creativesoul

..."A" country is not a class of countries.

All cases of successful reference are existentially dependent upon fixing the referent. A referent is fixed via naming practice(initial baptism), desc...

There's a bit of irony here. I've been charged with invoking a notion "successful reference" that is purportedly moot and irrelevant to N&N as a resul...

Rubbish. There are all sorts of statements that I know are true but cannot be proven by any means. Formal logical proofs cover even less.

My qualification "purportedly" acknowledges that I may not agree with the pre-conceived notion's criterion. It is the criterion none-the-less. A descr...

Whatever, of course I believe that. It's also true.

No??? The charge was that you are equivocating with your terminological use of "definite descriptions"... You've neglected to draw and maintain the me...

Something else just occurred to me... The notions of reference/identity that Kripke's targeting seem to be the ones that claim and/or lead to claiming...

If you're continuing on the bishop notion... all bishops become queens, unless it is not one of theirs, then they become pawns. If your remark is abou...

Then you're equivocating. There have been numerous descriptions that are not capable of picking out a unique individual that you've referred to as "de...

As much as I'd love to get into this. I'm not. It's too far off track. Besides, I just wanted to explain how and that your charge of irrelevance was u...

Bishops move diagonally.

I've already answered this. Being mistaken is always a result of having false belief. It is not the only result. As it pertains to the earlier parts o...

I find the notion of 'absolute truth' at least just as flawed as you. It's not helpful here.

That's not what I mean. Let me clarify... Having an opinion that I do not agree with is having a different opinion. Having a different opinion is equi...

Putting the notion of successful reference to good use... The impasse between Banno and Janus is a direct consequence of incompatible frameworks attem...

Being mistaken is relevant to everything ever written, spoken, and/or otherwise uttered. Being mistaken is not existentially dependent upon formal log...

Well, in that case, you're both sorely mistaken. :wink: "What does 'Thales' refer to?" is a case of successful reference if "Thales" has a referent. T...

What counts as successful reference underwrites this entire thread. Seems to me that that is not established and/or determined solely by the words we ...

All questioners asking that??? Some perhaps could be. Definitely not all. You're assuming precisely what's at issue here. Seems that all definitely as...

Yeah you and Banno are talking about different things as well. He's pointing out that the questioner successfully refers to Thales without themselves ...

Ah I wasn't worried about anything like that. That stuff is nearly inevitable. I just realized that my own analysis here was treating false descriptio...

We were. Much of that is on my part as well... My apologies.

Gotta run. Catch you chaps later...

Then that's not a case I'm talking about. There are numerous ones where there is nothing true in the description and yet successful reference happens ...

Then what grounds your objections to the actual cases of successful reference by false description?

There's a bit of conflation between what we're doing when referring to Thales by false description, and what is going on when we take account of that....

I thought it was by definition that definite descriptions must be true.

Well done Banno. You proved my argument better than I could have. You are right to point out the conflation of true/false descriptions. Definite ones ...

Yeah, I don't know what else to say, so I'll take a stab at showing you where our positions diverge. It is worth noting that that divergence is largel...

The steps I must take(what's necessary for me) to outline cases of successful reference that do not include definitive description are utterly irrelev...

Then you're aiming at the wrong target. This bears repeating:One can easily outline cases of successful reference that do not include definite descrip...

Just answer the question... When you say that I should be able to produce an outline of a simple scenario without resorting to any definitive descript...

Well, I'm not so sure that the consequences of Kripke's take on what counts as essential parts are unacceptable. However, it does seem to be a possibl...

I actually think that Janus fails to meaningfully draw and maintain the distinction between what our report of cases of successful reference takes(wha...

Aren't you two at all concerned about where the consequences are leading?

One can easily outline cases of successful reference that do not include definite description. One cannot outline cases of successful reference that d...

Just answer the question... When you say that I should be able to outline a simple scenario without resorting to any definitive description, are you t...

Why? First of all, I'm not confident that you even know what I'm saying. Therefore, offering an example which proves the point(and they most certainly...

Why ought I? There have been more than enough examples here in the thread and in the lectures which satisfy those conditions. I've drawn my conclusion...

Well not exactly... Rather, I should be able to outline two scenarios(examples of successful reference), one in the actual world, and one possible wor...

Well, that's much closer... Definite descriptions are not a necessary part of successful reference within possible world scenarios. Definite descripti...

That's one part of all this that makes me cringe, the notions of a posteriori and a priori.

What's so difficult about using the language I use as a basis for questions about what I'm saying?

Speaking in terms of "do without" cannot take account of what I'm saying.

As a result of their being known a priori?

That would be essential to successful reference, not essential to it's existence... Can we substitute here? Necessary for successful reference, and no...

I'm merely pointing out the fact that all knowledge of elemental constituents(that something is an elemental constituent) depends upon naming practice...

All knowledge of elemental constituents(essential properties?) is existentially dependent upon naming practices. Not all elemental constituents are. S...

If all context is dependent upon language, then it would follow from Quine's conclusion that there are no essential properties independent of language...