If you want a Toyota you better buy it now. The yen is surging.
Thanks for the tip. I just moved all my money into a Toyota vehicle portfolio. I have an amazing inventory now. Come by and I'll get you into that dream car you've been wanting for some time now. I do dealer financing where no one is turned down regardless of credit. The first 100 buyers get a free undercoating, the perfect protection for those salty winter roads.
Hey does anyone use the word "snazzy" these days. Anyone mind if I bring it back?
Yeah, with a couple of friends I use it for guys who have taken too much trouble over their outfit. We generally accuse them of getting their stuff from a boutique called, Mr Snazzy Cunt.
My brother, who--and this might be relevant--moved to Australia 15 years ago, mocks me for wearing V-neck t-shirts, because he says they "look gay (not that there's anything wrong with that)".
What if humans evolved from pigeons and so we eat by pecking on the ground, but also shitting all over the place?
universenessDecember 08, 2023 at 11:52#8596840 likes
Reply to wonderer1
That is why I preferred to parody my perceived aspects of him in the 'Rhubarb Rhubard' clip, I posted earlier. Of course, such comedy creations can parody aspects of other shoutbox posters, not just Hanover.
I found myself connecting almost every character in that vid clip, to a shoutbox regular.
I think a 'spitting image' episode of all the TPF shoutbox regulars would be a TV comedy hit!
My brother, who--and this might be relevant--moved to Australia 15 years ago, mocks me for wearing V-neck t-shirts, because he says they "look gay (not that there's anything wrong with that)".
I wear V necks that have such deep V cuts that my pecker hangs over the top of the V. My brother doesn't think it's gay. He's very supportive. Sometimes he'll even use his pinkie to push Mr. Willie back under my shirt. So helpful!
It's the snazzy little purse I sling over my sassy little self that gets him all jazzy to were he says "Girlfriend, I don't even! What side of the fence are you even on?"
Of course, such comedy creations can parody aspects of other shoutbox posters, not just Hanover.
I haven't clicked on your links, but as long as I know you spend your time looking for videos that remind you of me, I can rest assured that I remain relevant.
In other news, if you want to learn more about me and the types of shirts I wear, see the post above.
javi2541997December 08, 2023 at 12:38#8596940 likes
What if humans evolved from pigeons and so we eat by pecking on the ground, but also shitting all over the place?
I do not know if that would have happened. What I nonetheless know is that pigeons are sophisticated animals: They were used as messengers in ancient times, and now they are used for spying purposes. I attempt to explain - and warn - you folks to be careful when pigeons appear around you, randomly.
What if humans evolved from pigeons and so we eat by pecking on the ground, but also shitting all over the place?
Once when I was a kid, I wasn't eating very much at dinner, so my grandmother told me that I ate like a bird. I then started slamming my nose down into my food like a bird. She then told me not to waste food because kids in Africa were starving. I think she told me that because that was what all grandmothers were taught to say about wasting food.
Anyway, the face slam into the mashed potatoes killed. The crowd called for an encore.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 08, 2023 at 13:25#8596980 likes
hey were used as messengers in ancient times, and now they are used for spying purposes. I attempt to explain - and warn - you folks to be careful when pigeons appear around you, randomly.
I rented a beautiful farm, way out in the country where I did not see any pigeons, as they are city birds. The principal beauty of that farm was that it supported me very well with a hugely significant grow-op. One day I noticed a pigeon hoping around the barnyard and when I approached, it took refuge in the barn. From that day on I was subsumed by paranoia, everything I saw or heard indicated an imminent raid. I was forced to leave the country and seek refuge myself. % True story *
* Despite endless philosophical discussions concerning the meaning of "truth", epistemologists insisting that "true" must be used in a true way, Hanover demonstrates through his Shoutbox incursions that he is the ultimate professor of the true use of "true".
javi2541997December 08, 2023 at 14:03#8597020 likes
I absolutely believe in your story, and although we use a lot of irony in the shoutbox, it is obvious that what we say is true in most cases. Regarding your story, I have a question. Are you Dutch? Because when I found out about 'grow-op,' Microsoft said that this comes from Dutch.
On the other hand... According to my searches, 'grow-op' is related to cannabis. But I am fully aware that you are a formidable citizen who respects the law. Were you referring to winter squashes with 'grow-op'... Right?
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 08, 2023 at 14:12#8597030 likes
Reply to javi2541997
I don't think respect for the so-called law is relevant. What is at issue is respect for enforcement. I don't know what those spying pigeons see through their glass eyes. Didn't they see weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Spying indicates imminent trouble, prepare yourself.
Reply to Hanover
I told my mom to give me an envelope so I could send my leftovers to China, where all the starving people apparently were.
I'm presently sitting in the emergency room with a swollen tongue from an allergic reaction. They gave me epi and a bunch of steroids. So, your life could be worse. That's the point of the story.
I don't think respect for the so-called law is relevant.
It is, mate! Of course, it is relevant to be on the side of the law. For example: I wanted to plant an apple tree next to my house, but the place I chose turned out to be part of the neighbor's property. I decided to respect the law and plant it within my own boundaries. I slept well that day, realizing that I am an honorable citizen. :smile:
universenessDecember 08, 2023 at 15:43#8597300 likes
I'm presently sitting in the emergency room with a swollen tongue from an allergic reaction. They gave me epi and a bunch of steroids. So, your life could be worse. That's the point of the story.
I told my mom to give me an envelope so I could send my leftovers to China, where all the starving people apparently were.
I'm presently sitting in the emergency room with a swollen tongue from an allergic reaction.
Your mother bought some sketchy off-brand envelope at a dollar store. The glue was made out of god knows what--maybe pangolin. Pangolins are nothing but trouble--Covid, for instance. Next time get a QUALITY envelope from the USPS. They sell envelopes with pangolin-free glue.
And a star in your crown for sending food to the starving Chinese iPhone 15 factory workers.
Your mother bought some sketchy off-brand envelope at a dollar store. The glue was made out of god knows what--maybe pangolin. Pangolins are nothing but trouble--Covid, for instance. Next time get a QUALITY envelope from the USPS. They sell envelopes with pangolin-free glue.
And a star in your crown for sending food to the starving Chinese iPhone 15 factory workers.
A lot of deer are killed on the side of the road and they're perfectly edible. I will take your advice with the pangolin-free glue and send the roadkills to China. And then I'll make a tik tok series about going to China to visit with the recipients and see what delicious meals they made out of it, how it really made a difference in their lives, and how you can help fund this service to mankind. I can't believe nobody thought of this yet.
Reply to Mikie Funny thing about the universe, it all seems to come together sometimes as if knows what it is going. Coincidence maybe.
Just read this somewhere else then came back here to see your reply.
Me: Do you need to go outside?
Dog:
Me: Outside?
Dog:
Me: Do you need to pee?
Dog:
Me: Go poop? Go outside?
Dog:
Me: Ugh. Fine.
Dog:
Me: [gets coffee and gets comfy on couch]
Dog: You won’t believe this.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 09, 2023 at 00:53#8598200 likes
I always thought doves were country pigeons, just not as snazzy.
According to extensive Google research, the difference between the two is that the dove is a friendly country bird, and the symbol of many good things, like peace, love, honesty, and tranquility, while the pigeon is a city bird and a nasty pest, perhaps as the result of human induced inbreeding which dates back thousands of years. The city bird is the symbol of many bad things, dirt, filth, noise, hate, and spying. However, there is no "scientific" difference between these two symbols, so you'll never really know if you're looking at a friend or a foe. The dove/pigeon is a master of disguise.
Granted, I’ve had to do so what feels like 50 times
That's one of the strategies -- take the dog out every 20 or 30 minutes and praise them lavishly for each act of excretion. Some dogs are easier to train than others.
Eventually the human in the relationship will get sick and tired of going outside 2 or 3 times an hour. Hopefully the dog will be housetrained by then. Dog training works best when one really has nothing very pressing to do. Then you can heap attention on the dog which they will appreciate--for a short period of time until they need more attention. "Short" might mean 5 seconds for a young dog.
Dog training works best when one really has nothing very pressing to do.
Luckily I had the day off. 5:30 was earlier than normal for me though.
Just gotta learn to pace yourself. This is the second time I’ve done this in a year, so I knew I needed to hit the gym and eat well just to keep up. It’s also harder with another dog who’s basically still a puppy herself.
All of it enhances patience, empathy, etc. I’m probably getting too old for this. But he really is fucking adorable.
25000 years ago, some smart wolves saw that 'fucking adorable' would get them a lot farther in this world than howling and snapping. And so it is. We serve the dog.
"Dogs make us human" Temple Grandin said. It's too late (I feel) for me to get another dog, have always enjoyed them immensely.
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover My work had a pigeon problem 10 years ago. A guy from local government came in and placed poison baits on the roof. For the next week, pigeons fell out of the sky, like heavy autumn leaves, landing on the ground with a brief and final flutter. It was like a portent for the end of the world.
javi2541997December 09, 2023 at 06:55#8598490 likes
Reply to Mikie Hey! That's a beautiful puppy. I wish him the best and a life filled with energy and health. As @BC said, dogs are immensely enjoyable and loyal friends. I had a Boxer who passed away in 2017, and since 2019, I have had a Prague Ratter. Different breeds, but amazing experiences.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 09, 2023 at 11:49#8598700 likes
Reply to BC
So true. Obviously, due to the difference in life expectancy, getting a dog equals dealing with the death of your dog. Definitely something to consider.
Reply to frank What am I, David Attenborough? Oh and don’t forget feral cats and pigs - billions of these fuckers too. Antipodean fecundity seems to know no limits…
They spy on us and currently work for the government, sharing our personal data...
It is outrageous, isn't it? The European Parliament just passed a draft that will regulate the use of ChatGPT, but they are not aware of how dangerous the pigeons are for our privacy.
Ok, I'll keep playing for now!
To who you are and what you want. To your ability to demonstrate personal intent. To your legacy. To how your life impacts others. The word is so important that 'relativity' is part of probably the most important theories we have, about the universe we exist in and experience.
To what Frank? and how do you know?
If you prefer to just play the abstraction game rather than answer my questions then I can play that game very well, imo, but it's a very old and rather tired game and very few people are any good at it.
I thought pigeons, like can fly from place to place. Not that they "infested" a single location.
It's called roosting, hence the fortune being made by companies around the world putting up spikes and bird netting to stop them from roosting in public locations. Pretty soon you have hundreds using your building as a home base, flying in and out of open windows, landing on tables, looking for food and as @javi2541997 says, they also often report on our movements to government and the tax department and can make our lives a living hell.
So if a cat prowls a "roost" building, what happens?
Well, if they are appropriately trained in counterespionage by the CIA, then there's a fair chance for a small victory. But overall the pigeons win. No cat can climb up a sheer brick wall unless retrofitted with gravitation field manipulators using technology we obtained from the Roswell alien ship. I think you have to sign a C11 form for access; cats don't have that authority.
They have different voices, and I much prefer the voice of the mourning dove, which I hear every morning, but I don't think that's why they're called mourning doves.
Why does every character in Alexandre Dumas' "The Count of Monte Christo" sweat incessantly? Is it just that hot in Europe or did everyone simply have a serious cocaine problem in the 1800s? :chin:
I'm only 30 chapters in, but if I had to take a shot for every time the author made a reference to sweat or perspiration being on someone's brow I'd be in some sort of medical coma by now. Minus the typical plot of love, betrayal, and revenge, the whole tale up to now is basically a saga of various sweaty men performing various sweaty deeds in varying states of fortune and misfortune.
Really though, it's a marvelous read. Thanks to whomever recommended it in the literary discussion thread. I am currently following along to the free (public domain) audio book version on YouTube. A very welcome and stimulating change to mindless video games or television when not in the mood to go anywhere or do anything. Great to enjoy during mealtime as well.
Pigeons on the grass alas.
Pigeons on the grass alas.
Short longer grass short longer longer shorter yellow grass. Pigeons
large pigeons on the shorter longer yellow grass alas pigeons on the
grass.
If they were not pigeons what were they.
If they were not pigeons on the grass alas what were they. He had
heard of a third and he asked about if it was a magpie in the sky.
If a magpie in the sky on the sky can not cry if the pigeon on the
grass alas can alas and to pass the pigeon on the grass alas and the
magpie in the sky on the sky and to try and to try alas on the
grass alas the pigeon on the grass the pigeon on the grass and alas.
They might be very well they might be very well very well they might
be.
Let Lucy Lily Lily Lucy Lucy let Lucy Lucy Lily Lily Lily Lily
Lily let Lily Lucy Lucy let Lily. Let Lucy Lily.
Pigeons have clearly been a problem for a long time. Gertrude Stein has been nonsensical for about as long,
javi2541997December 11, 2023 at 19:40#8604090 likes
Reply to javi2541997 If you liked that snippet of Stein, you'll be glad to know that there is lots more where that came from! Here is a link to a sample of her opera, "Four Saints in Three Acts". I attended a performance several years ago; I found it easier to sit through than some other much more famous operas I've seen/heard. Stein was a serious case, but don't take the opera too seriously, or it won't be enjoyable.
The score for Stein's opera is by Virgil Thompson, one of my favorite composers. He uses folk melodies to great effect in his works. He was, by the way, one of America's great gay composers (Stein was also gay). Here's his score for the 1936 depression era documentary for the ed States Resettlement Administration, "The Plow That Broke the Plains".
Not just any plow could be used to bring the American plains under cultivation. It had to be a sharp edged steel plow that could cut and turn the extra thick turf of previously uncultivated grassland. But the documentary is not all about plow design. It also about how the plains were wrecked by bad agricultural practices and greed.
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover Great book! I hadn't connected the Thompson piece with the dust bowl, so thanks for pointing it out. A lot of farmers planted wind breaks around their homesteads in the later 30s; many of them are still there but also aging out, falling down, or gone altogether.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 12, 2023 at 12:23#8606310 likes
A lot of farmers planted wind breaks around their homesteads in the later 30s; many of them are still there but also aging out, falling down, or gone altogether.
The new Americans (Europeans who overran everything) now know that the "rain follows the plow" theory is false, and that this part of North America is susceptible to significant drought. So there are many techniques in place to mitigate the effects. These include a return to native grasses which are hardy to the conditions, cover-cropping, and no-till planting. Hopefully we'll avoid a return to that combination of greed and bad agriculture, known in Canada as The Dirty Thirties.
javi2541997December 12, 2023 at 13:34#8606450 likes
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover The east/west boundary marking adequate rain for agriculture to its east has been moving eastward across the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas for decades. The line is now next door to Minnesota. Climate change probably has something to do with this, but agriculture itself is a major contributing factor.
As for Europeans overrunning everything... the NE Asians beat us to it by about 20,000 years, give or take a couple of millennia. Why didn't they subject the plains to the plow? Per Jerod Diamond (Guns, Germs, & Steel) they didn't have any draft animals--no horses, no oxen. Buffalo are not tractable, so they were not candidates for domestication. Without animal power, they couldn't develop extractive technology the way the people did in Europe and Asia. If they could have, they would have.
None the less, the First People here did well and were easy on the land.
So, if we need somebody to blame, we should blame the horses and the ox. If they hadn't been willing to cart us around, Eurasians would have lived easy on the land too. We were very short-sighted when we began to cooperate with horses and oxen. Little did we know what road to hell they would drag us down!
Reply to javi2541997 Right. We don't believe in European Exceptionalism -- that is, Europeans behave exceptionally badly. We are all smart apes, and are all inclined towards acquisition and domination. Some people have been more effective than others because some people were luckier in their choice of homeland.
And where are we all from, anyway? Well, Africa first. Skip over a few years, and some of the people living in Central Asia decided to Go West. Others decided to Go East. They became the dominant populations in Europe and Asia. Who is going to ultimately come out on top (China or Euro-America) has yet to be decided. If, of course, anybody comes out on top.
It may be that everybody will end up on top of the junk heap, as global warming reduces the planet to a swamp.
Meanwhile, it's a beautiful sunny day in the upper midwest, appropriately chilly.
Who has not been overrun at least once in its existence?
I wonder what long-term affects, if any, the late-Roman barbarians invasions (Visigoth, Goth, Burgundian, Vandal, Suevian, etc.) had on Spain. Who were the Iberian natives before the Phoenicians, Greeks, and Romans arrived? Were the Islamic invaders Berbers or Arabs?
I've been reading Peter Heather's history of the Roman Empire's decline in the west. At this point the Romans have lost control of (and tax revenue from) North Africa (thanks to the fucking Vandals) and most of Spain. Britain has dropped out of the Empire.
The next chapter is on Atilla the Hun, whose base of operation had moved west from the Steppes of Asia to what is now Hungary.
An American political description of a conservative is to say "He's somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun."
The Huns had at times been allies of the Romans, but that was when Rome was still fairly powerful. Now, 450 a.d., with the Western Empire falling apart, the Huns have big plans for more major acquisitions.
The Huns are at least partly responsible for the Vandal, Visigoth, et al invasions, pushing into various Barbarian territories and driving the natives out.
javi2541997December 12, 2023 at 21:14#8608380 likes
I wonder what long-term affects, if any, the late-Roman barbarians invasions (Visigoth, Goth, Burgundian, Vandal, Suevian, etc.) had on Spain
Well, we still have laws and customs which come from barbarian invasions. For example: the way we manage goods and debts, of the marriage, and the provinces of Castile. It is important to notice that the Visigoth and Goth had a big impact on the crown of Castilla and León, but they didn't have any presence on the Mediterranean boundaries where their people kept ruling by Roman law and customs.
Who were the Iberian natives before the Phoenicians, Greeks, and Romans arrived? Were the Islamic invaders Berbers or Arabs?
We had our own native folks! They were called Iberians, but other authors called them celtiberians. They disappeared due to the overrunning of the Roman and Greek empires, and we don't know what language they spoke or which customs they had yet. The brief information about the native people of Iberia comes from Roman historians. It is even difficult to examine what they looked like. Nevertheless, we can have a basic idea thanks to the Lady of Elche. An iberian person seemed to look like this: Lady of Elche: The mysterious statue brought to life.
The 'pre' history of Europe is shrouded in the mists of time, and the topic of where they came from, who came first, who brought what, and what language did they speak take on a very disputatious quality. One author says, "The Celts brought agriculture." Another author declares, "No, that's wrong..."
The Emperor Claudius (ruled from 41 to 54 a.d.) studied the Etruscans, who had been crushed and/or assimilated by the Romans 300+ years earlier.
Hope you are having a good day. Sun going down here, now.
Reply to frank All great. Whose forehead could I crack an egg on? I thought the subway station manager was telling the big-breasted woman (identified as "the customer with the juicy melons") to step back from the yellow line. Nah; some guy carrying two possibly juicy cantaloupes.
Oh; I see. The same videos don't come up after the linked one plays.
Hope you are having a good day. Sun going down here, now.
I am not having a good time recently, but you know, some periods are better than others. I like December, but I dislike Christmas; it makes me feel more stressed than regular months.
Cooking tip. Next time you have turkey hearts for breakfast, make sure to cut out and discard the aortas before cooking, because they're chewy and horrible.
Reply to Jamal We grew up poor, devastated by the 10 foot bridge that shut down our already struggling ferry business, deriving our only joy from the chewing gum PawPaw made us from turkey aortas and chicken superior venous cava.
Reply to Jamal So that's a honeybee. I just have a bunch of yellow jackets and hornets. Bee keeping is pretty common where I live and I've seen the supplies for sale but never got into it. I'm good in short spurts of interest where I read up on things, buy a bunch of stuff related to the interest, and then I sort of move on. That doesn't work with living creatures or plants or gardens where you have to have a sustained interest. Living things tend to die when neglected.
My wife has already told me that she will not deal with the bees once I stop tending to them, so I can't start that hobby until I have someone who is ready to step up when I get diverted.
If you want to move to podunk Georgia and serve as my beekeeper and manservent, I will consider your resume. I have a pair of glasses I tried to send to you but they keep coming back so I can give those to you when you show up at my door. The postmaster marked under your name on the package "Vagabond - Undeliverable."
I like December, but I dislike Christmas; it makes me feel more stressed than regular months.
Lots of people share your feelings -- positive about December, stressed out by Christmas. For many people, the stress comes from the difference between their warm, fuzzy, twinkling light cinnamon-scented childhood memories of Christmas, and the cool, scratchy, naked light bulb dangling from the ceiling debt-scented adult experience of Xmas.
Christmas is supposed to be an intensely happy time, so get with the program, damn it. It's our civic duty to be happy at this time of year, whether we like it or not! Thank heavens it only happens once a year.
While Christmas Stress Disorder can last a lifetime, some people make an effort to distance themselves from Christmas, cutting out certain practices like intense shopping, excessive gift giving, holiday entertaining, partying, and so on.
So feel free to dial down the volume of Christmas expectations to suit yourself.
Reply to BC It's funny because I'm Jewish and Christmas is my favorite time of the year. I get a big tree and listen to Christmas music for weeks.
My theory is that I like it because I have no stress with it. If I don't see my family, if I eat a PB&J, or I get no presents, I don't really care. I have no fond childhood Christmas memories, no expectations of togetherness, and no sacred traditions. It's a lot like Memorial Day for me. It's a day I don't have to work, I can eat certain foods, maybe I can watch a parade, or whatever.
It would be like if you decided to celebrate Hannukah and you went out and bought a menorah, fried some latkes, and put on some music. It'd be fun, but you wouldn't care if you forgot to do it one year.
The key is to take the Christ out of Christmas and make it just another day with lights and food.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 13, 2023 at 21:55#8611900 likes
The key is to take the Christ out of Christmas and make it just another day with lights and food.
Christ isn't the problem, as it happens.
As children we were/are revved up and become overly excited about Christmas. As we grow up, we try to recapture that state--as we remember it. What we remember isn't the same experience we actually had, and we drive ourselves a bit crazy trying to recapture an elusive, and quite possibly false memory.
Christmas, as it has been done by American Christians, is centered around children. Nothing wrong with that. But as the children grow up, they wish they could be the child around which they were the center.
Mentally healthy, mature, adults (especially if they do not have children) avoid trying to relive their childhood memories.
Mentally healthy, mature, adults (especially if they do not have children) avoid trying to relive their childhood memories.
Thank you for this. It validates my parenting style where I avoided providing my kids with memories they wanted to relive so as to not burden them with later sentimentality.
Reply to Hanover I thought what I had written might be misunderstood, and so it was. What I should have said was, "People who have children can relive their own childhood experiences through their children." Maybe, in depriving your kiddies of warm fuzzy sentimental memories, that is what you are doing, A psychologist and a social worker will come by to interview you all.
Per Schopenhauer, this is all yet another way to suffer for everyone concerned. Parents exhaust themselves generating a replica of their childhood memories; their children aren't impressed. They don't get it. Parents try harder. Children resist more. It's a nightmare.
50 years on, parents in their dotage are bitter and resentful that their children don't bring them plates of holiday cookies they actually made themselves. On the other hand, the parents don't appreciate the holiday greetings with Santa emojis they texted to their parents. So it wasn't a $5 Hallmark card. Big deal. The aging parents' adult children are busy people. When they do visit the old folks, it's a festival of passive aggression.
Reply to BC I found that my parenting method overcompensated for what I was deprived, but it was then tempered by my innate cheapness. That resulted in my taking my kids to every cheesy roadside attraction, countless hours playing mini golf, camping trips, and all sorts of activities through the county rec department, nothing of which cost a whole lot of money. When I was a kid I was just generally left to wandering the neighborhood like a stray dog and eating sandwiches and hotdogs when I found my way home, so I felt the need to provide more for my kids.
In seeing them now, I see two of the most frugal human beings known, with my oldest having survived off a 5 pound ham for a week or so. He carried bits of the pig in his pocket and would eat chunks like a confederate soldier when he grew weary.
I think this is all a much larger battle with capitalism and consumerism I have waged. I don't take the approach that it should be destroyed or reformed, but I take the approach that if you don't like it, don't engage in it. It's really freeing when you learn that most forms of luxury are really just someone else's fabricated definition of sophistication. Of course, I say that because I'm inherently cheap and that argument supports it.
Reply to Hanover
I put twinkly string lights all over my house. That's cheap luxury. You can get string lights where each light looks like a tiny manta ray.
When I was a kid I was just generally left to wandering the neighborhood like a stray dog
Well, when I was a kid it was normal for children to go outside, totally unsupervised, and do whatever. Did our parents approve of us playing in the storm sewer? We didn't ask. The creek we swam in was far from pristine, it being the watering hole for numerous cattle. We mostly survived all sorts of hazards. One or two here and there didn't, but apparently everyone thought the risks were reasonable.
Well, when I was a kid it was normal for children to go outside, totally unsupervised, and do whatever. Did our parents approve of us playing in the storm sewer? We didn't ask.
Exactly. On holidays when I was around 11 my mum gave me a sandwich to take away and said, 'See you at dinner.' I left the house at 8am, on my bike, and came back at 6. We got into drains, rubbish dumps, abandoned houses, building sites, up trees, you name it. Somehow we survived: falls, cuts, traffic, stray dogs, and Catholics...
As children we were/are revved up and become overly excited about Christmas.
I disliked Christmas even as a small child. It was creepy and I have had a lifelong aversion to compulsory celebrations. I hated the songs, the movies, the food, the cheesy plastic decorations, the strange men in red suits, the phony bonhomie and the piss-poor presents (for the most part) and the closed shops and businesses and the general shrillness of the period.
I disliked Christmas even as a small child. It was creepy and I have had a lifelong aversion to compulsory holidays. I hated the songs, the movies, the food, the cheesy plastic decorations, the strange men in red suits, the phony bonhomie and the piss-poor presents (for the most part) and the closed shops and businesses and the general shrillness of the period.
Did our parents approve of us playing in the storm sewer? We didn't ask.
My friends and I used to explore the storm sewer system that ran underneath a park and a catholic school next door. Our parents certainly did not know about this.
I disliked Christmas even as a small child. It was creepy and I have had a lifelong aversion to compulsory celebrations. I hated the songs, the movies, the food, the cheesy plastic decorations, the strange men in red suits, the phony bonhomie and the piss-poor presents (for the most part) and the closed shops and businesses and the general shrillness of the period.
While I agree the kitsch and commercialization suck, I will mention that there is such a thing as good Christmas music, but you have to look to old school sacred choral music. This is a bit of an outlier, but is an incredible piece of music by any standard:
My friends and I used to explore the storm sewer system that ran underneath a park and a catholic school next door. Our parents certainly did not know about this
You are one of the only witnesses then as to what the priests stored beneath the church. Do tell.
For us it was a quick walk in one direction up to the hills and woods, and in the other direction down to the beach. In the holidays we divided our time between those two, mostly.
But most interesting to us were the abandoned farm, where there were many unfamiliar things including some dead sheep; the abandoned boatyard, which was falling apart and rather dangerous; and the building site that sprang up in place of the boatyard, where we precariously walked from wall to wall across boardless floors, balancing on the joists above deadly drops.
Like the other boomers and Gen Xers here, we were out on our own for most of the day. We camped overnight in the hills, put cans of beans on the fire and waited for them to explode. Sometimes we drank alcohol stolen from fathers. In a concession to the parents, we did usually go back home to give notice of our overnight absence if we'd decided to camp.
One hears people say that kids don't have these experiences any more, and that's my impression too.
And if it's right, going on about it like we're doing here is merely the stating of facts and should not be mocked by youngsters.
And if it's right, going on about it like we're doing here is merely the stating of facts and should not be mocked my youngsters.
This was my favorite part, where you shifted from reminiscing about your youth to chastising the whippersnappers for their lack of appreciation of times gone by.
It's New Year's resolution time, and I haven't decided what challenge I'll take on this year. I'm thinking about resuming my tumbling training that I abandoned after kindergarten. I was a pretty good somersaulter back in my day, but it would give me a headache to do it too often, so I eventually sought other pleasures, like feminist expressive dance, which carried me through middle school. Something about the flow of my movements that demanded equality for my young sisters spoke to me, bringing tears to the disenfranchised and bringing me closer to a unity with the universe.
Those were heady times indeed. I've somewhat devolved since then, now incapable of concealing a chuckle when I think about genitalia.
I challenge you to not mention genitalia for a month.
Or to mention genitalia in every comment for a month.
You're saying I can't say genitalia for a month or that I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month or that I cannot say genitalia for a month and I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month?
Reply to Hanover What I find hard to get over is that I wrote "my youngsters" instead of "by youngsters". I know it's Friday, but even so, that's a serious slip-up.
You're saying I can't say genitalia for a month or that I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month or that I cannot say genitalia for a month and I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month?
You get to choose. Either:
1. You cannot mention genitalia for a month, or
2. You must mention genitalia in every comment for a month
You're saying I can't say genitalia for a month or that I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month or that I cannot say genitalia for a month and I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month?
The third stipulation would be superfluous as the first would automatically constitute the fulfillment of the third.
What I find hard to get over is that I wrote "my youngsters" instead of "by youngsters". I know it's Friday, but even so, that's a serious slip-up.
I liked how you accidently said it, as if you were talking down to the youngsters, calling them "my youngsters." Most great literature is created randomly, by monkeys striking keyboards. That's how I was created, in fact.
Reply to Hanover To me, what makes you compelling is that you’re real. Like the true crime stuff I’ve been getting addicted to lately, the crucial thing is that it’s all real, or ostensibly such.
1. You cannot mention genitalia for a month, or
2. You must mention genitalia in every comment for a month
Another bit of clarification. Does the term "comment" relate only to posts here on TPF or does it relate to everything I say and write anywhere? I pretty much already mention genitalia either explicitly or by gesture in my every spoken comment (except when I'm in a school zone), so that won't change much for me. The hard part, and by "hard" I mean a pulsating erection, will be not to make any reference to genitalia at all for a month.
The only time I've gone a month without speaking about genitalia was the curious month I spent with genitalia in my mouth, obstructing my ability to either speak or write about the very thing I wished to speak and write about.
When I finally dislodged and was able to resume my life unstuck from the genitalia, I actually did spend another week or so before I resumed discussion on the topic. The month in captivity had taken me away from family and friends and I wanted to catch up to see what I had missed.
Hope I don't have any more months like that one, right?
Noble DustDecember 15, 2023 at 16:54#8616910 likes
Not to be overly critical, but what is the difference between that song and just a long and melodious yawn?
Michael Praetorius, German composer, died 1621. Ere how a rose is blooming. Wonderful piece, but I agree the pace at which Warland led this performance is way too slow.
If you don't like Praetorius, you certainly won't like Pavel Tschesnokoff's Salvation Is Created, here performed by Voce8 in the St. Louis, Missouri basilica. The archdiocese clearly had more money when they built this pile than they have now. Tschesnokoff, died 1944, served as Imperial Russian and Soviet composer, choral conductor and teacher.
If you don't like Praetorius, you certainly won't like Pavel Tschesnokoff's Salvation Is Created, here performed by Voce8 in the St. Louis, Missouri basilica.
Oftentimes people limit their suggestions to those things people are interested in, but here you have advised me of what I would not be interested in and what you do not recommend I consider, and for that, I thank you.
Reply to Sir2u Not sure about that. I carefully avoided making that judgement, which is the point at which your audience understandably begins to groan. The kids I know are far in advance in some ways.
I'm chairing a national committee that is exploring a formal amendment to the what/that barrier. If passed, it will become permissible, yet not yet mandatory, to say things like "you're the person what I think is pretty," instead of the using the word that.
The vote is currently 51% to 49% to allow the change, with most votes aligning with typical geneti-ethnic-regional socio-econimic educational expectations, with genitalia assignment being the most predictable driver.
Anywho (a word also up for debate), lemme know your feedback so I can let the committee know how the Shoutbox thinks on this.
Reply to Tom Storm I'm glad you liked it. Let me spotlight another piece frequently performed in Christmas concerts--Ave Maria by Franz Biebl, a contemporary German composer, lived 1906 to 2001. Chanticleer recorded the piece and it took off. 670,000 copies of the sheet music have sold between 1992 and 2016. In classical music, that's a hit.
Ordinary Christmas carols get run into the ground when one hears them too often. In 2012, Minnesota Public Radio managed to run Ave Maria into the ground; seemed like they played it on the hour, every hour. Whence does Chanticleer hale?
From a chicken yard owned by a poor widow, the rooster Chanticleer lives in royal splendor with his seven wives, of whom his favorite is the fair Pertelote.
Not sure about that. I carefully avoided making that judgement, which is the point at which your audience understandably begins to groan. The kids I know are far in advance in some ways.
In what ways? Most kids I know nowadays cannot function properly with internet connection.
I spent more than 20 years teaching high schoolers, and they are no where near as imaginative, questioning, nor animated to learn as before. I lost count of how many times in the past couple of years I was told "we don't need to know any of this stuff, if we need it one day we can google it"
Most of them prefer to imitate instead of create, criticize instead of critique and so many of them consider themselves to be so superior to older folks.
I am not saying all of them, that would be unfair. But the rest are mostly missing empathy to their surrounds or just don't care. And those that care so that they can have fun doing it are just as bad.
Reply to Sir2u There have been several items in the news about loneliness. some studies have shown how using media and devices makes people feel more isolated. It isn't all that obscure a phenomena; if one is attending to a screen and its content, one isn't attending to the people nearby. Interacting with other people usually helps us feel less alone, more connected, which is to say, helps us feel better.
"People who don't know anything" will be much more easily fooled by what they find online. Children are not born with bullshit detectors; it takes wide reading, thinking, and some education to sharpen up one's BS detection skill.
ON THE OTHER HAND... WE older people should not expect younger people to know what or as much as we do (just as a general principle). Back in the 70s, we did a quick and dirty poll of students coming into the college library about the Holocaust. Quite a few students knew very little about it, or hadn't heard about it. Well, sure. These were mostly 18-20 years old. The Holocaust was not a freshman course then, and if they weren't born news junkies, they probably would not have heard much about it (this was at a Catholic college).
We'll have to wait a while to see how much learning and intellectual discrimination they develop in the future.
Reply to Sir2u I recognize the irony, but Google says: https://www.deseret.com/2016/11/23/20600988/how-digital-media-has-changed-creativity
The article agrees in part and disagrees in part with laying blame entirely at the feet of the internet for children's reduced creativity. It lays blame as well on the school model that emphasis standardized testing. I see this problem at work with young employees as well. The answer not being on the page is a difficult reality for some. They think someone already has the solution somewhere to be found rather than coming up with it themselves.
The internet is a great resource for research, but research is about learning, not about locating someone's else's learning and trying to mimic it. If you don't know why you're doing something you'll inevitably miss a step. It's like I tell employees when given a task, I can't list out all the duties, they're got to understand the purpose of the task.
My analogy (which is a dying animal of a reasoning skill - abstract comparison) is to compare tasks to a request of "throwing a party." I can't list everything that needs doing. I must assume you know we're going to need cups, chairs, invitations, etc., and if I overlook telling you each item, you're still responsible if it's missed, regardless of the fact that the email didn't itemize it, and regardless of what Google says parties consist of. You've got to stop and imagine what happens at parties and then do that. It's a shift from the way they've been taught.
I think the better employees are those who were forced by life circumstances to have figured things out without oversight and were often likely not the greatest students.
javi2541997December 17, 2023 at 19:24#8622060 likes
I thought the thread 'A case for moral anti-realism' reached more than one thousand replies because it was educational, sensitive, and informative. Yet, when I dove into the deep pool of the thread, I discovered that folks and familiar mates were having a heated discussion.
What did I learn from this? You don't have to judge a book by its cover. What appears to be a friendly place to discuss can be a dangerous place to end up lost in endless exchanges.
Time for tea and rest. Shall we stick the TV on? BBC documentaries are dead good.
Reply to Sir2uReply to Hanover I have no doubt that children's extensive screen time has significant negative consequences. However, young children are not buying phones, tablets, or computers. Let's back up one layer and ask, "Why have parents been placing these screens in the hands of their children for the last 20 years?"
Before there were hand held screens there were much larger screens in every home, before which children (and adults) were/are often parked for long periods of time. Television has been "a vast wasteland" (per FCC chairman Newton Minor who just died this year at 97) for a long time. Most parents didn't see anything wrong with the many hours of crap they and their children were consuming. (OK, so granted, not every program that was ever on was terrible; there were some pretty good programs on. If not all of them were 'pretty good', quite a few of the so-so programs were not perfectly awful. But good or bad, a lot of time was spent passively absorbing the commercial messages and banal programs.
As Marshall McLuhan declared, "The medium is the message". Backing up one more layer, there is a reason why "media" (television first, later the small screen and its various apps) became so important. Post WWII society was different than pre-WWII society. How different is mostly visible in hindsight; the society we live in now is our normal.
Industrial societies became more "mass society" and technology shifted the citizen's role more towards passive consumption of goods and services, and more away from active production and participation. Television, other mass media, and the internet uniquely serve this shift.
So, to make a long story short, crushing every small screen won't solve the problem by itself.
L'éléphantDecember 17, 2023 at 22:43#8622400 likes
I thought the thread 'A case for moral anti-realism' reached more than one thousand replies because it was educational, sensitive, and informative. Yet, when I dove into the deep pool of the thread, I discovered that folks and familiar mates were having a heated discussion.
You are forgetting the shoutbox, which has, to date, 1,716 pages already.
I'm very surprised at how liberal and permissive Florida Republicans are. Even a bit kinky.
According to Axios, the GOP Chair, Christian Ziegler, is in hot water for allegedly raping the woman with whom he and his wife, Bridget Ziegler, had apparently been in a menage a trois. Bridget Z. is a co-founder of the conservative group [I]swinging?[/i] Moms For Liberty.
State of play: A document on the motion to censure that Lee County GOP Chair Michael Thompson posted on X states that Ziegler "has engaged in conduct that renders him unfit for the office."
Well, the rape allegation relieves the Florida GOP from having to pass judgement on their party boss being involved in an unusually sophisticated sort of sex thing, let alone the problem of Moms For Liberty swinging both ways. Then again, could it be that's the kind of liberty Florida Moms are after?
Or maybe this is all de rigueur among Florida Republicans. Imagine what Florida Republican state conventions must be like--enough to make a gay bathhouse look tame.
ON THE OTHER HAND... WE older people should not expect younger people to know what or as much as we do (just as a general principle).
I don't think it is so much of a "how much they know or don't know" kind of problem. I think it is more of "I really don't want to know this because if I ever need it there are youtube videos that explain it" kind of problem.
So many kids nowadays seem to want to run away from learn or even using their minds. Problem solving is the most needed ability in the world right now and kids think that they can find all the answers on the internet. When you explain to them that they are not problems if the answers can be found with google, they look at you as if you have two heads.
I have read dozens of these article, some good some just plain stupid. This one is not bad.
I know that the blame cannot be laid 100% at googles door and I even use it a lot. But the way the kids use it as an answer to all is not going to help mankind in the near nor distant future.
A lot of people blame schools for the students lack of creativity and yes the system does not really advance the idea that creativity is a good thing. Way to many exercise in most subjects are just copying and [s]remembering[/s] memorizing other peoples knowledge. Even things like science fair projects are just repeats of something someone somewhere did already.
But just like the rest of education, one of the major participants is supposed to be the parent. "That's why I bought you the computer, tablet, cellphone, so that you don't have to be dependent on me to help you", is what I heard one parent tell his kid. Too many parents nowadays think that the schools are 100% in charge of teaching their kids everything they will need in their lives.
I even had a parent call me out for not teaching their kid how to be creative. I was try to teach kids how to create sprites so that they could program them to do things. I had shown them several examples and all the kid did was to make an exact copy of one of them. When he did not get the points daddy came and asked me when I had taught his kid to make original artwork and he would not understand that originality comes from the persons brain and cannot be taught. The kid finally presented a copy of a youtube example his dad had found for him.
One of the biggest problems that the internet has caused is the drive for perfection. Perfect body, perfect house perfect food on the table. The flip side is the constant mocking of the imperfect, the non conformist. People that do stupid things on purpose are worshiped as influencers and have lots of followers, those that do the same thing by accident or ignorance are torn to shreds by those same influencers.
So nowadays the kids don't want to do things wrong, they prefer to do nothing instead of risking being mocked. I know this happened to a certain extent before, you did something stupid in class and everyone laughed at you for a couple of days or until someone else did something to take away the heat. But today, that bit of stupidity can end up being viewed world wide.
I asked because of my interest in what you elude to. I know kids have a lot more knowledge of sex than we ever did at their age. I know that most are more advanced with the use of technology than many older folks, especially those that they consider stupid because they refuse to learn to use a cellphone so that they can talk face to face with other people.
But give most kids now a ball of string with knots in it and they will go to the store and buy a new one because they will not be able to find an explanation of how to fix it on youtube.
I'm very surprised at how liberal and permissive Florida Republicans are. Even a bit kinky.
I'm surprised at your sheer and utter ignorance, an ignorance rivaled only by that of the accused.
Obviously an absolute nobody who has nothing to lose and everything to gain by levying a serious allegation against an established celebrity who perhaps doesn't bend to their intended will cannot control themself but to do so instantly when such opportunity arises. Shame on the accused, for he/they should have known better, and perhaps should suffer for being so careless and asinine. It's blackmail, regardless of any alleged sexual acts willful or otherwise. Naturally my argument there was no non-willful acts performed, but a lie crafted with the skill of a handicapped sloth meant to bring oneself what they never could on their own: fame, national attention, and that oh so desired thing we call, money.
To prison with the lying wench and all her assets and those of her warped offspring confiscated. A life of servitude is too good for those who cheat when they have everything but what the next person has.
To prison with the lying wench and all her assets and those of her warped offspring confiscated. A life of servitude is too good for those who cheat when they have everything but what the next person has.
Blast lying wenches, thieves, knaves, and scoundrels all!
No, but a copy has just now been acquired for $5, which is not enough to get a decent coffee these days.
I clearly need to learn more about stupid people. See, I never meet truly stupid people in real life -- I only meet tastefully dressed, polite, well informed, thoughtful, prudent, happy people who are all sort of like philosopher kings in disguise. They get tiresome after a couple of hours.
javi2541997December 18, 2023 at 06:10#8623120 likes
Impressively informal English. However, in the UK we would usually say "stick the telly on".
I am subscribed to a British girl on her channel, and she uploads short videos teaching slang or different accents in the UK. She says she is a Brummie. It is fantastic because she teaches English by commenting on episodes of Peaky Blinders.
I wish I had teachers in school like her back in the day...
Another vocabulary I learned thanks to her: the beep beep alarm. She says the past tense is: 'smoke alarm went off.'
?And she states a difference: if we are at home, it is called a 'smoke alarm'. But if we are in an office it is said 'fire alarm'.
I like these trivial things and I don't bother to spend hours watching her videos.
javi2541997December 18, 2023 at 06:11#8623130 likes
Another vocabulary I learned thanks to her: the beep beep alarm. She says the past tense is: 'smoke alarm went off.'
?And she states a difference: if we are at home, it is called a 'smoke alarm'. But if we are in an office it is said 'fire alarm'.
"The smoke alarm went off" seems pretty standard to me. Yeah, I don't know why we don't have "fire alarms", in stead of "smoke alarms" in our homes. Where there is smoke, there is fire. But we empty "fire extinguishers" not "smoke extinguishers". Of course, there are actually different kinds of alarms. "Smoke" alarms detect smoke, even if it is cold. "Fire" alarms (may) detect heat. I bought a carbon monoxide detecter, not a carbon monoxide alarm. (It probably didn't work anyway.)
It is not legitimate free speech to falsely yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. Yelling "STINK!" in a crowded theater is legitimate if a woman 6 rows in front and 10 seats to your left is wearing noxious, suffocating perfume. That's reason enough to set off a fatal stampede toward the doors.
javi2541997December 18, 2023 at 08:07#8623210 likes
Reply to BC In Spanish, we call it 'alarma de incendios,' which can be translated into English as 'fire alarm.' When we are in a crowded room with people, we would shout ¡Fuego! if a fire is out of control, just as you say 'Fire!' etc. (instead of smoke).
This is interesting and a subject of the shoutbox. What do you think can be detected by the alarm firstly? The heat of the fire or the smoke? The Brummie girl I see in my videos states that the difference is about the place we are referring to, basically (when the beep-beep goes off). It doesn't depend on what is detected in the first place...
I asked because of my interest in what you elude to. I know kids have a lot more knowledge of sex than we ever did at their age. I know that most are more advanced with the use of technology than many older folks, especially those that they consider stupid because they refuse to learn to use a cellphone so that they can talk face to face with other people.
But give most kids now a ball of string with knots in it and they will go to the store and buy a new one because they will not be able to find an explanation of how to fix it on youtube.
You didn't need to elaborate. I'm familiar with this sort of talk.
In my experience, youngsters these days have better social skills and confidence, are more eloquent, and have much better general knowledge, compared to me and my friends at the same age.
Yesterday I asked a table of Russians about it. The oldsters voiced opinions like yours, and the youngsters said that was a stupid stereotype. The special Russian dimension is that education is regarded as having deteriorated since the end of the USSR, which is partly true. Still, maybe YouTube can make up for that.
I even had a parent call me out for not teaching their kid how to be creative. I was try to teach kids how to create sprites so that they could program them to do things. I had shown them several examples and all the kid did was to make an exact copy of one of them. When he did not get the points daddy came and asked me when I had taught his kid to make original artwork and he would not understand that originality comes from the persons brain and cannot be taught. The kid finally presented a copy of a youtube example his dad had found for him.
I'm not siding with the parent who thinks you can magically teach his child to be creative, but I do think creativity can likely be taught, or at least fostered in a way that you would see improvement even among the most left brained of people. That is at least what the fine arts teachers say in their never ending effort to keep their jobs and not to be replaced by more STEM teachers.
What makes creativity difficult to teach is that it is hard to quantify in a way that can be graded. It's easy enough to say a school is in the top 10% in mathematics, but not so much with creativity, whatever that would mean.
My nephew, who was never a good student and struggled for various reasons, entered an art contest where he was asked to draw a still life of a fruit bowl. He spent all of five minutes scribbling on a page and coloring partially in the lines, and he placed highly in the contest above those who had had realistic, detailed pictures. They judged his artwork as being advanced and beyond requiring the elementary details a less sophisticated artist would still find important. Now he thinks he's a great artist.
Smoke detectors are relatively inexpensive and fairly reliable. They are alarms which normally do not do anything about the smoke, aside from making noise. In some cases that's OK. If bread is burning in the toaster, one doesn't want all hell to break loose. On the other hand, if the living room couch is on fire, something needs to happen PDQ (pretty damn quick), or the house will go up in flames.
Ceiling mounted sprinkler systems that put fires out are activated by the heat of the fire -- a wax plug melts and allows water to spray out on the fire. Unfortunately, older buildings usually don't have sprinkler systems.
I don't know if there are fire detecting alarms for home use that detect fire by sensing excessive heat.
Smoke alarms have a tiny amount of radioactive Americium 241 in them. The ionizing radiation helps detect smoke particles.
I have now used up everything I know about fire and smoke.
Ceiling mounted sprinkler systems that put fires out are activated by the heat of the fire -- a wax plug melts and allows water to spray out on the fire. Unfortunately, older buildings usually don't have sprinkler systems.
They don't have a wax plug. They have fluid in a glass container that breaks open when the liquid expands from getting too hot. The water in the pipes is usually rusty from lack of use and it destroys everything the fire doesn't.
They lock the handle on the spigot so that you can't turn the water off because people might turn the water off and never turn it back on and then a fire would break out and everyone would die a crispy death, like s'mores. They do make a device you can put over the activated sprinkler if it goes off accidently, like if you hang your clothes on it and break the glass, but most people don't have that in their bat belt so they just have to yell "fuck fuck fuck fuck" as they run around the house looking for plastic wrap or something. I've never done that, but that's probably how I'd respond. Then in like 30 years, we'd all laugh about that time I hung up my shirt and destroyed the whole house.
In my experience, youngsters these days have better social skills and confidence, are more eloquent, and have much better general knowledge, compared to me and my friends at the same age.
My impression of the current crop of pre-school children is that they are smarter than children used to be. but these sorts of impressions are not worth much. 70 years ago I wasn't an adult observing pre-schoolers or adolescents.
One has to compare like with like. The social environment of children varies a lot from place to place and time to time. In 1923, middle class urban youth from upward-mobile homes were, like as not, in possession of self-confidence, good social skills, and general knowledge. At the same time, poor farm children attending abbreviated school, were probably not as self-confident, lacked social skills, and had less general knowledge. The children of upward mobile, successful farmers in 1923 completed high school (which at the time was above average) and had pretty good social skills and self-confidence.
From what I see in 2023, the average middle class urban youth from upward-mobile homes are, as expected, socially sophisticated, self-confident, and have good general knowledge. The average poor kid from from barely functional families are not doing all that well.
Reply to Hanover OK, so I got the wax plug wrong, but I did know about the radioactive material in smoke detectors. I grew up in a fire-hazard house without so much as a bucket of water to put a fire out, so I'm lucky to even be here and not knowing shit from shinola about sprinkler systems.
Your story reveals the hidden hazards of clothing -- hanging it up, etc.
In my experience, youngsters these days have better social skills and confidence, are more eloquent, and have much better general knowledge, compared to me and my friends at the same age.
You might hang out with idiots, so your impression of your peers being stupider than Gen Zs is understandable. I mean look at who you interact with in the Shoutbox.
It is important that each generation not think the next generation be worth a damn. That is how it always has been and we have so far been successful. If we are to suddenly have confidence in our replacements, we will cease being how we are expected to be and we will be a further disappointment to our fathers who declared us not worth a damn.
In my experience, youngsters these days have better social skills and confidence, are more eloquent, and have much better general knowledge, compared to me and my friends at the same age.
My impression of the current crop of pre-school children is that they are smarter than children used to be. but these sorts of impressions are not worth much. 70 years ago I wasn't an adult observing pre-schoolers or adolescents.
People have different levels of several different type of intelligence, or so they say. Being creative can mean anything from painting pictures to finding a novel way to get into a girls underwear.
I struggled in school, mostly from boredom, but from dyslexia which was unheard of at the time. You where either stupid or just looking for trouble back them. But I was always looking for things to do that no one in the school yard had reported doing. And most of the kids were the same, inventing new games, ways to bother parents and teachers without getting into trouble, looking for places to explore.
I went to 13 different school from first grade to eleventh, in three countries, and most of the kids were the same. Very few had social connectivity problems and nearly everywhere the kids kids had an active social life.
What I see now is kids with phones, everywhere they go.
Lots of them have trouble talking to people they do not see too often or have just met and they often ask close to the beginning of the meeting whether you have any social media accounts. They sometimes seem at a loss for things to say, as if they are trying to figure out the words for the emojis they normally use when chatting. And I have also noticed that a lot of kids nowadays have a very limited range of topics that they want to talk about.
Little kids are fantastic at picking up on what is happening and they love copying what grown ups are doing. It is not surprising then that kids seem much smarter than we were. We see little kids using tablets and cellphones like they were born with them and think WOW kids today are so smart. What would we have done if we had this technology in the sixties? The same things they do probably.
Seriously though, I do not envy these kids. They will never know the fun of playing football with old paint cans, that we set on fire and kicked the around the street. They will never feel the pride of being able to sit in the gangs tree house built from old pieces of wood, metal roofing and furniture that we hauled thirty feet up the tree.
Almost ten years ago when windows 10 came out I had a seventh grade come and ask me why my computer still had windows 7 on it. He blabbed on for a few minutes telling me all the cool things his windows 10 computer could do, I showed him that I could all of the same things he had mentioned then added a couple of not too well known tricks that maybe he could check out on his machine.
The next day a girl in his class told another teacher that the boys had been planning to try and embarrass some of the teachers that did not have too much technical knowledge. And me being the oldest teacher there they had started with me, think that I would have little know how with computers. One of the boys later apologized after I took a few minutes to explain that I had been giving computer classes before windows even existed. I still have the present they gave me when they graduated.
Apart from the insightful contents, the presentation, without notes, and with remarkable clarity and fluency is an absolute delight. I defy you to listen to it or to read a transcript and not learn something.
Deleted userDecember 19, 2023 at 15:58#8626780 likes
Today I learned that Amerigo Vespucci's trip to America as a leader instead of tripulant was under the king of Portugal, instead of Spain. I should have known, as I speak both languages.
javi2541997December 19, 2023 at 16:51#8627040 likes
Today I learned that Amerigo Vespucci's trip to America as a leader instead of tripulant was under the king of Portugal, instead of Spain.
Will people stop accusing us of genocide from now on?
Hmm...
Deleted userDecember 19, 2023 at 17:47#8627350 likes
Reply to javi2541997 I would not take accusations of genocide in the distant past negatively, those basically imply historical success. Mongolia has gigantic statues of Genghis Khan raised everywhere.
So my wife has never really known her dad. She was an only child to a single mother - mother never hid anything... My wife knew who he was, and essentially where he was, but he had no interest in her whatsoever. My wife had initiated some email exchanges a few years ago, but her dad basically said 'oh, weird. Well, i'm not going to tell my family about you so take care"
Turns out, this has been the case for at least two other of his children.
But my wife had no idea, until quite recently, that she had any siblings. Once she found out, she went on a bit of a quest to find them. She did. Two half-brothers. Turns out they lived in the same town she did in the UK for much of her childhood. Fuck.
Anyway, fast-forward a little and she plucked up the courage to send both separate FB messages.
She struggled with anxiety for about six weeks waiting for a response. It's been hard to watch.
But a few days ago she got a response from one of them - and it was positive. He wants to know her and is really sad he didn't know about her earlier.
So i'm just, a few times a day, breaking into happy weeping for my wife finding her brothers. Its been a really magical Christmas time :)
unenlightenedDecember 19, 2023 at 22:18#8629570 likes
Reply to AmadeusD Congratulations to you both on the new addition to the family. I hope it works out well for you all. And even if it doesn't work so well, there is a feeling of connection to the world that survives.
I asked Google why Americans don’t eat rabbit and it told me that “selling hunted game is not legal in the United States.” And I guess there aren’t many rabbit farms.
Noble DustDecember 20, 2023 at 19:59#8634060 likes
I'd like to try it at some point. I've had squirrel and venison here in the US, both of which were hunted by someone I knew. The squirrel tasted like dirty chicken.
The most adventurous meat I've tried was Oreja, or pigs ear, in taco form. Gelatinous and not edible, for me at least. That said I do enjoy a good Lengua taco from time to time.
I’ve never eaten an ear. I’d be hoping for crispy rather than gelatinous, so your oreja sounds unappealing. Tongue tacos—another thing I haven’t tried. Tongue is popular in salads here but I’ve always viewed it as boring.
And squirrel. Again, haven’t tried it. You say dirty chicken, but I’d’ve expected it to taste like chipmunk.
If you could sell game meat, there'd be no more game.
In fact, I'd be the first to mass trap all the rabbits, make a few bucks, and then tell everyone else to fuck off. I'm not running for office, so I don't care what you think. And when I take my earnings from my booty of rabbit meat and buy me a new toaster and enjoy me a melted cheese sandwich while you're crying about the lack of Peter Cottontails, I won't even notice.
But alas, the law keeps me from my plan, saving me from a booty full of rabbit meat.
My son ate a crow he killed once. The meat was purple. It makes me sick to think about actually. He'll better survive the zombie apocalypse that will never happen.
Good old Fred.
I just wanted to beat you guys to the Fred joke. That was the whole purpose of this story.
I asked Google why Americans don’t eat rabbit and it told me that “selling hunted game is not legal in the United States.” And I guess there aren’t many rabbit farms.
Good question. There are not many rabbit farms, true. But Americans used to eat rabbit and did so with enthusiasm. Hasenpfeffer, braised rabbit, is pretty good. In the film, Roger and Me, an unemployed Flint, MI auto worker was raising rabbits for meat. I remember that the audience seemed a bit shocked at the idea. Sentimentality? Domestic rabbits are too stupid to be cute.
People don't each duck and goose very often, either. I judge that to be a result of the meat's cost, plus it's all dark meat. Some people seem to strongly prefer less flavorful white meat. Raising geese is fairly expensive (they eat a lot) and so is the butchering cost, plus getting the pin feathers out is tedious.
The neighborhood store sells pigs ears (for people to make into silk purses) as dog chews.
Noble DustDecember 21, 2023 at 02:37#8635460 likes
People don't each duck and goose very often, either.
Duck is common in the Chinatowns of NYC and I assume in other Chinatowns across the US. I just had peking duck at my company holiday lunch yesterday, as it happens.
Raising geese is fairly expensive (they eat a lot) and so is the butchering cost, plus getting the pin feathers out is tedious.
If you ever eat goose filled with bread chunks, it was probably stolen from the park because that's all the kids will feed them even though the sign says thou shalt not.
Yep, gonna keep giving the same punch line to every joke now.
Reply to Noble Dust Of course you had duck. In real cities that have real Chinatowns, duck is de rigueur. Out here in the flyover hinterlands, the mass's diets are nightmares of frozen pizza, tuna helper, macaroni and velveeta, and other horrors. You want to see rabbit, duck, veal, and stinky cheese on the table? What are you, some sort of deviant Frenchified communist?
At 6:44, just heard there was a shooting in a Prague university targeting the Philosophy Department. 14 killed. No information at this time whether it was professing philosophers or incipient philosophers.
javi2541997December 22, 2023 at 05:24#8641140 likes
Not a single Christmas greetings card in the shoutbox? What a pity… well, here is mine. I found it on a weird web page called ‘Pinterest’ where folks post their collages there.
I am a friend of the Snowman. It seems to be a cool guy. His nose is a carrot, but who am I to criticize this?
Not a single Christmas greetings card in the shoutbox?
True, that. So here's a bloody Christmas card. By the way, the late Victorians sent cards we would consider wildly inappropriate. They also liked to read ghosts stories at Christmas time, an example of which is Dickens' Christmas Carol--but spookier, maybe.
Some Frenchmen flew over to Minnesota for deer hunting on my brother-in-laws farm. They bagged a deer and hastened to get it back to France before it spoiled. They packed the cavity with ice, sewed it up, and stuffed it -- antlers and all -- into the overhead compartment on the plane. Naturally people objected. Vegans, vegets, and PETA types were outraged and appalled. Two people were annoyed when blood dripped on them from above. Air France gave them free Bloody Mary cocktails in compensation.
By the way, the late Victorians sent cards we would consider wildly inappropriate. They also liked to read ghosts stories at Christmas time, an example of which is Dickens' Christmas Carol--but spookier, maybe.
The Victorian era seemed to be an interesting time for the United Kingdom, and you are right that it was more spooky than ever. By the way, 'A Christmas Carol' by Dickens is a masterpiece, and you just brought back good memories because I used to read it in English during my school days. It was a task for 'Christmas holidays.' I have always enjoyed reading this book. I wonder what my thoughts would be if I read it again as an adult...
Reply to javi2541997 Go ahead and read it again -- many adults read it as part of their Christmas rituals--maybe not every year, but every few years. Many theaters perform it at this time of year -- it's a reliable moneymaker.
Go ahead and read it again -- many adults read it as part of their Christmas rituals--
Interesting idea! I purposed myself to read 'The Brothers Karamazov' one time per year as a ritual. But I never thought of having a specific ritual for Christmas... and what would be a better ritual if literature was not included?
Not a single Christmas greetings card in the shoutbox? What a pity… well, here is mine. I found it on a weird web page called ‘Pinterest’ where folks post their collages there.
I am a friend of the Snowman. It seems to be a cool guy. His nose is a carrot, but who am I to criticize this?
First I discover you're disgusted by chocolate with nuts, and now it turns out you've never seen a snowman with a carrot for a nose.
But thank you for the cards. Merry Christmas to all.
javi2541997December 22, 2023 at 10:10#8641440 likes
In 2016, the year I moved to Spain, it snowed in Denia, which is a much rarer occurrence than it is in Madrid. The story going around was that the ajuntament had one very small snow-plough that had been locked up in a forgotten garage for decades. The story was illustrated online with this:
I wish it was true and not just bad photoshop.
It's above zero Celsius this week in Moscow. That's bad news of course, since it's been snowing constantly for more than a month and now it's melting and forming dirty puddles the size of the Caspian Sea. Bring back winter I say. Minus 10-15 C is ideal.
javi2541997December 22, 2023 at 11:21#8641610 likes
Once it snowed right before rush hour in Atlanta, and having no snow plows or other ways to treat the ice, people were stuck in their cars for 12 hours or more. Why they didn't just get out and walk home, I guess was the result of that odd ice stuff everywhere.
Anyway, we became a laughing stock, being told we really weren't an international city if we could be shut down over an ice storm. I think that resulted in our purchasing all sorts of snow and ice equipment that sits unused somewhere that everyone will try to figure out how to use next time the ice shows up.
Our other solution has been to close the schools and shut down all businesses at the hint of snow so as to avoid people being stuck again.
My solution is to ask for an escalation in global warming so that we don't have to live through these sorts of difficult times again. Please join me in my prayers.
Interesting idea! I purposed myself to read 'The Brothers Karamazov' one time per year as a ritual. But I never thought of having a specific ritual for Christmas... and what would be a better ritual if literature was not included?
Many families read " 'Twas the the Night Before Christmas" on Christmas on Christmas Eve, but my family actually does read The Brothers Karamazov next to the fireplace each Christmas Eve. Uncle Freddie reads it aloud facing the fire, bending and bobbing about, in a racing mumbling melodious chant that takes hours and hours, his voice rising and falling, each of us moving our lips silently to the words, bobbing and weaving as well.
Nothing gets you in the Christmas mood like a Christmas Eve daven.
javi2541997December 22, 2023 at 14:07#8641810 likes
Many families read " 'Twas the the Night Before Christmas" on Christmas on Christmas Eve, but my family actually does read The Brothers Karamazov next to the fireplace each Christmas Eve.
Hold up!
Can you confirm if your family reads 'The Brothers Karamazov' in Russian?
Because I read it in Russian, and maybe we have more in common than we ever thought!
Because I read it in Russian, and maybe we have more in common than we ever thought!
No, sorry, we read it in German and through a line of translaters (German to French to Spanish to German to English) we have it finally translated into English so that we can understand it. There has been some discussion regarding removing the unnecessary translations to French then to Spainish and just going straight to English, but the motion died in subcomittee by a vote of 8 to 9, with the most honorable Julio Rodriguez from the 8th District using his swing vote to block it.
The amount of procedure in my home is cumbersome, ruining pretty much every holiday. I wish it were different, but our home Constitution was written as it is, and we're stuck with it I'm afraid.
Same thing happened in the DMV a few years ago and we have plows at the ready. Rush hours a bitch like that. If the road isn't prepared with salt before rush hour for the snow you're fucked.
That happened to me once in the DMZ as well, making my ascent from South Korea to the less favorable North just that much more hazardous.
I'm spouting some award winning nonsense in the Shoutbox this holiday season, and I would like at least some recognition. Where is S when you need him? He used to laugh at all my jokes until he was offed for his particular brand of inappropriateness.
You can read Russian? The closest I come to reading Russian is I can pronounce what I see written down. Trouble is I don't always know what it means.
The same as you. When I went to college, one of my classmates was very interested in working in Russia or finding a job related to Russian culture. One day, he invited me to a Russian bar just to taste beers (I cannot remember the name exactly, but it was the average that you can find in a Russian market. Like Mahou or Cruz Campo) and learn basic Russian (because this bar was offering events for students) and the basic thing I remember is this: trying to read and remember the basic letters of Cyril. For example: "???????"... P (equals to R) o (equals to U) cc (equals to SS) ?? (to I) ? (to A) and that basic stuff.
This was five years ago and my classmate was able to elaborate phrases... I hope he is in Russia now pursuing his dreams!
I would expect to see more snowmen with carrot noses
In this part of the world, children still make snowmen (with adult help -- big balls of snow are heavy) with carrot noses. What they can't do, these days, is add "two eyes made out of coal" because nobody burns coal, these days. I suppose charcoal would work. When I was a child, back in the Pleistocene, we used actual coal.
It's about the same in Minneapolis, but no puddles--we have not received enough snow this year to melt into a puddle. Odd weather. We had an extremely dry summer, but during September and October we received 10 inches of rain. Then the drought resumed.
We are familiar with your current cold swamp. In 2009 we had heavy snow and cold weather in the fall, but it warmed up and rained on Christmas Eve. The streets were an unhealthy combo of ice covered with cold slop. It got cold again, as we knew it would, and then everything was icier than it had been before.
In this part of the world, children still make snowmen (with adult help -- big balls of snow are heavy) with carrot noses.
I think I have already accepted that a snowman can have a carrot nose. But it is disturbing that they wear a hat! What are they covering? The material they are made of?
javi2541997December 22, 2023 at 20:56#8642620 likes
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 23, 2023 at 11:42#8643600 likes
Reply to Mikie
In my experience the best eggnog is prepared in advance, and left to rot, (age? season? ferment? who knows?) in the fridge for at least a month. Usually I just buy the store version, get tired of it because it's so sickeningly sweet, and the rest sits in the fridge until I find it and drink it at Easter.
We have plenty of fresh eggs, so that's never a problem. It's the elusive nog that makes it a challenge. I sat shivering in the nog stand for hours and didn't see a thing, so we'll probably just have eggyolk shooters spiked with gin and dusted nutmeg again this year.
unenlightenedDecember 23, 2023 at 12:33#8643640 likes
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover If I remember my organic chemistry aright, proteins are comprised of amino acids that are chain molecules with an acid at one end and an amine base at the other end, and thus they like to form long strings called proteins that then fold mysteriously an' stuff. Alcohol is also a base but has no acid at the other end, so over time the alcohol will react with protein scraps to form Esters, which are the organic chemistry analogue of salts, in that the bonds are more ionic than covalent. And esters are the stuff that noses are built to detect, and are largely responsible for all the complex flavours that go beyond sweet, salt, sour, bitter, and umami. Plenty of protein in an egg, plenty of alcohol in eggnog, so plenty of slow complex reactions o develop flavour. But leave it too long and might end up tasting of ripe compost.
In my experience the best eggnog is prepared in advance, and left to rot
Never heard of that. I’ve made eggnog myself — it’s highly perishable. Unless you mean you prepare it with alcohol, but even then I wouldn’t want to let it sit longer than a day.
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 23, 2023 at 13:07#8643680 likes
But leave it too long and might end up tasting of ripe compost.
Many esters there? The evolution of our understanding of sensation, and the combining of taste and smell in what is called "flavour" is very philosophically interesting. Also, there's now a massive industry based around the science of flavour, along with the artificial creation and manufacture of flavours.
Fear Factor, Christmas episode: can you eat 100 year old eggnog?
Reply to Mikie
Yeah, prepare with alcohol and let it age. There's some science to it, as unenlightened explains
unenlightenedDecember 23, 2023 at 14:20#8643800 likes
It's a basic mouth taste, that Europe didn't know about but the orientals did. Is The word in English would be"savoury" . Monosodium glutamate is the artificial version. How we managed to go so long in ignorance of our own tastebuds must be down to some negative relative of 'social facilitation' - see that silly language thread, If there's no word for it, it doesn't exist. So now you have the word, a whole new world of taste should open up for you.????
In my experience the best eggnog is prepared in advance, and left to rot
I've heard that eggnog could be aged for a while, months or a year. I have not heard of mass die-offs from aged nog, but they might not have filled out the death certificates properly.
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON THE INTERNET! Here's a link to a discussion and recipe for aged egg nog.
I forgot about port. Not sure I've even had any this century. Cheers.
unenlightenedDecember 24, 2023 at 10:08#8646100 likes
I prefer ruby port. And not just because the barrels are bigger.
javi2541997December 24, 2023 at 11:08#8646150 likes
What happened to @Hailey and @guanyun? It has been a while since I interacted with them. I remember they posted interesting facts about China and Chinese reality.
I hope they are doing well, because Hailey once said 'We fear what we said online might have real life consequences.' Here...
I only wish that they have not been prosecuted or something...
For those whose New Year's resolution is to sample all versions of fortified wines, this is a helpful checklist:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortified_wine
Metaphysician UndercoverDecember 24, 2023 at 13:34#8646330 likes
Reply to Hanover
From past experience, Gallo has problems, but MD20 is a delight, and Night Train is a close second. But I'll wait for the professionals to sample and judge, it might be time to splurge and try something new.
There's something wrong with that word "splurge", it sounds like something you might do after drinking a bottle of that stuff.
Noble DustDecember 24, 2023 at 15:20#8646620 likes
But I'll wait for the professionals to sample and judge
As one such, my basic rec is to explore the misunderstood world of sherry. Not that cream stuff, but the real thing: Manzanilla, Fino, Amontillado, Palo Cortado (if you can find it), and Oloroso; all dry and in order from lightest to darkest. And if you’re not afraid of dessert wine, give PX a try.
Noble DustDecember 24, 2023 at 15:24#8646640 likes
After having said that, I realize dry sherry isn’t exactly the most festive aperitif or digestif, but for those without a sweet tooth (like me), it could be ideal. For something a little more festive, I like a good Vermouth di Torino.
I have just realized I have no alcohol in my apartment. Also, I have to work tomorrow. On the plus side, I am completely alone so there is no chance of Christmas being ruined by political arguments or some such, rather I can enjoy sitting at my desk alcohol free and working as I ponder the idiots around the world surrounded by their loved ones, eating rich food, drinking tasty beverages, exchanging gifts and experiencing the ineluctable Christmas spirit of such occasions that has been the inspiration of so much art, literature, and generally happy feels. So, how do you like them apples?.. Yes, indeedie.
I ate mussels for Christmas Eve and some fishy dishes.
Noble DustDecember 24, 2023 at 22:37#8647500 likes
Haddock, coleslaw and roast potatoes over at the Dust household for Christmas Eve. Tomorrow at the extended Dust clan gathering it’s an Italian (-American) feast. :chin:
Very much hoping everyone has a happy holidays and stops thinking for long enough to eat an irrational amount.
I'm a fairly abstemious person (I don't drink alcohol or eat sweets or desserts or drink soft drinks - sodas) this Christmas (in a couple of hours) I'm off to a good Chinese restaurant with immediate family to eat my own body weight in dumplings. I have no interest in 'proper' Christmas food (turkey, ham, etc) so finally I'll be eating something I actually enjoy this Christmas!
L'éléphantDecember 24, 2023 at 23:17#8647560 likes
I ate mussels for Christmas Eve and some fishy dishes.
How did that happen -- tradition or chance?
Oysters on Christmas Eve are a tradition in many families in this area, even here in the middle of the continent. When these traditions were formed, transportation was slower and one's oysters had to travel a long way. In barrels, I suppose, unshucked, on ice.
Not quite sure where the oysters I'm about to cook and eat came from. Hopefully they had the benefit of relatively clean ocean water, and weren't scraped off the bottom of New York City's harbor.
I went to a lunchtime party once on Christmas Eve and they were serving oysters. I didn't even know until today that it was a Christmas Eve tradition. At the time I just thought they liked oysters and it was sunny and quite warm at the time so oysters seemed appropriate.
This Christmas Eve we had some cheeses and a nice prosecco. Today, Christmas Day, I'm cooking a duck.
Reply to Hanover there seems to be a knack to shucking oyster -- a knack I lack. Stewed in milk. I don't take as long to cook oysters as people did / do. I'm not sure if cooking the oyster stew over hot water for an hour improves the flavor. They get a quick heating to curl the edges, then into the hot milk. Maybe 10 minutes later I add a little finely ground cracker crumbs which gives the stew some body.
I'm not afraid to eat them raw, and have every now and then. They have an interesting raw flavor. Oysters are a bit too expensive to experiment on. I'm pretty sure I would like scalloped oysters or fried--not with cheese. I've never tried frying them. (Are they like fried clams? I love those.)
I also had a bosc pear (the ones with the rough tan skin) with some very sharp Italian blue cheese--not gorgonzola--and caraway rye bread. The cheese people called it "mountain blue" whatever that means. Quite pungent and salty.
For the last 3 years, oysters have been about $20 a pound, shelled.
I've never tried frying them. (Are they like fried clams? I love those.)
Everything in the South is fried, so that's most common after raw. If you've not had an oyster Po Boy, you should try one next time you're at a Cajun place. I like fried oysters better than better than fried clams. They're thicker and you can taste the oyster. With fried clams, they can be almost all batter because they're so small.
Sigh. Another delectable entree, teasing the philosophers mind who is hungry for knowledge both comestible and intangible to no end. Yet no picture. Not even a simple gesture of good will or festivity or even conformity to the expected almost-mandatory tradition of posting one's edible procurements for us all to see. If not simply to dissolve all doubt that one's claims are facetious or of falsehood for purposes of novelty.
I've avoided spirits for a while now because I can't handle them, but I thought I'd make an exception for Christmas. I specifically asked my wife for Scottish whisky, but she thought it would be more interesting to get me Japanese. FML!
I assumed it to be in the realm of reasonable possibility.
Interestingly enough I have a chicken quesadilla of similar constitution I plan to indulge in shortly.
As a lone bachelor, much like yourself, my holiday dining plans are quite typical of any other evening. After all, unlike yourself, or so I presume, I hold myself to a sort of.. mission you could say, that is centered around that which is greater than myself and so budget accordingly. Sure, I could cook myself a fancy roast, invite friends over, but, for better or worse, the endeavors I engage in are of the dangerous sort and so I choose to spare those I appreciate from such a fate. To much avail, actually. :)
Reply to BC I am Homeric in some ways. I like pork chops and beer. And fat, well, the fact is that fat helps to make things delicious. But there's a limit. Fatty seepage, oil-soaked batter, and other lipidical outrages cross the line.
javi2541997December 25, 2023 at 08:13#8648070 likes
I don't know if it is a tradition at all, because most families take lamb for dinner here. This is not an obstacle to being a bit different and eating fishy dishes. The dinner for Christmas Eve this year was usual: jamón serrano, ensaladilla rusa, Manchego and the mussels. At least I remember that my family always cooked these dishes. The dinner for New Year's Eve is cod fish, for example. Yes, this is a tradition. It is weird to eat meat that night (at least in my home).
We don't celebrate the 25th. I think I already posted this the last year (or the before). Nonetheless, some families or friends go to a bar to have some beers. The 'special' moment is the night of 24th.
Possibly from the chicken, which is a bit of a misnomer as what you get underneath the sauce is really just a kind of edible rubber that looks like hotdog.
In fairness, this does hit the protein/fat combo cravings that are the main priority for any bona fide bogman's meal. In other words, don't be giving me no salads, bruv. I'd rather slum it in processed fast food wonderland.
universenessDecember 25, 2023 at 08:49#8648200 likes
What I find least credible is that a baby Korean girl was named Anne and that her nieces and nephews would one day call her Auntie and that she would go on to become a purveyor of chicken pretzels.
I cannot put my finger on it, but something about it feels contrived.
All I did was I poured over boiling water like the Chinese do, then left it out to dry for an hour, then seasoned it inside and out, then cooked for 90 minutes and let it rest for 25 minutes while I made the gravy which was too fatty cos of all the fat.
I neither believe in, nor really understand, marinades, stuffings, etc. The best roasts I've had have been unsullied.
This one was 10/10.
Noble DustDecember 25, 2023 at 14:19#8648490 likes
I had to look up merienda, but sure. We eat it for Christmas breakfast, topped with lingonberry preserves (not cranberry or strawberry! It's Finnish!), and generally serve it with coffee and some type of pork sausage, but the sausage was absent this year sadly.
Reply to Baden We've got 7-11s here. Next time opt for the roller dog and drawer bun and give it a squirt of neon yellow cheese, assuming Thai convenience store fare is the same as I'm used to.
Gee thanks, dude. Well, I hope you enjoy your feast, Scrooge, while tiny Tim here chews on his neon cheese and cardboard burritos.
You're like one of those people who looks for sympathy in your suffering, so you've scrounged up the worst meal imaginable, first by microwaving a box of frozen chicken meat byproduct, and then by grabbing a week old burrito and a Power Aid and then comparing yourself to that old standby Victorian era gimp Tiny Tim.
On Thansgiving, I sat at the bar next to an Asian guy who knew little English, who ordered shrimp, soup, lobster, dessert, and drinks. He then couldn't get his credit card to work and left without paying.
That was a much better play than yours. I like undeserved reward over undeserved suffering. It just makes for a better Christmas story for me.
You're like one of those people who looks for sympathy in your suffering, so you've scrounged up the worst meal imaginable, first by microwaving a box of frozen chicken meat byproduct, and then by grabbing a week old burrito and a Power Aid and then comparing yourself to that old standby Victorian era gimp Tiny Tim.
Yes. Absolutely. And great markets. 7-11 is overpriced and a lot of the stuff in there is pretty low quality by comparison. But they do a decent Thai milk tea and some of the toasted sandwiches are OK too.
"It’s common in Ireland to see a sign saying ‘soup and sambo offer’ or ‘tea and sambo’. In Ireland this doesn’t raise an eyebrow but for people from other countries it is a really strange thing to see. The word ‘sambo’ is an old – fashioned racist term that in most other countries is completely unacceptable to use. There are many stories of Irish people asking for a sambo in London and being looked at with complete confusion."
"Sambo is a term that originated in Ireland and is used to refer to a sandwich made with white bread, butter, and a filling of your choice. On the other hand, a sandwich is a more general term that refers to any type of food that consists of two or more slices of bread with a filling in between. The filling can be anything from meat and cheese to vegetables and spreads."
"Sambo is a term that originated in Ireland and is used to refer to a sandwich made with white bread, butter, and a filling of your choice
Interesting.
I have never heard or read this word and when I was in Dublin I never saw a sign with 'sambo' included on it, or I just don't remember it...
Well, the web page says that although “Sambo” is a term that has been used in various contexts throughout history it is evident that, in your post and in most cases, it is used to refer to a special type of sandwich. So, it would be weird if someone thought and used this word pejoratively. In fact, the term “sambo” is believed to be a shortened version of “sandwich and accompaniments, and I guess this is what folks think when they see or read 'sambo' somewhere.
There's a similar issue in Australian slang apparently. I should have made the connection because I have heard the pejorative use but the sandwich meaning is absolutely dominant in my mind from it being a common word in Ireland, so it didn't occur to me. Anyway, something to be aware of. Again, apologies to @frank and anyone else who was offended. I don't think the etymology question is settled but it could be a case of "convergent evolution".
Reply to Baden "Little black" Sambo -- the pejorative term -- is 19th century. but "Sambo" references a sandwich arose only the 1970s. I read a children's book about Little Black Sambo and tigers when I was learning to read in the early 1950s. L. B. Sambo climbed a tree to escape tigers, which circled the tree, faster and faster, until they turned into butter. "Sambo' referencing black people is, of course, very pejorative, implying that black men (men in particular?) are incapable of mature behavior.
Reply to javi2541997 Three possibilities -- a) 'sambo' as a slang term may have faded by the time you were in Dublin. b) 'sambo' might have been verbal slang, not typically used on a printed sign. c) maybe Baden's familiarity with 'sambo' was owning to slumming among the lowest levels of Irish society which you didn't encounter.
maybe Baden's familiarity with 'sambo' was owning to slumming among the lowest levels of Irish society
I wish! We bogmen aren't even allowed be part of this "society" thing at all. We are mocked, pilloried and ostracized simply for habits like taking mud baths and eating live badgers.
javi2541997December 26, 2023 at 08:51#8650770 likes
c) maybe Baden's familiarity with 'sambo' was owning to slumming among the lowest levels of Irish society which you didn't encounter.
I lived near a hospital. Well, being more specific, the hospital was in front of the house. The street is called 'Leo'. Easy to remember and this is why my mates and I decided to lease the house. I can't remember the name of the neighborhood, but searching on Google it says the street I lived belongs to 'Drumcondra' near to 'Broadstone'.
As well as I recall, I don't have memories of having a 'slumming' vibe with the neighbors or the people, generally. Most of them were friendly and educated. I think I have never read that word because it is very slang and maybe the bars and other places use more formal words.
It is sad... because a 'sambo' is an Irish sandwich, obviously. Due to bad and lascivious people, we (English learners) have to avoid the use of cool slang words because it can be dangerous or offensive depending on the context. I think that a sambo will always mean to me a type of sandwich... only a racist would use that word in bad manners.
javi2541997December 26, 2023 at 11:19#8650910 likes
Reply to Hanover It surprised me a lot that this racist 'label' came from the Spanish empire because I had never heard 'Zambo' in my vocabulary. Not even from the most fascist or racist political parties in my country... I guess the use of this word has been fading over the passage of the years.
Reply to javi2541997 There are a vareity of terms used to describe a person's percentage of genetic racial diversity, all coming from a time when such things socially and legally mattered. I think the term we've identified is one of those. I've seen these terms used more in New Orleans and Lousiana generally for some reason, which would have been a French influence and not Spanish, but those designations seemed to mean more there than other areas.
Those fortunately now obsolete words get very little use these days, only being dredged up when someone can't think of a better slang word for a sandwich.
unenlightenedDecember 26, 2023 at 14:40#8651280 likes
I would suggest an entirely different origin for the food related sambo along the lines of the Australian habit of shortening a word and then adding a decorative syllable back in just for fun. Barbecue shortened to barb and then lengthened to barbie, ferinstance. Thus sandwich distorted to samidge, shortened to sam, and decorated with an o, a favourite letter of the Irish, the b inserting itself as a natural transitional letter. easing the mouth movement from closed m to open o.
It would mind you also amuse the Irish to refer to the article named for the Earl of Sandwich, or any English aristocrat with a derogatory racialised epithet.
I like the idea of ethinicizing sandwiches, perhaps starting with the Scots. I think it'd be clever to add a Mc to the name of every food item, like McMuffins, McRibs or things like that. I don't know, maybe if there were a really big sandwich we could go with the Large Mac or maybe even then Grand Mac. Maybe there's something better along those lines. I'll have to think about it, but I do think I might be on to something BIG.
Shift in idea guys...
Alright guys, stay with me on this one. I've got a an amazing idea. Instead of McDonald's, we're going to have O'Donalds, the new fangled version from the Irish. Instead of the Big Mac, we'll have the Big O, with the campaign slogan being "The Big O, now cumming!" To promote the product, we'll have a man dressed up in a clown suit and he'll be calling the kids over trying to give away Big Os to them.
UNICEF Photo of the Year 2023
Make that Photos (plural).
At first, I thought that the kid in Saprunova's 3rd photo was holding electronics in their hand, but I think it's decorative.
Great photos.
I had Belle's Hot Chicken last night, which coleslaw and fries. It's an Aussie attempt at Southern fried chicken and, based on my experience, just a super expensive version of KFC, with too much flavour enhancer. KFC via MSG. If you are going to buy some piss-shit fried chicken prepared by a petulant 17 year-old who picks his nose in the kitchen, then go to the masters. KFC.
Reply to Tom Storm I've heard that some workers in the Pizza Hut jerk off into the pizza dough. They call it the DNA pizza (the "DNA variously being counted as being short for 'Dirty, Nasty Additive' or "Disgusting Natural Additive").
I think this obscenity should be considered a sexual offense, punished by law and a prosecutor shall proceed against the worker who does so.
Ah, but don't be so quick to judge my young friend. For example, did you know:
"The use of human saliva in fermentation actually predates the advent of rice farming in Japan. During the J?mon period, folks would chew starchy foods like acorns, millet, and buckwheat to create fermentation starters. The amylase enzymes in human saliva breaks down the complex sugars in these foods, after which wild yeasts could feed on the sugars and convert them into alcohol."
These foods very well could have saved countless lives perhaps even entire empires! Fancy that.
javi2541997December 27, 2023 at 07:44#8653680 likes
Reply to Outlander Human saliva is disgusting, and I wish I had never read the link you posted above. But it doesn't go beyond just being a disgusting act. It is not the same if we are referring to SEMEN.
If someone - in his behavior of unlimited knowledge - decides to use his reproductive fluid without the consent of others, it should be considered a sexual offence...
Most respectable pizza parlours now offer it as an unlisted "special order" toping. It's a must, to stay competitive, just like pineapple. Ask for the jizza pizza, they'll know what you mean.
I've heard that some workers in the Pizza Hut jerk off into the pizza dough. They call it the DNA pizza (the "DNA variously being counted as being short for 'Dirty, Nasty Additive' or "Disgusting Natural Additive").
I actually worked at a Pizza Hut back in the late 1980s and that wasn't a thing back then. I actually find that story pretty doubtful just because the idea that a bunch of guys would be standing around an oven while someone masturbated in the open kitchen isn't something I could envision, although I think anyone who's worked in a kitchen can attest to some pretty disgusting stories.
@Wayfarer
People who smoked so much that their lungs started falling apart live in fear of the way they're going to die because they know what it's like to struggle to get that next breath. Some people will try to assure them, but it's a lie. Death will be worse than they imagined.
@Mikie
She came in hemorrhaging and gasping. They stabilized her but there wasn't much that could be done. Her father poured lye down her throat. One nurse quit healthcare after that. She couldn't take it anymore.
@Hanover
This guy's son was on ECMO. It's a heart lung machine. It went on for a long time, and they eventually realized there was no way the kid could live without the machine, but it has to stop sometime because the kid was actually rotting at the points of entry.
This kid was wide awake, in his father's arms when they turned it off.
Reply to javi2541997Reply to Janus In "Down and Out in Paris and London" George Orwell observed that French waiters at exclusive restaurants would sometimes spit on the plate of food as they were about to carry it out of the kitchen into the dining room. These depression-era workers hated their rich customers.
As for jerking off into the pizza, pissing in the mustard, spiting on the KFC, the burger; or making Chinese hot and sour soup out of the left overs on the plates coming back to the kitchen, these are probably 99.5% apocryphal tales. Meaning something of the sort has happened but not very often. I've been hearing these stories since...1965 when I was living in college dorms.
There are "urban myths" about batter fried rats turning up in KFC, cigarette butts in Coka Cola (back when it was in glass bottles), and so on. Not that these things NEVER happened, just that they may or may not have happened once.
These stories may arise out of related information or prejudice about workers. In the real world, we have outbreaks of disease arising from feces getting on melons. How did that happen? Lettuce that makes 300 people very sick. Reports in the news about filthy restaurant kitchens. Workers are usually to blame, the stories go.
Health risks? Things go on in kitchens (public and private) that you really don't want to know about.
Noble DustDecember 28, 2023 at 04:19#8657540 likes
I received a proper 8 quart stock pot for Christmas, so this week's post holidaze dinner was Tuscan White Bean Soup. Cannellini beans, Tuscan kale, white wine, etc. Vegetarian and quite healthy in contrast to the past week's gluttony.
Deleted userDecember 28, 2023 at 19:45#8659620 likes
Since this a shoutbox everybody should type in caps lock
Reply to Noble Dust 2 gallon of vegetarian white bean soup sounds more penitential than holiday gluttony and sloth deserve. But... it will be good for your soul. The angels in heaven will rejoice but most of them give heaven's vegetarian cafeterias a pass. An eternity of kale. God! The "Hellsapoppin" BBQ and the Perpetual Pork Roast Cafe get much more business.
javi2541997December 29, 2023 at 13:34#8661600 likes
Have you ever done something (like singing, cooking, arguing, etc.) on the rooftop of a building/house?
When I was coming back home, I was listening to 'Don't Let Me Down' by The Beatles. This song has always been iconic because the band played on the rooftop of a building in London. Then, I started to think if I ever did something on the rooftop of the building I live in.
When I was a kid, I went up to the sixth floor where the rooftop is located. I can't recall why I was there, but there were stones on the ground, and I remember this because I actually asked my friends:'Why the hell are there stones on the rooftop?'
The concierge scolded us for being there and threatened to tell our parents. We walked down the stairs laughing.
Reply to javi2541997 Stones/pebbles/gravel were put on mid-century roofs as a decorative homage to Japanese stone gardens - a "karesansui" (???) garden. Consider it a dry landscape.
Have you ever done something (like singing, cooking, arguing, etc.) on the rooftop of a building/house?
In my teens I once smoked a joint with some then-friends from school, before they lost their minds, on my roof. Not to imply they all lost their minds whilst on my roof, simply that it happened to occur in later years. It was after school and nobody was home so one of us came up with the idea of getting on the roof. If I recall correctly we got on top of my buddies car that was parked adjacent to the overhang and then hoisted ourselves up.
Unfortunately, shortly after, my ever-vigilant mother (may God rest her soul) happened to pull up unexpectedly and off schedule. We went to the other, obscured side of the pitched roof and if I remember correctly, had to jump off it to the ground below. We did so and entered the back door of the house which entered into a small laundry room. I heard what was presumably my mother's inquisitive knocks at the front door so to make sure everyone was able to depart without scrutiny I proposed a code phrase I would utter loudly when I opened the front door to confirm it was in fact my mother and that upon hearing it my companions were to leave out the back door into their car and to be on their way.
Non-Christians were expressly forbidden in my household, mind you. Especially unsupervised! So I opened the door and in fact it was her, said the agreed upon phrase, and likely smelling at least moderately of marijuana calmly explained I had stayed late after school missing the bus to partake in a limited time extracurricular activity and was only able to get a ride back from some friends who happened to have been smoking, which I assumed was tobacco, and did not partake in the least. I don't think she quite believed me but nevertheless the topic never came up again. True story.
Once I saw a beautiful woman on the roof, so I summoned her to my lair, but she was married. I impregnated her nonetheless, but I didn't want her husband to know, so I encouraged him to sleep with her so he'd think the child his. He refused, claiming he was a soldier on active duty and obligated to spend his time only with his fellow warriors. As king, I arrived at the sinister plan to send him to the front lines where he would die and never learn of the adulterous affair. My plan worked, but our child would be born only to soon die, leaving me devastated. We remained together however, having a second child who be the wisest of all and would inherit the throne.
I wrote a song about it, as only through art might I endure such tragedy.
javi2541997December 30, 2023 at 07:59#8664900 likes
Reply to Tom Storm Although I spent nearly three years reading all kinds of Japanese stuff, I never read that word and decorative practice. But this is the shoutbox, mates, and we all learn something new in this thread every day.
It is obvious that what you wrote is a true story. Everybody here believes it. One of the main things I have learned is that people feel more confident about sharing life experiences in a thread than in real life.
Noble DustDecember 30, 2023 at 08:24#8664930 likes
By the pedantic way, 'octopi' is incorrect because 'octopus' is based on Greek ' octo' -- eight -- and pous/pod --foot-- not Latin. Go forth, armed with this invincible knowledge.
By the pedantic way, 'octopi' is incorrect because 'octopus' is based on Greek ' octo' -- eight -- and pous/pod --foot-- not Latin. Go forth, armed with this invincible knowledge
But as the Octopus grew and multiplied, it became necessary to speak of him in the plural; and here a whole host of difficulties arose. Some daring spirits with little Latin and less Greek, rushed upon octopi; as for octopuses, a man would as soon think of swallowing one of the animals thus described as pronounce such a word at a respectable tea-table. In this condition of affairs, we are glad to know that a few resolute people have begun to talk about Octopods, which is, of course, the nearest English approach to the proper plural.
— The Bradford Observer (West Yorkshire, Eng.), 7 Nov. 1873
He meandered on for fifty minutes in a long and rambling tirade ... adorned with gloomy forebodings of a time near at hand when he, together with all the other horny-handed sons of toil (by the way his hands were very nice and white) would be enslaved, and education denied their children by those "octopuses," the "millionaires."
— The Arkansas Gazette (Little Rock, AR), 20 Oct. 1886
javi2541997December 30, 2023 at 20:31#8666400 likes
Speaking of which, New Years resolution: need to go T-Total for a few months. I've handled it for the month of July (Australian winter) for the last few years as part of a fund raiser, but I'm on meds for blood sugar and pressure and would surely love to get off them. The only way to do it is to loose kilos and stop drinking for enough time to really make a difference, like three months.
Also: go back to practice and improve my jazz piano style.
javi2541997December 31, 2023 at 05:12#8667780 likes
Wait a minute...
due to the time zone, Australia is near to starting the year 2024. So, our mates, @Tom Storm and @Banno, will live in a time travel paradox because while they were in a new year, we were in another (in the past). They are then suddenly surprised to find two versions of themselves: 2023 TPF Banno and Tom, and 2024 Banno and Tom in 'real' life. I consider the shoutbox more real than my daily life, by the way...
Honestly, this is the only moment of the year when we can put into practice the empirical existence of the blurred concept of time.
Between 31st December and 1st January we will all have disturbing consequences for the metaphysics of identity. But specifically, Banno and Tom.
This phrase should be posted on the TPF quote cabinet.
Reply to Noble Dust I think I have never interacted with him. But thank you for letting me know he is an Aussie as well, so I can confirm there is another person who will suffer disturbing consequences for his metaphysical identity in just a couple of hours. :smile:
Reply to Noble Dust Oh, I’m used to it. I have family in the US and it’s always yesterday when I speak to them. But there’s no metaphysics involved. Only reference frames.
Between 31st December and 1st January we will all have disturbing consequences for the metaphysics of identity.
Remember that planet earth has different accumulations of mass making it uneven, which means that spacetime is slightly uneven in relation to other places on the surface. So, depending on where you are, you exist in different speeds of reality compared to others, however accurate your clock is to your timezone. Add gravitational waves and everything gets wobbly to the point that no one is accurately in neither the right place or time compared to everyone else.
Makes it even harder to count down to midnight :party:
It's an hour and a half to New Year here. The area around campus is apocalyptic-level quiet, students having flown their dorms to nest in family homes for the holiday. Left are only me and a bevy of stray dogs that have gathered around me as I am the largest living thing remaining in the vicinity and so in their addled canine brains must be the alpha. They have a borg-like level of group compliance and so I have named them as a group "Joe".
So, depending on where you are, you exist in different speeds of reality compared to others, however accurate your clock is to your timezone. Add gravitational waves and everything gets wobbly to the point that no one is accurately in neither the right place or time compared to everyone else.
Yeah, this is so interesting to me. Because whilst we are talking about time zones and Christmas stuff, there are some mates from Australia and New Zealand who are already in 2024.
As Banno pointed out, they (a person from Australia) are always living in our 'future' and this fact blew my mind this morning (well, their eve, specifically speaking). In this context, I appreciate the effort of the states to establish the UTC to avoid possible confusion.
Yet, this subject reminds me of Kant when he stated that time is only empirically real and 'does not exist' independently among things in themselves.
javi2541997December 31, 2023 at 16:07#8669120 likes
Anyhow to continue my story, me and Joe have been tramping across the campus and one thing I didn't tell you about this place is it was built on a swamp and is criss-crossed with canals full of awesomely endowed water monitors, the type that come and lay across the road like huge slugs you can't even get a bike around. So, I hear a rustle by the bank and Joe starts growling and next thing he's right down at the canal's edge and there's the most gawd-awful thrashing, and sure as mud, he's got his collective teeth in a monitor and it's a big 'un and by gum this lizard is not going down without a fight. He's already whipped two bits of Joe into the canal and another couple just ran off and I'm facing the life-and-death-serious possibility of taking this big boy on myself if the rest of Joe doesn't show up to the plate right now.
Well, time for a coffee break. I'll tell you the rest in a minute.
Well, faith and begorrah, I hadn't supped at me pot of coffee for more than two minutes and sure wasn't I down to one Joe (who for the sake of simplicity, I will call "Joe"). Well, Joe was the best of Joe and was giving that slimy beggar an awful chewing, but fate struck ill and he slipped in the mud and the rampant reptile took full advantage and with a screaming whip of his tail, didn't he lash poor Joe into the canal. There's me now with nothin' but half a pot of coffee in me hand facin' the medusa of monitors and me own last moments on this fine earth. Well, whether 'twas skill or luck I don't know, but as the lizard lunged at me I jerked me arms out wide and the scalding coffee flew from the pot and right in its eyes. I can tell ya it wasn't too pleased at that and backed off for...
I had been puffing on a cigarette, which I had resigned to be my last, for hardly a few moments when the monitor made ready to resume its attack. I said one final prayer to St. George, bowed to the lizard's greater physical firepower, and made peace with my fate. Suddenly, my loyal hound Joe rose into view! He had made it back to the bank and had at the crucial moment outflanked our beady-eyed blinder! With renewed faith and vigour, I thrust my cigarette tip into one of the monitor's already scalded eyes while Joe bit down on its tail. Shocked, blinded, and immobile the reptile let out the most awful rasp before whipping itself free in desperation and retreating back into the canal. In a vengeful fury I almost followed it in but Joe stayed me with a friendly bark and I soon regained my gentlemanly composure.
Quick glass of wine before the next episode.
Deleted userDecember 31, 2023 at 16:56#8669400 likes
I was in Portugal too, the city of Porto. I remember it as backwards country, not well developed and not really "European". Nobody cares about Portugal after all... Brazil is more important nowadays.
Case in point, Spain does resemble England in that aspect. Pretending not to care while snarkily throwing shade and insulting. It is okay to have negative emotions, getting on the high horse for not having them then displaying them right after is not okay — disagreeable behaviour.
'Aving finished ze wine and thrown ze glass celebratorily into ze canal where it bonked on ze defeated monitor's nose in a humiliating post-coup coup de grace, I continued on my journey with Joe who soon regathered into more Joe as hiz dizparate canine pieces, like magnetic filings, found once more zere place on the pole. It was a wonderful night of ze full moon and I was feeling rather 'appy in my desperate loneliness and human izolation, not really wanting for another soul apart from my beloved group dog, when I zaw zitting on a wall at ze perimeter of ze campus a dark figure of darkness with dark hair and dark clothes and the darkest of dark expressions.
It vas a woman.
"Are you OK", I azked her without even realizing I 'ad zpoken.
"No, I'm not OK", she replied. "I am the only person left on this campus and it's New Year and it's boring and..."
"I am here too."
She looked at me sceptically.
"Are you a person?"
I zuppose I must have been a little mezzed up after my conquest of ze great lizard. Perhaps I waz even phyzically indistinguishable from zat great canine agglomerate, Joe. But I had an answer:
"I zink zerefore I am, Madam!"
I could see ze scales lift from 'er eyes and she zaw me zen for who I am, a great philosopher, and even, a human being.
"It's midnight!" she said.
"Happy New Year!"
javi2541997December 31, 2023 at 17:39#8669930 likes
Reply to Baden What a gorgeous, excellent, beautiful and emotional story, Baden!
Am I the only mate who broke in tears in this part? Jesus Christ, Joe is a lovely and loyal canine. I had been worried about him during all the story and when I saw his ears and snout I started to cry of pure happiness. (It is obvious that the latter is part of my imagination and I thought this is what Biden saw when Joe rose into view!)
Reply to Baden I liked how your nationality remained in flux with varying accents. I wasn't sure if you were in the plural like Joe was and there were many of you or if you just couldn't keep track of your characters from minute to minute.
I also thought had you referred to your coffee as a pot of Joe and cup of Joe you could have kept it more confusing.
At the end I was thinking the young women would become a love interest and maybe you'd have to use your bogman powers to save her from the lizard, but the story ended suddenly, leaving your readers hanging on for the sequel.
Happy New Year to everyone who has already crossed into 2024.
We are missing just under 8 hours here, so it is time to eat and make preparations for getting drunk as hell. As this will be the first time in about 4 years I intend to try as hard as possible to succeed in getting really well blasted tonight.
Cheap Portuguese beer and cheaper [s]Jamaican[/s] Virgin Island rum with coconut will be used in the process.
These images are used for educational purposes, not advertising.
Reply to BannoReply to javi2541997 Here's a picture of the Four Corners Monument. where 4 US states--Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado--meet. It's treated like some sort of naturally occurring wonder, like the Grand Canyon or Gibraltar, instead of the result of merely drawing maps.
The site is located on the land of the Navajo people.
This boy is experiencing the miracle of being in 4 states at once.
There is a 1,636 megawatt coal fired power plant near by. It's owned by a consortium of SW U.S. utilities. It burns 'sub-bituminous' coal from a Navajo Mine next door, delivered by a dedicated electric RR.
3 of the 5 units were shut down a few years ago to reduce air pollution.
This boy is experiencing the miracle of being in 4 states at once.
And should he kill a man where he stands, where does he get tried? Might he stand in Arizona and smoke reefer while the condemning Mormons of Utah look on? Can he flee prosecution by staying literally one step ahead of the law? Which school district would the boy attend if he declared his residence at that point? Where would he pay his state income tax?
Where you see mystery and intrigue, I just see jurisdictional nightmare.
Reply to javi2541997Reply to Banno As it happens, Schrödinger came up with the idea of superposition a couple of years after visiting the Four Corners site in 1932. The site was created in 1868. Typical of several places in the Southwest, the crossing of lines created a powerful vortex through which information may pass from an alternate universe to this (somebody else's) alternate universe.
Schrödinger sat down on the pointed marker and was soon filled with remarkable sensations and thoughts. One of my clients (coincidentally another German) who entertained all sorts of stupid nonsence, was very enthusiastic about the vortexes in Sedona, Arizona. He went there several times and acted upon the advice he received through the vortex.
He's dead now (the client; Schrödinger died a long time ago). An evil spirit passed through the vortex from an A.U. and infected him with diseases hitherto unknown to medicine.
Reply to BC Interesting. Canberra, where I reside, was designed by one Walter Burley Griffin, who set out this fair city along cosmic ley lines, as can be seen in his plans:
The lines intersect on a hill in the middle of the city. Perhaps it is coincidence, perhaps it is a similar vortex to the one BC describes, but vast sums of money have been known to enter that hill, never to be seen again. It is also the centre of the famous "Canberra Bubble". Those inside the bubble immediately forget everything they knew about the outside world.
Scottish folk singer, educator and musician JEAN REDPATH performs here. She died in 2014. Among other honors, she was a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE). I had seen her perform several times.
@javi2541997 Here's the Scottish lyrics; might as well be Jabberwocky.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And auld lang syne!
Chorus:
For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne.
We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
And surely ye'll be your pint stowp!
And surely I’ll be mine!
And we’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
Chorus
We twa hae run about the braes,
And pou’d the gowans fine;
But we’ve wander’d mony a weary fit,
Sin’ auld lang syne.
Chorus
We twa hae paidl’d in the burn,
Frae morning sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar’d
Sin’ auld lang syne.
Chorus
And there’s a hand, my trusty fere!
And gie’s a hand o’ thine!
And we’ll tak a right gude-willie waught,
For auld lang syne.
Reply to Banno Weird! Ley lines sound like Celtic flavored malarky. The ancient Celts at least had the excuse of living a long time ago. Definitely not recommended by the Society for Urban Planning,
vast sums of money have been known to enter that hill, never to be seen agai
Capitol Hill in Washington wasn't laid out with ley lines intersecting the Rotunda. Be that as it may, vaster sums of money than Canberra's have regularly disappeared in that building, practically like a conveyor belt. I don't know how to explain what goes on in Australia. Here it's plain old fashioned Celtic waste, fraud, and abuse.
What are the generally accepted practices or "best practice" for replying to a single post from a well-established thread?
I don't do this often but I recently came across something so insane I nearly couldn't help myself.
I understand every post outside of the Shoutbox or Lounge should be not only both serious (and trust me this one would be) and well-thought out but also of a directly relative and contributive nature to the OP or topic at hand.
Presumably, if the post in question is in fact all of the above, surely my reply questioning or rather explaining how one or more assertions or claims are incorrect must be as well? :chin:
Best,
Outlander
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 01, 2024 at 13:36#8673160 likes
Add gravitational waves and everything gets wobbly to the point that no one is accurately in neither the right place or time compared to everyone else.
Hey, 20k posts. :party: My wife is right, I definitely spend too much time doing this.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 01, 2024 at 22:54#8676050 likes
Reply to Wayfarer
OMG! You inspired me to check my own count. I'm two posts a way from 12,000. Make that one... Gotta go, I'm very busy, I have another post to do.
As of this writing I'm at 7,720 posts. For some reason that number strikes me as a very bizarre number. I feel like this is my first time seeing it in print.
Reply to Noble Dust What's weird is that it's not divisible by 9. For that, the digits have to add up to a number divisible by 9. 7,722 would work. The answer would be 858.
I used to be a numerologist, but I got cocky with some of the numbers and I got fired for two things: (1) hubris, and (2) numbering things as 2 when there was just 1.
My dryer broke, likely from a power surge from a recent thunderstorm. I took a string and tied it at various places throughout my garage, zigzagging about, turning my garage into a drying hanging room.
The clothes don't dry when I open the door to my garage because dryers stop drying when the door is open, and the clothes know this and so they do as they were reared.
One clothes of mine, Jiminy Blueshirt. remarked to another clothes of mine, Peggy Onesock, that he didn't like the slowdry of the dryroom, but he preferred the quickdry of the drybox. Peggy disagreed, but she likely was just distraught and being contrary due to her losing her partner, Robert Othersock.
What if you woke up and found that you're a bird sitting in a bush that has a never-ending supply of berries? What then?
That actually happened to me twice. The first time, I didn't appreciate what I had and I left in search of something more only to return back to see that it had all been stolen by Jeff. The second time, it was good until I got divorced and my ex got the whole bush and I got the mortgage on the bush. So unfair, but what are you going to do?
Then I unbirded and got a job selling auto parts wholesale direct to the public so as to eliminate the middle man. It was a pretty good gig for a while, but then I lost my keys.
Why is it impossible to use undo (control Z) sometimes on the text box of this website?
It is to teach you that sometimes in life there just aren't do overs. When I was a kid, you typed, and if you typed wrong, there it remained. You might try to cover it up with all sorts of things, but it was still there if you looked hard enough.
There might come a time when we have to go back to those times, so a feature was installed to create some level of unpredictability so you'll still know what to do if Ctrl-Z is not available, God forbid.
Reply to Hanover
The old key problem. I no longer have a key. I have a fob. With my new Toyota, you just push a button on the dashboard and it turns on. I feel like I'm driving a fake car.
NotAristotleJanuary 02, 2024 at 20:16#8680050 likes
As a philosophy major, I now have the insight and wisdom to know that I should have picked a different major.
Hey, I have 100 comments! Wohoo!
Edit: Now I have 101, darn!
Edit 2: Now I have 102, double darn!
...
The old key problem. I no longer have a key. I have a fob. With my new Toyota, you just push a button on the dashboard and it turns on. I feel like I'm driving a fake car.
I had the same sensation with my 2020 KIA. But what goes around comes around: I learned to drive many years ago in a 1939 Buick sedan that had a chrome button you pushed in to start the engine.
As a philosophy major, I now have the insight and wisdom to know that I should have picked a different major.
You probably should have, but it depends. Life plans? A liberal arts BA with a major in English, History, Philosophy, etc. is acceptable for many employers outside of academia. The degree proves you can persist at a task for several years; you can manage abstract material; you can meet deadlines and fulfill expectations, etc.
If your life plans are focused on teaching college, you'll probably be disappointed. Too many PhDs, not enough students. If you want to be a doctor, maybe biology would have been a better choice. If you have no idea what you want to do in life, then it doesn't matter.
“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where.
The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere.
The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”
I had the same sensation with my 2020 KIA. But what goes around comes around: I learned to drive many years ago in a 1939 Buick sedan that had a chrome button you pushed in to start the engine.
Wow! Why did they switch over to keys?
NotAristotleJanuary 02, 2024 at 23:14#8681100 likes
Reply to BC I'm kind of thinking to take a left turn towards a career in the medical field. So yeah, biology would have been more appropriate.
Deleted userJanuary 03, 2024 at 14:09#8682730 likes
I have a passing, fleeting even, interest in history. That is the case simply because there is so much misinformation and, genuinely, lies about it; I like to uncover the truth when other people settle for comfortable make-belief. To use WW2 as an example (obviously), we have direction-brains on one side claiming that Hitler was right-wing, the other side that he is left-wing! Stalin was not true socialism and Mao Tsetung killed 150 million people! Yugoslavia was a multiethnic utopia and Mussolini built Italy from the ground! Well, in history truth comes in shades, but throwing the garbage aside, I came across this quote (for the 1000th time) recently: Quoting Joseph Goebbels
Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth
Even though most articles about this quote will not put it like that, it is clear that they imply Goebbels is a cartoonishly evil character explaining his master plan (propaganda strategy): lying. Goebbels was indeed a very wicked character even for his time, but since Germans today are intelligent people, I don't think they were so stupid back then, especially when there were so many great scientists and philosophers and intellectuals there at the time, even more compared to today, there is no way they would not raise eyebrows at one of their leaders admitting to lying to their faces.
Well, I did some research and there is no evidence Goebbels ever said that, the quote actually comes from a 1972 book by psychoanalyst Walter Charles Langer called "The Mind of Adolf Hitler". And the closest thing to it actually comes from Hitler, in Mein Kampf, though he is talking in general, not about his rhetorical strategy. The Jewish library itself says there is no evidence Goebbels has anything to do with it, even though a Harvard professor quotes it on his blog.
Another one is "Accuse the other of that which you are guilty", also attributed to Goebbels. There is no evidence he ever says that, instead, in his Nuremberg rally of 1934, he says "The cleverest trick used in propaganda against Germany during the war was to accuse Germany of what our enemies themselves were doing.". Ironically, by misquoting, they grant Goebbels of all people his point.
Well, I did some research and there is no evidence Goebbels ever said that, the quote actually comes from a 1972 book by psychoanalyst Walter Charles Langer called "The Mind of Adolf Hitler". And the closest thing to it actually comes from Hitler, in Mein Kampf, though he is talking in general, not about his rhetorical strategy. The Jewish library itself says there is no evidence Goebbels has anything to do with it, even though a Harvard professor quotes it on his blog.
I found the quote as early as 1869 in a book entitled, A Crown of Life by a one Isa Blagen.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/48040008-the-crown-of-a-life-by-the-author-of-agnes-tremorne
Well, I did some research and there is no evidence Goebbels ever said that
Given your "passing, fleeting, even" interest in history, how did you go about determining that there was no evidence for what Goebbels did or did not say? As the Hitler's Minister of Public Enlightenmen [i][sic][/I] and Propaganda he wrote and said a lot of things. You checked all that out?
It is the case that many very famous quotations are apocryphal. Somebody should have said it; somebody did say it; just maybe later, in another place.
Dorothy Parker and Claire Booth Luce were social rivals and did not like each other. Once they arrived at a door at the same moment, Who would go first? Luce beckoned to Parker saying, "Age before beauty." Parker, no slouch at sarcasm, proceeded through the door saying, "Pearls before swine."
True?? Hollywood columnist Sheilah Graham claimed that she heard it directly from Parker in 1938. That doesn't mean the quote was produced under those circumstances. What is certain is that Parker is the source of one of the greatest putdowns of all time.
My guess is that a number of people have gone on record saying, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth." If Donald Trump didn't say it, it seems to be his modus operandi.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 10:04#8686390 likes
Reply to Deleted user
I think you would get more out of making such points to the purveyors of theism, as they have such a major influence, and imo (I agree with Hitchens), a pernicious influence, on the sociopolitical everyday lives of people at a local, national, inter-national and global level. If we cannot be absolutely sure about what a modern pig like Goebbels said, how much less, can we be sure about what Jesus said, or even if such characters were just invented by later 'storytellers with an agenda.'
Deleted userJanuary 04, 2024 at 12:55#8686570 likes
Given your "passing, fleeting, even" interest in history, how did you go about determining that there was no evidence for what Goebbels did or did not say?
The way I determined there is no evidence is because there is no evidence anywhere. And the exact quote is found in a 1972 book and not attributed to Goebbels. Skimming through the rest of your comment, you are clearly a psychologically unwell person. I advice seeking help.
I think you would get more out of making such points to the purveyors of theism
That is true. Nazis today are completely irrelevant. I only decided to post it here because I did the research anyway, and it is good to have it documented somewhere so people don't make the same innocent mistake as the Harvard professor.
When it comes to religion, I do make such points against the Islamic influence here in Europe, but I don't see how that is related at all.
Oh sorry, I didn't realise I was dealing with a sad wee troll.
I am not trolling anyone, in fact the thing you quoted is not addressed to you. Going off your deranged reply, however, it seems it would be well-suited to address it to you as well.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 14:30#8686850 likes
Reply to Deleted user
If you cannot debate in a rational manner then you should just get some rest, before you hurt yourself trying to understand what research is.
Here is some music to help you with your trolling tendencies and your professed disrespect for the english language.
can we be sure about what Jesus said
— universeness
I don't think Jesus was a real person honestly.
What's that got to do with it? We know that Daddy Bear said "Who's been eating My porridge?", and Gandalf wrote "Not all who wander are lost.".
I don't think @Deleted user@universeness or @unenlightened exist either - they are mere pseudo-names; but that doesn't prevent us from saying things and knowing what we each said.
Reply to unenlightened Atheists seem to care about whether there were an actual Jesus and what the specific words that came out of his mouth than do many theists.
I thought Tom Sawyer was a great book when I thought it was written by Mark Twain, but then I learned it was written by Samuel Clemens and then I thought it sucked.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 16:20#8687440 likes
Reply to unenlightened
Well, based on some quick research (google search), 'Who's been eating my porridge' was penned by Robert Southey and J. K. Rowling penned 'Not all who wander are lost.'
Perhaps 'blessed are the peacemakers,' was penned by some ancient author we have no knowledge of and was not said by the biblical Jesus character. @universness does exist as it's one of my 'nom de plumes.' He is a real boy and not an invented character. Do you not think that these are important differences to state or have I missed your meaning?
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 17:26#8687710 likes
J. K. Rowling penned 'Not all who wander are lost.'
And as to that, You are alas mistaken. The author in question Was JRR Tolkien. But by convention, we do not claim that authors have said everything their characters say, on the basis that, for example, Plato would become an unreadable mass of contradictions. Rather in the same way, we do not convict actors in police dramas of crimes they confess to as characters.
My point is that we know that the Jesus that Christians care about said the things that he is reported as having said, whether such a person existed or not, and pedantic literalism is a stupid waste of time, and unfit even for shout box discussion. Or else, if you disagree, you should be ashamed of posting here under false pretences.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 17:53#8687850 likes
In Rivendell, Frodo recollects the wizard's words in song: "All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost" (LOTR 240).
I cannot quote every word from all the Harry Potter books and I did not claim that Rowling penned these words 'first.' It's easy to do a little research and make a dodgy claim, isn't it!
From: Lyzasnape Summary: The term continues on after Sirius' death, and Harry Potter is not okay. Wandering about aimlessly, Harry attempts to be who everyone wants him to be while slowly coming undone. Life has never been easy for The Boy Who Lived in the Cupboard Under the Stairs, but this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Will anybody notice that Harry Potter is breaking? Is there hope? Perhaps it will soon ring true that "not all who wander are lost." This story is part of the series, Not All Who Wander are Lost. The next story in the series is What Remains.
My point is that we know that the Jesus that Christians care about said the things that he is reported as having said, whether or not such a person existed or not
This is just absolute nonsense imo and irresponsible. The truth is what matters most, especially when the existence of the biblical Jesus, is such an incredibly important question for human civilisation.
and unfit even for shout box discussion. Or else, if you disagree, you should be ashamed of posting here under false pretences.
I absolutely do disagree and it's you that should be ashamed (shout box or anywhere else,) for your unwise and unenlightened style of 'downplaying' or diluting the importance for all humans to learn how vital it is to be able to discern between the search for objectively verifiable truth and faith based claims of what is true. Faith is thee worse way to assign any high credence level to any posit, imo.
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 18:41#8688080 likes
In Rivendell, Frodo recollects the wizard's words in song: "All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost" (LOTR 240).
I cannot quote every word from all the Harry Potter books and I did not claim that Rowling penned these words 'first.' It's easy to do a little research and make a dodgy claim, isn't it!
Your commitment to truth does not even run as far as to accept correction when it is offered. The Harry Potter books were written by JK Rowling, and Frodo is a character in Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien. Two entirely different religions.
it's you that should be ashamed (shout box or anywhere else,) for your unwise and unenlightened style of 'downplaying' or diluting the importance for all humans to learn how vital it is to be able to discern between the search for objectively verifiable truth and faith based claims of what is true.
So you learn nothing from Plato's Dialogues? I'm not surprised. Or do you think they are literally true? Seriously, if you are only interested in facts, you'd be better off on a science forum. But fictional characters can say true things, anyway.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 18:57#8688130 likes
Your commitment to truth does not even run as far as to accept correction when it is offered. The Harry Potter books were written by JK Rowling, and Frodo is a character in Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien. Two entirely different religions.
So you learn nothing from Plato's Dialogues? I'm not surprised. Or do you think they are literally true? Seriously, if you are only interested in facts, you'd be better off on a science forum. But fictional characters can say true things, anyway.
I will let you keep learning from the ancient musings of such as Plato. I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dillahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
Do philosophers and philosophy place as much or more value on fables as they do on facts?
The authors of fictional characters can say true things only if those things being presented as truth can be verified in a sound and reliable manner.
I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dilahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
I very much doubt you’ve read Plato, or really any philosophy at all, which again makes me wonder what the hell you're doing here, aside from evangelism.
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:23#8688220 likes
Do philosophers and philosophy place as much or more value on fables as they do on facts?
Value? What is value? I cannot speak for all philosophy, but there is a fairly widespread distinction in philosophy between fact and value, such that the value one places on facts is not another fact, except in the trivial sense that one has made some declaration. And the value that one places in facts is therefore a matter of faith, and not a matter of fact.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:27#8688240 likes
Reply to Jamal
philosophy
/f??l?s?fi/
noun
noun: philosophy
1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
2. A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:30#8688280 likes
Reply to unenlightened
Sure, value is a subjective measure but as a democratic socialist, concordant values are paramount in influencing and deciding the direction a particular group of humans or the entire species, decides to take.
how much less, can we be sure about what Jesus said, or even if such characters were just invented
Inventing persistent people is more difficult (imho) than attributing words to people. Jesus probably existed; his actual existence might not be the existence depicted in the gospels. The Jesus Project was an effort by a crew of biblical scholars to boil down to a certainty what Jesus did and did not say. A majority of Jesus' lines ended up on the cutting room floor.
The Jesus Project didn't have at its disposal a time machine to eavesdrop on Jesus and the 12 or attend the blockbuster sermon he gave on a small hill, sadly. What they did have was lots of knowledge about the history of the politics of the time and of the early church, as recorded by various writers. Did Jesus really break a loaf of bread and say, "this is my body" or pour wine and say "this is my blood"? Or, were these words developed as part of a memorial ritual and back-attributed to Jesus?
Did Jesus say, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (which in the Gospels comes off as a dodge to get around a trap being set by those devious Pharisees) or was this back attributed to Jesus? Rendering unto Caesar is a tricky problem, which is why the tax code is so complicated.
Anyway, the Jesus Project pretty much ruins Jesus' part in the movie, depriving him of all his good lines. We could go further and say that Jesus existed (as one of numerous holy men with a following) whose reputation was built out by an organization that had no personal contact with Jesus.
The problem many people have with the Jesus Project (and the dismissals of Hitchens, Universeness, my esteemed self, et al) is that we don't know what really happened either.
What is so annoying about people like @Deleted user is that they think they have unraveled a great crime when they find a mis-attribution of a famous saying. Like, Goebbels would have still been executed after the Nuremberg Trials if he and his wife hadn't killed themselves and their children in Hitler's bunker.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:37#8688310 likes
A majority of Jesus' lines ended up on the cutting room floor.
A good way of putting it.
As you also suggest with 'back attributed,' it is also quite likely that what made the final cut was the attributes and scenario messages the true authors intended.
What is so annoying about people like Lionino is that they think they have unraveled a great crime when they find a mis-attribution of a famous saying. Like, Goebbels would have still been executed after the Nuremberg Trials if he and his wife hadn't killed themselves and their children in Hitler's bunker.
Yep, I agree.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:38#8688320 likes
Reply to BC
I suspect the gospel of Thomas never made the cut as Jesus is presented as a very nasty youth indeed.
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:47#8688370 likes
Sure, value is a subjective measure but as a democratic socialist, concordant values are paramount in influencing and deciding the direction a particular group of humans or the entire species, decided to go.
You are rambling! What is a subjective measure? It sounds like an elastic ruler where you can put the marks where you like. Aka, nonsense.
The Jesus Project was an effort by a crew of biblical scholars to boil down to a certainty what Jesus did and did not say. A majority of Jesus' lines ended up on the cutting room floor.
Another triumph of pedantic fact chasing that ignores how the story of Jesus changed the world and informs the structure of Western society to its very roots. What does it matter who exactly produced the commandment, 'Love your neighbour'; surely what matters is how a life led according to such values affects the world?
Reply to universeness I haven't read the Gospel of Thomas (I have heard about it). Jesus was presumably 29 or 30 when he started doing what he became famous for. Had he been busy building bungalows for the better class of people in Nazareth? It seems unlikely. He is reported to have been a wise child, but then most parent exaggerate their kids' IQs. Had he been something of a maverick, beach bum, beatnik, Jewish hippie, or ne'er-do-well who straightened out and got religion? Those sorts of things seem more likely than a carrier in the building trades. What possessed the 12 mostly riff-raff who were his following?
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:55#8688400 likes
You are rambling! What is a subjective measure? It sounds like an elastic ruler where you can put the marks where you like. Aka, nonsense.
If you wanna get Panto, then oh no i'm not, but you are!
A subjective measure is, for example, a personal assessment of that which is claimed as true by those who have inadequate or non-existent evidence for their claim.
Is your elastic ruler your analogy for an expanding universe or how theists try to measure the omni characters of the god they also posit as ineffable to humans? Who is really on the side of the nonsense peddlers between you and I?
Would you like to offer your opinion (Aka, subjective measure?)
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 19:57#8688410 likes
Another triumph of pedantic fact chasing that ignores how the story of Jesus changed the world
A great narrative beats "the facts" every time. There's no such place as Middle Earth, but that hasn't kept me from spending a lot of time there. Likewise MML&J.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 20:01#8688460 likes
Reply to BC
Some highlights:
[i] One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Quran 5:110 and in a medieval Jewish work known as Toledot Yeshu, although Jesus's age at the time of the event is not specified in either account.
In another episode, a child disperses water that Jesus has collected. Jesus kills this first child, when at age one he curses a boy, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse. Later, Jesus kills another child via curse when the child apparently accidentally bumps into Jesus, throws a stone at Jesus, or punches Jesus (depending on the translation).
When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, Jesus miraculously strikes them blind. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but tries to teach the teacher, instead, upsetting the teacher who suspects supernatural origins. Jesus is amused by this suspicion, which he confirms, and revokes all his earlier apparent cruelty. Subsequently, he resurrects a friend who is killed when he falls from a roof, and heals another who cuts his foot with an axe. [/i]
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 20:02#8688480 likes
A subjective measure is, for example, a personal assessment of that which is claimed as true by those who have inadequate or non-existent evidence for their claim.
That's what I thought - like the value of facts. A cloak of objectivity in the word 'measure' for mere opinion, like this :
I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dilahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 20:08#8688510 likes
That's what I thought - like the value of facts. A cloak of objectivity in the word 'measure' for mere opinion, like this :
I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dilahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
— universeness
You mean like these mere opinions (subjective measures) that you offer.
Speaking of obscure biblical text that didn't make the canon, the Book of Enoch is an interesting one. There is a Christian sect in Ethiopia that considers it part of its canon. It talks about the cause of the flood being that the angels impregnated the human women and gave birth to the Nephilim, giants that once occupied the earth. The flood was to rid the world of them.
There is a reference to them at Genesis 6:4 where it says, "Here were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." This very strange passage occurs right before the flood story and appears out of place. The book of Enoch offers greater clarity as that being the cause of the flood.
You likely also recall the story set forth at Numbers 13:33 where the spies set out to Canaan to see if it were safe for the Hebrews to enter, but they saw these Nephilim and it scared them, making themselves feel like grasshoppers in their presence, " And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
Fascinating shit if you ask me, evidencing remnants of an older sort of religious tradition and one foreign to the Hebrew bible. This presents much more like what you'd see in Greek, Norse, and other traditions of a polytheism where the gods behaved as humans, having fights, battles, disputes, sex, and all sorts of relationships with humans as opposed to a God being above humans working as an all powerful force.
It shows evidence that the Bible as we know it was created to show a monotheistic tradition, but it also reveals that the monotheism was something that developed over time.
Reply to Hanover The giants the spies saw in Canaan were probably Dutch tourists. The Dutch are the tallest people on earth especially back then. These tall Deutsch folk got tired of chilly, cloudy weather hanging over their swampy homeland, so Canaan--being a land of sunny milk and honey and decadent tourist services--was the resort of choice.
Once the Israelites got established, they cracked down on all the decadence, and the Dutch went to Tenerife instead. Later the Jews bought up the Tenerife resorts, but were less fussy about decadence.
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 21:02#8688740 likes
as a democratic socialist, concordant values are paramount in influencing and deciding the direction a particular group of humans or the entire species, decides to take.
I want to help to do what I can to tip the balance against all theism/theosophism/big capitalism/fascism/plutocratic control/celebrity cults etc. Many levels of which wield demonstrable power and influence at the unacceptable level of the socio/economic/political day to day lives of all of us. Doing so matches my democratic socialist and secular humanist worldviews.
If each of us cannot pursue that which matters most to us then having a so-called 'philosophy of life' is moot and imo, academic philosophy is merely the study of a pointless, repetitive, boring series of echos, used and abused since we came out of the wilds.
Philosophy and philosophers would be wretched indeed.
unenlightenedJanuary 04, 2024 at 21:54#8688890 likes
Reply to universeness Right. You have values. I have values too. Therefore not only facts are worth talking about. This is called enquiry through dialogue. Have we begun to reach a ground of agreement?
universenessJanuary 04, 2024 at 21:59#8688920 likes
Reply to unenlightened
On the topic of values, yes, we have common ground, but on very little else during our current exchange.
To me, you predominantly remain as you label yourself, unenlightened.
Fascinating shit if you ask me, evidencing remnants of an older sort of religious tradition and one foreign to the Hebrew bible. This presents much more like what you'd see in Greek, Norse, and other traditions of a polytheism where the gods behaved as humans, having fights, battles, disputes, sex, and all sorts of relationships with humans as opposed to a God being above humans working as an all powerful force.
It shows evidence that the Bible as we know it was created to show a monotheistic tradition, but it also reveals that the monotheism was something that developed over time.
I agree that's an interesting subject. Also you might notice that the God of The Old Testament was always jealous and angry, displaying these human emotions. It wasn't until after Jesus that the idea of God being above humans working as an all powerful force was really developed. But still, Jesus is thought to be Son of God. And, the theologians have not yet removed all the humanistic aspects of God, like love and intelligence, sort of narrowing the field to include only what is considered good ones.
I think that is the manipulative part of theology, talking about how God interacts with humans. It's how children are kept in line, by threatening punishment and reward. The philosophical side of theology, like Plato for example, pushes to have such personal interaction removed from the God image altogether. It's an endless struggle amongst the theological authorities, how to represent the relationship between God and the individual human being.
This was one of the theological problems that helped me leave Christianity, the Protestant notion of having a "relationship" with God. I realized that whatever it was that I thought was happening between me and God certainly didn't resemble anything like any other actual relationship in life. It consisted of me praying (which I realized was mostly me asking for help with things I wasn't willing to face myself) and trying to interpret the resultant events of my life as God's cryptic answer. So fucked up, and so sad to see people I know still stuck in this cycle.
Also you might notice that the God of The Old Testament was always jealous and angry, displaying these human emotions.
Well, not always jealous and angry.
Isaiah 43: I have called you by your name, you are mine. ... Should you pass through the sea, I will be with you; or through rivers, they will not swallow you up. Should you walk through fire, you will not be scorched and the flames will not burn you. ...
For I am Yahweh, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your saviour. Because you are precious in my eyes, because you are honoured and I love you.
Some preachers like to take Jonathan Edwards "sinners in the hands of an angry God" approach:
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.
People forget that this is Rev. Edwards ranting and not God speaking.
It consisted of me praying (which I realized was mostly me asking for help with things I wasn't willing to face myself) and trying to interpret the resultant events of my life as God's cryptic answer. So fucked up, and so sad to see people I know still stuck in this cycle.
I actually think God answers all of your prayers. Just most of the time he says no. It's not a whole lot different if you prayed to me. I'd tell you no most of the time too and tell you to do it yourself. That's one of my most godlike qualities in fact.
unenlightenedJanuary 05, 2024 at 16:11#8691580 likes
I actually think God answers all of your prayers. Just most of the time he says no. It's not a whole lot different if you prayed to me. I'd tell you no most of the time too and tell you to do it yourself. That's one of my most godlike qualities in fact.
Can you ask Him to speak up a bit, as I'm a bit deaf, and sometimes It seems as if He's just deliberately ignoring me. It's like when you send Father Christmas your present list, and you don't get a clear 'no', just an inaudible 'wait and see', followed by disappointment and a pair of socks.
Deleted userJanuary 05, 2024 at 16:27#8691650 likes
The shoutbox has been awfully heated these past 48h, especially with the schizos who come to use mostly the politics section. I hope that wasn't unleashed by my ironic history trivia :roll: :snicker:
Reply to unenlightened I was not going to respond to your post as my way of telling you no, and in a couple of days, you'd smile, and go, "ahhhh, I see what he did there," but I went ahead and told you so that you could appreciate the joke now.
unenlightenedJanuary 05, 2024 at 20:29#8692690 likes
Reply to Hanover I'm overwhelmed by your godlike consideration, it's more than i deserve.
You likely also recall the story set forth at Numbers 13:33 where the spies set out to Canaan to see if it were safe for the Hebrews to enter, but they saw these Nephilim and it scared them, making themselves feel like grasshoppers in their presence, " And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
I wonder if those giants could be based on the Sea Peoples, who raided the Levant at the end of the Bronze Age, and we think today that the Sea People were mostly of European origin, some of them coming from even farther North than Greece, and as we know, Serbians and their neighbours today are awfully tall people. The Nephlim were even thought of as great warriors and half angel. Thracians were known for being extremely fierce people, and perhaps the lighter features helped them being thought of as half-angel? Food for thought.
It shows evidence that the Bible as we know it was created to show a monotheistic tradition, but it also reveals that the monotheism was something that developed over time.
This short documentary on Youtube talks about it, I recommend it:
What is so annoying about people like Lionino is that they think they have unraveled a great crime when they find a mis-attribution of a famous saying
Well that sounds like psychological projection. I did the research for a purpose outside of this website and decided to share it here as a historical curiosity, because information is never too much.
I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dilahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
With respect, I'd say these guys are pretty close to practicing scientism and not philosophy. I share many of their presuppositions, but they simply bracket off the hard questions of philosophy. Dillahunty has a smattering of philosophical acumen - enough to know to remain silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics for the most part. Unfortunately his public persona is that of an intemperate bully - a prick, if you like. I think on this subject it is useful to separate what is philosophy from what is aggressive secular humanist proselytising.
There is a separate conversation about what it takes to respond to the political and social implications of fundamentalists and evangelicals, but I'm not sure if this is philosophy, even if it borrows from the subject. I think we need more liberal Christians to enter this debate with the fundies.
Reply to Deleted user Not to worry. However, your old (doddering cane-wielding white-bearded) elders have arrived at a state where our brains are full of knowledge (and wisdom maybe), and non-essential new information is not always welcome. It's a problem because our 100 billion neurons are clogged with old addresses; long-gone telephone numbers; the names, faces, and habits of the departed; lyrics and melodies from the last (in my case) 77 years; random facts about everything--like the Covid19 and Ebola virus are both enclosed by lipids, or Mozart presumably disliked the sound of the flute; active and discarded systems of belief--not to mention a lifetime of boredom, thrills, joys, and resentments.
It's a burden but it takes a life-time to achieve.
Serbians and their neighbours today are awfully tall people.
They are tall. The average height of Serbian men is 5 feet 11 inches--an inch less than the average Dutch man.
In any event, the Nephlim. whatever they might be, were probably neither Dutch nor Serbian, because in 1200 b.c.e. these particular ethnic groups had not formed, and/or were not living in Western Europe. The South Slavic Serb group arrived in the Balkans after 400 a.d. The Dutch formed out of the proto-Germanic people in Europe, but where they were in 1200 b.c.e. is anybody's guess.
There was a lot of 'churn' going on in both the Roman Empire and in the peoples living north of the Danube and Rhine rivers. Given that these various people are tall now, they probably had the genes for potential tallness, if they were well fed as children.
Otherwise, the Sea People are a mystery to me.
Deleted userJanuary 06, 2024 at 01:23#8694160 likes
Not to worry. However, your old (doddering cane-wielding white-bearded) elders have arrived at a state where our brains are full of knowledge (and wisdom maybe), and non-essential new information is not always welcome. It's a problem because our 100 billion neurons are clogged with old addresses; long-gone telephone numbers; the names, faces, and habits of the departed; lyrics and melodies from the last (in my case) 77 years; random facts about everything--like the Covid19 and Ebola virus are both enclosed by lipids, or Mozart presumably disliked the sound of the flute; active and discarded systems of belief--not to mention a lifetime of boredom, thrills, joys, and resentments.
I did not read past the second line but I get what you are saying.
They are tall. The average height of Serbian men is 5 feet 11 inches--an inch less than the average Dutch man.
From my experience, Serbians are just as tall, if not taller. I believe the average height of Serbians in statistics is twisted by gypsies, Albanians, and old people. Montenegrins are even taller I heard.
In any case, I suggested that the supposed Nephlim were not Serbians, but the people who inhabited that region back then. Serbians are not fully Slavic, they have a lot of ancestry from the original Balkans people. I imagine that Bulgarian are more Thracian than they are Balto-Slavic, but I would have to do a quick amateur admixture analysis.
While technically not a nationality, the tallest people are NBA basketball players at over 6'6". The smallest people, again, while not technically a nationality, are infants, so short their feet don't touch the ground, so they must be carried tightly against women's breasts.
The averagest people are the Johnsons. They eat casseroles, enjoy the evening news, talk about the prices at the grocery stores, and they wear cozy sweaters in their cubicles at work at the can company.
Deleted userJanuary 06, 2024 at 01:39#8694330 likes
I think we need more liberal Christians to enter this debate with the fundies.
I'd love to see that. Unfortunately, biblical literalism tends to result in liberal Christians being dismissed by fundamentalists as not TRUE CHRISTIANS.
Reply to Tom StormReply to wonderer1 Besides, the untrue liberal Christians are busy praying to God to PLEASE ignore the prayers of fundamentalist Christians. There seems to be a lot of evidence that this approach is failing.
Yes, "Liberal Christian" is ultimately another way of saying "future apostate".
Often the case. I was brought up in the Baptist tradition (Australia in the 1970's) which then and now consisted of many liberal and autonomous churches which taught that the Bible was a series of allegories and, unsurprisingly, that literalism was naive and dangerous. Unfortunately they were not very successful in explaining how allegorical scriptures are meant to be of use. Or why a belief in god matters. Although I was always left with a fondness for the parable of the good Samaritan which has remained with me.
always thought it was the Jones's. Or are the Jones's the ones who are always one step ahead of the Johnsons?
The Jones begot the Johnsons, thus the "son" designation. My son is Hanoverson. My grandchild will be Hanoversonson. I see no problem with this method.
love to see that. Unfortunately, biblical literalism tends to result in liberal Christians being dismissed by fundamentalists as not TRUE CHRISTIANS.
The problem is that liberalized religions and even atheists and agnostics buy in to these restorationist claims by fundamentalist groups and accept their authenticity.
Typical threads here that attack religion accept the narrative that the literalist traditions are in fact the most authentic representations of the religion and then they go about their attack, ignoring the liberal branches as being only ad hoc modifications of real religious doctrine created to salvage an unsustainable belief system.
I also think that liberal theists have this reservation in claiming their views authentic, but instead somewhat accept they are a new fangled spin and therefore a corruption from the "true" religion.
What needs to be recognized is that no current day ancient religion is meaningfully similar to its primitive roots, but evolution has occurred throughout. You can't even clearly show a single unified belief system in the early church. Today's liberal views are just part of that evolutionary process, as are literalist views. Neither represent the elusive "true" form.
The point here is that liberal Christians (or any religion) need to fully reject (and fully believe) these current day restorationists/revivalist/primtivists hold no more claim to authenticity than they do. They waiver, as it were, in their own faith in authenticity, which means these fundamentalist groups hold sway over them.
Reply to Hanover During the medieval period (500 - 1500 c.e.) "heresies" were rife -- some of them sounding quite acceptable in these latter days of Christendom. At times it was a revolving door. In the eastern church, operating out of Byzantium, icons were in. Then they were out. Then they were back in. Out. In. Large swaths of Christendom were Arians who did not believe Christ was divine. That's one heresy among several. It took a thousand years for Christians to sort all this out. Then the Reformation came along and blew unanimity out of the water again.
Zionism is littered throughout the Torah with God promising the land to the Hebrews and describing Israel as a "land of milk and honey." Zionism is biblical.
— BitconnectCarlos
Dillahunty has a smattering of philosophical acumen - enough to know to remain silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics for the most part. Unfortunately his public persona is that of an intemperate bully - a prick, if you like. I think on this subject it is useful to separate what is philosophy from what is aggressive secular humanist proselytising.
Nice to hear an agreeable take on Dillahunty. His followers are brutal
javi2541997January 06, 2024 at 08:04#8695390 likes
Reply to javi2541997 It's dinner time here - my partner is about to serve up some corned beef, with a hot mustard sauce, new potatoes, swedes, cabbage and freshly baked, still warm bread.
Reply to AmadeusD I feel a bit mean about what I said because I think Dillahunty is sincere and he is better versed in logic than many atheists. I used to find him amusing as a guilty pleasure, but these days I struggle with his vesuvian temper and frequently abusive approach to 'education'. I think the fight with fundamentalism is probably worth having in America, given things like evangelical support of Trump, but I really wish it were other Christians taking up this cause, the way Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong used to do back in the 1980's.
javi2541997January 06, 2024 at 09:04#8695440 likes
It's dinner time here - my partner is about to serve up some corned beef, with a hot mustard sauce, new potatoes, swedes, cabbage and freshly baked, still warm bread.
Yummy! Corned beef and warm bread. My favorite. :yum:
I had for breakfast: Circle toast (aka 'bagel') with olive oil and tomato sauce. I no longer eat normal bread, I just got tired of eating the same every day.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 06, 2024 at 12:10#8695760 likes
The point here is that liberal Christians (or any religion) need to fully reject (and fully believe) these current day restorationists/revivalist/primtivists hold no more claim to authenticity than they do. They waiver, as it were, in their own faith in authenticity, which means these fundamentalist groups hold sway over them.
Intrinsic to "ambiguity" is the fact that there is no correct interpretation. It is common in general, and especially here at TPF where we assert correctness, that people do not grasp this fact. They insist that there must be a correct interpretation, as if differences in interpretation are produced only as a feature of interpretation. This completely ignores the fact that ambiguity is inherent within the author's words.
That creates a sort of Catch-22 for the interpreters of religious text. Each wants to validate one's own interpretation as in some way more authentic, or better than the others' (therefore appealing to some sort of correctness), to attract followers, all the while allowing for true ambiguity to justify the break from the prevailing authority.
So we want to say multiple interpretations are all valid, and that's simply the nature of ambiguity, and this justifies my break from the conventional. But somehow, for some reason, my interpretation is better than the others. Therefore the need for a personal relationship with God is produced, as the grounds for authenticity. The ones closest to God might appear the most likely to have the most accurate interpretation. Makes me wonder.
universenessJanuary 06, 2024 at 12:37#8695810 likes
With respect, I'd say these guys are pretty close to practicing scientism and not philosophy.
A description such as: Scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. leaves me with the thought that being accused of scientism is in the main, complimentary but I would probably more agree with 'are the best' rather than 'the only way,' but, I am not so far away from exclaiming science and the scientific method as 'the only way.' So I think it would be dishonest of me not to include myself as one of your 'these guys.'
but they simply bracket off the hard questions of philosophy. Dillahunty has a smattering of philosophical acumen - enough to know to remain silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics for the most part. Unfortunately his public persona is that of an intemperate bully - a prick, if you like. I think on this subject it is useful to separate what is philosophy from what is aggressive secular humanist proselytising.
I understand your accusations towards Matt but I wonder if you had to deal with the same rinse and repeat points from the theist callers that he gets, that you might also offer some short shrift at times.
I disagree that Matt remains silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics. He simply asks for objectively verifiable evidence and if none is available then he will correctly label the claim 'pure conjecture.' I don't know Matt's academic quals in philosophy but he can certainly discuss the topic with the best of them imo.
There is a separate conversation about what it takes to respond to the political and social implications of fundamentalists and evangelicals, but I'm not sure if this is philosophy, even if it borrows from the subject. I think we need more liberal Christians to enter this debate with the fundies.
Philosophy can and often does form the basis of political and social policy making and policy makers. Many members of atheist communities all over the world, contain deconstructed theists like Matt Dillahunty, Jimmy Snow, Shannon Q, and they regularly feature highly qualified theologians from the likes of Professor Elaine Pagels to Dr Bart Ehrman. I think they have all the range of voices they need to effectively combat the more destructive manifestations of theism.
The ones closest to God might appear the most likely to have the most accurate interpretation. Makes me wonder.
And wonder you should. :grin:
Deleted userJanuary 06, 2024 at 14:15#8695990 likes
I saw the Chomsky thread and was halfway into writing my question about creoles. At least it took me only halfway to realise the thread was in fact several months old.
The point here is that liberal Christians (or any religion) need to fully reject (and fully believe) these current day restorationists/revivalist/primtivists hold no more claim to authenticity than they do. They waiver, as it were, in their own faith in authenticity, which means these fundamentalist groups hold sway over them.
In my case you are kind of preaching to the choir. Although I try to refrain from (in any serious sense) telling others what they need to do.
I myself try to practice grumpy zebra style center's mind.
This completely ignores the fact that ambiguity is inherent within the author's words.
I think it's even beyond that. Some may interpret within the four corners of the document, others may try to interpret by figuring out the author's purpose, others may see the words as metaphor, others as contextualizing to time and place, but all of these place a microscope on the text and then begin to analyze meaning. That, I'd argue, is an idiosyncratic feature of contemporary analytic thought we impose on the ancients.
Ancient nterpretation used the text as a launching point to write a story to create a message. It was a vehicle used by the religious leaders to offer moral guidance. What the sages say is meant by the text is based upon what ideas they thought advancing, not upon what actually in a interpretive sense it said.
Read this to see what I'm talking about: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/stories-of-our-ancestors/
It's for this reason that the objections from many atheists have no application. They point to biblical text in shock and ask how anyone can live their lives based upon what it says. The answer is, ask that odd breed of reactionary literal fundamentalists who think they've got to fight science for superiority with their brand of literalism, but don't ask me. That way if interpretation is rightly rejected.
I hope this is copacetic to talk about, as it's legal where I live. I rarely smoke marijauana, but last night I smoked a fat joint and let me tell you, I've heard of people describing psychedelic effects from weed but had never experienced it myself...until last night. Yeehaw.
This word, which I’m not very familiar with (I had to look it up), kept popping into my head today, for no reason I can think of, and now I read this. Spooky.
I thought maybe someone else had used it on TPF recently and you (and my brain) were calling back to that—but I can’t find anything.
Spooky indeed. Perhaps a sign you should go read my short story and give it five stars.
Perhaps. I had a look at the titles and thought that Fugue might be yours, just based on the title (which has two meanings that might both be significant)—so maybe I’ll read that one.
Reply to Noble DustReply to Jamal I seldom hear "copacetic" in these parts (upper midwest); it was perhaps used more commonly 40 or 50 years ago.
Too Much Information Department
It was used by the tap dancer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1877-1949) in radio broadcasts during the 1930's; Robinson claimed to have coined the word in an exchange of letters with the lexicographer Charles Earle Funke (see Funke's article "Bill Robinson's 'Copesetic'," American Speech, vol. 28 [1953],
C. E. Funke is not related to the Funk & Wagnalls reference books. The Funk & Wagnalls Company is defunct.
"Look that up in your Funk & Wagnalls" was a regular tag line on Rowen and Martin's Laugh-in in the late 1960s.
Maybe I'll start referring to Google as Funk & Wagnalls. "Hold on, I'm not sure, lemme Funk & Wagnalls that."
Deleted userJanuary 06, 2024 at 23:56#8697950 likes
Reply to 180 Proof To say that 'spirit' comes from Latin is analogous to saying someone comes from their great-grandparents instead of their parents.
I adress this linguistical fallacy here and here and here.
The word 'spirit' comes from Old French espirt (modern French esprit) or its variants esperit, esperite, esperith, espirit. The word in Middle English could be spelled spirit(t)e, spirid, spiright and many other ways. It does not come from Latin any more than it comes from Proto-Indo-European or from the proto-proto-primo-language that we spoke as Homo habilis.
But it gets worse.
Spiritus does not mean 'to breath', because to breath is a verb and spiritus is not, spiritus is a noun. To breath would be spir?. Spiritus already had the meaning that, say, Spanish espíritu has today — of a soul, ghost, mind or the like. It is true that the original meaning was breath (noun), and the connection between breath and ghost was likely borrowed/inspired by the typically Eastern Mediterranean trope that we see realised in the Hebrew "ruah".
Regardless, the word spirit does not come to English with the meaning of breath, as that meaning had already died off by the time England was conquered by the French. So even if we absurdly say that English "spirit" comes from Latin spiritus (breath), that would be wrong, because it would come from Latin spiritus (soul) instead.
All in all, in a few words Sagan made several mistakes.
I hope this is copacetic to talk about, as it's legal where I live. I rarely smoke marijauana, but last night I smoked a fat joint and let me tell you, I've heard of people describing psychedelic effects from weed but had never experienced it myself...until last night. Yeehaw.
With it lacking any verifiable etymology, I often interpret “copacetic” phonetically to mean that when one is ascetically coping with things, one is keeping things copacetic. Hence, in this speculated upon sense of the word, its meaning can validly range from “acceptable” to “excellent”. I thereby second that the term’s usage to mean “acceptable” works perfectly well in the sentence "this is copacetic to talk about" ... this via some measure of creative interpretation.
Yes, all this being playfully, just as much as sincerely, expressed. Expressed in a “sincerplaytive” manner, if you will. (No weed was involved in the tentative coinage of this term).
Reply to Deleted user If you say so ... Carl Sagan's take on "spirit" (from spiritus (breath), from spiro (to breathe)) makes perfect sense to me given my six years of parochial school Latin as well as readings in cultural anthropology and comparative religion.
The fallacy is in suggesting that etymology is evidence of a word's meaning.
Isn't etymology evidence of a word's previous meanings via which its current meaning has in large part come to be?
Which I find directly speaks to @Deleted user's affirmation that the English word "spirit" does not mean "breath" - this irrespective of its ultimate Latin etymology (here ignoring Proto-Indo-European roots, etc.), but due to its etymology of Old French meaning, via which the word was assimilated into what is now the modern English lexicon.
Isn't etymology evidence of a word's previous meanings via which its current meaning has in large part come to be?
The etymology cannot trump use for determination of meaning.
Here are a number of examples: https://www.thoughtco.com/etymological-fallacy-words-1690613
I'm not suggesting etymology as a field isn't useful for a variety of purposes. I'm just saying you can't identify what I mean in 2024 by referencing the ancient usages of the word. You need to look at current usages only.
That is, if the ancient Romans spoke of "spirit" as meaning breath, but I mean it is my soul, and that is how we all use it, then that is what it means. If you should insist breath = soul because it's the same word and meaning affixes to a word, I'd say you are committing the etymology fallacy. You can't derive meaning from someone else's use.
I had a French guy who kept using the word "pretend" to descibe what i was claiming, saying things like "you pretend you believe this, " which was annoying until I realized he meant I was claiming it (pretendre, French for "to claim"). Same Latin root in English and French,
but different meanings. It would have been the etymology fallacy for me to tell him when he says pretendre in French that he means "pretend" even when he means "claims."
That is, if the ancient Romans spoke of "spirit" as meaning breath, but I mean it is my soul, and that is how we all use it, then that is what it means.
I think that the Romans used it as more than just the physical act. It was meant as the breathe of life, the essence of the being.
Wikipedia:Pneuma (??????) is an ancient Greek word for "breath", and in a religious context for "spirit" or "soul".[1][2] It has various technical meanings for medical writers and philosophers of classical antiquity, particularly in regard to physiology, and is also used in Greek translations of ruach ??? in the Hebrew Bible, and in the Greek New Testament.
In classical philosophy, it is distinguishable from psyche (????), which originally meant "breath of life", but is regularly translated as "spirit" or most often "soul".[3]
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 05:41#8698650 likes
Interesting question -- why did medicine go with Greek instead of Latin?
Latin would be the language of choice for a lot of theological writing, given that the early church (like, 300 c.e. and following) was romanized even as the Roman Empire was being Christianized. Latin is or was the official language of the RC Church. However, given that the oldest surviving copy of the Hebrew Bible is in Greek (the Septuagint--right? @Hanover), and the early New Testament was written in Koine Greek, a lot of theological terms like kerygma (proclamation) are Greek. Some protestant theologians use Greek terms more than Latin terms.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 08:21#8698710 likes
However, given that the oldest surviving copy of the Hebrew Bible is in Greek (the Septuagint--right? Hanover),
Yes. I also heard of this. The oldest surviving copy of the Hebrew Bible is actually in Greek. I also learned last year that some authors and historians argue that Jesus (of Nazareth) spoke both Aramaic and Greek, but not Latin.
In addition, The Gospel of Luke which tells of the origins, birth, and death of Jesus is written in Greek.
His name is also Greek (I?sous) which it is a rendering of the Hebrew (Yeshua).
I am starting to think if Latin was a language for the elite group of the Roman Empire in the social context when Jesus was alive. While Greek was the common language among the people. This situation switched with the coming years and the presence of the vast Roman Empire in both Europe and Asia.
To say that 'spirit' comes from Latin is analogous to saying someone comes from their great-grandparents instead of their parents.
I don't think so. It's analogous to saying that someone is descended from Arthur, Ethel, William, and Margaret rather than Edith, Timur, Mathilda and Gary---a particular set of grandparents rather than another set of grandparents.
It's not a fallacy to say that spirit is from Latin, because the fact that it comes mediately from Latin through French is compatible with it. "Comes from" can be used in two ways: (1) descended from via other intervening languages, i.e., indirectly; or (2) meaning a loanword, taken more or less directly from the language in question (Latin).
I come from my grandparents and my parents.
You're right to point out the difference, but you put it too strongly.
Interesting question -- why did medicine go with Greek instead of Latin?
Here is an interesting question: could it be the case that your question is not actually an interesting question? Maybe it just happened that way, for no enlightening reason. Maybe there is no single cause. I reckon most of language is like this, and that folk etymology and folk linguistics fill the gap in the way that conspiracy therories do in politics and history: we want to make sense of the world, to find reasons for everything.
Just a thought.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 09:47#8698840 likes
If you say so ... Carl Sagan's take on "spirit" (from spiritus (breath), from spiro (to breathe)) makes perfect sense to me given my six years of parochial school Latin as well as readings in cultural anthropology and comparative religion.
I don't think you care, but. If perhaps that is true in English, in other languages it is not. Meaning is not just established by use, but by system more than anything, and by authority just as much as use — sometimes authority trumps use, other times use trumps authority, history will decide. Etymology and analogy also establish use sometimes.
Ah, so many replies. Perhaps I should have clogged up the quote thread instead of kindly posting it here. :sparkle:
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 10:05#8698880 likes
I don't think so. It's analogous to saying that someone is descended from Arthur, Ethel, William, and Margaret rather than Edith, Timur, Mathilda and Gary---a particular set of grandparents rather than another set of grandparents.
That would be the case if we were talking about a hybrid such as perinatal, where we say it comes from Greek or from Latin when in fact it comes from both.
Latin however does not figure in English "spirit" any more than Old Latin or Proto-Indo-European does, as I mentioned in the OC.
You're right to point out the difference, but you put it too strongly.
I don't think so. I put it so because it does not come from Latin. Why didn't Sagan say it comes from Proto-Indo-European speys- instead? It is just as fair as saying it comes from Latin. There is nothing Latin about English, French was the language of culture in England for 300 years, not Latin.
Inb4: Roman Britain.
English did not exist during Roman times. That was the ancestors of the Welsh.
Here is an interesting question: could it be the case that your question is not actually an interesting question? Maybe it just happened that way, for no enlightening reason. Maybe there is no single cause.
I partially disagree with you, Jamal. I think every language has both reason and cause. It doesn't pop up spontaneously. When we use knowledge, we try to give it a reason. Language supports this because it works as a tool to understand things.
On the other hand, I agree with you that maybe it is not so important to know the etymology of the word 'pneumonia' but the cause of this disease and its solution. Yet, if we had never labeled 'pneumonia', maybe we had never identified it.
Otherwise, without a comprehensive language, everything could be messy or chaotic. Maybe nobody cares about naming a territory Spain or Leicester, but we have to say something. We can't say: last summer I was in *****
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 10:50#8699020 likes
I am not sure what you mean by 'sort out'; in any case I would be corteous and leave that to a Greek instead of talking about their language when I am not from that culture — a courtesy that some peoples don't seem to be able to practice.
Isn't etymology evidence of a word's previous meanings via which its current meaning has in large part come to be?
It has to be. Not only that, but, at least in some languages, etymology keeps coming back over and over.
In Italian the word spirare exists, perhaps an Italian might notice the metaphor between the verb spirare and their word spìrito, as the ppp of spirare is spirato. Spanish and Portuguese on the other hand likely don't have the same privilege in this case, as their ppp would be espirado (an uncommon word already), not so clearly related to espírito/espíritu. But Portuguese has the privilege of knowing where comestível (that can be eaten) comes from, as they say comer for to eat, while Italian commestibile does not make as much sense as the standard word is mangiare instead, as a counter example.
Very relevant, and a strike against the stench of linguistic relativism:
Quintilian:Sermo constat ratione vel vetustate, auctoritate, consuetudine. Rationem praestat praecipue analogia, nonnunquam et etymologia. Vetera majestas quaedam et, ut sic dixerim, religio commendat.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 11:03#8699050 likes
Spanish and Portuguese on the other hand likely don't have the same privilege in this case, as their ppp would be espirado (an uncommon word already), not so clearly related to espírito/espíritu.
It is not related, indeed. I don't know in Portuguese, but in Spanish, 'expirado' means when a deadline is gone. I studied law and the use of the word is very common. I think I have read it more than 'espíritu', because the latter is only used for spooky contexts.
Reply to javi2541997 Well Javi, what you say does not seem to be addressing what I said in a specific-enough way. For example, I said there might not be a single cause for the adoption of Greek in medicine and you say, "I think every language has both reason and cause. It doesn't pop up spontaneously."
To which I say, I didn't say that changes do or do not happen spontaneously or that there are no causes of change.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 12:11#8699190 likes
I think either you misunderstood me, or else you're obsessed.
Nobody brought up obsession, but I think you are the one who is obsessed with saying English words come from Latin, not me who is obsessed with saying the truth.
It does not come from Latin, it comes from French, there is no "through" as if French — the European language of culture and the reason English exists — is a tunnel. I have addressed that fallacy several times ¯\_(?)_/¯
Interesting question -- why did medicine go with Greek instead of Latin?
I actually think this is a very interesting question. Possibly one of the most interesting of our time. What are you trying to hide from us, @Jamal? :smile:
Could it have been a rebellion against the Church (silly to take seriously now but they were in fact the de facto ruling party of the entire civilized world at one point)? A love story for one Greek woman that was lost to the sands of time? An economic endeavor, no doubt... modern man can only speculate at the lost legends and true tales of those who came before, who, in most ways were a lot like us, not that long ago...
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 12:14#8699210 likes
The two words are related, as they share the same root. I said they are not clearly related, as in, Iberian-Latin speakers cannot deduce they're cognates.
I would be corteous and leave that to a Greek instead of talking about their language when I am not from that culture — a courtesy that some peoples don't seem to be able to practice.
Yeah, it is apparent how important that principle is to you.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 12:18#8699240 likes
Reply to Jamal I beg your pardon then, because I didn't follow your post enough and that's why my answer hasn't addressed what you said. I understood something different, but now I guess I see what you mean clearly.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 12:18#8699250 likes
Yeah, it is apparent how important that principle is to you.
Obviously you are referring to me saying English is not Latin, but French :^)
I do attend to my principle. I just don't extend the courtesy back when people want to defame my culture by claiming it is directly related to English when it is not. The Greeks respect me, I respect them. If X does not respect me, I don't respect back. Any reasonable person would understand my posture.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 12:19#8699260 likes
No, they aren't. At least in Spanish. Did you read my example?
You think your example is germaine to the topic, while I don't see how the meaning of expirar or you being in law connects to the topic.
Espíritu and espirar (different word from expirar even if homophonous) share the same root, therefore they are related, as in cognates — whether they are semantically related is up to opinion. Even espíritu and expirar are cognates too.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 12:28#8699310 likes
Nobody brought up obsession, but I think you are the one who is obsessed with saying English words come from Latin, not me who is obsessed with saying the truth.
It does not come from Latin, it comes from French, there is no "through" as if French — the European language of culture and the reason English exists — is a tunnel. I have addressed that fallacy several times ¯\_(?)_/¯
Your argument is comically absurd, and there is likely no substantial disagreement between us, so I’ll leave it there.
I beg your pardon then, because I didn't follow your post enough and that's why my answer hasn't addressed what you said. I understood something different, but now I guess I see what you mean clearly.
To be honest, my response to you was probably too pedantic. I’m used to disagreeing with everything you say about language, so it was automatic. :grin:
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 13:01#8699360 likes
universenessJanuary 07, 2024 at 14:14#8699530 likes
Language is normally influenced by whichever mob has invaded/settled a land mass, in all of history. If all human ancestors came from Africa then some early African tribal language is probably what all others likely came from. England was mostly invaded by Saxons, Angles, Vikings, so I would assume that the biggest influences on the English language was a mix of early Germanic and Scandinavian languages, obviously, the Romans are in there as well along with the French. All languages are mongrel, just like all people are mongrels. No such an existent as a 'pure blood,' or a 'pure language.'
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 07, 2024 at 14:47#8699580 likes
Ancient nterpretation used the text as a launching point to write a story to create a message. It was a vehicle used by the religious leaders to offer moral guidance. What the sages say is meant by the text is based upon what ideas they thought advancing, not upon what actually in a interpretive sense it said.
Language is fundamentally ambiguous. And, it is a mistake to proceed from the ambiguities of today in an attempt to understand the ambiguities of ancient days, because there is a medium of changing languages and translation in between. Therefore we must respect as probable, that the ambiguities of ancient times were completely different, and even a different type of ambiguity, from the ambiguities of today, and look for those ambiguities by referencing ancient work.
That is why it is necessary to pay close attention to ancient stories, and how they were told at that time, if we want to understand the nature of ambiguity and how it evolves over time. The stories help to explain the way that things were understood, which was completely different from the way that we understand things by today's conventions. This difference in the way that things were understood marks a significant difference in the form of the ambiguity inherent within the language.
Ambiguity in general is the result of the over-usage of terms due to a need to expand the existing language. This makes the same word get used in many different ways for the sake of simplicity. Growth and evolution of the human mind in past times is revealed by the growth of ambiguity. So for a basic example, in modern particle physics where we've recently had substantial growth of conceptual structure, we see terms like colour, flavour, and spin, which are existing words used in completely new ways.
I am starting to think if Latin was a language for the elite group of the Roman Empire in the social context when Jesus was alive. While Greek was the common language among the people. This situation switched with the coming years and the presence of the vast Roman Empire in both Europe and Asia.
The elite in the Roman Empire didn't just speak Latin, they spoke and wrote 'educated' Latin. After the Empire established a western and eastern division, the eastern division (located in Byzantium ----> Constantinople ----> Istanbul) spoke Greek. A lot of Greek slaves were imported into the western empire, where they served as tutors, teachers, etc. Some Romans spoke both Greek and Latin.
What the hoi poloi (a Greek word cooked up in the 17th century to refer to the masses) spoke in the empire would be pretty varied, just guessing. They're native languages, a mix of native and Latin or Greek language.
Koine Greek, in which the New Testament was received by the hoi polloi, was very much a common tongue. It was simpler than classical Greek. Why not Latin? I'm guessing that the New Testament editors were Greek speaking and living in the eastern end of the Mediterranean basin. Quoting javi2541997
Paradoxically, although most words in medical vocabulary come from Greek, 'medicine' itself comes from Latin. Medicus, meaning "a physician"
Paradoxically, although most words in medical vocabulary come from Greek, 'medicine' itself comes from Latin. Medicus, meaning "a physician"
Paradox, indeed. Like "France" is derived from the Franks who were Germans. No wonder the French are bitter and resentful, producing depressing philosophers.
So, where did "Hispania" come from? What aren't you speaking "Iberian" or Lusitanic? There were several Germanic tribes that took over Iberia; why didn't you all end up with a Germanic name/language? Deutschland uber alles.
I am not sure what you mean by 'sort out'; in any case I would be corteous and leave that to a Greek instead of talking about their language when I am not from that culture — a courtesy that some peoples don't seem to be able to practice.
Very respectful, but classical Greek is by now fair game. Greece became a Roman province in the 1st/2nd century BC. I referenced you because you are knowledgeable about stuff like this.
Very respectful, but classical Greek is by now fair game. Greece became a Roman province in the 1st/2nd century BC. I referenced you because you are knowledgeable about stuff like this
I very much doubt you’ve read Plato, or really any philosophy at all, which again makes me wonder what the hell you're doing here, aside from evangelism.
It’s been bothering me so I’d like to correct myself. It’s not really about what you’ve read so much as what you're interested in. On top of expressing doubt that you’d read Plato—despite passing judgement on his work—I should have said that you’ve shown no interest in philosophy generally.
But there’s a wide spectrum of interest among the membership here and plenty of the members obviously have no real interest in philosophy, so it’s not like I’m gonna start banning people for it.
Reply to OutlanderReply to Jamal In order for 15th - 16th century physicians (a name derived from Greek) to deploy Greek terms, they had to at least read Greek. My guess is that they used Greek for exclusive and excluding purposes. Body parts and diseases are our fiefdom, and in order to discourage people educated in Latin out of our fiefdom, we'll guard the realm with obscure Greek terminology.
Special jargons, like legalese, medical writing, philosophy, etc. either pose comprehension barriers or they just smell bad.
Special jargons, like legalese, medical writing, philosophy, etc. either pose comprehension barriers or they just smell bad.
They also ease communication within the group.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 19:50#8700480 likes
Reply to BC Right, but I don't understand what you mean by sort out. ?????? in Ancient Greek also has this same semantic dichotomy with 'breath'/'wind' being the original meaning and 'spirit' being a metaphorical meaning, only that ?????? has almost lost the meaning of 'breath'/'wind' keeping it only in reference to the daseia, while Latin lost it completely, at least according to the Greek dictionary I use — I am not a fluent speaker of Greek. Whether Greek adopted that metaphor from other eastern cultures or developed it independently on its on, I do not know, if I had to bet my money on either hypotheses, I would do it on the former, but only if I had to bet.
Your argument is comically absurd, and there is likely no substantial disagreement between us, so I’ll leave it there.
The feeling is mutual. Agree to disagree.
Reply to javi2541997 I am not sure what you are getting at with false friends (heterosemántico), but the links you provide all prove my point, expirar and espirar and espíritu are all cognates, as are espiritual, espiritar, conspirar, respirar, inspirar, aspirar, etc. Any Spanish linguist will tell you so.
I have had this experience with Iberian people many years ago, you seem to think that cognate means homosemántico when it does not. Cognate means from the same root, which you can promptly verify in the examples I brought up.
They're native languages, a mix of native and Latin or Greek language.
Though it would be fascinating, there is no evidence (that I have seen) of a creole between Greek and Latin. The closest we get is south Aromanian borrowing many Greek elements — but so did Italian, but in a different fashion I imagine, I don't know any Aromanian as it is not even codified.
javi2541997January 07, 2024 at 20:04#8700640 likes
So, where did "Hispania" come from? What aren't you speaking "Iberian" or Lusitanic? There were several Germanic tribes that took over Iberia; why didn't you all end up with a Germanic name/language?
We were very close to having an Arabic language. Well, a big part of Andalusia is clearly influenced by our past of the Nasrid dynasty. Most of the cities of this region are influenced by Arabic roots. For example: Almería, Granada or Málaga. And we have Arabic words in our language: Almohada (pillow), Berenjena (eggplant), Azúcar (sugar), Almudena (a female name), etc. It is obvious that the influence of the Muslim dynasty was huge, although our ancestors never developed a true Arabic language. Well, a lot of folks passed through the Iberian Peninsula and my language is a mix of them: Greek, Latin, Arabic, Germanic, etc.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 20:05#8700660 likes
I have had this experience with Iberian people many years ago, you seem to think that cognate means homosemántico when it does not. Cognate means from the same root, which you can promptly verify in the examples I brought up.
But my example proves precisely the opposite. Espíritu y Expirar have a different root, mate. Lionino... Are you trying to troll me again?
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 20:11#8700700 likes
Espíritu comes from the Latin spiritus, expirar comes from the Latin exspirare. Both those words clearly share the root spir-. The origin of exspiro is exactly the base verb spiro, which is where Spanish espiro comes from. The origin of spiritus is also the verb spiro, which is why spiritus means breath, as spiro is 'I breath'.
And I have never trolled you once. I do like a good old trolling but I do not do it here as a rule.
Not even close! They do not share the same root. I told you Old Castilian (or Vulgar Latin) holds a lot of 'false friend' words. You read espíritu and expirar, and you quickly think they mean the same and share the same root. Espíritu comes from the Latin 'Spiritus' (do you agree here at least?) and means: Immaterial being. But Expirar comes from the Latin Expirare, and means: When a period of time is gone./ a period of time is running out': "The deadline expires on November 25" It should not be confused with exhaling ('expelling the inhaled air'; ? exhaling). https://www.rae.es/dpd/expirar
They do not have a common root!
You are confusing spiro with expirar...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expirare
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 20:33#8700800 likes
Have you ever watched nature documentaries where juvenile male chimpanzees try to establish social dominance?
I would rather not be analogised with a chimp. I also would rather not be spoken to in the third person.
Not that I ever tried to "establish dominance", otherwise I would be more berating. I saw a comment that indirectly related to me and I politely chimed in, I posted the (requested) reply here so I would not clog up the original thread, and then I was dogpilled by some 5 different people, who did not show basic background info on the topic. I come here to discuss philosophy, not to make friends or enemies.
It is strange to me that sometimes I have to explain such things here.
Right, because they are homophonous but have different meanings, it does not mean they are not cognates, those are all different concepts.
Well, yes. It is obvious that 'Espíritu' and 'Expirar' are somehow cognate or blood relative. More than Cuadrado o Púrpura, for sure. But remember! A stepmother or stepfather is not your real father or mama even though they can love you so much. I know you are very clever and you understand this hyperbole.
I would rather not be analogised with a chimp. I also would rather not be spoken to in the third person.
Something I've noticed about myself, is that I respect people when they've earned my respect. Now that's not necessarily hard to do for most people. I respect a whole lot of people on this forum and I haven't even been posting here a year. However, I'm not particularly interested in your desire to be treated with respect that you haven't earned.
Deleted userJanuary 07, 2024 at 21:20#8700970 likes
Reply to wonderer1 I don't care about the personal beliefs you just made up to reply to me. Every single post you have ever made in some relation to me is useless and obnoxious. You talk about imposing social dominance but you are the one who makes arrogant posts, prime example, while I am overly corteous — obviously you would not try these antics with me in real life.
Evidently you have a dislike towards me, prompted by something that I said but you could not get out of your chest; perhaps this is some ploy where you think you will trigger me into saying something ban-worthy, but my ever-expansive Galactus brain is too cognisant for such a pea-brain stratagem.
This is the very last post I ever write in reply to you. Do not engage with me anymore. All you will do is make me go through the effort of blocking you — maybe that will be something that gives you petty satisfaction.
Reply to Deleted user It has been a long time since I took classics courses, and memory fades, but as I recollect, "pneuma" was an important concept in classical religion and philosophy
"Spirit" and "breath" are often combined to give 'spirit' a tangible quality.
Reply to Deleted user You do seem quick to take offense, and respond to real or imagined offenses very vigorously if not always appropriately. For instance, several days ago we exchanged this in the Shoutbox:
Given your "passing, fleeting, even" interest in history, how did you go about determining that there was no evidence for what Goebbels did or did not say?
— BC
The way I determined there is no evidence is because there is no evidence anywhere. And the exact quote is found in a 1972 book and not attributed to Goebbels. Skimming through the rest of your comment, you are clearly a psychologically unwell person. I advise seeking help.
From this I took a fairly negative impression of you. I have since found your posts better than my original impression, but you are very snippy which results in snippy responses to you.
I might be unwell (I don't feel unwell) but the APA has not determined that quoting Dorothy Parker is a sign of psychological unwellness.
Projection or transference. Some posters here have been nasty to me, and yet I am not being obnoxious in every interaction we have after. Just because I voice my disagreements with courage instead of hiding behind snark it does not mean I am taking offense.
And I don't care enough to defend myself against most of these accusations. We are all online strangers.
but you are very snippy which results in snippy responses to you
Or maybe the order is the other way around. People get butthurt at me even when I don't address them directly, as the spiritus post and the Goebbels posts I made prove.
The reason why I called you crazy with euphemism is because I shared a historical curiosity (shoutbox scholarship as Hanover says) here and you question me about "how do you know there is no evidence", then you go on a rant about people I don't know about and Donald Trump.
That by itself is almost enough to call someone crazy, but at the time I also thought you were the same person as someone who claimed in some other thread that the world was ending and then went on another rant about Donald Trump.
I really don't care about big bad orange man.
In retrospect, I know exactly why those two posts created so much butthurt by the way.
Remind me why we're trying to figure out the origins of "spirit"? Is it because we want to know how it evolved in use from the first caveman or are we trying to say it means what it meant?
If the forner, carry on in your exploration.
If the latter, I OBJECT!
The word geist is more interesting to me anyway, and I believe it's been discussed here at the Shoutbox some time ago. I'll have to poke and prod around the annals at the Shoutbox to confirm that though.
This post shall usher in the usage "at the Shoutbox" as opposed to "in the Shoutbox." It is classier and more appropriate. And with this statement, it is henceforth so.
Another word to explore other than geist would be logos. Because in the beginning, as John says, that's all there was. Whatever does that mean?
Bart Ehrman:During his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God.
You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things. ...
"John" is more 'theological' than the other three gospels. Probably the theological content (such as, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.") was back-written by an editor who had had time to formulate an understanding of who and what Jesus was. It seems extremely unlikely that any of Jesus' disciples would have thought, written, or said anything like "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." That's theology talk.
Terry Gross is a great interviewer. The link above has a play button to hear the whole interview.
The endogenous cannabinoid system—named for the plant that led to its discovery—is one of the most important physiologic systems involved in establishing and maintaining human health. Endocannabinoids and their receptors are found throughout the body: in the brain, organs, connective tissues, glands, and immune cells. With its complex actions in our immune system, nervous system, and virtually all of the body’s organs, the endocannabinoids are literally a bridge between body and mind. By understanding this system, we begin to see a mechanism that could connect brain activity and states of physical health and disease.
Reply to BC I've read some of Ehrman's books. He does a good job breaking down the inconsistencies in the various gospels. He started seminary as a fundamentalist, but ended up an atheist, but claims his change of heart has nothing to do with the biblical inconsistencies, but with his inability to arrive at an acceptable response to the theodicy question.
For that I find him credible, unlike many atheists.
I have no problem with the atheist position if it's based upon a fundamental theistic rejection, but the ones who base it upon weaknesses in the written record make the error of equating theism with scripture.
For that I find him credible, unlike many atheists.
What is your belief? No guff, or argumentation to come - Just ascertaining everyone's positions as it's often hard to grok from the exchanges i observe.
I have no problem with the atheist position if it's based upon a fundamental theistic rejection, but the ones who base it upon weaknesses in the written record make the error of equating theism with scripture.
I think that's reasonable. Problem is too many public atheists have focused so much on the low hanging fruit of literalism that they have become "fundie busters" with minimal or no philosophical nuance.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 10:40#8702640 likes
Reply to Jamal
I have always tried to be as honest as I can be with TPF members, including yourself.
Sometimes I think you are a very fair and well balanced individual who is a good caretaker/owner of TPF. At other times, my opinion falls rather short of that. You started your latest post to me with: Quoting Jamal
It’s been bothering me so I’d like to correct myself
Such a sentence put's you back up in my estimation.
I certainly am a philosophy neophyte but I learn quickly.
So, I am fundamentally science based but I have also been interested in philosophy for a while now and I think that the two descriptions of philosophy I posted are both valid and important. I think its unfortunate that you posted that number 2, below,
[i]1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
2. A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour.[/i]
You're correct that I have not read Plato's writings directly but by proxy, I almost have. I have heard about Plato words, reported to me since I was a teenager, as part of conversations and references to him and his musings, used by many sources over the years. He remains, for me, a very ancient source whose base concepts such as platonic forms are based on the type of esoteric thinking that I see little value in, and I further think that it is quite irrational to base any sociopolitical worldviews and actual policies, on the musings of someone as irrational and theistic as Plato.
IMO, if this site becomes restricted to discussion of the nuances and flex, available within the purely academic discipline as described in description 1 above, then this will become a more and more irrelevant site and imo, my recent comment to @unenlightenedof: "If each of us cannot pursue that which matters most to us then having a so-called 'philosophy of life' is moot and imo, academic philosophy is merely the study of a pointless, repetitive, boring series of echos, used and abused since we came out of the wilds." gains more credibility.
To try to exemplify and explain some of my attempts to gain ground in the more 'orthodox' philosophical content of my posts, I pay attention to the postings of those TPF members who I consider far more deserving of being credited with having a strong grounding in academic/historical/contemporary philosophy. So I feel I am now more able to make such posts, as a recent one to @180 Proofhere. A totally academic philosophical question imo.
I also do read more academic philosophy now, than I have done before, even going as far as buying a wee book called, 'The Little book of philosophy,' by Rachel Poulton, which I am enjoying.
If, at some point, you and/or your mod team decide that TPF would be better off, without my contributions then that will not be a major event for anyone concerned. We will all take at least .... let's say .... 10 minutes at most, to 'move on.' For some, I am sure it will be closer to 10 nanoseconds. You will not be surprised that my own personal response will be a little disappointment, which will quickly turn to 'their loss.' At least you will make little 'Javi' happy along with the small TPF theist/theosophist contingent, and also those who are more gentle towards those with theist/theosophist leanings, compared to me. Those who seem to ignore the fact that the vast majority of theists/theosophists are very nasty indeed towards atheists or any form of apostasy. You are often a member of that group, imo.
I am a member of many on site forums. Most of my current posts are on TPF but I also post regularly on quora and threads and I am reading and may join such sites as the philosophy stack exchange.
Gaining input from a wide variety of sources helps a person become better informed, yes?
You have said in the past, that I seem to 'bring out the worst in you.' That's not really my problem, is it? Perhaps you also don't like the thought that I also might challenge you enough, to also bring out some of the best of you.
It’s a pretty minimal requirement to read a philosopher’s work before judging it. If you’re honest with yourself I think you’ll admit that. You join a philosophy forum and declare that Matt Dillahunty has done more for humanity than Plato, while never having read Plato and having decided he’s not worth reading. I mean, do you expect to get away with that here without severe criticism or mockery?
The rest of your post is rhetoric that falls pretty flat, in my opinion.
unenlightenedJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:01#8702740 likes
my recent comment to unenlightened of:
"If each of us cannot pursue that which matters most to us then having a so-called 'philosophy of life' is moot and imo, academic philosophy is merely the study of a pointless, repetitive, boring series of echos, used and abused since we came out of the wilds." gains more credibility.
That is a philosophy of life, and therefore moot, But my philosophy of life is that we have to all live on the same planet and therefore our lives interact and so do our philosophies. And what you think is pointless and moot and do not engage with is liable to come back and bite you because people live their philosophies just as you do. If the folk up-river from you do not treat their sewage before discharging it into the river, your bit of river gets contaminated. So we need to talk about limits to freedom, and society, and governance, and how to live together without fighting all the time and poisoning the water supply even if these things don't matter to some, because they live furthest upstream.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:10#8702750 likes
Reply to Jamal
I don't understand your angle of approach here. I repeat my opinion that Matt Dillahunty's work on trying to combat pernicious theism is more important than anything Plato ever did or said, or if you prefer, it should be, imo. I am very happy to defend that proposal. I love your 'do you expect to get away with that' challenge. You will not be surprised by my 'bring it on' response. What is your best shot, regarding what Plato offered that is more important than what Matt or someone like Carl Sagan offered?
If the rest of my post to you 'fell pretty flat,' then that's ok. You are as I am, no more than a single voice.
I value individual opinions but I also favour the 'opinions are like arseholes, every human has at least one,' style of comment.
unenlightenedJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:20#8702760 likes
I repeat my opinion that Matt Dillahunty's work on trying to combat pernicious theism is more important than anything Plato ever did or said, or if you prefer, it should be, imo.
If the folk up-river from you do not treat their sewage before discharging it into the river, your bit of river gets contaminated. So we need to talk about limits to freedom, and society, and governance, and how to live together without fighting all the time and poisoning the water supply even if these things don't matter to some, because they live furthest upstream.
Sure, I broadly agree. Have you never read any of my declarations that I am a democratic socialist and a secular humanist etc?
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:22#8702780 likes
Great stuff! Tell us more about your arseholes, so we can kiss them all.
Sure, but you would first need to stop trying to kiss your own arsehole.
I will answer any question you want to ask me.
unenlightenedJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:29#8702790 likes
Reply to universeness Nah mate. You've already made it clear you only care about your own opinions; and you clearly think I'm the same, so I have no further questions.
don't understand your angle of approach here. I repeat my opinion that Matt Dillahunty's work on trying to combat pernicious theism is more important than anything Plato ever did or said, or if you prefer, it should be, imo.
This comment barely meets the requirements for posting at the Shoutbox even though we have none.
I have actually read every book Matt Dillahunty has written (currently zero), and would expect that even with those credentials, he'd be embarrassed to see who his supporters are.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:35#8702810 likes
I have actually read every book Matt Dillahunty has written (currently zero), and would expect that even with those credentials, he'd be embarrassed to see who his supporters are.
:lol: Have you also read every book Jesus wrote? or how about all the ones Hanover has written?
How about all the books Socrates wrote?, I could continue into a long list. Your point seems to be utterly pointless.
Why don't you ask Matt about his opinions of his supporters, instead of being arrogant enough to think you have a clue as to what they might be.
I wonder how embarrassed Jesus would be regarding his supporters (if he ever existed.) additional: Oh, I forgot to ask, have you read all the books the god you believe in, personally wrote? :halo:
unenlightenedJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:41#8702830 likes
I keep forgetting, literalists cannot understand sarcasm or irony. And it's so delicious and nourishing. :sad:
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:44#8702850 likes
Reply to unenlightened
Enjoy your feast son, not so sure it is nourishing you, your typings do not suggest to me that you are so well nourished. But this tennis style back and forth is fun, if completely fruitless.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 08, 2024 at 12:56#8702880 likes
The word geist is more interesting to me anyway, and I believe it's been discussed here at the Shoutbox some time ago. I'll have to poke and prod around the annals at the Shoutbox to confirm that though.
I think there are some tools available to make this easy for you. Don't ask me how to use them, I've just seen them used. Technology is nothing but magic to me. Go ahead, pull a rabbit outta yer hat.
javi2541997January 08, 2024 at 13:17#8702930 likes
At least you will make little 'Javi' happy along with the small TPF theist/theosophist contingent, and also those who are more gentle towards those with theist/theosophist leanings, compared to me.
I enjoy reading Kazantzakis and these folks consider me a theist. Oh Jesus!
By the way, I personally thought that you criticized me for being obsessed with Bushido culture. I don't know if this is related to the topic of theism, because there are different cultural approaches. With all the pain in my heart, I have to agree with you. Bushido is not possible to achieve in Western society, and it has been completely abandoned in Japan. Due to the complexity of both politics and economics, it is impossible to keep encouraging people thanks to 'honor' and 'loyalty' because it has zero economic value.
In addition, I suffered discrimination by a group of Japanese last October because of being from Spain, and they doubted my suitability for learning Japanese at all. I am no longer interested in Japan since then... but I do not regret what I have learned until now.
I will always think that Mishima is very important to literature, and I understand why he killed himself due to the decline of real Japan. I don't have any problem with you. I am not even a moderator.
But I see that other mates just checked how you are, and maybe they understand me now why I complained about your hate speech in some areas.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 13:39#8702970 likes
Reply to javi2541997
Well, I do hate fascists, bigots, the nefarious rich etc. When I explain why, then I am sure that any supporters they have, will accuse me of making a 'hate speech.' I have no serious evidence that you are a supporter of fascists, bigots and/or the nefarious rich, apart from your rather bizarre attraction to the principles of bushido as it manifest in the Japanese military of WW 2.
You certainly have had a problem with me and you have declared such quite colourfully, imo, on occasion. We started off enjoying a good, positive relationship, but you seemed to become quite irrational, anytime I suggested that the conquistadors were utterly vile. That was not an attack on the Spanish people. If I was alive at the time and held the political views I hold, I could easily have joined the Scots contingent who fought and gave their lives to try to help the Spanish people defeat that Fascist pig Franco that so damaged that country.
If you no longer hold the same disdain against me as you professed then I will also step back in kind but my very low opinion of the conquistadors and the Japanese military of WW 2 remains as it was.
javi2541997January 08, 2024 at 14:07#8703000 likes
' I have no serious evidence that you are a supporter of fascists, bigots and/or the nefarious rich, apart from your rather bizarre attraction to the principles of bushido as it manifest in the Japanese military of WW 2.
You can't accuse me of support fascism just for reading or veering towards Japanese culture. I think your reactions to my opinions have always been exaggerated.
At least you will make little 'Javi' happy along with the small TPF theist/theosophist contingent
Hey! We may be small, but we're here dammit. Proud too. And growing every day. :halo:
Meanwhile I cannot help but feel this New Year has not been off to a particularly favorable start for some here, sadly. :sad:
Look at it this way. You're here, you're alive, you made it through another year of this hectic thing we call life. Communicating with (believe it or not) like-minded, intellectual (or intellectually inclined, at least :joke: ) individuals from all corners of the globe in mere seconds at your fingertips. The philosophers of olde surely dreamed of such a reality, such realities we allow ourselves to take for granted in their everyday omnipresence, becoming monotonous as the tides and seasons themselves, if we so allow them to. I for one, refuse such a fate to permeate my understanding and capacity to appreciate that which we seldom take time out of our busy lives to ponder the sheer majesty and vast depths of accomplishment that is the progress of the human spirit. Surely, you will come to realize and appreciate this, no less than monumental, reality and state of affairs, in which we participate and engage in. If only you would extend just a tiny bit of faith, in not just your fellow man, but yourself. :sparkle:
I repeat my opinion that Matt Dillahunty's work on trying to combat pernicious theism is more important than anything Plato ever did or said ... I am very happy to defend that proposal.
:roll: :rofl:
Sorry, mate, but as a p-naturalist (i.e. anti-supernaturalist & atheist) who is also an anti-platonist, I find your ignorant statement about Plato indefensible, especially on a site primarily dedicated to (Western) philosophy. Though Plato's writings express a 'theistic form of mysticism', his dialogue Euthyphro powerfully calls 'divine command theory' into a question and thereby, inadvertantly provides compelling grounds for 'religious skepticism' which is the basis of (e.g.) M. Dillahunty's advocacy of 'secular morality over religious morality'.
Why don't you ask Matt about his opinions of his supporters, instead of being arrogant enough to think you have a clue as to what they might be.
The younger and more reckless Hanover would have given Matt a call just so I could ask him, "Hey, Matt, so I post on this website called TPF, and this guy Universeness says you're more important than Plato, but I don't think you think that, but he told me to call you, so I spent the past couple of hours on Spokeo, Linkedin, Facebook, and just random searching, and I finally found you. Discuss this for me online please so that he can know I'm right and he's wrong. Oh, and you look super cute in your pics online. My online name is @Baden. "
If only you would extend just a tiny bit of faith, in not just your fellow man, but yourself
I have a great deal of confidence in my fellow humans. We are capable of soooooooo much more than anything born of your sanctimonious valuation of 'faith.' I also have a great deal of confidence and assuredness in myself. I am an optimist. We are an infant species and we are capable of astounding progress and horrific, backwards thinking, mired in ancient bullshit. Perhaps a larger dose of secular fresh air would help your progress towards a better future for us all.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 17:29#8703640 likes
Reply to Hanover
Why am I not surprised that you would disguise your identity even more that the anonymity, TPF already gives you?
I think every scientist, currently or in the past, who is or was involved in the leading edge of their field, was and is far more important to the future of the human race than Plato ever was.
I think all those who in the past and who currently battle against pernicious theism, was and is, far more important to the future of the human species, than Plato ever was. I have no idea whether or not Matt would agree with me. If you pay the small price ($10 or above) and send him a 'superchat,' then he will most likely answer your question. His answer will have little affect on my opinion of ancients like Plato or Aristotle, but it would be interesting to ask him. So try to get back in touch with that younger and more reckless you, but try to encourage him to not hide behind fake ID's.
Trust me sir, if I knew all of your personal details and could find out exactly who you are and where you currently can be accessed, you and yours would be in absolutely no danger whatsoever, from me.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 18:00#8703780 likes
Sorry, mate, but as a p-naturalist (i.e. anti-supernaturalist & atheist) who is also an anti-platonist, I find your ignorant statement about Plato indefensible, especially on a site primarily dedicated to (Western) philosophy.
That's ok mate! As an anti-platonist and someone who knows a lot more about philosophy than I do, I accept your insistence that I am making ignorant statements about him. I disagree. His importance to Western culture is way way overblown and exaggerated imo.
his dialogue Euthyphro powerfully calls 'divine command theory' into a question and thereby, inadvertantly provides compelling grounds for 'religious skepticism' which is the basis of (e.g.) M. Dillahunty's advocacy of 'secular morality over religious morality'.
Firstly, is it not correct to say that the events depicted in the Euthyphro are unconfirmed. Perhaps Socrates said and did what was suggested, perhaps not. To me it hardly matters. 'Piety' is a ridiculous notion and should never have had any influence in any way on the sociopolitical rules/laws that any human community felt compelled to create, in the past, present or future.
As you suggest, Matt makes the more important suggestion, that all moral codes should come from a secular foundation and be 100% based on human beings talking and debating with each other about the well-being of us all. No bullshit input from any theistic influence is required. We need nothing from such notions as piety as we have the far better source of the human capacity for empathy and fairness and justice towards each other.
If you insist that some of Plato's own writings can be interpreted in support of Matt's advocacy of secular morality over religious morality, then so much the better. To me, it seems rather unimportant. We don't need anything from Plato, as the idea that secular morality is far better than morality born via fear of pissing off violent gods :rofl: was always true. It was true and was probably talked about amongst many humans, way way before Plato, was still at the gamete stage in his parents or ancestry all the way back to Africa. Compared to Newton or Einstein etc, Plato was a bit player, no more important than thousands of his like who remain unknown to us. I think someone like Hypatia(who was also a neoplatonist) or Aristarchus, did more to progress the human race than Plato did.
Reply to universeness :roll: If you say so ... I guess you need to feel you're right (which is, at best, dogmatic) much more than you need to learn and understand. Well, good luck with that, universeness.
We are an infant species and we are capable of astounding progress and horrific, backwards thinking, mired in ancient bullshit. Perhaps a larger dose of secular fresh air would help your progress towards a better future for us all.
Just googled Dillahunty to see who he is, and I watched a few minutes of a YouTube video with him debating Jordan Peterson. Not pretty, as you might imagine. Peterson was saying something to the effect that everyone is religious and we just don't realize it. What I think he was trying to say is that we're a social species and naturally bond with shared values and narratives.
If that's true then it seems whoever controls the narrative runs the show, regardless of the narrative being based on fact (secular fresh air) or fiction (ancient BS).
We are an infant species and we are capable of astounding progress and horrific, backwards thinking, mired in ancient bullshit. Perhaps a larger dose of secular fresh air would help your progress towards a better future for us all.
If you can't imagine it, you can't do it. What you take for granted everyday was even more of a mockery, in its time of infancy in the minds of those who sought beyond the limits of what could be proven let alone created at that particular time with that particular society (resources, both physical and intellectual), than what you cast as the same today. And yet, here we are. And here you are. As doubtful as ever.
I have no issue with you, in fact I find you a refreshing reprieve from what I can assure you is the truer, deeper, if not restrictive (in it's own peculiar way) nature of reality itself. Though, you do seem to have a certain "denseness" about you that I can easily see others would paint as less than preferable in their own minds. Downright undesirable to those perhaps a bit more strict with expectation and a bit less lenient with the idea of letting one be oneself, regardless of, not consequence necessarily, but loss of greater potential.
Though as it stands, at least from my limited online observation, you seem to be doing well, your knowledge (or lack thereof) perfectly adequate and suited for your life, standards, and means. As such, I have no need to intervene.
Though ask yourself, are you, in your limited experience as a, as you believe, wholly animalistic multi-cellular being, created solely by a haphazard environment, of no great purpose whatsoever, entirely certain the sum of your knowledge from said limited experience is completely infallible, resolute, and above all, complete? Surely not. :smile:
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 19:07#8704000 likes
Reply to 180 Proof
I don't need to feel I am correct, anymore than you do. I certainly seek to be as correct as I can be. We can all err, including you. Such observations are obvious, yes?
Peterson was saying something to the effect that everyone is religious and we just don't realize it. What I think he was trying to say is that we're a social species and naturally bond with shared values and narratives.
Maybe, but I thought Peterson was just taking up Nietzsche here. “I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar”? (Twilight of the Idols)
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 19:21#8704020 likes
Just googled Dillahunty to see who he is, and I watched a few minutes of a YouTube video with him debating Jordan Peterson.
That's an old debate but a good one. I think Peterson has been running scared from Dillahunty ever since. But I am sure Peterson would not agree with that.
If that's true then it seems whoever controls the narrative runs the show, regardless of the narrative being based on fact (secular fresh air) or fiction (ancient BS).
This is certainly true on any call-in show style format. Most of the offerings on Jimmy Snow's 'The line' are a bit like this but it's also true of groups like 'answers in genesis' or those youtube offerings put out by Kent or Eric Hovind or Ken Ham etc.
I will give a little more credit to 'The Line' however as they are going to try a new format call the 'nboss' in which the caller gets more time and more ability to present and 'steelman' their argument before the 'nboss' (who might be m dillahunty, j snow, shannon q, f valkai, d warnock etc) replies to the claims made by the caller. This sounds a bit fairer to me than the situation where the presenter can simply 'mute' or 'cut off' a caller. Although I accept that just like 'banning,' here on TPF, these features are necessary, depending on the agenda/mental state of an individual calling in.
That's an old debate but a good one. I think Peterson has been running scared from Dillahunty ever since. But I am sure Peterson would not agree with that.
He makes some extremely unfounded comments about psychedelic experiences. This was where i started to lose it with his sophistry because it's unhelpful dishonesty when you misrepresent scientific findings. I don't think Dillahunty had to do much to make JPB look awful here.
Reply to praxis You mean the comments about psychedelics? Yeah, it was really weird to see. It's even weirder that his nemesis (Harris) is actually well-versed and reasonable about psychedelics so he's had umpteen opportunities to sort that out - but just elected to continue massaging the facts. Weird.
Reply to AmadeusD I actually think Dillahunty did a good job with Peterson. Peterson is so often inscrutable or cryptic and you wonder if this is just because he is that type of academic, or is it because his views are incoherent. Dillahunty did a better job than most in chasing him about, I thought.
Reply to universeness For me an issue with philosophy is the demarcation between ideas which may be helpful to us personally and that which constitutes a more specialized knowledge of the philosophy - its history and development.
Matt Dillahunty and co are polemicists, with a smattering of philosophical knowledge. By limiting their world largely to empiricism, they simply opt to bypass most philosophical enquiry. Dillahunty had to look up who Nietzsche was one night recently when I was watching. This is a man with a limited repertoire (like many of us) and good luck to him. In the world of the YouTube skeptic that narrow focus or perspective might be apropos, but I don't think we can suggest that a philosophy site revere such a response when there is an entire universe of philosophical ideas worth exploring.
I actually think Dillahunty did a good job with Peterson. Peterson is so often inscrutable or cryptic and you wonder if this is just because he is that type of academic, or is it because his views are incoherent. Dillahunty did a better job than most in chasing him about, I thought.
Agreed - if not clear, JPB made the comments that get my back up.
What is your belief? No guff, or argumentation to come - Just ascertaining everyone's positions as it's often hard to grok from the exchanges i observe.
Maybe a Geist got into the server where TPF lives and started this rancorous (but quite interesting) exchange; or maybe the Zeitgeist itself is rancorous exchange. Perhaps it was just a game of UPROAR.
I have not listened to a minute of Matt Dillahunty, and don't plan to. I haven't read Plato cover to cover, and don't plan to (I'm too old to spare the time) -- but I have at least read some Plato and read about him. Brother Universeness, fellow socialist, fellow humanist! No one will think less of you if you allow that somebody who has been read for 2500 years might conceivably be more a more important than Matt Dillahunty.
What worries me is that whenever I see the owner and moderators piling on, it leads one to think that a hanging might be in the offing.
Jordan Peterson is at his best when he's quoting statistical data related to male and female behaviors and in describing dating (mating) behavior.
He has a religious bent that I don't pay attention to. It's not interesting and it's outside his area of expertise.
He can also cry (as in literally tears pouring down his face) about things not that important, which some may see as passion, but I see it as a bit unhinged. That along with some crazy clown looking suits, where half the jacket is black and the other red, some may see as trying to create a signature look, but I see it as a bit unhinged.
He works a strong social media presence, and that might be why I know about him, but I think it negatively impacts his credibility. Anyone who bumps into me too often must be unhinged, a bit.
That along with some crazy clown looking suits, where half the jacket is black and the other red, some may see as trying to create a signature look, but I see it as a bit unhinged.
Unhinged is a bit far, but as someone who has a closet full of three-pieces and pride myself on my style, he's a total clown in this regard. Looks utterly ridiculous and pretentious - and for someone like me, that's saying something!
He can also cry (as in literally tears pouring down his face) about things not that important, which some may see as passion, but I see it as a bit unhinged
He cries in a way I have cried, and I think I recognize it as sincere but misguided, or delusional. It is sentimentality—which lines up with his favourite author of fiction, Dostoevsky, a melodramatic sentimentalist bore.
Sentimentality, according to Nabokov (when criticizing Dostoevsky), is…
the non-artistic exaggeration of familiar emotions meant to provoke automatically traditional compassion in the reader
When Peterson cries, I believe he is crying for a type of character, like Raskolnikov or similar incels, rather than for real people. This makes him not a conservative, the way I see it.
He cries in a way I have cried, and I think I recognize it as sincere but misguided, or delusional. It is sentimentality—which lines up with his favourite author of fiction,
I suspect he is moved to tears in recognition of his own sensitivity; in other words, Peterson's tears are for himself.
Reply to Jamal I actually did find his crying for the incel very persuasive, even if unhinged a bit, but he did change my mind on that. An attractive woman was criticizing him for defending what appear to be misogonystic, maladjusted men, and he made a plea for them that was persuasive. He pointed out that they were deprived, even if by their own failings, of the single greatest source of happiness available, which are close relationships and the creation of one's own family. The solution for that obviously is not to allow their inappropriate behavior, but it is to recognize that some solution needs to be considered other than to tell them to hang in there and swipe right a few more times until they've worked things out.
As to sentimentality, I see that differently. I see it as a close cousin of regret. Regret is wanting to go back in the past in order to change what went wrong. Those who suffer great regret are constantly beating themselves up, unable to move on an accept their own apology.
Sentimentality is looking at that old picture of your then young parents and your long since gone dog in your lap and wanting to reach back into the past and be there again when things were better and more pure. Those who suffer great sentimentality leave a foot planted in the past and can't move on to the future. They are burdened with something left behind they want to go back and get.
With either, the present doesn't develop like it should. With those prone to regret, they fail to act for fear of error. With those prone to sentimentality, they cling to every moment, trying to wrench every last drop from it as they know it will be fleeting and never recovered.
This is some deep shit. I'm fucking nailing this shit.
This is the song you have to listen to to free yourself of sentimentality:
As to sentimentality, I see that differently. I see it as a close cousin of regret. Regret is wanting to go back in the past in order to change what went wrong. Those who suffer great regret are constantly beating themselves up, unable to move on an accept their own apology.
Sentimentality is looking at that old picture of your then young parents and your long since gone dog in your lap and wanting to reach back into the past and be there again when things were better and more pure. Those who suffer great sentimentality leave a foot planted in the past and can't move on to the future. They are burdened with something left behind they want to go back and get.
With either, the present doesn't develop like it should. With those prone to regret, they fail to act for fear of error. With those prone to sentimentality, they cling to every moment, trying to wrench every last drop from it as they know it will be fleeting and never recovered.
This is some deep shit. I'm fucking nailing this shit.
You’ve gone deep there, but I don’t think you’ve nailed it. That’s not sentimentality. That’s the recognition of lost time. Moments gone forever, that kind of thing. Just thinking about any time in my past can make me emotional, no matter what was happening at the time. I think that’s deeper than sentimentality.
Those who suffer great sentimentality leave a foot planted in the past and can't move on to the future. They are burdened with something left behind they want to go back and get.
I'm not convinced this is a negative. I get sentimental about plenty of stuff, but it's an appreciation and momentary lapse of 'being in the moment' as it were. Then, I retrain my mind to the present and move on - feeling a little more full, emotionally.
Reply to AmadeusD Commentators sometimes make a connection between sentimentalism and barbarism. It's true that amongst the most lachrymose, sentimental people l have met are those who habitually harm or even kill others, without any compunction. Thoughts?
Reply to Tom Storm Hmm. Fair enough. We clearly run in different circles :grin:
I would say overly-sentimental people, in my experience are ineffectual. They aren't trained on the present moment. I guess that can be negative, but too much of anything is a poison, right?
But for that reason, i don't really see sentimental people harming others. Maybe they are harming people without computation, rather than compunction so it's really hard to see the 'causality' (let's not.. lol). That would make sense to me.
I think it’s about superficiality. The Nabokov quote that I posted above is preceded with this:
We must distinguish between ‘sentimental’ and ‘sensitive’. A sentimentalist may be a perfect brute in his free time. A sensitive person is never a cruel person. Sentimental Rousseau, who could weep over a progressive idea, distributed his many natural children through various poorhouses and workhouses and never gave a hoot for them. A sentimental old maid may pamper her parrot and poison her niece. The sentimental politician may remember Mother’s Day and ruthlessly destroy a rival. Stalin loved babies. Lenin sobbed at the opera, especially at the Traviata.
And Hitler loved animals. It’s a familiar critique, as you note. I think it still stands up. Sentimentality is not to be trusted. It can be manipulative, and it’s facile pretty much by definition.
Reply to Jamal Whats the difference in a 'sensitive' person? (i realise the quote claims 'never a cruel person' but then gives examples to support the former claim, and not the latter..)
Sensitivity isn’t shallow, thoughtless, and facile. The sentimental person sees a cute cat and stares at it, walks towards it, makes stupid noises (“awww”, and similar contemptible sounds), and attempts to pick it up, whereas the sensitive person cares about how the cat feels, and knows that all of that stuff will only make the cat feel uncomfortable.
I realize I’m trying to define by example rather than pin it down, but I believe that’s the best approach here.
Can't speak for Jamal ( or Nabokov who I revere as a genius) but I can see how being sensitive is empathy and recognition of complexities and how these impact others. While sentimentality is a type of superficial romanticism which plays out as self-regarding and indulgent emotionality.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 23:02#8705060 likes
For me an issue with philosophy is the demarcation between ideas which may be helpful to us personally and that which constitutes a more specialized knowledge of the philosophy - its history and development.
Well I certainly do think that In general terms, if philosophy and philosophers ever try to impose barriers based on some elitist style suggestion that 'only the fully qualified may pass this point,' then it and they will never speak to or for the masses and will remain a series of echoes that are just mainly employed by the nefarious as a tool they can manipulate to further abuse those masses. Elitist philosophers are as bad as evanhellical theists imho.
Dillahunty had to look up who Nietzsche was one night recently when I was watching.
If you can identify that episode Tom, I would be very interested in viewing that section. I think Dillahunty would know who Nietzsche was as well as he knows his current home address, but I am willing to look at what you are referring to.
Can't speak for Jamal ( or Nabokov who I revere as a genius) but I can see how being sensitive is empathy and recognition of complexities and how these impact others. While sentimentality is a type of superficial romanticism which plays out as self-regarding and indulgent emotionality.
I agree. The sentimentalists, while thinking they care, actually don’t care about real people, and weep for their own images (e.g., stereotypes or archetypes) of those people; the sensitive person, on the other hand, cares enough to empathize with the real person (or cat).
Well I certainly do think that In general terms, if philosophy and philosophers ever try to impose barriers based on some elitist style suggestion that 'only the fully qualified may pass this point,' then it and they will never speak to or for the masses and will remain a series of echoes that are just mainly employed by the nefarious as a tool they can manipulate to further abuse those masses. Elitist philosophers are as bad as evanhellical theists imho.
Hmm. I'm often an elitist. If I am going to have brain surgery, say, I want the best. Ditto dental surgery. I think there's a difference between the ideas an average person is able to follow and use and what ideas the human race is capable of articulating in the fullness of our creative and intellectual powers. Since this site isn't merely about pragmatic fundie busting, I would think we are hoping (sometimes at least) to identify some of the more advanced thinking in the philosophical tradition. Such ideas may be difficult to grasp, but they need not be elitist in the posturing and disengaged sense of the term.
I'm quite happy to recognize that some philosophy is beyond me as I simply lack the necessary background and disposition to pursue it. That's on me. But I do often enjoy ideas which are unfamiliar and counterintuitive and different to my own.
Brother Universeness, fellow socialist, fellow humanist! No one will think less of you if you allow that somebody who has been read for 2500 years might conceivably be more a more important than Matt Dillahunty.
:lol: You rang M'Lord? The story/words of gods have been read for a lot longer than the words of Plato. I don't see why the duration of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself. My brother socialist and secular humanist. I would far prefer to base my hopes for the future direction of our species on the thoughts and musings of Matt Dillahunty, if the only other option is Plato. I think even the thoughts and musings of the socialist, secular, humanist BC would be better for the future of our species than Plato.
The sentimental person sees a cute cat and stares at it, walks towards it, makes stupid noises (“awww”, and similar contemptible sounds), and attempts to pick it up, whereas the sensitive person cares about how the cat feels, and knows that all of that stuff will only make the cat feel uncomfortable.
Ah Ok, fair enough. I don't understand it to be much of a distinction though. I very, very rarely see these two things apart from one another in people and when I do, I tend to get the impression the person is not actually in contact with the present moment - so, rather than seeing it as less shallow, I see it as more deep haha but to a fault.
The sentimentalists, while thinking they care, actually don’t care about real people, and weep for their own images (e.g., stereotypes or archetypes) of those people; the sensitive person, on the other hand, cares enough to empathize with the real person (or cat).
It sounds as if we're talking about these as necessarily different types of people. Is that the case? I don't find it so.
I don't see why the duration of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself.
I think you're misconceiving the point.
It's the endurance, not the duration, that matters. Plato has stood the test of time. It is not an appeal to tradition, but an appeal to the gauntlet of philosophical history. I, at some point, felt the way you did. Then i read some Plato. And it was patently, obviously, laughably clear i was being 'edgy'.
Reply to unenlightened I've look at Hegel several times, and quickly decided to look at something else. Granted, lots of people grant him great importance.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 23:35#8705280 likes
Hmm. I'm often an elitist. If I am going to have brain surgery, say, I want the best. Ditto dental surgery. I think there's a difference between the ideas an average person is able to follow and use and what ideas the human race is capable of articulating in the fullness of our creative and intellectual powers. Since this site isn't merely about pragmatic fundie busting, I would think we are hoping (sometimes at least) to identify some of the more advanced thinking in the philosophical tradition. Such ideas may be difficult to grasp, but they need not be elitist in the posturing and disengaged sense of the term.
I'm quite happy to recognize that some philosophy is beyond me as I simply lack the necessary background and disposition to pursue it. That's on me. But I do often enjoy ideas which are unfamiliar and counterintuitive and different to my own.
For me, this is crucial Tom. In the scenarios you offered, the brain and dental surgeon are the elites, you are the one in need. You need their care and skill and you have the right to hope, that to them, you are worth their attention and their best efforts. That is what the masses should be able to rely upon from the best that philosophy and philosophers can muster. It even appears in science, when Einstein said that it was his burden to be able to explain his theories to a child. I agree, it is his burden.
Ditto, as to Universenesses request... Very surprising, and even laughable, if true.
I didn't mean to say that D had never heard of Nietzsche. A caller rang and asked what D thought of N's ideas. D shrugged and looked him up and said something like, 'He's not been on my radar.' My point was simply that I doubt D would be able to usefully explore any the issues that people like Peterson raise around N's death of god and implications for atheism. Does this make D a dim wit? No. It's just that philosophy is not really his area of expertise, as I am sure he'd be the first to admit.
I've look at Hegel several times, and quickly decided to look at something else. Granted, lots of people grant him great importance.
Apparently, his writing is absolutely F'ing atrocious - so i took secondary sources and find his general ideas and thrust very, very interesting. I wonder if there's a EMT of Hegel... But, no for the reason above LOL..
"This website does not contain any works by Hegel because the preparer of the text-versions does not know Hegel's work well enough to tackle such a task, and is now much too old (born 1930) to remedy that ignorance. A secondary consideration: the famous difficulty of grasping Hegel's thought seems to be intrinsic to the thought itself, which means that it is not the kind of difficulty that this website aims to be helpful with."
It's the endurance, not the duration, that matters.
Does it help if I reword to:
"I don't see why the endurance of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself."
The result is the same imo.
I, at some point, felt the way you did. Then i read Plato. And it was patently, obviously, laughably clear i was being 'edgy'.
I have already stated that I know a fair amount about the writings of Plato via proxy encounters. My opinions have not changed from each new indirect encounter with his writings.
I have already stated that I know a fair amount about the writings of Plato via proxy encounters. My opinions have not changed from each new indirect encounter with his writings.
That is what the masses should be able to rely upon from the best that philosophy and philosophers can muster
Sure. But the higher level expertise of philosophy - central ideas, critical texts, (the meat, if you like) are often what this site examines, and not only an application of parts of those ideas at a school or an aged care facility.
when Einstein said that it was his burden to be able to explain his theories to a child. I agree, it is his burden.
:up: Yep but before we can explain complex ideas to a small child, it's likely we need to understand them in their fullness as an adult. The process of explanation is akin to a translation.
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 23:55#8705440 likes
For me, that would indicate that he merely needs a refresh. My quals and career was in Computing science but it's been a while since I taught the details of say, computer network topologies and networked operating systems. If someone asked me about any significant detail, then I might have to say, 'can I get back to you on that one.' Matt has often complained that every caller seems to expect him to be an absolute expert on everything they ask him about, and if he falls short of their expectations in any way, then they often pounce and spit, with some irrational BS like 'see Matt does not know what he is talking about.'
universenessJanuary 08, 2024 at 23:57#8705460 likes
Reply to universeness And fair enough - I'm just stating that i would agree duration isn't a good reason to take something seriously, but I do think endurance usually is so disagree there.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:07#8705520 likes
Sure. But the higher level expertise of philosophy - central ideas, critical texts, (the meat, if you like) are often what this site examines, and not only an application of parts of those ideas at a school or an aged care facility.
But my complaint was not about learned philosophers debating and fine tuning ideas with other learned philosophers or even their discussions with the less learned philosophisers amongst the current TPF membership (like me). I was complaining about any 'philosopher' who would ever think or feel that their main burden was anything other than the well-being and advancement of all humanity (not of course to the detriment of all other existents). Any philosophy or philosopher that does not exist for that purpose is a net negative imo.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:13#8705590 likes
I'm just stating that i would agree duration isn't a good reason to take something seriously, but endurance usually is.
:roll: When did I suggest that I did not take Plato's musings seriously? Evil endures, I take evil seriously but I don't value it as the main guide to a better future for all humans!
When did I suggest that I did not take Plato's musings seriously?
Perhaps i'm using the wrong word - well, it seems you really do not take Plato seriously, and dismiss him as 'old and out of touch'. Is that not taking it less seriously?
I have no idea where you're going with 'evil'. Total non sequitur here.
I was complaining about any 'philosopher' who would ever think or feel that their main burden was anything other than the well-being and advancement of all humanity (not of course to the detriment of all other existents). Any philosophy or philosopher that does not exist for that purpose is a net negative imo.
I suspect that we've been jumping around a bit. I think however that your point goes back to how one determines what's important in order to achieve this result. I suspect that some people might say Derrida's insights can help lead the way. Others might call him an obscurantist wanker. On a philosophy site we need to recognize that we may not be able to readily identify which thinker is of most use in this 'advancement of humanity' - our own biases and frames are not necessarily the only or best way forward.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:22#8705680 likes
Reply to AmadeusD
I used evil as an example of that which has long endured and must be taken very seriously but yet should never be used as a foundation on which to base a human culture on.
I take Plato seriously but his musings are too full of esoteric nonsense to have ever been or continue to be used as a foundation on which to base any future human culture.
I take Plato seriously but his musings are too full of esoteric nonsense to have ever been or continue to be used as as a foundation on which to base any future human culture.
Ahh... I think this is why I see your position as the same 'edggy' position I had taken. Unfortunately for the position, Plato has already had, and continues to have, immense influence on many cultures.
Esoteric nonsense pisses me off too. I absolutely abhor new-agey thinking (having spent some years trapped in it). But if you have not read Plato in any 'complete' form (i.e a full work (any of them)) then I can't say it's all that fair for me to critique you position too much. You simply do not know what you haven't read.
I take Plato seriously but his musings are too full of esoteric nonsense to have ever been or continue to be used as as a foundation on which to base any future human culture.
And, of course, there are emerging traditions which are seeking to restore a form of Neoplatonism to the Western tradition in the manner of cognitive scientist and philosopher, John Vervaeke's work. He's a Canadian rival to Peterson in the restoration of meaning business. I'm not a follower or a Neoplatonist, but it is interesting to encounter his work.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:28#8705730 likes
Reply to AmadeusD
So give me your best 'Plato' that would best express to me, why YOU think, his musings should be used in any way, shape or form as an influence on 'many human cultures.'
Euthyphro and Republic are both patently helpful in working out how to set up societies. Do we take them as wrote? No. Do we even take them generally wholesale? No. But he was essentially the first to attack these ideas, and got much of hte meat on to the table.
I would imagine that a position that leapfrogs Plato, but takes subsequent philosophy as employable, is ignorant to the fact that it is mostly 'footnotes to Plato'.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:34#8705810 likes
Reply to Tom Storm
Sounds interesting Tom but I honestly think I would rather go with the musings of Roddenberry than any of the Greeks.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:38#8705830 likes
If our current western cultures are based on such, and our current western cultures are so close to vanishing up their own arsehole, why should we not totally abandon the bad notions they are based on?
If our current western cultures are based on such, and our current Western cultures are so close to vanishing up their own arsehole, why should we not totally abandon the bad notions they are based on?
Ahhhhhh. This is a very, very helpful note to understand your position then. It's not edgy.
But I would say I do not agree with your take on Western culture. I particularly disagree and find it to be a rather insipid and unfortunate position to take. Though, If you're also saying every other society also sucks - I can get on board there :P
should we not totally abandon the bad notions they are based on?
As noted, they were never 'totally' taken on board, so this doesn't make tooo much sense - But in light of your view on Western culture, I can see why baby WITH bathwater isn't a risk for you.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 00:51#8705950 likes
Reply to AmadeusD
No, I am confirming we can do sooooooo much better. Time to dump the platonic waste and recover from the fallout. The effects must be starting to wear of by now. Watch some more Matt Dillahunty or read some Carl Sagan books. I have read all of them. Some more than once. Saganism, not Platonism.
No, I am confirming we can do sooooooo much better. Time to dump the platonic waste and recover from the fallout. The effects must be starting to wear of by now. Watch some more Matt Dillahunty or read some Carl Sagan books. I have read all of them. Some more than once. Saganism, not Platonism.
In terms of your opinion on Western Culture: Fair enough. I don't see it, but you do you Boo.
In terms of 'the better way' - I can only chuckle at replacing Plato with Dillahunty (who i can almost guarantee you, is deriving his views from a Platonic lineage (similar to the Christianity-influenced-the-West claim.. It's true)). It's like replacing Hawking with a first-year linguist.
@universeness One or two people including myself quite recently defined stupidity as the refusal to learn when given the chance. It seems not to have occurred to you, despite what people have told you, that you really do have to read Plato to pass judgement on him. Textbook stupidity.
Plato, particularly with Socrates, is about asking questions, and he shows which are the good questions to ask. It is not a doctrine, or need not be read as one, and certainly is not only one if it is. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so please stop.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 09, 2024 at 02:17#8706480 likes
I don't see why the duration of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself.
You misunderstand. Plato already is the foundation, be it bad or good. I think the length of time sustained is evidence that the foundation was pretty good. As for the future, we can either repair the problems of the ancient foundation, or tear down the entire existing structure and start again from scratch. Plato suggested that the latter is inevitable. Ready to work?
Anyways, meal prep this week was chili. No, I won't give out my secret recipe, but suffice it to say I'm a firm believer in "more is more" when it comes to chili. Yes there's beer in it, and more spices than just chili powder. Topped with shredded cheddar and green onion. :ok:
Cumin and smoked paprika were present. I honestly don't think the beer does anything, it just makes me feel more uh-MER-ican. It does add more liquid though without adding salt (via broth) and is theoretically more flavorful than adding water. Also, I came to the realization that I might actually be putting too much stuff in my chili after all. I think the sheer quantity of dried spices is affecting the texture of the stew.
I would say Beer-battered onion rings are more common in America. So if the chips are beer-battered, does that mean they're double dredged or something?
Also, I came to the realization that I might actually be putting too much stuff in my chili after all. I think the sheer quantity of dried spices is affecting the texture of the stew.
This happened to me when making a curry. I had been taking the generally great advice to use “the right amount, not the white amount” with several kinds of Asian food, and it’s usually wise, because Western recipes call for absurdly tiny amounts of all the spices.
But there’s a limit. I put in masses of garam masala and fenugreek and the texture was unpleasant.
Now that I think about it, I don't know that I do either. But I think some fancier fries (chips) are coated with a batter, fried, then coated again and fried again. I think that's what I was thinking of. The recipe you linked to is a single batter.
Haven't heard this either, but good advice. I do know with Indian curries, spices are usually toasted whole and then ground by hand, so you don't have the uniform grainy texture of mass produced dried spices, plus you need less because they're toasted and freshly ground. That said, I've never made a 1/4th decent Indian curry myself. Thai curries are much easier for gringos.
I made a Hanoverian stew consisting of beef, potatoes, multi-colored carrots, rutabaga, yuca, chili pepper, onions, garlic, parsley, paprika, salt, cumin, and basil.
What made it especially delicious was the company, meaning me. I am quite the conversationalist, an engaging host, and I have the most piercing eyes and adorable smile.
As the evening wore on and my guests grew drunk on the multi-colored carrots, I offered them free lodging above my kitchen, where they made their way to the rickety freezing rat infested loft. Had they been aware of what danger lurked above, they'd probably not accepted my offer.
The stew part was true. The other part, yeah, well, it's no stupider than saying Matt is more important than Plato.
Sorry, I misspelled it. It was a basal skin cell carcinoma I picked loose from between my eyebrows. It tasted of fear, like the kind you feel when you have cancer between your eyes.
Weird direction on that one. My apologies.
I thought the basil added a hint of chaos and fun. I'll invite you next time so you won't feel slighted and feel the need to attack my seasoning choices.
I would describe the evolution of your shoutbox jokes as overwhelmingly bewildering. It's either that or I'm too tired to come up with a witty response. I'm also out of practice in shoutbox scholarship, having been preoccupied with proofreading "short stories" written by weird people who post on a philosophy forum.
As an aside, the egregious inclusion of basil (presumably dried) in a dish where it doesn't belong goes back to my childhood in which my mother would make tofu stir fry with vaguely asian ingredients and spices...and too much dried basil. It's a sense memory I'd like to forget.
As an aside, the egregious inclusion of basil (presumably dried) in a dish where it doesn't belong goes back to my childhood in which my mother would make tofu stir fry with vaguely asian ingredients and spices...and too much dried basil. It's a sense memory I'd like to forget.
I'd agree the basil is misplaced in that meal you spoke of in your trauma dump.
I feel like basil in stew is proper. I Googled basil and stew and got many hits. I'll ask Matt what he thinks.
I've been told this is one of my strongest assets. I just dump and dump, and eventually people tell me they feel bad, or that I'm a gifted writer, or whatever.
Basil is Italian (unless it's Thai). It should only be used in those cuisines, depending on which one it is. It has no place in a southern white boi stew that also includes rutabaga.
I'm realizing that I've hung around here long enough that I'm absorbing other posters writing styles; it's like we're all married. "Basil is Italian (unless it's Thai)." is very @BC. My initial reply in this post is very @Hanover. The crisp exactitude of my language is very @Jamal. Now I feel weird. I'll edit and make this emoji :lol: to give it some @Baden.
You’ve gone deep there, but I don’t think you’ve nailed it. That’s not sentimentality. That’s the recognition of lost time. Moments gone forever, that kind of thing. Just thinking about any time in my past can make me emotional, no matter what was happening at the time. I think that’s deeper than sentimentality.
The definition of sentimentality:
"dealing with feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia, typically in an exaggerated and self-indulgent way."
The nostalgia and exaggerated sadness is what I honed in on, the depths of which are limited only by what was lost in yesterday.
It's sentimental comments like that that I'd use as examples of what I mean by sentimental, but maybe it's my own exaggerated idiosyncratic brand of it.
javi2541997January 09, 2024 at 04:53#8707080 likes
Sentimentality, according to Nabokov (when criticizing Dostoevsky), is…
Well, Nabokov didn't like Don Quixote either. Dostoevsky inspired Freud thanks to familiar emotions, compassion, and the psychology of the characters. As well as Cervantes inspired other writers thanks to the role of Quixote. I accept that people are not forced to love Don Quixote or Crime and Punishment, but I get mad when cliché authors just criticize them to get attention.
universenessJanuary 09, 2024 at 10:12#8707330 likes
In terms of 'the better way' - I can only chuckle at replacing Plato with Dillahunty (who i can almost guarantee you, is deriving his views from a Platonic lineage (similar to the Christianity-influenced-the-West claim.. It's true)). It's like replacing Hawking with a first-year linguist.
Boo to you too with some added woo woo woo sounds for added effect.
I see your little chuckle and I raise you, with a loud three second bout of hardy derisive laughter.
Like most human beings with the ability to think rationally, Dillahunty derives his views from all encounters, experiences and learnings, that living his life has caused. Like the fictitious Yahweh, chosen from a Pantheon of fictitious gods, Plato did not write his laws or writings in the hearts of all humans. He was elevated mostly be members of early nefarious elites. Most or all of the truly humanist, socialist, secular writings of those unknown thousands were most likely destroyed. As I said before, Plato was a bit player, a name that floated to the top of many thousands of such musers. His writings were amongst those that survived, probably due to his favoured mysticism at a time when many more people believed in the existence and power of the supernatural and like many here on TPF still do, they cowered in fear in their places of rest at night, when they thought the gods were watching them and were deciding their fate, during and after their life and death. :rofl: Many here still just can't get past this BS miasma and they remain incapable of joining all effort to become as incredible as a fully united human species could achieve. A new non-destructive set of common causes that will result in us becoming what we are compelled to become, A space faring species. But small minded people want to stick with ancient, laughable bullshit ideas like Plato's forms and abuses of the notion of logos. Such ideas were around way way before Plato, most of them bad ideas or poorly presented notions, with too much BS esoteric additional content. I have tried to explain that to you but you seem to prefer your cultural foundation to be figureheaded by a peddler of woo woo.
Plato suggested that the latter is inevitable. Ready to work?
So even Plato himself tried to tell you muppets that his ideas were shit! I started working against his woo woo when I was still a child, when will you start?
One or two people including myself quite recently defined stupidity as the refusal to learn when given the chance. It seems not to have occurred to you, despite what people have told you, that you really do have to read Plato to pass judgement on him. Textbook stupidity.
Stupidity is better defined (like insanity), as repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.
Y'now, like continuing to use woo woo peddlers like Plato to guide the cultural, sociopolitical, and/or even moral lives of a society of humans. It's insanity and rather stupid to keep making that mistake. But you seem to be one of those who are fated to and incapable of any kind of fresh original thinking, and you have 'actually read Plato's writings directly.' :roll: :death: :flower:
You don’t know what you’re talking about, so please stop.
As I have typed before, so I am forced to type again. 'Right back at you pal!'
I will let you and the rest of your 'I have actually directly read Plato,' blind leading the blind philosophers, go back to what you seem to enjoy most, the deepest and most intensely felt exchanges on the most important philosophical issue in your worldviews. What you all eat!!!! :rofl:
My apologies to @ucarr, I was enjoying your most recent thread and was looking forward to my next response. Keep doing what you do so well sir!
unenlightenedJanuary 09, 2024 at 10:55#8707360 likes
Welcome to the doubledownbox, ladies and gentlemen. I blame @Hanover.
Plato has and will be known for millennia, unless you, which I wouldn't be surprised in the least, start to doubt his existence as well.
What will you be known for? Just curious. I see you like your boy, and I'm sure he's a brilliant - perhaps even decent - man, though the latter quality I would question, but is it not simply the fact you can see and (though I hope you would not) touch him and actually question him knowing he and his message are both real while neither of us could do the same of Plato? You remind me of a child in faith, he always needs to see what happens, while never actually caring or understanding why, simply for the fact he can point to, grasp, and share with others. There's nothing wrong with this, though some mature beyond this juvenile state of intellect.
What I find most annoying is you not realizing theism was simply the flavor of the day (as it should be now, and will be if and when I become elect- but that's another matter). No different then young boys having a liking for Superman or any of the Avengers trio, no different than young girls fancying Barbie or having an affinity for Taylor Swift. These things, be they of substance or not, were and are pivotal in the development of one's identity, potential, and yes philosophical ideas and notions. Of course one could cast each in a negative light, focusing on the flaws or lack of resoluteness as all things that inspire minds and endeavors intrinsically have. The problem is when you focus on, not even a flaw, but an unknown, and fail to see the forest for the trees. Which is precisely what I believe you're misconception is.
Quite frankly, it (a greater non-human quality, or divinity) was not simply a trend. But a law. Often punishable by death. Can you not factor that in combined with the idea you need to speak the language of those you're trying to communicate with? :chin:
I don't see how you can throw the baby out with the bathwater as you seem to do. That said, I have enjoyed our interactions, few and fleeting as they may have been.
Plato did not write his laws or writings in the hearts of all humans. He was elevated mostly be members of early nefarious elites. Most or all of the truly humanist, socialist, secular writings of those unknown thousands were most likely destroyed. As I said before, Plato was a bit player, a name that floated to the top of many thousands of such musers. His writings were amongst those that survived, probably due to his favoured mysticism at a time when many more people believed in the existence and power of the supernatural and like many here on TPF still do, they cowered in fear in their places of rest at night, when they thought the gods were watching them and were deciding their fate, during and after their life and death.
That's highly illogical captain. Thousands of other writings whose writers were far more significant then Plato were destroyed, thus allowing Plato, a bit player, to rise to the top.
Boo to you too with some added woo woo woo sounds for added effect.
I see your little chuckle and I raise you, with a loud three second bout of hardy derisive laughter.
Like most human beings with the ability to think rationally, Dillahunty derives his views from all encounters, experiences and learnings, that living his life has caused. Like the fictitious Yahweh, chosen from a Pantheon of fictitious gods, Plato did not write his laws or writings in the hearts of all humans. He was elevated mostly be members of early nefarious elites. Most or all of the truly humanist, socialist, secular writings of those unknown thousands were most likely destroyed. As I said before, Plato was a bit player, a name that floated to the top of many thousands of such musers. His writings were amongst those that survived, probably due to his favoured mysticism at a time when many more people believed in the existence and power of the supernatural and like many here on TPF still do, they cowered in fear in their places of rest at night, when they thought the gods were watching them and were deciding their fate, during and after their life and death. :rofl: Many here still just can't get past this BS miasma and they remain incapable of joining all effort to become as incredible as a fully united human species could achieve. A new non-destructive set of common causes that will result in us becoming what we are compelled to become, A space faring species. But small minded people want to stick with ancient, laughable bullshit ideas like Plato's forms and abuses of the notion of logos. Such ideas were around way way before Plato, most of them bad ideas or poorly presented notions, with too much BS esoteric additional content. I have tried to explain that to you but you seem to prefer your cultural foundation to be figureheaded by a peddler of woo woo.
It seems that you do not understand much of anything, with this post.
I further think that it is quite irrational to base any sociopolitical worldviews and actual policies, on the musings of someone as irrational and theistic as Plato.
Err…You’re just not fully aware of Plato’s influence, methinks. I think reading the Republic is very worthwhile, especially for anyone interested in philosophy. Still relevant and interesting even today. In fact, you’ve inspired me to dig up a copy and start anew, as it’s been a while!
(Not only the republic, of course.)
Deleted userJanuary 09, 2024 at 19:13#8708380 likes
Personal attack veiled as a rhetorical question followed by disingenuous dissimulation. Boooo :down:
I can assure you that was not the intent, simply an attempt to invoke a blunt realistic comparison to gain some common ground between the individual and the seemingly vastly out of reach message and sentiments of the opponents to his own.
It was not disingenuous. I happen to feel the comparisons and anecdotes I brought up were quite relevant and could not be further from dissimulation. If I am incorrect, that is to say what I thought was a realistic bridge of comparison is in fact an allegorical detour of little relevance and poor if not ill composition or will that is a separate matter.
The individual in question seems to have an innate ability, one I am almost personally envious of, to rub the owner of the site and his cohorts the wrong way with little effort. Which leads me to believe there is more going on than a simple exchange of words and static sentiment or belief, a deeper relationship which the likes of you and me are simply not privy to. I simply wish for him to continue being a member of this community by his own volition and to avoid poking the proverbial bear, as he seems to have no capitulation in doing.
I don't think so. It can be, not unreasonably, ascertained that the rhetoric question of "What will you be remembered for?" is a near-virtual equivalent to the statement "You will not be remembered for anything", at least in the relative comparison to the likes of one, Plato.
If I knew for a fact his life would end soon, as well as the idea he did nothing of relevance that will outlast his own life or even a few generations (which is a reasonable claim as this is the fate of most persons) and issued such a rhetoric, perhaps he would be correct.
I simply am confident in the idea that, as things currently stand, Plato, is and will likely always be a common household name, at least for those philosophically inclined, and even make the daring suggestion that the philosopher he claims to be "superior" or "better" than Plato would not.
Just opinion. However distinct in my conviction that if wagered on as fact or not I would not hesitate on betting on and would soon find myself entitled to whatever pot or bounty was pledged.
Reply to AmadeusD All this reminds me of an old joke. A very bad actor was performing the lead in Hamlet - it was so bad that his performance elicited boos and hisses from the audience. The actor turned to the audience and yelled, 'Shut up, I didn't write this shit!"
I post from a phone sometimes. It’s horrible, but—in my experience—no more horrible than posting anything on a phone. Relative to other sites and apps, the mobile experience for TPF seems pretty not bad to me.
What’s the problem in particular?
javi2541997January 10, 2024 at 06:41#8710440 likes
It sounds as if we're talking about these as necessarily different types of people. Is that the case? I don't find it so.
No, you're right, not "necessarily". There may be times when the sensitive response and the sentimental response coincide, and a person can be sentimental in one part of life but sensitive in another. But I also suspect there are people who can be generally described as sensitive, and not sentimental (and vice versa). The classic examples of sentimental yet insensitive people, probably a cliché now, are dictators like Stalin and Hitler, who could be personally charming, were moved by poetry and music, loved animals and children, etc. Although it's a cliché, I do believe it's a thing.
Maybe this is because sentimentalism, like dictators, is vain or selfish. What's important to the sentimental person is their own feeling. Take the example of the "animal lover" again: they want to cuddle the cat for their own gratification, to pick it up and hold it like a baby, belly up, not caring that cats almost always hate being held in such a helpless position (a sensitive person can correct this behaviour when they're told (often by the cat) that it's bad, but some people don't).
javi2541997January 10, 2024 at 13:43#8710810 likes
I just noticed @Count Timothy von Icarus had been named as moderator. Well done, I think he will be suitable for the role. Why don't we hold a solemn ceremony for this new designation? Like in the Middle Ages when all the folks went to eat, drink and dance when a new king or lord was named.
We do hold a secret ceremony, but it takes place behind closed doors at an undisclosed location, and the participants are sworn to secrecy, especially regarding the arcane and alarming details of the ceremony itself.
I question, if not chuckle at, the idea this site, much as I enjoy it, has the need for additional resources in the moderation department. As if there was some influx or overwhelming number of posts an hour suddenly or something that could not be managed in betwixt the preparation and consumption of the various Hanoverian stews, Jamalian rabbit, and Badenesque chicken and cheese pretzels that apparently sustain, nourish, and keep the current moderation team aloft. That said, good for him.
javi2541997January 10, 2024 at 14:05#8710900 likes
Also, Count Tim was only made a mod about 20 minutes ago so it's surprising that you discovered it so soon.
I can usually be a very good detective, but it is not something to brag about, honestly.
One advice, Uncle Jamal: be cautious about that 'secret' ceremony. There could be an agent working for me. Muhahahaha! :cool:
javi2541997January 10, 2024 at 14:11#8710910 likes
Reply to Outlander I personally believe Count Tom will manage all you are wondering about. Don't worry. He worked for the CIA and CIS. We don't know a better applicant for the tedious and complex job of moderating this site where there is a buffoon (me) .
I'm pretty much the chatty Cathy behind the scenes actually. I've got all sorts of drama swirling around in PMs right now. You would never believe what someone said to someone else and then the other person said this and then that. It's just cruzazy.
On the darker side, I even have a parallel dark TPF site I run in the background where all those that have been damned to bannation continue to operate. It's a sewage pit of discourse, with the worst of the worst spewing forth venom, making the Israel, Ukraine, and Trump threads look like a toddler's playground.
You might remember Maia from the former website. She presented as a very attractive young blonde who claimed genetic blindness and her every post dealt with how some suitor wanted to have sex with her, so she needed advice from the 20 or so of us well adjusted men on how to deal with her troubling hotness coupled with her inability to see what was coming. She got run off for misrepresentation. Anywho, she's the Jamal of that site. I should have interviewed others for that role, but she was such the damsel in distress and I am such the knight in shining armor.
We do hold a secret ceremony, but it takes place behind closed doors at an undisclosed location, and the participants are sworn to secrecy, especially regarding the arcane and alarming details of the ceremony itself.
Please, at least post a photo of Count Tim in the silly hat.
Deleted userJanuary 10, 2024 at 14:44#8711020 likes
We don't know a better applicant for the tedious and complex job of moderating this site where there is a buffoon (me) and weird people obsessed who is against Latin language (@Lionino) discussing every day.
What does that mean? Are you saying I am against Latin?
javi2541997January 10, 2024 at 14:55#8711050 likes
I erased the part where your name appeared. I think you don't like me nor shoutbox nature. But it is fine, we are not going to start a drama because of this. We are not toddlers.
Someone opposed to Latin might be a Latinphobe, but I'd be careful not to refer to them as Latinaphobes because that might suggest they don't like women from Latin America. Maybe anti-Latinite is better.
Deleted userJanuary 10, 2024 at 16:01#8711170 likes
Reply to javi2541997 I was not trying to start a drama, I was genuinely confused.
Someone opposed to Latin might be a Latinphobe, but I'd be careful not to refer to them as Latinaphobes because that might suggest they don't like women from Latin America. Maybe anti-Latinite is better.
Maybe this is because sentimentalism, like dictators, is vain or selfish.
Fair enough, and thanks for the response. But i just don't see the delineation as starkly, lets say, apparent.
For instance, my wife has recently found her brothers. It makes me sentimental for my own, and how close we used to be (one of mine, I no longer speak with and he did not attend my wedding nor mine his (though, in his case he didn't invite me)).
But this sentimentality around my own brothers and a previous 'life we lived', to put it sentimentally (lol), directly influenced my ability to empathize and understand my wife's overwhelming emotional response to her first message from her brother 27 years into her life. Are they different? Sure. But they can be directly connected as i see it. But hten, we're talking about emotions and I don't think its sensible to try to sort of exact demarcations so perhaps this is a natural thing for me to think
But this sentimentality around my own brothers and a previous 'life we lived',
Hmm. My own take is that the word 'sentimentality' here is probably being used somewhat arbitrarily. You could also talk about your 'connection' to your brothers or your 'bond'. I wonder if sentimentality would trivialize such a connection to kin (from my perspective, anyway), but in the end it is just a word being used in a particular way. :wink:
I wonder if sentimentality would trivialize such a connection to kin
I think it does - and i think that is the difference, to my mind. The trivial sentimentality is transmuted into a significant emotionally solidarity due to 'relating to it' or whatever oyu want to call that process, between the two.
Or perhaps simply, sentimental and sensitivity are one and the same in the most base, intrinsic level. One simply of regard to the past, and the other in regard to the future. :chin:
perhaps simply, sentimental and sensitivity are one and the same
There are plants that are very sensitive to touch; touch-me-not, for instance, will unravel their seed pods at the slightest touch. Some sensitive plants collapse when touched. We would not call them sentimental plants, would we? No. Weeping willows, however, are nothing but cheap sentiment.
Or perhaps simply, sentimental and sensitivity are one and the same in the most base, intrinsic level. One simply of regard to the past, and the other in regard to the future. :chin:
I see sensitivity to mean only that your senses are heightened so that your reactions tend to come off as exaggerated to someone not as sensitive. If you are sensitive to light, for instance, you shield your eyes.
If you are sensitive to criticism, you attack at the slightest provocation. If sensitive to physical pain, you scream, but at emotional pain, you cry, maybe even become depressed.
I also think some are sensitive, but their responses controlled. Those people are generally referred to as observant as opposed to sensitive, but they are linked. The observant are able to react in a tempered and logical way to what their sensitivity perceived as opposed to emotionally reacting.
I think of myself as sentimental and observant, but I think many would think of me as insensitive. I also think some are insensitive and not observant either (which is what many reserve the term insensitive to mean), meaning they piss people off constantly but have no idea they're doing it or why it's happening.
If you're observant and appearing insensitive, you might ask why you're doing that, considering it means you are self-ware of your insensitivity. That likely means you think you're right enough to say what you think needs being said even though it pisses people off. That likely has to do with another trait, I'd generally call arrogance or righteousness, where you think your rightness should prevail regardless of others feelings because rightness is of the highest order. If you think your rightness is rooted in your special ability to know it, that is arrogance. If you think your rightness is rooted in your knowledge of some higher truth, that is righteousness.
If you check your righteousness with humility, then that perhaps is wisdom. If you exaggerate your righteousness with direct references to your god-like ability and then exaggerate your failings with self-deprecation, then the juxtaposition of extremes creates an absurdity and then it becomes schtick, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
This conversation feels like Aristotle's Rhetoric, where he just keeps breaking down terms and all the distinctions seem right, but it's hard to keep them straight in your head.
javi2541997January 11, 2024 at 15:53#8714090 likes
Merienda: A banana, a cup of coffee and mint flavor licorice.
Lunch: plátano maduro con frijoles, huevo y carne de res.
Impressively perfect Spanish. Since I know you live in a Hispanic country, I guess you speak it fluently. I guess this because you wrote plátano instead of banana and 'res' instead of just carne.
On the other hand, when I went to school, one of my classmates was from Honduras. I usually went to his house to eat, and I remember he used to put plátanos in the food: rice, beans, meat, etc. I was not confident enough to taste them all, but the flavor of the plátano with rice or meat is actually pretty good, and I ended up missing the flavor because we hardly use plátanos in our meals but only in merienda and breakfast.
Plátano or plantains are different things from bananas, no one eats plantains raw.
Here some people like them boiled or in soups and stews. They are also good when sliced and fried when still green the same way we do with bananas, or fried when ripe.
My favorite way of eating them is when they are almost to the point of rotting on the outside and then roasting them. They are slightly alcoholic by them.
As far as I know, plátano can mean banana, but can also mean plantain. In Mercadona, they always had a pile of "bananas" and a pile of more expensive "plátanos," which were also bananas and not plantains. I had to leave Spain before I got to the bottom of that mystery.
Here they are not the same, a banana is a banana and a plantain is a plantain.
They are both part of the same family but have distinct textures and tastes, they even look different when you get to know what to look for.
We have several other varieties here as well. One of my favorites is a very short but thick variety that is know as a moroca, I think they are the same as the Matoke variety.
javi2541997January 11, 2024 at 21:06#8715410 likes
Plátano or plantains are different things from bananas, no one eats plantains raw.
I know. That's what I tried to explain. When someone uses Spanish, they translate plátanos as bananas. They say banana to refer to that yellow fruit which looks like a phone. But they are not the same, obviously. Plátanos are more expensive, as @Jamal noticed at Mercadona.
In Mercadona, they always had a pile of "bananas" and a pile of more expensive "plátanos," which were also bananas and not plantains. I had to leave Spain before I got to the bottom of that mystery.
Because the Canarian folks say banana instead of plátano. :sweat:
Here they are not the same, a banana is a banana and a plantain is a plantain.
They are both part of the same family but have distinct textures and tastes, they even look different when you get to know what to look for.
Reply to Sir2u "Matoke" (cooked plantain of some sort) is a popular starch dish in Kenya. It's not bad. They didn't seem to eat it as often in neighboring Uganda.
While a fried banana might be a heretofore previously unknown masterpiece, it currently is not a thing.
What about Banana Foster -- delicious and simple desert cooked in a frying pan, :
How simple? Apparently you slice a banana in half, put it in a cold cast iron pan, and add honey.
The instructions say, "add honey and a sprinkle of cinnamon; bake 10-15 minutes." Garnish with something -- whipped cream, ice cream, a sprinkle of powdered sugar... I've had Banana Foster -- it was very good.
You could heat lots of lard and deep-fat fry bananas to meet the greasy expectations of people living in the fried fish belt. Serve with Pepsi Cola.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 12, 2024 at 03:17#8716450 likes
I also think some are sensitive, but their responses controlled. Those people are generally referred to as observant as opposed to sensitive, but they are linked. The observant are able to react in a tempered and logical way to what their sensitivity perceived as opposed to emotionally reacting.
I think of myself as sentimental and observant, but I think many would think of me as insensitive. I also think some are insensitive and not observant either (which is what many reserve the term insensitive to mean), meaning they piss people off constantly but have no idea they're doing it or why it's happening.
The observant are sensitive, with responses controlled, making them appear insensitive.
f you're observant and appearing insensitive, you might ask why you're doing that, considering it means you are self-ware of your insensitivity.
Wait, they actually are insensitive. How people judge you is how you are. You are not how you judge yourself. So the insensitive likes to think of oneself as controlled sensitive, but is really insensitive.
That likely means you think you're right enough to say what you think needs being said even though it pisses people off. That likely has to do with another trait, I'd generally call arrogance or righteousness, where you think your rightness should prevail regardless of others feelings because rightness is of the highest order. If you think your rightness is rooted in your special ability to know it, that is arrogance. If you think your rightness is rooted in your knowledge of some higher truth, that is righteousness.
Now, in the same way that the insensitive wrongly thinks of oneself as sensitive but controlled, the wrongness is thought of as rightness, and through rationalization the rightness which is really wrongness becomes righteousness.
If you check your righteousness with humility, then that perhaps is wisdom. If you exaggerate your righteousness with direct references to your god-like ability and then exaggerate your failings with self-deprecation, then the juxtaposition of extremes creates an absurdity and then it becomes schtick, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
Now I'm lost. Humility would undermine the whole structure, leaving one as sentimental. But now instead of controlling sensitiveness one would be controlling righteousness in the attempt to appear sensitive, undermining the control over one's sensitiveness which makes one appear insensitive. The observant is totally confused. Do we need to start over?
Reply to BC That is a lovely frying of the banana I had forgotten. Foster, "Australian for banana," as the slogan goes.
We must also expect a fried banana is being served at a fair somewhere right now with my favorite, fried gristle, dusted with powdered sugar and doused with ketchup.
You seem like a man who knows his way around a banana. You should join in that discussion.
I worry I'm slipping. It took me way too long to make that sort of banana joke. The old Hanover would have had the crowd roaring over exploding bananas by now. Oh well, at least I eventually got there.
Reply to AmadeusD I think the better phrasing would be "How Hanover says you are, you are."
This is both synthetically true and performatively true. That is, if I say you're amazing, I am correct because I am never wrong about what is (omniscience is a trait I share with my bru Yahweh) and, in addition, me saying it makes it so. I can actually decree amazingness.
This creates the synthetic omniscience performative problem. Is something as it is because it empiricaly is, or is it as it is because i see it that way and I'm omniscient and can't be wrong, or is it as it is because i decreed it that way, speaking things into existence like a creator?
I should be Kant. Start a new vocabulary and then try to figure out what I just said.
Hanover said something about being self-aware of one's own insensitivity, That implies that what was described as being sensitive, but controlled sensitivity, is not really being sensitive at all, but actually being insensitive. It might be time to look at some psychology texts and find out about defense mechanisms and control structures.
Further, maybe it's the case that how you look at yourself is just subjective opinion, and how others view you comprises objective knowledge. Otherwise, you end up as righteous as God, like Hannie demonstrates. If others view you as insensitive, then you are insensitive, despite your own rationalization that you are really sensitive but controlled.
You seem like a man who knows his way around a banana. You should join in that discussion.
A plantain is a bad weed in the flower garden, difficult to pull. If there's anyone here who can't tell the difference between a plantain and a banana, it's time to come to your senses.
Deleted userJanuary 12, 2024 at 12:28#8717050 likes
Out of the 10 top threads right now, only 4 are about philosophy :snicker:
It is a good thing to have containment threads, but if you think about it...
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 12, 2024 at 13:00#8717110 likes
Reply to Deleted user
I think TPF is all about entertainment, not philosophy. That's why Shoutbox is #1, and Short stories is #2. Don't ask me why Site Guidelines is #3, because I would say that's a joke.
javi2541997January 12, 2024 at 13:01#8717130 likes
Reply to Deleted user You are one of the top philosophers here (Don't be jealous, Banno!)
Do you agree that folks don't have a clue about distinguishing a banana from a plátano? Why do you think this actually happens? Is it a matter of Linguistics (how the mind works through the vocabulary and language when someone perceives the quoted fruit) or metaphysics? (Why does a plátano exist? Which came first? The banana or plátano?
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 12, 2024 at 13:05#8717140 likes
Reply to javi2541997
I'd say "platano' has the same root as Plato, therefore it's more philosophically significant.
Whether or not you’re joking, I’ll point out the obvious anyway: you’re including pinned discussions, which are not relevant to the points you’re trying to make.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 12, 2024 at 13:22#8717190 likes
Reply to Jamal Shit! Intention of the overlord rules supreme. For your own reputation it's a very good thing that Subscribe is low on the list of pinned discussions.
javi2541997January 12, 2024 at 13:34#8717200 likes
Whether or not you’re joking, I’ll point out the obvious anyway: you’re including pinned discussions, which are not relevant to the points you’re trying to make.
You see, I had planned ahead for this reply. I took a screenshot of the top ten threads on this forum besides the pinned threads, where at the time 6 of them were not philosophy related. I uploaded them on imgur and hoped I would be able to retrieve it from my history, would this reply come. Unfortunately, due to the way Brave browser works, the link has been lost, and now I can't appear super witty.
Hanover said something about being self-aware of one's own insensitivity, That implies that what was described as being sensitive, but controlled sensitivity, is not really being sensitive at all, but actually being insensitive. It might be time to look at some psychology texts and find out about defense mechanisms and control structures.
The problem is from the equivocation of terms. "Sensitive" can mean having heightened senses or it can mean easily insulted, or it can mean someone who is especially compassionate. Insensitive can mean having reduced senses, but it also can mean rude and offensive and especially not compassionate.
With the way these terms have been used in various ways it therefore does make sense to say that I am sensitive (able to perceive) to my insensitivity (offensiveness). The contradiction only arises in that sentence if I use "insensitivity" as a negation of "able to perceive,' but I haven't. That is, I cannot be sensitive to the light I am insensitive too, but that's not what I said.
In fact, I clarified in my post that some used sensitive to simply mean observant, which references a self-awareness. So, if I am self aware of my offensiveness, that just means I'm choosing to be offensive, which does best explain me when I am offensive. That is, I'm not constantly wondering why I've pissed someone off, like I thought I was just being honest but I didn't realize I said the wrong thing.
I then explained what might motivate someone to say something they know might not be well received, and I said it had to do with believing being correct was more important than being nice. Why someone might hold rightness in high regard likely has something to do with assuming a position of righteousness, which I am self-aware enough to realize I do that, which is why I mock it, realizing it is ridiculous but I do it anyway. That is, I am self-aware of it.
Why do I do that which I am self aware of and only try to temper it by joking about it instead of just not doing it? That's what angels sent from heaven to help the less fortunate are charged to do.
Out of the 10 top threads right now, only 4 are about philosophy :snicker:
It is a good thing to have containment threads, but if you think about it...
This issue was addressed actually some time ago by moving the Shoutbox from the front page so that it couldn't be seen without looking for it. The intention was a good one in thinking that it would push people to the substantive philosophy pages, but instead it resulted in just less activity overall and seemed to take away from the community feel that had been created.
I think the Shoutbox does actually contain more philosophy than it's given credit for and I do think it sparks substantive threads. The nonsense throughout creates a more open conversation as well.
This is just to say that you're not the first to wonder about the focus, but I can say that anytime a substantive thread is created, there are a good number of responses, meaning that people go to the lounge to hang out, but it does not cause the other threads to suffer.
Deleted userJanuary 12, 2024 at 15:26#8717590 likes
Reply to Hanover I realise, I brought up the topic because it was recently mentioned here on the shoutbox some 10 pages ago and I happened to see the topic ratio.
I said it is a good thing to have containment threads because people go there exactly to discuss those topics instead of filling the philosophical discussion with politics. It is just funny that it shows that some people come here not for the philosophy but for politics, but here out of all places to talk politics because they simply like TPF users more.
Like cyberbullying, if you don't like it, turn off the computer or ignore it. But sometimes it is hard not to peek at those Ukraine threads...
Reply to Deleted user It's my New Year's resolution not to go into the politics threads, but today is actually "Quitter's Day," the day when people give up on their resolutions.
A plantain is a bad weed in the flower garden, difficult to pull. If there's anyone here who can't tell the difference between a plantain and a banana, it's time to come to your senses.
Can you tell the difference? The trees are even less easy to see the difference.
Reply to Sir2u The top are plantains and the bottom bananas. I know this 2 ways: The stem on the plantain is thicker, and I Google searched your images and that told me.
It is a shame that I am busy right now or I would take you for a walk in the garden and show you that there is no difference. The ridges are usually more defined on the plantains and rounder on the bananas and the texture is rougher as well.
I've been knocking at your door for like an hour. Are you going to let me in so we can stroll your garden and look at your trees?
If you are knocking on my door, then you should be able to see the porch with the seats on it. It is 12 by 32 feet and you are standing on it. Take a seat and I will bring you a beer in a few minutes.
After reading this, I can say I'm confused by it. That's certainly true.
Everything being permitted would seem to encapsulate or otherwise constitute the definition of freedom, therefore restriction seems to be technically not permitted. :chin:
Explain thyself oh strange one who seems to have surfaced from out of some non-descript nether region previously uncharted on TPF!
Deleted userJanuary 13, 2024 at 11:11#8719480 likes
Reply to Jamal If it were, I would say no; if it weren't, I would also say no.
Deleted userJanuary 13, 2024 at 11:44#8719540 likes
Reply to jorndoe I like the solution that the truth of the belief has to figure into the explanation — as in, there needs to be a causal connection. I read the abstract, and it seems to talk about something that I agree with, the "justification" is not proper justification in Gettier cases.
Buuuuut, where can I read the article?
Edit: nvm, got the pdf through my library :-P
Edit 2: I did not know that Russell came up with a sort-Gettier problem himself, but I would wager he was not the first but one of many.
Extremely windy and blustery weather here now. The squirrels are rolling down the street like tumbleweeds. I threw some peanuts to them. They rolled down the street also.
Maybe the squirrels will find them a couple miles down the road… :chin:
Keeping the hummingbird feeder warm enough for the nectar to stay liquid.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 14, 2024 at 12:12#8721630 likes
A terribly slow day in the Shoutbox, so I'll just pop in here to tell everyone to fuck off, and mind your own business!
Deleted userJanuary 14, 2024 at 12:39#8721710 likes
I just realised that the Peano of Peano arithmetics is the same Peano as the Peano that made latino sine flexione.
javi2541997January 14, 2024 at 12:44#8721740 likes
I put the popcorn in the microwave for 4 minutes and it burned down. I cried for my stupidity and laughed about all the smoke which came from the microwave.
I ate the burnt popcorn, actually.
They didn't deserve to be put on the rubbish, honestly.
If they were burnt down it is because of my fault in calculating the minutes.
Note that I consider the popcorn as a material-conscious thing.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 14, 2024 at 12:54#8721770 likes
Nice, finally some activity in the Shoutbox. I was thinking I might have to go read some short stories for my daily dose of entertainment. But I hate fiction so that would be like self-punishment. Here in the Shoutbox, at least people pretend that the fiction is the truth, so I can play along with the pretense and avoid the self-punishment through a self-gratifying self-deception.
Come to think of it, that's the bulk of TPF, people pretending that fiction is the truth, and many people playing along with the pretense in a self-gratifying self-deception.
Come to think of it, that's the bulk of TPF, people pretending that fiction is the truth, and many people playing along with the pretense in a self-gratifying self-deception.
Unless you read fiction as literal would you say there is no truth in fiction.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 14, 2024 at 13:17#8721870 likes
Reply to Hanover
I think there are many lessons to be learned from fiction, and in that way there is truth in fiction.
But I think no one is capable of reading fiction as literal. while knowing that it is fiction. "Literal" to me implies that there are real things which the words refer to, grounding the meaning in a sensible reality. If one knows it's fiction, then the person knows that the images created are a creation of one's own mind at the suggestion of the author.
This is why the new type of fiction which has come out, which uses real people, and sometimes referring to real situations, gets so confusing. It crosses the boundary, and the authors are sometimes very clever at disguising the boundary, leaving the reader perplexed as to how much is fiction and how much is truth.
This is why the new type of fiction which has come out, which uses real people, and sometimes referring to real situations, gets so confusing.
Like that old tie if you hang on to it long enough, it'll come back in fashion.
My position is that is exactly what old mythology is (the Bible, for example), the writers never having thought it to be an objective statement of the facts, but a mix of fact and fiction to advance a narrative. Maybe it's different than today where there might be an intent to deceive, but I'd submit the mixing of the two is as old as grandpa's tie.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 14, 2024 at 14:58#8722150 likes
Reply to Hanover
Agreed, and this is how we "use" narrative for various purposes, through emphasis, exaggeration, and outright lies. A narrative can never be "true" in the sense required by some epistemologists, because each individual who states the narrative chooses one's own words. The choice of words reflects the person's intentions as well as one's disposition and background. The two mix, intention and background, and then "truth" becomes an honest representation of this concoction. To misrepresent one's intentions, or to use words pretentiously is to be dishonest.
Being here with the name "Undercover", I let it slip out that the honest representation is what I avoid. Do I misrepresent my intentions, or am I pretentious? Or is everything I say here just a dishonest concoction of both?
This is why the new type of fiction which has come out, which uses real people, and sometimes referring to real situations, gets so confusing. It crosses the boundary, and the authors are sometimes very clever at disguising the boundary, leaving the reader perplexed as to how much is fiction and how much is truth.
That's not new, though, it's been common in literature for centuries.
Roman à clef (French pronunciation: [??m?? a kle], anglicised as /ro??m?n ? ?kle?/),[1] French for novel with a key, is a novel about real-life events that is overlaid with a façade of fiction.[2] The fictitious names in the novel represent real people, and the "key" is the relationship between the non-fiction and the fiction.[3] This metaphorical key may be produced separately—typically as an explicit guide to the text by the author—or implied, through the use of epigraphs or other literary techniques.[4]
Madeleine de Scudéry created the roman à clef in the 17th century to provide a forum for her thinly veiled fiction featuring political and public figures.[4]
The reasons an author might choose the roman à clef format include satire; writing about controversial topics and/or reporting inside information on scandals without giving rise to charges of libel; the opportunity to turn the tale the way the author would like it to have gone; the opportunity to portray personal, autobiographical experiences without having to expose the author as the subject; avoiding self-incrimination or incrimination of others that could be used as evidence in civil, criminal, or disciplinary proceedings; the ability to change the background and personalities of key participants; and the settling of scores.
Agreed, and this is how we "use" narrative for various purposes, through emphasis, exaggeration, and outright lies.
On the other hand, it's about the reader's intentions for reading a narrative.
Nevermind whether the writer wants to deceive. Does the reader want to deceive himself?
Deleted userJanuary 14, 2024 at 16:24#8722260 likes
the writers never having thought it to be an objective statement of the facts, but a mix of fact and fiction to advance a narrative
The Iliad comes to mind; where the war likely happened but the writers did not actually think that the Acheans fought against Apollon and Ares in the battlefield.
I post from a phone sometimes. It’s horrible, but—in my experience—no more horrible than posting anything on a phone. Relative to other sites and apps, the mobile experience for TPF seems pretty not bad to me.
What’s the problem in particular?
The problem? Fingers and hands too big. I'm on a classic desktop keyboard right now, so, easy typing.
But other than that, the post edit function doesn't work from a phone, nor the reply function (the quote function does). Also, the size of the text is very small. Obviously, it can be enlarged with the two-fingers function, but some other websites allow for making the letters bigger altogether, without the need for scrolling left and right.
Not sure whether any of this is just due to my phone.
I post from my phone in most cases, and I never have a problem in particular. With the only exception of not being able to use cursive.
Of course you can use cursive, you just write the tags manually, or mark the text and add the automatic tags for bold, and then change the b to an i.
I think I'll have to quit the forum altogether.
— baker
NO, por favor, don't do that.
I might literally go for greener pastures. I want to do something like this with our garden:
I don't have much time for the forums anyway. I don't know how you guys manage it, with full-time jobs and families and households. I just can't keep up. It's frustrating. I would love to read and post more, but I just can't find the time, and come evening, I'm so tired I usually pass out around 8PM.
javi2541997January 14, 2024 at 17:49#8722470 likes
Of course you can use cursive, you just write the tags manually, or mark the text and add the automatic tags for bold, and then change the b to an i.
Thank you, Baker, my mate.
Do you like steak and Barbastro pink tomato? Because this is what I will have for supper this night, and you are invited to my home.
I guess you have already tasted Barbastro tomato, but just in case, here you have a very indicative and striking picture:
Thank you, Baker, my mate.
Do you like steak and Barbastro pink tomato? Because this is what I will have for supper this night, and you are invited to my home.
Lol.
I guess you have already tasted Barbastro tomato, but just in case, here you have a very indicative and striking picture:
No, I probably haven't. I grow tomatoes, but it's too cold/the growing season too short for such large tomatoes as Barbastro. I grow varieties with small to middle-sized fruits, because they are the only ones that have enough time to grow here. Up until some twenty years ago, it was perfectly possible to grow large-fruit varieties of tomatoes, the growing season was more than sufficiently long. But not anymore. In the spring, the cold lasts well into May, and comes back already in August. Add to this the now usual torrential rains, and it's just not a tomato-friendly climate anymore. And tomatoes grown under plastic in a hothouse are just not good.
We call those Heirloom tomatoes in America, although I'm sure there are specific names for specific ones. On the east coast they're only in season from around August through maybe October. When they're good, they're incomparably better than out of season tomatoes. Many foodies refuse to eat out of season tomatoes, and for good reason. I'm a foodie, but I'm also a garbage disposal, so I still eat them out of season.
Tonight some friends and I are having a pizza making party. I made dough last night which will have fermented for about 24 hours once the festivities commence. This is only my second time trying to make pizza dough from scratch. It's risen beautifully and looks pretty good. Fingers crossed. I made a cooked tomato sauce from real San Marzano tomatoes (canned), olive oil, onion, garlic, salt, pepper, garlic powder and dried basil. The toppings I'm bringing are basic low moisture mozzarella, sweet soppressata, Portobello mushrooms, Calabrian chilies, and Pecorino Romano. I shall report back to my fellow shoutbox food scholars with new knowledge.
Add to this the now usual torrential rains, and it's just not a tomato-friendly climate anymore. And tomatoes grown under plastic in a hothouse are just not good.
I understand. Don't watch "El Ejido" on YouTube. You will have nightmares this night if you do so...
javi2541997January 14, 2024 at 19:46#8722930 likes
That implies that what was described as being sensitive, but controlled sensitivity, is not really being sensitive at all, but actually being insensitive.
I can't see how. Guess I was wanting to know how...
For dinner tonight I mixed this concoction in a gallon jug I got at the pharmacy. It clears the gut for a colonoscopy. It's slightly viscous and lemony.
To be honest, it's substandard cuisine, but I don't have the heart to tell the gastroenterologist.
No concerns. Just a routine old person gut check.
Deleted userJanuary 14, 2024 at 20:49#8723250 likes
These questions are either trolls, or reposted troll questions by Quora bots to keep the site alive. Quora bots also make up their own stupid questions, but they are not that dumb.
Is there much of a pizza scene in Madrid? I assume it's Neapolitan style if so?
It's not as big - or important - as other cities like NYC. We have tapas, and this is what the people demand the most. Also, I think Asian food has settled down pretty well in Madrid. But, again, it's not even close to NYC. You even have your own Chinatown. London, too... we haven't reached that level yet. And yes, most of the pizzas here are Neapolitan style.
Also, I think Asian food has settled down pretty well in Madrid.
That's cool. Off the top of my head I know of three different Chinatowns in NYC, but a quick google search tells me there are actually nine. I'm not sure I totally agree that some of these areas have what constitutes a Chinatown, but I'm no expert.
I hope you get a chance to visit NYC at some point and try the pizza, if you haven't already. I'm biased but it's worth the hype to me.
Seconded, in a very forthright fashion.
Tony's on Knickerbocker and Empire are some of hte best I've ever had. That said, I purposely sampled 30 pizzerias in NYC. I cannot remember htem all LOL.
Thirty is pretty impressive. I haven't had that Tony's, although I think you might mean Knickerbocker and Greene. For old school slices my favorites include Di Fara (the original location), Luigi's in South Slope and Joe's (whichever location; they're all consistent). I'm not sure how recently you visited, but there's now a wave of "new school" slice shops making "elevated" NYC style pizza. Some of it is really good but I have mixed feelings. For that style my favorites are L'Industrie and Fini.
Reply to Noble Dust Tonys at Knickerbocker and Dekalb. From what i can tell, they just play Goodfellas all day every day haha
I came immediately after Trump's election. Late 2016. Unsure i copped any of these 'elevated' versions. I did have a couple that I did not enjoy and may have been of that style.
Unfortunately, one of these was Amadeus' on 8th and 50th ... how ironic.
Late 2016. Unsure i copped any of these 'elevated' versions.
The trend started after that, so doubtful. L'Industrie was one of the earlier ones and it opened in 2017. It really only became a thing after the pandemic. I haven't heard of Amadeus, but it looks pretty blah.
Reply to Noble Dust Pizza is a funny food. In Australia there are a number of boutique pizza providers that try to be clever with the idea (truffle cream, goats cheese, eggplant, rocket). There are also usual delivery chains which do terrible, soggy, cheesy, stoner pizza. There are chains which have a go at NYC style pizza (thin crust, few toppings and very oily) Then there are suburban parlors that do old school pizza (like those we got in the 1970's), which can also be nice if the ham isn't that processed shit many places use. There's a restaurant near me that does good 'gourmet' pizza, but good pizza in Melbourne costs $25. For than money I can get an Indian thali dinner with 4 curries.
Deleted userJanuary 14, 2024 at 22:58#8723720 likes
Edit: Removed, quoting a confusing post I made a while ago.
Reply to Noble Dust Did you submit a report on your previous pizza making party? Who attended, what was discussed, what intelligence was gained, what assignations were made, and incidentally, what was the pizza like?
Reply to Noble Dust I have eaten a few good pizzas. Great food at affordable prices is hard to find in Minneapolis. How much should I spend on travel to New York City in order to have several slices of truly great pizza before I die?
I just want to say, a lot of the reason this place is great isn't necessarily the users (though there are some with that combination of thoughtful, respectful, even in disagreement), etc. But the real reason is that the Plush Forum format is actually very good, perhaps excellent. That is to say, the easy layout of the threads (you don't have threads imbedded in threads like in some "other" notable forums), the ease of quoting, the ability to see mentions and links and replies, etc. Sometimes the forum format makes other settings prohibitive.
So it’s more mechanics than anything that makes the forum. I cannot say it’s the pleasant cast of characters, per se. The tenor is destructive feedback. Contempt foremost, unless you agree of course.
I'd question that. I doubt the suggestion that feedback, (not part of a larger conceptual argument and thus not "feedback" per se), short of ad hominem is "destructive".
We engage, attack, and destroy one another's arguments or theoretical beliefs, not one another. As in not one another's character or personal morality and beliefs, though the last two often will naturally become affected, questioned, or challenged in some way- that's unavoidable in a discussion of opposing views about topics so fundamental to human understanding and existence. We're not arguing about who's car is faster or where the best places in town to get a pizza is. What's at stake, is far, far more ever-reaching and consequential.
I might say, perhaps rarely, something along the lines of "Only an imbecile would think otherwise" if and only if that sentence is immediately preceded by a claim, of my own, I would either defend with my life or participate in an event that creates above nominal risk to my life if said claim were to be incorrect or fundamentally flawed. Very few people, flat out insult one another directly, at least outside of the political threads..
[hide="Reveal"]ie. "No this is why you're wrong and you're an asshat for thinking so." or something, I basically never see that. Those characters don't seem to last very long anyhow.[/hide]
Some things, beliefs, concepts that actually result in real world consequence and change are really that fundamental to one's not only understanding of the world but personal identity. No one likes to be wrong. No one (at least, one would hope) actually argues for or against an idea here unless they actually believe their own discourse. You can't just wake up one morning, go throughout your day, then be given reason everything (or at least a major part of) you knew or believed might be wrong, then go to sleep like a baby. That's just not how the mind works.
People have "styles" or "techniques" of arguing they often rely on, and sometimes these styles or methods can be perceived as fallacies to others. Sometimes they are, I'm sure. Plenty of times the person simply did not express their view in the best choice of words or metaphors and the two go off on some random personal tangent where the root argument has long fled the debate and just start ignoring one another from that point on. Which is unfortunate for the rest of us because some of us do actually learn a lot from others, even when those others happen to be wrong, which we all have been at some point and likely will be again in the future.
Some things, beliefs, concepts that actually result in real world consequence and change are really that fundamental to one's not only understanding of the world but personal identity.
Which is tantamount to one's being, assuming there is a genuine and deep commitment binding understanding and personal identity:
In history, mind makes itself by coming to know its own past. Since, in history, as opposed to science, the subject and object thought about are identical, knowing makes a difference to the object known. Both the historian's present experience and the past which is "incapsulated" in it are affected by the historian's knowledge of it. What is more, the historian's own mind undergoes a corresponding change. History is now only self-knowledge, it is also self making...Philosophy is the reflective moment of this experience in which the self-making process itself is made an object of knowledge. (Rubinoff, Collingwood and the Reform of Metaphysics)
schopenhauer1January 15, 2024 at 12:14#8724450 likes
Reply to Outlander
I’ve been on this forum and the one before it for a long time. I am very familiar with what you what you describe. What would you like me to say? Some people are fun to discuss things, even in disagreement, some people are exhausting. A good dialectic isn’t about agreement. I’ll have to come back and explain how it is some posters can be agreeable even if they disagree, if that makes sense.
javi2541997January 15, 2024 at 12:15#8724460 likes
But the real reason is that the Plush Forum format is actually very good, perhaps excellent. That is to say, the easy layout of the threads (you don't have threads imbedded in threads like in some "other" notable forums), the ease of quoting, the ability to see mentions and links and replies, etc.
I cannot say it’s the pleasant cast of characters, per se. The tenor is destructive feedback
I think it is not destructive, but aggressive. The tone of some users is at the same level as their ego. They quickly insult and disrespect your ideas in the following nanoseconds you disagree with them, and you can even read disgusting comments. What I have learned from these guys is just to ignore them. Fortunately, they are not the largest number and most of the folks here are cute, kind, handsome, etc. Don't suffer from a headache just because some users sign up here for discussing. I entered TPF to have fun and, fortunately, I made a lot of friends here who help me to improve my grammar and Jesus! I am more confident enough here than in 'real' life conversations.
It is crazy how heavily it rains in Madrid.
Time to eat: Spaghetti with tomato and jamón serrano.
schopenhauer1January 15, 2024 at 12:19#8724470 likes
Yeah I was trying to be cute by using “destructive”. Aggressive is a good one too. But destructive is illustrative because it’s often the antonym for “constructive feedback”. Meaning there’s a way to provide disagreement that perhaps causes less animosity and allows for fruitful dialectic of two sides.
javi2541997January 15, 2024 at 12:28#8724510 likes
Deleted userJanuary 15, 2024 at 13:22#8724630 likes
Reply to schopenhauer1 My opinion on what you brought up is that the format of the website would have been seen as nothing but "well done" back in the 2010s. It seems so great nowadays because since the late 2010s webdesign has taken a turn for the worse (hugely worse), where web designers seem to have been lobotomised, where they think that a web page needs to have the greatest amount of animations, details, shadings, buttons, pop-ups and what else — like this dumpster fire I came across recently —, instead of being clear and easy on the eyes — like TPF. Web designers nowadays think they are painting the digital Monalisa, instead of providing an experience for a user. This satirical website is iconic for the issue.
schopenhauer1January 15, 2024 at 15:43#8724900 likes
Reply to Deleted user
:lol: Thanks for the visuals on what NOT to do. But I think we even know very popular websites that are surprisingly primitive (not in the good "clean" interaction way either). I think just about every forum should follow the Plush level formatting for ease of use. I am surprised if they don't, other than it's legacy.
If I had to deal with nested threads within threads within threads. I think I would move on, for example.
I don't mind the minimal markdown of some forums. The one before this needed that. I still use it sometimes here, but there are ones that are extremely popular that mainly rely on it, and don't even have the quote feature of click, drag, quote.
So far as any man is a competent philosopher, his philosophy arises by objective necessity out of his situation....but situation and problem are unique, and hence no one philosopher’s system can be acceptable to another without some modification. That each must reject the thoughts of others, regarded as self-contained philosophies, and at the same time reaffirm them as elements in his own philosophy, is due not to causes in taste and temperament but to the logical structure of philosophical thought.
~Collingwood,Essay on Philosophical Method
Food for thought....
schopenhauer1January 15, 2024 at 16:21#8724990 likes
Me neither. Although I have no traumatic history with it. (Haha, I doubt you have it.)
In 2022, I bought a basil plant whose smell I love (haven't tasted it, though). It doesn't have the smooth leaves basil varieties usually have. It's not winter hardy, so I'm overwintering it indoors, successfully for the second winter now.
Deleted userJanuary 15, 2024 at 17:05#8725210 likes
So far as any man is a competent philosopher, his philosophy arises by objective necessity out of his situation....but situation and problem are unique, and hence no one philosopher’s system can be acceptable to another without some modification. That each must reject the thoughts of others, regarded as self-contained philosophies, and at the same time reaffirm them as elements in his own philosophy, is due not to causes in taste and temperament but to the logical structure of philosophical thought.
~Collingwood,Essay on Philosophical Method
Interesting. I wrote a text a few years ago, which today I hate, one of whose fragments runs alike:
It must be emphasised: philosophy itself is not something subjective and personal, it is only "personal" insofar as it is absorbed and possessed by people. The sciences (both natural and formal) are not subject to personal preferences or the like — as Epistemology and Ethics are — because they demand right and wrong, go through processes of falsification and substantiation, and can be bound by intolerant and rigorous methods — as Physics accepts only one answer for the gravitational constant of the universe or Chemistry the workings of covalent bonds. Metaphysics and Ethics, however, can be debated freely and there will be cases in which there is no absolute solution — the mind/body distinction, or the trolley problem. And these questions are reflected on and debated until their most valid answers are created, but in the end these answers are still influenced by each thinker's biases.
The text was translated to English with Google translate, so don't mind the poor style.
You, Pantagruel, say in your "Discourse on the Method":
Considering how many different opinions there are in it [philosophy] on the same subject — opinions held by learned people, but without there ever being more than one that is true —, [...]
javi2541997January 15, 2024 at 17:42#8725370 likes
I love to eat, but I am not good enough at thinking.
Precisely, I was arguing with my parents that although some pork steaks expire on January 5th, they can be eaten without any problem, and the ‘expiry’ date is a lie created by the owners of markets and food suppliers with the aim of forcing us to keep buying provisions endlessly.
I don’t know if we had a philosophical debate in my home, but I am 100 % sure that I will have the steaks for supper tonight.
Precisely, I was arguing with my parents that although some pork steaks expire on January 5th, they can be eaten without any problem, and the ‘expiry’ date is a lie created by the owners of markets and food suppliers with the aim of forcing us to keep buying provisions endlessly.
Not really. Generally around the world it is a government regulation based on food hygiene advice that perishable foodstuffs only keep for a certain number of days. If it is consumed after that date it might be off and cause illness. Here we also have a recommend a 'best before' date to allow for some flexibility. While it is true that meat might keep for a few days after the date advice, meat sometimes goes off before the 'use by' date too. This expiry date is always slightly arbitrary, but a reasonable guide in general.
Reply to Tom Storm Yep. As i understand it, the date has been 'brought back' as it were due to people feeling teh way Javi does and harming themselves. Pork and milk are obviously dangerous once past their dates - but then, most reasonable people can tell whether pork or milk is bad without needing a label.
javi2541997January 15, 2024 at 19:41#8725610 likes
Reply to Tom Storm You are right, Tom. I don't why, but I have been feeling conspiratorial recently. I think I am getting into Dostovieskian psychoanalysis too deep. Ah! Why have the Karamazov Brothers ended up in my hands? I was writing haiku and now this! Crazy how a person can mutate each year.
Deleted userJanuary 15, 2024 at 20:00#8725690 likes
@Ciceronianus
I read the first thing that popped up on your blog, about mass hysteria. The people dancing for no reason and the nuns meowing. Do you think that those events were perhaps a case of what we today in the 21st century call an "irl shitpost", whose historical records depicted as more serious than it really was?
For example, watch this clip here, wouldn't you say it is a case of modern mass hysteria?
(sorry that it had to be tiktok, it is the only place the clip was available at)
We tend to think of humans of the past as quite serious, and obviously it differs from culture to culture, but considering ancient pagan Romans were drawing penises on walls and depicting their Christian friends as praying to a donkey, it is unwise to think humans back then were any less goofy than today, especially when back then there was not one sliver of the entertainment we have today, and there were no cameras to record people doing crazy stuff. It may be that people were much wilder and more fun than we are today, with more vibrant personalities and spontaneousness to their actions.
Reply to schopenhauer1 That philosophical thought - aka thought - is ultimately synthesizing in nature, yes. Collingwood has an interesting view on how the unity of a class is abstract, because individuals of a class are abstractly viewed as different instances of the exact same thing. But reality is more in the nature of a "world," where classes of things resemble, but each thing is an absolutely unique instantiation of individuality. The concrete universal.
Reply to javi2541997 At my local grocery store, there is a section with the discounted meat that is close to expiring. They place a big yellow "Woo Hoo!" sticker on it to entice you.
My wife is skeptical of it, but we've never gotten sick from Woo Hoo meat yet.
I got some lamb the other day that was rotten. There is no mistaking rancid meat. The smell will knock you down. I think the deadlines on the foods are conservative to be safe, but you're probably safe a few days late if it otherwise looks and smells ok.
Reply to javi2541997 Canned and dry packaged food is generally safe and wholesome way beyond it's "sell by", "best by", or "use by" date. An unopened can of beans or meat will last years beyond its expiration date. Rice and pasta stored in an air-tight container will most likely be fine 10 years later (assuming good storage practices). Opened packages of dry products will age a bit faster and may get insects in them.
Fresh fruit and vegetables are usually safe and wholesome for a period of time beyond their expiration date, but fresh fruit and vegetables do age and lose flavor and nutritional value as the days pass. Avoid moldy produce.
Meat and fish? Use your sensory apparatus. Does the meat pass the smell test? Any scent of putrefaction is a no-go. If the food feels slimy (when it doesn't normally feel that way) dump it. discoloration may indicate spoilage.
Milk? Spoiled milk and cream develope a sour flavor and curdle. It's readily noticeable. Pasteurized milk will not have significant pathogens (like tuberculosis), which wouldn't be detectable in the kitchen, anyway.
Frozen food? In my humble opinion, frost-free freezers degrade some frozen foods. The frost-free feature seems to result in some foods thawing and refreezing, which produces frost INSIDE its seal bag. This isn't poisonous, but it may ruin the food. A freezer should not be used as a long-term storage dump. The quality of food can deteriorate after a year in a freezer. Use whatever you put in there within a few months. Date packages so you can see that the dubious lamb chop has been in the freezer for 3 years.
Stinky cheese is smelly to start with. How does one tell when the blue cheese has spoiled? Best policy: eat it soon. Dried salt codfish starts out stinky. How would one know it had spoiled? How do you tell whether disgusting food is spoiled? Pork guts smell bad when fresh as a daisy.
I don't hear of large die-offs of human populations owing to expired sell-by food. Millions of people get sick from food that was contaminated on its way out of the fields and onto their plates. Some people do get sick from eating food that spoiled once they got it home. Food poisoning can be a very memorable experience.
CiceronianusJanuary 15, 2024 at 22:39#8726020 likes
Reply to Deleted user
I think it's quite possible for mass hysteria to take place now, and it may be that it would be considered less extraordinary than the examples of the past,simply because most everything we do is recorded for one reason or another. The laughing event of 1962 took place not all that long ago.
The penis in Roman times was considered a good luck charm, which is why I think you see it depicted so often in, for example, Pompeii and elsewhere. Of course it could be depicted for other reasons as well.
Reply to Deleted userReply to Ciceronianus Phalloi and phalli provided various divine services -- promoting fertility, but also protecting communities and marking boundaries, deterring thieves, protecting seafarers, and averting evil. The phallus was a symbol of both Dionysius and Priapus (Hermes too). Good luck could be gained by rubbing the business end of a convenient phallus.
Apparently protective phalloi had to be associated with the phallic gods. Just any old run of the mill hard-on wouldn't have any special powers.
One night in 415 BC some cunning person snapped off all of the phalloi in public places in Athens. This ultimately led to the downfall of Athen's democracy (but, naturally, not in a straightforward way).
Reply to BC At some point the Vatican removed many of the penises from classical sculptures they had and replaced them with plaster fig leaves. Somewhere in the Vatican is a crate full of dick.
Reply to Deleted user As would I. I was disappointed to find out it exists merely as an image and not an actual figurine :(
Deleted userJanuary 16, 2024 at 22:27#8728420 likes
:It's sort of interesting how modern philosophy has attempted to do without essences, but really you can't do without them. Linguistically, words need to have meaning.
javi2541997January 18, 2024 at 17:43#8733720 likes
I had just left the hospital where my father is inpatient. He had urethral surgery this morning. Everything went fine, but it was the first time that a member of my family was inpatient in a religious hospital. In addition, apart from having the average Christian charms, I saw - in my detective sense - very interesting things, and we experienced random moments which I never thought could happen to me:
1. The images of Jesus were the Orthodox version, not the Catholic one. We hardly see this 'version' in Spain.
2. The Russian embassy was in front of the hospital. Coincidence? No mate!
3. A random Asian nun came into our room, checking if everything was fine... she was so cute. I am shy, and I regret not asking her if she was from Japan.
A random Asian nun came into our room, checking if everything was fine... she was so cute. I am shy, and I regret not asking her if she was from Japan.
No no, you had a lucky escape. Falling in love with a nun is best avoided.
3. A random Asian nun came into our room, checking if everything was fine... she was so cute. I am shy, and I regret not asking her if she was from Japan.
What an endearing post.
You see a young woman who is entirely off limits, but who still captures your attention, and you want just to ask her an innocuous question so the two of you can have an innocent fleeting interaction, but you fear her just for the influence her beauty has over you, so you leave with the thought of what could have been.
If only you could take that gentleness and put it in a bottle and pour it over the world.
javi2541997January 18, 2024 at 19:24#8734310 likes
Reply to BC Thanks for your words. Fortunately, he will be at home tomorrow. I talked with him and the doc, and he said the blood is flowing through the urethra and kidneys correctly. So, there are no worries.
Europe's production of random nuns is extremely low, like close to zero. Same in North America. The last nuns I saw were from India.
I agree. When I got home and I told my mom the experience, she said to me: Our country no longer produces believers! Ha! I saw satisfaction in her eyes.
javi2541997January 18, 2024 at 19:25#8734330 likes
I know the hospital you’re talking about because I’ve been to that embassy a few times to get visas.
Plaza de los delfines and República Argentina metro! Jesus Christ! Jamal, maybe (just maybe), we met each other in the street, but we never noticed it. My school (and the houses of my mates) is near to that neighborhood: El Viso. The embassies of Ireland, Morocco, and Thailand are also there. What a coincidence! When I passed by the embassy before, it was closed, and I didn't see any light in the windows. I thought they were not working because of the stupid war and how my country is on Ukraine's side. :confused:
javi2541997January 18, 2024 at 19:28#8734360 likes
Reply to Hanover Honestly, what really influenced me is how she really cared about my father. More than the nurses who were around. I am not joking, and I think she is a true believer in Christ and the Bible.
But I have spent most of my life in El Viso. I studied there (Efeso New School, which is no longer working), and my friends live around. It is funny because when I attended Nebrija, I thought I would hardly come back, but most of my classmates were from El Viso too.
Reply to ManuelReply to javi2541997 Why don't you two arrange a meeting? 10 years ago I and another TPF member met; moderately interesting. More interesting was meeting a guy from England who was driving across the US with his father. We spent several hours talking, drinking, eating. The three of us never heard from each other again, which was fine. It was meant to be a fleeting experience,
Unless Manuel and Javi are psychopathic murderers, it's low risk. If you are both psychopathic murderers, you'll have something extra to talk about. Always a plus.
Reply to Deleted user An example of the rarity of nuns is that the provincial house of the Sisters of St. Joseph Carondelet a little ways from here is pretty much empty -- even their retirement facility is sparsely populated.
The sisters used to operate a string of a dozen large hospitals around the country, schools, a University and other services. The hospital facilities have been sold and the k-12 schools are either closed or under diocesan management, St. Catherine's University is going strong.
Deleted userJanuary 18, 2024 at 23:03#8735520 likes
An example of the rarity of nuns is that the provincial house of the Sisters of St. Joseph Carondelet a little ways from here is pretty much empty -- even their retirement facility is sparsely populated.
That is fine if you are talking about your region. Your original comment, however, says "North America", which turns your claim untrue.
Reply to Deleted user The claim is true. There were 12,836 nuns and Catholic sisters in Canada in 2015 and 42,000 nuns in the US -- a 76% decline from the peak in the 1960s. There are about 81 million Catholics in the US and Canada. 54,000 religious out of 81 million amounts to scarcity.
Mexico? Oddly, the usual searches in Google and Bing yielded no figures for the number of religious in Mexico. Odd. Apparently they didn't have to count them all. Now, no one will know how many nuns it takes to fill the Estadio Azteca.
So, despite not providing a number for total nunnery in Mexico, the fact is that nuns are rare in North America. In 1965 there were about 200,000 nuns in the US (plus many more priests and brothers than there are now) when the number of Catholics was about 48 million, 20+ million fewer than there are now.
Not to pick on black-robed sisters, Protestant denominations were also hemorrhaging members in the 1960s, and no denomination has recovered the lost members.
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 06:03#8736430 likes
I am very shy about arranging a meeting, honestly. My social-interaction skills are below zero. We can be turned out good mates, but you may think I am a freak in the beginning. Also, Manuel says he leaves on Wednesday, and I am busy as hell for both opositar and having my dad at the hospital.
So TPF has two known members in Madrid. I wonder if there are more. I wonder if any of the members of the Spanish Toyota Celica Club are also members of TPF. I wonder which city has the greatest number of TPF members. I wonder which two TPF members are physically closest and how close they are and where they are.
I am very shy about arranging a meeting, honestly. My social-interaction skills are below zero. We can be turned out good mates, but you may think I am a freak in the beginning. Also, Manuel says he leaves on Wednesday, and I am busy as hell for both opositar and having my dad at the hospital.
Whenever someone from TPF suggests meeting up or even just doing a video chat my first reaction is oh my God Jesus Christ NO! But that’s because of a congenital social anxiety, no reflection on the people here (if they really are people). These days, I may appear to have mastered this anxiety, since I can be the life and soul of a party and turn on the charm, but fundamentally I am always initially inclined against meeting anyone new.
That said, if I were in the same city as a TPF member I liked, I'd meet them. That said, I'll be in Edinburgh later this year. :fear:
3. A random Asian nun came into our room, checking if everything was fine... she was so cute. I am shy, and I regret not asking her if she was from Japan.
You should have spoken to her, that would have broken the spell. Or perhaps you already knew that, and that's why you didn't speak to her, in order to make the magic last.
Europe's production of random nuns is extremely low, like close to zero.
It's a highly competitive business by now. A monastic is expected to have a college degree, preferrably an advanced degree, be from the right socio-economic background, young and healthy enough etc.
All the more reason to meetup with TPF members if there is an opportunity. Developing skills takes practice. TPF members seem mostly harmless. Think of it like the short story competition - an opportunity to develop social skills.
I've met up with at least four different members of internet forums that I've been on, and been on phone and video calls with others. They have never been bad experiences, and have in all cases been experiences I have learned from.
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 11:42#8736960 likes
but fundamentally I am always initially inclined against meeting anyone new.
Exactly. And due to social congenital anxiety, I have never used apps for flirting. When I was in university, this practice was very common among my mates and I always wondered if they ever had anxiety about having a meeting with the virtual boy or girl they were talking to...
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 11:44#8736980 likes
By the way, now that @baker reminds everyone of the Asian nun of yesterday. She appeared again today, when we were leaving the hospital. She is from China, but she has been living in Spain since the 1990s...
She has a Chinese name, but she wants to be called Hermana Rosa.
My father tells me she gave him the orthodox Jesus I talked about yesterday in a cute cardboard. Look:
My father tells me she gave him the orthodox Jesus I talked about yesterday in a cute cardboard. Look:
It's actually Italian:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Damiano_cross
According to my minute of research, what you've identified is the style of the Eastern (Byzantine/Orthodox) church, which was influential in Italy in the middle ages, and which had also produced the Russian Orthodox church around the same time.
Deleted userJanuary 19, 2024 at 12:15#8737030 likes
Reply to BC It is the case that there is a low nun density in North America, not that the nun production is close to zero. Mexico produces many.
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 13:50#8737220 likes
According to my minute of research, what you've identified is the style of the Eastern (Byzantine/Orthodox) church, which was influential in Italy in the middle ages, and which had also produced the Russian Orthodox church around the same time.
It seems more likely that you actually wish to be liked by everyone and perhaps can't handle even just the thought of someone not liking you.
Wow. This could be the reason. But rather than wishing to be liked by others, my insecurity is based on being disliked due to my beliefs, ideas or who I am.
It seems more likely that you actually wish to be liked by everyone and perhaps can't handle even just the thought of someone not liking you.
— baker
Wow. This could be the reason. But rather than wishing to be liked by others, my insecurity is based on being disliked due to my beliefs, ideas or who I am.
In other words, you can't handle even just the thought of someone not liking you. It's simply a part of life that you're never going to be good enough for some people. The sooner you accept this, the better.
The quickest way to overcome "social anxiety" is to stop telling people you have it. Telling about it makes you look incompetent, unattractive, and people tend to feel negatively about you because of it. Instead, quit talking about it, and watch as things get better.
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 20:01#8737950 likes
Telling about it makes you look incompetent, unattractive, and people tend to feel negatively about you because of it.
I am literally incompetent and unattractive :lol: , and people tend to avoid me. Due to these characteristics, I have developed social anxiety and fear of young people and girls (or females, generally). My psychologist says I need group therapy, but I am never motivated enough to go.
Reply to javi2541997 I used to experience intense anxiety when I had to speak to a group in public. As a result, I was poor at public speaking. For some reason, at some point in middle age this fear dissipated. I did not become great at public speaking, but I didn't feel stage fright any more.
You are aware of your social anxiety, so you can do something about it. Group therapy? Individual therapy? I don't know how well or what kind of therapy would work for you. In any event, you are a smart guy, so you can figure out how to deal with the problem. There are (at least) two approaches to dealing with phobias or anxieties: One approach is to nibble around the edges of what bothers a person, gradually reducing the fear and anxiety. So, set small goals for social interaction and learn for yourself that you CAN interact positively with other people. Expect positive reactions from others. (Which, of course, you won't always get -- but that's just normal.)
Another approach is to dive into the deep end of the pool. Put yourself in a situation where social interaction is maximized--for a set period of time (like... 1/2 hour). A bar, a party, a church social event, etc. Then withdraw and reflect on how it wasn't so terrible. This is called "flooding". Usually this sort of thing is set up by a therapist, but one can do it on one's own. Sure, you will at first feel anxiety going into a lively social setting. The thing is, you will find that it isn't the end of the world.
"Cognitive Behavioral Therapy" is another approach. The core of this therapy is that you combine an effort to change the way you think about xyz (in your case, social interaction) and how you behave. It's a gradual approach and is fairly effective for lots of problems, so I hear.
You can start by thinking positive thoughts about yourself. Move on to saying (out loud) positive things about yourself (you don't have to do this in public, of course). But it is important to talk positively to yourself. Don't think / Don't say negative things about yourself. Say positive things about yourself, and say them with conviction. Fake it till you make it!
In the real world, everybody has significant flaws, and they manage to get along just fine, You can too!
javi2541997January 19, 2024 at 21:36#8738090 likes
Reply to BC Firstly, I don't go to group therapy because I feel I will waste my time there, honestly. I remember that in the beginning of my therapy sessions I thought I would waste my time, but I needed to go because the psychiatrists and psychologists were the only people who could let me take Bromazepam. So, I decided to go. I don't like to answer questions and speak about my failures, or how I feel, but it is interesting when I draw something on a paper. The last week was a house. I feel these activities are more entertaining.
On the other hand, I have never seen social anxiety and "nonsocial, unsocial, and social uninterest" as a big issue, but when parents started to notice that it was impossible for me to establish basic social interaction. For example: I remember suffering a lot when I had to go to a birthday or the house of someone I didn't know enough.
I always thought "that's the way I am, I tend to not like people and they don't like me. Easy" My parents think I have a serious disorder, but they are already used to me.
If I haven't put into practice any approach, it is because I decided to accept my phobia, not overcome it.
Metaphysician UndercoverJanuary 20, 2024 at 13:24#8739180 likes
How so? Humans and Jesus are not in the same category. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.
The club you talk about is a club of one.
I thought Jesus was in the category of human, until he got kicked out, executed for claiming himself to be of another category. The act of kicking him out is what actually put him into, another category.
Want to join the club? Just be totally contemptuous and disagreeable toward the prevailing club, and you'll be exiled, shunned, kicked out and forced into a club of one. Then you'll be in a club of one, and the rest of us club-of-oners, Jesus included, will welcome you to the club of club-of-ones.
If I haven't put into practice any approach, it is because I decided to accept my phobia, not overcome it.
It would seem to me that if you have learned to accept and live with your phobia, that you have overcome it. Just because it has not gone away does not mean it still dominates you.
I have claustrophobia, but I got used to working down a mine where there are some very tight places you have to work in. I needed the job so I accepted that I am claustrophobia and went ahead with it. It was not easy and it did not cure me, but I was able to do the job.
Reply to Sir2u I have 'Acrophobia' - fear of heights. It is worse now than when I was younger, Being in a plane doesn't bother me -- but even thinking about being on the roof of the Sears Tower (or a 5 story building) and approaching the edge disturbs me. Is there a cure? There probably is, but it's easier to just stay off the roof of the Sears Tower, or any other building for that matter.
I tried walking down the Shining Path Trail of the Grand Canyon; I did not make it very far before I was overwhelmed by the vast abyss.
I used to find spiders and spider webs very disturbing. That phobia has lessened over time.
javi2541997January 20, 2024 at 19:06#8739790 likes
Reply to Sir2u The same thing happens to me. I'm not really sure if I have overcome my social phobia, but I am more able to face the problem and speak to people. It is not that difficult. However, it depends on the circumstances and context. If I am used to a specific group of people, maybe I can handle the fear, but there's no way I would try meeting up with new people!
I do too. I hike often, but never go out near the ledge, and I can't even watch when other people go out on overhanging rocks. I literally have to look away.
I could never be Spiderman.
I also don't do amusement park rides. The heights are a problem as is the motion sickness.
I don't have social phobias though. I have no problem with public speaking, singing loudly on the subway, asking random people questions, or confronting people who need confronting. The fun I lack in high places I more than make up for with unexpected public displays.
I found that my fear of heights has increased with age as well, and my lack of social concern has also.
Comments (61561)
I fixed the bezel but the fix fizzled. Phase is a noun, faze is a verb. Sleazy is an adjective. Zeal. Zero. Zinc. Zap. Fuzz. Fuzzy Wuzzy.
Thanks for the tip. I just moved all my money into a Toyota vehicle portfolio. I have an amazing inventory now. Come by and I'll get you into that dream car you've been wanting for some time now. I do dealer financing where no one is turned down regardless of credit. The first 100 buyers get a free undercoating, the perfect protection for those salty winter roads.
Come see me! You won't regret it!
Did you get any electric ones? Did you know EV stands for "electrified vehicle?"
All I have are 2010 Corollas, all in various states of disrepair. Most have problems with the titles. Turns out I'm not at all a reputable dealer.
dammit!
No, I'm not sure.
Yeah, with a couple of friends I use it for guys who have taken too much trouble over their outfit. We generally accuse them of getting their stuff from a boutique called, Mr Snazzy Cunt.
How boorish. Can a man not be snazzy without fear of abuse?
My brother, who--and this might be relevant--moved to Australia 15 years ago, mocks me for wearing V-neck t-shirts, because he says they "look gay (not that there's anything wrong with that)".
Sounds like my brother. He's a black socks on the beach kind of guy.
Yeah, seems more likely that most know better than to encourage Hanover.
That is why I preferred to parody my perceived aspects of him in the 'Rhubarb Rhubard' clip, I posted earlier. Of course, such comedy creations can parody aspects of other shoutbox posters, not just Hanover.
I found myself connecting almost every character in that vid clip, to a shoutbox regular.
I think a 'spitting image' episode of all the TPF shoutbox regulars would be a TV comedy hit!
I wear V necks that have such deep V cuts that my pecker hangs over the top of the V. My brother doesn't think it's gay. He's very supportive. Sometimes he'll even use his pinkie to push Mr. Willie back under my shirt. So helpful!
It's the snazzy little purse I sling over my sassy little self that gets him all jazzy to were he says "Girlfriend, I don't even! What side of the fence are you even on?"
I haven't clicked on your links, but as long as I know you spend your time looking for videos that remind you of me, I can rest assured that I remain relevant.
In other news, if you want to learn more about me and the types of shirts I wear, see the post above.
I do not know if that would have happened. What I nonetheless know is that pigeons are sophisticated animals: They were used as messengers in ancient times, and now they are used for spying purposes. I attempt to explain - and warn - you folks to be careful when pigeons appear around you, randomly.
Once when I was a kid, I wasn't eating very much at dinner, so my grandmother told me that I ate like a bird. I then started slamming my nose down into my food like a bird. She then told me not to waste food because kids in Africa were starving. I think she told me that because that was what all grandmothers were taught to say about wasting food.
Anyway, the face slam into the mashed potatoes killed. The crowd called for an encore.
I rented a beautiful farm, way out in the country where I did not see any pigeons, as they are city birds. The principal beauty of that farm was that it supported me very well with a hugely significant grow-op. One day I noticed a pigeon hoping around the barnyard and when I approached, it took refuge in the barn. From that day on I was subsumed by paranoia, everything I saw or heard indicated an imminent raid. I was forced to leave the country and seek refuge myself. % True story *
* Despite endless philosophical discussions concerning the meaning of "truth", epistemologists insisting that "true" must be used in a true way, Hanover demonstrates through his Shoutbox incursions that he is the ultimate professor of the true use of "true".
Yeah, I understand you, mate. If I were you, I couldn't have slept at night. Pigeons can be imposing animals oftentimes.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I absolutely believe in your story, and although we use a lot of irony in the shoutbox, it is obvious that what we say is true in most cases. Regarding your story, I have a question. Are you Dutch? Because when I found out about 'grow-op,' Microsoft said that this comes from Dutch.
On the other hand... According to my searches, 'grow-op' is related to cannabis. But I am fully aware that you are a formidable citizen who respects the law. Were you referring to winter squashes with 'grow-op'... Right?
I don't think respect for the so-called law is relevant. What is at issue is respect for enforcement. I don't know what those spying pigeons see through their glass eyes. Didn't they see weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Spying indicates imminent trouble, prepare yourself.
I told my mom to give me an envelope so I could send my leftovers to China, where all the starving people apparently were.
I'm presently sitting in the emergency room with a swollen tongue from an allergic reaction. They gave me epi and a bunch of steroids. So, your life could be worse. That's the point of the story.
They look like they're constantly surprised.
It is, mate! Of course, it is relevant to be on the side of the law. For example: I wanted to plant an apple tree next to my house, but the place I chose turned out to be part of the neighbor's property. I decided to respect the law and plant it within my own boundaries. I slept well that day, realizing that I am an honorable citizen. :smile:
As each of us can create meaning and purpose, we are all relevant.
I'm totally irrelevant.
One should steer clear of unkempt women.
I always thought doves were country pigeons, just not as snazzy.
I don't think that was it.
Your mother bought some sketchy off-brand envelope at a dollar store. The glue was made out of god knows what--maybe pangolin. Pangolins are nothing but trouble--Covid, for instance. Next time get a QUALITY envelope from the USPS. They sell envelopes with pangolin-free glue.
And a star in your crown for sending food to the starving Chinese iPhone 15 factory workers.
A lot of deer are killed on the side of the road and they're perfectly edible. I will take your advice with the pangolin-free glue and send the roadkills to China. And then I'll make a tik tok series about going to China to visit with the recipients and see what delicious meals they made out of it, how it really made a difference in their lives, and how you can help fund this service to mankind. I can't believe nobody thought of this yet.
Christmas gift for the wife.
Does everyone in your life agree with that?
Got yourself a new job there ain't yer. Cleaning doggy poop off the carpet. Cute little bugger though.
He’s been surprisingly good so far. Goes when I let him out. Granted, I’ve had to do so what feels like 50 times…still.
Is it a job? Yes. Now it’s the weekend— so wifey can take over. :lol:
Just read this somewhere else then came back here to see your reply.
According to extensive Google research, the difference between the two is that the dove is a friendly country bird, and the symbol of many good things, like peace, love, honesty, and tranquility, while the pigeon is a city bird and a nasty pest, perhaps as the result of human induced inbreeding which dates back thousands of years. The city bird is the symbol of many bad things, dirt, filth, noise, hate, and spying. However, there is no "scientific" difference between these two symbols, so you'll never really know if you're looking at a friend or a foe. The dove/pigeon is a master of disguise.
That's one of the strategies -- take the dog out every 20 or 30 minutes and praise them lavishly for each act of excretion. Some dogs are easier to train than others.
Eventually the human in the relationship will get sick and tired of going outside 2 or 3 times an hour. Hopefully the dog will be housetrained by then. Dog training works best when one really has nothing very pressing to do. Then you can heap attention on the dog which they will appreciate--for a short period of time until they need more attention. "Short" might mean 5 seconds for a young dog.
Luckily I had the day off. 5:30 was earlier than normal for me though.
Just gotta learn to pace yourself. This is the second time I’ve done this in a year, so I knew I needed to hit the gym and eat well just to keep up. It’s also harder with another dog who’s basically still a puppy herself.
All of it enhances patience, empathy, etc. I’m probably getting too old for this. But he really is fucking adorable.
25000 years ago, some smart wolves saw that 'fucking adorable' would get them a lot farther in this world than howling and snapping. And so it is. We serve the dog.
"Dogs make us human" Temple Grandin said. It's too late (I feel) for me to get another dog, have always enjoyed them immensely.
Never too late! Wait…how old are you?
How can you just leave me standing
Alone in a world so cold?
Prince: "When Doves Cry"
What's a pigeon problem?
So true. Obviously, due to the difference in life expectancy, getting a dog equals dealing with the death of your dog. Definitely something to consider.
No. My tongue isn't swollen anymore but the skin on the palms of my hands is peeling off. Jees!
I don't think you have been doing it correctly! But it's still all relevant.
An infestation.
To what?
If you take two rabbits to Australia, you'll eventually have billions of them. What's going on there?
That's what I'm saying. Take an animal to Australia and the situation gets all bent out of frame. It's probably something mystical.
I think this is the most likely explanation.
They spy on us and currently work for the government, sharing our personal data...
It is outrageous, isn't it? The European Parliament just passed a draft that will regulate the use of ChatGPT, but they are not aware of how dangerous the pigeons are for our privacy.
Right? I thought pigeons, like can fly from place to place. Not that they "infested" a single location.
Ok, I'll keep playing for now!
To who you are and what you want. To your ability to demonstrate personal intent. To your legacy. To how your life impacts others. The word is so important that 'relativity' is part of probably the most important theories we have, about the universe we exist in and experience.
Quoting frank
To what Frank? and how do you know?
If you prefer to just play the abstraction game rather than answer my questions then I can play that game very well, imo, but it's a very old and rather tired game and very few people are any good at it.
My pigeon problems are typically like those of Tim Minchin:
Quoting LuckyR
In this modern era of remote pigeoning, a location is not strictly necessary. For example, consider the pigeon infestation on TPF.
It's called roosting, hence the fortune being made by companies around the world putting up spikes and bird netting to stop them from roosting in public locations. Pretty soon you have hundreds using your building as a home base, flying in and out of open windows, landing on tables, looking for food and as @javi2541997 says, they also often report on our movements to government and the tax department and can make our lives a living hell.
So if a cat prowls a "roost" building, what happens?
Well, if they are appropriately trained in counterespionage by the CIA, then there's a fair chance for a small victory. But overall the pigeons win. No cat can climb up a sheer brick wall unless retrofitted with gravitation field manipulators using technology we obtained from the Roswell alien ship. I think you have to sign a C11 form for access; cats don't have that authority.
Got it. I can't believe that slipped my mind.
:rofl:
I am jealous of the folks who can afford a grave. How lucky they are!
The sound of the pigeon:
They have different voices, and I much prefer the voice of the mourning dove, which I hear every morning, but I don't think that's why they're called mourning doves.
I'm only 30 chapters in, but if I had to take a shot for every time the author made a reference to sweat or perspiration being on someone's brow I'd be in some sort of medical coma by now. Minus the typical plot of love, betrayal, and revenge, the whole tale up to now is basically a saga of various sweaty men performing various sweaty deeds in varying states of fortune and misfortune.
Really though, it's a marvelous read. Thanks to whomever recommended it in the literary discussion thread. I am currently following along to the free (public domain) audio book version on YouTube. A very welcome and stimulating change to mindless video games or television when not in the mood to go anywhere or do anything. Great to enjoy during mealtime as well.
Quoting LuckyR
et al
From Four Saints in Three Acts
by Gertrude Stein 1927
Pigeons on the grass alas.
Pigeons on the grass alas.
Short longer grass short longer longer shorter yellow grass. Pigeons
large pigeons on the shorter longer yellow grass alas pigeons on the
grass.
If they were not pigeons what were they.
If they were not pigeons on the grass alas what were they. He had
heard of a third and he asked about if it was a magpie in the sky.
If a magpie in the sky on the sky can not cry if the pigeon on the
grass alas can alas and to pass the pigeon on the grass alas and the
magpie in the sky on the sky and to try and to try alas on the
grass alas the pigeon on the grass the pigeon on the grass and alas.
They might be very well they might be very well very well they might
be.
Let Lucy Lily Lily Lucy Lucy let Lucy Lucy Lily Lily Lily Lily
Lily let Lily Lucy Lucy let Lily. Let Lucy Lily.
Pigeons have clearly been a problem for a long time. Gertrude Stein has been nonsensical for about as long,
I haven't read Gertrude Stein yet, but I think that poem is more aesthetic than many haikus I've ever read.
The score for Stein's opera is by Virgil Thompson, one of my favorite composers. He uses folk melodies to great effect in his works. He was, by the way, one of America's great gay composers (Stein was also gay). Here's his score for the 1936 depression era documentary for the ed States Resettlement Administration, "The Plow That Broke the Plains".
Not just any plow could be used to bring the American plains under cultivation. It had to be a sharp edged steel plow that could cut and turn the extra thick turf of previously uncultivated grassland. But the documentary is not all about plow design. It also about how the plains were wrecked by bad agricultural practices and greed.
Also known as The Dust Bowl, depicted in The Grapes of Wrath.
The new Americans (Europeans who overran everything) now know that the "rain follows the plow" theory is false, and that this part of North America is susceptible to significant drought. So there are many techniques in place to mitigate the effects. These include a return to native grasses which are hardy to the conditions, cover-cropping, and no-till planting. Hopefully we'll avoid a return to that combination of greed and bad agriculture, known in Canada as The Dirty Thirties.
OIGA USTED.
Who has not been overrun at least once in its existence?
As for Europeans overrunning everything... the NE Asians beat us to it by about 20,000 years, give or take a couple of millennia. Why didn't they subject the plains to the plow? Per Jerod Diamond (Guns, Germs, & Steel) they didn't have any draft animals--no horses, no oxen. Buffalo are not tractable, so they were not candidates for domestication. Without animal power, they couldn't develop extractive technology the way the people did in Europe and Asia. If they could have, they would have.
None the less, the First People here did well and were easy on the land.
So, if we need somebody to blame, we should blame the horses and the ox. If they hadn't been willing to cart us around, Eurasians would have lived easy on the land too. We were very short-sighted when we began to cooperate with horses and oxen. Little did we know what road to hell they would drag us down!
And where are we all from, anyway? Well, Africa first. Skip over a few years, and some of the people living in Central Asia decided to Go West. Others decided to Go East. They became the dominant populations in Europe and Asia. Who is going to ultimately come out on top (China or Euro-America) has yet to be decided. If, of course, anybody comes out on top.
It may be that everybody will end up on top of the junk heap, as global warming reduces the planet to a swamp.
Meanwhile, it's a beautiful sunny day in the upper midwest, appropriately chilly.
I wonder what long-term affects, if any, the late-Roman barbarians invasions (Visigoth, Goth, Burgundian, Vandal, Suevian, etc.) had on Spain. Who were the Iberian natives before the Phoenicians, Greeks, and Romans arrived? Were the Islamic invaders Berbers or Arabs?
I've been reading Peter Heather's history of the Roman Empire's decline in the west. At this point the Romans have lost control of (and tax revenue from) North Africa (thanks to the fucking Vandals) and most of Spain. Britain has dropped out of the Empire.
The next chapter is on Atilla the Hun, whose base of operation had moved west from the Steppes of Asia to what is now Hungary.
An American political description of a conservative is to say "He's somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun."
The Huns had at times been allies of the Romans, but that was when Rome was still fairly powerful. Now, 450 a.d., with the Western Empire falling apart, the Huns have big plans for more major acquisitions.
The Huns are at least partly responsible for the Vandal, Visigoth, et al invasions, pushing into various Barbarian territories and driving the natives out.
Well, we still have laws and customs which come from barbarian invasions. For example: the way we manage goods and debts, of the marriage, and the provinces of Castile. It is important to notice that the Visigoth and Goth had a big impact on the crown of Castilla and León, but they didn't have any presence on the Mediterranean boundaries where their people kept ruling by Roman law and customs.
Quoting BC
We had our own native folks! They were called Iberians, but other authors called them celtiberians. They disappeared due to the overrunning of the Roman and Greek empires, and we don't know what language they spoke or which customs they had yet. The brief information about the native people of Iberia comes from Roman historians. It is even difficult to examine what they looked like. Nevertheless, we can have a basic idea thanks to the Lady of Elche. An iberian person seemed to look like this: Lady of Elche: The mysterious statue brought to life.
The 'pre' history of Europe is shrouded in the mists of time, and the topic of where they came from, who came first, who brought what, and what language did they speak take on a very disputatious quality. One author says, "The Celts brought agriculture." Another author declares, "No, that's wrong..."
The Emperor Claudius (ruled from 41 to 54 a.d.) studied the Etruscans, who had been crushed and/or assimilated by the Romans 300+ years earlier.
Hope you are having a good day. Sun going down here, now.
watch this
Oh; I see. The same videos don't come up after the linked one plays.
It was supposed to be cracked eggs.
I am not having a good time recently, but you know, some periods are better than others. I like December, but I dislike Christmas; it makes me feel more stressed than regular months.
Alpha cock?
I’m making honey, oat, and nut bars for an afternoon snack. I've been thinking of ways to use the huge amounts of Bashkortostani honey we’ve got.
I thought of raising bees, but I heard they would yield 20 pounds of honey per season, which is slightly over the ounce I usually require
Instead I've raised wasps, bred selectively for pleasant disposition and eventual adoption to a forever family. Let me know if you have an interest.
Got any of these?
vena cava
My wife has already told me that she will not deal with the bees once I stop tending to them, so I can't start that hobby until I have someone who is ready to step up when I get diverted.
If you want to move to podunk Georgia and serve as my beekeeper and manservent, I will consider your resume. I have a pair of glasses I tried to send to you but they keep coming back so I can give those to you when you show up at my door. The postmaster marked under your name on the package "Vagabond - Undeliverable."
That was an insightful comment. Thank you so much.
Lots of people share your feelings -- positive about December, stressed out by Christmas. For many people, the stress comes from the difference between their warm, fuzzy, twinkling light cinnamon-scented childhood memories of Christmas, and the cool, scratchy, naked light bulb dangling from the ceiling debt-scented adult experience of Xmas.
Christmas is supposed to be an intensely happy time, so get with the program, damn it. It's our civic duty to be happy at this time of year, whether we like it or not! Thank heavens it only happens once a year.
While Christmas Stress Disorder can last a lifetime, some people make an effort to distance themselves from Christmas, cutting out certain practices like intense shopping, excessive gift giving, holiday entertaining, partying, and so on.
So feel free to dial down the volume of Christmas expectations to suit yourself.
My theory is that I like it because I have no stress with it. If I don't see my family, if I eat a PB&J, or I get no presents, I don't really care. I have no fond childhood Christmas memories, no expectations of togetherness, and no sacred traditions. It's a lot like Memorial Day for me. It's a day I don't have to work, I can eat certain foods, maybe I can watch a parade, or whatever.
It would be like if you decided to celebrate Hannukah and you went out and bought a menorah, fried some latkes, and put on some music. It'd be fun, but you wouldn't care if you forgot to do it one year.
The key is to take the Christ out of Christmas and make it just another day with lights and food.
There's a word for that, it's Xmas.
After being retired over twenty years all holidays are forgettable, just days others get off work.
So many jealous feelings were invoked at once upon reading this.
Christ isn't the problem, as it happens.
As children we were/are revved up and become overly excited about Christmas. As we grow up, we try to recapture that state--as we remember it. What we remember isn't the same experience we actually had, and we drive ourselves a bit crazy trying to recapture an elusive, and quite possibly false memory.
Christmas, as it has been done by American Christians, is centered around children. Nothing wrong with that. But as the children grow up, they wish they could be the child around which they were the center.
Mentally healthy, mature, adults (especially if they do not have children) avoid trying to relive their childhood memories.
Thank you for this. It validates my parenting style where I avoided providing my kids with memories they wanted to relive so as to not burden them with later sentimentality.
Per Schopenhauer, this is all yet another way to suffer for everyone concerned. Parents exhaust themselves generating a replica of their childhood memories; their children aren't impressed. They don't get it. Parents try harder. Children resist more. It's a nightmare.
50 years on, parents in their dotage are bitter and resentful that their children don't bring them plates of holiday cookies they actually made themselves. On the other hand, the parents don't appreciate the holiday greetings with Santa emojis they texted to their parents. So it wasn't a $5 Hallmark card. Big deal. The aging parents' adult children are busy people. When they do visit the old folks, it's a festival of passive aggression.
In seeing them now, I see two of the most frugal human beings known, with my oldest having survived off a 5 pound ham for a week or so. He carried bits of the pig in his pocket and would eat chunks like a confederate soldier when he grew weary.
I think this is all a much larger battle with capitalism and consumerism I have waged. I don't take the approach that it should be destroyed or reformed, but I take the approach that if you don't like it, don't engage in it. It's really freeing when you learn that most forms of luxury are really just someone else's fabricated definition of sophistication. Of course, I say that because I'm inherently cheap and that argument supports it.
I put twinkly string lights all over my house. That's cheap luxury. You can get string lights where each light looks like a tiny manta ray.
Well, when I was a kid it was normal for children to go outside, totally unsupervised, and do whatever. Did our parents approve of us playing in the storm sewer? We didn't ask. The creek we swam in was far from pristine, it being the watering hole for numerous cattle. We mostly survived all sorts of hazards. One or two here and there didn't, but apparently everyone thought the risks were reasonable.
Exactly. On holidays when I was around 11 my mum gave me a sandwich to take away and said, 'See you at dinner.' I left the house at 8am, on my bike, and came back at 6. We got into drains, rubbish dumps, abandoned houses, building sites, up trees, you name it. Somehow we survived: falls, cuts, traffic, stray dogs, and Catholics...
Quoting BC
I disliked Christmas even as a small child. It was creepy and I have had a lifelong aversion to compulsory celebrations. I hated the songs, the movies, the food, the cheesy plastic decorations, the strange men in red suits, the phony bonhomie and the piss-poor presents (for the most part) and the closed shops and businesses and the general shrillness of the period.
It was a bitch to get the heavy metal cover off so you could jump down.
You seem like you were a pleasant child.
My friends and I used to explore the storm sewer system that ran underneath a park and a catholic school next door. Our parents certainly did not know about this.
:D
This paragraph resonated with me.
I am such a grinch, at heart.
While I agree the kitsch and commercialization suck, I will mention that there is such a thing as good Christmas music, but you have to look to old school sacred choral music. This is a bit of an outlier, but is an incredible piece of music by any standard:
You are one of the only witnesses then as to what the priests stored beneath the church. Do tell.
But most interesting to us were the abandoned farm, where there were many unfamiliar things including some dead sheep; the abandoned boatyard, which was falling apart and rather dangerous; and the building site that sprang up in place of the boatyard, where we precariously walked from wall to wall across boardless floors, balancing on the joists above deadly drops.
Like the other boomers and Gen Xers here, we were out on our own for most of the day. We camped overnight in the hills, put cans of beans on the fire and waited for them to explode. Sometimes we drank alcohol stolen from fathers. In a concession to the parents, we did usually go back home to give notice of our overnight absence if we'd decided to camp.
One hears people say that kids don't have these experiences any more, and that's my impression too.
And if it's right, going on about it like we're doing here is merely the stating of facts and should not be mocked by youngsters.
This was my favorite part, where you shifted from reminiscing about your youth to chastising the whippersnappers for their lack of appreciation of times gone by.
Those were heady times indeed. I've somewhat devolved since then, now incapable of concealing a chuckle when I think about genitalia.
I challenge you to not mention genitalia for a month.
Or to mention genitalia in every comment for a month.
You're saying I can't say genitalia for a month or that I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month or that I cannot say genitalia for a month and I can't say genitalia in every comment for a month?
You get to choose. Either:
1. You cannot mention genitalia for a month, or
2. You must mention genitalia in every comment for a month
The third stipulation would be superfluous as the first would automatically constitute the fulfillment of the third.
Quoting Michael
That would be an interesting bet to witness along with its peculiar effect on the community microcosm. No pun intended.
I liked how you accidently said it, as if you were talking down to the youngsters, calling them "my youngsters." Most great literature is created randomly, by monkeys striking keyboards. That's how I was created, in fact.
Another bit of clarification. Does the term "comment" relate only to posts here on TPF or does it relate to everything I say and write anywhere? I pretty much already mention genitalia either explicitly or by gesture in my every spoken comment (except when I'm in a school zone), so that won't change much for me. The hard part, and by "hard" I mean a pulsating erection, will be not to make any reference to genitalia at all for a month.
The only time I've gone a month without speaking about genitalia was the curious month I spent with genitalia in my mouth, obstructing my ability to either speak or write about the very thing I wished to speak and write about.
When I finally dislodged and was able to resume my life unstuck from the genitalia, I actually did spend another week or so before I resumed discussion on the topic. The month in captivity had taken me away from family and friends and I wanted to catch up to see what I had missed.
Hope I don't have any more months like that one, right?
Sounds like a good starting place for your short story entry if you don’t have one yet.
:hearts:
Quoting Hanover
Michael Praetorius, German composer, died 1621. Ere how a rose is blooming. Wonderful piece, but I agree the pace at which Warland led this performance is way too slow.
If you don't like Praetorius, you certainly won't like Pavel Tschesnokoff's Salvation Is Created, here performed by Voce8 in the St. Louis, Missouri basilica. The archdiocese clearly had more money when they built this pile than they have now. Tschesnokoff, died 1944, served as Imperial Russian and Soviet composer, choral conductor and teacher.
Oftentimes people limit their suggestions to those things people are interested in, but here you have advised me of what I would not be interested in and what you do not recommend I consider, and for that, I thank you.
Let the young ones mock all they want, they are the losers.
The vote is currently 51% to 49% to allow the change, with most votes aligning with typical geneti-ethnic-regional socio-econimic educational expectations, with genitalia assignment being the most predictable driver.
Anywho (a word also up for debate), lemme know your feedback so I can let the committee know how the Shoutbox thinks on this.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8umbKhw/
Ordinary Christmas carols get run into the ground when one hears them too often. In 2012, Minnesota Public Radio managed to run Ave Maria into the ground; seemed like they played it on the hour, every hour. Whence does Chanticleer hale?
See Chaucer.
In what ways? Most kids I know nowadays cannot function properly with internet connection.
I spent more than 20 years teaching high schoolers, and they are no where near as imaginative, questioning, nor animated to learn as before. I lost count of how many times in the past couple of years I was told "we don't need to know any of this stuff, if we need it one day we can google it"
Most of them prefer to imitate instead of create, criticize instead of critique and so many of them consider themselves to be so superior to older folks.
I am not saying all of them, that would be unfair. But the rest are mostly missing empathy to their surrounds or just don't care. And those that care so that they can have fun doing it are just as bad.
"People who don't know anything" will be much more easily fooled by what they find online. Children are not born with bullshit detectors; it takes wide reading, thinking, and some education to sharpen up one's BS detection skill.
ON THE OTHER HAND... WE older people should not expect younger people to know what or as much as we do (just as a general principle). Back in the 70s, we did a quick and dirty poll of students coming into the college library about the Holocaust. Quite a few students knew very little about it, or hadn't heard about it. Well, sure. These were mostly 18-20 years old. The Holocaust was not a freshman course then, and if they weren't born news junkies, they probably would not have heard much about it (this was at a Catholic college).
We'll have to wait a while to see how much learning and intellectual discrimination they develop in the future.
The article agrees in part and disagrees in part with laying blame entirely at the feet of the internet for children's reduced creativity. It lays blame as well on the school model that emphasis standardized testing. I see this problem at work with young employees as well. The answer not being on the page is a difficult reality for some. They think someone already has the solution somewhere to be found rather than coming up with it themselves.
The internet is a great resource for research, but research is about learning, not about locating someone's else's learning and trying to mimic it. If you don't know why you're doing something you'll inevitably miss a step. It's like I tell employees when given a task, I can't list out all the duties, they're got to understand the purpose of the task.
My analogy (which is a dying animal of a reasoning skill - abstract comparison) is to compare tasks to a request of "throwing a party." I can't list everything that needs doing. I must assume you know we're going to need cups, chairs, invitations, etc., and if I overlook telling you each item, you're still responsible if it's missed, regardless of the fact that the email didn't itemize it, and regardless of what Google says parties consist of. You've got to stop and imagine what happens at parties and then do that. It's a shift from the way they've been taught.
I think the better employees are those who were forced by life circumstances to have figured things out without oversight and were often likely not the greatest students.
What did I learn from this? You don't have to judge a book by its cover. What appears to be a friendly place to discuss can be a dangerous place to end up lost in endless exchanges.
Time for tea and rest. Shall we stick the TV on? BBC documentaries are dead good.
Impressively informal English. However, in the UK we would usually say "stick the telly on".
You have no interest in what ways.
Before there were hand held screens there were much larger screens in every home, before which children (and adults) were/are often parked for long periods of time. Television has been "a vast wasteland" (per FCC chairman Newton Minor who just died this year at 97) for a long time. Most parents didn't see anything wrong with the many hours of crap they and their children were consuming. (OK, so granted, not every program that was ever on was terrible; there were some pretty good programs on. If not all of them were 'pretty good', quite a few of the so-so programs were not perfectly awful. But good or bad, a lot of time was spent passively absorbing the commercial messages and banal programs.
As Marshall McLuhan declared, "The medium is the message". Backing up one more layer, there is a reason why "media" (television first, later the small screen and its various apps) became so important. Post WWII society was different than pre-WWII society. How different is mostly visible in hindsight; the society we live in now is our normal.
Industrial societies became more "mass society" and technology shifted the citizen's role more towards passive consumption of goods and services, and more away from active production and participation. Television, other mass media, and the internet uniquely serve this shift.
So, to make a long story short, crushing every small screen won't solve the problem by itself.
You are forgetting the shoutbox, which has, to date, 1,716 pages already.
According to Axios, the GOP Chair, Christian Ziegler, is in hot water for allegedly raping the woman with whom he and his wife, Bridget Ziegler, had apparently been in a menage a trois. Bridget Z. is a co-founder of the conservative group [I]swinging?[/i] Moms For Liberty.
Well, the rape allegation relieves the Florida GOP from having to pass judgement on their party boss being involved in an unusually sophisticated sort of sex thing, let alone the problem of Moms For Liberty swinging both ways. Then again, could it be that's the kind of liberty Florida Moms are after?
Or maybe this is all de rigueur among Florida Republicans. Imagine what Florida Republican state conventions must be like--enough to make a gay bathhouse look tame.
I have seen several case of this problem, it is sad.
Quoting BC
I don't think it is so much of a "how much they know or don't know" kind of problem. I think it is more of "I really don't want to know this because if I ever need it there are youtube videos that explain it" kind of problem.
So many kids nowadays seem to want to run away from learn or even using their minds. Problem solving is the most needed ability in the world right now and kids think that they can find all the answers on the internet. When you explain to them that they are not problems if the answers can be found with google, they look at you as if you have two heads.
Quoting BC
May the gods be merciful to us in our waning years.
Quoting BC
Nope, but maybe teaching them how to use it properly would help. Who knows.
Quoting Hanover
I have read dozens of these article, some good some just plain stupid. This one is not bad.
I know that the blame cannot be laid 100% at googles door and I even use it a lot. But the way the kids use it as an answer to all is not going to help mankind in the near nor distant future.
A lot of people blame schools for the students lack of creativity and yes the system does not really advance the idea that creativity is a good thing. Way to many exercise in most subjects are just copying and [s]remembering[/s] memorizing other peoples knowledge. Even things like science fair projects are just repeats of something someone somewhere did already.
But just like the rest of education, one of the major participants is supposed to be the parent. "That's why I bought you the computer, tablet, cellphone, so that you don't have to be dependent on me to help you", is what I heard one parent tell his kid. Too many parents nowadays think that the schools are 100% in charge of teaching their kids everything they will need in their lives.
I even had a parent call me out for not teaching their kid how to be creative. I was try to teach kids how to create sprites so that they could program them to do things. I had shown them several examples and all the kid did was to make an exact copy of one of them. When he did not get the points daddy came and asked me when I had taught his kid to make original artwork and he would not understand that originality comes from the persons brain and cannot be taught. The kid finally presented a copy of a youtube example his dad had found for him.
One of the biggest problems that the internet has caused is the drive for perfection. Perfect body, perfect house perfect food on the table. The flip side is the constant mocking of the imperfect, the non conformist. People that do stupid things on purpose are worshiped as influencers and have lots of followers, those that do the same thing by accident or ignorance are torn to shreds by those same influencers.
So nowadays the kids don't want to do things wrong, they prefer to do nothing instead of risking being mocked. I know this happened to a certain extent before, you did something stupid in class and everyone laughed at you for a couple of days or until someone else did something to take away the heat. But today, that bit of stupidity can end up being viewed world wide.
Quoting Jamal
I asked because of my interest in what you elude to. I know kids have a lot more knowledge of sex than we ever did at their age. I know that most are more advanced with the use of technology than many older folks, especially those that they consider stupid because they refuse to learn to use a cellphone so that they can talk face to face with other people.
But give most kids now a ball of string with knots in it and they will go to the store and buy a new one because they will not be able to find an explanation of how to fix it on youtube.
I'm surprised at your sheer and utter ignorance, an ignorance rivaled only by that of the accused.
Obviously an absolute nobody who has nothing to lose and everything to gain by levying a serious allegation against an established celebrity who perhaps doesn't bend to their intended will cannot control themself but to do so instantly when such opportunity arises. Shame on the accused, for he/they should have known better, and perhaps should suffer for being so careless and asinine. It's blackmail, regardless of any alleged sexual acts willful or otherwise. Naturally my argument there was no non-willful acts performed, but a lie crafted with the skill of a handicapped sloth meant to bring oneself what they never could on their own: fame, national attention, and that oh so desired thing we call, money.
To prison with the lying wench and all her assets and those of her warped offspring confiscated. A life of servitude is too good for those who cheat when they have everything but what the next person has.
It's Florida in general, nothing political about it. :lol:
Have you read the book "Florida Man"?
I'm surprised you didn't recognize the irony in my opening sentence, But yes,
Quoting Outlander
Blast lying wenches, thieves, knaves, and scoundrels all!
No, but a copy has just now been acquired for $5, which is not enough to get a decent coffee these days.
I clearly need to learn more about stupid people. See, I never meet truly stupid people in real life -- I only meet tastefully dressed, polite, well informed, thoughtful, prudent, happy people who are all sort of like philosopher kings in disguise. They get tiresome after a couple of hours.
I am subscribed to a British girl on her channel, and she uploads short videos teaching slang or different accents in the UK. She says she is a Brummie. It is fantastic because she teaches English by commenting on episodes of Peaky Blinders.
I wish I had teachers in school like her back in the day...
Another vocabulary I learned thanks to her: the beep beep alarm. She says the past tense is: 'smoke alarm went off.'
?And she states a difference: if we are at home, it is called a 'smoke alarm'. But if we are in an office it is said 'fire alarm'.
I like these trivial things and I don't bother to spend hours watching her videos.
The shoutbox is like a sanctuary to me!
"The smoke alarm went off" seems pretty standard to me. Yeah, I don't know why we don't have "fire alarms", in stead of "smoke alarms" in our homes. Where there is smoke, there is fire. But we empty "fire extinguishers" not "smoke extinguishers". Of course, there are actually different kinds of alarms. "Smoke" alarms detect smoke, even if it is cold. "Fire" alarms (may) detect heat. I bought a carbon monoxide detecter, not a carbon monoxide alarm. (It probably didn't work anyway.)
It is not legitimate free speech to falsely yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. Yelling "STINK!" in a crowded theater is legitimate if a woman 6 rows in front and 10 seats to your left is wearing noxious, suffocating perfume. That's reason enough to set off a fatal stampede toward the doors.
This is interesting and a subject of the shoutbox. What do you think can be detected by the alarm firstly? The heat of the fire or the smoke? The Brummie girl I see in my videos states that the difference is about the place we are referring to, basically (when the beep-beep goes off). It doesn't depend on what is detected in the first place...
You didn't need to elaborate. I'm familiar with this sort of talk.
In my experience, youngsters these days have better social skills and confidence, are more eloquent, and have much better general knowledge, compared to me and my friends at the same age.
Yesterday I asked a table of Russians about it. The oldsters voiced opinions like yours, and the youngsters said that was a stupid stereotype. The special Russian dimension is that education is regarded as having deteriorated since the end of the USSR, which is partly true. Still, maybe YouTube can make up for that.
I'm not siding with the parent who thinks you can magically teach his child to be creative, but I do think creativity can likely be taught, or at least fostered in a way that you would see improvement even among the most left brained of people. That is at least what the fine arts teachers say in their never ending effort to keep their jobs and not to be replaced by more STEM teachers.
What makes creativity difficult to teach is that it is hard to quantify in a way that can be graded. It's easy enough to say a school is in the top 10% in mathematics, but not so much with creativity, whatever that would mean.
My nephew, who was never a good student and struggled for various reasons, entered an art contest where he was asked to draw a still life of a fruit bowl. He spent all of five minutes scribbling on a page and coloring partially in the lines, and he placed highly in the contest above those who had had realistic, detailed pictures. They judged his artwork as being advanced and beyond requiring the elementary details a less sophisticated artist would still find important. Now he thinks he's a great artist.
It depends...
Smoke detectors are relatively inexpensive and fairly reliable. They are alarms which normally do not do anything about the smoke, aside from making noise. In some cases that's OK. If bread is burning in the toaster, one doesn't want all hell to break loose. On the other hand, if the living room couch is on fire, something needs to happen PDQ (pretty damn quick), or the house will go up in flames.
Ceiling mounted sprinkler systems that put fires out are activated by the heat of the fire -- a wax plug melts and allows water to spray out on the fire. Unfortunately, older buildings usually don't have sprinkler systems.
I don't know if there are fire detecting alarms for home use that detect fire by sensing excessive heat.
Smoke alarms have a tiny amount of radioactive Americium 241 in them. The ionizing radiation helps detect smoke particles.
I have now used up everything I know about fire and smoke.
They don't have a wax plug. They have fluid in a glass container that breaks open when the liquid expands from getting too hot. The water in the pipes is usually rusty from lack of use and it destroys everything the fire doesn't.
They lock the handle on the spigot so that you can't turn the water off because people might turn the water off and never turn it back on and then a fire would break out and everyone would die a crispy death, like s'mores. They do make a device you can put over the activated sprinkler if it goes off accidently, like if you hang your clothes on it and break the glass, but most people don't have that in their bat belt so they just have to yell "fuck fuck fuck fuck" as they run around the house looking for plastic wrap or something. I've never done that, but that's probably how I'd respond. Then in like 30 years, we'd all laugh about that time I hung up my shirt and destroyed the whole house.
My impression of the current crop of pre-school children is that they are smarter than children used to be. but these sorts of impressions are not worth much. 70 years ago I wasn't an adult observing pre-schoolers or adolescents.
One has to compare like with like. The social environment of children varies a lot from place to place and time to time. In 1923, middle class urban youth from upward-mobile homes were, like as not, in possession of self-confidence, good social skills, and general knowledge. At the same time, poor farm children attending abbreviated school, were probably not as self-confident, lacked social skills, and had less general knowledge. The children of upward mobile, successful farmers in 1923 completed high school (which at the time was above average) and had pretty good social skills and self-confidence.
From what I see in 2023, the average middle class urban youth from upward-mobile homes are, as expected, socially sophisticated, self-confident, and have good general knowledge. The average poor kid from from barely functional families are not doing all that well.
Your story reveals the hidden hazards of clothing -- hanging it up, etc.
You might hang out with idiots, so your impression of your peers being stupider than Gen Zs is understandable. I mean look at who you interact with in the Shoutbox.
If you can stand the stupidity, the second part is worse. :lol: :rofl:
Quoting Hanover
Quoting BC
People have different levels of several different type of intelligence, or so they say. Being creative can mean anything from painting pictures to finding a novel way to get into a girls underwear.
I struggled in school, mostly from boredom, but from dyslexia which was unheard of at the time. You where either stupid or just looking for trouble back them. But I was always looking for things to do that no one in the school yard had reported doing. And most of the kids were the same, inventing new games, ways to bother parents and teachers without getting into trouble, looking for places to explore.
I went to 13 different school from first grade to eleventh, in three countries, and most of the kids were the same. Very few had social connectivity problems and nearly everywhere the kids kids had an active social life.
What I see now is kids with phones, everywhere they go.
Lots of them have trouble talking to people they do not see too often or have just met and they often ask close to the beginning of the meeting whether you have any social media accounts. They sometimes seem at a loss for things to say, as if they are trying to figure out the words for the emojis they normally use when chatting. And I have also noticed that a lot of kids nowadays have a very limited range of topics that they want to talk about.
Little kids are fantastic at picking up on what is happening and they love copying what grown ups are doing. It is not surprising then that kids seem much smarter than we were. We see little kids using tablets and cellphones like they were born with them and think WOW kids today are so smart. What would we have done if we had this technology in the sixties? The same things they do probably.
Seriously though, I do not envy these kids. They will never know the fun of playing football with old paint cans, that we set on fire and kicked the around the street. They will never feel the pride of being able to sit in the gangs tree house built from old pieces of wood, metal roofing and furniture that we hauled thirty feet up the tree.
Almost ten years ago when windows 10 came out I had a seventh grade come and ask me why my computer still had windows 7 on it. He blabbed on for a few minutes telling me all the cool things his windows 10 computer could do, I showed him that I could all of the same things he had mentioned then added a couple of not too well known tricks that maybe he could check out on his machine.
The next day a girl in his class told another teacher that the boys had been planning to try and embarrass some of the teachers that did not have too much technical knowledge. And me being the oldest teacher there they had started with me, think that I would have little know how with computers. One of the boys later apologized after I took a few minutes to explain that I had been giving computer classes before windows even existed. I still have the present they gave me when they graduated.
Okay.
Apart from the insightful contents, the presentation, without notes, and with remarkable clarity and fluency is an absolute delight. I defy you to listen to it or to read a transcript and not learn something.
https://www.gresham.ac.uk/sites/default/files/transcript/2023-06-08-1800_Stewart-T.pdf
Edit: well he did have some notes, but still...
Will people stop accusing us of genocide from now on?
Hmm...
Good read. Thanks.
Turns out, this has been the case for at least two other of his children.
But my wife had no idea, until quite recently, that she had any siblings. Once she found out, she went on a bit of a quest to find them. She did. Two half-brothers. Turns out they lived in the same town she did in the UK for much of her childhood. Fuck.
Anyway, fast-forward a little and she plucked up the courage to send both separate FB messages.
She struggled with anxiety for about six weeks waiting for a response. It's been hard to watch.
But a few days ago she got a response from one of them - and it was positive. He wants to know her and is really sad he didn't know about her earlier.
So i'm just, a few times a day, breaking into happy weeping for my wife finding her brothers. Its been a really magical Christmas time :)
Very cool!
I recommend trying more foreplay.
Dammit!
I've never had rabbit. What would you compare it to?
Chicken, but leaner.
@Noble Dust In fact it does have its own subtle flavour, and while it’s not the most exciting meat, the legs are great cooked in red wine.
I'd like to try it at some point. I've had squirrel and venison here in the US, both of which were hunted by someone I knew. The squirrel tasted like dirty chicken.
The most adventurous meat I've tried was Oreja, or pigs ear, in taco form. Gelatinous and not edible, for me at least. That said I do enjoy a good Lengua taco from time to time.
I’ve never eaten an ear. I’d be hoping for crispy rather than gelatinous, so your oreja sounds unappealing. Tongue tacos—another thing I haven’t tried. Tongue is popular in salads here but I’ve always viewed it as boring.
And squirrel. Again, haven’t tried it. You say dirty chicken, but I’d’ve expected it to taste like chipmunk.
Hope you didn't get lead poisoning.
In fact, I'd be the first to mass trap all the rabbits, make a few bucks, and then tell everyone else to fuck off. I'm not running for office, so I don't care what you think. And when I take my earnings from my booty of rabbit meat and buy me a new toaster and enjoy me a melted cheese sandwich while you're crying about the lack of Peter Cottontails, I won't even notice.
But alas, the law keeps me from my plan, saving me from a booty full of rabbit meat.
Good old Fred.
I just wanted to beat you guys to the Fred joke. That was the whole purpose of this story.
Funnier would be if you told him you hoped he got lead poisoning.
Mean humor is much funnier.
I guess Fred wasn't the smartest Corvus in the murder.
It's not the most flavorful to be fair. On a salad, though...hmmm.
Quoting Jamal
You imply you've had chipmunk. This is somehow concerning.
Good question. There are not many rabbit farms, true. But Americans used to eat rabbit and did so with enthusiasm. Hasenpfeffer, braised rabbit, is pretty good. In the film, Roger and Me, an unemployed Flint, MI auto worker was raising rabbits for meat. I remember that the audience seemed a bit shocked at the idea. Sentimentality? Domestic rabbits are too stupid to be cute.
People don't each duck and goose very often, either. I judge that to be a result of the meat's cost, plus it's all dark meat. Some people seem to strongly prefer less flavorful white meat. Raising geese is fairly expensive (they eat a lot) and so is the butchering cost, plus getting the pin feathers out is tedious.
The neighborhood store sells pigs ears (for people to make into silk purses) as dog chews.
Duck is common in the Chinatowns of NYC and I assume in other Chinatowns across the US. I just had peking duck at my company holiday lunch yesterday, as it happens.
@Baden
I read it as the latter. But just realized that may be wrong.
I read it as BAY-den. It could also be BAH-den.
If you ever eat goose filled with bread chunks, it was probably stolen from the park because that's all the kids will feed them even though the sign says thou shalt not.
Yep, gonna keep giving the same punch line to every joke now.
Tongue has a weird tongue feel, except Baden's.
I only imply I know. This is somehow concerning
Stole your punchline, but thou shalt not
I ate half and got the rest to go in a box, but only I can see in it, so I decided privately what I'd call it, but thou shalt not.
Quoting Noble Dust
:up:
My name is actually pronounced Noh-BLAY DoosTAY.
Your name has always been too complicated for me, so I just sort of glance over it like when reading the names in a Russian novel .
I've been thinking of changing my name to Weiden in der Oberpfalz in order to keep with the German place name theme. Is that better?
Good to know, thanks.
Pics or it didn't happen. This is rule number one of "internetting" after all.
Or were you that ashamed of the final result. :razz:
Funny. I've always read it as "Be Hatin'"
You gotta read it the right way of course.
Visually there is nothing to distinguish it from chicken soup, so a photo would be useless. I can show you a photo of my online rabbit order though.
Original:
Translated:
Rabbit:
https://humanmeatproject.com/
Yawn. Nothing new. You may view the end result here and here, if you wish. Though why would you.
Damn…all this time I’ve been saying it wrong in my head.
Was his disposition toward sushi known? :sad:
It's a small, small world they say... :grimace:
I am a friend of the Snowman. It seems to be a cool guy. His nose is a carrot, but who am I to criticize this?
True, that. So here's a bloody Christmas card. By the way, the late Victorians sent cards we would consider wildly inappropriate. They also liked to read ghosts stories at Christmas time, an example of which is Dickens' Christmas Carol--but spookier, maybe.
Some Frenchmen flew over to Minnesota for deer hunting on my brother-in-laws farm. They bagged a deer and hastened to get it back to France before it spoiled. They packed the cavity with ice, sewed it up, and stuffed it -- antlers and all -- into the overhead compartment on the plane. Naturally people objected. Vegans, vegets, and PETA types were outraged and appalled. Two people were annoyed when blood dripped on them from above. Air France gave them free Bloody Mary cocktails in compensation.
The Victorian era seemed to be an interesting time for the United Kingdom, and you are right that it was more spooky than ever. By the way, 'A Christmas Carol' by Dickens is a masterpiece, and you just brought back good memories because I used to read it in English during my school days. It was a task for 'Christmas holidays.' I have always enjoyed reading this book. I wonder what my thoughts would be if I read it again as an adult...
Interesting idea! I purposed myself to read 'The Brothers Karamazov' one time per year as a ritual. But I never thought of having a specific ritual for Christmas... and what would be a better ritual if literature was not included?
Quoting BC
I had an Amazon account, but it was hacked by a hacker from Vietnam... Now, I only buy books at Iberlibro.com
First I discover you're disgusted by chocolate with nuts, and now it turns out you've never seen a snowman with a carrot for a nose.
But thank you for the cards. Merry Christmas to all.
If only we had more snowy days in Madrid, I would expect to see more snowmen with carrot noses in the streets than Santa Claus or reindeer. :cry:
You missed it:
One time each 50 years! Oh, Jesus! :rofl:
That happened in 2021 and yes, I missed it... I hope I will have more luck in 2071...
In 2016, the year I moved to Spain, it snowed in Denia, which is a much rarer occurrence than it is in Madrid. The story going around was that the ajuntament had one very small snow-plough that had been locked up in a forgotten garage for decades. The story was illustrated online with this:
I wish it was true and not just bad photoshop.
It's above zero Celsius this week in Moscow. That's bad news of course, since it's been snowing constantly for more than a month and now it's melting and forming dirty puddles the size of the Caspian Sea. Bring back winter I say. Minus 10-15 C is ideal.
Ha! It's better to laugh at the incompetence of our public administration than to be mad.
On the other hand, I just remembered you. I left the metro, and guess who is in front of me...
Even if it were true, they can't really be blamed for deprioritizing concerns about snow on the Costa Blanca.
Quoting javi2541997
Ha! It's a sign.
Anyway, we became a laughing stock, being told we really weren't an international city if we could be shut down over an ice storm. I think that resulted in our purchasing all sorts of snow and ice equipment that sits unused somewhere that everyone will try to figure out how to use next time the ice shows up.
Our other solution has been to close the schools and shut down all businesses at the hint of snow so as to avoid people being stuck again.
My solution is to ask for an escalation in global warming so that we don't have to live through these sorts of difficult times again. Please join me in my prayers.
Many families read " 'Twas the the Night Before Christmas" on Christmas on Christmas Eve, but my family actually does read The Brothers Karamazov next to the fireplace each Christmas Eve. Uncle Freddie reads it aloud facing the fire, bending and bobbing about, in a racing mumbling melodious chant that takes hours and hours, his voice rising and falling, each of us moving our lips silently to the words, bobbing and weaving as well.
Nothing gets you in the Christmas mood like a Christmas Eve daven.
Hold up!
Can you confirm if your family reads 'The Brothers Karamazov' in Russian?
Because I read it in Russian, and maybe we have more in common than we ever thought!
No, sorry, we read it in German and through a line of translaters (German to French to Spanish to German to English) we have it finally translated into English so that we can understand it. There has been some discussion regarding removing the unnecessary translations to French then to Spainish and just going straight to English, but the motion died in subcomittee by a vote of 8 to 9, with the most honorable Julio Rodriguez from the 8th District using his swing vote to block it.
The amount of procedure in my home is cumbersome, ruining pretty much every holiday. I wish it were different, but our home Constitution was written as it is, and we're stuck with it I'm afraid.
That happened to me once in the DMZ as well, making my ascent from South Korea to the less favorable North just that much more hazardous.
I'm spouting some award winning nonsense in the Shoutbox this holiday season, and I would like at least some recognition. Where is S when you need him? He used to laugh at all my jokes until he was offed for his particular brand of inappropriateness.
If it's any consolation, I was impressed by your multi-layered Wittgenstein humour yesterday.
Quoting javi2541997
You can read Russian? The closest I come to reading Russian is I can pronounce what I see written down. Trouble is I don't always know what it means.
The same as you. When I went to college, one of my classmates was very interested in working in Russia or finding a job related to Russian culture. One day, he invited me to a Russian bar just to taste beers (I cannot remember the name exactly, but it was the average that you can find in a Russian market. Like Mahou or Cruz Campo) and learn basic Russian (because this bar was offering events for students) and the basic thing I remember is this: trying to read and remember the basic letters of Cyril. For example: "???????"... P (equals to R) o (equals to U) cc (equals to SS) ?? (to I) ? (to A) and that basic stuff.
This was five years ago and my classmate was able to elaborate phrases... I hope he is in Russia now pursuing his dreams!
It is actually. The Wittgenstein humor market is very small, and if I can't get at least a smile here, I have few other avenues to present it.
NASA gifts us with 'out of this world' views ahead of the holidays
[sup]— Scott Sutherland · The Weather Network · Dec 21, 2023[/sup]
Ya, more precisely. Otherwise yeah, the alphabet's the easiest thing about the language. Don't get me started on the conjugations.
In this part of the world, children still make snowmen (with adult help -- big balls of snow are heavy) with carrot noses. What they can't do, these days, is add "two eyes made out of coal" because nobody burns coal, these days. I suppose charcoal would work. When I was a child, back in the Pleistocene, we used actual coal.
Quoting Jamal
It's about the same in Minneapolis, but no puddles--we have not received enough snow this year to melt into a puddle. Odd weather. We had an extremely dry summer, but during September and October we received 10 inches of rain. Then the drought resumed.
We are familiar with your current cold swamp. In 2009 we had heavy snow and cold weather in the fall, but it warmed up and rained on Christmas Eve. The streets were an unhealthy combo of ice covered with cold slop. It got cold again, as we knew it would, and then everything was icier than it had been before.
The logo next to web site is that of ABE Books, which I have used to buy used books. ABE Books has been owned by Amazon since 2008.
I think I have already accepted that a snowman can have a carrot nose. But it is disturbing that they wear a hat! What are they covering? The material they are made of?
Amazon owns everything, I guess!
Correct. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Specifically, synchronicity is a sign one is on the right spiritual path. According to Jung.
In other news, you are warned to stay away from https://www.werchristmas.co.uk They will, as you might expect, literally suck you dry.
Also, gonna try my hand at spiked eggnog: amaretto and white rum.
Anyone ever try any of this? Tips?
In my experience the best eggnog is prepared in advance, and left to rot, (age? season? ferment? who knows?) in the fridge for at least a month. Usually I just buy the store version, get tired of it because it's so sickeningly sweet, and the rest sits in the fridge until I find it and drink it at Easter.
:up:
I really like amaretto, so that may be difficult. But I’ll try.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Never heard of that. I’ve made eggnog myself — it’s highly perishable. Unless you mean you prepare it with alcohol, but even then I wouldn’t want to let it sit longer than a day.
Thanks for the brief organic chemistry lesson.
Umami? That's new to me.
Quoting unenlightened
Many esters there? The evolution of our understanding of sensation, and the combining of taste and smell in what is called "flavour" is very philosophically interesting. Also, there's now a massive industry based around the science of flavour, along with the artificial creation and manufacture of flavours.
Fear Factor, Christmas episode: can you eat 100 year old eggnog?
Yeah, prepare with alcohol and let it age. There's some science to it, as unenlightened explains
It's a basic mouth taste, that Europe didn't know about but the orientals did. Is The word in English would be"savoury" . Monosodium glutamate is the artificial version. How we managed to go so long in ignorance of our own tastebuds must be down to some negative relative of 'social facilitation' - see that silly language thread, If there's no word for it, it doesn't exist. So now you have the word, a whole new world of taste should open up for you.????
I've heard that eggnog could be aged for a while, months or a year. I have not heard of mass die-offs from aged nog, but they might not have filled out the death certificates properly.
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON THE INTERNET! Here's a link to a discussion and recipe for aged egg nog.
Now I don’t know if I should believe this.
I now feel like a waltz is in order.
I forgot about port. Not sure I've even had any this century. Cheers.
I hope they are doing well, because Hailey once said 'We fear what we said online might have real life consequences.' Here...
I only wish that they have not been prosecuted or something...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortified_wine
From past experience, Gallo has problems, but MD20 is a delight, and Night Train is a close second. But I'll wait for the professionals to sample and judge, it might be time to splurge and try something new.
There's something wrong with that word "splurge", it sounds like something you might do after drinking a bottle of that stuff.
As one such, my basic rec is to explore the misunderstood world of sherry. Not that cream stuff, but the real thing: Manzanilla, Fino, Amontillado, Palo Cortado (if you can find it), and Oloroso; all dry and in order from lightest to darkest. And if you’re not afraid of dessert wine, give PX a try.
6:37am here - and the kids have been up an hour
Very much hoping everyone has a happy holidays and stops thinking for long enough to eat an irrational amount.
Quoting Jamal
I endorse the words of Jamal. Feliz Navidad, Baden. You are not alone with us. :smile:
Sláinte!!!
To you as well (we're still 14 hours out).
Thanks guys! Merry Christmas to all! :sparkle:
I ate mussels for Christmas Eve and some fishy dishes.
I'm a fairly abstemious person (I don't drink alcohol or eat sweets or desserts or drink soft drinks - sodas) this Christmas (in a couple of hours) I'm off to a good Chinese restaurant with immediate family to eat my own body weight in dumplings. I have no interest in 'proper' Christmas food (turkey, ham, etc) so finally I'll be eating something I actually enjoy this Christmas!
Merry Christmas to all!
How did that happen -- tradition or chance?
Oysters on Christmas Eve are a tradition in many families in this area, even here in the middle of the continent. When these traditions were formed, transportation was slower and one's oysters had to travel a long way. In barrels, I suppose, unshucked, on ice.
Not quite sure where the oysters I'm about to cook and eat came from. Hopefully they had the benefit of relatively clean ocean water, and weren't scraped off the bottom of New York City's harbor.
Are you shucking them, or do they come packed in a plastic container? The former is more reassuring. The latter easier.
And you say cooked. How so? Grilled on the open fire, fried in a batter, baked with cheese, or in a stew.
Too afraid to eat them raw?
This Christmas Eve we had some cheeses and a nice prosecco. Today, Christmas Day, I'm cooking a duck.
Quoting Noble Dust
My favourite fish. Is this one of your Nordic traditions? When are you having the giant pancake?
Merry Christmas to the Shoutbox and all who sail in her.
It is, but only resurrected this year. I hear it’s a choice fish for fish ‘n chips. The giant pancake is tomorrow morning. I’ll try to snap a pic.
Quoting Jamal
How are you preparing it?
Merry Christmas y’all.
I'm not afraid to eat them raw, and have every now and then. They have an interesting raw flavor. Oysters are a bit too expensive to experiment on. I'm pretty sure I would like scalloped oysters or fried--not with cheese. I've never tried frying them. (Are they like fried clams? I love those.)
I also had a bosc pear (the ones with the rough tan skin) with some very sharp Italian blue cheese--not gorgonzola--and caraway rye bread. The cheese people called it "mountain blue" whatever that means. Quite pungent and salty.
For the last 3 years, oysters have been about $20 a pound, shelled.
Everything in the South is fried, so that's most common after raw. If you've not had an oyster Po Boy, you should try one next time you're at a Cajun place. I like fried oysters better than better than fried clams. They're thicker and you can taste the oyster. With fried clams, they can be almost all batter because they're so small.
Nothing much. Maybe stuff it with oranges. Any advice?
Sigh. Another delectable entree, teasing the philosophers mind who is hungry for knowledge both comestible and intangible to no end. Yet no picture. Not even a simple gesture of good will or festivity or even conformity to the expected almost-mandatory tradition of posting one's edible procurements for us all to see. If not simply to dissolve all doubt that one's claims are facetious or of falsehood for purposes of novelty.
Quoting Baden
I had that for breakfast and I'm not even Irish.
So you thought I was bluffing, eh?
Quoting Jamal
Nice one-upmanship. *Bows respectfully*
I assumed it to be in the realm of reasonable possibility.
Interestingly enough I have a chicken quesadilla of similar constitution I plan to indulge in shortly.
As a lone bachelor, much like yourself, my holiday dining plans are quite typical of any other evening. After all, unlike yourself, or so I presume, I hold myself to a sort of.. mission you could say, that is centered around that which is greater than myself and so budget accordingly. Sure, I could cook myself a fancy roast, invite friends over, but, for better or worse, the endeavors I engage in are of the dangerous sort and so I choose to spare those I appreciate from such a fate. To much avail, actually. :)
I don't know if it is a tradition at all, because most families take lamb for dinner here. This is not an obstacle to being a bit different and eating fishy dishes. The dinner for Christmas Eve this year was usual: jamón serrano, ensaladilla rusa, Manchego and the mussels. At least I remember that my family always cooked these dishes. The dinner for New Year's Eve is cod fish, for example. Yes, this is a tradition. It is weird to eat meat that night (at least in my home).
We don't celebrate the 25th. I think I already posted this the last year (or the before). Nonetheless, some families or friends go to a bar to have some beers. The 'special' moment is the night of 24th.
Possibly from the chicken, which is a bit of a misnomer as what you get underneath the sauce is really just a kind of edible rubber that looks like hotdog.
In fairness, this does hit the protein/fat combo cravings that are the main priority for any bona fide bogman's meal. In other words, don't be giving me no salads, bruv. I'd rather slum it in processed fast food wonderland.
I cannot put my finger on it, but something about it feels contrived.
The lack of a halo above the pretzel is disturbing:
Merry Christmas!
All I did was I poured over boiling water like the Chinese do, then left it out to dry for an hour, then seasoned it inside and out, then cooked for 90 minutes and let it rest for 25 minutes while I made the gravy which was too fatty cos of all the fat.
I neither believe in, nor really understand, marinades, stuffings, etc. The best roasts I've had have been unsullied.
This one was 10/10.
Sorry, I had visions of sugar plums dancing in my head 10 hours ago. I’ve never cooked duck, but a 10/10 sounds like you did it right.
Shoutbox scholars, I give you Finnish Kropsua:
Looks tasty. I wonder if I can eat it with coffee for merienda. If I am not wrong, that's a sweet dish.
You put cranberry sauce or strawberries over it and it is yummy!
:yum:
I had to look up merienda, but sure. We eat it for Christmas breakfast, topped with lingonberry preserves (not cranberry or strawberry! It's Finnish!), and generally serve it with coffee and some type of pork sausage, but the sausage was absent this year sadly.
Will have kugel, brisket, matzo ball soup, knishes, latkes, and pastrami for lunch. Ordered it from Katz' Deli in NY.
I also got a smoked turkey for the uninitiated who will join us.
I did really bad on the food front today. :cry:
7-11 is owned by a Japanese company.
Gee thanks, dude. Well, I hope you enjoy your feast, Scrooge, while tiny Tim here chews on his neon cheese and cardboard burritos.
News to me. They're everywhere in Thailand anyhow. There are at least five or six just on our campus.
You're like one of those people who looks for sympathy in your suffering, so you've scrounged up the worst meal imaginable, first by microwaving a box of frozen chicken meat byproduct, and then by grabbing a week old burrito and a Power Aid and then comparing yourself to that old standby Victorian era gimp Tiny Tim.
On Thansgiving, I sat at the bar next to an Asian guy who knew little English, who ordered shrimp, soup, lobster, dessert, and drinks. He then couldn't get his credit card to work and left without paying.
That was a much better play than yours. I like undeserved reward over undeserved suffering. It just makes for a better Christmas story for me.
I had a Honda a while ago.
:lol:
I just bought a Toyota.
Doesn't Thailand have amazing street food?
Yes. Absolutely. And great markets. 7-11 is overpriced and a lot of the stuff in there is pretty low quality by comparison. But they do a decent Thai milk tea and some of the toasted sandwiches are OK too.
:rage:
Oh sorry, in Ireland that just means sandwiches. I had to Google why you were angry (though it should have occurred to me). Delete.
https://headstuff.org/culture/history/soup-sambo-slang-racism/
"Sambo is a term that originated in Ireland and is used to refer to a sandwich made with white bread, butter, and a filling of your choice. On the other hand, a sandwich is a more general term that refers to any type of food that consists of two or more slices of bread with a filling in between. The filling can be anything from meat and cheese to vegetables and spreads."
https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/sambo-vs-sandwich
Me too. Sandeman imperial reserve.
:fire: via Gold Belly? Assuming you’re being sincere for once. I’ve only had the pastrami but it’s worth the hype.
Quoting Baden
Interesting.
I have never heard or read this word and when I was in Dublin I never saw a sign with 'sambo' included on it, or I just don't remember it...
Well, the web page says that although “Sambo” is a term that has been used in various contexts throughout history it is evident that, in your post and in most cases, it is used to refer to a special type of sandwich. So, it would be weird if someone thought and used this word pejoratively. In fact, the term “sambo” is believed to be a shortened version of “sandwich and accompaniments, and I guess this is what folks think when they see or read 'sambo' somewhere.
There's a similar issue in Australian slang apparently. I should have made the connection because I have heard the pejorative use but the sandwich meaning is absolutely dominant in my mind from it being a common word in Ireland, so it didn't occur to me. Anyway, something to be aware of. Again, apologies to @frank and anyone else who was offended. I don't think the etymology question is settled but it could be a case of "convergent evolution".
Hang on, no. It's cocks we call chickens. Nvm.
I wasn't offended. I was just joking. I figured it was some non-American weirdness.
Oh, good. :smile:
I appreciate you joining the conversation in order to make me look relatively more informed and sensitive. I think it's working. :up:
:up: Let me know which accoutrements are must-try.
Three possibilities -- a) 'sambo' as a slang term may have faded by the time you were in Dublin. b) 'sambo' might have been verbal slang, not typically used on a printed sign. c) maybe Baden's familiarity with 'sambo' was owning to slumming among the lowest levels of Irish society which you didn't encounter.
Best avoid the term altogether.
I wish! We bogmen aren't even allowed be part of this "society" thing at all. We are mocked, pilloried and ostracized simply for habits like taking mud baths and eating live badgers.
I lived near a hospital. Well, being more specific, the hospital was in front of the house. The street is called 'Leo'. Easy to remember and this is why my mates and I decided to lease the house. I can't remember the name of the neighborhood, but searching on Google it says the street I lived belongs to 'Drumcondra' near to 'Broadstone'.
As well as I recall, I don't have memories of having a 'slumming' vibe with the neighbors or the people, generally. Most of them were friendly and educated. I think I have never read that word because it is very slang and maybe the bars and other places use more formal words.
Quoting BC
It is sad... because a 'sambo' is an Irish sandwich, obviously. Due to bad and lascivious people, we (English learners) have to avoid the use of cool slang words because it can be dangerous or offensive depending on the context. I think that a sambo will always mean to me a type of sandwich... only a racist would use that word in bad manners.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zambo#:~:text=Zambo%20(Spanish%3A%20%5B%CB%88%CE%B8ambo%5D,mixed%20Amerindian%20and%20African%20ancestry.
https://lib.lsu.edu/sites/all/files/sc/fpoc/terminology.html#:~:text=Mulatto%3A%20Historically%20this%20term%20is,and%20one%2Dhalf%20European%20ancestry.
Those fortunately now obsolete words get very little use these days, only being dredged up when someone can't think of a better slang word for a sandwich.
It would mind you also amuse the Irish to refer to the article named for the Earl of Sandwich, or any English aristocrat with a derogatory racialised epithet.
A far superior explication of sandwichgate than Hamover's. :up:
Shift in idea guys...
Alright guys, stay with me on this one. I've got a an amazing idea. Instead of McDonald's, we're going to have O'Donalds, the new fangled version from the Irish. Instead of the Big Mac, we'll have the Big O, with the campaign slogan being "The Big O, now cumming!" To promote the product, we'll have a man dressed up in a clown suit and he'll be calling the kids over trying to give away Big Os to them.
Make that Photos (plural).
At first, I thought that the kid in Saprunova's 3rd photo was holding electronics in their hand, but I think it's decorative.
Great photos.
¡Qué aproveche!
The Swiss are good at producing cheese, but they somehow, are most known for chocolate tabs and clock machinery.
I think this obscenity should be considered a sexual offense, punished by law and a prosecutor shall proceed against the worker who does so.
Ah, but don't be so quick to judge my young friend. For example, did you know:
"The use of human saliva in fermentation actually predates the advent of rice farming in Japan. During the J?mon period, folks would chew starchy foods like acorns, millet, and buckwheat to create fermentation starters. The amylase enzymes in human saliva breaks down the complex sugars in these foods, after which wild yeasts could feed on the sugars and convert them into alcohol."
https://gizmodo.com/7-foods-and-beverages-made-using-ingredients-from-the-h-1489363106
These foods very well could have saved countless lives perhaps even entire empires! Fancy that.
If someone - in his behavior of unlimited knowledge - decides to use his reproductive fluid without the consent of others, it should be considered a sexual offence...
I wonder what all that jizz does for the flavour.
Try it!
Most respectable pizza parlours now offer it as an unlisted "special order" toping. It's a must, to stay competitive, just like pineapple. Ask for the jizza pizza, they'll know what you mean.
I actually worked at a Pizza Hut back in the late 1980s and that wasn't a thing back then. I actually find that story pretty doubtful just because the idea that a bunch of guys would be standing around an oven while someone masturbated in the open kitchen isn't something I could envision, although I think anyone who's worked in a kitchen can attest to some pretty disgusting stories.
Quoting Tom Storm
I think there are ways to learn that if it's something you find yourself curious about.
People who smoked so much that their lungs started falling apart live in fear of the way they're going to die because they know what it's like to struggle to get that next breath. Some people will try to assure them, but it's a lie. Death will be worse than they imagined.
She came in hemorrhaging and gasping. They stabilized her but there wasn't much that could be done. Her father poured lye down her throat. One nurse quit healthcare after that. She couldn't take it anymore.
True story.
This guy's son was on ECMO. It's a heart lung machine. It went on for a long time, and they eventually realized there was no way the kid could live without the machine, but it has to stop sometime because the kid was actually rotting at the points of entry.
This kid was wide awake, in his father's arms when they turned it off.
True story.
Bunches!! :grin:
To the extent a cat be owned and is not a semi-wild animal.
In your experience?
But seriously, how do you define dignified?
Yes
Quoting LuckyR
having or showing a composed or serious manner that is worthy of respect.
Quoting Tom Storm
God knows (or maybe he doesn't).
Quoting Hanover
Yes. more than likely apocryphal.
As for jerking off into the pizza, pissing in the mustard, spiting on the KFC, the burger; or making Chinese hot and sour soup out of the left overs on the plates coming back to the kitchen, these are probably 99.5% apocryphal tales. Meaning something of the sort has happened but not very often. I've been hearing these stories since...1965 when I was living in college dorms.
There are "urban myths" about batter fried rats turning up in KFC, cigarette butts in Coka Cola (back when it was in glass bottles), and so on. Not that these things NEVER happened, just that they may or may not have happened once.
These stories may arise out of related information or prejudice about workers. In the real world, we have outbreaks of disease arising from feces getting on melons. How did that happen? Lettuce that makes 300 people very sick. Reports in the news about filthy restaurant kitchens. Workers are usually to blame, the stories go.
Health risks? Things go on in kitchens (public and private) that you really don't want to know about.
When I was coming back home, I was listening to 'Don't Let Me Down' by The Beatles. This song has always been iconic because the band played on the rooftop of a building in London. Then, I started to think if I ever did something on the rooftop of the building I live in.
When I was a kid, I went up to the sixth floor where the rooftop is located. I can't recall why I was there, but there were stones on the ground, and I remember this because I actually asked my friends:'Why the hell are there stones on the rooftop?'
The concierge scolded us for being there and threatened to tell our parents. We walked down the stairs laughing.
In my teens I once smoked a joint with some then-friends from school, before they lost their minds, on my roof. Not to imply they all lost their minds whilst on my roof, simply that it happened to occur in later years. It was after school and nobody was home so one of us came up with the idea of getting on the roof. If I recall correctly we got on top of my buddies car that was parked adjacent to the overhang and then hoisted ourselves up.
Unfortunately, shortly after, my ever-vigilant mother (may God rest her soul) happened to pull up unexpectedly and off schedule. We went to the other, obscured side of the pitched roof and if I remember correctly, had to jump off it to the ground below. We did so and entered the back door of the house which entered into a small laundry room. I heard what was presumably my mother's inquisitive knocks at the front door so to make sure everyone was able to depart without scrutiny I proposed a code phrase I would utter loudly when I opened the front door to confirm it was in fact my mother and that upon hearing it my companions were to leave out the back door into their car and to be on their way.
Non-Christians were expressly forbidden in my household, mind you. Especially unsupervised! So I opened the door and in fact it was her, said the agreed upon phrase, and likely smelling at least moderately of marijuana calmly explained I had stayed late after school missing the bus to partake in a limited time extracurricular activity and was only able to get a ride back from some friends who happened to have been smoking, which I assumed was tobacco, and did not partake in the least. I don't think she quite believed me but nevertheless the topic never came up again. True story.
Once I saw a beautiful woman on the roof, so I summoned her to my lair, but she was married. I impregnated her nonetheless, but I didn't want her husband to know, so I encouraged him to sleep with her so he'd think the child his. He refused, claiming he was a soldier on active duty and obligated to spend his time only with his fellow warriors. As king, I arrived at the sinister plan to send him to the front lines where he would die and never learn of the adulterous affair. My plan worked, but our child would be born only to soon die, leaving me devastated. We remained together however, having a second child who be the wisest of all and would inherit the throne.
I wrote a song about it, as only through art might I endure such tragedy.
True story.
The operative word being: "story".
Sure. Next you will tell us about how you fought a giant.
BC, are you drunk my friend?
Quoting Outlander
It is obvious that what you wrote is a true story. Everybody here believes it. One of the main things I have learned is that people feel more confident about sharing life experiences in a thread than in real life.
You seemed that way, that's all.
I'm the jar.
No. I'm this octopus in a jar:
In both, once again, he's the center of the universe,.
Yeah, it's getting deep!
Nice. Although I was thinking more of an "Alien" analogy where I'm John Hurt. Like that cathartic energy.
I had the jar as the external restraint on the octopi of humanity, which is also a good name for a band
By the pedantic way, 'octopi' is incorrect because 'octopus' is based on Greek ' octo' -- eight -- and pous/pod --foot-- not Latin. Go forth, armed with this invincible knowledge.
Octopae. My bad.
Had I been drunk I would have fallen off my chair before I would have been able to post a picture of plaid pants, spurs, and octopods escaping jars.
Note: I am not drunk at this time. I should probably append that statement to all my shoutbox posts.
But the main nature of the southbox is the irony. It will be difficult (at least for me) to know if your post is ironical, literal or allegorical!
Also: go back to practice and improve my jazz piano style.
And: less screen time, more reading.
Realistically... for the rest of your (hopefully) long, healthy, and happy life.
due to the time zone, Australia is near to starting the year 2024. So, our mates, @Tom Storm and @Banno, will live in a time travel paradox because while they were in a new year, we were in another (in the past). They are then suddenly surprised to find two versions of themselves: 2023 TPF Banno and Tom, and 2024 Banno and Tom in 'real' life. I consider the shoutbox more real than my daily life, by the way...
Honestly, this is the only moment of the year when we can put into practice the empirical existence of the blurred concept of time.
Between 31st December and 1st January we will all have disturbing consequences for the metaphysics of identity. But specifically, Banno and Tom.
And @Wayfarer. :wink:
This phrase should be posted on the TPF quote cabinet.
I think I have never interacted with him. But thank you for letting me know he is an Aussie as well, so I can confirm there is another person who will suffer disturbing consequences for his metaphysical identity in just a couple of hours. :smile:
And @Janus I think.
UTC+8:45, WTF?
Remember that planet earth has different accumulations of mass making it uneven, which means that spacetime is slightly uneven in relation to other places on the surface. So, depending on where you are, you exist in different speeds of reality compared to others, however accurate your clock is to your timezone. Add gravitational waves and everything gets wobbly to the point that no one is accurately in neither the right place or time compared to everyone else.
Makes it even harder to count down to midnight :party:
The Spanish timezone is more crazy than that. The Greenwhich meridian goes through Spain but you’re UTC+1.
Either this represents the end to a ridiculous year or it is an omen of what is to come.
:100:
Quoting Hanover
:scream:
Yeah, this is so interesting to me. Because whilst we are talking about time zones and Christmas stuff, there are some mates from Australia and New Zealand who are already in 2024.
As Banno pointed out, they (a person from Australia) are always living in our 'future' and this fact blew my mind this morning (well, their eve, specifically speaking). In this context, I appreciate the effort of the states to establish the UTC to avoid possible confusion.
Yet, this subject reminds me of Kant when he stated that time is only empirically real and 'does not exist' independently among things in themselves.
There is a lot of Franco's weird stuff which we haven't got rid of yet. Our UTC+1 is one of them...
Well, time for a coffee break. I'll tell you the rest in a minute.
Hang on a sec. Cigarette break.
Quick glass of wine before the next episode.
Case in point, Spain does resemble England in that aspect. Pretending not to care while snarkily throwing shade and insulting. It is okay to have negative emotions, getting on the high horse for not having them then displaying them right after is not okay — disagreeable behaviour.
It vas a woman.
"Are you OK", I azked her without even realizing I 'ad zpoken.
"No, I'm not OK", she replied. "I am the only person left on this campus and it's New Year and it's boring and..."
"I am here too."
She looked at me sceptically.
"Are you a person?"
I zuppose I must have been a little mezzed up after my conquest of ze great lizard. Perhaps I waz even phyzically indistinguishable from zat great canine agglomerate, Joe. But I had an answer:
"I zink zerefore I am, Madam!"
I could see ze scales lift from 'er eyes and she zaw me zen for who I am, a great philosopher, and even, a human being.
"It's midnight!" she said.
"Happy New Year!"
Quoting Baden
Am I the only mate who broke in tears in this part? Jesus Christ, Joe is a lovely and loyal canine. I had been worried about him during all the story and when I saw his ears and snout I started to cry of pure happiness. (It is obvious that the latter is part of my imagination and I thought this is what Biden saw when Joe rose into view!)
Quoting Baden
FELIZ AÑO.
Thank you, Sir! :pray:
I also thought had you referred to your coffee as a pot of Joe and cup of Joe you could have kept it more confusing.
At the end I was thinking the young women would become a love interest and maybe you'd have to use your bogman powers to save her from the lizard, but the story ended suddenly, leaving your readers hanging on for the sequel.
I had to finish at exactly midnight New Year here (for the meta)! Else I would've turned into a pum'kin.
Quoting Hanover
Well observed. :eyes:
Hmm…
This place would be really worth visiting. At least I just discovered a location where I can experience time travel whenever I want.
We are missing just under 8 hours here, so it is time to eat and make preparations for getting drunk as hell. As this will be the first time in about 4 years I intend to try as hard as possible to succeed in getting really well blasted tonight.
Cheap Portuguese beer and cheaper [s]Jamaican[/s] Virgin Island rum with coconut will be used in the process.
These images are used for educational purposes, not advertising.
See you all next year.
There must be other places where this happens?
I think that’s impossible to get over. I suspect Australia has a lot of time travel. Does the government have any responsibility for this?
Yep. We blame them for everything.
The site is located on the land of the Navajo people.
This boy is experiencing the miracle of being in 4 states at once.
There is a 1,636 megawatt coal fired power plant near by. It's owned by a consortium of SW U.S. utilities. It burns 'sub-bituminous' coal from a Navajo Mine next door, delivered by a dedicated electric RR.
3 of the 5 units were shut down a few years ago to reduce air pollution.
But is there any time travel involved?
It's amusing that these arbitrary bits of geography take on a "spiritual" significance.
Quoting Banno
It seems that time travel is not involved in that boy’s action but something similar to Schrödinger's cat, aka a quantum superposition.
And should he kill a man where he stands, where does he get tried? Might he stand in Arizona and smoke reefer while the condemning Mormons of Utah look on? Can he flee prosecution by staying literally one step ahead of the law? Which school district would the boy attend if he declared his residence at that point? Where would he pay his state income tax?
Where you see mystery and intrigue, I just see jurisdictional nightmare.
Schrödinger sat down on the pointed marker and was soon filled with remarkable sensations and thoughts. One of my clients (coincidentally another German) who entertained all sorts of stupid nonsence, was very enthusiastic about the vortexes in Sedona, Arizona. He went there several times and acted upon the advice he received through the vortex.
He's dead now (the client; Schrödinger died a long time ago). An evil spirit passed through the vortex from an A.U. and infected him with diseases hitherto unknown to medicine.
At least he had interesting experiences.
Quoting Hanover
Think positively. Think REVENUE!!!
The lines intersect on a hill in the middle of the city. Perhaps it is coincidence, perhaps it is a similar vortex to the one BC describes, but vast sums of money have been known to enter that hill, never to be seen again. It is also the centre of the famous "Canberra Bubble". Those inside the bubble immediately forget everything they knew about the outside world.
Scottish folk singer, educator and musician JEAN REDPATH performs here. She died in 2014. Among other honors, she was a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE). I had seen her perform several times.
@javi2541997 Here's the Scottish lyrics; might as well be Jabberwocky.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And auld lang syne!
Chorus:
For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne.
We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
And surely ye'll be your pint stowp!
And surely I’ll be mine!
And we’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
Chorus
We twa hae run about the braes,
And pou’d the gowans fine;
But we’ve wander’d mony a weary fit,
Sin’ auld lang syne.
Chorus
We twa hae paidl’d in the burn,
Frae morning sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar’d
Sin’ auld lang syne.
Chorus
And there’s a hand, my trusty fere!
And gie’s a hand o’ thine!
And we’ll tak a right gude-willie waught,
For auld lang syne.
Chorus
Then how do you explain the strange goings on at Capital Hill and thereabouts?
Capitol Hill in Washington wasn't laid out with ley lines intersecting the Rotunda. Be that as it may, vaster sums of money than Canberra's have regularly disappeared in that building, practically like a conveyor belt. I don't know how to explain what goes on in Australia. Here it's plain old fashioned Celtic waste, fraud, and abuse.
I don't do this often but I recently came across something so insane I nearly couldn't help myself.
I understand every post outside of the Shoutbox or Lounge should be not only both serious (and trust me this one would be) and well-thought out but also of a directly relative and contributive nature to the OP or topic at hand.
Presumably, if the post in question is in fact all of the above, surely my reply questioning or rather explaining how one or more assertions or claims are incorrect must be as well? :chin:
Best,
Outlander
Quoting Baden
A fine example of not accurately being in the right place at the right time. Damn those gravitational waves.
Quoting Paine
If that's what it takes to keep those gravitational waves at bay, then sure as hell, go for it!
Don't step on that crack between the four states or you're a goner, flung far into the mysterious realm of pure lawlessness.
Let's just stay here in the real world, and talk about when the New Year really begins...
I say it begins when the hangover ends and resolution is firm. Without resolution it's just the same old thing.
Is a Russian grappling style incorporating strikes. Easy out if you’re ever in a pickle
OMG! You inspired me to check my own count. I'm two posts a way from 12,000. Make that one... Gotta go, I'm very busy, I have another post to do.
I used to be a numerologist, but I got cocky with some of the numbers and I got fired for two things: (1) hubris, and (2) numbering things as 2 when there was just 1.
True story
The clothes don't dry when I open the door to my garage because dryers stop drying when the door is open, and the clothes know this and so they do as they were reared.
One clothes of mine, Jiminy Blueshirt. remarked to another clothes of mine, Peggy Onesock, that he didn't like the slowdry of the dryroom, but he preferred the quickdry of the drybox. Peggy disagreed, but she likely was just distraught and being contrary due to her losing her partner, Robert Othersock.
wrong in retrospect as well as at the time.
Yes. You ought be employing your talents elsewhere. Shame.
That actually happened to me twice. The first time, I didn't appreciate what I had and I left in search of something more only to return back to see that it had all been stolen by Jeff. The second time, it was good until I got divorced and my ex got the whole bush and I got the mortgage on the bush. So unfair, but what are you going to do?
Then I unbirded and got a job selling auto parts wholesale direct to the public so as to eliminate the middle man. It was a pretty good gig for a while, but then I lost my keys.
It is to teach you that sometimes in life there just aren't do overs. When I was a kid, you typed, and if you typed wrong, there it remained. You might try to cover it up with all sorts of things, but it was still there if you looked hard enough.
There might come a time when we have to go back to those times, so a feature was installed to create some level of unpredictability so you'll still know what to do if Ctrl-Z is not available, God forbid.
The old key problem. I no longer have a key. I have a fob. With my new Toyota, you just push a button on the dashboard and it turns on. I feel like I'm driving a fake car.
Hey, I have 100 comments! Wohoo!
Edit: Now I have 101, darn!
Edit 2: Now I have 102, double darn!
...
I had the same sensation with my 2020 KIA. But what goes around comes around: I learned to drive many years ago in a 1939 Buick sedan that had a chrome button you pushed in to start the engine.
You probably should have, but it depends. Life plans? A liberal arts BA with a major in English, History, Philosophy, etc. is acceptable for many employers outside of academia. The degree proves you can persist at a task for several years; you can manage abstract material; you can meet deadlines and fulfill expectations, etc.
If your life plans are focused on teaching college, you'll probably be disappointed. Too many PhDs, not enough students. If you want to be a doctor, maybe biology would have been a better choice. If you have no idea what you want to do in life, then it doesn't matter.
“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where.
The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere.
The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”
? Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
Wow! Why did they switch over to keys?
Quoting BC :lol:
Quoting Joseph Goebbels
Even though most articles about this quote will not put it like that, it is clear that they imply Goebbels is a cartoonishly evil character explaining his master plan (propaganda strategy): lying. Goebbels was indeed a very wicked character even for his time, but since Germans today are intelligent people, I don't think they were so stupid back then, especially when there were so many great scientists and philosophers and intellectuals there at the time, even more compared to today, there is no way they would not raise eyebrows at one of their leaders admitting to lying to their faces.
Well, I did some research and there is no evidence Goebbels ever said that, the quote actually comes from a 1972 book by psychoanalyst Walter Charles Langer called "The Mind of Adolf Hitler". And the closest thing to it actually comes from Hitler, in Mein Kampf, though he is talking in general, not about his rhetorical strategy. The Jewish library itself says there is no evidence Goebbels has anything to do with it, even though a Harvard professor quotes it on his blog.
Another one is "Accuse the other of that which you are guilty", also attributed to Goebbels. There is no evidence he ever says that, instead, in his Nuremberg rally of 1934, he says "The cleverest trick used in propaganda against Germany during the war was to accuse Germany of what our enemies themselves were doing.". Ironically, by misquoting, they grant Goebbels of all people his point.
I found the quote as early as 1869 in a book entitled, A Crown of Life by a one Isa Blagen.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/48040008-the-crown-of-a-life-by-the-author-of-agnes-tremorne
Mine is Shoutbox scholarship at its finest.
Given your "passing, fleeting, even" interest in history, how did you go about determining that there was no evidence for what Goebbels did or did not say? As the Hitler's Minister of Public Enlightenmen [i][sic][/I] and Propaganda he wrote and said a lot of things. You checked all that out?
It is the case that many very famous quotations are apocryphal. Somebody should have said it; somebody did say it; just maybe later, in another place.
Dorothy Parker and Claire Booth Luce were social rivals and did not like each other. Once they arrived at a door at the same moment, Who would go first? Luce beckoned to Parker saying, "Age before beauty." Parker, no slouch at sarcasm, proceeded through the door saying, "Pearls before swine."
True?? Hollywood columnist Sheilah Graham claimed that she heard it directly from Parker in 1938. That doesn't mean the quote was produced under those circumstances. What is certain is that Parker is the source of one of the greatest putdowns of all time.
My guess is that a number of people have gone on record saying, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth." If Donald Trump didn't say it, it seems to be his modus operandi.
I think you would get more out of making such points to the purveyors of theism, as they have such a major influence, and imo (I agree with Hitchens), a pernicious influence, on the sociopolitical everyday lives of people at a local, national, inter-national and global level. If we cannot be absolutely sure about what a modern pig like Goebbels said, how much less, can we be sure about what Jesus said, or even if such characters were just invented by later 'storytellers with an agenda.'
The way I determined there is no evidence is because there is no evidence anywhere. And the exact quote is found in a 1972 book and not attributed to Goebbels. Skimming through the rest of your comment, you are clearly a psychologically unwell person. I advice seeking help.
Quoting universeness
That is true. Nazis today are completely irrelevant. I only decided to post it here because I did the research anyway, and it is good to have it documented somewhere so people don't make the same innocent mistake as the Harvard professor.
When it comes to religion, I do make such points against the Islamic influence here in Europe, but I don't see how that is related at all.
Quoting universeness
I don't think Jesus was a real person honestly.
Oh sorry, I didn't realise I was dealing with a sad wee troll.
Quoting Deleted user
That's why folks like you are no defence against folks like them.
You are part of the problem.
Quoting Deleted user
No shit Sherlock!
Quoting Deleted user
I advise you to learn how to spell 'advise.'
I am not trolling anyone, in fact the thing you quoted is not addressed to you. Going off your deranged reply, however, it seems it would be well-suited to address it to you as well.
Quoting universeness
I don't care, I don't respect the English tongue.
If you cannot debate in a rational manner then you should just get some rest, before you hurt yourself trying to understand what research is.
Here is some music to help you with your trolling tendencies and your professed disrespect for the english language.
What's that got to do with it? We know that Daddy Bear said "Who's been eating My porridge?", and Gandalf wrote "Not all who wander are lost.".
I don't think @Deleted user @universeness or @unenlightened exist either - they are mere pseudo-names; but that doesn't prevent us from saying things and knowing what we each said.
I thought Tom Sawyer was a great book when I thought it was written by Mark Twain, but then I learned it was written by Samuel Clemens and then I thought it sucked.
Well, based on some quick research (google search), 'Who's been eating my porridge' was penned by Robert Southey and J. K. Rowling penned 'Not all who wander are lost.'
Perhaps 'blessed are the peacemakers,' was penned by some ancient author we have no knowledge of and was not said by the biblical Jesus character. @universness does exist as it's one of my 'nom de plumes.' He is a real boy and not an invented character. Do you not think that these are important differences to state or have I missed your meaning?
And had anyone been eating his porridge? Or was he a goddam liar, putting words into a bear's mouth?
Quoting universeness
And as to that, You are alas mistaken. The author in question Was JRR Tolkien. But by convention, we do not claim that authors have said everything their characters say, on the basis that, for example, Plato would become an unreadable mass of contradictions. Rather in the same way, we do not convict actors in police dramas of crimes they confess to as characters.
My point is that we know that the Jesus that Christians care about said the things that he is reported as having said, whether such a person existed or not, and pedantic literalism is a stupid waste of time, and unfit even for shout box discussion. Or else, if you disagree, you should be ashamed of posting here under false pretences.
Talking bears are like the talking snake (or malformed Lilith) from the Eden fable. Just made up shit.
Quoting unenlightened
From :Archetypes in fantasy fiction:
In Rivendell, Frodo recollects the wizard's words in song: "All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost" (LOTR 240).
I cannot quote every word from all the Harry Potter books and I did not claim that Rowling penned these words 'first.' It's easy to do a little research and make a dodgy claim, isn't it!
From: Lyzasnape
Summary: The term continues on after Sirius' death, and Harry Potter is not okay. Wandering about aimlessly, Harry attempts to be who everyone wants him to be while slowly coming undone. Life has never been easy for The Boy Who Lived in the Cupboard Under the Stairs, but this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Will anybody notice that Harry Potter is breaking? Is there hope? Perhaps it will soon ring true that "not all who wander are lost." This story is part of the series, Not All Who Wander are Lost. The next story in the series is What Remains.
Quoting unenlightened
This is just absolute nonsense imo and irresponsible. The truth is what matters most, especially when the existence of the biblical Jesus, is such an incredibly important question for human civilisation.
Quoting unenlightened
I absolutely do disagree and it's you that should be ashamed (shout box or anywhere else,) for your unwise and unenlightened style of 'downplaying' or diluting the importance for all humans to learn how vital it is to be able to discern between the search for objectively verifiable truth and faith based claims of what is true. Faith is thee worse way to assign any high credence level to any posit, imo.
Your commitment to truth does not even run as far as to accept correction when it is offered. The Harry Potter books were written by JK Rowling, and Frodo is a character in Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien. Two entirely different religions.
Quoting universeness
So you learn nothing from Plato's Dialogues? I'm not surprised. Or do you think they are literally true? Seriously, if you are only interested in facts, you'd be better off on a science forum. But fictional characters can say true things, anyway.
Did you even read what I posted?
Quoting unenlightened
I will let you keep learning from the ancient musings of such as Plato. I find the musings of such as Carl Sagan or even those still alive, such as Matt Dillahunty or Forrest Valkai etc to be of far more value to the future of our species compare to Plato.
Do philosophers and philosophy place as much or more value on fables as they do on facts?
The authors of fictional characters can say true things only if those things being presented as truth can be verified in a sound and reliable manner.
I very much doubt you’ve read Plato, or really any philosophy at all, which again makes me wonder what the hell you're doing here, aside from evangelism.
Value? What is value? I cannot speak for all philosophy, but there is a fairly widespread distinction in philosophy between fact and value, such that the value one places on facts is not another fact, except in the trivial sense that one has made some declaration. And the value that one places in facts is therefore a matter of faith, and not a matter of fact.
philosophy
/f??l?s?fi/
noun
noun: philosophy
1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
2. A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour.
Description 2 should answer your:
Quoting Jamal
As to how much academic philosophy I have 'read.' I am not much interested in 'quantity comparisons' with you, I value quality of understanding more.
Is nothing to do with this website.
Sure, value is a subjective measure but as a democratic socialist, concordant values are paramount in influencing and deciding the direction a particular group of humans or the entire species, decides to take.
Inventing persistent people is more difficult (imho) than attributing words to people. Jesus probably existed; his actual existence might not be the existence depicted in the gospels. The Jesus Project was an effort by a crew of biblical scholars to boil down to a certainty what Jesus did and did not say. A majority of Jesus' lines ended up on the cutting room floor.
The Jesus Project didn't have at its disposal a time machine to eavesdrop on Jesus and the 12 or attend the blockbuster sermon he gave on a small hill, sadly. What they did have was lots of knowledge about the history of the politics of the time and of the early church, as recorded by various writers. Did Jesus really break a loaf of bread and say, "this is my body" or pour wine and say "this is my blood"? Or, were these words developed as part of a memorial ritual and back-attributed to Jesus?
Did Jesus say, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (which in the Gospels comes off as a dodge to get around a trap being set by those devious Pharisees) or was this back attributed to Jesus? Rendering unto Caesar is a tricky problem, which is why the tax code is so complicated.
Anyway, the Jesus Project pretty much ruins Jesus' part in the movie, depriving him of all his good lines. We could go further and say that Jesus existed (as one of numerous holy men with a following) whose reputation was built out by an organization that had no personal contact with Jesus.
The problem many people have with the Jesus Project (and the dismissals of Hitchens, Universeness, my esteemed self, et al) is that we don't know what really happened either.
What is so annoying about people like @Deleted user is that they think they have unraveled a great crime when they find a mis-attribution of a famous saying. Like, Goebbels would have still been executed after the Nuremberg Trials if he and his wife hadn't killed themselves and their children in Hitler's bunker.
A good way of putting it.
As you also suggest with 'back attributed,' it is also quite likely that what made the final cut was the attributes and scenario messages the true authors intended.
Quoting BC
Yep, I agree.
I suspect the gospel of Thomas never made the cut as Jesus is presented as a very nasty youth indeed.
You are rambling! What is a subjective measure? It sounds like an elastic ruler where you can put the marks where you like. Aka, nonsense.
Quoting BC
Another triumph of pedantic fact chasing that ignores how the story of Jesus changed the world and informs the structure of Western society to its very roots. What does it matter who exactly produced the commandment, 'Love your neighbour'; surely what matters is how a life led according to such values affects the world?
If you wanna get Panto, then oh no i'm not, but you are!
A subjective measure is, for example, a personal assessment of that which is claimed as true by those who have inadequate or non-existent evidence for their claim.
Is your elastic ruler your analogy for an expanding universe or how theists try to measure the omni characters of the god they also posit as ineffable to humans? Who is really on the side of the nonsense peddlers between you and I?
Would you like to offer your opinion (Aka, subjective measure?)
It's worth a look. Rather cryptic and Zen-like at times, but quite compatible with the more familiar stories by and large.
A great narrative beats "the facts" every time. There's no such place as Middle Earth, but that hasn't kept me from spending a lot of time there. Likewise MML&J.
Some highlights:
[i] One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Quran 5:110 and in a medieval Jewish work known as Toledot Yeshu, although Jesus's age at the time of the event is not specified in either account.
In another episode, a child disperses water that Jesus has collected. Jesus kills this first child, when at age one he curses a boy, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse. Later, Jesus kills another child via curse when the child apparently accidentally bumps into Jesus, throws a stone at Jesus, or punches Jesus (depending on the translation).
When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, Jesus miraculously strikes them blind. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but tries to teach the teacher, instead, upsetting the teacher who suspects supernatural origins. Jesus is amused by this suspicion, which he confirms, and revokes all his earlier apparent cruelty. Subsequently, he resurrects a friend who is killed when he falls from a roof, and heals another who cuts his foot with an axe. [/i]
That's what I thought - like the value of facts. A cloak of objectivity in the word 'measure' for mere opinion, like this :
Quoting universeness
You mean like these mere opinions (subjective measures) that you offer.
Quoting unenlightened
Quoting unenlightened
I prefer Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal.
There is a reference to them at Genesis 6:4 where it says, "Here were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." This very strange passage occurs right before the flood story and appears out of place. The book of Enoch offers greater clarity as that being the cause of the flood.
You likely also recall the story set forth at Numbers 13:33 where the spies set out to Canaan to see if it were safe for the Hebrews to enter, but they saw these Nephilim and it scared them, making themselves feel like grasshoppers in their presence, " And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
Fascinating shit if you ask me, evidencing remnants of an older sort of religious tradition and one foreign to the Hebrew bible. This presents much more like what you'd see in Greek, Norse, and other traditions of a polytheism where the gods behaved as humans, having fights, battles, disputes, sex, and all sorts of relationships with humans as opposed to a God being above humans working as an all powerful force.
It shows evidence that the Bible as we know it was created to show a monotheistic tradition, but it also reveals that the monotheism was something that developed over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim#:~:text=The%20Hebrew%20word%20Nephilim%20is,descendants%20of%20Seth%20and%20Cain.
Once the Israelites got established, they cracked down on all the decadence, and the Dutch went to Tenerife instead. Later the Jews bought up the Tenerife resorts, but were less fussy about decadence.
This is a fun rendering:
or this one:
Yes, like them too. Because facts without values are pointless information.
Quoting universeness
I want to help to do what I can to tip the balance against all theism/theosophism/big capitalism/fascism/plutocratic control/celebrity cults etc. Many levels of which wield demonstrable power and influence at the unacceptable level of the socio/economic/political day to day lives of all of us. Doing so matches my democratic socialist and secular humanist worldviews.
If each of us cannot pursue that which matters most to us then having a so-called 'philosophy of life' is moot and imo, academic philosophy is merely the study of a pointless, repetitive, boring series of echos, used and abused since we came out of the wilds.
Philosophy and philosophers would be wretched indeed.
On the topic of values, yes, we have common ground, but on very little else during our current exchange.
To me, you predominantly remain as you label yourself, unenlightened.
I think you will find it a fun read.
I agree that's an interesting subject. Also you might notice that the God of The Old Testament was always jealous and angry, displaying these human emotions. It wasn't until after Jesus that the idea of God being above humans working as an all powerful force was really developed. But still, Jesus is thought to be Son of God. And, the theologians have not yet removed all the humanistic aspects of God, like love and intelligence, sort of narrowing the field to include only what is considered good ones.
I think that is the manipulative part of theology, talking about how God interacts with humans. It's how children are kept in line, by threatening punishment and reward. The philosophical side of theology, like Plato for example, pushes to have such personal interaction removed from the God image altogether. It's an endless struggle amongst the theological authorities, how to represent the relationship between God and the individual human being.
This was one of the theological problems that helped me leave Christianity, the Protestant notion of having a "relationship" with God. I realized that whatever it was that I thought was happening between me and God certainly didn't resemble anything like any other actual relationship in life. It consisted of me praying (which I realized was mostly me asking for help with things I wasn't willing to face myself) and trying to interpret the resultant events of my life as God's cryptic answer. So fucked up, and so sad to see people I know still stuck in this cycle.
Well, not always jealous and angry.
Isaiah 43: I have called you by your name, you are mine. ... Should you pass through the sea, I will be with you; or through rivers, they will not swallow you up. Should you walk through fire, you will not be scorched and the flames will not burn you. ...
For I am Yahweh, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your saviour. Because you are precious in my eyes, because you are honoured and I love you.
Some preachers like to take Jonathan Edwards "sinners in the hands of an angry God" approach:
People forget that this is Rev. Edwards ranting and not God speaking.
I actually think God answers all of your prayers. Just most of the time he says no. It's not a whole lot different if you prayed to me. I'd tell you no most of the time too and tell you to do it yourself. That's one of my most godlike qualities in fact.
Can you ask Him to speak up a bit, as I'm a bit deaf, and sometimes It seems as if He's just deliberately ignoring me. It's like when you send Father Christmas your present list, and you don't get a clear 'no', just an inaudible 'wait and see', followed by disappointment and a pair of socks.
I wonder if those giants could be based on the Sea Peoples, who raided the Levant at the end of the Bronze Age, and we think today that the Sea People were mostly of European origin, some of them coming from even farther North than Greece, and as we know, Serbians and their neighbours today are awfully tall people. The Nephlim were even thought of as great warriors and half angel. Thracians were known for being extremely fierce people, and perhaps the lighter features helped them being thought of as half-angel? Food for thought.
Quoting Hanover
This short documentary on Youtube talks about it, I recommend it:
It claims it takes the research from this book, so at least it is not full of s**t.
@BC said they were Dutch. I assume they were the Dutchmasters wearing funny hats and smoking cigars.
Well that sounds like psychological projection. I did the research for a purpose outside of this website and decided to share it here as a historical curiosity, because information is never too much.
With respect, I'd say these guys are pretty close to practicing scientism and not philosophy. I share many of their presuppositions, but they simply bracket off the hard questions of philosophy. Dillahunty has a smattering of philosophical acumen - enough to know to remain silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics for the most part. Unfortunately his public persona is that of an intemperate bully - a prick, if you like. I think on this subject it is useful to separate what is philosophy from what is aggressive secular humanist proselytising.
There is a separate conversation about what it takes to respond to the political and social implications of fundamentalists and evangelicals, but I'm not sure if this is philosophy, even if it borrows from the subject. I think we need more liberal Christians to enter this debate with the fundies.
It's a burden but it takes a life-time to achieve.
They are tall. The average height of Serbian men is 5 feet 11 inches--an inch less than the average Dutch man.
In any event, the Nephlim. whatever they might be, were probably neither Dutch nor Serbian, because in 1200 b.c.e. these particular ethnic groups had not formed, and/or were not living in Western Europe. The South Slavic Serb group arrived in the Balkans after 400 a.d. The Dutch formed out of the proto-Germanic people in Europe, but where they were in 1200 b.c.e. is anybody's guess.
There was a lot of 'churn' going on in both the Roman Empire and in the peoples living north of the Danube and Rhine rivers. Given that these various people are tall now, they probably had the genes for potential tallness, if they were well fed as children.
Otherwise, the Sea People are a mystery to me.
I did not read past the second line but I get what you are saying.
Quoting BC
From my experience, Serbians are just as tall, if not taller. I believe the average height of Serbians in statistics is twisted by gypsies, Albanians, and old people. Montenegrins are even taller I heard.
In any case, I suggested that the supposed Nephlim were not Serbians, but the people who inhabited that region back then. Serbians are not fully Slavic, they have a lot of ancestry from the original Balkans people. I imagine that Bulgarian are more Thracian than they are Balto-Slavic, but I would have to do a quick amateur admixture analysis.
[hide="Reveal"]According to some, the shortest people would actually be miscarriages — but I don't wanna start another political discussion.[/hide]
I guess you haven't been reading what Hanover posts.
I would like to present you with your Shoutbox Scholar diploma, good sir or madame. Congrats, now get off the podium.
I always thought it was the Jones's. Or are the Jones's the ones who are always one step ahead of the Johnsons?
I'd love to see that. Unfortunately, biblical literalism tends to result in liberal Christians being dismissed by fundamentalists as not TRUE CHRISTIANS.
Yes, "Liberal Christian" is ultimately another way of saying "future apostate". I would know.
Quoting Noble Dust
Often the case. I was brought up in the Baptist tradition (Australia in the 1970's) which then and now consisted of many liberal and autonomous churches which taught that the Bible was a series of allegories and, unsurprisingly, that literalism was naive and dangerous. Unfortunately they were not very successful in explaining how allegorical scriptures are meant to be of use. Or why a belief in god matters. Although I was always left with a fondness for the parable of the good Samaritan which has remained with me.
The Jones begot the Johnsons, thus the "son" designation. My son is Hanoverson. My grandchild will be Hanoversonson. I see no problem with this method.
The problem is that liberalized religions and even atheists and agnostics buy in to these restorationist claims by fundamentalist groups and accept their authenticity.
Typical threads here that attack religion accept the narrative that the literalist traditions are in fact the most authentic representations of the religion and then they go about their attack, ignoring the liberal branches as being only ad hoc modifications of real religious doctrine created to salvage an unsustainable belief system.
I also think that liberal theists have this reservation in claiming their views authentic, but instead somewhat accept they are a new fangled spin and therefore a corruption from the "true" religion.
What needs to be recognized is that no current day ancient religion is meaningfully similar to its primitive roots, but evolution has occurred throughout. You can't even clearly show a single unified belief system in the early church. Today's liberal views are just part of that evolutionary process, as are literalist views. Neither represent the elusive "true" form.
The point here is that liberal Christians (or any religion) need to fully reject (and fully believe) these current day restorationists/revivalist/primtivists hold no more claim to authenticity than they do. They waiver, as it were, in their own faith in authenticity, which means these fundamentalist groups hold sway over them.
QUOTING 180 PROOF OUT OF CONTEXT:
Quoting 180 Proof
... but it's THEIR ethnonational delusion.
No doubt.
Nice to hear an agreeable take on Dillahunty. His followers are brutal
I feel a bit mean about what I said because I think Dillahunty is sincere and he is better versed in logic than many atheists. I used to find him amusing as a guilty pleasure, but these days I struggle with his vesuvian temper and frequently abusive approach to 'education'. I think the fight with fundamentalism is probably worth having in America, given things like evangelical support of Trump, but I really wish it were other Christians taking up this cause, the way Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong used to do back in the 1980's.
Yummy! Corned beef and warm bread. My favorite. :yum:
I had for breakfast: Circle toast (aka 'bagel') with olive oil and tomato sauce. I no longer eat normal bread, I just got tired of eating the same every day.
Intrinsic to "ambiguity" is the fact that there is no correct interpretation. It is common in general, and especially here at TPF where we assert correctness, that people do not grasp this fact. They insist that there must be a correct interpretation, as if differences in interpretation are produced only as a feature of interpretation. This completely ignores the fact that ambiguity is inherent within the author's words.
That creates a sort of Catch-22 for the interpreters of religious text. Each wants to validate one's own interpretation as in some way more authentic, or better than the others' (therefore appealing to some sort of correctness), to attract followers, all the while allowing for true ambiguity to justify the break from the prevailing authority.
So we want to say multiple interpretations are all valid, and that's simply the nature of ambiguity, and this justifies my break from the conventional. But somehow, for some reason, my interpretation is better than the others. Therefore the need for a personal relationship with God is produced, as the grounds for authenticity. The ones closest to God might appear the most likely to have the most accurate interpretation. Makes me wonder.
A description such as:
Scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. leaves me with the thought that being accused of scientism is in the main, complimentary but I would probably more agree with 'are the best' rather than 'the only way,' but, I am not so far away from exclaiming science and the scientific method as 'the only way.' So I think it would be dishonest of me not to include myself as one of your 'these guys.'
Quoting Tom Storm
I understand your accusations towards Matt but I wonder if you had to deal with the same rinse and repeat points from the theist callers that he gets, that you might also offer some short shrift at times.
I disagree that Matt remains silent on questions of ontology and metaphysics. He simply asks for objectively verifiable evidence and if none is available then he will correctly label the claim 'pure conjecture.' I don't know Matt's academic quals in philosophy but he can certainly discuss the topic with the best of them imo.
Quoting Tom Storm
Philosophy can and often does form the basis of political and social policy making and policy makers. Many members of atheist communities all over the world, contain deconstructed theists like Matt Dillahunty, Jimmy Snow, Shannon Q, and they regularly feature highly qualified theologians from the likes of Professor Elaine Pagels to Dr Bart Ehrman. I think they have all the range of voices they need to effectively combat the more destructive manifestations of theism.
And wonder you should. :grin:
In my case you are kind of preaching to the choir. Although I try to refrain from (in any serious sense) telling others what they need to do.
I myself try to practice grumpy zebra style center's mind.
I think it's even beyond that. Some may interpret within the four corners of the document, others may try to interpret by figuring out the author's purpose, others may see the words as metaphor, others as contextualizing to time and place, but all of these place a microscope on the text and then begin to analyze meaning. That, I'd argue, is an idiosyncratic feature of contemporary analytic thought we impose on the ancients.
Ancient nterpretation used the text as a launching point to write a story to create a message. It was a vehicle used by the religious leaders to offer moral guidance. What the sages say is meant by the text is based upon what ideas they thought advancing, not upon what actually in a interpretive sense it said.
Read this to see what I'm talking about: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/stories-of-our-ancestors/
It's for this reason that the objections from many atheists have no application. They point to biblical text in shock and ask how anyone can live their lives based upon what it says. The answer is, ask that odd breed of reactionary literal fundamentalists who think they've got to fight science for superiority with their brand of literalism, but don't ask me. That way if interpretation is rightly rejected.
Did you listen to any music?
This word, which I’m not very familiar with (I had to look it up), kept popping into my head today, for no reason I can think of, and now I read this. Spooky.
I thought maybe someone else had used it on TPF recently and you (and my brain) were calling back to that—but I can’t find anything.
I see now that I didn't really use it correctly either; I meant it more as "acceptable" but it seems to be more positive than that.
Spooky indeed. Perhaps a sign you should go read my short story and give it five stars.
I don’t think you were incorrect. Several definitions have it as fine or okay. It’s groovy man.
Quoting Noble Dust
Perhaps. I had a look at the titles and thought that Fugue might be yours, just based on the title (which has two meanings that might both be significant)—so maybe I’ll read that one.
As good a place to start as any.
Too Much Information Department
C. E. Funke is not related to the Funk & Wagnalls reference books. The Funk & Wagnalls Company is defunct.
"Look that up in your Funk & Wagnalls" was a regular tag line on Rowen and Martin's Laugh-in in the late 1960s.
You can look that up in Google.
Maybe I'll start referring to Google as Funk & Wagnalls. "Hold on, I'm not sure, lemme Funk & Wagnalls that."
I adress this linguistical fallacy here and here and here.
The word 'spirit' comes from Old French espirt (modern French esprit) or its variants esperit, esperite, esperith, espirit. The word in Middle English could be spelled spirit(t)e, spirid, spiright and many other ways. It does not come from Latin any more than it comes from Proto-Indo-European or from the proto-proto-primo-language that we spoke as Homo habilis.
But it gets worse.
Spiritus does not mean 'to breath', because to breath is a verb and spiritus is not, spiritus is a noun. To breath would be spir?. Spiritus already had the meaning that, say, Spanish espíritu has today — of a soul, ghost, mind or the like. It is true that the original meaning was breath (noun), and the connection between breath and ghost was likely borrowed/inspired by the typically Eastern Mediterranean trope that we see realised in the Hebrew "ruah".
Regardless, the word spirit does not come to English with the meaning of breath, as that meaning had already died off by the time England was conquered by the French. So even if we absurdly say that English "spirit" comes from Latin spiritus (breath), that would be wrong, because it would come from Latin spiritus (soul) instead.
All in all, in a few words Sagan made several mistakes.
Quoting Noble Dust
With it lacking any verifiable etymology, I often interpret “copacetic” phonetically to mean that when one is ascetically coping with things, one is keeping things copacetic. Hence, in this speculated upon sense of the word, its meaning can validly range from “acceptable” to “excellent”. I thereby second that the term’s usage to mean “acceptable” works perfectly well in the sentence "this is copacetic to talk about" ... this via some measure of creative interpretation.
Yes, all this being playfully, just as much as sincerely, expressed. Expressed in a “sincerplaytive” manner, if you will. (No weed was involved in the tentative coinage of this term).
The fallacy is in suggesting that etymology is evidence of a word's meaning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy
Meaning is use.
\\\\\
Isn't etymology evidence of a word's previous meanings via which its current meaning has in large part come to be?
Which I find directly speaks to @Deleted user's affirmation that the English word "spirit" does not mean "breath" - this irrespective of its ultimate Latin etymology (here ignoring Proto-Indo-European roots, etc.), but due to its etymology of Old French meaning, via which the word was assimilated into what is now the modern English lexicon.
What am I not catching onto here?
The etymology cannot trump use for determination of meaning.
Here are a number of examples: https://www.thoughtco.com/etymological-fallacy-words-1690613
I'm not suggesting etymology as a field isn't useful for a variety of purposes. I'm just saying you can't identify what I mean in 2024 by referencing the ancient usages of the word. You need to look at current usages only.
That is, if the ancient Romans spoke of "spirit" as meaning breath, but I mean it is my soul, and that is how we all use it, then that is what it means. If you should insist breath = soul because it's the same word and meaning affixes to a word, I'd say you are committing the etymology fallacy. You can't derive meaning from someone else's use.
I had a French guy who kept using the word "pretend" to descibe what i was claiming, saying things like "you pretend you believe this, " which was annoying until I realized he meant I was claiming it (pretendre, French for "to claim"). Same Latin root in English and French,
but different meanings. It would have been the etymology fallacy for me to tell him when he says pretendre in French that he means "pretend" even when he means "claims."
I think that the Romans used it as more than just the physical act. It was meant as the breathe of life, the essence of the being.
Interesting.
It is understandable where the word 'pneumonia' comes from.
I think when we speak about technical or philosophical words related to medicine, science, physiology, etc. Most of the words come from Greek.
In Spanish, we say espíritu, which you can appreciate its Latin roots. Nonetheless, we also say 'alma' which comes from Latin: anima.
In a religious context, I think most of the words come from Latin.
Interesting question -- why did medicine go with Greek instead of Latin?
Latin would be the language of choice for a lot of theological writing, given that the early church (like, 300 c.e. and following) was romanized even as the Roman Empire was being Christianized. Latin is or was the official language of the RC Church. However, given that the oldest surviving copy of the Hebrew Bible is in Greek (the Septuagint--right? @Hanover), and the early New Testament was written in Koine Greek, a lot of theological terms like kerygma (proclamation) are Greek. Some protestant theologians use Greek terms more than Latin terms.
Yes. I also heard of this. The oldest surviving copy of the Hebrew Bible is actually in Greek. I also learned last year that some authors and historians argue that Jesus (of Nazareth) spoke both Aramaic and Greek, but not Latin.
In addition, The Gospel of Luke which tells of the origins, birth, and death of Jesus is written in Greek.
His name is also Greek (I?sous) which it is a rendering of the Hebrew (Yeshua).
I am starting to think if Latin was a language for the elite group of the Roman Empire in the social context when Jesus was alive. While Greek was the common language among the people. This situation switched with the coming years and the presence of the vast Roman Empire in both Europe and Asia.
Quoting BC
Paradoxically, although most words in medical vocabulary come from Greek, 'medicine' itself comes from Latin. Medicus, meaning "a physician"
I don't think so. It's analogous to saying that someone is descended from Arthur, Ethel, William, and Margaret rather than Edith, Timur, Mathilda and Gary---a particular set of grandparents rather than another set of grandparents.
It's not a fallacy to say that spirit is from Latin, because the fact that it comes mediately from Latin through French is compatible with it. "Comes from" can be used in two ways: (1) descended from via other intervening languages, i.e., indirectly; or (2) meaning a loanword, taken more or less directly from the language in question (Latin).
I come from my grandparents and my parents.
You're right to point out the difference, but you put it too strongly.
Here is an interesting question: could it be the case that your question is not actually an interesting question? Maybe it just happened that way, for no enlightening reason. Maybe there is no single cause. I reckon most of language is like this, and that folk etymology and folk linguistics fill the gap in the way that conspiracy therories do in politics and history: we want to make sense of the world, to find reasons for everything.
Just a thought.
:up:
Quoting Hanover
I don't think Sagan explicitly makes that fallacy too. But you could say so.
Quoting Hanover
I don't think you care, but. If perhaps that is true in English, in other languages it is not. Meaning is not just established by use, but by system more than anything, and by authority just as much as use — sometimes authority trumps use, other times use trumps authority, history will decide. Etymology and analogy also establish use sometimes.
Ah, so many replies. Perhaps I should have clogged up the quote thread instead of kindly posting it here. :sparkle:
That would be the case if we were talking about a hybrid such as perinatal, where we say it comes from Greek or from Latin when in fact it comes from both.
Latin however does not figure in English "spirit" any more than Old Latin or Proto-Indo-European does, as I mentioned in the OC.
Quoting Jamal
I don't think so. I put it so because it does not come from Latin. Why didn't Sagan say it comes from Proto-Indo-European speys- instead? It is just as fair as saying it comes from Latin. There is nothing Latin about English, French was the language of culture in England for 300 years, not Latin.
Inb4: Roman Britain.
English did not exist during Roman times. That was the ancestors of the Welsh.
Quoting javi2541997
Evidently, Jesus lived in Greek half of the empire, not in the Latin one. Speaking Greek back then was like speaking French in 19th century Europe.
I partially disagree with you, Jamal. I think every language has both reason and cause. It doesn't pop up spontaneously. When we use knowledge, we try to give it a reason. Language supports this because it works as a tool to understand things.
On the other hand, I agree with you that maybe it is not so important to know the etymology of the word 'pneumonia' but the cause of this disease and its solution. Yet, if we had never labeled 'pneumonia', maybe we had never identified it.
Otherwise, without a comprehensive language, everything could be messy or chaotic. Maybe nobody cares about naming a territory Spain or Leicester, but we have to say something. We can't say: last summer I was in *****
I am not sure what you mean by 'sort out'; in any case I would be corteous and leave that to a Greek instead of talking about their language when I am not from that culture — a courtesy that some peoples don't seem to be able to practice.
Quoting javra
It has to be. Not only that, but, at least in some languages, etymology keeps coming back over and over.
In Italian the word spirare exists, perhaps an Italian might notice the metaphor between the verb spirare and their word spìrito, as the ppp of spirare is spirato. Spanish and Portuguese on the other hand likely don't have the same privilege in this case, as their ppp would be espirado (an uncommon word already), not so clearly related to espírito/espíritu. But Portuguese has the privilege of knowing where comestível (that can be eaten) comes from, as they say comer for to eat, while Italian commestibile does not make as much sense as the standard word is mangiare instead, as a counter example.
Very relevant, and a strike against the stench of linguistic relativism:
It is not related, indeed. I don't know in Portuguese, but in Spanish, 'expirado' means when a deadline is gone. I studied law and the use of the word is very common. I think I have read it more than 'espíritu', because the latter is only used for spooky contexts.
I think either you misunderstood me, or else you're obsessed. I come from my grandparents via my parents. Spirit comes from Latin via French.
BTW I don't know what Sagan said about it and don't care. I was responding to you.
To which I say, I didn't say that changes do or do not happen spontaneously or that there are no causes of change.
Nobody brought up obsession, but I think you are the one who is obsessed with saying English words come from Latin, not me who is obsessed with saying the truth.
It does not come from Latin, it comes from French, there is no "through" as if French — the European language of culture and the reason English exists — is a tunnel. I have addressed that fallacy several times ¯\_(?)_/¯
I actually think this is a very interesting question. Possibly one of the most interesting of our time. What are you trying to hide from us, @Jamal? :smile:
Could it have been a rebellion against the Church (silly to take seriously now but they were in fact the de facto ruling party of the entire civilized world at one point)? A love story for one Greek woman that was lost to the sands of time? An economic endeavor, no doubt... modern man can only speculate at the lost legends and true tales of those who came before, who, in most ways were a lot like us, not that long ago...
The two words are related, as they share the same root. I said they are not clearly related, as in, Iberian-Latin speakers cannot deduce they're cognates.
Quoting Outlander
They were not.
Yeah, it is apparent how important that principle is to you.
Obviously you are referring to me saying English is not Latin, but French :^)
I do attend to my principle. I just don't extend the courtesy back when people want to defame my culture by claiming it is directly related to English when it is not. The Greeks respect me, I respect them. If X does not respect me, I don't respect back. Any reasonable person would understand my posture.
No, they aren't. At least in Spanish. Did you read my example?
You think your example is germaine to the topic, while I don't see how the meaning of expirar or you being in law connects to the topic.
Espíritu and espirar (different word from expirar even if homophonous) share the same root, therefore they are related, as in cognates — whether they are semantically related is up to opinion. Even espíritu and expirar are cognates too.
Probably, they can share the same root. But be careful! Old Castilian can hold a lot of 'false friends' words!
espíritu. Del lat. spir?tus. fantasma, espectro, espanto, aparecido, aparición, visión, sombra, ánima, duende, genio. https://dle.rae.es/esp%C3%ADritu
Expiración. expiración. Del lat. exspiratio, -?nis. muerte, fallecimiento, defunción, óbito. conclusión, final, terminación. https://dle.rae.es/expiraci%C3%B3n
:wink:
Your argument is comically absurd, and there is likely no substantial disagreement between us, so I’ll leave it there.
To be honest, my response to you was probably too pedantic. I’m used to disagreeing with everything you say about language, so it was automatic. :grin:
I know! But you used an emoji addressing me, and it makes me feel happy. :yum:
That’s what Uncle Jamal is here for. :up:
Language is fundamentally ambiguous. And, it is a mistake to proceed from the ambiguities of today in an attempt to understand the ambiguities of ancient days, because there is a medium of changing languages and translation in between. Therefore we must respect as probable, that the ambiguities of ancient times were completely different, and even a different type of ambiguity, from the ambiguities of today, and look for those ambiguities by referencing ancient work.
That is why it is necessary to pay close attention to ancient stories, and how they were told at that time, if we want to understand the nature of ambiguity and how it evolves over time. The stories help to explain the way that things were understood, which was completely different from the way that we understand things by today's conventions. This difference in the way that things were understood marks a significant difference in the form of the ambiguity inherent within the language.
Ambiguity in general is the result of the over-usage of terms due to a need to expand the existing language. This makes the same word get used in many different ways for the sake of simplicity. Growth and evolution of the human mind in past times is revealed by the growth of ambiguity. So for a basic example, in modern particle physics where we've recently had substantial growth of conceptual structure, we see terms like colour, flavour, and spin, which are existing words used in completely new ways.
The elite in the Roman Empire didn't just speak Latin, they spoke and wrote 'educated' Latin. After the Empire established a western and eastern division, the eastern division (located in Byzantium ----> Constantinople ----> Istanbul) spoke Greek. A lot of Greek slaves were imported into the western empire, where they served as tutors, teachers, etc. Some Romans spoke both Greek and Latin.
What the hoi poloi (a Greek word cooked up in the 17th century to refer to the masses) spoke in the empire would be pretty varied, just guessing. They're native languages, a mix of native and Latin or Greek language.
Koine Greek, in which the New Testament was received by the hoi polloi, was very much a common tongue. It was simpler than classical Greek. Why not Latin? I'm guessing that the New Testament editors were Greek speaking and living in the eastern end of the Mediterranean basin. Quoting javi2541997
Quoting javi2541997
Paradox, indeed. Like "France" is derived from the Franks who were Germans. No wonder the French are bitter and resentful, producing depressing philosophers.
So, where did "Hispania" come from? What aren't you speaking "Iberian" or Lusitanic? There were several Germanic tribes that took over Iberia; why didn't you all end up with a Germanic name/language? Deutschland uber alles.
It's a puzzlement.
Very respectful, but classical Greek is by now fair game. Greece became a Roman province in the 1st/2nd century BC. I referenced you because you are knowledgeable about stuff like this.
Your post references yourself as well. Clever.
Quoting Jamal
It’s been bothering me so I’d like to correct myself. It’s not really about what you’ve read so much as what you're interested in. On top of expressing doubt that you’d read Plato—despite passing judgement on his work—I should have said that you’ve shown no interest in philosophy generally.
But there’s a wide spectrum of interest among the membership here and plenty of the members obviously have no real interest in philosophy, so it’s not like I’m gonna start banning people for it.
Special jargons, like legalese, medical writing, philosophy, etc. either pose comprehension barriers or they just smell bad.
They also ease communication within the group.
The feeling is mutual. Agree to disagree.
I am not sure what you are getting at with false friends (heterosemántico), but the links you provide all prove my point, expirar and espirar and espíritu are all cognates, as are espiritual, espiritar, conspirar, respirar, inspirar, aspirar, etc. Any Spanish linguist will tell you so.
I have had this experience with Iberian people many years ago, you seem to think that cognate means homosemántico when it does not. Cognate means from the same root, which you can promptly verify in the examples I brought up.
Quoting BC
Though it would be fascinating, there is no evidence (that I have seen) of a creole between Greek and Latin. The closest we get is south Aromanian borrowing many Greek elements — but so did Italian, but in a different fashion I imagine, I don't know any Aromanian as it is not even codified.
We were very close to having an Arabic language. Well, a big part of Andalusia is clearly influenced by our past of the Nasrid dynasty. Most of the cities of this region are influenced by Arabic roots. For example: Almería, Granada or Málaga. And we have Arabic words in our language: Almohada (pillow), Berenjena (eggplant), Azúcar (sugar), Almudena (a female name), etc. It is obvious that the influence of the Muslim dynasty was huge, although our ancestors never developed a true Arabic language. Well, a lot of folks passed through the Iberian Peninsula and my language is a mix of them: Greek, Latin, Arabic, Germanic, etc.
But my example proves precisely the opposite. Espíritu y Expirar have a different root, mate. Lionino... Are you trying to troll me again?
Espíritu comes from the Latin spiritus, expirar comes from the Latin exspirare. Both those words clearly share the root spir-. The origin of exspiro is exactly the base verb spiro, which is where Spanish espiro comes from. The origin of spiritus is also the verb spiro, which is why spiritus means breath, as spiro is 'I breath'.
And I have never trolled you once. I do like a good old trolling but I do not do it here as a rule.
Have you ever watched nature documentaries where juvenile male chimpanzees try to establish social dominance?
I recommend looking at with that sort of picture in mind. Smart kid (we can hope) but very wet behind the ears.
Not even close! They do not share the same root. I told you Old Castilian (or Vulgar Latin) holds a lot of 'false friend' words. You read espíritu and expirar, and you quickly think they mean the same and share the same root. Espíritu comes from the Latin 'Spiritus' (do you agree here at least?) and means: Immaterial being. But Expirar comes from the Latin Expirare, and means: When a period of time is gone./ a period of time is running out': "The deadline expires on November 25" It should not be confused with exhaling ('expelling the inhaled air'; ? exhaling). https://www.rae.es/dpd/expirar
They do not have a common root!
You are confusing spiro with expirar...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expirare
I would rather not be analogised with a chimp. I also would rather not be spoken to in the third person.
Not that I ever tried to "establish dominance", otherwise I would be more berating. I saw a comment that indirectly related to me and I politely chimed in, I posted the (requested) reply here so I would not clog up the original thread, and then I was dogpilled by some 5 different people, who did not show basic background info on the topic. I come here to discuss philosophy, not to make friends or enemies.
It is strange to me that sometimes I have to explain such things here.
I have just explained to you how they have the same root. I don't know how to proceed from here. Go ask a Spanish linguist, I recommend this guy.
Right, because they are homophonous but have different meanings, it does not mean they are not cognates, those are all different concepts.
Well, yes. It is obvious that 'Espíritu' and 'Expirar' are somehow cognate or blood relative. More than Cuadrado o Púrpura, for sure. But remember! A stepmother or stepfather is not your real father or mama even though they can love you so much. I know you are very clever and you understand this hyperbole.
Something I've noticed about myself, is that I respect people when they've earned my respect. Now that's not necessarily hard to do for most people. I respect a whole lot of people on this forum and I haven't even been posting here a year. However, I'm not particularly interested in your desire to be treated with respect that you haven't earned.
Evidently you have a dislike towards me, prompted by something that I said but you could not get out of your chest; perhaps this is some ploy where you think you will trigger me into saying something ban-worthy, but my ever-expansive Galactus brain is too cognisant for such a pea-brain stratagem.
This is the very last post I ever write in reply to you. Do not engage with me anymore. All you will do is make me go through the effort of blocking you — maybe that will be something that gives you petty satisfaction.
"Spirit" and "breath" are often combined to give 'spirit' a tangible quality.
Quoting Deleted user
I respect evidence, and if there isn't any, there isn't any.
your response:
Quoting Deleted user
From this I took a fairly negative impression of you. I have since found your posts better than my original impression, but you are very snippy which results in snippy responses to you.
I might be unwell (I don't feel unwell) but the APA has not determined that quoting Dorothy Parker is a sign of psychological unwellness.
They've given their lives for what?
Projection or transference. Some posters here have been nasty to me, and yet I am not being obnoxious in every interaction we have after. Just because I voice my disagreements with courage instead of hiding behind snark it does not mean I am taking offense.
And I don't care enough to defend myself against most of these accusations. We are all online strangers.
Quoting BC
Or maybe the order is the other way around. People get butthurt at me even when I don't address them directly, as the spiritus post and the Goebbels posts I made prove.
The reason why I called you crazy with euphemism is because I shared a historical curiosity (shoutbox scholarship as Hanover says) here and you question me about "how do you know there is no evidence", then you go on a rant about people I don't know about and Donald Trump.
That by itself is almost enough to call someone crazy, but at the time I also thought you were the same person as someone who claimed in some other thread that the world was ending and then went on another rant about Donald Trump.
I really don't care about big bad orange man.
In retrospect, I know exactly why those two posts created so much butthurt by the way.
Quoting baker
Oh boy, expect a Donald Trump rant.
If the forner, carry on in your exploration.
If the latter, I OBJECT!
The word geist is more interesting to me anyway, and I believe it's been discussed here at the Shoutbox some time ago. I'll have to poke and prod around the annals at the Shoutbox to confirm that though.
This post shall usher in the usage "at the Shoutbox" as opposed to "in the Shoutbox." It is classier and more appropriate. And with this statement, it is henceforth so.
Another word to explore other than geist would be logos. Because in the beginning, as John says, that's all there was. Whatever does that mean?
Terry Gross, of NPR's FRESH AIR program asks, "If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?"
Her guest, Bart Ehrman, says:
"John" is more 'theological' than the other three gospels. Probably the theological content (such as, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.") was back-written by an editor who had had time to formulate an understanding of who and what Jesus was. It seems extremely unlikely that any of Jesus' disciples would have thought, written, or said anything like "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." That's theology talk.
Terry Gross is a great interviewer. The link above has a play button to hear the whole interview.
Did you know we have endogenous cannabinoids doing their thing inside us all the time?
Opiates too. And Benzos
For that I find him credible, unlike many atheists.
I have no problem with the atheist position if it's based upon a fundamental theistic rejection, but the ones who base it upon weaknesses in the written record make the error of equating theism with scripture.
What is your belief? No guff, or argumentation to come - Just ascertaining everyone's positions as it's often hard to grok from the exchanges i observe.
I think that's reasonable. Problem is too many public atheists have focused so much on the low hanging fruit of literalism that they have become "fundie busters" with minimal or no philosophical nuance.
I have always tried to be as honest as I can be with TPF members, including yourself.
Sometimes I think you are a very fair and well balanced individual who is a good caretaker/owner of TPF. At other times, my opinion falls rather short of that. You started your latest post to me with:
Quoting Jamal
Such a sentence put's you back up in my estimation.
I certainly am a philosophy neophyte but I learn quickly.
So, I am fundamentally science based but I have also been interested in philosophy for a while now and I think that the two descriptions of philosophy I posted are both valid and important. I think its unfortunate that you posted that number 2, below,
[i]1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
2. A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour.[/i]
Quoting Jamal
You're correct that I have not read Plato's writings directly but by proxy, I almost have. I have heard about Plato words, reported to me since I was a teenager, as part of conversations and references to him and his musings, used by many sources over the years. He remains, for me, a very ancient source whose base concepts such as platonic forms are based on the type of esoteric thinking that I see little value in, and I further think that it is quite irrational to base any sociopolitical worldviews and actual policies, on the musings of someone as irrational and theistic as Plato.
IMO, if this site becomes restricted to discussion of the nuances and flex, available within the purely academic discipline as described in description 1 above, then this will become a more and more irrelevant site and imo, my recent comment to @unenlightenedof:
"If each of us cannot pursue that which matters most to us then having a so-called 'philosophy of life' is moot and imo, academic philosophy is merely the study of a pointless, repetitive, boring series of echos, used and abused since we came out of the wilds." gains more credibility.
To try to exemplify and explain some of my attempts to gain ground in the more 'orthodox' philosophical content of my posts, I pay attention to the postings of those TPF members who I consider far more deserving of being credited with having a strong grounding in academic/historical/contemporary philosophy. So I feel I am now more able to make such posts, as a recent one to @180 Proof here. A totally academic philosophical question imo.
I also do read more academic philosophy now, than I have done before, even going as far as buying a wee book called, 'The Little book of philosophy,' by Rachel Poulton, which I am enjoying.
If, at some point, you and/or your mod team decide that TPF would be better off, without my contributions then that will not be a major event for anyone concerned. We will all take at least .... let's say .... 10 minutes at most, to 'move on.' For some, I am sure it will be closer to 10 nanoseconds. You will not be surprised that my own personal response will be a little disappointment, which will quickly turn to 'their loss.' At least you will make little 'Javi' happy along with the small TPF theist/theosophist contingent, and also those who are more gentle towards those with theist/theosophist leanings, compared to me. Those who seem to ignore the fact that the vast majority of theists/theosophists are very nasty indeed towards atheists or any form of apostasy. You are often a member of that group, imo.
I am a member of many on site forums. Most of my current posts are on TPF but I also post regularly on quora and threads and I am reading and may join such sites as the philosophy stack exchange.
Gaining input from a wide variety of sources helps a person become better informed, yes?
You have said in the past, that I seem to 'bring out the worst in you.' That's not really my problem, is it? Perhaps you also don't like the thought that I also might challenge you enough, to also bring out some of the best of you.
It’s a pretty minimal requirement to read a philosopher’s work before judging it. If you’re honest with yourself I think you’ll admit that. You join a philosophy forum and declare that Matt Dillahunty has done more for humanity than Plato, while never having read Plato and having decided he’s not worth reading. I mean, do you expect to get away with that here without severe criticism or mockery?
The rest of your post is rhetoric that falls pretty flat, in my opinion.
That is a philosophy of life, and therefore moot, But my philosophy of life is that we have to all live on the same planet and therefore our lives interact and so do our philosophies. And what you think is pointless and moot and do not engage with is liable to come back and bite you because people live their philosophies just as you do. If the folk up-river from you do not treat their sewage before discharging it into the river, your bit of river gets contaminated. So we need to talk about limits to freedom, and society, and governance, and how to live together without fighting all the time and poisoning the water supply even if these things don't matter to some, because they live furthest upstream.
I don't understand your angle of approach here. I repeat my opinion that Matt Dillahunty's work on trying to combat pernicious theism is more important than anything Plato ever did or said, or if you prefer, it should be, imo. I am very happy to defend that proposal. I love your 'do you expect to get away with that' challenge. You will not be surprised by my 'bring it on' response. What is your best shot, regarding what Plato offered that is more important than what Matt or someone like Carl Sagan offered?
If the rest of my post to you 'fell pretty flat,' then that's ok. You are as I am, no more than a single voice.
I value individual opinions but I also favour the 'opinions are like arseholes, every human has at least one,' style of comment.
Quoting universeness
Great stuff! Tell us more about your arseholes, so we can kiss them all.
Sure, I broadly agree. Have you never read any of my declarations that I am a democratic socialist and a secular humanist etc?
Sure, but you would first need to stop trying to kiss your own arsehole.
I will answer any question you want to ask me.
This comment barely meets the requirements for posting at the Shoutbox even though we have none.
I have actually read every book Matt Dillahunty has written (currently zero), and would expect that even with those credentials, he'd be embarrassed to see who his supporters are.
Ok ......... mate. :roll:
:lol: Have you also read every book Jesus wrote? or how about all the ones Hanover has written?
How about all the books Socrates wrote?, I could continue into a long list. Your point seems to be utterly pointless.
Why don't you ask Matt about his opinions of his supporters, instead of being arrogant enough to think you have a clue as to what they might be.
I wonder how embarrassed Jesus would be regarding his supporters (if he ever existed.)
additional: Oh, I forgot to ask, have you read all the books the god you believe in, personally wrote? :halo:
Enjoy your feast son, not so sure it is nourishing you, your typings do not suggest to me that you are so well nourished. But this tennis style back and forth is fun, if completely fruitless.
I think there are some tools available to make this easy for you. Don't ask me how to use them, I've just seen them used. Technology is nothing but magic to me. Go ahead, pull a rabbit outta yer hat.
I enjoy reading Kazantzakis and these folks consider me a theist. Oh Jesus!
By the way, I personally thought that you criticized me for being obsessed with Bushido culture. I don't know if this is related to the topic of theism, because there are different cultural approaches. With all the pain in my heart, I have to agree with you. Bushido is not possible to achieve in Western society, and it has been completely abandoned in Japan. Due to the complexity of both politics and economics, it is impossible to keep encouraging people thanks to 'honor' and 'loyalty' because it has zero economic value.
In addition, I suffered discrimination by a group of Japanese last October because of being from Spain, and they doubted my suitability for learning Japanese at all. I am no longer interested in Japan since then... but I do not regret what I have learned until now.
I will always think that Mishima is very important to literature, and I understand why he killed himself due to the decline of real Japan. I don't have any problem with you. I am not even a moderator.
But I see that other mates just checked how you are, and maybe they understand me now why I complained about your hate speech in some areas.
Well, I do hate fascists, bigots, the nefarious rich etc. When I explain why, then I am sure that any supporters they have, will accuse me of making a 'hate speech.' I have no serious evidence that you are a supporter of fascists, bigots and/or the nefarious rich, apart from your rather bizarre attraction to the principles of bushido as it manifest in the Japanese military of WW 2.
You certainly have had a problem with me and you have declared such quite colourfully, imo, on occasion. We started off enjoying a good, positive relationship, but you seemed to become quite irrational, anytime I suggested that the conquistadors were utterly vile. That was not an attack on the Spanish people. If I was alive at the time and held the political views I hold, I could easily have joined the Scots contingent who fought and gave their lives to try to help the Spanish people defeat that Fascist pig Franco that so damaged that country.
If you no longer hold the same disdain against me as you professed then I will also step back in kind but my very low opinion of the conquistadors and the Japanese military of WW 2 remains as it was.
You can't accuse me of support fascism just for reading or veering towards Japanese culture. I think your reactions to my opinions have always been exaggerated.
Hey! We may be small, but we're here dammit. Proud too. And growing every day. :halo:
Meanwhile I cannot help but feel this New Year has not been off to a particularly favorable start for some here, sadly. :sad:
Look at it this way. You're here, you're alive, you made it through another year of this hectic thing we call life. Communicating with (believe it or not) like-minded, intellectual (or intellectually inclined, at least :joke: ) individuals from all corners of the globe in mere seconds at your fingertips. The philosophers of olde surely dreamed of such a reality, such realities we allow ourselves to take for granted in their everyday omnipresence, becoming monotonous as the tides and seasons themselves, if we so allow them to. I for one, refuse such a fate to permeate my understanding and capacity to appreciate that which we seldom take time out of our busy lives to ponder the sheer majesty and vast depths of accomplishment that is the progress of the human spirit. Surely, you will come to realize and appreciate this, no less than monumental, reality and state of affairs, in which we participate and engage in. If only you would extend just a tiny bit of faith, in not just your fellow man, but yourself. :sparkle:
Quoting universeness
:roll: :rofl:
Sorry, mate, but as a p-naturalist (i.e. anti-supernaturalist & atheist) who is also an anti-platonist, I find your ignorant statement about Plato indefensible, especially on a site primarily dedicated to (Western) philosophy. Though Plato's writings express a 'theistic form of mysticism', his dialogue Euthyphro powerfully calls 'divine command theory' into a question and thereby, inadvertantly provides compelling grounds for 'religious skepticism' which is the basis of (e.g.) M. Dillahunty's advocacy of 'secular morality over religious morality'.
The younger and more reckless Hanover would have given Matt a call just so I could ask him, "Hey, Matt, so I post on this website called TPF, and this guy Universeness says you're more important than Plato, but I don't think you think that, but he told me to call you, so I spent the past couple of hours on Spokeo, Linkedin, Facebook, and just random searching, and I finally found you. Discuss this for me online please so that he can know I'm right and he's wrong. Oh, and you look super cute in your pics online. My online name is @Baden. "
Right back at you pal!
I have a great deal of confidence in my fellow humans. We are capable of soooooooo much more than anything born of your sanctimonious valuation of 'faith.' I also have a great deal of confidence and assuredness in myself. I am an optimist. We are an infant species and we are capable of astounding progress and horrific, backwards thinking, mired in ancient bullshit. Perhaps a larger dose of secular fresh air would help your progress towards a better future for us all.
Why am I not surprised that you would disguise your identity even more that the anonymity, TPF already gives you?
I think every scientist, currently or in the past, who is or was involved in the leading edge of their field, was and is far more important to the future of the human race than Plato ever was.
I think all those who in the past and who currently battle against pernicious theism, was and is, far more important to the future of the human species, than Plato ever was. I have no idea whether or not Matt would agree with me. If you pay the small price ($10 or above) and send him a 'superchat,' then he will most likely answer your question. His answer will have little affect on my opinion of ancients like Plato or Aristotle, but it would be interesting to ask him. So try to get back in touch with that younger and more reckless you, but try to encourage him to not hide behind fake ID's.
Trust me sir, if I knew all of your personal details and could find out exactly who you are and where you currently can be accessed, you and yours would be in absolutely no danger whatsoever, from me.
That's ok mate! As an anti-platonist and someone who knows a lot more about philosophy than I do, I accept your insistence that I am making ignorant statements about him. I disagree. His importance to Western culture is way way overblown and exaggerated imo.
Quoting 180 Proof
Firstly, is it not correct to say that the events depicted in the Euthyphro are unconfirmed. Perhaps Socrates said and did what was suggested, perhaps not. To me it hardly matters. 'Piety' is a ridiculous notion and should never have had any influence in any way on the sociopolitical rules/laws that any human community felt compelled to create, in the past, present or future.
As you suggest, Matt makes the more important suggestion, that all moral codes should come from a secular foundation and be 100% based on human beings talking and debating with each other about the well-being of us all. No bullshit input from any theistic influence is required. We need nothing from such notions as piety as we have the far better source of the human capacity for empathy and fairness and justice towards each other.
If you insist that some of Plato's own writings can be interpreted in support of Matt's advocacy of secular morality over religious morality, then so much the better. To me, it seems rather unimportant. We don't need anything from Plato, as the idea that secular morality is far better than morality born via fear of pissing off violent gods :rofl: was always true. It was true and was probably talked about amongst many humans, way way before Plato, was still at the gamete stage in his parents or ancestry all the way back to Africa. Compared to Newton or Einstein etc, Plato was a bit player, no more important than thousands of his like who remain unknown to us. I think someone like Hypatia(who was also a neoplatonist) or Aristarchus, did more to progress the human race than Plato did.
Just googled Dillahunty to see who he is, and I watched a few minutes of a YouTube video with him debating Jordan Peterson. Not pretty, as you might imagine. Peterson was saying something to the effect that everyone is religious and we just don't realize it. What I think he was trying to say is that we're a social species and naturally bond with shared values and narratives.
If that's true then it seems whoever controls the narrative runs the show, regardless of the narrative being based on fact (secular fresh air) or fiction (ancient BS).
If you can't imagine it, you can't do it. What you take for granted everyday was even more of a mockery, in its time of infancy in the minds of those who sought beyond the limits of what could be proven let alone created at that particular time with that particular society (resources, both physical and intellectual), than what you cast as the same today. And yet, here we are. And here you are. As doubtful as ever.
I have no issue with you, in fact I find you a refreshing reprieve from what I can assure you is the truer, deeper, if not restrictive (in it's own peculiar way) nature of reality itself. Though, you do seem to have a certain "denseness" about you that I can easily see others would paint as less than preferable in their own minds. Downright undesirable to those perhaps a bit more strict with expectation and a bit less lenient with the idea of letting one be oneself, regardless of, not consequence necessarily, but loss of greater potential.
Though as it stands, at least from my limited online observation, you seem to be doing well, your knowledge (or lack thereof) perfectly adequate and suited for your life, standards, and means. As such, I have no need to intervene.
Though ask yourself, are you, in your limited experience as a, as you believe, wholly animalistic multi-cellular being, created solely by a haphazard environment, of no great purpose whatsoever, entirely certain the sum of your knowledge from said limited experience is completely infallible, resolute, and above all, complete? Surely not. :smile:
I don't need to feel I am correct, anymore than you do. I certainly seek to be as correct as I can be. We can all err, including you. Such observations are obvious, yes?
Maybe, but I thought Peterson was just taking up Nietzsche here. “I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar”? (Twilight of the Idols)
That's an old debate but a good one. I think Peterson has been running scared from Dillahunty ever since. But I am sure Peterson would not agree with that.
Quoting praxis
This is certainly true on any call-in show style format. Most of the offerings on Jimmy Snow's 'The line' are a bit like this but it's also true of groups like 'answers in genesis' or those youtube offerings put out by Kent or Eric Hovind or Ken Ham etc.
I will give a little more credit to 'The Line' however as they are going to try a new format call the 'nboss' in which the caller gets more time and more ability to present and 'steelman' their argument before the 'nboss' (who might be m dillahunty, j snow, shannon q, f valkai, d warnock etc) replies to the claims made by the caller. This sounds a bit fairer to me than the situation where the presenter can simply 'mute' or 'cut off' a caller. Although I accept that just like 'banning,' here on TPF, these features are necessary, depending on the agenda/mental state of an individual calling in.
You lost me at “call-in show.”
He makes some extremely unfounded comments about psychedelic experiences. This was where i started to lose it with his sophistry because it's unhelpful dishonesty when you misrepresent scientific findings. I don't think Dillahunty had to do much to make JPB look awful here.
He claimed it was evidence that supports his view. :lol:
For me an issue with philosophy is the demarcation between ideas which may be helpful to us personally and that which constitutes a more specialized knowledge of the philosophy - its history and development.
Matt Dillahunty and co are polemicists, with a smattering of philosophical knowledge. By limiting their world largely to empiricism, they simply opt to bypass most philosophical enquiry. Dillahunty had to look up who Nietzsche was one night recently when I was watching. This is a man with a limited repertoire (like many of us) and good luck to him. In the world of the YouTube skeptic that narrow focus or perspective might be apropos, but I don't think we can suggest that a philosophy site revere such a response when there is an entire universe of philosophical ideas worth exploring.
Agreed - if not clear, JPB made the comments that get my back up.
Liberal Jewish theism. I guess.
Maybe a Geist got into the server where TPF lives and started this rancorous (but quite interesting) exchange; or maybe the Zeitgeist itself is rancorous exchange. Perhaps it was just a game of UPROAR.
I have not listened to a minute of Matt Dillahunty, and don't plan to. I haven't read Plato cover to cover, and don't plan to (I'm too old to spare the time) -- but I have at least read some Plato and read about him. Brother Universeness, fellow socialist, fellow humanist! No one will think less of you if you allow that somebody who has been read for 2500 years might conceivably be more a more important than Matt Dillahunty.
What worries me is that whenever I see the owner and moderators piling on, it leads one to think that a hanging might be in the offing.
He has a religious bent that I don't pay attention to. It's not interesting and it's outside his area of expertise.
He can also cry (as in literally tears pouring down his face) about things not that important, which some may see as passion, but I see it as a bit unhinged. That along with some crazy clown looking suits, where half the jacket is black and the other red, some may see as trying to create a signature look, but I see it as a bit unhinged.
He works a strong social media presence, and that might be why I know about him, but I think it negatively impacts his credibility. Anyone who bumps into me too often must be unhinged, a bit.
Unhinged is a bit far, but as someone who has a closet full of three-pieces and pride myself on my style, he's a total clown in this regard. Looks utterly ridiculous and pretentious - and for someone like me, that's saying something!
He cries in a way I have cried, and I think I recognize it as sincere but misguided, or delusional. It is sentimentality—which lines up with his favourite author of fiction, Dostoevsky, a melodramatic sentimentalist bore.
Sentimentality, according to Nabokov (when criticizing Dostoevsky), is…
When Peterson cries, I believe he is crying for a type of character, like Raskolnikov or similar incels, rather than for real people. This makes him not a conservative, the way I see it.
If you 'listen between the lines', he makes this point himself. Even with reference to Ras.
I suspect he is moved to tears in recognition of his own sensitivity; in other words, Peterson's tears are for himself.
As to sentimentality, I see that differently. I see it as a close cousin of regret. Regret is wanting to go back in the past in order to change what went wrong. Those who suffer great regret are constantly beating themselves up, unable to move on an accept their own apology.
Sentimentality is looking at that old picture of your then young parents and your long since gone dog in your lap and wanting to reach back into the past and be there again when things were better and more pure. Those who suffer great sentimentality leave a foot planted in the past and can't move on to the future. They are burdened with something left behind they want to go back and get.
With either, the present doesn't develop like it should. With those prone to regret, they fail to act for fear of error. With those prone to sentimentality, they cling to every moment, trying to wrench every last drop from it as they know it will be fleeting and never recovered.
This is some deep shit. I'm fucking nailing this shit.
This is the song you have to listen to to free yourself of sentimentality:
You’ve gone deep there, but I don’t think you’ve nailed it. That’s not sentimentality. That’s the recognition of lost time. Moments gone forever, that kind of thing. Just thinking about any time in my past can make me emotional, no matter what was happening at the time. I think that’s deeper than sentimentality.
I'm not convinced this is a negative. I get sentimental about plenty of stuff, but it's an appreciation and momentary lapse of 'being in the moment' as it were. Then, I retrain my mind to the present and move on - feeling a little more full, emotionally.
I would say overly-sentimental people, in my experience are ineffectual. They aren't trained on the present moment. I guess that can be negative, but too much of anything is a poison, right?
But for that reason, i don't really see sentimental people harming others. Maybe they are harming people without computation, rather than compunction so it's really hard to see the 'causality' (let's not.. lol). That would make sense to me.
I think it’s about superficiality. The Nabokov quote that I posted above is preceded with this:
And Hitler loved animals. It’s a familiar critique, as you note. I think it still stands up. Sentimentality is not to be trusted. It can be manipulative, and it’s facile pretty much by definition.
Sensitivity isn’t shallow, thoughtless, and facile. The sentimental person sees a cute cat and stares at it, walks towards it, makes stupid noises (“awww”, and similar contemptible sounds), and attempts to pick it up, whereas the sensitive person cares about how the cat feels, and knows that all of that stuff will only make the cat feel uncomfortable.
I realize I’m trying to define by example rather than pin it down, but I believe that’s the best approach here.
Can't speak for Jamal ( or Nabokov who I revere as a genius) but I can see how being sensitive is empathy and recognition of complexities and how these impact others. While sentimentality is a type of superficial romanticism which plays out as self-regarding and indulgent emotionality.
No worries
Quoting AmadeusD
Agreed.
Quoting Tom Storm
Well I certainly do think that In general terms, if philosophy and philosophers ever try to impose barriers based on some elitist style suggestion that 'only the fully qualified may pass this point,' then it and they will never speak to or for the masses and will remain a series of echoes that are just mainly employed by the nefarious as a tool they can manipulate to further abuse those masses. Elitist philosophers are as bad as evanhellical theists imho.
Quoting Tom Storm
If you can identify that episode Tom, I would be very interested in viewing that section. I think Dillahunty would know who Nietzsche was as well as he knows his current home address, but I am willing to look at what you are referring to.
I agree. The sentimentalists, while thinking they care, actually don’t care about real people, and weep for their own images (e.g., stereotypes or archetypes) of those people; the sensitive person, on the other hand, cares enough to empathize with the real person (or cat).
Hmm. I'm often an elitist. If I am going to have brain surgery, say, I want the best. Ditto dental surgery. I think there's a difference between the ideas an average person is able to follow and use and what ideas the human race is capable of articulating in the fullness of our creative and intellectual powers. Since this site isn't merely about pragmatic fundie busting, I would think we are hoping (sometimes at least) to identify some of the more advanced thinking in the philosophical tradition. Such ideas may be difficult to grasp, but they need not be elitist in the posturing and disengaged sense of the term.
I'm quite happy to recognize that some philosophy is beyond me as I simply lack the necessary background and disposition to pursue it. That's on me. But I do often enjoy ideas which are unfamiliar and counterintuitive and different to my own.
Quoting universeness
If I can remember.
You nailed it. :rofl:
In 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson, Rule #12 is “Pet A Cat When You Encounter One On The Street.”
:lol: You rang M'Lord? The story/words of gods have been read for a lot longer than the words of Plato. I don't see why the duration of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself. My brother socialist and secular humanist. I would far prefer to base my hopes for the future direction of our species on the thoughts and musings of Matt Dillahunty, if the only other option is Plato. I think even the thoughts and musings of the socialist, secular, humanist BC would be better for the future of our species than Plato.
Quoting BC
Yeah, but just who gets hanged in the long term, can often surprise and when that happens, more human burdens are often lifted, at last!
Yep for sure, appreciate you read that out of my comment and proceeded in a way salutary to my need LOL.
Quoting Jamal
Ah Ok, fair enough. I don't understand it to be much of a distinction though. I very, very rarely see these two things apart from one another in people and when I do, I tend to get the impression the person is not actually in contact with the present moment - so, rather than seeing it as less shallow, I see it as more deep haha but to a fault.
Quoting Jamal
It sounds as if we're talking about these as necessarily different types of people. Is that the case? I don't find it so.
Quoting universeness
Isnt..this......the case? LOL
Quoting Tom Storm
Ditto, as to Universenesses request... Very surprising, and even laughable, if true.
Quoting Tom Storm
:ok:
I think you're misconceiving the point.
It's the endurance, not the duration, that matters. Plato has stood the test of time. It is not an appeal to tradition, but an appeal to the gauntlet of philosophical history. I, at some point, felt the way you did. Then i read some Plato. And it was patently, obviously, laughably clear i was being 'edgy'.
For me, this is crucial Tom. In the scenarios you offered, the brain and dental surgeon are the elites, you are the one in need. You need their care and skill and you have the right to hope, that to them, you are worth their attention and their best efforts. That is what the masses should be able to rely upon from the best that philosophy and philosophers can muster. It even appears in science, when Einstein said that it was his burden to be able to explain his theories to a child. I agree, it is his burden.
I didn't mean to say that D had never heard of Nietzsche. A caller rang and asked what D thought of N's ideas. D shrugged and looked him up and said something like, 'He's not been on my radar.' My point was simply that I doubt D would be able to usefully explore any the issues that people like Peterson raise around N's death of god and implications for atheism. Does this make D a dim wit? No. It's just that philosophy is not really his area of expertise, as I am sure he'd be the first to admit.
Apparently, his writing is absolutely F'ing atrocious - so i took secondary sources and find his general ideas and thrust very, very interesting. I wonder if there's a EMT of Hegel... But, no for the reason above LOL..
"This website does not contain any works by Hegel because the preparer of the text-versions does not know Hegel's work well enough to tackle such a task, and is now much too old (born 1930) to remedy that ignorance. A secondary consideration: the famous difficulty of grasping Hegel's thought seems to be intrinsic to the thought itself, which means that it is not the kind of difficulty that this website aims to be helpful with."
Are incels still a thing? Seems so 2020.
Does it help if I reword to:
"I don't see why the endurance of bad ideas should ever be a reason to keep using them as a bad foundation on which to base and build a human culture, regardless of the global compass direction (in this case Western) that influence seems to have embedded itself."
The result is the same imo.
Quoting AmadeusD
I have already stated that I know a fair amount about the writings of Plato via proxy encounters. My opinions have not changed from each new indirect encounter with his writings.
I think the difference is that the first version is true; this one isnt :)
Quoting universeness
As did I, at the time i dismissed them ;)
Sure. But the higher level expertise of philosophy - central ideas, critical texts, (the meat, if you like) are often what this site examines, and not only an application of parts of those ideas at a school or an aged care facility.
Quoting universeness
:up: Yep but before we can explain complex ideas to a small child, it's likely we need to understand them in their fullness as an adult. The process of explanation is akin to a translation.
For me, that would indicate that he merely needs a refresh. My quals and career was in Computing science but it's been a while since I taught the details of say, computer network topologies and networked operating systems. If someone asked me about any significant detail, then I might have to say, 'can I get back to you on that one.' Matt has often complained that every caller seems to expect him to be an absolute expert on everything they ask him about, and if he falls short of their expectations in any way, then they often pounce and spit, with some irrational BS like 'see Matt does not know what he is talking about.'
I think they are both equally true.
Quoting Jamal
But my complaint was not about learned philosophers debating and fine tuning ideas with other learned philosophers or even their discussions with the less learned philosophisers amongst the current TPF membership (like me). I was complaining about any 'philosopher' who would ever think or feel that their main burden was anything other than the well-being and advancement of all humanity (not of course to the detriment of all other existents). Any philosophy or philosopher that does not exist for that purpose is a net negative imo.
:roll: When did I suggest that I did not take Plato's musings seriously? Evil endures, I take evil seriously but I don't value it as the main guide to a better future for all humans!
Perhaps i'm using the wrong word - well, it seems you really do not take Plato seriously, and dismiss him as 'old and out of touch'. Is that not taking it less seriously?
I have no idea where you're going with 'evil'. Total non sequitur here.
I suspect that we've been jumping around a bit. I think however that your point goes back to how one determines what's important in order to achieve this result. I suspect that some people might say Derrida's insights can help lead the way. Others might call him an obscurantist wanker. On a philosophy site we need to recognize that we may not be able to readily identify which thinker is of most use in this 'advancement of humanity' - our own biases and frames are not necessarily the only or best way forward.
I used evil as an example of that which has long endured and must be taken very seriously but yet should never be used as a foundation on which to base a human culture on.
I take Plato seriously but his musings are too full of esoteric nonsense to have ever been or continue to be used as a foundation on which to base any future human culture.
Ahh... I think this is why I see your position as the same 'edggy' position I had taken. Unfortunately for the position, Plato has already had, and continues to have, immense influence on many cultures.
Esoteric nonsense pisses me off too. I absolutely abhor new-agey thinking (having spent some years trapped in it). But if you have not read Plato in any 'complete' form (i.e a full work (any of them)) then I can't say it's all that fair for me to critique you position too much. You simply do not know what you haven't read.
And, of course, there are emerging traditions which are seeking to restore a form of Neoplatonism to the Western tradition in the manner of cognitive scientist and philosopher, John Vervaeke's work. He's a Canadian rival to Peterson in the restoration of meaning business. I'm not a follower or a Neoplatonist, but it is interesting to encounter his work.
So give me your best 'Plato' that would best express to me, why YOU think, his musings should be used in any way, shape or form as an influence on 'many human cultures.'
Euthyphro and Republic are both patently helpful in working out how to set up societies. Do we take them as wrote? No. Do we even take them generally wholesale? No. But he was essentially the first to attack these ideas, and got much of hte meat on to the table.
I would imagine that a position that leapfrogs Plato, but takes subsequent philosophy as employable, is ignorant to the fact that it is mostly 'footnotes to Plato'.
Sounds interesting Tom but I honestly think I would rather go with the musings of Roddenberry than any of the Greeks.
If our current western cultures are based on such, and our current western cultures are so close to vanishing up their own arsehole, why should we not totally abandon the bad notions they are based on?
Ahhhhhh. This is a very, very helpful note to understand your position then. It's not edgy.
But I would say I do not agree with your take on Western culture. I particularly disagree and find it to be a rather insipid and unfortunate position to take. Though, If you're also saying every other society also sucks - I can get on board there :P
Quoting universeness
As noted, they were never 'totally' taken on board, so this doesn't make tooo much sense - But in light of your view on Western culture, I can see why baby WITH bathwater isn't a risk for you.
No, I am confirming we can do sooooooo much better. Time to dump the platonic waste and recover from the fallout. The effects must be starting to wear of by now. Watch some more Matt Dillahunty or read some Carl Sagan books. I have read all of them. Some more than once. Saganism, not Platonism.
In terms of your opinion on Western Culture: Fair enough. I don't see it, but you do you Boo.
In terms of 'the better way' - I can only chuckle at replacing Plato with Dillahunty (who i can almost guarantee you, is deriving his views from a Platonic lineage (similar to the Christianity-influenced-the-West claim.. It's true)). It's like replacing Hawking with a first-year linguist.
:up:
Plato, particularly with Socrates, is about asking questions, and he shows which are the good questions to ask. It is not a doctrine, or need not be read as one, and certainly is not only one if it is. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so please stop.
You misunderstand. Plato already is the foundation, be it bad or good. I think the length of time sustained is evidence that the foundation was pretty good. As for the future, we can either repair the problems of the ancient foundation, or tear down the entire existing structure and start again from scratch. Plato suggested that the latter is inevitable. Ready to work?
Cumin is a necessity. I also add paprika. Never tried beer.
Cumin and smoked paprika were present. I honestly don't think the beer does anything, it just makes me feel more uh-MER-ican. It does add more liquid though without adding salt (via broth) and is theoretically more flavorful than adding water. Also, I came to the realization that I might actually be putting too much stuff in my chili after all. I think the sheer quantity of dried spices is affecting the texture of the stew.
I would say Beer-battered onion rings are more common in America. So if the chips are beer-battered, does that mean they're double dredged or something?
https://therecipe.website/beer-battered-chips/
This happened to me when making a curry. I had been taking the generally great advice to use “the right amount, not the white amount” with several kinds of Asian food, and it’s usually wise, because Western recipes call for absurdly tiny amounts of all the spices.
But there’s a limit. I put in masses of garam masala and fenugreek and the texture was unpleasant.
hahaha; i've never heard this. Absolute Gold.
I probably got it from Uncle Roger.
Now that I think about it, I don't know that I do either. But I think some fancier fries (chips) are coated with a batter, fried, then coated again and fried again. I think that's what I was thinking of. The recipe you linked to is a single batter.
Quoting Jamal
Haven't heard this either, but good advice. I do know with Indian curries, spices are usually toasted whole and then ground by hand, so you don't have the uniform grainy texture of mass produced dried spices, plus you need less because they're toasted and freshly ground. That said, I've never made a 1/4th decent Indian curry myself. Thai curries are much easier for gringos.
EDIT: glad to see another Uncle Roger fan.
What made it especially delicious was the company, meaning me. I am quite the conversationalist, an engaging host, and I have the most piercing eyes and adorable smile.
As the evening wore on and my guests grew drunk on the multi-colored carrots, I offered them free lodging above my kitchen, where they made their way to the rickety freezing rat infested loft. Had they been aware of what danger lurked above, they'd probably not accepted my offer.
The stew part was true. The other part, yeah, well, it's no stupider than saying Matt is more important than Plato.
:rofl:
Sounded great until the end here. Not sure what that's doing in there.
Sorry, I misspelled it. It was a basal skin cell carcinoma I picked loose from between my eyebrows. It tasted of fear, like the kind you feel when you have cancer between your eyes.
Weird direction on that one. My apologies.
I thought the basil added a hint of chaos and fun. I'll invite you next time so you won't feel slighted and feel the need to attack my seasoning choices.
I would describe the evolution of your shoutbox jokes as overwhelmingly bewildering. It's either that or I'm too tired to come up with a witty response. I'm also out of practice in shoutbox scholarship, having been preoccupied with proofreading "short stories" written by weird people who post on a philosophy forum.
As an aside, the egregious inclusion of basil (presumably dried) in a dish where it doesn't belong goes back to my childhood in which my mother would make tofu stir fry with vaguely asian ingredients and spices...and too much dried basil. It's a sense memory I'd like to forget.
I'd agree the basil is misplaced in that meal you spoke of in your trauma dump.
I feel like basil in stew is proper. I Googled basil and stew and got many hits. I'll ask Matt what he thinks.
I've been told this is one of my strongest assets. I just dump and dump, and eventually people tell me they feel bad, or that I'm a gifted writer, or whatever.
Basil is Italian (unless it's Thai). It should only be used in those cuisines, depending on which one it is. It has no place in a southern white boi stew that also includes rutabaga.
I'm realizing that I've hung around here long enough that I'm absorbing other posters writing styles; it's like we're all married. "Basil is Italian (unless it's Thai)." is very @BC. My initial reply in this post is very @Hanover. The crisp exactitude of my language is very @Jamal. Now I feel weird. I'll edit and make this emoji :lol: to give it some @Baden.
The definition of sentimentality:
"dealing with feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia, typically in an exaggerated and self-indulgent way."
The nostalgia and exaggerated sadness is what I honed in on, the depths of which are limited only by what was lost in yesterday.
It's sentimental comments like that that I'd use as examples of what I mean by sentimental, but maybe it's my own exaggerated idiosyncratic brand of it.
Well, Nabokov didn't like Don Quixote either. Dostoevsky inspired Freud thanks to familiar emotions, compassion, and the psychology of the characters. As well as Cervantes inspired other writers thanks to the role of Quixote. I accept that people are not forced to love Don Quixote or Crime and Punishment, but I get mad when cliché authors just criticize them to get attention.
Boo to you too with some added woo woo woo sounds for added effect.
I see your little chuckle and I raise you, with a loud three second bout of hardy derisive laughter.
Like most human beings with the ability to think rationally, Dillahunty derives his views from all encounters, experiences and learnings, that living his life has caused. Like the fictitious Yahweh, chosen from a Pantheon of fictitious gods, Plato did not write his laws or writings in the hearts of all humans. He was elevated mostly be members of early nefarious elites. Most or all of the truly humanist, socialist, secular writings of those unknown thousands were most likely destroyed. As I said before, Plato was a bit player, a name that floated to the top of many thousands of such musers. His writings were amongst those that survived, probably due to his favoured mysticism at a time when many more people believed in the existence and power of the supernatural and like many here on TPF still do, they cowered in fear in their places of rest at night, when they thought the gods were watching them and were deciding their fate, during and after their life and death. :rofl: Many here still just can't get past this BS miasma and they remain incapable of joining all effort to become as incredible as a fully united human species could achieve. A new non-destructive set of common causes that will result in us becoming what we are compelled to become, A space faring species. But small minded people want to stick with ancient, laughable bullshit ideas like Plato's forms and abuses of the notion of logos. Such ideas were around way way before Plato, most of them bad ideas or poorly presented notions, with too much BS esoteric additional content. I have tried to explain that to you but you seem to prefer your cultural foundation to be figureheaded by a peddler of woo woo.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Here we go again! No shit Sherlock!
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover Now there's a good idea!
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
So even Plato himself tried to tell you muppets that his ideas were shit! I started working against his woo woo when I was still a child, when will you start?
Quoting Jamal
Stupidity is better defined (like insanity), as repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.
Y'now, like continuing to use woo woo peddlers like Plato to guide the cultural, sociopolitical, and/or even moral lives of a society of humans. It's insanity and rather stupid to keep making that mistake. But you seem to be one of those who are fated to and incapable of any kind of fresh original thinking, and you have 'actually read Plato's writings directly.' :roll: :death: :flower:
Quoting Jamal
As I have typed before, so I am forced to type again.
'Right back at you pal!'
I will let you and the rest of your 'I have actually directly read Plato,' blind leading the blind philosophers, go back to what you seem to enjoy most, the deepest and most intensely felt exchanges on the most important philosophical issue in your worldviews. What you all eat!!!! :rofl:
My apologies to @ucarr, I was enjoying your most recent thread and was looking forward to my next response. Keep doing what you do so well sir!
Plato has and will be known for millennia, unless you, which I wouldn't be surprised in the least, start to doubt his existence as well.
What will you be known for? Just curious. I see you like your boy, and I'm sure he's a brilliant - perhaps even decent - man, though the latter quality I would question, but is it not simply the fact you can see and (though I hope you would not) touch him and actually question him knowing he and his message are both real while neither of us could do the same of Plato? You remind me of a child in faith, he always needs to see what happens, while never actually caring or understanding why, simply for the fact he can point to, grasp, and share with others. There's nothing wrong with this, though some mature beyond this juvenile state of intellect.
What I find most annoying is you not realizing theism was simply the flavor of the day (as it should be now, and will be if and when I become elect- but that's another matter). No different then young boys having a liking for Superman or any of the Avengers trio, no different than young girls fancying Barbie or having an affinity for Taylor Swift. These things, be they of substance or not, were and are pivotal in the development of one's identity, potential, and yes philosophical ideas and notions. Of course one could cast each in a negative light, focusing on the flaws or lack of resoluteness as all things that inspire minds and endeavors intrinsically have. The problem is when you focus on, not even a flaw, but an unknown, and fail to see the forest for the trees. Which is precisely what I believe you're misconception is.
Quite frankly, it (a greater non-human quality, or divinity) was not simply a trend. But a law. Often punishable by death. Can you not factor that in combined with the idea you need to speak the language of those you're trying to communicate with? :chin:
I don't see how you can throw the baby out with the bathwater as you seem to do. That said, I have enjoyed our interactions, few and fleeting as they may have been.
May the Jamal's and various demi-mods have mercy.
Ah warned ye tae shut yer geggie.
Yer bum's oot the windae.
Because you are the chief executive of the shoutbox, Hanover. I can't (and shouldn't) assume responsibility because I am just an employee.
The Board of Directors of the shoutbox is constituted by you, my uncle Jamal and my guy Baden.
Quoting unenlightened
I mean wow guys, you're not wrong, but it just makes me feel uncomfortable in all my humility to hear it said out loud.
This must be what it feels like to be Matt.
And there I go again, shit stirring. It's my one flaw i have just to make me relatable. That's how great I am.
That's highly illogical captain. Thousands of other writings whose writers were far more significant then Plato were destroyed, thus allowing Plato, a bit player, to rise to the top.
Quoting universeness
You really don't read what I say when we engage, do you? I am always very critical of Platonism.
If your attitude and lack of respect is indicative of the atheistic world you want to see become a reality, I want nothing to do with it.
It seems that you do not understand much of anything, with this post.
And that's Ok.
Err…You’re just not fully aware of Plato’s influence, methinks. I think reading the Republic is very worthwhile, especially for anyone interested in philosophy. Still relevant and interesting even today. In fact, you’ve inspired me to dig up a copy and start anew, as it’s been a while!
(Not only the republic, of course.)
Personal attack veiled as a rhetorical question followed by disingenuous dissimulation. Boooo :down:
I can assure you that was not the intent, simply an attempt to invoke a blunt realistic comparison to gain some common ground between the individual and the seemingly vastly out of reach message and sentiments of the opponents to his own.
It was not disingenuous. I happen to feel the comparisons and anecdotes I brought up were quite relevant and could not be further from dissimulation. If I am incorrect, that is to say what I thought was a realistic bridge of comparison is in fact an allegorical detour of little relevance and poor if not ill composition or will that is a separate matter.
The individual in question seems to have an innate ability, one I am almost personally envious of, to rub the owner of the site and his cohorts the wrong way with little effort. Which leads me to believe there is more going on than a simple exchange of words and static sentiment or belief, a deeper relationship which the likes of you and me are simply not privy to. I simply wish for him to continue being a member of this community by his own volition and to avoid poking the proverbial bear, as he seems to have no capitulation in doing.
99% sure he's referring to Universeness.
I don't think so. It can be, not unreasonably, ascertained that the rhetoric question of "What will you be remembered for?" is a near-virtual equivalent to the statement "You will not be remembered for anything", at least in the relative comparison to the likes of one, Plato.
If I knew for a fact his life would end soon, as well as the idea he did nothing of relevance that will outlast his own life or even a few generations (which is a reasonable claim as this is the fate of most persons) and issued such a rhetoric, perhaps he would be correct.
I simply am confident in the idea that, as things currently stand, Plato, is and will likely always be a common household name, at least for those philosophically inclined, and even make the daring suggestion that the philosopher he claims to be "superior" or "better" than Plato would not.
Just opinion. However distinct in my conviction that if wagered on as fact or not I would not hesitate on betting on and would soon find myself entitled to whatever pot or bounty was pledged.
It seems to me he is answering that question, in jest, for Universeness.
Sometimes all it takes is that 1% :flower:
I post from a phone sometimes. It’s horrible, but—in my experience—no more horrible than posting anything on a phone. Relative to other sites and apps, the mobile experience for TPF seems pretty not bad to me.
What’s the problem in particular?
I post from my phone in most cases, and I never have a problem in particular. With the only exception of not being able to use cursive.
Quoting baker
NO, por favor, don't do that.
No, you're right, not "necessarily". There may be times when the sensitive response and the sentimental response coincide, and a person can be sentimental in one part of life but sensitive in another. But I also suspect there are people who can be generally described as sensitive, and not sentimental (and vice versa). The classic examples of sentimental yet insensitive people, probably a cliché now, are dictators like Stalin and Hitler, who could be personally charming, were moved by poetry and music, loved animals and children, etc. Although it's a cliché, I do believe it's a thing.
Maybe this is because sentimentalism, like dictators, is vain or selfish. What's important to the sentimental person is their own feeling. Take the example of the "animal lover" again: they want to cuddle the cat for their own gratification, to pick it up and hold it like a baby, belly up, not caring that cats almost always hate being held in such a helpless position (a sensitive person can correct this behaviour when they're told (often by the cat) that it's bad, but some people don't).
We do hold a secret ceremony, but it takes place behind closed doors at an undisclosed location, and the participants are sworn to secrecy, especially regarding the arcane and alarming details of the ceremony itself.
I question, if not chuckle at, the idea this site, much as I enjoy it, has the need for additional resources in the moderation department. As if there was some influx or overwhelming number of posts an hour suddenly or something that could not be managed in betwixt the preparation and consumption of the various Hanoverian stews, Jamalian rabbit, and Badenesque chicken and cheese pretzels that apparently sustain, nourish, and keep the current moderation team aloft. That said, good for him.
Quoting Jamal
I can usually be a very good detective, but it is not something to brag about, honestly.
One advice, Uncle Jamal: be cautious about that 'secret' ceremony. There could be an agent working for me. Muhahahaha! :cool:
@Hanover is your mole, I suppose.
That name definitely rings a bell to me!
I'm pretty much the chatty Cathy behind the scenes actually. I've got all sorts of drama swirling around in PMs right now. You would never believe what someone said to someone else and then the other person said this and then that. It's just cruzazy.
On the darker side, I even have a parallel dark TPF site I run in the background where all those that have been damned to bannation continue to operate. It's a sewage pit of discourse, with the worst of the worst spewing forth venom, making the Israel, Ukraine, and Trump threads look like a toddler's playground.
You might remember Maia from the former website. She presented as a very attractive young blonde who claimed genetic blindness and her every post dealt with how some suitor wanted to have sex with her, so she needed advice from the 20 or so of us well adjusted men on how to deal with her troubling hotness coupled with her inability to see what was coming. She got run off for misrepresentation. Anywho, she's the Jamal of that site. I should have interviewed others for that role, but she was such the damsel in distress and I am such the knight in shining armor.
You would never last there.
Please, at least post a photo of Count Tim in the silly hat.
What does that mean? Are you saying I am against Latin?
I think you are not used to the shoutbox rhetoric yet.
I erased the part where your name appeared. I think you don't like me nor shoutbox nature. But it is fine, we are not going to start a drama because of this. We are not toddlers.
Someone opposed to Latin might be a Latinphobe, but I'd be careful not to refer to them as Latinaphobes because that might suggest they don't like women from Latin America. Maybe anti-Latinite is better.
Quoting Hanover
That is going into your DMs as another drama.
Fair enough, and thanks for the response. But i just don't see the delineation as starkly, lets say, apparent.
For instance, my wife has recently found her brothers. It makes me sentimental for my own, and how close we used to be (one of mine, I no longer speak with and he did not attend my wedding nor mine his (though, in his case he didn't invite me)).
But this sentimentality around my own brothers and a previous 'life we lived', to put it sentimentally (lol), directly influenced my ability to empathize and understand my wife's overwhelming emotional response to her first message from her brother 27 years into her life. Are they different? Sure. But they can be directly connected as i see it. But hten, we're talking about emotions and I don't think its sensible to try to sort of exact demarcations so perhaps this is a natural thing for me to think
Hmm. My own take is that the word 'sentimentality' here is probably being used somewhat arbitrarily. You could also talk about your 'connection' to your brothers or your 'bond'. I wonder if sentimentality would trivialize such a connection to kin (from my perspective, anyway), but in the end it is just a word being used in a particular way. :wink:
I think it does - and i think that is the difference, to my mind. The trivial sentimentality is transmuted into a significant emotionally solidarity due to 'relating to it' or whatever oyu want to call that process, between the two.
There are plants that are very sensitive to touch; touch-me-not, for instance, will unravel their seed pods at the slightest touch. Some sensitive plants collapse when touched. We would not call them sentimental plants, would we? No. Weeping willows, however, are nothing but cheap sentiment.
I heard a lap dancer say the same thing about certain men.
I see sensitivity to mean only that your senses are heightened so that your reactions tend to come off as exaggerated to someone not as sensitive. If you are sensitive to light, for instance, you shield your eyes.
If you are sensitive to criticism, you attack at the slightest provocation. If sensitive to physical pain, you scream, but at emotional pain, you cry, maybe even become depressed.
I also think some are sensitive, but their responses controlled. Those people are generally referred to as observant as opposed to sensitive, but they are linked. The observant are able to react in a tempered and logical way to what their sensitivity perceived as opposed to emotionally reacting.
I think of myself as sentimental and observant, but I think many would think of me as insensitive. I also think some are insensitive and not observant either (which is what many reserve the term insensitive to mean), meaning they piss people off constantly but have no idea they're doing it or why it's happening.
If you're observant and appearing insensitive, you might ask why you're doing that, considering it means you are self-ware of your insensitivity. That likely means you think you're right enough to say what you think needs being said even though it pisses people off. That likely has to do with another trait, I'd generally call arrogance or righteousness, where you think your rightness should prevail regardless of others feelings because rightness is of the highest order. If you think your rightness is rooted in your special ability to know it, that is arrogance. If you think your rightness is rooted in your knowledge of some higher truth, that is righteousness.
If you check your righteousness with humility, then that perhaps is wisdom. If you exaggerate your righteousness with direct references to your god-like ability and then exaggerate your failings with self-deprecation, then the juxtaposition of extremes creates an absurdity and then it becomes schtick, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
This conversation feels like Aristotle's Rhetoric, where he just keeps breaking down terms and all the distinctions seem right, but it's hard to keep them straight in your head.
I tried once from a tablet, never again. I am sticking to a keyboard.
Lunch: plátano maduro con frijoles, huevo y carne de res.
Impressively perfect Spanish. Since I know you live in a Hispanic country, I guess you speak it fluently. I guess this because you wrote plátano instead of banana and 'res' instead of just carne.
On the other hand, when I went to school, one of my classmates was from Honduras. I usually went to his house to eat, and I remember he used to put plátanos in the food: rice, beans, meat, etc. I was not confident enough to taste them all, but the flavor of the plátano with rice or meat is actually pretty good, and I ended up missing the flavor because we hardly use plátanos in our meals but only in merienda and breakfast.
Plátano or plantains are different things from bananas, no one eats plantains raw.
Here some people like them boiled or in soups and stews. They are also good when sliced and fried when still green the same way we do with bananas, or fried when ripe.
My favorite way of eating them is when they are almost to the point of rotting on the outside and then roasting them. They are slightly alcoholic by them.
Here they are not the same, a banana is a banana and a plantain is a plantain.
They are both part of the same family but have distinct textures and tastes, they even look different when you get to know what to look for.
We have several other varieties here as well. One of my favorites is a very short but thick variety that is know as a moroca, I think they are the same as the Matoke variety.
I know. That's what I tried to explain. When someone uses Spanish, they translate plátanos as bananas. They say banana to refer to that yellow fruit which looks like a phone. But they are not the same, obviously. Plátanos are more expensive, as @Jamal noticed at Mercadona.
Quoting Sir2u
Yeah, but not all folks are aware of this distinction! :lol:
Because the Canarian folks say banana instead of plátano. :sweat:
I am aware they are two different things, but under the impression the words i used are interchangeable for banana.
:lol:
Everyone knows that.
While a fried banana might be a heretofore previously unknown masterpiece, it currently is not a thing.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/James_Kpatrick/status/320150923336892416[/tweet]
It'd be funnier if they were both the same author. But your point is not lost. Not entirely, at least.
Quoting Hanover
What about Banana Foster -- delicious and simple desert cooked in a frying pan, :
How simple? Apparently you slice a banana in half, put it in a cold cast iron pan, and add honey.
The instructions say, "add honey and a sprinkle of cinnamon; bake 10-15 minutes." Garnish with something -- whipped cream, ice cream, a sprinkle of powdered sugar... I've had Banana Foster -- it was very good.
You could heat lots of lard and deep-fat fry bananas to meet the greasy expectations of people living in the fried fish belt. Serve with Pepsi Cola.
Quoting Hanover
The observant are sensitive, with responses controlled, making them appear insensitive.
Quoting Hanover
Wait, they actually are insensitive. How people judge you is how you are. You are not how you judge yourself. So the insensitive likes to think of oneself as controlled sensitive, but is really insensitive.
Quoting Hanover
Now, in the same way that the insensitive wrongly thinks of oneself as sensitive but controlled, the wrongness is thought of as rightness, and through rationalization the rightness which is really wrongness becomes righteousness.
Quoting Hanover
Now I'm lost. Humility would undermine the whole structure, leaving one as sentimental. But now instead of controlling sensitiveness one would be controlling righteousness in the attempt to appear sensitive, undermining the control over one's sensitiveness which makes one appear insensitive. The observant is totally confused. Do we need to start over?
Wait, what? How is this the case?
We must also expect a fried banana is being served at a fair somewhere right now with my favorite, fried gristle, dusted with powdered sugar and doused with ketchup.
You seem like a man who knows his way around a banana. You should join in that discussion.
I worry I'm slipping. It took me way too long to make that sort of banana joke. The old Hanover would have had the crowd roaring over exploding bananas by now. Oh well, at least I eventually got there.
I wouldn't get too mired in MU's personal language.
Sometimes you just gotta dip out.
This is both synthetically true and performatively true. That is, if I say you're amazing, I am correct because I am never wrong about what is (omniscience is a trait I share with my bru Yahweh) and, in addition, me saying it makes it so. I can actually decree amazingness.
This creates the synthetic omniscience performative problem. Is something as it is because it empiricaly is, or is it as it is because i see it that way and I'm omniscient and can't be wrong, or is it as it is because i decreed it that way, speaking things into existence like a creator?
I should be Kant. Start a new vocabulary and then try to figure out what I just said.
I’ve always thought bananas foster was flambéd with rum?
I've never thought bananas foster was flambéd with rum, but it sounds like a great idea!
Hanover said something about being self-aware of one's own insensitivity, That implies that what was described as being sensitive, but controlled sensitivity, is not really being sensitive at all, but actually being insensitive. It might be time to look at some psychology texts and find out about defense mechanisms and control structures.
Further, maybe it's the case that how you look at yourself is just subjective opinion, and how others view you comprises objective knowledge. Otherwise, you end up as righteous as God, like Hannie demonstrates. If others view you as insensitive, then you are insensitive, despite your own rationalization that you are really sensitive but controlled.
Quoting Hanover
A plantain is a bad weed in the flower garden, difficult to pull. If there's anyone here who can't tell the difference between a plantain and a banana, it's time to come to your senses.
It is a good thing to have containment threads, but if you think about it...
I think TPF is all about entertainment, not philosophy. That's why Shoutbox is #1, and Short stories is #2. Don't ask me why Site Guidelines is #3, because I would say that's a joke.
Do you agree that folks don't have a clue about distinguishing a banana from a plátano? Why do you think this actually happens? Is it a matter of Linguistics (how the mind works through the vocabulary and language when someone perceives the quoted fruit) or metaphysics? (Why does a plátano exist? Which came first? The banana or plátano?
I'd say "platano' has the same root as Plato, therefore it's more philosophically significant.
Whether or not you’re joking, I’ll point out the obvious anyway: you’re including pinned discussions, which are not relevant to the points you’re trying to make.
I agree mate!!!!
And Granadilla has the same root as Dillahunty, etc.
So fruits, apart from their vitamins, contain a juicy content of knowledge and understanding.
No idea what you're talking about but thanks! :grin:
Quoting Jamal
You see, I had planned ahead for this reply. I took a screenshot of the top ten threads on this forum besides the pinned threads, where at the time 6 of them were not philosophy related. I uploaded them on imgur and hoped I would be able to retrieve it from my history, would this reply come. Unfortunately, due to the way Brave browser works, the link has been lost, and now I can't appear super witty.
The problem is from the equivocation of terms. "Sensitive" can mean having heightened senses or it can mean easily insulted, or it can mean someone who is especially compassionate. Insensitive can mean having reduced senses, but it also can mean rude and offensive and especially not compassionate.
With the way these terms have been used in various ways it therefore does make sense to say that I am sensitive (able to perceive) to my insensitivity (offensiveness). The contradiction only arises in that sentence if I use "insensitivity" as a negation of "able to perceive,' but I haven't. That is, I cannot be sensitive to the light I am insensitive too, but that's not what I said.
In fact, I clarified in my post that some used sensitive to simply mean observant, which references a self-awareness. So, if I am self aware of my offensiveness, that just means I'm choosing to be offensive, which does best explain me when I am offensive. That is, I'm not constantly wondering why I've pissed someone off, like I thought I was just being honest but I didn't realize I said the wrong thing.
I then explained what might motivate someone to say something they know might not be well received, and I said it had to do with believing being correct was more important than being nice. Why someone might hold rightness in high regard likely has something to do with assuming a position of righteousness, which I am self-aware enough to realize I do that, which is why I mock it, realizing it is ridiculous but I do it anyway. That is, I am self-aware of it.
Why do I do that which I am self aware of and only try to temper it by joking about it instead of just not doing it? That's what angels sent from heaven to help the less fortunate are charged to do.
This issue was addressed actually some time ago by moving the Shoutbox from the front page so that it couldn't be seen without looking for it. The intention was a good one in thinking that it would push people to the substantive philosophy pages, but instead it resulted in just less activity overall and seemed to take away from the community feel that had been created.
I think the Shoutbox does actually contain more philosophy than it's given credit for and I do think it sparks substantive threads. The nonsense throughout creates a more open conversation as well.
This is just to say that you're not the first to wonder about the focus, but I can say that anytime a substantive thread is created, there are a good number of responses, meaning that people go to the lounge to hang out, but it does not cause the other threads to suffer.
I said it is a good thing to have containment threads because people go there exactly to discuss those topics instead of filling the philosophical discussion with politics. It is just funny that it shows that some people come here not for the philosophy but for politics, but here out of all places to talk politics because they simply like TPF users more.
Like cyberbullying, if you don't like it, turn off the computer or ignore it. But sometimes it is hard not to peek at those Ukraine threads...
https://fortune.com/well/article/quitters-day-new-years-resolutions-how-to-restart/
We eat them fried, but only when they are green.
Can you tell the difference? The trees are even less easy to see the difference.
It is a shame that I am busy right now or I would take you for a walk in the garden and show you that there is no difference. The ridges are usually more defined on the plantains and rounder on the bananas and the texture is rougher as well.
Quoting Hanover
The world will go to shit the day the internet fails. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I've been knocking at your door for like an hour. Are you going to let me in so we can stroll your garden and look at your trees?
If you are knocking on my door, then you should be able to see the porch with the seats on it. It is 12 by 32 feet and you are standing on it. Take a seat and I will bring you a beer in a few minutes.
Nice distraction by the way.
After reading this, I can say I'm confused by it. That's certainly true.
Everything being permitted would seem to encapsulate or otherwise constitute the definition of freedom, therefore restriction seems to be technically not permitted. :chin:
Explain thyself oh strange one who seems to have surfaced from out of some non-descript nether region previously uncharted on TPF!
Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov
IP060903’s version seems to be from the video game Assassin’s Creed.
Quoting Outlander
They have returned to the nether depths, never to resurface.
Or sockpuppet.
Internalism and the Collapse of the Gettier Problem
[sup]— Timothy McGrew, Lydia McGrew · Journal of Philosophical Research · 1998[/sup]
Surely a proper eulogy is in order.
Buuuuut, where can I read the article?
Edit: nvm, got the pdf through my library :-P
Edit 2: I did not know that Russell came up with a sort-Gettier problem himself, but I would wager he was not the first but one of many.
And yet you have not said no. :chin:
Microplastics
So maybe the answer is neither; undefined, or a dialetheia, if you will.
Maybe the squirrels will find them a couple miles down the road… :chin:
I ate the burnt popcorn, actually.
They didn't deserve to be put on the rubbish, honestly.
If they were burnt down it is because of my fault in calculating the minutes.
Note that I consider the popcorn as a material-conscious thing.
Come to think of it, that's the bulk of TPF, people pretending that fiction is the truth, and many people playing along with the pretense in a self-gratifying self-deception.
Unless you read fiction as literal would you say there is no truth in fiction.
I think there are many lessons to be learned from fiction, and in that way there is truth in fiction.
But I think no one is capable of reading fiction as literal. while knowing that it is fiction. "Literal" to me implies that there are real things which the words refer to, grounding the meaning in a sensible reality. If one knows it's fiction, then the person knows that the images created are a creation of one's own mind at the suggestion of the author.
This is why the new type of fiction which has come out, which uses real people, and sometimes referring to real situations, gets so confusing. It crosses the boundary, and the authors are sometimes very clever at disguising the boundary, leaving the reader perplexed as to how much is fiction and how much is truth.
Like that old tie if you hang on to it long enough, it'll come back in fashion.
My position is that is exactly what old mythology is (the Bible, for example), the writers never having thought it to be an objective statement of the facts, but a mix of fact and fiction to advance a narrative. Maybe it's different than today where there might be an intent to deceive, but I'd submit the mixing of the two is as old as grandpa's tie.
Agreed, and this is how we "use" narrative for various purposes, through emphasis, exaggeration, and outright lies. A narrative can never be "true" in the sense required by some epistemologists, because each individual who states the narrative chooses one's own words. The choice of words reflects the person's intentions as well as one's disposition and background. The two mix, intention and background, and then "truth" becomes an honest representation of this concoction. To misrepresent one's intentions, or to use words pretentiously is to be dishonest.
Being here with the name "Undercover", I let it slip out that the honest representation is what I avoid. Do I misrepresent my intentions, or am I pretentious? Or is everything I say here just a dishonest concoction of both?
That's not new, though, it's been common in literature for centuries.
On the other hand, it's about the reader's intentions for reading a narrative.
Nevermind whether the writer wants to deceive. Does the reader want to deceive himself?
The Iliad comes to mind; where the war likely happened but the writers did not actually think that the Acheans fought against Apollon and Ares in the battlefield.
The problem? Fingers and hands too big. I'm on a classic desktop keyboard right now, so, easy typing.
But other than that, the post edit function doesn't work from a phone, nor the reply function (the quote function does). Also, the size of the text is very small. Obviously, it can be enlarged with the two-fingers function, but some other websites allow for making the letters bigger altogether, without the need for scrolling left and right.
Not sure whether any of this is just due to my phone.
Quoting javi2541997
Of course you can use cursive, you just write the tags manually, or mark the text and add the automatic tags for bold, and then change the b to an i.
I might literally go for greener pastures. I want to do something like this with our garden:
I don't have much time for the forums anyway. I don't know how you guys manage it, with full-time jobs and families and households. I just can't keep up. It's frustrating. I would love to read and post more, but I just can't find the time, and come evening, I'm so tired I usually pass out around 8PM.
Thank you, Baker, my mate.
Do you like steak and Barbastro pink tomato? Because this is what I will have for supper this night, and you are invited to my home.
I guess you have already tasted Barbastro tomato, but just in case, here you have a very indicative and striking picture:
Examples not that hard to come by
Lol.
No, I probably haven't. I grow tomatoes, but it's too cold/the growing season too short for such large tomatoes as Barbastro. I grow varieties with small to middle-sized fruits, because they are the only ones that have enough time to grow here. Up until some twenty years ago, it was perfectly possible to grow large-fruit varieties of tomatoes, the growing season was more than sufficiently long. But not anymore. In the spring, the cold lasts well into May, and comes back already in August. Add to this the now usual torrential rains, and it's just not a tomato-friendly climate anymore. And tomatoes grown under plastic in a hothouse are just not good.
We call those Heirloom tomatoes in America, although I'm sure there are specific names for specific ones. On the east coast they're only in season from around August through maybe October. When they're good, they're incomparably better than out of season tomatoes. Many foodies refuse to eat out of season tomatoes, and for good reason. I'm a foodie, but I'm also a garbage disposal, so I still eat them out of season.
I trust there will be no shortage of hopefully nearly-offensively high resolution imagery that you will not skimp out on sharing with us all.
I understand. Don't watch "El Ejido" on YouTube. You will have nightmares this night if you do so...
Cool! :cool:
Quoting Noble Dust
Enjoy your dinner party, mate. The last time I ate pizza was last summer... Yeah, it has been a while. :chin:
Nah, I'm trying to make NYC style pizza. Basil is good on a margarita pie with fresh mozz, but otherwise for me it's a bit overrated as a topping.
I shall try to remember to photographically document.
Quoting javi2541997
Is there much of a pizza scene in Madrid? I assume it's Neapolitan style if so?
Understood. :up:
Good luck with the party.
I can't see how. Guess I was wanting to know how...
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Both are subjective opinion. But it can be objective that someone thinks something of you.
I can't eat basil. My mother used to beat me with it.
To be honest, it's substandard cuisine, but I don't have the heart to tell the gastroenterologist.
No concerns. Just a routine old person gut check.
These questions are either trolls, or reposted troll questions by Quora bots to keep the site alive. Quora bots also make up their own stupid questions, but they are not that dumb.
Some success of a lesson that was. NOT! :smirk:
It's not as big - or important - as other cities like NYC. We have tapas, and this is what the people demand the most. Also, I think Asian food has settled down pretty well in Madrid. But, again, it's not even close to NYC. You even have your own Chinatown. London, too... we haven't reached that level yet. And yes, most of the pizzas here are Neapolitan style.
That's cool. Off the top of my head I know of three different Chinatowns in NYC, but a quick google search tells me there are actually nine. I'm not sure I totally agree that some of these areas have what constitutes a Chinatown, but I'm no expert.
Quoting javi2541997
I hope you get a chance to visit NYC at some point and try the pizza, if you haven't already. I'm biased but it's worth the hype to me.
Seconded, in a very forthright fashion.
Tony's on Knickerbocker and Empire are some of hte best I've ever had. That said, I purposely sampled 30 pizzerias in NYC. I cannot remember htem all LOL.
Thirty is pretty impressive. I haven't had that Tony's, although I think you might mean Knickerbocker and Greene. For old school slices my favorites include Di Fara (the original location), Luigi's in South Slope and Joe's (whichever location; they're all consistent). I'm not sure how recently you visited, but there's now a wave of "new school" slice shops making "elevated" NYC style pizza. Some of it is really good but I have mixed feelings. For that style my favorites are L'Industrie and Fini.
I came immediately after Trump's election. Late 2016. Unsure i copped any of these 'elevated' versions. I did have a couple that I did not enjoy and may have been of that style.
Unfortunately, one of these was Amadeus' on 8th and 50th ... how ironic.
Quoting Noble Dust
This rings a bell, but I didn't keep notes. Will have to seek out when i go back.
The trend started after that, so doubtful. L'Industrie was one of the earlier ones and it opened in 2017. It really only became a thing after the pandemic. I haven't heard of Amadeus, but it looks pretty blah.
There was no previous pizza making party. The first time I tried to make dough was a personal project involving no social event.
Depends on how important pizza is to you. If you’re a nerd like me, it’s worth it.
I just want to say, a lot of the reason this place is great isn't necessarily the users (though there are some with that combination of thoughtful, respectful, even in disagreement), etc. But the real reason is that the Plush Forum format is actually very good, perhaps excellent. That is to say, the easy layout of the threads (you don't have threads imbedded in threads like in some "other" notable forums), the ease of quoting, the ability to see mentions and links and replies, etc. Sometimes the forum format makes other settings prohibitive.
So it’s more mechanics than anything that makes the forum. I cannot say it’s the pleasant cast of characters, per se. The tenor is destructive feedback. Contempt foremost, unless you agree of course.
I'd question that. I doubt the suggestion that feedback, (not part of a larger conceptual argument and thus not "feedback" per se), short of ad hominem is "destructive".
We engage, attack, and destroy one another's arguments or theoretical beliefs, not one another. As in not one another's character or personal morality and beliefs, though the last two often will naturally become affected, questioned, or challenged in some way- that's unavoidable in a discussion of opposing views about topics so fundamental to human understanding and existence. We're not arguing about who's car is faster or where the best places in town to get a pizza is. What's at stake, is far, far more ever-reaching and consequential.
I might say, perhaps rarely, something along the lines of "Only an imbecile would think otherwise" if and only if that sentence is immediately preceded by a claim, of my own, I would either defend with my life or participate in an event that creates above nominal risk to my life if said claim were to be incorrect or fundamentally flawed. Very few people, flat out insult one another directly, at least outside of the political threads..
[hide="Reveal"]ie. "No this is why you're wrong and you're an asshat for thinking so." or something, I basically never see that. Those characters don't seem to last very long anyhow.[/hide]
Quoting schopenhauer1
Some things, beliefs, concepts that actually result in real world consequence and change are really that fundamental to one's not only understanding of the world but personal identity. No one likes to be wrong. No one (at least, one would hope) actually argues for or against an idea here unless they actually believe their own discourse. You can't just wake up one morning, go throughout your day, then be given reason everything (or at least a major part of) you knew or believed might be wrong, then go to sleep like a baby. That's just not how the mind works.
People have "styles" or "techniques" of arguing they often rely on, and sometimes these styles or methods can be perceived as fallacies to others. Sometimes they are, I'm sure. Plenty of times the person simply did not express their view in the best choice of words or metaphors and the two go off on some random personal tangent where the root argument has long fled the debate and just start ignoring one another from that point on. Which is unfortunate for the rest of us because some of us do actually learn a lot from others, even when those others happen to be wrong, which we all have been at some point and likely will be again in the future.
Which is tantamount to one's being, assuming there is a genuine and deep commitment binding understanding and personal identity:
In history, mind makes itself by coming to know its own past. Since, in history, as opposed to science, the subject and object thought about are identical, knowing makes a difference to the object known. Both the historian's present experience and the past which is "incapsulated" in it are affected by the historian's knowledge of it. What is more, the historian's own mind undergoes a corresponding change. History is now only self-knowledge, it is also self making...Philosophy is the reflective moment of this experience in which the self-making process itself is made an object of knowledge. (Rubinoff, Collingwood and the Reform of Metaphysics)
I’ve been on this forum and the one before it for a long time. I am very familiar with what you what you describe. What would you like me to say? Some people are fun to discuss things, even in disagreement, some people are exhausting. A good dialectic isn’t about agreement. I’ll have to come back and explain how it is some posters can be agreeable even if they disagree, if that makes sense.
:up:
Quoting schopenhauer1
I think it is not destructive, but aggressive. The tone of some users is at the same level as their ego. They quickly insult and disrespect your ideas in the following nanoseconds you disagree with them, and you can even read disgusting comments. What I have learned from these guys is just to ignore them. Fortunately, they are not the largest number and most of the folks here are cute, kind, handsome, etc. Don't suffer from a headache just because some users sign up here for discussing. I entered TPF to have fun and, fortunately, I made a lot of friends here who help me to improve my grammar and Jesus! I am more confident enough here than in 'real' life conversations.
It is crazy how heavily it rains in Madrid.
Time to eat: Spaghetti with tomato and jamón serrano.
Yeah I was trying to be cute by using “destructive”. Aggressive is a good one too. But destructive is illustrative because it’s often the antonym for “constructive feedback”. Meaning there’s a way to provide disagreement that perhaps causes less animosity and allows for fruitful dialectic of two sides.
This satirical website is iconic for the issue.
:lol: Thanks for the visuals on what NOT to do. But I think we even know very popular websites that are surprisingly primitive (not in the good "clean" interaction way either). I think just about every forum should follow the Plush level formatting for ease of use. I am surprised if they don't, other than it's legacy.
If I had to deal with nested threads within threads within threads. I think I would move on, for example.
I don't mind the minimal markdown of some forums. The one before this needed that. I still use it sometimes here, but there are ones that are extremely popular that mainly rely on it, and don't even have the quote feature of click, drag, quote.
So far as any man is a competent philosopher, his philosophy arises by objective necessity out of his situation....but situation and problem are unique, and hence no one philosopher’s system can be acceptable to another without some modification. That each must reject the thoughts of others, regarded as self-contained philosophies, and at the same time reaffirm them as elements in his own philosophy, is due not to causes in taste and temperament but to the logical structure of philosophical thought.
~Collingwood,Essay on Philosophical Method
Food for thought....
So what do you think that implies? Just the dialectic nature of philosophy to synthesize various previous POVs?
Me neither. Although I have no traumatic history with it. (Haha, I doubt you have it.)
In 2022, I bought a basil plant whose smell I love (haven't tasted it, though). It doesn't have the smooth leaves basil varieties usually have. It's not winter hardy, so I'm overwintering it indoors, successfully for the second winter now.
Interesting. I wrote a text a few years ago, which today I hate, one of whose fragments runs alike:
The text was translated to English with Google translate, so don't mind the poor style.
You, Pantagruel, say in your "Discourse on the Method":
I love to eat, but I am not good enough at thinking.
Precisely, I was arguing with my parents that although some pork steaks expire on January 5th, they can be eaten without any problem, and the ‘expiry’ date is a lie created by the owners of markets and food suppliers with the aim of forcing us to keep buying provisions endlessly.
I don’t know if we had a philosophical debate in my home, but I am 100 % sure that I will have the steaks for supper tonight.
Not really. Generally around the world it is a government regulation based on food hygiene advice that perishable foodstuffs only keep for a certain number of days. If it is consumed after that date it might be off and cause illness. Here we also have a recommend a 'best before' date to allow for some flexibility. While it is true that meat might keep for a few days after the date advice, meat sometimes goes off before the 'use by' date too. This expiry date is always slightly arbitrary, but a reasonable guide in general.
I read the first thing that popped up on your blog, about mass hysteria. The people dancing for no reason and the nuns meowing. Do you think that those events were perhaps a case of what we today in the 21st century call an "irl shitpost", whose historical records depicted as more serious than it really was?
For example, watch this clip here, wouldn't you say it is a case of modern mass hysteria?
(sorry that it had to be tiktok, it is the only place the clip was available at)
We tend to think of humans of the past as quite serious, and obviously it differs from culture to culture, but considering ancient pagan Romans were drawing penises on walls and depicting their Christian friends as praying to a donkey, it is unwise to think humans back then were any less goofy than today, especially when back then there was not one sliver of the entertainment we have today, and there were no cameras to record people doing crazy stuff. It may be that people were much wilder and more fun than we are today, with more vibrant personalities and spontaneousness to their actions.
My wife is skeptical of it, but we've never gotten sick from Woo Hoo meat yet.
I got some lamb the other day that was rotten. There is no mistaking rancid meat. The smell will knock you down. I think the deadlines on the foods are conservative to be safe, but you're probably safe a few days late if it otherwise looks and smells ok.
Fresh fruit and vegetables are usually safe and wholesome for a period of time beyond their expiration date, but fresh fruit and vegetables do age and lose flavor and nutritional value as the days pass. Avoid moldy produce.
Meat and fish? Use your sensory apparatus. Does the meat pass the smell test? Any scent of putrefaction is a no-go. If the food feels slimy (when it doesn't normally feel that way) dump it. discoloration may indicate spoilage.
Milk? Spoiled milk and cream develope a sour flavor and curdle. It's readily noticeable. Pasteurized milk will not have significant pathogens (like tuberculosis), which wouldn't be detectable in the kitchen, anyway.
Frozen food? In my humble opinion, frost-free freezers degrade some frozen foods. The frost-free feature seems to result in some foods thawing and refreezing, which produces frost INSIDE its seal bag. This isn't poisonous, but it may ruin the food. A freezer should not be used as a long-term storage dump. The quality of food can deteriorate after a year in a freezer. Use whatever you put in there within a few months. Date packages so you can see that the dubious lamb chop has been in the freezer for 3 years.
Stinky cheese is smelly to start with. How does one tell when the blue cheese has spoiled? Best policy: eat it soon. Dried salt codfish starts out stinky. How would one know it had spoiled? How do you tell whether disgusting food is spoiled? Pork guts smell bad when fresh as a daisy.
I don't hear of large die-offs of human populations owing to expired sell-by food. Millions of people get sick from food that was contaminated on its way out of the fields and onto their plates. Some people do get sick from eating food that spoiled once they got it home. Food poisoning can be a very memorable experience.
I think it's quite possible for mass hysteria to take place now, and it may be that it would be considered less extraordinary than the examples of the past,simply because most everything we do is recorded for one reason or another. The laughing event of 1962 took place not all that long ago.
The penis in Roman times was considered a good luck charm, which is why I think you see it depicted so often in, for example, Pompeii and elsewhere. Of course it could be depicted for other reasons as well.
Thanks for looking at the blog.
Apparently protective phalloi had to be associated with the phallic gods. Just any old run of the mill hard-on wouldn't have any special powers.
One night in 415 BC some cunning person snapped off all of the phalloi in public places in Athens. This ultimately led to the downfall of Athen's democracy (but, naturally, not in a straightforward way).
What’s the joke? Is it that Sbarro is just a regular chain rather than a real authentic New York pizza place? Or something like that.
Sbarro is a notoriously bad pizza chain that mimics NY slice shops that basically only exists in shopping mall food courts at this point.
Thanks. So I was right. Love it when that happens. :strong:
Essentially, yes.
Hehehe
1. The images of Jesus were the Orthodox version, not the Catholic one. We hardly see this 'version' in Spain.
2. The Russian embassy was in front of the hospital. Coincidence? No mate!
3. A random Asian nun came into our room, checking if everything was fine... she was so cute. I am shy, and I regret not asking her if she was from Japan.
Europe's production of random nuns is extremely low, like close to zero. Same in North America. The last nuns I saw were from India.
I know the hospital you’re talking about because I’ve been to that embassy a few times to get visas.
Quoting javi2541997
No no, you had a lucky escape. Falling in love with a nun is best avoided.
What an endearing post.
You see a young woman who is entirely off limits, but who still captures your attention, and you want just to ask her an innocuous question so the two of you can have an innocent fleeting interaction, but you fear her just for the influence her beauty has over you, so you leave with the thought of what could have been.
If only you could take that gentleness and put it in a bottle and pour it over the world.
Quoting BC
I agree. When I got home and I told my mom the experience, she said to me: Our country no longer produces believers! Ha! I saw satisfaction in her eyes.
Plaza de los delfines and República Argentina metro! Jesus Christ! Jamal, maybe (just maybe), we met each other in the street, but we never noticed it. My school (and the houses of my mates) is near to that neighborhood: El Viso. The embassies of Ireland, Morocco, and Thailand are also there. What a coincidence! When I passed by the embassy before, it was closed, and I didn't see any light in the windows. I thought they were not working because of the stupid war and how my country is on Ukraine's side. :confused:
You are close to Plaza de los Delfines?
I live really close by but am leaving on Wednesday.
The nun get up was the give away.
Plenty in North America, especially of the legendary Malta order.
I live in Vallecas. :smile:
But I have spent most of my life in El Viso. I studied there (Efeso New School, which is no longer working), and my friends live around. It is funny because when I attended Nebrija, I thought I would hardly come back, but most of my classmates were from El Viso too.
The world is not that big after all, or sometimes, it seems that it is not.
Unless Manuel and Javi are psychopathic murderers, it's low risk. If you are both psychopathic murderers, you'll have something extra to talk about. Always a plus.
The sisters used to operate a string of a dozen large hospitals around the country, schools, a University and other services. The hospital facilities have been sold and the k-12 schools are either closed or under diocesan management, St. Catherine's University is going strong.
That is fine if you are talking about your region. Your original comment, however, says "North America", which turns your claim untrue.
Mexico? Oddly, the usual searches in Google and Bing yielded no figures for the number of religious in Mexico. Odd. Apparently they didn't have to count them all. Now, no one will know how many nuns it takes to fill the Estadio Azteca.
So, despite not providing a number for total nunnery in Mexico, the fact is that nuns are rare in North America. In 1965 there were about 200,000 nuns in the US (plus many more priests and brothers than there are now) when the number of Catholics was about 48 million, 20+ million fewer than there are now.
Not to pick on black-robed sisters, Protestant denominations were also hemorrhaging members in the 1960s, and no denomination has recovered the lost members.
I am very shy about arranging a meeting, honestly. My social-interaction skills are below zero. We can be turned out good mates, but you may think I am a freak in the beginning. Also, Manuel says he leaves on Wednesday, and I am busy as hell for both opositar and having my dad at the hospital.
There was one memorable guy from New Zealand who got banned on this site's predecessor, and then got banned again here.
I think there are or have been a few members in Edinburgh, where I used to live and may live again.
Quoting javi2541997
Whenever someone from TPF suggests meeting up or even just doing a video chat my first reaction is oh my God Jesus Christ NO! But that’s because of a congenital social anxiety, no reflection on the people here (if they really are people). These days, I may appear to have mastered this anxiety, since I can be the life and soul of a party and turn on the charm, but fundamentally I am always initially inclined against meeting anyone new.
That said, if I were in the same city as a TPF member I liked, I'd meet them. That said, I'll be in Edinburgh later this year. :fear:
You should have spoken to her, that would have broken the spell. Or perhaps you already knew that, and that's why you didn't speak to her, in order to make the magic last.
Quoting BC
It's a highly competitive business by now. A monastic is expected to have a college degree, preferrably an advanced degree, be from the right socio-economic background, young and healthy enough etc.
All the more reason to meetup with TPF members if there is an opportunity. Developing skills takes practice. TPF members seem mostly harmless. Think of it like the short story competition - an opportunity to develop social skills.
I've met up with at least four different members of internet forums that I've been on, and been on phone and video calls with others. They have never been bad experiences, and have in all cases been experiences I have learned from.
Exactly. And due to social congenital anxiety, I have never used apps for flirting. When I was in university, this practice was very common among my mates and I always wondered if they ever had anxiety about having a meeting with the virtual boy or girl they were talking to...
Quoting Jamal
So, you will never meet me! :cry:
Quoting wonderer1
Are you really sure? :cool:
She has a Chinese name, but she wants to be called Hermana Rosa.
My father tells me she gave him the orthodox Jesus I talked about yesterday in a cute cardboard. Look:
I like you Javi, I just disagree with everything you say :grin:
Quoting javi2541997
It's actually Italian:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Damiano_cross
According to my minute of research, what you've identified is the style of the Eastern (Byzantine/Orthodox) church, which was influential in Italy in the middle ages, and which had also produced the Russian Orthodox church around the same time.
That's how a real mate behaves, indeed. :smile:
Quoting Jamal
Interesting information to find out. Thanks. :up:
What is that??
It seems more likely that you actually wish to be liked by everyone and perhaps can't handle even just the thought of someone not liking you.
Wow. This could be the reason. But rather than wishing to be liked by others, my insecurity is based on being disliked due to my beliefs, ideas or who I am.
Per George Frederich Handel. who wrote a song about being thoroughly disliked on the basis of existential qualities...
He was despised and rejected
A man of constant sorrows
And acquainted with grief
So welcome to the club. Some of the finest people belong!
How so? Humans and Jesus are not in the same category. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.
The club you talk about is a club of one.
In other words, you can't handle even just the thought of someone not liking you. It's simply a part of life that you're never going to be good enough for some people. The sooner you accept this, the better.
The quickest way to overcome "social anxiety" is to stop telling people you have it. Telling about it makes you look incompetent, unattractive, and people tend to feel negatively about you because of it. Instead, quit talking about it, and watch as things get better.
I love both the song and the film. Coen brothers are truly amazing filmmakers. Right?
Quoting baker
I am literally incompetent and unattractive :lol: , and people tend to avoid me. Due to these characteristics, I have developed social anxiety and fear of young people and girls (or females, generally). My psychologist says I need group therapy, but I am never motivated enough to go.
You are aware of your social anxiety, so you can do something about it. Group therapy? Individual therapy? I don't know how well or what kind of therapy would work for you. In any event, you are a smart guy, so you can figure out how to deal with the problem. There are (at least) two approaches to dealing with phobias or anxieties: One approach is to nibble around the edges of what bothers a person, gradually reducing the fear and anxiety. So, set small goals for social interaction and learn for yourself that you CAN interact positively with other people. Expect positive reactions from others. (Which, of course, you won't always get -- but that's just normal.)
Another approach is to dive into the deep end of the pool. Put yourself in a situation where social interaction is maximized--for a set period of time (like... 1/2 hour). A bar, a party, a church social event, etc. Then withdraw and reflect on how it wasn't so terrible. This is called "flooding". Usually this sort of thing is set up by a therapist, but one can do it on one's own. Sure, you will at first feel anxiety going into a lively social setting. The thing is, you will find that it isn't the end of the world.
"Cognitive Behavioral Therapy" is another approach. The core of this therapy is that you combine an effort to change the way you think about xyz (in your case, social interaction) and how you behave. It's a gradual approach and is fairly effective for lots of problems, so I hear.
You can start by thinking positive thoughts about yourself. Move on to saying (out loud) positive things about yourself (you don't have to do this in public, of course). But it is important to talk positively to yourself. Don't think / Don't say negative things about yourself. Say positive things about yourself, and say them with conviction. Fake it till you make it!
Quoting javi2541997
Stop that!
In the real world, everybody has significant flaws, and they manage to get along just fine, You can too!
On the other hand, I have never seen social anxiety and "nonsocial, unsocial, and social uninterest" as a big issue, but when parents started to notice that it was impossible for me to establish basic social interaction. For example: I remember suffering a lot when I had to go to a birthday or the house of someone I didn't know enough.
I always thought "that's the way I am, I tend to not like people and they don't like me. Easy" My parents think I have a serious disorder, but they are already used to me.
If I haven't put into practice any approach, it is because I decided to accept my phobia, not overcome it.
I thought Jesus was in the category of human, until he got kicked out, executed for claiming himself to be of another category. The act of kicking him out is what actually put him into, another category.
Want to join the club? Just be totally contemptuous and disagreeable toward the prevailing club, and you'll be exiled, shunned, kicked out and forced into a club of one. Then you'll be in a club of one, and the rest of us club-of-oners, Jesus included, will welcome you to the club of club-of-ones.
It would seem to me that if you have learned to accept and live with your phobia, that you have overcome it. Just because it has not gone away does not mean it still dominates you.
I have claustrophobia, but I got used to working down a mine where there are some very tight places you have to work in. I needed the job so I accepted that I am claustrophobia and went ahead with it. It was not easy and it did not cure me, but I was able to do the job.
I tried walking down the Shining Path Trail of the Grand Canyon; I did not make it very far before I was overwhelmed by the vast abyss.
I used to find spiders and spider webs very disturbing. That phobia has lessened over time.
I could never be Spiderman.
I also don't do amusement park rides. The heights are a problem as is the motion sickness.
I don't have social phobias though. I have no problem with public speaking, singing loudly on the subway, asking random people questions, or confronting people who need confronting. The fun I lack in high places I more than make up for with unexpected public displays.
I found that my fear of heights has increased with age as well, and my lack of social concern has also.
Is there a way to increase the text size for TPF on a smart phone? (And not the two fingers option.)
Thanks.