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Form is being used in two ways in this discussion: I've said: The form of a proposition is: subject-predicate. and A languageless proposition takes th...

If you say it this way, it works: Jack believed that the clock was working and believed that "the clock is working" is true. Your insertion of the adj...

This distinction between a statement and a proposition is what I'm looking at. Is the statement "unicorns do not exist" of the same order as "the pres...

If you ask me what is apprehended in a statement I might say: information of one kind or another. Then I could say: the content of a proposition is in...

Thanks :smile:

If possible worlds are understood in this way, however, it is important to distinguish two meanings for talk of ‘the actual world’. This may refer eit...

What is the relation between the unknown and the ("merely") possible? Is there a link?

Can you clarify this? How can the word "propositional" in "propositional attitude" be replaced by the word "statement"? The former is an adjective, th...

Sounds good. I'll have a look.

I'm not trying to invent a theory, only to understand what a proposition is and how best to talk about them.

I see what I see what you're saying. It's actually my account of the form of propositions. I'll have to think it over and try again. "Unicorns only ex...

Fred is the existent. The thing he is doing is believing unicorns do not exist. An existent doing something.

Maybe. As foundational as they are to this kind of discourse, it seems important to know exactly what a proposition is. Moore wants to center on what ...

Sure. In this context, 'existent' is a word I define as: something (anything) that exists. Do we really need to question what it means to exist in the...

Is there something "common between certain statements," or not?

Existent: something (anything) that exists. I don't see a problem.

"What is apprehended" seems to give us "what is common between" the three statements below. What would you say "is common between" these three stateme...

Proposition: the sort of thing which is apprehended in a statement. This is the propositional form: existents doing things. X does Y. Subject-predicat...

It was the expression "propositional attitude" that seemed murky. This is clear. It's confusing to tack on "propositional," likely because I have no k...

I meant the starting point for talking about languageless beliefs.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's likely that we just disagree. I won't be hurt if you step away from the exchange. I'm only here for fun and intellec...

Yes, before humans, things were doing things. This is the propositional form: things doing things. X does Y. Subject-predicate.

I'm actually not. Let's try again. A proposition has this form: things doing things. Reality has this form: things doing things.

Yes, there were things (subjects) doing things (predicates).

Reality has the form of a proposition: subject-predicate. It's inherent in the real. No need to name or take accout.

This seems to be you answering your question.

I'm muddling through this and now think the word attitude is problematic and should be dropped. Instead, in regard to belief, I might say: a belief ha...

The form of images or memories of objects, sensations, emotions, feelings, and their relationships.

(I'm making an attempt to synthesize Banno's and Moore's definition of a proposition.) To clear up my own confusion: especially as regards form and co...

I don't think you need this bit. I don't think the naming and taking account play a role. It should just be: I think it's clearer to say 'states of af...

Without recruiting scribbles or sounds (even noetic scribbles or sounds) a proposition takes this form: subject-predicate. The subject-predicate form ...

If it isn't public - if it's truly private - then it ought to drop out of consideration. That's my understanding of one implication of the beetle in t...

Does the cat (fallen among language-users) have a beetle in its box? Maybe, maybe not. Of course we can be wrong. We can be wrong without knowing in w...

Thanks. :smile:

How's this definition of a proposition?: Moore claims: In the one case what is apprehended is the meaning of the words: Twice two are four; in the oth...

Then it would be: Non-propositional content (states of affairs) have the form of a proposition.

It may be more accurate to simply say: What is the case has the form of a proposition. In the case of an unknown state of affairs we can then say that...

Yes, non-propositional content (states of affairs) "can be placed into propositional form."

We've already assumed or inferred that languageless beliefs exist so we don't need to couch it in terms of ascription.

This sounds like a good description of the non-propositional content of a languageless belief. It may be objects, mental images, emotions, memories, s...

It's an assumption or inference. I'm comfortable with it as a starting place.

ahem, backing up 1. Languageless beliefs exist. 2. The form of a languageless belief is propositional. 3. The content of a languageless belief is non-...

Or an even more foundational starting point: The form of a languageless belief is propositional. The content of a languageless belief is non-propositi...

Possibly better: Languageless belief is non-propositional. All languageless belief, though non-propositional, takes the general form of a proposition ...

Well, Sextus Empiricus is one of my favorites, so if you're in search of what's "beyond any doubt," I might not be much help. Maybe this is a good pla...

Obsession is a kind of inspiration. I'm familiar with it.

Cute. :)

Sounds like a good starting point. :)

We can take a Skinnerian approach and analyze languageless creatures in terms of their observable behaviors and its conditioners and reinforcers. But ...

It sets a boundary to our philosophical forays. We'll run up against the unknowns of animal psychology. You say that thinking about a belief requires ...