particularly regarding the complexity increase.

Sure it can. If we know that solipsism requires metacognition, and metacognition requires cognition, and cognition requires an external world, then we...

What difference would that make? The thoughts in one mind are not one mind. The claim you're asking about says "One mind is not different things." It ...