schopenhauer1

Yes, but what scale is anything without any subject? You think there is some disembodied human making the scales subsist?

But that is scale relative to us. What is the scale of anything without anything relative to it. Is there absolute scale?

I did answer. I said no, and no. I explained why. Agendas are had by actual people. No people, no agenda for that person to be had.

Do you think that imagined scale means anything outside our imagined perception?

It is always good to prevent suffering so no whether someone exists to know this or not. No, the other person does not exist yet. No agenda is going t...

Correct.

Yes it's the initial desire, not the assessment of it.

My opinion leads to NO suffering for a future person. Yours doesn't. I win. No one is actually alive be deprived. I win. Ah no. Prevention of joy is n...

Oh yeah, that's why ascetics and meditation and such..things Schopenhauer liked.. but that was to reduce the Will in general. But to for those note me...

Yeah, again, this is not the definition I'm using here. Maybe this other Schopenhauer quote will help in defining negative here:

Then you are not taking into account how I (and Schopenhuaer) are using "negative in nature" here.

Suffering, at this level, is the most important thing to take into consideration. Anything else is having an agenda for another person. So not only ar...

I disagree with your assessment. You are going to a secondary level when I am not. The primary level- there is an initial dissatisfaction. Why is the ...

Here is a quote from Schopenhauer to help you decipher the meaning:

Right you are psychological there- I see what you're doing. No, dissatisfaction is precisely negative, in that there is a near constant lack.

It is the "dealing with" we discussed earlier. That there is an unfulfillment that needs addressing. Dissatisfaction. The First Noble Truth. That sort...

Why is anything more important than the new person's suffering? What about the other stuff makes the threshold to procreate that much more? Because pe...

This is from a previous post I wrote: However, what is not usually recognized is the structural suffering inherent in existence- built into the human ...

Ah I see how you are using that now. You didn't need "I just explained that to you", it's unnecessary (but based on your past posts "reasonable" to ex...

This means nothing to me. Using "reasonable" or "common sensibility" I just won't accept as an argument. Argue something. Don't just use the ambiguous...

What makes the emotions you list more important than causing the conditions for suffering for another though?

If you cannot put the logic together, I can't help you.

Um, I did. Pay attention.

Again, the threshold to kill yourself vs. the threshold to procreate another person are different heuristics. Prior to birth the asymmetry (no one act...

But this is exactly the type of dismissive understanding I'm talking about. Neurosis, for the sufferer, is debillitative, it is just not as externally...

So it is good to bring about negative conditions for others because of the host of emotions you list? So the ability to experience these emotions is t...

Let me get you in a mindset then of the neurotic person... The "average" person may close a door. They may check the handle and turn it to make sure i...

I don't think it has much to do with normality, per se. Rather, someone with a neurotic disorder is believing or doing something they rather not do. I...

Although I agree with you, in spirit, how enculturation and mass media can shape cultural expectations and cause widespread anxieties, I do not think ...

I doubt that for the person experiencing it. But yes, someone can be "riddled" with neurotic behaviors and thoughts and live a daily life. But clearly...

That's an odd way to phrase that. Anyways, I don't know who said "all non-pregnant women are potential mothers".. but that is not quite true. Antinata...

I never quite get why this is a problem for people. The person that would be born if someone were to get pregnant and bring it to term. It is applying...

Again, the point khaled was making earlier was that at the time of procreation, when there is an asymmetry, when all harm can be prevented, and no act...

No, read it correctly, I am saying it is his argument. It is the main point of his argument. And the very fact that it is impossible to obtain consent...

I rewrote the post to be a bit more clear.

Great, so Kantian philosophy would think that if person A did not exist in second 1, but what person B did in second 1 would affect negatively person ...

No one is obligated to the species, only individuals. If the outcome is no species, that would simply be the consequence. No one is beholden to a spec...

But I was trying to show the contrary.

I would imagine that is the caveat that makes this still valid. Even if it is, that is not khaled's argument. His argument is that one should not put ...

Again, I will let khaled answer this because it is his argument. However, again, the riskier option as presented to the parents is obviously letting t...

I disagree with 5 - 7. Actually, I don't even know what that means.. a better formulation: Kant's First Formulation: Act only according to that maxim ...

Perhaps it is not consequential, but even if it is.. I'll look at the rest of the argument here.. I am not sure khaled's view on this so I'll let him ...

Well, he is claiming this is a hard and fast rule it seems. Don't put people in riskier situations if there is an alternative when you have no consent...

The way I read it, he is saying there is absolutely no case he can find where someone should put another in a situation where they are more at risk th...

I will give you this.. you actually quoted something and did not pepper it with snide remarks. This is something I can work with. So what would be a b...

But he did. It is you who are not living up to your end of the debate. This is a debate and he has every right to see you defend your side. Again, sni...

I don't focus on consent. Rather, I focus on forcing others to play a game that (you think at a point in time X) that you like yourself. This is wrong...

The point can be proven many times and someone like yourself can still keep disagreeing. Some people can't be convinced. I accept that. The absence of...

But you weren't- you were equating the situation before birth (the asymmetry) with the situation of suicide or death (no asymmetry). But I bring up th...

No you misunderstand khaled big-time. It's sad that you project onto me and him what you yourself are doing :grimace: . It is not nonexistence tout co...