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Hello!

Maw January 08, 2017 at 18:47 8500 views 52 comments
Howdy gang,

As some of you may remember, I was part of the old Philosophy Forum that for whatever reason has become a ghost town for the last year. What the hell happened there? Nothing is accessible anymore.

Anyway, I've been missing the thrill of philosophical discussions, and have been feeling the need to resharpen by knowledge and debating skill. And while I really dislike this forums layout, I figured I'll give it a shot. Who else is from the old forum?

Comments (52)

_db January 08, 2017 at 18:50 #45275
Reply to Maw Sup mate. Great to see you here.
Emptyheady January 08, 2017 at 18:56 #45277
Welcome lad.

Quoting Maw
And while I really dislike this forums layout, I figured I'll give it a shot.


Same here, but it may be just bias against any change -- eventually you will get used to it.



Shawn January 08, 2017 at 18:59 #45278
Hello there comrade!

Agustino January 08, 2017 at 19:08 #45280
Hello Maw! Welcome! :)
Saphsin January 08, 2017 at 20:00 #45291
A lot of the same people and some new ones I think.
Maw January 08, 2017 at 20:24 #45303
Good to "see" you all again!
Thorongil January 08, 2017 at 21:27 #45323
Reply to Maw Mae govannen, Maw. Good to see you here.
Lower Case NUMBERS January 08, 2017 at 21:58 #45328
Hold the door open on your way in for those on the way out.
Jamal January 08, 2017 at 22:45 #45337
What took you so long?
mcdoodle January 08, 2017 at 22:52 #45343
Welcome, Maw :)
Baden January 09, 2017 at 05:28 #45444
Welcome on board! 8-)
BC January 09, 2017 at 06:20 #45449
Still cranking away. Welcome back.
ArguingWAristotleTiff January 09, 2017 at 11:46 #45477
Hiya Maw!
Wooot Woot!
Glad you are here!
Tiffers
S January 09, 2017 at 12:06 #45481
Welcome, Maw.

Quoting Maw
What the hell happened there? Nothing is accessible anymore.


The short version is that it was sold and then abandoned.

Quoting Maw
Who else is from the old forum?


I am, as are many others.
Jamal January 09, 2017 at 12:09 #45482
Quoting Maw
And while I really dislike this forums layout


Quoting Emptyheady
Same here


What don't you like about it?
Moliere January 09, 2017 at 12:13 #45484
Hello!
Maw January 09, 2017 at 16:28 #45531
Very good to be seeing you all again!

Reply to jamalrob The old forums layout was more of a standard internet forum layout, so it was simply easier to navigate. This layout is pretty unusual to me.
Baden January 09, 2017 at 16:30 #45532
Reply to Maw

You'll get used to it, Maw, and it's far better on mobile if you roll that way.
Emptyheady January 09, 2017 at 16:47 #45547
Reply to jamalrob A traditional forum has more options, but I am getting used to this minimalistic forum design.
Jamal January 09, 2017 at 17:09 #45560
Quoting Maw
The old forums layout was more of a standard internet forum layout, so it was simply easier to navigate. This layout is pretty unusual to me.


So it's about ease of navigation? Anything in particular? I much prefer this one in almost every way, once it's zoomed to 125% at least.

Quoting Emptyheady
A traditional forum has more options


Such as?
Michael January 09, 2017 at 17:11 #45562
Quoting jamalrob
Such as?


Ignore.

:)
Jamal January 09, 2017 at 17:13 #45563
Reply to Michael Yes, that's come up a few times.

In any case, a lack of features has nothing to do with the layout.
Baden January 09, 2017 at 17:17 #45564
It's largely a matter of taste, I think. Personally, I also like it better in just about every way to the previous place.
Emptyheady January 09, 2017 at 17:57 #45576
Reply to jamalrob Colour texts, personalised themes, the threads are much clearer structured as my scope of interest is quite limited regarding philosophy -- but I actually do not want be pedantic.



S January 09, 2017 at 21:03 #45628
Quoting Emptyheady
Colour texts, personalised themes, the threads are much clearer structured as my scope of interest is quite limited regarding philosophy -- but I actually do not want be pedantic.


The categories page is structured just as well - if not better - than the previous forum's main page. It's just that it's not the home page here. But it's only ever a click or two away. If, for example, your interest is limited to logic and philosophy of mathematics, we have a category for that. And if you untick all of the categories outside of your interest, they won't show up on your home page.

Coloured texts and personalised themes I see as trivial. And personally, I prefer it without the option to use coloured text. If you can't use it, you can't abuse it. It just looks neater and more professional when it's all in black.

It's bad enough that you can do this:

:D Coloured texts and personalised themes I see as trivial (Y) . And personally, I prefer it without the option to use coloured text :-$ :-* . If you can't use it, you can't abuse it >:) :B . It just looks neater (Y) and more professional 8-) when it's all in black. (L) O:)


Just imagine how much worse that could be if coloured text was added to the palette! [i]No[/I] to coloured text, [i]no[/I] to signatures, [i]no[/I] to gifs. That's what I say.
Maw January 09, 2017 at 22:36 #45667
Personally, I think the layout is very bland, and there is also a lot of unused space. Granted, it does look a lot better on Mobile, but I usually use Desktop when writing on forums. Wouldn't mind user profile pics being bigger either, but all that is just my 2 cents.

I also miss the approval or disapproval ratings.

Also where is 180 Proof?
Erik January 10, 2017 at 06:59 #45719
Welcome. Would be awesome to get 180 Proof and Landru Guide Us over here.
_db January 10, 2017 at 07:52 #45726
Quoting Erik
180 Proof


Quoting Maw
Also where is 180 Proof?


I think 180 Proof showed up briefly but didn't return. Not sure why though.
Baden January 10, 2017 at 08:22 #45728
@180 Proof, @Landru Guide Us, and @Paul are members but not active. BusyCuttingCrap is another notable absence. (I think he's the member @busy but no posts there.)
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 10:33 #45733
Quoting Maw
I also miss the approval or disapproval ratings.

Why so? Philosophy isn't about what folks like, it's about what is true. Approval and disapproval ratings were misused and became popularity contests, hence why we voted against them here.
Saphsin January 10, 2017 at 12:34 #45737
The approval/disapproval ratings was nice sport when you agreed with someone on one side of the debate, so I understand why you miss it. It also feels nice when intelligent people agree with what you say (and disagree with your opponent) But admittingly, its as Agustino says.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 13:06 #45740
Quoting Maw
Personally, I think the layout is very bland, and there is also a lot of unused space.


In my opinion, to say the design is bland is largely a misguided criticism with regard to a web design that exists to optimize the reading of text. And there is no such thing as unused space in a web design, but certain people may, for whatever reason, prefer all or most of the screen space to be filled. This is quite an unusual preference in my experience, aside from clients who want to stuff everything "above the fold". One major problem with the old design was that you had to scan a long way across the screen to read; the importance of limiting line length/characters per line has been recognized for a long time by typographers.

I'm not being defensive: it's not my design and there are several things I would change about it. But when people say they dislike a design it's now second-nature for me as a web developer to find out if there is anything of substance in the complaint so that I can see if I can do something about it, or if it's just people moaning about something unfamiliar or expressing their odd tastes.

But design is a kind of engineering and is certainly not simply a matter of taste. Although we don't have much scope to change things on this software platform, I do want to know what works and doesn't work. PlushForums has been professionally designed to optimize the user-experience, but it's not perfect.

Anyway I'll get off my high horse now.

Quoting Maw
Wouldn't mind user profile pics being bigger either, but all that is just my 2 cents.


If you ever want to see a bigger version of anyone's profile image you can click on it to view the profile. And like I say, you can make everything bigger as I do by zooming in.
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 13:14 #45741
Quoting jamalrob
But when people say they dislike a design it's now second-nature for me as a web developer to find out if there is anything of substance in the complaint so that I can see if I can do something about it, or if it's just people moaning about something unfamiliar or expressing their odd tastes.

As I work largely in programming nowadays (database creation and management mostly, but also things like web-design) I know that the user ALWAYS moans about the unfamiliar and requests changes, even if those changes actually make whatever the application happens to be worse >:O (I think they think that by requesting such changes they are keeping the designer "under control" or some weird thing). It's crazy how many substandard applications I've had to make because users just want it that way, and they don't care about the rules of programming or design. I've broken almost all the rules in database creation for some folks >:O but it's their database. If they want it that way, when they want to expand it and increase its functionality it's just going to cost more :D
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 13:16 #45742
But this design isn't bad. The nav menu sticks at the top all the time, the screen is what 960-1000px wide at max (the main screen where the posts/writting goes), and the simplicity makes all the info easy to navigate and get to. But the unlearned brutes will always protest if I may be permitted to speak like this, not meaning any insult to anyone :P

Although I will grant you that just the look of this forum is incredibly easy to make. It's functionality though (the back-end) is a different story, that's quite hard.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 13:23 #45743
Reply to Agustino When I became a developer I vowed I would never become one of those guys who complained to other developers about "the users", treating them as the enemy. So I'll just acknowledge what you say while resisting the temptation to join in. :D
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 13:25 #45744
Quoting jamalrob
When I became a developer I vowed I would never become one of those guys who complained to other developers about "the users", treating them as the enemy.

I'm not complaining, I'm laughing at them ;) :P fools are useful, definitely not enemies.

Are you a developer by profession (as in are you educated in computer science with a degree) or self-taught?
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 13:33 #45747
Reply to Agustino Did some programming at university but mostly self-taught.
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 13:40 #45748
Reply to jamalrob Many of us are, same for me. It's curious how high the number of self-taught is in this profession in comparison with other professions. In my ideal world, other professions would be like IT having a lot of self-taught and independent producers. I've always wondered why we have barriers for example against self-taught lawyers. It makes no sense to me, and I think this stratification of some professions such that you need a degree and need to be affiliated with such and such a body to practice is detrimental. Degree should be replaced with exams or some other means of testing the practitioners. For example, one should be able to practice medicine if they can demonstrate the capacity to do it, even if they don't hold a medicine degree.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 13:52 #45750
Reply to Agustino It's because it's a young profession, and maybe also because nobody (usually) dies or goes to jail if things go wrong. Some people think we should be moving to full professionalization, with a professional body and mandatory qualifications. Mature professions need the educational and regulatory paraphernalia to ensure those claiming to be a certain kind of professional can actually do the job.

I want to agree with you, but what you're talking about is maybe just a different kind of professionalization anyway. To "demonstrate the capacity to do it" for the surgeon cannot just be a portfolio of past successful operations, because the next operation is the one that could expose the gaping hole in his knowledge.
Hanover January 10, 2017 at 13:59 #45751
Quoting Baden
180 Proof, Landru Guide Us, and @Paul are members but not active.

Landru was very active here for a while. I think he got tired of saying "conservative meme," so he left.

Jamal January 10, 2017 at 14:00 #45753
I saw enough evidence to suggest that Landru could never get tired of saying "conservative meme". He must be saying it somewhere else.
Michael January 10, 2017 at 14:02 #45755
Quoting jamalrob
When I became a developer I vowed I would never become one of those guys who complained to other developers about "the users", treating them as the enemy.


But that's like half of what we talk about in the office. It'd be quiet without it. Also, this is hilarious.

Quoting Agustino
Are you a developer by profession (as in are you educated in computer science with a degree) or self-taught?


Professionals are just those who get paid for it.

Quoting jamalrob
Some people think we should be moving to full professionalization, with a professional body and mandatory qualifications.


I hope not. I don't even have an IT GCSE.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 14:22 #45757
Reply to Michael Totally forgot about Clients from Hell. I used to read it all the time. And don't get me wrong: I've had some horrible clients myself, and I have complained about them very vigorously. Part of the problem might be precisely the fact that we are not professionals in the strict sense that Agustino is using; some clients think it's okay to treat web designers and developers disrespectfully, in a way that they would probably not treat their lawyer.

Quoting Michael
I hope not. I don't even have an IT GCSE.


Yes, it'll be back to school for most of us.
Agustino January 10, 2017 at 14:51 #45768
Quoting jamalrob
To "demonstrate the capacity to do it" for the surgeon cannot just be a portfolio of past successful operations, because the next operation is the one that could expose the gaping hole in his knowledge.

Yes, but then this would hold for the one having a degree as well. The thing is the degree doesn't actually help you that much. I have a degree in engineering but I learned very little about it in university and more by actually doing it. I guess I could've been an independent engineer from the very beginning, I would just have started out taking small works that I was certain I could manage and go from there, just like I started in programming. But the problem is, if I actually tried to be an independent engineer after university, I couldn't legally practice even if I took on, say, building someone's garage >:O
Baden January 10, 2017 at 14:59 #45770
Quoting jamalrob
I saw enough evidence to suggest that Landru could never get tired of saying "conservative meme". He must be saying it somewhere else.


I did a search for "conservative meme", Landru. We're first (insert celebratory emoticon here) and some place called "freerepublic.com" is second. Maybe he's over there.
Michael January 10, 2017 at 15:01 #45772
Quoting Baden
I did a search for "conservative meme", Landru. We're first (insert celebratory emoticon here) and some place called "freerepublic.com" is second. Maybe he's over there.


@jamalrob, freerepublic.com is an example of great forum design. ;)
Baden January 10, 2017 at 15:03 #45774
Reply to Michael

Less of your in-jokes! Have you found Landru yet? We'll take him dead or alive.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 15:15 #45775
Quoting Michael
jamalrob, freerepublic.com is an example of great forum design


Yikes.
Maw January 10, 2017 at 15:47 #45782
Reply to jamalrob I'm not going to get into a detailed debate over it, but the way this forum is laid out reminds me of watching a video on Youtube that was filmed vertically. Given the dimensions of my laptop, the way the commenting is laid out is simply jarring to me. I am not aware of any other forum or website that features a similar design. I was by the way, taught Design, including website Design in College.

Too bad 180 Proof and BusyCuttingCrap didn't stick around. Maybe they will come out of retirement some day.
Jamal January 10, 2017 at 15:55 #45785
Quoting Maw
I'm not going to get into a detailed debate over it,


I personally wouldn't mind, but as you haven't made any clear or detailed criticisms except for the profile pics, preferring just to express your dislike, I guess that's that.
jorndoe January 10, 2017 at 18:36 #45808
Yeah, took ya' long enough, @Maw.
:D
Maw January 10, 2017 at 20:24 #45816
Reply to jorndoe Better late than never ;)