creativesoul

I've seen no good reason for denying that we can. Available evidence proves we do. I would venture to say that surveys would show us that it happens f...

The cat believes there is a mouse behind the tree. <------that's holding a belief. The cat's owner saw the same events. The owner also believes a mous...

Read the opening and second posts in the debate.

I see no reason to suppose that in order to have a belief one must be aware of the fact that they do. Not all belief anyway. Let's say Jack became awa...

The simplest explanation is the best, assuming there is no loss in explanatory power. What I've presented here is as easily understood as it is explai...

Yeah. That's odd to me. Not the word. The word I've seen and used. Odd that Banno would object to such a clear cut case.

For Pete's sake... If we knew it was not running, we would not believe that it was telling us the right time! If we believed it was not running, we wo...

When we want to know what time it is, and we look towards a clock to tell us the answer, we believe that that clock is telling us the right time. We b...

There it is! If he had thought about his belief that that particular clock was working... Why would he do that? He wasn't engaged in a metacognitive e...

Are we taking our critical thinking caps off?

So, Jack looked at a clock that he did not believe to be working in order to tell time?

I'm amazed here. What is so difficult to understand about the stopped clock? I think it goes to show us how mistaken convention can turn into dogma.

Was the clock he believed to be working not stopped?

Jack believed that that particular clock was working. That particular clock was one that had stopped. Jack believed that a stopped clock was working. ...

Are you saying that Jack did not believe that the stopped clock was working?

As am I.

My own... Influence? The scope is far too broad to say. Some influence is unknown as well. :wink: There are arguments made throughout that thread. It'...

There's much to be read here

Do you see that I've just negated the notion of Jack's belief being equivalent to Jack's attitude towards that belief, when that belief is put into pr...

Would you like to see the basic ontological arguments/framework grounding the claims regarding language less belief? We were heading there earlier, bu...

We are thinking about belief here. So, the meta-perspective is par for the course. It's not a flaw, it's a feature of our doing so. We can know that J...

There are some crucial distinctions to be drawn and maintained when discussing belief. If Jack wants to know what time it is, and he unknowingly looks...

No. Checking to see if a belief is true is checking on the belief. Checking on the belief is thinking about the belief. Thinking about the belief requ...

Yes. Correlations. Yes. In saying that the cat believes there is a mouse behind the tree, I'm saying that language is not necessary for holding the be...

I'm not sure what you're doing here recently. The quality of your contributions has taken a sudden slide downhill... Too bad.

You're conflating your account with what's being taken into account.

While you both seem fine with not incorporating meaning into this discussion concerning the content and form of language less belief, I'm not. All bel...

So, before humans... reality took the form of a proposition: subject-predicate? We know better.

Denying the role of naming and descriptive practices seems to miss the boat entirely. From whence comes propositional form, if not as a direct result ...

I've no issue talking in terms of belief being about something.

As a result of watching it happen, a cat and it's owner both believe that a mouse is behind a tree. Only the owner(assuming they are a competent langu...

Undoubtedly, it is quite possible(probable even) to be wrong without knowing in what way. However, discussing some of the ways that we can be is not i...

I would think that the private language arguments are inapplicable to language less belief.

Indeed. We most certainly do. Can we be wrong, and if so in what way?

All things we name and describe, though some are non-propositional in their content, take the general form of a proposition when taken account of with...

As compared to believe that - event/situation - is true? I've no issue that I see with belief - that - event situation, but it's the "is true" part th...

So then, back to where we were... What can we know, beyond any doubt, about language less belief?

If X is equal to a mouse is behind a tree, then X is either the belief or the events/situation. Are you saying that in the belief that approach it is ...

This sounds more like the conventional theories of meaning which presuppose symbolism. I'm not averse to them entirely. I find it absolutely necessary...

Obsessed. :lol:

Having an attitude that X corresponds to what is amounts entirely to an attitude about X. If X is the belief, then having an attitude towards X is hav...

Playing around

Perhaps, but is it of any consequence? X equals there is a mouse behind the tree does it not?

Are those the only options, and are our options mutually exclusive? I would say that the first steps would be more of an armchair approach to set out ...

I reject the rules of entailment on the grounds that using them to characterize another's belief can lead us to say that another believes something th...

So, because language less animals cannot speak, it makes it impossible for us to know what language less belief is about or what it consists of? Surel...

If you go to the opening post of this thread, you'll find a link to the debate that this thread is about. My opening post in that debate does exactly ...

I've no qualm with that. As before, I agree that the sound is meaningful to the cat, and it seems we also agree upon how it became so. It was the bit ...

I do not. The ability to think about one's beliefs is not equivalent to the ability to hold and/or have beliefs. Clearly the former is existentially d...

Indeed. They will neither confirm nor deny with language use. They won't tell. Banno has said much the same thing on any number of occasions, telling ...