schopenhauer1

Answered that here: Also here: Okay, but this is an example of aggregate above dignity of people already existing. For the reasons I highlighted above...

But then you are contradicting yourself as far as using people. Look at my argument above regarding that in the case of the future child (as opposed t...

There's a lot of stuff already discussed in this thread, so anything I say now is liable to be taken as the sum of all arguments I have made.. So keep...

I don't think so. This has a lot to do with the heuristic we are using to analyze the moral case. You are using a purely aggregate heuristic and I am ...

Yes agreed.

I guess the latter.

The principle to not cause unnecessary harm on someone else's behalf.

There was no you with a right to not be born prior to your birth. Once you are born, then a violation has occurred as unnecessary harm could have been...

There was no you, but could someone have prevented harm by not having what could have been you? Would you have been born to be deprived of anything "g...

I'm sorry you feel that way. Don't know what to say. However, recruiting someone into the game with suffering so that I can help the people already in...

I do. If the lifeguard can prevent all harm for a future person, then he should. No other things are required to consult. But I don't think ethics inv...

Does the life guard exist? Does the child exist? Their interests are more than "not being woken up". A child not born, has no such interests like "not...

Because you are pinning the people born back to violating harm as the only way to overlook dignity. You don't look out for certain interests of people...

For the reason I wouldn't make a society of life guards to defend the public or cannabilize a person from the next tribe to help my tribe out. As is t...

Yeah?

Yes, but with the caveat that if you know that life has suffering for everybody (it's not a paradise), the indignity comes not only from violating con...

I've gone over this prior in the thread. The parent can prevent the wholesale suffering of a future person by not having them. As you mention, no "one...

But you are assuming that I follow this aggregate model. There are two scenarios here. One can absolutely be prevented. One can only be relatively pre...

But I think you might be right before the edit.. In this scenario, you are worried about outcomes. "Only have children when it is likely that doing so...

Yes, there are some distinctions to be made to my argument: 1) There IS a difference between bringing a child into existence vs. being alive currently...

Fair enough. Doesn't really change the compromise that takes place in the room and bringing someone into the room who wasn't there before, so that the...

I'm not so sure, this is the full story. We certainly are drawn to socialize, but I think the picture is more accurately captured by Schopenhauer with...

Edited the first quote a bit there.

Maybe I didn't understand what you were arguing for.. Did I have a typo? I'll have to look back. I meant that, waking the lifeguard up to save the per...

I patently think this is an extreme, to create a whole new life for the sake of the people in the room. Because he already exists and so will have to ...

But I don't apply it in extremes. Rather, I recognize that there is a substantive difference in how it is applied to someone not yet born and explain ...

The problem is that none of these analogies get to really what's happening.. By procreating someone, you are enabling the conditions of harm. That is ...

Are you using your family member in this case? I'm not so sure. If that is the (weak) example you are going to give, then I would say that is indeed t...

Ah, so I just think that a) We can't know if they will be equipped (that's more the approach of @"khaled", but I agree.. there is that 10% or whatever...

Another strategy.. Act as though one is already right, but do so with as much condescension in tone of the "obviousness" of your opponent's argument b...

I would simply add to that, that by coming at someone by being completely antagonistic and rude, you can try to throw them off their "game", creating ...

This is probably the one I see the most, and even Schopenhauer named it (and saved it for last) as "The Ultimate Stratagem".

But you can say that about any ethical claim.. Why? Why? Why? Why? So then, let's turn this a bit and look at your thought process. First, why would c...

Before I rebut this, do you have any comments on this part:

I would just say that perhaps you might want to look at the original foundations on which your particular AN stance was using. I find there to be a lo...

It's bound up for us, the already existing.. We essentially have the binary existential choice of keep existing or die. We don't have to put a new per...

I tried to ask you to stop with the vitriol and you refused. That's your deal.

Just imagine you are not debating me, your bitter opponent apparently- can you see ways, even if you cannot under "Echarmion" just somehow, looking be...

Perhaps you can try to answer that first based on what I said. If you get it wrong, I will correct you, but I believe I have stated it already.

Dude you lost your chance to argue with me, as you have completely disrespected me and attacked me personally. In these debates, you can debate the ar...

Oh I'm not going through this again. You have to do the hard work of reading what we wrote on this already, so not giving a full response to it. What ...

To those concerned about political actions.. see what I said about the difference between the role of politics and ethics.

And great point.

You are not getting the point, sir. The fact that someone was put into the situation of "play the game or kill yourself" is the point. You have to tak...

This is the exact callous thinking that makes procreation wrong. Forced into de facto circumstances of survival..etc. But if you don't like the game-s...

Yeah, but this again, is not my main contention. If you are not convinced that the efficacy of using probabilities is not a good argument against aggr...

Again, this isn't even my main contention. I was almost not going to bring it up due to this kind of response. But where the probabilities of how it a...

Hi Cobra, really good points.. And I agree with most of them, especially the specific causation issue being a strawman in that OP. Can you elaborate o...

I just don't buy into this kind of aggregated utilitarianism. My view has always been person-affecting. That is to say, the locus of ethics is at the ...

Because it's a foregone conclusion you are always going to unintentionally cause some harm once born. Try your best, but the outcomes simply won't pan...