creativesoul

You've said many things my friend, including talking about the propositional content of belief statements.

Are you claiming that we cannot know what the content of non linguistic thought/belief is because those creatures do not have language?

I'm saying that such talk of "getting into the mind" of anything is misleading at best. There are better ways to talk about our thought/belief.

Make your position/argument in such a way that it pertains to and/or references the two Gettier cases. That may help. Not trying to be rude dude. You'...

That's not true. We look and check for ourselves to see if the cup is on the table, and we do not look at the justification. There is no god's eye vie...

When Smith thinks to himself, "the man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job", the referent of "the man" is himself not Paul and that is not p...

I'm still left wondering what all those different kinds of thinking have in common such that they count as being cases of thinking. Clearly we agree t...

So, we agree that propositional expressions represent and/or misrepresent the speaker's own thought/belief, that the thinking/believing non and/or pre...

This doesn't make any sense to me.

What are these propositional expressions doing if not representing and/or misrepresenting the speaker's own thought/belief on the matter?

Ok. What is the justification for going that far? :smile:

So, we can talk about the content of post linguistic thought/belief. You agree as shown above. It's actually tied into Gettier and the OP... Conventio...

Do you take issue with talking about the content of our(as metacognitive creatures) thought/belief?

Reflecting a bit more on Gettier... Knowing what it takes for a disjunction to be true is knowing the conventional rules. Why ought we believe that Sm...

In light of the above agreements, do you accept the following? Pre-linguistic believing requires a creature capable of drawing correlations between di...

This ought be gotten into... Next time! :smile: Til then... Cheers!

Looks like you understand.

I thought you may find that interesting. It's reminiscent of Hume. He struggled with belief, by his own admission. He did mention expectation. I won't...

Perhaps. But that would obligate us to admit that all correlation/association inevitably 'produces expectation'. I do not think it does... pace the di...

None that I'm aware of. Typically, convention conflates propositions and belief, and has for centuries. I blame it on the church. The vestiges thereof...

And yet, as we agree, belief has that something extra, that additional commitment that thinking doesn't have. Could it be that our metacognitive accou...

You know Janus, I've given you more flack over the above considerations than anyone deserves. I mean, without question I am the one in the minority he...

You're all over the place. There's one basic disagreement between us that is worth discussing here, because it's what piqued my interest regarding wha...

Indeed! We'll pick up later. Be well.

If it's true for our earliest stages...

The determinant content of thought/belief that is prelinguistic cannot be propositional. Nevertheless, the content of all thought/belief can be expres...

Some descriptions of believing can only be had by a creature capable of metacognition(Gettier's cases). That is drawing correlations between past and ...

Well, we get to here. I do not remember our ever having finished hashing it out. The caution against anthropomorphism is already well considered.

What else could differentiate pre-linguistic believing from post-linguistic believing if not the content? Sometimes being uncomfortable is not a bad t...

Could you re-phrase this? What is the referent of "the believing"? The process of thought/belief formation? The 'act' of thought/belief formation? The...

The same target. The critiques differ in their sharpness.

Nah. There's much to be gleaned here. Nothing wrong with that!

To be sure... Are we agreeing that the thinking/believing creature cannot state it's own thought/belief? Are we agreeing that the thought/belief of a ...

You're being unusually conducive here. Something wrong? :joke:

If the critique I've put forth here holds good, then Gettier poses no problem for JTB, even as it is currently understood with belief having propositi...

And yet there are justified false beliefs. Paradigm shift happens by virtue of peeling them away from conventional certainty. Copernican revolution. E...

I don't understand this at all. What in the world does "access to truth" mean? We can look to see if a cup is on the table. That's access enough, righ...

seems quite confused... If we were to clean up JTB by virtue of dropping one of the three... it would have to be the justification aspect, as traditio...

Such as?

Stop writing shit that you don't really mean... What's wrong with discussing justified true belief?

There's an oddity on another level. Speaking of belief having propositional content... On the one hand(Case II), Gettier wants us to join two proposit...

Smith believes that the man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job because Smith believes that he has ten coins in his pocket and Smith is refe...

This is all becoming more and more ridiculous if you ask me. Who on earth could sit and say - with a straight face - that Smith believed Brown was in ...

Then the latter cannot be substituted for the former. We're assessing the former, not the latter. I'm saying that there are some beliefs which are mor...

I did not say such a thing about all that.

No, it does not. "My friend is moving to London because she got a new job at a law firm." is not equivalent to "My friend is moving to London."

I'm aware of the convention Michael.

More likely that they did not see their own mistake. Much more likely... Are you saying that you do not see how getting human thought/belief right is ...

One would think so... none wrote about it.

Not drawing and maintaining the actual distinction between thought/belief and thinking about thought/belief, and as a result mistakenly thinking/belie...