schopenhauer1

I agree. I think people do a switcharoo and try to explain the causes of consciousness as some sort of hitherto unexplored origin and then because it ...

I agree with that answer, but I guess now it has turned to this notion (influenced by Wittgenstein) that one cannot even discuss this matter because t...

I'm not sure if you agreed or not but I laid out the argument earlier that there was no "before" or after in an atemporal world. I know you used words...

My argument was that representation "always existing" comes with it the very odd notion that there was a representing organism that was always there a...

Yep I agree with all this. I know you are trying to do the Witt preciseness of language and kind of make it a linguistic tangle so we can see that a r...

Yes! This is exactly the point I am trying to make in the Illusion thread.

Will affirming itself, seems a bit magical.. just like a bunch of biological molecules interacting with the environment "giving rise" to consciousness...

Agreed. But, in a way, Schopenhauer claims it is an illusion (like Maya). How can it be real if there is something "that feels like it is real" even i...

This is where I think the Wittgenstein influence probably makes people stop at a dead end. Because it is the very process which all other processes an...

If that is what he means, then I would be more sympathetic with the argument, but is that what he is getting at that no-thing is similar to the "thing...

So "where" is thought endlessly reacting with itself the aether? Because your "no-thing" and "nowhere" is pretty much code for that. In what way to do...

Ugh, Wittgenstein. It's like code for "stop philosophizing". So what if I can't point to an actual consciousness. It is the very platform for which ev...

Yes, I wasn't saying in Schopenhauer's conception, this was in my own conception. I was trying to solve a conundrum that I see in Schopenhauer as far ...

Please do. Tell us how the question itself in nonsense. I see it as a conundrum and a head scratcher, but meaningless, not as much. We are referring t...

Yeah, but you don't "get" it man..we are all one with no separate minds and you are living in an illusion. I'm not even saying this right now. Oh wait...

That is fair. Objectivity is quite slippery here. I can only try to do this several ways all of which will probably be unsatisfactory (although I woul...

Crypto-philosophical pessimist- I like the sound of that! Perhaps there are thousands more! BC Premise: Your basis for supporting procreation is the p...

While I agree with you that temperament might lead someone to philosophical pessimistic conclusions more readily than someone with a more optimistic t...

That does seem interesting. That might be some good reading. A more contemporary one I've heard was pretty good is Jared Diamond's The World Until Yes...

Oh c'mon Bitter Crank, you should love Schopenhauer- he practically invented the genre of Bitter Crank (or at least perfected it!). But to address wha...

Yes I agree. We cannot even say "develop photoreceptive cells" as we'd have to qualify when "develop" happens and what that is even like before "devel...

Yeah, I thought of the same response after I wrote that. We just have to posit that subjectivity is a brute aspect of matter/energy in pansychism. At ...

Well, we can say the double aspect of Will and representation goes all the way down. Will is never without representation, which are both atemporal.. ...

All of the above.

Yeah, that was basically my question, especially how Will changes and evolves into this or that before representation. Do you think his illusion respo...

I think @"The Great Whatever" thinks I am badly missing the point though. Do you think that is the case? If so, where? If not, where might he be missi...

I don't know, maybe we need a third party. @"csalisbury", do you think what I'm saying make sense?

And I acknowledge that, and thus the Will/Illusion dichotomy is ever present.

It's not that it doesn't clarify, it just doesn't answer it. You keep changing the terms and thinking you are going to get a different result. Will/Il...

Well they are contradictory. You are presupposing that there is the misconception in the first place. How can a misconception exist alongside unity? I...

Perhaps @"csalisbury" is right, Will just swerves into representation :).

That's what I'm saying!

There cannot be misconception. All is Will.

You keep trying to move the goal post but getting at the same problem. Then instead of illusion, you have to account for the "mistaken conception" whe...

Ah, see I told you, you were going to "school" me on illusion :)! This all just seems like getting something from nothing. Your use of the word "arisi...

All this I agree he pretty much lays out and is not my disagreement. THIS is where we disagree. Representation "arising" just does not make sense. Whe...

Unless you are quoting directly from Schopenhauer or unless you are a direct conduit as to Schopenhauer's meaning, we are.

No, I just want you to get at something you are missing. Will "objectifying" itself, I'd like YOUR interpretation of that notion, not explain to me as...

I agree yes, but disagree that because (emphasis mine) And here: What are you talking about? Explain "already" and "objectification of the will".

Let's look at what Schopenhauer said shall we?: The organism must be present for time to be there. We agree on this. We agree that Schopenhauer concei...

@"csalisbury", does this make sense to you, or am I talking to myself here?

The subject is atemporal, but so is the subject/object relationship. I hope that sums it up differently. I agree, if beginnings exist only in time, th...

But it does. If consciousness is not there all along, how could it "come along" when Will has no "time" prior to the "time-in-consciousness" for there...

Let's look at the quote that csalisbury picked so we are both referencing the same part of Schopenhauer: So time itself is only thinkable in the ident...

Yes that came to my mind as well. It seems a bit too basic for Schopenhauer, but that is the only interpretation I can see. I don't see how time comes...

@"The Great Whatever" @"csalisbury" This may be a moot point at this point, but I'd like to go back to Schopenhauer's idea of time, and my interpretat...

Hey, I am not saying that it is wrong, just questioning whether the "Western" standard is universal or not. I guess you are on the universal side: The...

I think that the whole view of Africa is off. If we are judging Africa by Western standards, then it does not live up to the "developed" world of the ...

Similar to other answers I gave, life does not have to be pure agony in order to not be very good. There is no doubt that life has to be tolerable eno...

I don't disagree really. I never claimed that most people cope using suicide ideation. I'm glad you can speak for most people. I guess all is solved. ...