creativesoul

Respectfully Banno... While I am all for using the simplest framework possible for taking proper account, I am also all for taking proper account. If ...

Furthermore, knowing who Jane is talking about does not help a listener at all to know which man satisfies that description... "The man who killed Bob...

So, we refer by ostension and/or description. We do so prior to taking what we're doing into account. Our accounts are existentially dependent upon ou...

Well early on Kripke says that 'designator' is a term that covers both, names and descriptions.

One is about the report of the thing, the other is about the thing. Sometimes we talk about the report. Is that not the thing in those cases? The dist...

This topic has been discussed and/or skirted around for centuries in one form or another. The result is that it is extremely complex discourse to navi...

I do remember that. It's been the source of a bit of confusion on my part. See if I have this right... Here the difference between reference fixing an...

You're saying that false description does not pick out the referent, but rather that it has/had already been picked out by true description or demonst...

This seems odd to me. On the one hand you agree that false descriptions can successfully refer. On the other, you seem to be implying that they cannot...

Well you asked a question that could only be answered with such ambiguity. I also do not see how it takes us out of the realm of descriptivist account...

Not to speak on behalf of andrewk, but rather on my own behalf... The above criticism is based upon a misunderstanding of belief and how it works. Fal...

Simply put... As a result of the speaker knowing how to use language to draw an other's attention to the 'object'.

The truth of the DD is irrelevant to successful reference. The speaker believes it to be true. That's relevant.

If one believes that the person is drinking champagne, then the description represents the belief. The belief refers to the person the speaker believe...

So, it seems that at times I'm understanding Kripke's lectures, and at others I've critiqued what he offers as though it is his own position when it i...

Thanks. Perhaps I have conflated what Kripke is granting as a means to argue against, and what he's actually claiming himself with regard to reference...

Hmmm... His text and his footnotes both clearly set out his notion of the 'referent of the description' as the object uniquely satisfying the conditio...

This is from earlier... cleaned up a bit. ...Kripke's doctrine doesn't seem capable of properly accounting for false belief. In fact, some cases of fa...

I cannot see that. What's your take on Kripke's notion of the 'referent of the description' in cases of false belief in the form of false description?

It seems you're talking about something that I am not. What's at issue is whether or not false description can be used to successfully refer. Kripke's...

While I offered a case where Jane knows Joe by name, it is not necessary for her to successfully refer to Joe, even in cases where she does not know h...

Did I? Where? IF what you say is true, then Jane could not successfully pick Joe out by virtue of false description alone. BUT SHE DOES... It's up to ...

And there...

There and elsewhere...

Jane shows otherwise.

To her there is no difference. That is precisely the point.

Read and quote my example... Then address it's flaws if you see any.

emphasis mine This contradicts everyday events like Jane's. Clearly her reference does not depend upon her knowing who Joe is independently of her fal...

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He looks like the man who she believes killed Bob. She knows that. Doesn't hardly pass the muster of knowing something about Joe independently of her ...

No. It doesn't. Jane need not know anything at all about Joe. She need only to recognize Joe as the person she believes killed Bob.

It can be the case that his critique of certain positions holds good, and that both he and the proponents of those other positions are both wrong abou...

Something else of equal importance. There are cases where there is no need for use of definitive description being accompanied by proper name in order...

Sure. No problem. I'm painfully aware of my tendency to go off on a tangent without leaving enough breadcrumbs, so to speak, for a reader to follow. E...

Maybe I've misunderstood? Sure, I mean that can happen. I see no reason to believe that that is the case here. Rather, it seems clear to me that Kripk...

That's what.... Ya'll have fun...

If by "this" you're referring to the bits I've been raising about false belief... Well, in short, Kripke's doctrine doesn't seem capable of properly a...

False description unaccompanied by proper name will not pick out the individual, regardless of the speaker's belief.

The proper name is irrevocable to being able to successfully refer when positing hypotheticals. This is obvious as a result of proper name and false d...

That's how the idea came up to begin with... Kripke's examples... it shows the primacy of the proper name...

You have not understood correctly. You have not quoted the relevant material being referred to in the beginning of that reply. No. I would not agree t...

So Kripke points out that false descriptions can still successfully refer to a specific individual if they are accompanied by proper name. Is that an ...

Here's my view on the matters at hand, as I understand them to be. It's a bit beneath others' notions of "reference"... Initial successful reference(a...

Sure, but what relevance does this have to what's at issue? What's at issue is whether or not false descriptions are capable - all by themselves - of ...

Then the referent is not equivalent to the person being spoken of. That doesn't sound right to me...

Hmmm... We're talking about historical and current convention with regard to theories of reference. Given this... Are you asking me why should we care...

If you think that that suggested comparison is helpful to the question I'm raising about whether or not false description alone is capable of successf...

This doesn't seem to help. What's at issue is whether or not false description(false belief statements) are capable of successful reference all by the...

False description unaccompanied by proper name will not pick out the individual, will it - regardless of the speaker's belief?

I think the example of false belief is very very interesting. It shows that one need not say something true in order to successfully refer to somethin...