The US role as the world's policeman is a burden. And if you look at the statistics, there are only around 1000 arrest related deaths per year - from over 10 million arrests. That's 0.01% of arrests in a country where there's a right to bear arms. Personally, I think that indicates extraordinary professionalism. You should maybe unplug from the BLM, PC, neo marxist network of post modern self hatred.
Yeah, the burden of too much oil and strategic control of world resources. And considering the US operates the world's largest gulag system, the issue of state santioned extrajudicial murder is the least of its problems.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 01, 2021 at 17:34#5598100 likes
you have a weird idea of morality. Should I care about redeeming qualities of Rumsfeld in his personal life when I have no personal relationship with him? I think not. And it's not as if whatever he does privately lessens the horrors he's caused to others.
This is not the first time we have diverted in my "ideas of morality" over the decades and I doubt it will be the last.
I again am trying to separate a man's career and his personal character.
Not everyone agrees with me and that's okay.
Another example is Bill Cosby.
I fucking love his professional work from his early days on stage, his TV career and the books he has written.
Am I dismissing what happened in his personal life?
Not a chance.
Do you see a difference between the two?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 01, 2021 at 17:41#5598140 likes
Yeah, the burden of too much oil and strategic control of world resources. And considering the US operates the world's largest gulag system, the issue of state santioned extrajudicial murder is the least of it's problems.
You think it was about oil? Maybe back in the 1970's, with OPEC and the energy crisis; but not since then - has any such motive existed. Advances in deep sea drilling technology, to say nothing of fracking, has largely overcome dependence on the middle east as a sole energy source.
I can't decipher the rest of your post. It doesn't seem to make sense. Gulags are a Communist thing - as is state sanctioned extra judicial murder. Particularly of journalists!
As we be careful not to judge a person on their worst action alone but rather a totality of their actions.
First off, I don't judge Rumsfeld as a person at all. I do judge him as a Secretary of Defense - very bad. War criminal? Maybe. I take no pleasure in his death, but if we're going to stop the next guys in line from doing something similar, we can't forget what he, Bush, and all the rest did and the consequences of those actions.
I remind myself that there are chapters of my life that I am not very proud of and I am trying to extend that grace to him as well.
Ok but did you ever repeatedly lie about WMD's in Iraq in order to justify an illegal war that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's? Did you ever sign a torture memo authorizing "20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing, the use of phobias, and stress positions for up to 4 hours." (he wanted up to 8 hours).
But Saddam Hussein had to go. He had an eight year war with Iran costing a million lives, and as soon as the international community stopped that conflict, he invaded Kuwait. Ten years of sanctions failed to bring down the regime, and there was credible evidence he had chemical weapons. Not least, his use of chemical weapons against Iran:
No, Saddam Hussein did not have to go. The world is full of dictators. It's not our job to get rid of them all. It's not in our national interest. It will just make things worse, as we have seen many times.
Instead what happened is that when Saddam was removed, the Iraqi people went mad, turned on each other, and the US stayed in an attempt to contain the conflict - getting drawn in to the fustercluck the middle east has become. If the Iraqi people had organised elections rather than ransacking museums, the mission would have been accomplished in two weeks.
This is how it always is. If you destroy an existing political system, especially a dictatorship, really, really bad things will happen. All the tyrannical controls that held opposing interests and ethnic hatreds at bay dissolve and everything goes to shit. Think Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia. That's why you don't start wars unless you have no other choice.
Both the Gene Wilder "Willy Wonka" and "the Wizard of Oz" are mainstream fantasy movies based on famous books. Not weird at all. And they are both wonderful films. They used to show the WoO every year on TV and it was a big event. Everyone watched it together. I remember the first time I saw it on a color TV. Dorothy and Toto came out of the wrecked house into Munchkin Land and...holy crap!! We always loved it in black and white. Seeing it in color was shocking. I bet the people in theaters in 1939 were blown away.
Now then, the Johnny Depp version of WW was...not weird, creepy.
No, Saddam Hussein did not have to go. The world is full of dictators. It's not our job to get rid of them all. It's not in our national interest. It will just make things worse, as we have seen many times. This is how it always is. If you destroy an existing political system, especially a dictatorship, really, really bad things will happen. All the tyrannical controls that held opposing interests and ethnic hatreds at bay dissolve and everything goes to shit. Think Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia. That's why you don't start wars unless you have no other choice.
What was the other choice? Continue with sanctions hurting the Iraqi people, while Saddam sold oil on the black market to keep his brutal regime in power, and let him play the hokey-cokey on weapons inspections forever, or until he invaded another neighbouring country? That's not an alternative.
Of course it is, although, as you noted, the sanctions were not effective. We probably should have gotten rid of those too. As everyone knows, Iraq was not pursuing weapons that would threaten the US. Countries in the Middle East warring with each other is not necessarily a national security threat worth of going to war for, and, as we found out, it definitely wasn't.
Reply to counterpunchReply to T Clark I've maintained that our invasion of Iraq was a bad idea because we did not have social, political, cultural, military, or any other kind of expertise to solve Iraq's problems. We were only able to smash the existing state. Once we finished with that part, we were out of ideas. Had careful consideration been given to gaining an understanding of Iraq, a plan for reconstruction might have been devised.
On other occasions we have exhibited more competence. For instance, after WWII, we successfully helped Germany and Japan put themselves back together. The various programs we launched seemed to have worked fairly well at reaching the intended goal. That was easy, compared to rebuilding Iraq, Syria, or any other mid-eastern nation.
I don't think any other country has this expertise either.
Iv'e maintained that our invasion of Iraq was a bad idea because we did not have social, political, cultural, military, or any other kind of expertise to solve Iraq's problems.
The problem with this kind of analysis is to assume that the US ever had even the slightest intention of solving Iraq's problems, as opposed to using it as nothing but a milking bag for extractive purposes on behalf of the US's corporate clientele. That Iraq has people living there, in whatever state of existence, is an incidental issue.
I don't even think it need be seen as spiritual. Respect for the dead is simply humane, or human. It's in all cultures and expresses the basic thought that people are more than meat and bones, which is true.
Teenage radicals, fascists, and fanatics are wont to trash this tradition. That's just the way they are.
Reply to StreetlightX It is not at all clear to me that American firms extracting oil from Iraq was the primary purpose of the invasion. Many oil companies from around the world are involve in Iraq's oil extraction -- some pumping a lot more than others. 2,000,000 barrels are exported to India, China, and Korea. Europe; consumes about 600,000 barrels per day, and the US receives about 500,000 barrels per day.
The glib answer is that the war in Iraq was for the US to get their oil. I don't think so. We certainly were not there out of the goodness of our hearts, but damned if I can see a good reason for us invading Iraq. "The Tail Wagging the Dog" seems as good an explanation as any. So the Bush administration had a war to prove their commitment to fight terrorism. Same thing in Afghanistan. Now that we are leaving, the pointlessness of that effort will soon be made manifest.
In the 1940s the US established a central policy objective of always controlling Middle Eastern oil. We have consistently followed that policy in as much as it was possible. There are limits, however, as Iran proved.
I don't know for sure what the future of oil production will be. It will take a quite a long time to get from peak oil to exhausting the supply of oil that can be obtained for less energy than the oil contains--probaby 80 years, or so (off the cuff figure). Global warming should change the game. It should shut the game down, but I doubt if it will (which means bad news for the ongoing climate crisis).
I don't think any other country has this expertise either.
The politically correct argument suggests that the concept of 'country' was the problem; that creating Iraq cut across tribal migration routes - and imposed an unnatural order that could only be maintained by state oppression. But if you search for 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - they are apparently using oil wealth for construction and development, and seemingly headed for modernism and secularism, stable nationhood, and joining the international community.
Saddam Hussein ceased power in 1979 - and it's all downhill from there. He used oil wealth for military ends, and prosecuted territorial disputes with neighbouring countries including Iran, Syria and Kuwait.
The left think it's always our fault, but we built the oil industry at great cost, and left this hugely profitable industry in the hands of the Iraqi state. There was good reason to imagine - that removing Saddam Hussein would see a return to the modern secular normality of the 1970's. The argument Clark makes:
All the tyrannical controls that held opposing interests and ethnic hatreds at bay dissolve and everything goes to shit.
....is wrong. Google 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - and see for yourself that Saddam's tyrannical regime was not necessary to supress tribalism, and seething ethnic hatreds at all. I'm so sick of this politically correct self recrimination.
The argument Clark makes ... is wrong. Google 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - and see for yourself that Saddam's tyrannical regime was not necessary to suppress tribalism, and seething ethnic hatreds at all. I'm so sick of this politically correct self recrimination.
This.
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
Of course it is, although, as you noted, the sanctions were not effective. We probably should have gotten rid of those too. As everyone knows, Iraq was not pursuing weapons that would threaten the US. Countries in the Middle East warring with each other is not necessarily a national security threat worth of going to war for, and, as we found out, it definitely wasn't.
35 countries disagreed with your 20/20 hindsight view, and thought the removal of Saddam Hussein was necessary. These include countries in the region, that certainly were threatened by Saddam's possession - and use of chemical weapons.
Chemical weapons were employed by Iraqi forces against Iranian combatants and non-combatants during the Iran–Iraq war (1980–1988). These have been classified based on chemical composition and casualty-producing effects.
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
35 countries disagreed with your 20/20 hindsight view, and thought the removal of Saddam Hussein was necessary. These include countries in the region, that certainly were threatened by Saddam's possession - and use of chemical weapons.
Which 35 countries? Those that were part of the multi-national force? No countries in the region were part of that. And I'd argue that 35 countries disagreed for political reasons while mass demonstrations in at least every European country made rather clear what people actually thought : they believed Hans Blix.
So everyone already knew but... politics happened.
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
Well, those ethnic differences certainly were politically expedient. And correct me if I'm wrong but the republics were formed along historic and ethnic lines. We had Kosovar Albanians clamoring for their own republic since the 80s but an autonomous province in Serbia, and votes by that province going against the interest os Serbia. So Serbian nationalists weren't happy either. Then Tito died and economic shit happened and that powder keg exploded but to suggest ethnic differences/nationalism didn't play a role seems misplaced.
The same really where it concerns Iraq. Iraq modern? Maybe what you saw on the streets of Baghdad and in the way people dressed. Meanwhile it was still a military dictatorship even before Saddam (since 1958) and ruled by a king since 1932. The Ba'ath party developed specific policies to deal with the power of tribal shaykhs. Tribalism was a real thing then and it is to this day. That is not to say that we should committ a single cause fallacy and claim that they are the primary source of conflict when Saddam dissappeared but a power vacuum when interests aren't aligned and split across ethnic/tribal lines isn't going to help.
It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
[quote=Hobbes]No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.[/quote]
Thus the facile, cynical and condescending, and above all old-fashioned Hobbes on the failed state. And you provide a couple of supporting examples, to which one can add Somalia, and other parts of Africa in recent history. It seems obvious that if one removes a government, one ought to see urgently to a replacement.
See also https://thediplomat.com/2013/12/why-chinese-study-the-warring-states-period/
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
I think it was also the view of Mubarak. What happened in Iraq post invasion wasn't just an eruption of pent up violence, though. The US fostered sectarian conflict by their gross mismanagement.
I don't think any other country has this expertise either.
I agree with much of what you say, but I think the war would have been wrong even if we did have the expertise you discuss and, more important, the will to use it.
The problem with this kind of analysis is to assume that the US ever had even the slightest intention of solving Iraq's problems, as opposed to using it as nothing but a milking bag for extractive purposes on behalf of the US's corporate clientele.
As they say, there's no need to infer ill-will when stupidity, ignorance, and arrogance provide an adequate explanation.
The glib answer is that the war in Iraq was for the US to get their oil. I don't think so. We certainly were not there out of the goodness of our hearts, but damned if I can see a good reason for us invading Iraq. "The Tail Wagging the Dog" seems as good an explanation as any. So the Bush administration had a war to prove their commitment to fight terrorism. Same thing in Afghanistan. Now that we are leaving, the pointlessness of that effort will soon be made manifest.
Yes. I think this provides the best explanation of how we stepped in the Iraq dog do. Dog doo? Dog due? Dog dew? Dog d'oh.
In the 1940s the US established a central policy objective of always controlling Middle Eastern oil. We have consistently followed that policy in as much as it was possible. There are limits, however, as Iran proved.
I don't know if this policy ever made sense, but it certainly doesn't an longer.
The politically correct argument suggests that the concept of 'country' was the problem; that creating Iraq cut across tribal migration routes - and imposed an unnatural order that could only be maintained by state oppression. But if you search for 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - they are apparently using oil wealth for construction and development, and seemingly headed for modernism and secularism, stable nationhood, and joining the international community.
No matter how wonderful and nice Iraq was before Hussein and no matter how terrible it was afterwards, it's just none of our damned business.
....is wrong. Google 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - and see for yourself that Saddam's tyrannical regime was not necessary to supress tribalism, and seething ethnic hatreds at all. I'm so sick of this politically correct self recrimination.
It's not politically correct at all. It is at odds with the US policy from the end of World War 2 till now. But, yes, it is self-recrimination. Justified self-recrimination. US actions in Iraq destabilized the whole region, drove millions of refugees into European, and damaged our national security. Proponents of American exceptionalism like you have harmed this country for decades.
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
I don't see that it's cynical or condescending at all. If it's facile, explain the more nuanced view you prefer. Much of the history of the world is made up of wars started by emperors and colonialists trying to take kingdoms and tribes that have been killing each other for centuries, millennia, and jam them together inside artificial boundaries. When you take off the constraints, things tend to get ugly.
As they say, there's no need to infer ill-will when stupidity, ignorance, and arrogance provide an adequate explanation.
That would be naive and blind to the facts. The ill will involved on behalf of the US was codified, illegal, and monstrous:
[quote=Wendy Brown, Undoing The Demos]In 2003, months after Saddam Hussein was toppled, Paul Bremer, the American-appointed head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, declared Iraq “open for business” and spelled out a set of 100 orders that came to be known as the Bremer Orders. These mandated selling off several hundred state-run enterprises, permitting full ownership rights of Iraqi businesses by foreign firms and full repatriation of profits to foreign firms, opening Iraq’s banks to foreign ownership and control, and eliminating tariffs — in short, making Iraq a new playground of world finance and investment. At the same time, the Bremer Orders restricted labor and throttled back public goods and services. They outlawed strikes and eliminated the right to unionize in most sectors, mandated a regressive f lat tax on income, lowered the corporate rate to a flat 15 percent, and eliminated taxes on profits repatriated to foreign-owned businesses.
Many of these orders were in violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions concerning war, occupation, and international relations, which mandate that an occupying power must guard, rather than sell off the assets of the occupied country. But if illegal under international law, the orders could be implemented by a sovereign Iraqi government. To that end, an interim government was appointed by the United States in late 2003 and was pressed to ratify the orders when it was pronounced “sovereign” in 2004. And lest future elected governments not be so pliable, one order declares that no elected Iraqi government will have the power to alter them. The Bremer Orders and the U.S.-dominated state under construction that ratified and executed them obviously exemplify a host of neoliberal features: the use of a calamity (“shock doctrine”) to impose neoliberal reforms; the elimination of public ownership and welfare; the reduction of taxes and tariffs; the extensive use of the state to structure market competition through inequality; the breakup of labor and popular solidarities; the creation of ideal conditions for global finance and investment capital.
...Bremer Order 81, the “Patent, Industrial Design, Undisclosed Information, Integrated Circuits and Plant Variety Law,” includes a prohibition against “the re-use of crop seeds of protected varieties.” Why a law against seed saving and reuse? ... Prohibited from saving seeds of protected varieties, Iraqi farmers are now permanently bound to their foreign dealers, whose seed is ubiquitous in their fields, intermixed with all the heritage seed. Organic, diversified, low-cost, ecologically sustainable wheat production in Iraq is finished. ... in addition to making Iraqi farmers dependent on giant corporations whose seeds, licensing, and chemicals they must now purchase annually (and for which state subsidies are available, while other farm subsidies were eliminated), they were being transformed from multicrop local food providers into monocrop participants in global import-export markets. Today, Iraqi farmers generate profits for Monsanto by supplying pasta to Texas school cafeterias, while Iraq has become an importer of staples formerly grown on its own soil.[/quote]
This kind of shit, which barely scratches the surface - it doesn't even talk about oil - is not an 'oopise'. It is malicious corporate ratbagging carried out under the express domination of US military power. The US the most ratfucking deliberately evil country on the planet, and people need to get that into their head as a fact no less unambigious than the that the sun is hot.
35 countries disagreed with your 20/20 hindsight view, and thought the removal of Saddam Hussein was necessary. These include countries in the region, that certainly were threatened by Saddam's possession - and use of chemical weapons.
Baloney. The US browbeat our allies into grudgingly going along with our shenanigans. How many of those 35 countries do you think still supported the US's policy when millions of refugees stormed into Europe?
Reply to T Clark As would anyone who understands that it is the most prolific exporter of world misery there has ever been. But good to see you ignore the point of the post re:Iraq, I guess.
As would anyone who understands that it is the most prolific exporter of world misery there has ever been.
The foundations of much (most?) of the trouble we see in the world today were built by the actions of colonial nations in the 18th and 19th centuries and communist regimes in the 20th. No, I don't claim that the US doesn't share responsibility.
Reply to T Clark Why stop there? Why not go back to the stone age and claim that the 'foundations' involved the first bloke to knock over another bloke with a bone? In any case, anyone with a modicum of historical sense would know that the US took this 'foundation' and ran with it to scales unprecedented in global history, to ends far more murderous than anything that ever came before.
In any case, anyone with a medioum of historical sense would know that the US took this 'foundation' and ran with it to scales unprecedented in global history, to ends far more murderous than anything that ever came before.
More murderous than WW1, WW2, the 100 Years War, the 30 Years War, the Mongol invasions, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the Khmer Rouge, the Islamic invasion of Europe, the European colonialization of Africa, the European colonialization of the western hemisphere, the European colonialization of Asia....?
Let me explain to you the rules of this game w/Streetlight before you get further involved (coming from a veteran player):
-Good deeds or positive ideas originating from a country don't count for anything; we are only talking about bad things here. Bad deeds only accumulate and are never expunged or mitigated regardless of time period. If something was decent by the standards of 1900 it is still to be judged by the most exacting standards of today.
-The standard here is perfection and any way that country falls short of that counts as oppression and evil by that country.
-It doesn't matter whether something was done by a country 10, 100 or 300 years ago it is still that country doing evil.
-It doesn't matter whether the evil was done by the President, generals, soldiers, ministries or proxies -it is all the fault of that country.
-Other countries bad deeds are off topic, we are only talking about this country.
Reply to BitconnectCarlos You're missing the most important rule. The more powerful the country/institution/person/actor, the worse it ought to be judged.
Let me explain to you the rules of this game w/Streetlight before you get further involved (coming from a veteran player):
Still wanna play?
Ah, yes. One of my favorite passive-aggressive gambits. [s]Insult[/s] Criticize someone in a comment to a different poster. When the person criticized responds, you can say "Oh...I wasn't talking to you."
I would never pull the "I wasn't talking to you" line with Streetlight, especially in an instance where I directly referenced him. I might give him a little snark in my response, but he's always welcome to address my points.
Reply to T Clark Perspective? You're the one that thought to compare a single country to genocidal acts carried out by entire continents. Which is an apt comparison, so I don't begrudge you that.
wow are you condemning me? You know that condemnation creates idealism, right? When you hate the world, you're refusing to accept it as it is. Sounds like you're fixated on an inner vision of beauty. Sorry I can't meet that standard for you. :roll:
Oompa loompa doompety doo
I've got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
What do you get when you condemn others
Berating as much as a Streetlight bash
What are you at, getting terribly idealistic
What do you think will come of that
I don't like the look of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you're not a dumbshit, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Reply to T Clark True enough. Nice governments don't just up and invade other countries, whether they know what they are doing or not, and prudent governments are much more cautious about sending the bull into the china shop. [cue the New Yorker cartoon of a bull purchasing a tea cup in a china shop]
In the case of Iraq, we waged a very destructive war (well, war generally is destructive--that's the point of it) for domestic and world consumption -- the "shock and awe" of it all. Contrary to the "get the oil fields for Big Oil", the primary beneficiaries were arms manufacturers and the political / military / industrial elite. And all sorts of peasant regimes received fresh coverage of just what falling into the Eagle's Talons might be like. So Don't get too uppity.
Another angle: Military planners appreciate the opportunity to practice with new materials and methods. Smart bombs, remotely operated drones, urban warfare (been a while since we had a live urban practice field), and so on. The number of American fatalities was quite tolerable.
The world's senior military power (like the US, USSR, China, and a long list of former powers) is going to project their nation's INTERESTS. As someone observed, "Nations don't have friends. They have interests." Not your interest, or my interest, or any other peasant's interest.
So, we peaceniks make a new round of signs, protest, write angry letters, plead the case of peace, lament the suffering of the victims, and the war, and the world, goes on as planned.
I don't know if this policy ever made sense, but it certainly doesn't an longer.
Of course it made sense from the senior military POV. Oil was already, and would be even more critical to economic development. Our government wanted to make sure that it would always have access to every drop of oil it wanted/needed, and could deny anyone else that oil. That is still true.
WWII was at least largely about the Axis powers getting access to oil, rubber, and minerals.
Now that the Senior Military Powers are past peak oil and slightly worried about global warming (and making plans for wind, solar, and continued use of fossil fuel) the pressure on US supplies might be easing a bit. Venezuela is close by, and they have the world's largest oil reserve, bigger than Saudi Arabia. Plus, we have not used up all our oil yet, and there is still the Middle East.
So yes it still matters. Maybe somewhat less critically, but if we want to maintain hegemony, it is in our interests to continue to control as many essential resources as we can. Other Senior Powers look at things the same way, Do you think our lives would be better if China, Russia, India and/or an Islamic state of some sort were running the world? I do not think so.
@Streetlight, some people think America behaves in an especially terrible manner. No, the American establishment just behaves the way nations do that are on top. King of the Hill is not a polite parlor game.
Oompa loompa doompety doo
I’ve got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you’ll listen to me
Why do you try to talk politics?
Parading your posts like an elephant's dick
What are you at, you sad little twat?
What do you think will come of that?
I don't like the look of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you shut your trap, you may go far
Or read a fucking book you ignorant mutt
Else you can kiss this Oompah loompa doompa
Doompety's butt!
In the case of Iraq, we waged a very destructive war (well, war generally is destructive--that's the point of it) for domestic and world consumption -- the "shock and awe" of it all. Contrary to the "get the oil fields for Big Oil", the primary beneficiaries were arms manufacturers and the political / military / industrial elite. And all sorts of peasant regimes received fresh coverage of just what falling into the Eagle's Talons might be like. So Don't get too uppity.
Whoever the "beneficiaries" were, I think the war was started primary for ideological and nationalistic reasons. When something bad happens to the US, the US does something bad to someone else.
So yes it still matters. Maybe somewhat less critically, but if we want to maintain hegemony, it is in our interests to continue to control as many essential resources as we can. Other Senior Powers look at things the same way, Do you think our lives would be better if China, Russia, India and/or an Islamic state of some sort were running the world? I do not think so.
I think there are other choices than US hegemony or China, Russia, and India running the world. Actually, I don't think either of those choices is even possible any more. Economic and political power is spread around a lot more than it was previously. Who do you think runs the world now? We certainly don't and we never have. We wanted to. What could possibly have gone wrong?
What do you get when you condemn others
Berating as much as a Streetlight bash
What are you at, getting terribly idealistic
What do you think will come of that
I don't like the look of it
I think there are other choices than US hegemony or China, Russia, and India running the world. Actually, I don't think either of those choices is even possible any more.
Oh... Yes, I think it is still possible. Most of the world's countries (outside of a small circle of friends and enemies) are in no position to 'run the world'. United we stand! Like the UN? League of Nations? China is definitely in a position to apply for the top spot. US? Probably on the way down, BUT it's a long ways down and a slow process.
Economic and political power is spread around a lot more than it was previously. Who do you think runs the world now? We certainly don't and we never have. We wanted to. What could possibly have gone wrong?
We didn't run the world? Oh, come now. Of course we ran the world--not unopposed; not without some major slip-ups; not without some road salt being rubbed into other peoples' wounds, etc. Before us, it was the British Empire. "Running the world" just means that you can arrange things to suit your convenience. China will do exactly the same thing.
BTW, is not economic political power being "spread around" the very thing that make it possible for a country with concentrated power to run things? If Brazil, India, South Africa, Japan, Germany, France, and China were all politically and economically very powerful, it might be much more difficult to run things. Also, it helps to have a military backbone to support one's economic and political power.
When something bad happens to the US, the US does something bad to someone else.
True. This is a long established pattern in human affairs: If I stub my figurative political toe, somebody is going to pay for it. Doesn't matter that you had nothing to do with it, or the dog or the cat. Clearly, I am not going to sock the Mafia designated killer in the nose to avenge my toe, so... I guess it will be somebody I can safely beat the crap out of. Like Iraq.
Not what Jesus taught, but Jesus wasn't teaching REAL POLITIC.
We didn't run the world? Oh, come now. Of course we ran the world--not unopposed; not without some major slip-ups; not without some road salt being rubbed into other peoples' wounds, etc. Before us, it was the British Empire. "Running the world" just means that you can arrange things to suit your convenience. China will do exactly the same thing.
I think you're probably wrong, but one of the very minor advantages of being old is that we won't have to be around to worry about it. That also makes it easy to pretend I'm sure of what will happen. No one will ever tell me "I told you so."
Oompa loompa doompety doo
I've got another lesson for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
What do you get when you take a shit
Leave it for a week in an open air pit
What is the smell that your nose would be laden
Surely it could only be horribly Baden
I don't like the smell of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you don’t smell Baden, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Doompety do
I won't necessarily prove you wrong. I liked the band and the song, although I'm not familiar with either. Bands from Australia didn't have a big presence in the US in the early 70s. Still, I'll put this in as a really good rock song recording, whether or not it's the greatest.
I think you're probably wrong, but one of the VERY MINOR ADVANTAGES of being old is that we won't have to be around to worry about it.
I might be wrong, but no body cares what we old farts think anyway, so fuck 'em. It's not such a minor advantage being old. I definitely look forward to getting the hell off this blighted terrestrial ball before the largest hunks of shit hit the fan. Whop, whop, whop. Young people will get covered up close and personal.
If I live as long as my father, I have another 26 years to go--2047. That's too long; it's too close to the arrival of unbearable wet bulb conditions. The "wet bulb" is a thermometer covered by a wet cloth having a fan blowing on it. At 95º in the shade with high humidity, animals (and people) cannot cool off. They start getting hotter and hotter. As they gain heat, they start dying from heat stroke.
95º and above with low humidity is tolerable, however. So get back Into the fields and pick those tomatoes before they are spoiled!
Lots of people are going to die from heat buildup in their bodies. Of course, if they happen to be sitting in a cool air conditioned house, no problem.
Food scarcity, water shortages, air pollution, fires, drought, insect infestations, new diseases, economic collapse--it will be a captivating news event of the first order. Bigger than 9/11.
The young are already blaming us old folk for their dismal future. Well, children, it was some of us baby boomers who got interested in the environment in the first place back in the 60s, and were anti-capitalists. Earth Day and all that. Children: Always blame the rich, and shake them down for every penny they have got. We old hippies, after all, never had a pot to piss in. He who robs us walks away with empty bags. But Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are loaded. And Elon Musk. Just wring the ash out of their hides.
Reply to T Clark Besides which, Australians have absolutely no business pretending to be cultural critics. When it comes to culture, they generally don't know shit from shinola.
If I live as long as my father, I have another 26 years to go--2047.
It's very unlikely I'll live that long. My family tends to die in their 70s. Keep in mind - according to Ray Kurzweil, 2045 is the year of the technological singularity, when we all will either be uploaded into the cloud for eternal life or destroyed by our machine overlords. So, if you make it, you've got that to look forward to.
We old hippies, after all, never had a pot to piss in. He who robs us walks away with empty bags. But Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are loaded. And Elon Musk. Just wring the ash out of their hides.
Reply to Noble Dust Not bad. Bonham hit harder. It's too long, the riff predictable, the wah wah peddle a bit naf. But the thing that counts most against it is the pretence to philosophical depth. Good rock is shallow.
i was sort of joking anyway, but that track is all about the drums. The riff, weird bass line, and barely perceptible tempo retard starting at 7:18 is one of my favorite moments in all of music, and I listen to way too much music across most genres. Tool is certainly not for everyone though.
Also I'm pretty sure this song is about tripping balls, rather any particular philosophical concept...
transitioning between 5/4 and 6/8... or something...
Nah you nailed it. I've always been a Zep fan, but I think I might be from a younger generation than you, so it's just different strokes...plus they sort of stole riffs from other bands in the early days...
Actually, this is hands down my favorite rock band. If you want interplay between instruments, joy, odd time signatures...once again an acquired taste, I fear...
Reply to Noble Dust Interesting, but again too complex. It's sort of a prog rock - metal fusion to my ear, and needs too much thinking to enjoy; compared to the clean simplicity of Eagle Rock... of course when the mood takes me I am happy to listen to Peter Gabriel or Yes; but not for long.
I feel like I'm agreeing with you about everything and you're disagreeing with me about everything. :razz: I love Leadbelly too. Skip James is probably my favorite blues master.
As a musician myself, what I love about music is that there's no rules. Rock can be thinking music, and even classical can be heavy metal; ever listen to The Rite of Spring?
I think my favorite practitioner of rhythmic alchemy is Steve Reich; he doesn't purposely use odd times or weird structures to catch your attention, he just slowly, methodically builds rhythmic monoliths. It's spiritual stuff.
I am so fed up with various people going on about the "debate' between Proof and Amen in various threads, and creating links to it over and over again. I see it as old news and I think that it is ruining some current thread discussions.
I won't claim that title for myself, but I do dabble in guitar and sometimes bass. This morning I was trying to get the bass drone to run smoothly in Eagle Rock, and just can't get it right. My thumb keeps putting in an extra beat.
No matter how wonderful and nice Iraq was before Hussein and no matter how terrible it was afterwards, it's just none of our damned business.
If you acknowledge that Iraq was looking like a modern secular state in the 1970's, before Saddam took power then the argument you made - that Saddam's oppression was necessary to keep tribal and ethnic hatreds supressed, is clearly false.
It's not politically correct at all. It is at odds with the US policy from the end of World War 2 till now. But, yes, it is self-recrimination. Justified self-recrimination. US actions in Iraq destabilized the whole region, drove millions of refugees into European, and damaged our national security. Proponents of American exceptionalism like you have harmed this country for decades.
That's incorrect. The UN security council passed 16 resolutions on Iraq - culminating in resolution 1441 offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in previous resolutions 660, 661, 678, 686, 687, 688, 707, 715, 986, and 1284.
In fact, 36 'coalition forces' countries deployed troops in Iraq after 2003, including countries from the region.
Also, numerous UN resolutions were unanimously adopted, including resolution 1441.
I'm just saying, blame the mad dictator, oppressing his own people and invading his neighbours - rather than those who spent blood and treasure to stop him.
Yeah, well, that's about you, not about Eagle Rock. Shows to go you not to listen to Hanover...
This, for sure.
Your song is something uniquely Australian that I don't get. It's bluesy rock light dance music with a doo wap throw back feel where the crowd looks put up wet, like a grateful dead crowd. The sort of song they'd play at a stadium to get the crowd going for those in the know, with the rest wondering wtf.
Saddam's oppression was necessary to keep tribal and ethnic hatreds supressed, is clearly false.
I don't think it's "clearly false," but that wasn't my point. The situation, including in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Europe, and the US, is much worse than it was before the war. The US should have known it would happen.
That's incorrect. The UN security council passed 16 resolutions on Iraq - culminating in resolution 1441 offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in previous resolutions 660, 661, 678, 686, 687, 688, 707, 715, 986, and 1284.
I don't understand what this has to do with the text from my post you quoted.
Reply to counterpunch I'll remind you that in my first post I already referred to the multi national force, so I'm quite aware. Are you referring to the token forces from Armenia (46), Kazachstan (290) and Azerbaijan (150)?Which is as close to the region I can get but those aren't considered part of the Middle Easr. They're also bit players and the MNF was post invasion to begin with. So all in all the point remains that there was barely any support for the invasion in Iraq to oust Saddam and that everybody who paid attention at the time knew it was bullshit.
Reply to Benkei Resolution 1441 was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council. What do you think "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" means? Saddam had plenty of warnings - and he chose to ignore them. Why are you not blaming the brutal dictator who oppressed his own people, invaded his neighbours, and mocked the international community? Before you go on, remember, he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, and against the Iraqi Kurds.
Resolution 1441 was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council. What do you think "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" means? Saddam had plenty of warnings - and he chose to ignore them. Why are you not blaming the brutal dictator who oppressed his own people, invaded his neighbours, and mocked the international community? Before you go on, remember, he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, and against the Iraqi Kurds.
This is first and foremost a red herring, whatever we can say about Saddam has no bearing on the fact the war in Iraq was illegal and started on a lie and except for those living under a rock at the time, everyone knew it was a lie.
The legality of the war on the basis of SCR 1441 is shared by almost no one. It's about as compelling as denying climate change. Totally misplaced. That resolution was about requiring Iraq to cooperate with Unmovic under Hans Blix, which Iraq more or less did. Hans Blix said no WMD, the US lied and started an illegal and badly prepared war with no exit strategy in place causing untold suffering for Iraqi civilians as a consequence and more US casualties than were killed by 9/11. Talk about the cure being worse than the disease.
When the US went to war, it had almost no support for the invasion (UK, Australia, Poland, the Netherlands) because most Europeans realised it was a lie and except for the UK, and paucity Australia, no country accepted the argument 1441 was sufficient grounds to go to war. Only a few governments offered support, sometimes going against popular opinion in their own countries or ignoring a deep split on the subject.
[quote="Benkei;560935"t]he fact the war in Iraq was illegal and started on a lie[/quote]
Lie? Yes, absolutely. Illegal? Interesting concept. War is one of those things that if you can pull it off and you win, then legality won't matter a whole lot. "Treaties are just pieces of paper" somebody famous said about invading Belgium and Netherlands. It also won't matter if your invaded country is ruined in the process (Iraq). The International Court may find for Humpty Dumpty, but he's still not put back together.
Legality only matters in war if you invade, behave badly there, and then lose. And even if the US invaded, behaved badly, and then lost -- who has the jail to put us in?
I understand that there are international conventions specifying what is allowable and not allowable in warfare. It just that, if "the policeman of the world" is violating the rules, who ya gonna call?
This is the problem with splendid conventions and declarations--like the Declaration of Human Rights. They are only enforceable if the various major powers want to enforce them. That might be highly inconvenient for some or all of the major powers -- who might themselves be violating this Declaration or that Charter.
The considerable inconvenience of being arrested and tried by the International Criminal Court in the Hague is one of the reasons the US did not sign on to the ICC.
This is first and foremost a red herring, whatever we can say about Saddam has no bearing on the fact the war in Iraq was illegal and started on a lie and except for those living under a rock at the time, everyone knew it was a lie.
What lie? Are you saying Iraq didn't have chemical weapons? Because they were used by Saddam in the Iran Iraq War, and against Kurdish military and civilian targets. This is a fact I've mentioned previously. Please take it on board.
The legality of the war on the basis of SCR 1441 is shared by almost no one.
Implicit authorisation comes from the fact 1441 is couched in the form of an ultimatum. But having said that, the US doesn't conduct its foreign policy through the UN. The President of the US has the constitutional authority to declare war, and so, to talk of illegality is facile.
Again, what lie? And how do you know what they were thinking? You don't. Your argument is epistemically wrong. You project backwards - from the unfortunate fact it ultimately went very badly, to infer improper motives, and assign blame. If Saddam had been removed, and the Iraqi people had organised elections - rather than starting a civil war - Iraq would have been back on track to become a modern peaceful state, and you wouldn't complain that the war was illegal.
If Saddam had been removed, and the Iraqi people had organised elections - rather than starting a civil war - Iraq would have been back on track to become a modern peaceful state,
[irony]Yes, those naughty Iraqis. It's all their fault. If only they'd behaved like we wanted them to, everything would have been fine. It's not our fault."[/irony]
Yes, those naughty Iraqis. It's all their fault. If only they'd behaved like we wanted them to, everything would have been fine. It's not our fault."
It's a matter of fact that the Iraqi people went nuts - and precipitated a descent into chaos. And don't tell me, that's why we should tolerate brutal dictators playing with chemical and biological weapons - because monsters like Saddam really don't have any respect for life, legality, the international order, or the integrity of other states.
It's a simple matter of fact that the Iraqi people went nuts - and precipitated a descent into chaos. And don't tell me, that's why we should tolerate brutal dictators playing with chemical and biological weapons - because monsters like Saddam really don't have any respect for life, legality, the international order, or the integrity of other states.
It all comes down to this - things are worse now than they were in 2002 because we started the war in Iraq. Any competent leader would have known that the post-war situation in Iraq would be chaotic. It's happened before. It always happens. To make things worse, we ripped their existing government up and forced them to build a new one from scratch. We are responsible for everything that happened as a consequence of the war we started.
Saying it's the Iraqi people's fault is like tossing someone overboard then blaming them for not knowing how to swim.
Reply to T Clark I think the plan was to democratize the middle east and button up sources for bomb material. Saddam wouldn't cooperate with UN inspectors and he was a brutal dictator, so he was supposed to be a good place to start.
The post war phase didn't go well because the US had no will to be an occupying nation.
Nah, the Iraqi people just went nuts, started stripping off and arranging themselves in human pyramids and shit. Must have been something in the kebabs. What can you do?
I think the plan was to democratize the middle east and button up sources for bomb material. Saddam wouldn't cooperate with UN inspectors and he was a brutal dictator, so he was supposed to be a good place to start.
The post war phase didn't go well because the US had no will to be an occupying nation.
It was completely predictable that what did would happen. The US knew or should have known. It doesn't matter what justification or explanation anyone gives, we are responsible.
The Iraq war was a complete success. The companies - oil, arms, agriculture, and finance - that employ the US government got fabulously rich. Dead American soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and a shattered country are simply the collateral for that success.
Any competent leader would have known that the post-war situation in Iraq would be chaotic. It's happened before. It always happens.
Does it? What about Bosnia? NATO's action brought that conflict to an end, and thereafter, they started negotiations, divided the territory and restored peace.
To make things worse, we ripped their existing government up and forced them to build a new one from scratch.
The existing government was a mad man, who used chemical weapons against his neighbours and his own people, and thumbed his nose at the international community as they attempted to reign him in through peaceful means.
Saying it's the Iraqi people's fault is like tossing someone overboard then blaming them for not knowing how to swim.
We saw the Iraqi people running riot, looting museums and tearing down statues; while Bush proclaimed 'mission accomplished' from the deck of an aircraft carrier. That could have been the end of it. Instead, from July 2003, the Iraqi insurgency used IEDs to target coalition vehicles; and it went south from there. I'm not saying the Iraq war went well. But it's not valid to infer, that because it didn't go well - our motives were improper. A more accurate metaphor, if we must - might be, we saw someone drowning, threw them a life-bouy, and it hit them on the head and knocked them unconscious, and they drowned.
He's a guy whose summation of the aftermath of the Iraq war is "the Iraqi people went nuts". How can you not take him seriously and give him the respect he deserves? Oh, the humanity. :fire:
He's a guy whose summation of the aftermath of the Iraq war is "the Iraqi people went nuts". How can you not take him seriously and give him the respect he deserves. Oh, the humanity. :fire:
I made the mistake of clicking on your profile picture for no particular reason, and I'm currently realing from the realness. As to our friend, young counterLunch, I simply noticed a quotidian comedy to his comment "Thanks for your opinion - such as it is." To this day, I still chortle with joy at the sound.
As to our friend, young counterLunch, I simply noticed a quotidian comedy to his comment "Thanks for your opinion - such as it is." To this day, I still chortle with joy at the sound.
Yes, not sure why that became a great source of offence. Appears that counter has issues understanding humans.
The great source of offense may have been my quick eye to catch his quick deletion of posts and subsequent re-instating of posts. I could be wrong though.
I don't moderate just on the basis of folks being offended, particularly in the shoutbox. Wouldn't want to let sympathy cloud my judgement. Especially, when I don't have any.
Implicit authorisation comes from the fact 1441 is couched in the form of an ultimatum. But having said that, the US doesn't conduct its foreign policy through the UN. The President of the US has the constitutional authority to declare war, and so, to talk of illegality is facile.
As I said, this is a retarded argument on par with climate change denialism. The US has signed the UN Charter and thereby willingly submitted to those rules. 1441 was not an authorisation to use force. Compare it with other instances where such force was unequivocally given by the SC. That nobody agrees with this interpretation is apparent: even the UK found the same in their 2011 Iraq Inquiry.
I'm talking about some very weighty things, international relations, war, and death - and seconds after I post a lengthy post, making numerous interesting points, I get a response that highlights the least interesting, placeholder remark - and then claims I don't get the joke. Actually, I do. What he seems to be saying is, he doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people. But I don't say what I say from a lack of sympathy, or lack of understanding of the depth of moral peril here. The breakdown of the international order - as a consequence of Iraq is very serious, and if in future, the US is unprepared to step in for fear of exactly this kind of politically motivated self recrimination - then more people will suffer in the long term. You're legitimizing brutal dictators oppressing their own people, and criminalising those who try and prevent it.
You're legitimizing brutal dictators oppressing their own people, and criminalising those who try and prevent it.
Indeed, Saddam was a great guy. That was my point. He did torture even better than you lot. But I see your point, if you bomb and torture people who are oppressed, you make their lives better. Unless they go nuts, of course. But that's hardly your fault.
The US has signed the UN Charter and thereby willingly submitted to those rules. 1441 was not an authorisation to use force. Compare it with other instances where such force was unequivocally given by the SC. That nobody agrees with this interpretation is apparent: even the UK found the same in their 2011 Iraq Inquiry.
I've addressed this. The US President has constitutional authority to declare war. You may not like that, but it's a fact. Membership of the UN does not abridge that authority, and if it did, the US would not be part of the UN. After 16 previous resolutions, calling on Saddam to disarm, 1441 clearly implies - or else!
So here's my question: or else, what?
We'll write you an even more stern letter?
And if not the US, who else is going to make good on that threat?
Indeed, Saddam was a great guy. That was my point. He did torture even better than you lot. But I see your point, if you bomb and torture people who are oppressed, you make their lives better. Unless they go nuts, of course. But that's hardly you're fault.
Imagine you're American, and Trump had installed himself as a dictator, thrown his political opponents in jail - used chemical weapons against black people, and invaded Canada. The international community should just stand by and watch - should they? Well, let's say they don't. After a decade or two seeking peaceful means to reign him in, they bomb the shit out of Washington DC, bringing down Trump and his brutal regime. Do you:
On second thoughts, stop here. I never made this argument.
Neither did you offer an alternative. In fact, you've offered nothing that isn't light on fact, and heavy on left wing, self righteous, politically correct, anti-western sentiment, and dripping with sarcasm. You may not agree with my remarks, but they're serious and considered. Legitimatising brutal dictators isn't a laughing matter.
You got rightly mocked and pilloried for your boneheaded characterisation of the Iraqi people and what was inflicted on them. That will continue until you stop doing that.
more accurate metaphor, if we must - might be, we saw someone drowning, threw them a life-bouy, and it hit them on the head and knocked them unconscious, and they drowned.
Addressing only the analogy, are you arguing that we can't look at the result (i.e. the dead victim) when assessing whether our decision to throw the life bouy was correct? Shouldn't we also look at how competently we threw it and whether we assessed the foreseeable likelihood that our attempted heroics might lead to a worse outcome than had we just left the situation alone?
Or do you just look at whether we had pure intent, and. If we did, and even if others were yelling at us "don't throw it, you're going to kill him!", we're absolved from moral criticism because our heart was in the right place?
Those of us who have consistently (unlike American administrations) opposed brutal dictatorships and want them removed recognize that the "cure" can't be worse than the disease.
You got rightly mocked and pilloried for your boneheaded characterisation of the Iraqi people and what was inflicted on them. That will continue until you stop doing that.
Your derision means nothing to me. I've read your serious posts!
Reply to Baden As someone who doesn’t watch football, the sooner England lose the better. It’s getting hard to find somewhere to drink on the weekends when everything is booked.
I've addressed this. The US President has constitutional authority to declare war. You may not like that, but it's a fact. Membership of the UN does not abridge that authority, and if it did, the US would not be part of the UN. After 16 previous resolutions, calling on Saddam to disarm, 1441 clearly implies - or else!
No, you haven't addressed this, you've only demonstrated you don't know how international law works. When you sign a treaty it's pacta sunt servanda.
So here's my question: or else, what?
We'll write you an even more stern letter?
And if not the US, who else is going to make good on that threat?
If the SC gives the warning, it's the SC that decides to use force or not, not the US going at it solo based on lies. There were no WMD. Your references to a war 20 years before in which chemical weapons were used in no way is a substitute for obtaining proof in 2002/2003. That proof was absent as communicated by Hans Blix multiple times and he was the one, as agreed by the US as well, that he was charged with researching if Iraq had WMDs in 2002. It's not about WMDs in 1982.
So, or else was in this case "nothing" because Iraq complied with 1441.
The UN, just as they did with Kuweit, is perfectly capable of deciding to use force. The threat was already credible.
As someone who doesn’t watch football, the sooner England lose the better. It’s getting hard to find somewhere to drink on the weekends when everything is booked.
Never understood why you call soccer football. A football is something thrown with your hands.
Addressing only the analogy, are you arguing that we can't look at the result (i.e. the dead victim) when assessing whether our decision to throw the life bouy was correct? Shouldn't we also look at how competently we threw it and whether we assessed the foreseeable likelihood that our attempted heroics might lead to a worse outcome than had we just left the situation alone?
You're not addressing only the analogy - and clearly, mine is better than the one I was offered. We didn't throw the Iraqi people overboard, and them blame them for being unable to swim. We saw them drowning, and threw them a life bouy. It's unfortunate, it hit them on the head and knocked them out. (This actually happens all the time - so good public safety warning built in.) I am saying that the ultimate result is not a reflection of the intent, yes. And I'm also saying, that the post-war descent into chaos was not precipitated by coalition forces.
Reply to Hanover It derives from the German “Fußball”, or “fussball”, referring to players “fussing”, or “showing unnecessary or excessive concern” over a ball.
Lie? Yes, absolutely. Illegal? Interesting concept. War is one of those things that if you can pull it off and you win, then legality won't matter a whole lot. "Treaties are just pieces of paper" somebody famous said about invading Belgium and Netherlands. It also won't matter if your invaded country is ruined in the process (Iraq). The International Court may find for Humpty Dumpty, but he's still not put back together.
If you agree by treaty that your won't go to war except in self defence or with UN security counsel approval then not abiding by those rules makes the law illegal. If you want to argue you aren't bound by treaties then you shouldn't sign them in the first place.
If the SC gives the warning, it's the SC that decides to use force or not, not the US going at it solo based on lies. There were no WMD. Your references to a war 20 years before in which chemical weapons were used in no way is a substitute for obtaining proof in 2002/2003. That proof was absent as communicated by Hans Blix multiple times and he was the one, as agreed by the US as well, that he was charged with researching if Iraq had WMDs in 2002. It's not about WMDs in 1982.
In 1991 - at an-Najaf – Karbala area, Saddam used nerve agents & CS gas against civilians. And Halabjah - in 1988, again, against civilians. And he used them extensively during the Iran Iraq war. Saddam and "Chemical Ali" - were tried, and hung - by the same court.
Whoever the "beneficiaries" were, I think the war was started primary for ideological and nationalistic reasons. When something bad happens to the US, the US does something bad to someone else.
Yes this is or was true. I'm not asserting that the US is perfect, far from it but we are TRYING now.
Beginning with the last administration that vowed to not get the US in a new war, which they upheld.
Pulling out of Afghanistan is already too late. We were too late before we put boots on the ground. The US is not into continuity of administrations any more.
No. There were no WMD. There were some decades old remnants, but nothing that posed a threat. Why didn't the US take out Iran? That seemed the more significant target, then and now.
Oh, so when you said - you disagree, I was supposed to believe you. Because Saddam claimed to have chemical weapons. And he used chemical weapons, repeatedly, in the past. But you say he didn't have any, because Blix didn't find them - during a series of weapons inspections that were cancelled last minuet, or part way through. And then, back to the UN for another stern warning, to which Saddam would agree - and then cancel them again.
When did Syria receive its chemical weapons from Saddam?
That account differed from Clapper's who said the smuggling occurred in March of 2003, not 2002, as Sada claimed. While Sada's story perhaps just adds more confusion to the theory, one thing is definitely clear: There was a large buildup of traffic between Syria and Iraq in March 2003.
Yes this is or was true. I'm not asserting that the US is perfect, far from it but we are TRYING now.
I love our country and I'm grateful for having been born here. I feel a sense of common purpose with other Americans. I know you love it here too. That makes it even more important to me that we face up to our responsibilities.
The US is not into continuity of administrations any more.
I don't think it will surprise you to know that I'm not a strong supporter of continuity with many of the actions of the previous administration. But still, you're right. It makes it hard to govern effectively.
Woah did you just delete your former post and then copy and paste it for no reason?.
I'm a bit confused about all this foofaraw (I had to check the spelling on that.) I can still see Counterpunch's original post from my "Mentions" page. It was a response to my previous post. Although I disagreed with everything he wrote, I didn't see anything wrong with the post other than that.
Although I disagreed with everything he wrote, I didn't see anything wrong with the post other than that.
That because my post was a reply to you, correcting your many, many errors - of fact, reason, wisdom, moral and political norms, taste and common sense!
There's no doubt in my mind that there would be a civil war in the US in that situation. There were a significant number of people who wanted to start one after they lost a peaceful and fair election in 2020.
That because my post was a reply to you, correcting your many, many errors - of fact, reason, wisdom, moral and political norms, taste and common sense!
Why are you attacking me? I was supporting you. Also, I can't let you cast aspersions on my taste. I still say Ohio Express and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band were the greatest American rock bands, not matter what @Noble Dust says.
Also, I can't let you cast aspersions on my taste. I still say Ohio Express and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band were the greatest American rock bands, not matter what Noble Dust says.
Not just the greatest bands, but the greatest Americans!
Reply to counterpunch The US had unlimited access to Iraq once it invaded and no WMD were found. WMD are like Bigfoot. Without proof of them, we can say they don't exist.
If you want to argue you aren't bound by treaties then you shouldn't sign them in the first place.
Of course. I don't want to argue in favor of violating treaties. I am not in favor of international belligerence or the US wars in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. What seems to be the case is that checks on the behavior of the major powers (like Russia, China, USA, etc) are few and far between. We do not have a planetary police force enforcing the law, the UN and its Security Council notwithstanding.
The US had unlimited access to Iraq once it invaded and no WMD were found. WMD are like Bigfoot. Without proof of them, we can say they don't exist.
"Iraqi Su-22 and Mi-8 aircraft began dropping chemical bombs on Halabja's residential areas, far from the besieged Iraqi army base on the outskirts of the town. According to regional Kurdish rebel commanders, Iraqi aircraft, coordinated by helicopters, conducted up to 14 bombings in sorties of seven to eight planes each."
Of course. I don't want to argue in favor of violating treaties. I am not in favor of international belligerence or the US wars in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. What seems to be the case is that checks on the behavior of the major powers (like Russia, China, USA, etc) are few and far between. We do not have a planetary police force enforcing the law, the UN and its Security Council notwithstanding.
True. The problem with politics is that they are too often a zero sum game and people take positions instead of enter interest based negotiations. The reality is that multilateralism can have tremendous added value for everyone involved but parties need to be prepared to commit. For weaker parties the added value is clear. I'm sure Kuwait was very happy with the UN. And I think the work Unicef does and various peace keeping missions are great too. Bigger players tend to think they're better off without it, I think they're wrong. Big fishes become small fishes and if you neglected to establish strong multilateral institutions because it's convenient to fuck over smaller players, expect to be fucked back. By China most likely.
Exactly. Humans find every possible way of disappointing me.
Take a longer perspective, and overall, our evolution, intellect and technology are miraculous. It's unfortunate that; because we do not value science as valid knowledge - and so have not applied technology in accord with a scientific understanding of reality, we turn technology in against eachother - rather than outward, against the challenge of our existence.
Google maps keeping us on an electronic leash is just another ideologically driven, misapplication of technology. The surveillance state is like nuclear weapons or fossil fuels. The wrong technology applied for ideological reasons. It won't last. We'll either correct this approach or become extinct.
It is possible to turn off 'precise geolocation data' in the cookies section.
After all humans run society, not words written on pieces of paper by people decades ago who would have likely agreed that practices can change over time and that their words are not to be considered eternal ritual.
Unless it's the Second Amendment. That's effectively the Eleventh Commandment.
There is a law. We keep it in a little box on the coffee table.
Mmm. Coffee
24h
I love the smell of coffee :yum:
The question is: was the smell an appealing smell on its own or is it because the effect it has on the mind and body?
Or is it possible that there is enough caffeine in the air droplets to have given us some kind of contact high?
I started making this sauce. It's equal parts lemon juice, Greek yogurt, and tahini with salt and Sriracha.
I'm not exactly sure where Sriracha sauce was our whole lives because I don't remember eating it as a child. There was a yellow bottle and a red squeeze bottle with the salt and pepper but never a bottle with a Cock on it. :smirk:
When I left Chicago and moved West, I found out that the faster there is food on the table after being sat, the more people would order. Great for the servers at the restaurant and for the customer! :yum:
We are so spoiled out here to have homemade chips and salsa on the table before our party is totally seated! :cool:
Every other ethnic group is slow on the grub shove around these parts. :roll:
The first time I made it I thought it was disgusting, but I ate it anyway. Now I make it every week and put it in everything.
To go from hating it to loving it, has to be something biological.
From your description, it sounds pretty disgusting, but you made it and were too cheap to throw the shit out, so you ate it and are still trying to convince yourself it isn't disgusting. Now it's your thing, sort of a signature, so you hang onto it. What'll happen is that one day a friend or family member will come over and tell you to stop eating that shit and you'll finally be freed of that nastiness.
It's sort of like being single and having a broken down stinking of dog chair in the living room that you convince yourself is comfortable and an important part of your quirky personality. Then a girl comes over and bursts your bubble and tells you it's not comfortable and not quirky. It's just nasty and you were too lazy and cheap to care about it, but her dainty self isn't going to humor you and let it stink up the room.
I don't know this from experience. Hold on, yes I do. That's exactly how I know.
From your description, it sounds pretty disgusting, but you made it and were too cheap to throw the shit out, so you ate it and are still trying to convince yourself it isn't disgusting.
I'm confused. Is it the substance of the sauce that's a problem, or is it just the properties?
I'm not exactly sure where Sriracha sauce was our whole lives
It's a little known fact - Sriracha was a sauce originally made in Egypt about four thousand years ago. The recipe was lost until a Thai archeologist was translating some papyrus scrolls found in the 1930s in the 1980s. She tried to recreate the food, with little success until she added some southeast Asian spices.
The reason this is a little known fact is that I just made it up. Now, to give this discussion a philosophical tilt, after reading the first paragraph, would you know that Sriracha was based on an ancient Egyptian recipe?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 07, 2021 at 17:10#5627250 likes
It's sort of like being single and having a broken down stinking of dog chair in the living room that you convince yourself is comfortable and an important part of your quirky personality
I really need to become a forum sponsor because I could go take a picture of that leather chair :rofl:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 07, 2021 at 17:13#5627270 likes
The reason this is a little known fact is that I just made it up. Now, to give this discussion a philosophical tilt, after reading the first paragraph, would you know that Sriracha was based on an ancient Egyptian recipe?
Touche' :up: Kind of like naming the song based on the lyrics provided without help from the Internet! I love it! :100: :party:
However to answer your question: No I wouldn't have a clue :eyes:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 07, 2021 at 17:17#5627290 likes
I could never in my wildest dreams imagine what it was like for those children and the families that loved them. :broken:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 07, 2021 at 17:28#5627390 likes
I'm curious as to what some of the names were for our members early education up to 18 years old or through High school (depending where in the world you hail from:
In Illinois our school's had names like:
Concord
Cass
York
I believe they were named after battles that were fought in the area.
What were yours?
I believe they were named after battles that were fought in the area.
The Battle of Cass? Which war was that? Maybe they were naming your schools after grape varieties. Larger cities tend to name schools after famous men [Benedict Arnold, Charles Manson, Donald Trump], small towns name schools after themselves. It's all we had.
John Marshall High School, Rochester MN. 4th Chief Justice SCOTUS 1801 to 1835--still the record for length. The 1803 case of Marbury v. Madison presented the first major case heard by the Marshall Court. In his opinion for the court, Marshall upheld the principle of judicial review, whereby courts could strike down federal and state laws if they conflicted with the Constitution. He also upheld the separation of powers and established the Judiciary as a coequal branch of government.
I came across a post by @Wosret about the Canadian elections. A check-out clerk had denounced him for being a liberal. Oh good, Wosret's back. Wonderful. Then I noticed the post was 6 years old. "Let's Do the Time Warp Again". Wonder how Wosret is doing.
Lakeside High, suburban Atlanta, named after General Beauregard Bodacious Lakeside, the only man to fight in both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, having been bestowed the Medal of Valor only to have it rescinded when caught in a compromising position with a Cairn Terrier named Toto (yes, you know the one).
Reply to Wosret, yep, same old, except hardly ever downtown any longer, pandemic'ified.
Things are well hereabouts. Managed to grow corona hair. Don't think it's been this long since the 80s. :D But it's'gotta go. In the way. (By the way, I have a new phone #, in case you have my old one, or want the new one.)
Reply to Bitter Crank We've had coffee a couple times in person while I was living in Halifax. I'm far more infamous than famous.
None around me yet, last year I think, maybe year before there were, and it was smokey, but didnt have to evacuate.
Not quite as magical as I once was, but still kicking (and screaming). Currently weighing my options, can't do the same level of labor I used to be able to...
can't do the same level of labor I used to be able to
Basic forces like time and gravity will do that to us. I'm definitely feeling it. Less magic and more reality as the years pass.
Keep kicking and screaming. Good thing your not in the burning zone.
The sum of my volunteering thee days is watering the grass at the church across the street. Grass and trees help keep the city a bit cooler, though it is a shame to use drinking water. I also volunteer as a subscriber to Netflix. Just watched Lilyhammer which was pretty good. Features Steve Van Zandt from the Sopranos who ends up in Lilyhammer in a witness protection scheme. The satire of Norwegian obsessive progressive politics and the criminal tendencies of "Johnny" [Van Zandt] who opens a little Las Vegas style night club is pretty good. 24 episodes.
Are you keeping up with reading? So many great books out there, and so little time. For sci fi, The Hail Mary Project by Andy Weir is a good read. I'm currently reading Crabgrass Frontier which is about suburbanization -- which the author shows has been going on for a long time. I seem to have read much of the book before (I come across my own underlining) but it's as if I had never seen the material before. Memory is another thing that time and gravity degrade.
Thank you very much for responding to the summons. It's good to hear from regulars who moved on to other things. Take care. Good luck for you!
Maybe they were naming your schools after grape varieties.
Hmm....we had a lot of corn fields around us but we actually had the Ovaltine factory on our prairie path. God it smelled so good!
I must have been 9 riding pedal bikes with my Mom. She rode a bright yellow three Speed Schwinn and I rode a Schwinn with a purple, pleather banana seat that got hot as hell in the heat.
She was platinum blonde and freshly remarried to a man she knew for 6 weeks before marrying.
In retrospect she was probably trying to bond with me. I'm going to remind her of the trip and see if she remembers.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 10, 2021 at 18:47#5645020 likes
@Wosret
{{{{{{{Wow}}}}}}} Welcome home :heart:
I have to tell you that I felt like I almost saw a ghost. Like that is how likely I ever expected you to come back :flower:
I'm so glad you are here and I too am feeling funky from the pandemic, for me it was the lack of hugggggggs in my life. Things are returning to normal round here :flower:
I am still so very excited for your returning :love:
You, @Mayor of Simpleton resurfacing it almost makes me wonder if there are others still lurking.
I won't name names but you know who you are :eyes:
Hmm....we had a lot of corn fields around us but we actually had the Ovaltine factory on our prairie path. God it smelled so good!
For a while, I lived near the Necco candy factory near MIT in Cambridge MA. They made Necco Wafers, of course, and also those Valentines hearts with goofy sayings on them. They also made Clark Bars, Sky Bars, and others. The neighborhood was always filled with the smell of chocolate.
I lived near a Hormel plant, and when you drove by, it smelled of smoked meat product. Some days you'd get a better dose of it than others, but always mouth watering.
Anyone else only reply to the new topics with less than a dozen posts? I'm a "casual" philosopher and even internet poster kind of guy. I always fear anything greater is just too far developed of a conversation to interject in.
There’s a paper mill about 50 miles East of where I live. On certain rainy days you can smell it here. Sort of a sulfury, chemically smell. A smelly sort of smell that smells smelly.
I used to live downwind of the whisky distillery in Edinburgh. On some days the air smelled like Shreddies (malted breakfast cereal). I like Shreddies but not like that.
However, Shreddies are wheat, whereas whisky is barley, so I'm not sure what was going on (in my mind/at the distillery).
There’s a paper mill about 50 miles East of where I live. On certain rainy days you can smell it here. Sort of a sulfury, chemically smell. A smelly sort of smell that smells smelly.
As a kid, on the way to the Georgia coast, we'd drive through Brunswick, with the billowing smoke from the paper mills. I couldn't see how anyone could live with that smell. It seems to have gotten better over the years, maybe some new regulations. People aren't as hardy as they once were.
There’s a paper mill about 50 miles East of where I live. On certain rainy days you can smell it here. Sort of a sulfury, chemically smell. A smelly sort of smell that smells smelly.
Yes. Paper mill sludge is about as bad as an industrial smell can get. Not nearly as nice as chocolate.
The International Standard for foul odor is Stench Startina, a combination of skatole, cadaverine, Putrescine, ghastly cheap perfume, the exhalations of the Mitch McConnell, Donald Trump, and any sewage lagoon serving a slaughter house. Stench Startina rates a +10. Vanilla extract rates a -10, bacon -9.4. Rate your bad odors accordingly.
Childish grudge aside, I take at least one shower a day and don't sweat easily. I do however make it a point to eat sufficient fiber, and in the immortal words of Dr. Robert Lustig, "In life you have two choices, it's either fat or fart."
Reply to Benkei I will never defend British soccer fans. What’s that saying? ‘Rugby is a thugs game enjoyed by gentlemen. Soccer is a gentleman’s game enjoyed by thugs.’
Reply to Wayfarer Yeah, I've heard that one before too. It's unfortunately the fame type of people that came over on the weekend to party in Amsterdam. The one benefit of Brexit is that that's over.
Otherwise evenly matched, I think Italy's midfielders & strikers give them a slight edge over England.
It might be even a worse day for the Brits if Sir Richard's joyride to orbit goes the way of "Icarus' flight", y'know, hubris, etc. I wish him well (not really – fuckin' billionaires!)
Makes good points. Of course, by all means, do read up on things on your own, it's the way to go, just don't think that makes you the foremost expert.
Often enough, there's a more reasonable space between gullibility/credulity and hyper-skepticism/denial. The universe has made no promise to accommodate us, our peculiarities, our concerns.
I recommend the Tumblr blog, subtitled "Drive-By Shootings" -- the shootings are snapshots of Los Angeles.
Really? Destroy LA? Hmmmm, I haven't been there yet, but maybe You should. On the other hand, the Blessed Virgin Mary seems to be a fan of small businesses, so there is that.
Really? Destroy LA? Hmmmm, I haven't been there yet, but maybe You should. On the other hand, the Blessed Virgin Mary seems to be a fan of small businesses, so there is that.
It's only because they couldn't get a permit to bury the bathtub through the sidewalk.
Btw, England put on a great show and Southgate is a good dude. Kudos to them all :clap: . Some of their fans are cunts but you can't blame the team for that.
Reply to T Clark Interesting fact: ancient indigenous people used to wipe themselves out in order to get archeologists to blame a neighboring tribe, ages later. They never learn!
Interesting fact: ancient indigenous people used to wipe themselves out in order to get archeologists to blame a neighboring tribe, ages later. They never learn!
You call it an "interesting fact." I, on the other hand, when I make something up, call it a "little known fact."
Reply to T Clark Like I said, it's a little interesting known fact. Or an interesting known little fact--as opposed to a big fact. Big facts are hard to ignore. Gravity is a big fact. We can usually survive not knowing little boring facts, but little known big interesting facts can ruin one's day--or planet.
Reply to MawReply to Noble Dust Rain in the city is a much different experience than rain out in the open countryside. Rain in the city does what snow does: it transforms the appearance of things. The streets become darker yet reflective (self-absorbed concrete). The soundscape changes; so does the scent of the city. Some people, like some dogs, don't mind getting wet; other people, like some dogs, cringe when getting wet. Dry rats are less offensive than wet rats, I've always thought.
This all applies to one rainy day with blue skies before and aft. Days of rain in the city rapidly pass into rancidity. Add heat: disgusting.
I guess it is time to leave. I will be apart from this forum trying to improve my knowledge in terms of culture, essays, academic bibliography, etc... Sorry for the low quality posts I did.
Nevertheless, I learned a lot of information when I was debating through the threads.
Reply to javi2541997 It's not either-or. Go learn what you seek offline and learn what surprises you via discussions online. Good luck and safe travels anyway.
I hope this prodigy doesn't wind up like all rest: festooned with scientific & engineering degrees and/or artistic virtuosity yet devoid of original and, more significantly, philosophical cultivation as they spiral down a disappointingly ordinary posterity mumbling (smugly) to themselves "I'm a genius, I'm a genius." What a mind fuck MENSA really is (no, that's not "sour grapes" grousing).
I was listening to an audiobook at 3x speed and it was really hard to understand, but I'm trying to train my brain to listen to a book like a fax machine transmits data. I'm letting you guys know this so that when I start being really smart in a couple of weeks you'll know why.
To complement this increase in intelligence, I'm also going crazy heavy on the roids so that my hulk like brain will have a corresponding hulk like body.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 13, 2021 at 14:46#5663180 likes
@Hanover
Are you familiar with smooth brains? :razz:
I was listening to an audiobook at 3x speed and it was really hard to understand, but I'm trying to train my brain to listen to a book like a fax machine transmits data.
I tried that. I listened to "War and Peace" in 20 minutes. It involves Russia.
Reply to T Clark I had this theory of Gilligan's Island in that it was heaven, with Gilligan as the messiah, keeping everyone safe in heaven, yet appearing as an innocent, constantly interfering with science (the professor) from casting them out from heaven. The Skipper maintained order, the lust of Ginger was never taken advantage of, the Howell's wealth was respected but of no value, Lovey was loyal without limit, and Maryann had a sweet little bedunkudunk and no one seemed to notice 'cept Hanover who tuned right in each week my friend.
Reply to K Turner It's Maryann from Gilligan's Island, Marsha from the Brady Bunch, as T Clark alluded to, next was Flo (kiss my grits) from Alice, I'll give away that next was Speed Racer, but surely someone knows who the kid at the bottom is.
I had this theory of Gilligan's Island in that it was heaven, with Gilligan as the messiah, keeping everyone safe in heaven, yet appearing as an innocent, constantly interfering with science (the professor) from casting them out from heaven. The Skipper maintained order, the lust of Ginger was never taken advantage of, the Howell's wealth was respected but of no value, Lovey was loyal without limit, and Maryann had a sweet little bedunkudunk and no one seemed to notice 'cept Hanover who tuned right in each week my friend.
I think it would make more sense if Mr. Cleaver was God, Mrs. Cleaver was Mary, and Beaver was Jesus. Eddie Haskell would be either the devil or Judas. Lumpy could be Santa Claus. I'm not sure about Wally. Maybe the disciple Paul or John the Baptist or somebody. Or maybe Mel Gibson.
So I watched Annie Hall for the first time last night and gosh its male fantasy for the intellectual class. Just the height of bourgie self-aggrandisement. Entertaining in its form, and really clever, but gosh the whole thing feels icky in a way that it probably wouldn't have at the time of its release.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 14, 2021 at 12:48#5668780 likes
@Hanover @T Clark
It's interesting to read the fantasy world of both of you. There seems to be a heavy influence from the creators.
Simple nod, guilt implied or the best you had before your peruse through the Sears catalog? :rofl:
Just so you don't think you are alone: my girlfriends and I went out on my 18th birthday and boldly walked into the local convience store and asked for a Playgirl magazine. The old man behind the counter looked confused and said Playgirl? We explained the difference between the two and he held up some Trashy magazine for guys with the word Fetish on the front and we declined and left. Bitchin the whole way about how men are catered to and girls get shafted! What an unfair world we were going to do something about. :strong:
I wonder what was in that Fetish magazine we turned down that night :razz:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 14, 2021 at 12:56#5668800 likes
Entertaining in its form, and really clever, but gosh the whole thing feels icky in a way that it probably wouldn't have at the time of its release.
Entertaining but feels icky.
I'll pass :meh:
Now, a friend is going to the new Top Gun movie in a guy friends flight suit with him!
Otherwise she would have waited to go with us in the Fall!
Sell out :down:
However I would climb over her body if he wanted another lady to go with him! :100:
OMG Tom Cruise ~ swooning
So I watched Annie Hall for the first time last night and gosh its male fantasy for the intellectual class. Just the height of bourgie self-aggrandisement. Entertaining in its form, and really clever, but gosh the whole thing feels icky in a way that it probably wouldn't have at the time of its release.
Annie Hall is one of my favorite movies. Loved it then. Love it now. Most of Allen's movies are about "bourgie self-aggrandizement." That's kind of the point. Doesn't feel icky at all to me. I wonder if your feelings are influenced by Allen's controversies.
I wonder if your feelings are influenced by Allen's controversies.
I don't think so. Like, I hated Diane Keaton's character (love Diane Keaton tho). The way she was played was just pure male fantasy (as are all of Allen's female characters, from the little I've seen) Cute, naive, receptive to Alvie's overly-intellectual pontificating, in fact initiating the relationship. And Alvie, God. Like, neurotic as all hell, and while it's obviously acknowledged and self-aware of this, it almost feel like it uses it's own self-awareness as a justification or even tacit glorification. It's like the whole movie exists to... justify it's own existence and everything that happens in it. Like it tries to pre-empt objections by cheekily winking at its own neuroticism. It involutes at every point. There's no... innocence to this film. I think Allen is like, the perfect person to make this kind of movie, but I didn't find it icky because it came from him. It's icky on its own merits to me.
Still, so stylish, and I was still entertained nonetheless!
To open this discussion up, there are a bunch of male artists who come to mind when I get into this type of discussion. R. Crumb, a cartoonist and the subject of the wonderful film "Crumb." Comedians Bill Burr and Louis C.K. Woody Allen. They lay their insides out for everyone to see and a lot of what they show is considered offensive. The also show their anxieties, weaknesses, failures in a very personal and humiliating way. Another comedian who comes to mind is Mike Burbiglia, although he is not as offensive.
These guys lay their guts out on the table - the ugliness inside them. The weakness. They know how they look to others. I think they're really, really funny and I find their stuff very moving. I know how hard it is to show your insides. Shame is the primary emotion for men these days. That and anger, which are really two sides of the same coin.
Reply to T Clark My own issue with that style of comedy is that sometimes - not all the time - the 'guts on the table' approach can be used as a kind of armor. It's a way of staving off any attempt at critique by pre-empting it and "building it into" the comedy so that any unease is simply offset by pointing to their self-awareness. And it can becomes this spiral of self-invovlement so that everything points 'back' to the comedian. It can become a kind of weaponized vulnerability: "I've admitted my vulnerability, and who the hell are you to call me out on it"? That's that 'edge' that comes with the vulnerability. It's a kind of vulnerability wielded for the sake of becoming totally invulnerable to things. Not saying that this always happens, but it's a kind of 'danger' I see with that kind of comedic approach.
I actually think of Woody Allen's character in that movie as a caricature of the stereotypical neurotic Jewish person I'm fairly familiar with. I viewed the movie as a satirical presentation of an over-intellectualizing, anxiety ridden, ruminating self-evaluative person who can't just take a deep breath and let it be. He is the antithesis of chill.
But I guess it's hard to see satire in a culture you're unfamiliar with because you don't know what they're making fun of.
That's that 'edge' that comes with the vulnerability. It's a kind of vulnerability wielded for the sake of becoming totally invulnerable to things. Not saying that this always happens, but it's a kind of 'danger' I see with that kind of comedic approach.
I don't see that, at least not with the artists I named. I think they have shown themselves as legitimately weak and vulnerable. I think comedians are much more likely to act in a way they know will be found offensive because they think their audience will think it's funny. I see it as a resentful reaction to what is seen as the lack of respect for men these days. That's different from what I'm talking about.
Here's a clip of my favorite Bill Burr sketch. It does have some offensive homophobic language, but I remember the first time I watched it, it brought tears to my eyes.
These guys lay their guts out on the table - the ugliness inside them.
Once upon a time, I thought the 'guts on the table' approach was a good idea. Now, I'd just as soon they keep their guts off the table. It isn't as if extremely neurotic--verging on demented--people are so hard to come by that we need comedians making a career out of it.
"Icky". I've never found Allen or his films "icky". Great to not great, certainly. His depiction of neurosis can get tiresome after 3 or 4 hours, but that's true for neurosis in general -- my own and others'. Two thumbs up for Love and Death and Annie Hall.
So I watched Annie Hall for the first time last night and gosh its male fantasy for the intellectual class. Just the height of bourgie self-aggrandisement. Entertaining in its form, and really clever, but gosh the whole thing feels icky in a way that it probably wouldn't have at the time of its release.
Agreed, having personally grown up on the film and Woody Allen generally, although the scene where Annie orders a pastrami on white with lettuce, tomato and mayo and his reaction is classic.
I put my vote in for Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, and Midnight in Paris. I also have a deep and abiding affection for Take the Money and Run and What's Up Tiger Lilly.
"Oh, you're oriental!" the driver says to the woman who just landed in the passenger seat.
Brilliant idea -- substituting utterly unrelated dialogue to a Chinese movie.
The only Allen film I didn't like was INTERIORS because I was expecting the typical Allen comedy and it never materialized. It finally occurred to me that it wasn't several years later.
Reply to Bitter Crank That reminds me of a joke about backwater cops in Mississippi.
A cop car pulls up to a hitchhiker on the road. The Guy has that Mexican look to him.
Cop 1, " you don't look like you are from around here"
Hitchhiker, "No, I am just passing though and I got robbed down the road a ways. I was looking for a cop to report it."
Cop 2, "you don't look like an american, got any ID?"
Hitchhiker, "No, I just got everything stolen and I was looking for a cop to report it"
Cop 1, "Can you prove you are not an illegal immigrant?"
Hitchhiker, "No, but my family has lived here for generations"
Cop 2, "so you can answer some questions about history then?
Hitchhiker, "OK"
Cop 1, " what are the last names of 3 presidents?"
Hitchhiker, "Kennedy and Bush"
Cop 2, "let's arrest him, he don't know shit about our country, and he can't even count"
Mississippians are stereotyped as backwoods prejudiced morons. Surely you knew that.
It isn't a bad joke. Actually, it's quite good. Mississippi, on the other hand IS a bad joke. Listed as worse state in the country by experts on bad states.
Reply to Bitter Crank We have a saying in Georgia about Mississippi. When we look at the data to see where Georgia places in every important category and see we're 49th of 50, we say "thank God for Mississippi. "
The video was self-deprecating. He was telling everyone how stupid men, like himself, were. What dates the video is the use of the term "fag," which has become off limits for heterosexuals to use.
The Mississippi joke was different in that it made fun of others, not one's self. Whether Mississippians are a class in need of special protection, probably not yet.
But I always enjoyed being there. Maybe because I was sort of accepted by both sides being a novelty English person. But there were times when the whites were pissed because I could not understand why they did not like me talking to the blacks.
I tried that. I listened to "War and Peace" in 20 minutes. It involves Russia.
WOODY ALLEN: "I took a speed reading course and read War And Peace in 20 minutes. It involves Russia." So, now we're plagiarizing our smart ass comments! Have you no decency, sir?
Annie Hall: Two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, ‘Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.’ The other one says, ‘Yeah, I know; and such small portions.’"
But I always enjoyed being there. Maybe because I was sort of accepted by both sides being a novelty English person. But there were times when the whites were pissed because I could not understand why they did not like me talking to the blacks
I painted myself red and black and made a stupid shirt that said Go Dawgs on it so I could watch Ole Miss play Georgia in the mid 80s in Jackson. I took off my shirt to conceal the one way sign I stole from the parking lot. The cop came screeching up in his patrol car, so I threw the shirt covered sign in the woods. He looked around and couldn't find it in the dark. I was thinking he would probably be able to place that shirt to my bare chest if he found it, but the gods were kind that day.
I was spared that hot humid night of having to call my dad from the Jackson jail when he thought I was in Athens. Ga back at UGA.
"I took a speed reading course and read War And Peace in 20 minutes. It involves Russia."
I've used that quote in the past and attributed it. Almost everything I know is plagiarized. There haven't been any new ideas since Og Eep the great Neanderthal philosopher.
Actually, it is a bad joke, even ignoring the slur. Badly written. Too long and convoluted. Lame punchline. Oh, yeah. I almost forgot - not funny.
The joke follows the standard wind-up for jokes that tell a little story. Slur? Not much. The laughter in jokes is often driven by cruelty or unkindness. In the end it is the Mississippi officers who are lampooned. Is that why it isn't a good joke--that the Mexican-looking guy is cleverer than the Mississippi cops?
One could say that the Mississippi State Patrol no more deserves to be denigrated than Mexicans. But that's the politically correct view, and PC is an enemy of humor. The best jokes [that get the greatest audience laughter] are usually at someone's expense: Blacks, women, Jews, fags, cripples, drunks, orientals, southern hicks, stupid Swedes (Lena and Ole), dumb Pollocks, blonds, and more! Any out-group will do. Of course, PC objects to any exclusion that results in out-groups. Unfortunately for PC, not everyone wants to belong to the tightly moderated in-group of all-inclusive political correctness.
Reply to StreetlightX Have you seen Blue Jasmine?
I generally dislike Allen's work, esp. the early stuff, but I appreciate Blue Jasmine. I also find Wonder Wheel interesting (it requires a bit of adapting to the style; the story is set in the 1950's and the acting is done the way it was done then, so it seems completely overdone and unnatural by modern standards).
My own issue with that style of comedy is that sometimes - not all the time - the 'guts on the table' approach can be used as a kind of armor.
I can't locate the quote, but I remember Allen said once in an interview something like "You cannot dig around in yourself all the time." I guess over time he stopped being so overtly neurotic.
The strangest Allen film I've seen is Match Point. I mean "strangest" because it's nothing like Allen's other films.
Here's a clip of my favorite Bill Burr sketch. It does have some offensive homophobic language, but I remember the first time I watched it, it brought tears to my eyes.
It's funny - it's a good clip. But still, it's like - when you live a world where that overwhelming anxiety of being seen as 'unmasculine' is simply not hanging over you, the joke is a really... parochial one. It's like the kind of joke made by a village comedian about their weird village customs that's more heartfelt if you belong to that village and practice those very local customs. That's overstating the case a bit, because of course I know that pressure, but I guess this feeds into my point. Sometimes these human vunerabilites are far more a reflection of local - let's call it - anthropological conditions than things that speak to anything universal. Hence:
But I guess it's hard to see satire in a culture you're unfamiliar with because you don't know what they're making fun of.
Oh I get the satire, but I also get the feeling that it's not just satire. Like, I think it's pretty clear that Alvie is a kind of idealized Allen. It's who Allen would be if he was as sharp-witted, and if women just fell all over him (even as they had to deal with his neuroses), etc. It's self-exploration of an extrapolated Allen, and even as it makes fun of it, there's this unshakeable element of "look how much fun it would be if one was Alvie".
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 15, 2021 at 14:33#5675120 likes
@Baden
Would now be a good time to bring up a settling of a bet between you and I about the shout box?
:flower:
But still, it's like - when you live a world where that overwhelming anxiety of being seen as 'unmasculine' is simply not hanging over you, the joke is a really... parochial one.
If I agreed with this, Burr's clip wouldn't mean much to me. I see the things he's talking about as something universal for men. Certainly for me, my family, my friends, and the men I worked with. Burr comes from South Boston, where these types of attitudes are strong. At least they used to be, the area is heavily gentrified now. Of course Burr and the guys he's talking about are an extreme example made even more extreme to make it funny. It's not primarily about homosexuality. It's about men doing their duty, living up to expectations, not showing weakness, not disappointing the people they care about and look up to. That and the burden it puts on them.
Burr comes from South Boston, where these types of attitudes are strong.
In June of 1968 I was getting oriented in the VISTA program in Boston -- Roxbury to be specific. We were a diverse white group, ranging from sophisticated graduates of U of Illinois, California hippies, and earnest rural hicks like me. We were advised to stay out of South Boston. "They don't like people like you (plural) any better than they like blacks from Roxbury. You'll get beat up."
... expectations... That and the burden it puts on them.
Everyone has expectations to live up to, including countercultural pinko commie fags, and it usually is a burden.
The burdens of class, sex, race, and place are mercifully not static and they evolve over time. South Boston probably isn't the same place that it was 50 years ago, but it probably didn't evolve into a Harvard Square mentality, either. Hicksville, where I come from, evolved too but the continuities are readily visible.
For a comparison... Amazon is hailed as a revolutionary juggernaut, bringing something totally new to retailing -- huge selection and home delivery. Apparently the observers never heard of Sears and Roebuck which sold everything from farm machinery to women's underwear.
Reply to T Clark Pfft. Typical American chauvinism. Someone tells you to your face that not everyone experiences masculinity in this weird fucked up way that Americans do and you say 'yes you do'. Yeah OK.
This is why Americans are the worst people on the planet. Not only will they imperialise you by dropping bombs and stealing your resources, they'll even imperialise your own bloody social pathology.
Pfft. Typical American chauvinism. Someone tells you to your face that not everyone experiences masculinity in this weird fucked up way that Americans do and you say 'yes you do'. Yeah OK.
Maybe you don't feel that way, but that doesn't mean my observations aren't valid. I made a broad generalization about people I have experience with. Of course it isn't absolutely true about all men. I'm sure there's some bloke in the outback playing his didgeridoo by the billabong who doesn't feel that way. On the other hand, I doubt Australian men in general are not subject to the same pressures as men elsewhere. You pontificate about America and Americans all the time but criticize me for talking about something I have much more experience with than you do. And, whatever your feelings, what I am talking about is what Burr was talking about. He's just a lot funnier.
I'm sure there's some bloke in the outback playing his didgeridoo by the billabong who doesn't feel that way.
Or try like, most of Asia. Anyway, I couldn't ask for a better illustration of why this comedy can lead to problematic results: when even the particularities of vunerability come to be projected as universal, and then people get defensive when people are told otherwise. This is like, exactly what I meant when I said this vunerability can be donned like an armor meant to stave off criticism at the outset. It becomes wielded as emotional manipulation passing off as 'guts on the table'. No doubt this is how people like Louis CK ended up with dicks in the flowerpot.
Actually, it is a bad joke, even ignoring the slur. Badly written. Too long and convoluted. Lame punchline. Oh, yeah. I almost forgot - not funny.
Actually, you might be right. But I wrote it out more or less as I remembered it. It was probably better written originally.
As has already been pointed out, it follows a standard joke format that builds up to a punchline. And it like nearly all good jokes makes fun of someone. In reality, it would be funny if someone did not know that there had been 2 presidents with the surname Bush and I suppose there are actually people that don't know.
Or try like, most of Asia. Anyway, I couldn't ask for a better illustration of why this comedy can lead to problematic results: when even the particularities of vunerability come to be projected as universal, and then people get defensive when people are told otherwise. This is like, exactly what I meant when I said this vunerability can be donned like an armor meant to stave of criticism at the outset. It becomes wielded as emotional manipulation passing off as 'guts on the table'. No doubt this is how people like Louis CK ended up with dicks in flowerpots.
I'm not responsible for your unblinking prejudice against Americans and men. I don't see the controversy in saying that men are subject to social expectations that are damaging and stressful. Burr talks about it in a funny way and I appreciate it. You seem to be struggling to fit this all into your personal knee-jerk narrative.
Burr talks about it in a funny way and I appreciate it.
Sure, and I'm just pointing out that the kind of thing he describes - which to anyone with a modicum of comprehensive ability would recgonize as funny not just because he's making fun of 'expectations of men' but very particular expectations (Barr is too clever and astute to makr banal jokes about the former) - has its limits. That doesn't make it unfunny. It just contextualizes it.
Don't fret about it, at least you had an opinion.
I would really like to see some good jokes that do not put anyone down, but even the jokes where the teller is the butt of the joke do so.
Sure, and I'm just pointing out that the kind of thing he describes - which to anyone with a modicum of comprehensive ability would recgonize as funny not just because he's making fun of 'expectations of men' but very particular expectations (Barr is too clever and astute to do the former) - has its limits. That doesn't make it unfunny. It just contextualizes it.
But I think that's where you and I are at loggerheads. For me, yes, it's funny because of the specifics, but I find it moving because of what is more universal. Although I'm sure Burr would laugh at me if I told him that, I don't think he is unaware. As far as I can see, that is what gets your hackles up.
Yes, it's funny because of the specifics, but I find it moving because of my personal, localized, American village idea of what is more universal.
Hey...I never wrote that!
I'll let Ralph provide my rebuttal:
Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost,--and our first thought, is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment.
Reply to Benkei Imagine if that film had actually been funny... That's what Allen did with Tigger Lily: take a stupid action flick and rewrite the dialogues.
How is not vomiting going to give you a business idea?
I'll target the vomiting that no longer want to vomit but who prefer the taste of vomit over cherry, thus a vomit flavored anti-vomit pill. I'll call it RegurgiStop.
I wouldn't expect you'd understand. You only have 30 likes.
Reply to Hanover The number of likes is just proof of your middling opinions that average people share. The less likes as a function over time the better.
COVID 19 levels are up in all but a handful of states. :yikes:
Know what I call those handful of states? Suspects.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 16, 2021 at 17:43#5680940 likes
Reply to Benkei Are you attempting to move the goal posts?
Change your horse halfway through the race?
Oh I know, go in trying to settle a score and wind up nation building?
Am I hearing you right?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 16, 2021 at 17:45#5680960 likes
@Hanover
What do you think about your kid taking a gig in Raleigh?
What do you think about your kid taking a gig in Raleigh?
I'm thinking I don't really know what you're talking about. But, if he did get a gig in Raleigh, I would tell him to have a good time in Raleigh. If Durham, I'd say for him to have a good time there. If Charlotte, fuck Charlotte, I wouldn't speak to him.
Did you know they have white squirrels in Brevard. True story. Those aren't rabbits running up the trees, but a strange genetic makeup up there. If he went to Brevard, I'd tell him to look for the squirrels. It's near Ashville where the liberals live.
I am thinking I don't really know what you're talking about. But, if he did get a gig in Raleigh, I would tell him to have a good time in Raleigh. If Durham, I'd say for him to have a good time there. If Charlotte, fuck Charlotte, I wouldn't speak to him.
Let me rephrase it.
If one were to move across the country, what degree of culture shock there would be between Arizona and North Carolina?
:eyes:
If one were to move across the country, what degree of culture shock there would be between Arizona and North Carolina?
None probably. The weather's better in Raleigh. It's the South, but a pretty sophisticated area with the research triangle with UNC, Chapel Hill, and Duke. It's educated and affluent for the most part I would think. If he likes to hike, I like the mountains on the east coast, the Appalachians, and the waterfalls and such on this side of the globe as opposed to that hot desert rocky terrain near you. I'm an east coast sort of person, though, so I'm biased.
With all the universities, I'm sure there all sorts of trendy bars and things that don't interest me much anymore. Also, while not real nearby (a few hours), he's a daytrip to the coast of SC, so there's a nearby beach and DC is probably 4 or so hours away.
It won't be like he'll be out in the boonies out in the country away from civilization. That's where I'm hoping to be.
I believe the US is pretty much divided into interstate exits where every few miles it goes Walmart, Home Depot, sports bar, fast food restaurants, gas stations, repeat until you get out to where they stopped doing that. Rest assured though, it will slowly creep to every exit across the country.
Reply to Noble Dust I recommend pkhali, and chashushuli. The latter is full of fenugreek so tastes kind of Indian. Of course there’s khachapuri and khinkali, but there’s much more to Georgian food than that. I’m not massively keen on khinkali personally.
This is actually a real thing: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/yes-giant-technicolor-squirrels-actually-roam-forests-southern-india-180971886/
A full page of posts about different types of squirrels and how they rank and now branching out into rodents in general. This is exactly the type of thing the Shoutbox was designed for.
I've figured out what nostalgia is all about. It's that when you look back, you experience the past with the comfort of knowing that you survived that epoch, so everything is sweeter and there's no worry, even if it was really total shit.
BTW, there was a black squirrel in my back yard this afternoon. Or, it was a white squirrel in black face. Probably putting on a menstrual show tonight.
No, not yet. I just enjoy Georgia from afar by going to their restaurants and reading about Stalin.
When you go to a Geotgia restaurant, get the meat loaf, collards, mac and cheese, and go for the cornbread over the biscuit. You can read from the Penny Pincher newspaper and find yourself a deal on a used washing machine. And so you know, that's not iced maple syrup in the glass next to you. That's your tea.
Somebody I've known for a long time just died of covid.
He didn't believe in vaccines.
Frank your posts are usually witty observations...
This post took my breath away :scream:
In my worst nightmare NicK is that man.
But that doesn't change shit. Still refuses to get Vaccinated AFTER being on a ventilator.
DNR and DNI being signed this week.
I'm getting old my friend :worry:
When you go to a Geotgia restaurant, get the meat loaf, collards, mac and cheese, and go for the cornbread over the biscuit. You can read from the Penny Pincher newspaper and find yourself a deal on a used washing machine. And so you know, that's not iced maple syrup in the glass next to you. That's your tea.
You forgot to note that you should never, never, never order the mashed potatoes.
l would tell him to stop screwing around and get it. It leaves a hole in your life when someone you care about dies.
I know you know that I have been trying to get him to get the Vaccine ad nauseam. I have finally had to give up, not without a fight I assure you.
But I cannot change him, all I can do is prepare for the worst while living the best we can.
It's a tragic choice this I know and it leaves me feeling absolutely helpless yet again.
I'm not sure about you but I don't know that I have another round in me.
In many ways I have to prepare for life alone.
Hey Tiff, that is hard to live with. I managed to persuade Mrs un, with gentle persistence and patient respect.
It is such a tragedy that good people make bad choices because the ubiquity of bullshit leads to paranoia.
At it times it feels like a very selfish decision which can lead to resentment if not checked at the door.
Un, my mentor, my sage, please tell me that the last year of hell has been worth it even if he ultimately flipps me and the world off?
I know...there is nothing I can do to change him.
So is my only choice to watch him make choices that have the potential to have deadly consequences?
My heart literally can't take it. As I sit here in the privacy of my son's car in the parking lot of the corner market, tears just will not stop falling.
Surely there are others in this world who are up against this, if so please shed any thoughts that might make the decision to not get vaccinated easier for me to understand. If you so choose.
:flower:
Sounds great, but I just don't know if there's time in this life for two Georgias. I have to choose.
At some point it seems inevitable that Georgia will invade Georgia. There's just too much resentment, confusion, ambiguity, identity uncertainty, trademark infringement, and Google Maps issues that I can't see this ending well.
At it times it feels like a very selfish decision which can lead to resentment if not checked at the door.
Un, my mentor, my sage, please tell me that the last year of hell has been worth it even if he ultimately flipps me and the world off?
I know...there is nothing I can do to change him.
So is my only choice to watch him make choices that have the potential to have deadly consequences?
My heart literally can't take it. As I sit here in the privacy of my son's car in the parking lot of the corner market, tears just will not stop falling.
Surely there are others in this world who are up against this, if so please shed any thoughts that might make the decision to not get vaccinated easier for me to understand. If you so choose.
I feel for you, Tiff. And I don’t really have an answer for you. Not from where I am. Just an uncommon viewpoint.
In a corner of the world that has seen zero community transmission of COVID, where the restrictions that others have been subjected to for more than a year have been no more than an occasional and minor inconvenience, and COVID deaths are literally a world away, I consider myself beyond fortunate, here. It’s so easy for us to be blasé about vaccination. But I am (finally) booked in for my first jab in a couple of weeks.
I watched my sister wrestle with a decision that uprooted her family (including two toddlers) from this safe seclusion to a major international hub, keeping her family together while her husband salvaged their family business after his father died there of COVID. They all got their jabs overseas while I was still too young to be eligible here.
I wonder if some people by now have forgotten what it was like to live without all these restrictions and deaths, or if they’re already ignoring them as far as they can get away with it - like sticking to the speed limit. They compartmentalise the threat, convincing themselves that less obvious risk equals no risk. But I think they’ve forgotten what ‘no risk’ looks and feels like.
Here, mask equals risk. We see in the news every day how easily it escalates out of control, so when the government says ‘lock down’, we do it for three days, and then we’re back to our freedom. If you knew how freely we live here now, you’d probably be horrified - but our risk in the community is as close to zero as it can be. We vaccinate not to stay alive, but because we miss the rest of the world. We miss our family members, for whom the threat is real, and who’ve given up trying to get home. You deserve to be enjoying this as much as we do.
It’s a guilty pleasure to always see smiles on the faces of those around me, or feel comfort in a room full of people. I try not to take it for granted.
please shed any thoughts that might make the decision to not get vaccinated easier for me to understand. If you so choose.
I know you know about medicines prescribed to make money for drug companies that do people harm. I know you know that governments lie and cover up when things go wrong. So what is one to do? I nor you are experts to know that this time 'they' are not exploiting and lying. You are experiencing the damaging effect of social dishonesty, which is that talk loses meaning. We have had 100 years of Dr Foul's new and improved bullshit meter, guaranteed to detect untruth, bla bla bla, and now no one believes anything, and communication becomes impossible because valueless. It even infects your relationship, because one or other of you has been duped by 'them', even though you are honest with each other. All I have is an old song.
So is my only choice to watch him make choices that have the potential to have deadly consequences?
So is the choice to get vaccinated: it has the potential to have deadly consequences. People have died from the vaccine, some became maimed after suffering a stroke after vaccination.
Do you expect that a person should believe that they have Luck on their side and that they are definitely not going to be the one to get the bad side effects from the vaccine? This is going to be especially hard to believe for a person who has already experienced that Luck isn't on their side in medical issues.
Given that the placebo effect is real, an argument can be made that believing that the vaccine is safe and effective can induce the placebo effect, thus making the vaccine safer and more effective than it would be without such a belief. Why not make use of the placebo effect, right? It's just that one cannot make oneself believe things at will just like that.
This is a time of fear and despair. In such times, people tend to jump to conclusions, make generalizations, and are optimistic in ways where they would be cautious otherwise.
Anyway, European governments have, again, realized that threats and coercion are the best method to get people vaccinated. Like France, where all health workers must be vaccinated, or they don't get paid. And there are numerous restrictions for the unvaccinated all over the EU. The choice is now between risking the socio-economic consequences of not being vaccinated and risking the negative side effects from the vaccine. Covid itself is less and less of an issue.
I'm just saying look at the things and people in your life as if it's the last time you'll ever see them.
That was the last thing you wanted me to hear from you? You should have been nicer. Had I just died, then I'd spend the rest of eternity with a clarification of a TPF post floating around in my eternal mind.
We've always thrown our anchor into an arbitrary point in the sea to keep us from crashing about and we've created wonderful myths explaining why the anchor must only be at that point.
We've always found truth through our fictions. Today is only different from shortly before because we don't share a mythology and the paradigm is shifting a few degrees. We're just cycling about as we always have.
It's not the same thing. When crossing the street, you don't actually think of it in terms of risks, do you? I don't. I doubt anyone does.
I usually don't entertain probabilistic reasoning when deciding about things. I decide based on value, importance, not on some projected likelihood of a particular outcome. That's how I do a lot of things that by some objective calculation have a low chance of succeeding.
But I become cautious when someone puts forward a projected likelihood of a particular outcome and claims that since the probability of something going wrong is low, it's okay to go ahead and do it; or more, that I must therefore do it. I hate to gamble on important things.
So, clearly it has nothing to do with the hardness of the science. It has to do with the intrusion of touchy-feely girly-man stuff into the bastion of maleness.
In the "The importance of psychology" thread, which made me think of:
If I remember correctly, this is the source that brought the phrase "girly man" to public notice, at least in the US. First use at about one minute in.
We've always thrown our anchor into an arbitrary point in the sea to keep us from crashing about and we've created wonderful myths explaining why the anchor must only be at that point.
We've always found truth through our fictions. Today is only different from shortly before because we don't share a mythology and the paradigm is shifting a few degrees. We're just cycling about as we always have.
People are funny when they're mad... wonder why...
It's a good observation.
I know my indians like to push my buttons and I imagine it is amusing to them. :starstruck:
BUT I do have a long memory for paybacks and make it abundantly clear that it is payback.
It's a pretty lively debate here at the ranch especially when it gets political but I am up for change, usually.
I let them get excited, take a mile of humor out of a moment of absurdity and then, just so they don't forget who is the parent, I drop the mic with what has been described as being "savage" in nature on my closing comment. :joke:
I know them, I know their story :100:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 19, 2021 at 15:28#5694141 likes
At some point it seems inevitable that Georgia will invade Georgia. There's just too much resentment, confusion, ambiguity, identity uncertainty, trademark infringement, and Google Maps issues that I can't see this ending well.
In an ideal world this would inspire others, leading Moscow, Kansas to invade Moscow, Russia, for example.
In an ideal world this would inspire others, leading Moscow, Kansas to invade Moscow, Russia, for example.
In fact it does very mildly annoy me when I'm looking for information about a place and Google gives me information about some American city. Recently I went to Sain Petersburg and when I was looking for information, Google wanted to tell me about some place in Florida.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 19, 2021 at 15:46#5694230 likes
In an ideal world this would inspire others, leading Moscow, Kansas to invade Moscow, Russia, for example.
Dude, I was 16 flying home to Chicago from AZ and my Mom asked me to call her during a layover.
I barely had time to deplane, find a payphone and called her and said that I made it to Kansas! And just like Dorthy we are about to take off in horrible weather :yikes:
All I could hear her saying was "You aren't in Kansas! You're in Kansas City!"
And Freaking the fuck out about getting back on the plane that took me to the wrong state?
Yeah, I calmed down on the plane but for a moment, I was a woman without a state.
In fact it does very mildly annoy me when I'm looking for information about a place and Google gives me information about some American city. Recently I went to Sain Petersburg and when I was looking for information, Google wanted to tell me about some place in Florida.
There's a Rome, Athens, and Dublin, Georgia. In fact, the American cities were the original ones and they were named this way after the European cities were. That something could have been the original yet postdated another is part of American exceptionalism you likely don't understand.
St. Petersburg, FL is much nicer than whatever the hell Russia has going on. Not sure where one might get fresh oysters in St. Petersburg, Russia, but I could find you some in Florida.
Really? They always tell me not to deplane until the unbuckle seat belt light comes on. Otherwise, I'd just pop up the minute the plane hit the ground and run for the door like all the other excited travelers.
Not sure where one might get fresh oysters in St. Petersburg, Russia, but I could find you some in Florida.
I didn't have oysters when I was there, because I found an excellent Israeli restaurant, and I'd never been to an Israeli restaurant before, so I ate there every day. And of course, they didn't serve oysters. America also beats Russia on tacos and chowder.
Really? They always tell me not to deplane until the unbuckle seat belt light comes on. Otherwise, I'd just pop up the minute the plane hit the ground and run for the door like all the other excited travelers.
As a joke I was going to say that we use the word "unboard" in British English, but it turns out we actually do.
We've always thrown our anchor into an arbitrary point in the sea to keep us from crashing about and we've created wonderful myths explaining why the anchor must only be at that point.
Nice metaphor. I won't upvote it because you're clearly already paying someone off to do that.
Driving thru, you can stop to have alook at the rock in a cage.
Here are pictures of Massachusetts' famous apocryphal rock.
Note that we keep ours in a fake Greek temple rather than a cage. That just shows you how much more we revere inauthentic history than they do in Kansas.
I didn't have oysters when I was there, because I found an excellent Israeli restaurant, and I'd never been to an Israeli restaurant before, so I ate there every day.
Oysters aren't kosher, so you won't find them in Jewish restaurant. The reason they're not kosher is because they don't chew their cud and they don't have cloven hoofs. Pigs aren't kosher because they don't have gills or scales. Hummus is kosher as long as it's killed in the ritualistically correct way.
Oysters aren't kosher, so you won't find them in Jewish restaurant. The reason they're not kosher is because they don't chew their cud and they don't have cloven hoofs. Pigs aren't kosher because they don't have gills or scales. Hummus is kosher as long as it's killed in the ritualistically correct way.
Keeping in mind that 30% of the people on the forum get all their knowledge about Jewish culture from you.
Keeping in mind that 30% of the people on the forum get all their knowledge about Jewish culture from you.
I think whatever befalls a person who relies upon the comments posted by a random guy off the internet with an avatar of the town drunk from Mayberry is justified.
But what is the converse of "deplane"? To get on a plane is not to "plane". It's all too confusing.
I don't know, but I do like the word "degloving." It creates a neat visual, as in, "Jethro wasn't paying attention to the belt in the corn dehusker and the thing just about degloved his hand, arm, shoulder, neck and torso." Sounds like that would have stung a day or two, right?
I got vaccinated with Sputnik V. Side-effects so far:
Temperature of around 39 Celsius for a few hours, beginning 12 hours after the injection
Indigestion (although this may have been caused by eating too much pork at the barbecue later the same day)
Pissing every half hour throughout the night (similarly, this may have been caused by drinking too much non-alcoholic beer, which seems to have a delayed effect on the bladder compared to regular beer)
No fecal discharge since Friday (and despite all that pork--but again I can't pin this on the vaccine with certainty)
Reply to Shawn Thank you for this. I will now explain to my gentile friends some more about Judaism.
Pig will be kosher when the messiah comes. https://jewinthecity.com/2019/09/when-moshiach-comes-will-bacon-and-pork-be-kosher/
For that reason, every Jew keeps a package of bacon in his glove box in his car in case the end of times hits around brekky time. The package is taken to the rebuilt temple (located at One Holy Temple Plaza, Jerusalem, IS) and it is fried to crispy perfection. It is then, and only then, that the era of eternal happiness is ushered in.
Now I know about pigs and the coming of times when they shalt be allowed to be eaten.
That book is actually not a Jewish book, but a book about Messianic Judaism (aka Jews for Jesus). It's Christianity. Jews, while not agreeing on much else universally, do pretty much universally deny the divinity of Jesus.
That is, that book fails under my stringent standard of being 30% Jewish accurate.
But what kind of unoriginal dimwit names the place they arrive the same as the place they set out from?
According to Wikipedia:
John Smith named the area Plymouth (after the city in South West England) and the region 'New England' during his voyage of 1614 (the accompanying map was published in 1616). It was a later coincidence that, after an aborted attempt to make the 1620 trans-Atlantic crossing from Southampton, the "Mayflower" finally set sail for America from Plymouth, England.
John Smith named the area Plymouth (after the city in South West England) and the region 'New England' during his voyage of 1614 (the accompanying map was published in 1616). It was a later coincidence that, after an aborted attempt to make the 1620 trans-Atlantic crossing from Southampton, the "Mayflower" finally set sail for America from Plymouth, England.
For the sake if accuracy, I cite the rest of the Wiki article:
"Following the arrival at Plymouth, a now defunct auto manufacturer was established, having produced a mini-station wagon called the Volare. The vehicle was purchased by the Hanover clan and used for a few years until discarded due to its unreliability."
Shockingly specific and accurate Wiki article, right?
Assuming Neitzche posted the following regarding the death of God:
"When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one's feet. This morality is by no means self-evident… Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole.”
I'd have responded:
The faithful do not live within the ruins of God's cemetery, and are confused by the distant wails of those mourners, wondering why they don't just resurrect the eternal god they killed, whose return can be effected by a simple act of the will.
Is Truth so important that it should replace Meaning, justifying the desolation that results?
Reply to Hanover "What year did Plymouth Volare come out?
1976
With so much going wrong, the new compacts couldn't arrive soon enough. At the end of 1975—a disastrous year in which Chrysler lost $260 million ($1.25 billion in 2021 dollars) and failed to pay a dividend on common stock for the first time since 1933—the 1976 Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare finally made their debut."
I don't think they had infant seats to put little Hanover in, back then. "Originally “child seats” started out as nothing more than burlap sacks with a drawstring that hung over the headrest on the passenger's seat."
When we bought live chickens at a farm, we brought them home in burlap bags. Worked for chickens, worked for kiddies. Just toss the bag in the trunk -- perfectly safe.
K-cars followed the Volare, as in Special K, K Pop, Ketamine...
I may have to turn off the reputation system soon. That's how the majority voted, and more importantly, Hanover is catching up with me.
I've been suspicious of the increase in @Hanover's upvote tally, so I checked. All but three of his upvotes since you reopened the system were from three members - @HughGRection, @Ben Dover, and @HarryPNess.
Did anyone else think Jeff Bezos' trip to space looked a bit crap? He was only up there for about 5 mins. I thought there was supposed to be space tourism with space ships flying through space coming soon....
Did anyone else think Jeff Bezos' trip to space looked a bit crap? He was only up there for about 5 mins. I thought there was supposed to be space tourism with space ships flying through space coming soon....
Yeah as much as I like a good cowboy hat, even as a Space Cowboy, it looked a little cheesey.
I like the idea of getting us closer to exploring another frontier because our time here on Earth cannot sustain a few more million years.
So yes I am totally excited that capatilism is alive and well though it appears a space craft is replacing the yaht and BMW.
In the late 1950s NASA sent monkeys to space, 360 miles above the surface of the earth. 60 years later Jeff Bezos went 60 miles above earth's surface which was not even space. Not impressive, not historic, just a big PR event for him and his company. While the richest man on the planet was undergoing a vanity project, NYC, where I live, was clouded in a haze of smoke stemming from over 100 wildfires in the West Coast brought on by actually historic heat waves and droughts
Most of Minnesota is under a serious air pollution warning from the smoke. Haze, heat, humidity. In 2018, I think it was, the smoke from the western fires swirled down to street level in Minneapolis. It stank from all the non-tree things that had burnt up--cars, houses, roofing, asphalt, etc.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
I believe at this point I have posted sufficiently that someone could take all my prior posts and create a tome of Hanoverian sayings, along with scholarly commentary, so that the general public would have better access to the profundity that is me.
I open the floor for bids to take on this project, which I would expect will reward you with great esteem, but not financial gain, as you do understand, that will be retained by me. Self promotion, after all, is an integral part of the Hanoverian system.
And what gives credence to my greatness is that the word "Hanoverian" does not get caught by spell-check, meaning it's already a household word.
time you said to be thankful to people who show you what you're good at. I still think about that one.
I don't remember saying that, but what I did when I read that was to go back through my old posts and gain wisdom from the things I've forgotten, making me my own teacher. When you're operating at a level as high as me, you can only learn from yourself. I suppose this is how God learns. He reads from his own Bible.
For real though, it's interesting to see how one's own attitudes, demeanor, and worldview evolves over time. I wonder if people consciously register these shifts in themselves or others.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Now please tell us that you didn't learn that from Twilight!
Reply to Hanover
I don't think wisdom accumulates. I think it comes and goes, so everyone could benefit from reading a past post or journal.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 22, 2021 at 15:32#5705230 likes
During the summer when I don't have school, I watch people's ranches because I can care for just about any animal big or small and a lot of locals want to get out of the heat. In fact I am typing this out as I take a break from exercising in the pool.
Anyway, I have a couple of clients that are international travelers, one has been trying to get back to France to see family as she knows as her Parkinson's gets worse, her travel will become limited. She usually travels for three weeks at a time and she flipped out over the COVID 19 Vaccination mandate that goes into effect in less than 2 weeks. She said that the government said no vaccination, no food!!!
As I thought she was over reacting I did a quick look and there is a nugget of truth in what she says. Nugget
Probably not. Btw, even people who are vaccinated are getting the delta, so vaccination doesn't stop transmission. It keeps people from getting really sick, tho.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 22, 2021 at 21:27#5706111 likes
NicK has decided to get the COVID 19 Vaccination. :pray:
Amazed at what I am discovering on combining thoughts from different TPF threads - short stories, postmodernism, art - the mix of a who a person is, their voice. Bookmarked for self.
Janice Galloway’s first novel, The Trick is to Keep Breathing (1989), was widely acclaimed and is now regarded as a Scottish contemporary classic. Written in the form of a diary, the novel follows a school teacher who falls into depression after the death of her lover. Galloway’s work is notable for giving a voice to the experience of working-class women, and like Kelman and Gray, she is representative of Scottish postmodernism. Aside from novels and short stories she has also collaboratively written an opera, two memoirs, and three cross-discipline works with the sculptor Anne Bevan.
More here:
https://www.janicegalloway.net/about-janice-galloway
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff
I meant the beginning of the pandemic. I was being kind of ironic. Our ancestors did wars and depressions. We did a minor pandemic. I don't know, it's hard to judge.
I meant the beginning of the pandemic. I was being kind of ironic. Our ancestors did wars and depressions. We did a minor pandemic. I don't know, it's hard to judge.
The first wave of the pandemic or the latest one?
Our ancestors dealt with this in America. My Grandmother was a Nurse during the Polio outbreak as well as another. My Uncle keeps reminding us that we come from a long legacy of service to our fellow man.
What are the symptoms of the people who are coming in with?
Are you afforded mental health care?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 23, 2021 at 23:45#5709480 likes
Reply to Maw Thank you for noticing. Sometimes it feels like we are always on the opposite sides of the topic except personal health.
I appreciate that about you. :flower:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 23, 2021 at 23:52#5709520 likes
Guess what a G6 Pontiac cannot do...
It cannot keep enough weight on the tires to the road while keeping the engine running through the oversized puddle.
Yes, my indian and I sat in the car, in the middle of the intersection , blocking every lane without a tow hook to save our lives. Plenty of men with big trucks to help but nothing to grab onto.
Cowboy walked up, said pop up the hood and he looped the tow strap around some solid part of the engine and we are out!
Now we are back at the ranch with the power out and it won't be back on until midnight.
Hope you all stay safe :flower:
What are the symptoms of the people who are coming in with?
Covid symptoms are all over the spectrum, so we do a lot of testing. I don't get involved unless they need help with breathing or oxygenation. At this point, just about everyone who's coming in for Covid isn't vaccinated. A handful are, but they're not bad.
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff Two of my sisters had polio in the early 1950s, one a severe case with paralysis requiring extensive surgery and rehab, the other a mild case without significant consequences.
Polio killed many people over time, but nowhere near as fast as Covid has. Of the 57,628 polio cases reported in 1952, 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis. Since it appeared in late 2019 or early 2020, of 34,000,000 US cases, 610,000 died. In the US, at least, the death rate is higher for polio (less than 6%) than for Covid (less than 2%). Worldwide, 4,000,000+ have died, out of about 200,000,000 cases--about a 2% death rate.
Polio has almost been extinguished, except in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and a couple of places in Africa where lunatic Islamic leaders are against vaccination. Covid has proven itself to be a year round infection (no summer time holiday for it) and has produced two extra-problematic variants, Beta (South Africa) and Delta (India). How many more letters in the alphabet will be needed is anyone's guess.
Polio benefitted from research and an excellent public relations campaign. People coughed up money for the March of Dimes (AKA the Infantile Paralysis Association) and got vaccinated as soon as the Salk shot was available, and later the Sabin oral vaccine. Covid-19 suffered from bad PR from the start and political manipulation for entirely personal purposes by Donald Trump et al, may they burn in Hell. (Or at the very least, be subject to several preventable diseases in Purgatory. Let's say, AIDS, Hepatitis B & C, Polio, and Smallpox.)
Reply to Manuel Through the video camera icon that shows up just above the message field. If it's not showing up on your screen, it might be a feature only available for subscribers.
It always amazed me. I turned 50 almost 20 years ago and AARP has never contacted me. I think they may have heard my mental age is still 17.
Mmhmm ....
I'm wondering if my "friends" are at work here.
I'm getting advertisements for final resting places!
Which reminds me of this cool marketing campaign this cemetery uses in Chicago for at least the last 40 years.
There is a simple black on white billboard that says "Don't feel like you have to hurry. We will be here."
:death:
Reply to T ClarkReply to ArguingWAristotleTiff When you get into your 70s and 80s, university foundations which had previously ignored you become quite chatty -- given the chances of actually having some money and being likely to croak soon. They are not interested in healthy working people. Not time to harvest yet.
As for AARP, it is a major miracle (up there with changing water into wine) that they haven't contacted you, since they apparently budget 50 pounds of junk mail to everyone over... what, 45? 50?
I think moderators should establish a rule that anyone who uses "sigh" as a response to a post is automatically banned.
Wouldn't it be more inclusive if we instead nominated a current emoticon to signify a "sigh"?
Unless of course it isn't really the "sigh" so much as it is the disappointment of the lack of the others understanding, lack of validation or maybe the lack of motivation to beat your head against the wall again after a simple interaction?
Just curious :grin:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 25, 2021 at 16:09#5716820 likes
Wouldn't it be more inclusive if we instead nominated a current emoticon to signify a "sigh"?
Unless of course it isn't really the "sigh" so much as it is the disappointment of the lack of the others understanding, lack of validation or maybe the lack of motivation to beat your head against the wall again after a simple interaction?
Just curious
Let me explain. It's simple. I like to hear myself talk (or watch myself write) and I hadn't in a while, so I wrote my post, as I do with many of them, with no purpose or justification except to say "Hey, look at me."
Let me explain. It's simple. I like to hear myself talk (or watch myself write) and I hadn't in a while, so I wrote my post, as I do with many of them, with no purpose or justification except to say "Hey, look at me."
I like that explanation! It's genuine and accurate for almost all of us here on one level or another. :sparkle:
I am sitting here, resting my bones. Wasting time. Watching you watching me.
My name is Otis. I should be sitting on the dock of the bay * whistles*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug
Reply to TheMadFool
You are lucky if you can sleep throughout the nights every single day. I need the lights in the night to read my phone if I can't sleep. I thought that you would need the lights being the true twilight philosopher, or perhaps you thrive in the shadows of the gothic underworld.
You are lucky if you can sleep throughout the nights every single day. I need the lights in the night to read my phone if I can't sleep. I thought that you would need the lights being the true twilight philosopher, or perhaps you thrive in the shadows of the gothic underworld.
We need lights during the day because there are places we have to be where the sun doesn't shine. We need lights during the night because we don't always sleep when darkness falls.
I need the lights in the night to read my phone if I can't sleep
Back to the phone...
Does reading the phone help you get off to sleep - or does it stimulate you ?
I'm like that with a book I can't put down. Really annoying...
It's OK if you don't have a job to get up for...no harm done...only self-harm (negative health impact).
Have you tried listening rather than reading ?
I can give 2 examples:
Set radio with timer to shut off after 40, 60 or 90 mins. ( some investment )
Librivox audio files ( free downloads )
Then there's this on how to mitigate the effects of Blue Light:
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/bedroom-environment/blue-light
And so on...
:yawn:
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 26, 2021 at 16:50#5720980 likes
Hey, I did an antibody test and it was negative. I'm getting a booster this afternoon.
Fuckity fuck fuck fuck!
Please know that you don't have to answer any of the following questions :sparkle:
Okay, where did you get the antibody test?
Which Covid-19 Vaccination did you get?
When did you get the vaccine?
Did you have COVID 19 illness either before or after your vaccination?
Mmmmggggggrrrrrmmmmm .
What do I do if I have to travel to the East coast?
NicK needs to be Vaccinated Asap but I told him to prepare for feeling shitty. Now it is about scheduling down time.
My eldest indian is willing to get vaccinated, now it's a matter of convinence. Since he is putting on 3 shows a weekend with people from 21-44 years old, selling out thousands of tickets.
They have had to deal with the monsoons interrupting their shows on delay and one cancelled half way through.
Reply to Amity
I find that listening to music on headphones is a far better way of copying when not being able to sleep than writing on a phone.I find dance music good for meditating when I can't sleep. My consciousness dances into unknown dimensions.
Okay, where did you get the antibody test?
Which Covid-19 Vaccination did you get?
When did you get the vaccine?
Did you have COVID 19 illness either before or after your vaccination?
I've been in a study through my doctor. I do an antibody test every month and they get a picture of the test results. The tests have always shown that I have the long term antibodies (there are two kinds, short and long term). This month the test was negative.
Your doctor could probably test you if you want.
I got the Pfizer 1st and 2nd shots last December and January, so I've been vaccinated for about 7 months. Other people I know who are in the study are still showing up positive, so it may just be me.
Delta is becoming predominant in the US. If my experience is normal, your family will be safe for about 7 months at least after vaccination.
Be aware that if you get it, there's a drug you can get through your doctor that has been shown to stop the progression. It's made of antibodies, I think. I'll get the name.
No, no. I'm a different one. That one just reminds me of another one... we're going through some difficulties. Doesn't mean they still aren't taken though.
He doesn't write with a lot of emotion. In the book the Red and the Black, Julien writes letters... I forget what about, maybe in search of a financial sponsor? But he writes in run on, broken sentences with errors to imply strong emotion.
My avatar isn't a puffball, thank you. It's some sort of Eurasian tit that j@jamalrob is better at identifying than I am because it's from his half of the land. But it's also my spirit bird, thank you.
I heard it wouldn't work anyway. I'm on the market for a better one currently. The rings don't work on anyone above level 13 anyway, they're kind of useless.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 29, 2021 at 13:36#5730310 likes
Has anyone here received Botox injections?
Curious what your position on the COVID-19 vaccination is...
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 29, 2021 at 13:46#5730330 likes
As of July 30th, 70k families in Arizona will be affected/evicted with the eviction moratorium coming to an end.
Is that a unintentional consequence of the support? I don't think so. I think it has been a totally foreseeable outcome to some degree. We could argue about to what degree but that is really not where my rub is.
My rub is why can't prioritize our US citizens to be hosted in local hotels BEFORE we host undocumented, asylum seekers?
We can but it is going to take courage. The courage to take care of our own while we try to care about everyone.
Maybe get the money to do that from cracking down on offshore tax havens instead of taking it from the vulnerable and the desperate. I mean the false choice here is glaring. You're the richest country in the world. You can sort your shit out without making the most needy suffer ffs.
Maybe get the money to do that from cracking down on offshore tax havens instead of taking it from the vulnerable and the desperate. I mean the false choice here is glaring. You're the richest country in the world. You can sort your shit out without making the most needy suffer ffs.
This response really makes no sense. Every country evicts tenants who don't pay rent. If they don't, landlords have to provide housing for free, which is exactly what has been going on during the Covid moratorium. There is government housing and there are government programs for rent assistance, but the burden should not be on random landlords that happen to have tenants that can't pay. It's not like landlords are this rich class of people that can afford to provide social security to the general public.
You also can't make the assumption that these evictions will result in homelessness. It's likely they'll result in having to move to lower income housing or moving in with someone else. Of course, if it means homelessness, like I said, there are avenues for government assistance, which don't include forcing landlords to take in free renters.
And keep in mind as well, the rent moratorium was a benevolent gesture, where the government did in fact see to it that people were taken care of. That special assistance was provided during a pandemic doesn't mean that forever forward people get to live rent free in someone else's home.
VagabondSpectreJuly 29, 2021 at 17:02#5730830 likes
Eviction moratoriums are easy to do because they threaten only marginal impact on few corporate bottom lines.
But heaven forbid we interfere with a pristine wild-refuge of the ultra-rich...
For they are an endangered and easily spookable specie; should they be forced to speculate against their own shadow before third-quarter, they might just decide to up and take flight, like some majestic and farcical phoenix bird, dripping fire and acid below on entitled landlords and tenants alike.
It's the interweaving of asylum seekers into the issue I was objecting to there, primarily. The rent moratorium debate should not be yet another opportunity to blame 'them' for taking from 'us'.
VagabondSpectreJuly 29, 2021 at 17:59#5731080 likes
Reply to Baden Never underestimate the white man's ability to free-style drum-beat on the subject of caravans.
But heaven forbid we interfere with a pristine wild-refuge of the ultra-rich...
Average landlord salary in US: https://www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-landlord. Are these the ultra-rich?
VagabondSpectreJuly 29, 2021 at 18:16#5731210 likes
Reply to Hanover Absolutely not, which is why instead of bailing out Disney, cuz jobs or whatever, Disney et all should pay more taxes. Tenants and landlords alike are handy economic buffers to preserve the stocks and stakes of those with runaway levels of wealth. (The kind of wealth that you keep in a tax shelter/haven, or spend on lobbying to save or make money elsewhere).
Previously not-noticed factoid: "Bullshit" (with the contemporary meaning) was added to the language around 1910. So... How did people get along without this indispensable term before then? What was it about the early 20th century that required this term?
So... How did people get along without this indispensable term before then?
They probably used terms like
hogwash
falderol
flapdoodle
Or my favorite that should have made a comeback a few years ago but failed to do so, trumpery
VagabondSpectreJuly 30, 2021 at 00:44#5732890 likes
Reply to Bitter Crank "Bull", meaning nonsense, has been in use since the 17th, it was conjugated with "shit" around 1910, and became popular as such during the second world war. "Bullshit-artist" was apparently the fully formed idiom at the time.
The era of blustering politicians spewing pure ideological drivel, sending young men to go kill other young men, giving other blustery politicians an excuse to send other young men to go kill those young men. The term definitely feels like a fit.
Flim-flammery, hum-buggery, and jiggery-pokery are objectively the best ones...
...
But if the 20th was so terrible that it managed to kill whimsy itself (evidenced by the lost linguistic gems mentioned above), turning everything to shit, what sort of stronger term might we require in the 21st, where any lasting public discourse exists in pure flashing neon hyperbole?
The era of blustering politicians spewing pure ideological drivel, sending young men to go kill other young men, giving other blustery politicians an excuse to send other young men to go kill those young men. The term definitely feels like a fit.
This has been going on since Noah walked down the gangway and will likely still be going on when our machine overlords finally take over. And maybe after.
"Bull", meaning nonsense, has been in use since the 17th,
Interesting, where did you find that. I had a discussion about bullshit a while ago and looked up the word, but never found that. The earliest use I found for it was as in forceful from the 1800's.
Flim-flammery, hum-buggery, and jiggery-pokery are objectively the best ones...
I had always wanted to use balderdash, but never found a opportunity to do so until a few years ago at a diplomatic party I was invited to. After a bottle of white wine I asked the ambassador why he had pronounced a speech with so much balderdash in it about the local government. He laughed and said it was because they are not allowed to lie. "More balderdash" I murmured. I was never invited to another party.
Reply to Sir2u "Hogwash" has served well, maybe as well as bullshit since the mid 15th century: from hog + wash; the original sense was ‘kitchen swill for pigs’. So hogwash references what goes into a pig rather than what comes out.
Pig shit is considerably smellier than bullshit, and both pork and beef producers will tell you that pig or bull shit "smells like profit".
"Bull", meaning nonsense, has been in use since the 17th,
Well, "bull" was in use back then, but not quite in the sense of "bullshit":
bull (n.3)
"insincere, trifling, or deceptive talk," 1914. Popularly associated with roughly contemporary bullshit (n.) in the same sense, and in modern use often felt as a shortened form of it. There seems to have been an identical Middle English word meaning "false talk, fraud," apparently from Old French bole "deception, trick, scheming, intrigue," and perhaps related to modern Icelandic bull "nonsense."
Sais christ to ypocrites ... yee ar ... al ful wit wickednes, tresun, and bull. ["Cursor Mundi," Northumbrian, early 14c.]
There also was an early Modern English verb bull meaning "to mock, cheat," which dates from 1530s.
Bull session is attested from 1920.
Also of uncertain connection with the bull that means "a gross inconsistency in language, a ludicrous blunder involving a contradiction in terms" (1630s), said by the English to be characteristic of the Irish, and thus often called an Irish bull. Sydney Smith defined it as "an apparent congruity, and real incongruity of ideas, suddenly discovered." Three examples attributed to Sir Boyle Roche: "Why should we do anything for posterity, for what, in the name of goodness, has posterity done for us?" ... "It would surely be better, Mr. Speaker, to give up not only a part, but, if necessary, even the whole of our Constitution, to preserve the remainder." ... "The best way to avoid danger is to meet it plump."
It is time to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.
Pig shit is considerably smellier than bullshit, and both pork and beef producers will tell you that pig or bull shit "smells like profit".
Goat shit has no detectable smell and forms in small dry pellets. You can step on it without negative effect, no squeezing between your toes and no malodorous lingering. It's delightful really. It is why you never hear someone use the term "goatshit" in a demeaning way. In fact, should someone make such an attempt, they'd be laughed right out of all proper goat farming circles as someone who simply has no experience with those lovely droppings.
Chicken shit on the other hand isn't as delightful, and so it has formed an understandably poor reputation. In the back of the Hanover estate, I have an area that has been dug down where I discard the chicken shit and wood shavings I clean from the coop. I refer to this hole with a colloquialism you may not be familiar with -- The Shit Hole. Small bugs and worms find this Shit Hole a nurturing dwelling, lending itself to the ironic activity of the chickens returning to their feces to peck out a meal. I say it's ironic because their waste is now their gain.
In any event, thank you for this conversation. I do love to talk shit in the morning.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 30, 2021 at 18:25#5734750 likes
Maybe get the money to do that from cracking down on offshore tax havens instead of taking it from the vulnerable and the desperate. I mean the false choice here is glaring. You're the richest country in the world. You can sort your shit out without making the most needy suffer ffs.
How many people seeking asylum can your county, parish, township handle/absorb daily?
How many people seeking asylum do you think your country can absorb daily?
I am asking for general numbers but numbers none the less.
Our NGO's as generous as they are, have a tipping point and before you tell me that we are some Ivory tower country, I ask you for numbers because we cannot handle the influx.
It sure does appear that this open border asylum seekers being treated "humanly" is no longer an issue because President Biden and Vice President Harris are getting to the "root" of the reasons why the asylum seekers are heading to America instead of trying to stay in their home country.
I know why, do you?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 30, 2021 at 18:30#5734770 likes
Reply to Hanover And Goat shit floats. Important factor if you are down hill from a cattle farm.
Thing is Goats, much like toddlers, can turn attitude on a dime so never turn your back to them. :worry:
Right, so it has nothing to do with the rent moratorium, you just don't want so many asylum seekers around. If so, simply make that argument. No problem with that. My objection is to the political tactic of conflating these issues.
How many people seeking asylum can your county, parish, township handle/absorb daily?
How many people seeking asylum do you think your country can absorb daily?
I am asking for general numbers but numbers none the less.
I live in a small town of a couple of thousand and about 5% of the population are asylum seekers to the best of my knowledge. I don't see any problem handling that. Unfortunately, our local representative is a racist prick, so they probably don't feel very welcome.
How many people seeking asylum can your county, parish, township handle/absorb daily?
How many people seeking asylum do you think your country can absorb daily?
I am asking for general numbers but numbers none the less.
The US, with a population of ~340 million, takes in about 20,000 refugees a year. Germany, with a population of ~83 million, took in 1.4 million refugees between 2015 and 2017.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 30, 2021 at 20:55#5735130 likes
Right, so it has nothing to do with the rent moratorium, you just don't want so many asylum seekers around. If so, simply make that argument. No problem with that. My objection is to the political tactic of conflating these issues.
You are only seeing it in the context of what you are exposed to. We as Arizona residents are being priced out of rentals. It is one of the reasons that my ranch has gone from 2 people to 5.
Okay so I am able to absorb this and Should provide as I can.
Okay now understand that two of my residents are in Phase 4 of the COVID 19 lockdown.
Arizona has made it out of the COVID 19 lockdowns, and mandates out of phase 4.
They are working again.
Less than 10% of asylum seekers (yeah I pulled that % out of my ass and I believe I am being generous) are tested for COVID-19 but are out of DHS care to even receive the results. Where do they go you ask? Onto Gray Hound buses throughout the country.
Knowing that: are you still okay with what we are dealing with?
Finally and the fucking reason I bring up the 70k families that are going to be affected by the rent moratorium and the asylum seekers is quite simple. I watched a man over 70 years old, pushing a grocery cart in 110*, having soiled himself for what looks like weeks, to stop and take a break against the outside of a upscale hotel, not going inside for cool air, water, a shower and a pot to piss in, just to rest.
All the while knowing whom qualifies for those basic necessities of life and who doesn't.
That hotel he was leaning against has been converted to a longer short term place for the government to host asylum seekers.
My tax dollars are going to shelter whom?
AND before @Hanover gets to far into your head, asylum seekers are shuttled in and cared for throughthout application for benefits process.
The US, with a population of ~340 million, takes in about 20,000 refugees a year. Germany, with a population of ~83 million, took in 1.4 million refugees between 2015 and 2017.
Germany's history of acceptance of diversity is (ahem) lacking.
The US, with a population of ~340 million, takes in about 20,000 refugees a year. Germany, with a population of ~83 million, took in 1.4 million refugees between 2015 and 2017.
Sir, we are taking in on average 6.300 people every day.
Please update your numbers.
It is time to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.
Bloody hell, I thought it was by the horns that you grabbed it. My grandfather was attacked by a bull on his farm, he died a few months later. People said that he used to tease the bull by pulling his tail.
Now I am confused.
Grab the tail or the horns? Fuck it, I always keep away from bulls.
Reply to Sir2u Bulls are not like Elsie the cow. Good idea to avoid them.
But then, Elsie the cow had a bull for a father, and she might enjoy kicking, trampling, and goring a human. Cows hurt farmers quite often, with malice and forethought. They look placid, laying in the shade chewing their cud, but that's exactly when they plan their next attack!
Look at that cow: clearly insane -- and she also has an odd growth between her horns.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 31, 2021 at 13:38#5737170 likes
I can link up all day long and the numbers will still be absurdly higher than the 20k annually as suggested.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 31, 2021 at 15:03#5737320 likes
I'm unable to share a direct clip because of some law governing art and the artist's rights BUT that does not prevent me from sharing how absolutely over the moon with pride this Mama is!
My eldest indian that does visuals for 10k's of thousands of people, who has been waiting over a year to return to HUGE interstate shows, was chosen for the closing of one artists on the second night of Lollapalooza.
We got to watch it together live stream on Hulu!
Woo! Hoo! :party:
Next stop: Tomorrowland as a contributing artist this time :point:
Ps Visuals are the computer created, digital art that is behind and surrounding the artist and stage. Lazers are another person as are the pyrotechnics.
Birds don't sing in the summer because they're growing new feathers and they're vulnerable to predators, plus they've already mated and they don't need to be territorial because they're about to start flocking.
When I was 18, I spent the summer alone at my grandfather's house working for a developer. My dinner cuisine consisted of a single rotation - beanie wennies one night followed by beans and hamburger the next. All summer long. Still love beanie weanies. Ketchup, not hot sauce. Also love macaroni and cheese (with Velveeta!), hotdogs, and barbecue sauce.
Do y'all have fried okra up north? If not, what do you eat with collards?
I've never had it up here, but my expertise in Southern cuisine was born in the five months I spent in Tuscaloosa for work. I've had fried okra there. It was fine, but nothing to get excited about. Nothing that a good coating of Velveeta wouldn't cure.
Reply to Hanover My dad's people brought that good old down home "soul food" with them to NYC (Harlem) up from the Carolinas back during the Depression. Love me some fried okra & collards. :yum:
Jack CumminsAugust 04, 2021 at 15:31#5753110 likes
I am really missing the 'Trending' page. I know that the 'likes' was problematic but I am surprised that the trending page has gone too. Perhaps, it was part of the same software. But, it was like being able to read the headlines of a newspaper.
ArguingWAristotleTiffAugust 04, 2021 at 15:49#5753160 likes
I am really missing the 'Trending' page. I know that the 'likes' was problematic but I am surprised that the trending page has gone too. Perhaps, it was part of the same software. But, it was like being able to read the headlines of a newspaper.
I used to get a feed of the members that I *Follow* giving me a personalized newspaper.
I'm not sure it is available because I haven't seen it in a long time but I still get *mention* notification when someone says my name in an @.
Jack CumminsAugust 04, 2021 at 15:59#5753200 likes
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff
Yes, I get a notification if my name is in @ and I do get a thread of the couple of people I follow. It could be that I need to follow more people. I used to follow a few more, but I stopped because I thought that they may think that I was stalking them.
ArguingWAristotleTiffAugust 04, 2021 at 16:31#5753280 likes
I used to follow a few more, but I stopped because I thought that they may think that I was stalking them.
I stalk in the open :eyes:
Oh my the reasons why.... @unenlightened because he is my mentor, my sage @Michael because of his tattoos and nail lacquer oh my @180 Proof because we are opposites on a few topics but the love offered is real. Much like myself people either love him or hate him. You can find me amongst the former @Sir2u because I like to surround myself with people I aspire to be and he is @jamalrob because he is the owner and I like to stay in the loop @Baden because if jamalrob is occupied he is second in command @Paul because without him we might not be together @Banno because we are dear friends and he was my very first wrastle at the old place, plus his better half is an absolute sweetheart @SapientiasLittleHelper because I always have hope of his return @Benkei because we are dear friends across the miles and years @Tobias because he is an incredible writer, amazing explainer and professional teacher @Hanover because he is able to conjugate male to female positions on request and a very treasured friendship that I hope lasts until 15 minutes before I retire because that will likely be 30 minutes before I cease living. @Mayor of Simpleton because he is my e brother, a fantastic listener and like myself has music in his viens.
I miss Kamryn, Mars Man, Apathy Kills, Postmodern Beatnik and sheps.
unenlightenedAugust 04, 2021 at 18:29#5753690 likes
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff All the usual suspects! All irritating, and that's what philosophers like - to be irritated and provoked into thinking anew. But we irritate with a smile, of course.
At some point when Covid is finally over, we need to do an in person meet up, maybe a potluck. I'll bring the bean salad and ambrosia. That's what my Aunt Whatshername used to bring to the gatherings and she always seemed to be in the know.
You need to bring some sort of Bohemian somethingoranother you're always talking about.
The "What’s The Difference In Cult and Religion" discussion has been closed and it's originator, Trey, has been banned. I have no opinion on the banning, although it has not been announced in the "Bannings" discussion. I do wonder why the discussion was closed. It covered a reasonable subject and I did not see anything particularly offensive in the posts.
I am really missing the 'Trending' page. I know that the 'likes' was problematic but I am surprised that the trending page has gone too. Perhaps, it was part of the same software. But, it was like being able to read the headlines of a newspaper.
I actually didn't notice the trending page and wasn't aware I'd turned it off. I guess as you say it's connected with the reputation system.
My roommates are nice people, but there's nothing better than having the place to yourself, sitting on the couch drinking coffee, and reading some weird-ass short stories.
Good. I did have some bad news, but now I feel slightly better knowing that you feel worse
I feel good I made you feel better, which now makes you feel worse because I feel better, which makes me feel worse for making you feel worse, which makes you feel better, and then this goes on forever, like a roller coaster, and I don't like roller coasters, so that makes you feel better, which makes me feel better, which makes you feel worse.
Reply to Hanover How do you prefer to roller? Coasting the roller is too leisurely for me as well, I prefer blading it, or derbying it. Something with a bit more pizzazz.
Those might appear to be similar things, but that is only because I didn't at first realize that, and didn't riff as well off of "roller" as I thought I could.
How do you prefer to roller? Coasting the roller is to leisurely for me as well, I prefer blading it, or derbying it. Something with a bit more pizzazz.
I like to go past the fence to where the roller coaster flips upside down and gets close to the ground. I lie on my back and grab people's hats off their heads as they scream by. They have no idea what happened, but I make out like a bandit, with a huge collection of hats and sometimes eyes scrapings.
Went a different direction with that one. You didn't see that coming.
These one upmanship posts are kind of pathetic; but, I never had an ego to begin with to understand the lush grounds for personal gain or satisfaction by partaking in them.
Reply to Hanover I do love surprises, unless they're of bad things. I don't think that is possible though, seeing as the little bucket seat dealies people are in rotate naturally as the roller coaster coasts. There is no "flipping it upside down"... is there?
I doubt most of this story some how. Purely based on this inconsistency, and nothing else.
There is no "flipping it upside down"... is there?
See the girl with the long hair? I took her little red derby she was wearing. That look of joy turned to sorrow when she got off the roller coaster when she noticed it missing. Her happiness made me sad, which made you happy, which made me happy, which made you sad. Like a roller coaster. Just like a roller coaster.
These one upmanship posts are kind of pathetic; but, I never had an ego to begin with to understand the lush grounds for personal gain or satisfaction by partaking in them.
Nice! That was a good one upsmanship post you just posted. You're good at this. Keep up the good work.
Why do you need a visa? We're just planning a potluck. You trying to move in?
If I go as a Honduran, I need a visa. If I go as an English citizen then I have to give advanced warning of plans to visit.
Last time I was in Miami airport without a visa I had to stay in the airport with a guard looking after me. That was fun because most of the guards were Cuban and by ten at night I was the only one to look after so we were all together. Try to imagine how I looked strolling around the airport with about 15 guards around me. People kept away. :rofl:
You'd have to quarantine in a kennel for 30 days and if no evidence of kennel cough you can go to your forever home if you can find someone to take you in.
Just came back from it. A fun time, but I'm kinda half and half about it. Got any thoughts? The theater I saw it in is kinda shitty, which contributed some. The Green Knight himself was awesome; the creature design reminded me of a Guillermo del Toro vibe.
I started reading the Hitchhiker. I'm one to talk, but it's a little heavy for me right now, couldn't make it through it all... I picked up some wisdom from what I made through, however. Thanks!
Just came back from it. A fun time, but I'm kinda half and half about it. Got any thoughts? The theater I saw it in is kinda shitty, which contributed some. The Green Knight himself was awesome; the creature design reminded me of a Guillermo del Toro vibe.
Don't care about the movie or your theater experience. Sorry, keeping it real. What I do need to know is your favorite movie of all time.
Raisins are actually wine turned back into grapes. The legend is Jesus turned water into wine, but he actually turned wine into raisins and then everyone left the wedding.
I never read this word until today. I searched it in the dictionary and in my language it means “acertijo”. It is so interesting. We can learn something everyday, right?
Here is a good riddler/acertijo:
Blanco como un pergamino y pesa menos que un comino/white as a parchment and weights less than cumin.
I never read this word until today. I searched it in the dictionary and in my language it means “acertijo”. It is so interesting. We can learn something everyday, right?
Here is a good riddler/acertijo:
In the US, "riddler" also has another meaning. "Riddler" (capital "R") is an evil villain in Batman.
I'm in physical therapy for my hip, with an appointment to see an orthopedic surgeon. In honor of that, here's an orthopedic riddle:
What did the orthopedic surgeon say to the bartender?
Well yes, I wanted to say DC. As you see I am pretty ignorant in this field
Your ignorance is no problem. Just keep in mind that comic books are pretty much the only thing most members of the forum read before the age of 16 except for the copies of Playboy and Penthouse their older brothers kept stashed under their mattresses.
Your ignorance is no problem. Just keep in mind that comic books are pretty much the only thing most members of the forum read before the age of 16 except for the copies of Playboy and Penthouse their older brothers kept stashed under their mattresses.
I never read comics. That was a different social group.
Playboy and Penthouse, very 1980s of you. That's child's play today.
Comments (61561)
Does that make Street a munchkin or the tin man?
The US role as the world's policeman is a burden. And if you look at the statistics, there are only around 1000 arrest related deaths per year - from over 10 million arrests. That's 0.01% of arrests in a country where there's a right to bear arms. Personally, I think that indicates extraordinary professionalism. You should maybe unplug from the BLM, PC, neo marxist network of post modern self hatred.
Yeah, the burden of too much oil and strategic control of world resources. And considering the US operates the world's largest gulag system, the issue of state santioned extrajudicial murder is the least of its problems.
This is not the first time we have diverted in my "ideas of morality" over the decades and I doubt it will be the last.
I again am trying to separate a man's career and his personal character.
Not everyone agrees with me and that's okay.
Another example is Bill Cosby.
I fucking love his professional work from his early days on stage, his TV career and the books he has written.
Am I dismissing what happened in his personal life?
Not a chance.
Do you see a difference between the two?
The difference is that Rumsfelds "damage" fell within the scope of his career (though it may have been an extreme) it is still not outside his scope.
Bill Cosby's job was to make people laugh.
His fetish was not any part of the scope of his job.
Ah yes, the most bizarre movie ever made. :up:
You think it was about oil? Maybe back in the 1970's, with OPEC and the energy crisis; but not since then - has any such motive existed. Advances in deep sea drilling technology, to say nothing of fracking, has largely overcome dependence on the middle east as a sole energy source.
I can't decipher the rest of your post. It doesn't seem to make sense. Gulags are a Communist thing - as is state sanctioned extra judicial murder. Particularly of journalists!
Is no-one else going to address that?
Not as weird as Baden and The Chocolate Factory.
First off, I don't judge Rumsfeld as a person at all. I do judge him as a Secretary of Defense - very bad. War criminal? Maybe. I take no pleasure in his death, but if we're going to stop the next guys in line from doing something similar, we can't forget what he, Bush, and all the rest did and the consequences of those actions.
If it's a wicked witch or Osama bin Laden, it's fine.
Ok but did you ever repeatedly lie about WMD's in Iraq in order to justify an illegal war that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's? Did you ever sign a torture memo authorizing "20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing, the use of phobias, and stress positions for up to 4 hours." (he wanted up to 8 hours).
No, Saddam Hussein did not have to go. The world is full of dictators. It's not our job to get rid of them all. It's not in our national interest. It will just make things worse, as we have seen many times.
Quoting counterpunch
This is how it always is. If you destroy an existing political system, especially a dictatorship, really, really bad things will happen. All the tyrannical controls that held opposing interests and ethnic hatreds at bay dissolve and everything goes to shit. Think Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia. That's why you don't start wars unless you have no other choice.
Both the Gene Wilder "Willy Wonka" and "the Wizard of Oz" are mainstream fantasy movies based on famous books. Not weird at all. And they are both wonderful films. They used to show the WoO every year on TV and it was a big event. Everyone watched it together. I remember the first time I saw it on a color TV. Dorothy and Toto came out of the wrecked house into Munchkin Land and...holy crap!! We always loved it in black and white. Seeing it in color was shocking. I bet the people in theaters in 1939 were blown away.
Now then, the Johnny Depp version of WW was...not weird, creepy.
What was the other choice? Continue with sanctions hurting the Iraqi people, while Saddam sold oil on the black market to keep his brutal regime in power, and let him play the hokey-cokey on weapons inspections forever, or until he invaded another neighbouring country? That's not an alternative.
Of course it is, although, as you noted, the sanctions were not effective. We probably should have gotten rid of those too. As everyone knows, Iraq was not pursuing weapons that would threaten the US. Countries in the Middle East warring with each other is not necessarily a national security threat worth of going to war for, and, as we found out, it definitely wasn't.
On other occasions we have exhibited more competence. For instance, after WWII, we successfully helped Germany and Japan put themselves back together. The various programs we launched seemed to have worked fairly well at reaching the intended goal. That was easy, compared to rebuilding Iraq, Syria, or any other mid-eastern nation.
I don't think any other country has this expertise either.
The problem with this kind of analysis is to assume that the US ever had even the slightest intention of solving Iraq's problems, as opposed to using it as nothing but a milking bag for extractive purposes on behalf of the US's corporate clientele. That Iraq has people living there, in whatever state of existence, is an incidental issue.
Then the discourse about Hitler must be revised.
The glib answer is that the war in Iraq was for the US to get their oil. I don't think so. We certainly were not there out of the goodness of our hearts, but damned if I can see a good reason for us invading Iraq. "The Tail Wagging the Dog" seems as good an explanation as any. So the Bush administration had a war to prove their commitment to fight terrorism. Same thing in Afghanistan. Now that we are leaving, the pointlessness of that effort will soon be made manifest.
In the 1940s the US established a central policy objective of always controlling Middle Eastern oil. We have consistently followed that policy in as much as it was possible. There are limits, however, as Iran proved.
I don't know for sure what the future of oil production will be. It will take a quite a long time to get from peak oil to exhausting the supply of oil that can be obtained for less energy than the oil contains--probaby 80 years, or so (off the cuff figure). Global warming should change the game. It should shut the game down, but I doubt if it will (which means bad news for the ongoing climate crisis).
The politically correct argument suggests that the concept of 'country' was the problem; that creating Iraq cut across tribal migration routes - and imposed an unnatural order that could only be maintained by state oppression. But if you search for 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - they are apparently using oil wealth for construction and development, and seemingly headed for modernism and secularism, stable nationhood, and joining the international community.
Saddam Hussein ceased power in 1979 - and it's all downhill from there. He used oil wealth for military ends, and prosecuted territorial disputes with neighbouring countries including Iran, Syria and Kuwait.
The left think it's always our fault, but we built the oil industry at great cost, and left this hugely profitable industry in the hands of the Iraqi state. There was good reason to imagine - that removing Saddam Hussein would see a return to the modern secular normality of the 1970's. The argument Clark makes:
Quoting T Clark
....is wrong. Google 'photos of Iraq from the 1970's' - and see for yourself that Saddam's tyrannical regime was not necessary to supress tribalism, and seething ethnic hatreds at all. I'm so sick of this politically correct self recrimination.
This.
It's a common narrative in the West, that conflicts such as these, and in the former Yugoslavia too, for example, are the expression of ancient ethic differences, now let loose when Saddam or Tito are out of power. It's a facile, and I think cynical and condescending, narrative.
35 countries disagreed with your 20/20 hindsight view, and thought the removal of Saddam Hussein was necessary. These include countries in the region, that certainly were threatened by Saddam's possession - and use of chemical weapons.
Chemical weapons were employed by Iraqi forces against Iranian combatants and non-combatants during the Iran–Iraq war (1980–1988). These have been classified based on chemical composition and casualty-producing effects.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against_Iran
And jamlrob agrees - so that's conclusive:
Quoting jamalrob
Hear, hear!
Which 35 countries? Those that were part of the multi-national force? No countries in the region were part of that. And I'd argue that 35 countries disagreed for political reasons while mass demonstrations in at least every European country made rather clear what people actually thought : they believed Hans Blix.
So everyone already knew but... politics happened.
Quoting jamalrob
Well, those ethnic differences certainly were politically expedient. And correct me if I'm wrong but the republics were formed along historic and ethnic lines. We had Kosovar Albanians clamoring for their own republic since the 80s but an autonomous province in Serbia, and votes by that province going against the interest os Serbia. So Serbian nationalists weren't happy either. Then Tito died and economic shit happened and that powder keg exploded but to suggest ethnic differences/nationalism didn't play a role seems misplaced.
The same really where it concerns Iraq. Iraq modern? Maybe what you saw on the streets of Baghdad and in the way people dressed. Meanwhile it was still a military dictatorship even before Saddam (since 1958) and ruled by a king since 1932. The Ba'ath party developed specific policies to deal with the power of tribal shaykhs. Tribalism was a real thing then and it is to this day. That is not to say that we should committ a single cause fallacy and claim that they are the primary source of conflict when Saddam dissappeared but a power vacuum when interests aren't aligned and split across ethnic/tribal lines isn't going to help.
[quote=Hobbes]No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.[/quote]
Thus the facile, cynical and condescending, and above all old-fashioned Hobbes on the failed state. And you provide a couple of supporting examples, to which one can add Somalia, and other parts of Africa in recent history. It seems obvious that if one removes a government, one ought to see urgently to a replacement.
See also https://thediplomat.com/2013/12/why-chinese-study-the-warring-states-period/
I think it was also the view of Mubarak. What happened in Iraq post invasion wasn't just an eruption of pent up violence, though. The US fostered sectarian conflict by their gross mismanagement.
I agree with much of what you say, but I think the war would have been wrong even if we did have the expertise you discuss and, more important, the will to use it.
As they say, there's no need to infer ill-will when stupidity, ignorance, and arrogance provide an adequate explanation.
Yes. I think this provides the best explanation of how we stepped in the Iraq dog do. Dog doo? Dog due? Dog dew? Dog d'oh.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I don't know if this policy ever made sense, but it certainly doesn't an longer.
No matter how wonderful and nice Iraq was before Hussein and no matter how terrible it was afterwards, it's just none of our damned business.
Quoting counterpunch
It's not politically correct at all. It is at odds with the US policy from the end of World War 2 till now. But, yes, it is self-recrimination. Justified self-recrimination. US actions in Iraq destabilized the whole region, drove millions of refugees into European, and damaged our national security. Proponents of American exceptionalism like you have harmed this country for decades.
I don't see that it's cynical or condescending at all. If it's facile, explain the more nuanced view you prefer. Much of the history of the world is made up of wars started by emperors and colonialists trying to take kingdoms and tribes that have been killing each other for centuries, millennia, and jam them together inside artificial boundaries. When you take off the constraints, things tend to get ugly.
That would be naive and blind to the facts. The ill will involved on behalf of the US was codified, illegal, and monstrous:
[quote=Wendy Brown, Undoing The Demos]In 2003, months after Saddam Hussein was toppled, Paul Bremer, the American-appointed head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, declared Iraq “open for business” and spelled out a set of 100 orders that came to be known as the Bremer Orders. These mandated selling off several hundred state-run enterprises, permitting full ownership rights of Iraqi businesses by foreign firms and full repatriation of profits to foreign firms, opening Iraq’s banks to foreign ownership and control, and eliminating tariffs — in short, making Iraq a new playground of world finance and investment. At the same time, the Bremer Orders restricted labor and throttled back public goods and services. They outlawed strikes and eliminated the right to unionize in most sectors, mandated a regressive f lat tax on income, lowered the corporate rate to a flat 15 percent, and eliminated taxes on profits repatriated to foreign-owned businesses.
Many of these orders were in violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions concerning war, occupation, and international relations, which mandate that an occupying power must guard, rather than sell off the assets of the occupied country. But if illegal under international law, the orders could be implemented by a sovereign Iraqi government. To that end, an interim government was appointed by the United States in late 2003 and was pressed to ratify the orders when it was pronounced “sovereign” in 2004. And lest future elected governments not be so pliable, one order declares that no elected Iraqi government will have the power to alter them. The Bremer Orders and the U.S.-dominated state under construction that ratified and executed them obviously exemplify a host of neoliberal features: the use of a calamity (“shock doctrine”) to impose neoliberal reforms; the elimination of public ownership and welfare; the reduction of taxes and tariffs; the extensive use of the state to structure market competition through inequality; the breakup of labor and popular solidarities; the creation of ideal conditions for global finance and investment capital.
...Bremer Order 81, the “Patent, Industrial Design, Undisclosed Information, Integrated Circuits and Plant Variety Law,” includes a prohibition against “the re-use of crop seeds of protected varieties.” Why a law against seed saving and reuse? ... Prohibited from saving seeds of protected varieties, Iraqi farmers are now permanently bound to their foreign dealers, whose seed is ubiquitous in their fields, intermixed with all the heritage seed. Organic, diversified, low-cost, ecologically sustainable wheat production in Iraq is finished. ... in addition to making Iraqi farmers dependent on giant corporations whose seeds, licensing, and chemicals they must now purchase annually (and for which state subsidies are available, while other farm subsidies were eliminated), they were being transformed from multicrop local food providers into monocrop participants in global import-export markets. Today, Iraqi farmers generate profits for Monsanto by supplying pasta to Texas school cafeterias, while Iraq has become an importer of staples formerly grown on its own soil.[/quote]
This kind of shit, which barely scratches the surface - it doesn't even talk about oil - is not an 'oopise'. It is malicious corporate ratbagging carried out under the express domination of US military power. The US the most ratfucking deliberately evil country on the planet, and people need to get that into their head as a fact no less unambigious than the that the sun is hot.
Baloney. The US browbeat our allies into grudgingly going along with our shenanigans. How many of those 35 countries do you think still supported the US's policy when millions of refugees stormed into Europe?
Quoting counterpunch
It's dangerous to kiss up to moderators and administrators. Pretty soon they'll think they run the place.
I'm so surprised! Hurt. StreetlightX doesn't like the US.
The foundations of much (most?) of the trouble we see in the world today were built by the actions of colonial nations in the 18th and 19th centuries and communist regimes in the 20th. No, I don't claim that the US doesn't share responsibility.
More murderous than WW1, WW2, the 100 Years War, the 30 Years War, the Mongol invasions, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the Khmer Rouge, the Islamic invasion of Europe, the European colonialization of Africa, the European colonialization of the western hemisphere, the European colonialization of Asia....?
Let me explain to you the rules of this game w/Streetlight before you get further involved (coming from a veteran player):
-Good deeds or positive ideas originating from a country don't count for anything; we are only talking about bad things here. Bad deeds only accumulate and are never expunged or mitigated regardless of time period. If something was decent by the standards of 1900 it is still to be judged by the most exacting standards of today.
-The standard here is perfection and any way that country falls short of that counts as oppression and evil by that country.
-It doesn't matter whether something was done by a country 10, 100 or 300 years ago it is still that country doing evil.
-It doesn't matter whether the evil was done by the President, generals, soldiers, ministries or proxies -it is all the fault of that country.
-Other countries bad deeds are off topic, we are only talking about this country.
Still wanna play?
Ah, yes. One of my favorite passive-aggressive gambits. [s]Insult[/s] Criticize someone in a comment to a different poster. When the person criticized responds, you can say "Oh...I wasn't talking to you."
I think this just shows your lack of perspective.
I would never pull the "I wasn't talking to you" line with Streetlight, especially in an instance where I directly referenced him. I might give him a little snark in my response, but he's always welcome to address my points.
This is unbearably dumb
It's Nietzsche, dumbshit.
wow are you condemning me? You know that condemnation creates idealism, right? When you hate the world, you're refusing to accept it as it is. Sounds like you're fixated on an inner vision of beauty. Sorry I can't meet that standard for you. :roll:
I'm just calling everyone who disagrees with me "dumbshit" today.
Quoting StreetlightX
Yea, he recognized that he wasn't living up to his own ideal.
Dumbshit.
I've got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
What do you get when you condemn others
Berating as much as a Streetlight bash
What are you at, getting terribly idealistic
What do you think will come of that
I don't like the look of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you're not a dumbshit, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Doompety do
• ‘Birds Aren’t Real’ rolling rally makes first stop in Missouri (Ivie Macy, Frances Lin, Nexstar Media Wire, 25 Jun 2021)
• 'The Birds Aren't Real' movement says federal government replaced all birds with surveillance drones (Anagha Srikanth, The Hill, 28 Jun 2021)
• Birds Aren't Real (home page)
• Birds Aren't Real (Twitter home page)
• Birds Aren't Real (Instagram home page)
Stay woke folks, stay woke.
Think my yardbird is a spy?
dumme Scheiße
Don't say I never gave you anything.
Lol, I must get in on this Oompa song death-matching.
In the case of Iraq, we waged a very destructive war (well, war generally is destructive--that's the point of it) for domestic and world consumption -- the "shock and awe" of it all. Contrary to the "get the oil fields for Big Oil", the primary beneficiaries were arms manufacturers and the political / military / industrial elite. And all sorts of peasant regimes received fresh coverage of just what falling into the Eagle's Talons might be like. So Don't get too uppity.
Another angle: Military planners appreciate the opportunity to practice with new materials and methods. Smart bombs, remotely operated drones, urban warfare (been a while since we had a live urban practice field), and so on. The number of American fatalities was quite tolerable.
The world's senior military power (like the US, USSR, China, and a long list of former powers) is going to project their nation's INTERESTS. As someone observed, "Nations don't have friends. They have interests." Not your interest, or my interest, or any other peasant's interest.
So, we peaceniks make a new round of signs, protest, write angry letters, plead the case of peace, lament the suffering of the victims, and the war, and the world, goes on as planned.
Of course it made sense from the senior military POV. Oil was already, and would be even more critical to economic development. Our government wanted to make sure that it would always have access to every drop of oil it wanted/needed, and could deny anyone else that oil. That is still true.
WWII was at least largely about the Axis powers getting access to oil, rubber, and minerals.
Now that the Senior Military Powers are past peak oil and slightly worried about global warming (and making plans for wind, solar, and continued use of fossil fuel) the pressure on US supplies might be easing a bit. Venezuela is close by, and they have the world's largest oil reserve, bigger than Saudi Arabia. Plus, we have not used up all our oil yet, and there is still the Middle East.
So yes it still matters. Maybe somewhat less critically, but if we want to maintain hegemony, it is in our interests to continue to control as many essential resources as we can. Other Senior Powers look at things the same way, Do you think our lives would be better if China, Russia, India and/or an Islamic state of some sort were running the world? I do not think so.
@Streetlight, some people think America behaves in an especially terrible manner. No, the American establishment just behaves the way nations do that are on top. King of the Hill is not a polite parlor game.
Oke.
Oompa loompa doompety doo
I’ve got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you’ll listen to me
Why do you try to talk politics?
Parading your posts like an elephant's dick
What are you at, you sad little twat?
What do you think will come of that?
I don't like the look of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you shut your trap, you may go far
Or read a fucking book you ignorant mutt
Else you can kiss this Oompah loompa doompa
Doompety's butt!
Howzat?
Brutal. :grimace:
:halo:
Whoever the "beneficiaries" were, I think the war was started primary for ideological and nationalistic reasons. When something bad happens to the US, the US does something bad to someone else.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I think there are other choices than US hegemony or China, Russia, and India running the world. Actually, I don't think either of those choices is even possible any more. Economic and political power is spread around a lot more than it was previously. Who do you think runs the world now? We certainly don't and we never have. We wanted to. What could possibly have gone wrong?
Quoting frank
...I guess that follows...
It doesn't scan.
A lot of Nietzsche is unbearably dumb, but he nailed that one.
You guys are just left in the dust. :cool:
I agree. Perfectly good motivation.
Quoting T Clark
Oh... Yes, I think it is still possible. Most of the world's countries (outside of a small circle of friends and enemies) are in no position to 'run the world'. United we stand! Like the UN? League of Nations? China is definitely in a position to apply for the top spot. US? Probably on the way down, BUT it's a long ways down and a slow process.
Quoting T Clark
We didn't run the world? Oh, come now. Of course we ran the world--not unopposed; not without some major slip-ups; not without some road salt being rubbed into other peoples' wounds, etc. Before us, it was the British Empire. "Running the world" just means that you can arrange things to suit your convenience. China will do exactly the same thing.
BTW, is not economic political power being "spread around" the very thing that make it possible for a country with concentrated power to run things? If Brazil, India, South Africa, Japan, Germany, France, and China were all politically and economically very powerful, it might be much more difficult to run things. Also, it helps to have a military backbone to support one's economic and political power.
Quoting T Clark
True. This is a long established pattern in human affairs: If I stub my figurative political toe, somebody is going to pay for it. Doesn't matter that you had nothing to do with it, or the dog or the cat. Clearly, I am not going to sock the Mafia designated killer in the nose to avenge my toe, so... I guess it will be somebody I can safely beat the crap out of. Like Iraq.
Not what Jesus taught, but Jesus wasn't teaching REAL POLITIC.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I think you're probably wrong, but one of the very minor advantages of being old is that we won't have to be around to worry about it. That also makes it easy to pretend I'm sure of what will happen. No one will ever tell me "I told you so."
I keep telling you guys - it's "Murica."
Oompa loompa doompety doo
I've got another lesson for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
What do you get when you take a shit
Leave it for a week in an open air pit
What is the smell that your nose would be laden
Surely it could only be horribly Baden
I don't like the smell of it
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you don’t smell Baden, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Doompety do
Better?
But your efforts are appreciated.
Prove me wrong.
Eternity, the modes of time, romance, quantum monad fields, scenery, Khayyam, Tahiti, and more… in my video…
I won't necessarily prove you wrong. I liked the band and the song, although I'm not familiar with either. Bands from Australia didn't have a big presence in the US in the early 70s. Still, I'll put this in as a really good rock song recording, whether or not it's the greatest.
I might be wrong, but no body cares what we old farts think anyway, so fuck 'em. It's not such a minor advantage being old. I definitely look forward to getting the hell off this blighted terrestrial ball before the largest hunks of shit hit the fan. Whop, whop, whop. Young people will get covered up close and personal.
If I live as long as my father, I have another 26 years to go--2047. That's too long; it's too close to the arrival of unbearable wet bulb conditions. The "wet bulb" is a thermometer covered by a wet cloth having a fan blowing on it. At 95º in the shade with high humidity, animals (and people) cannot cool off. They start getting hotter and hotter. As they gain heat, they start dying from heat stroke.
95º and above with low humidity is tolerable, however. So get back Into the fields and pick those tomatoes before they are spoiled!
Lots of people are going to die from heat buildup in their bodies. Of course, if they happen to be sitting in a cool air conditioned house, no problem.
Food scarcity, water shortages, air pollution, fires, drought, insect infestations, new diseases, economic collapse--it will be a captivating news event of the first order. Bigger than 9/11.
The young are already blaming us old folk for their dismal future. Well, children, it was some of us baby boomers who got interested in the environment in the first place back in the 60s, and were anti-capitalists. Earth Day and all that. Children: Always blame the rich, and shake them down for every penny they have got. We old hippies, after all, never had a pot to piss in. He who robs us walks away with empty bags. But Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are loaded. And Elon Musk. Just wring the ash out of their hides.
I give it a 6 on the 10 point cool scale.
It's very unlikely I'll live that long. My family tends to die in their 70s. Keep in mind - according to Ray Kurzweil, 2045 is the year of the technological singularity, when we all will either be uploaded into the cloud for eternal life or destroyed by our machine overlords. So, if you make it, you've got that to look forward to.
You're no hippie, just a pessimist.
Yeah, well, that's about you, not about Eagle Rock. Shows to go you not to listen to Hanover...
Smae folk, differn' song:
It borders on metal, but the best rock song ever recorded is this:
Skip ahead to 6:40 through till the ending to hear why.
One of the most beautiful lines I've ever read.
i was sort of joking anyway, but that track is all about the drums. The riff, weird bass line, and barely perceptible tempo retard starting at 7:18 is one of my favorite moments in all of music, and I listen to way too much music across most genres. Tool is certainly not for everyone though.
Also I'm pretty sure this song is about tripping balls, rather any particular philosophical concept...
Compare a classic such as this:
There's such a joy in the interplay of drum, bass and lead, transitioning between 5/4 and 6/8... or something... the maths simply fails here.
Nah you nailed it. I've always been a Zep fan, but I think I might be from a younger generation than you, so it's just different strokes...plus they sort of stole riffs from other bands in the early days...
Actually, this is hands down my favorite rock band. If you want interplay between instruments, joy, odd time signatures...once again an acquired taste, I fear...
Here's my favourite bit of play with timing...
...count it out...
I feel like I'm agreeing with you about everything and you're disagreeing with me about everything. :razz: I love Leadbelly too. Skip James is probably my favorite blues master.
As a musician myself, what I love about music is that there's no rules. Rock can be thinking music, and even classical can be heavy metal; ever listen to The Rite of Spring?
I think my favorite practitioner of rhythmic alchemy is Steve Reich; he doesn't purposely use odd times or weird structures to catch your attention, he just slowly, methodically builds rhythmic monoliths. It's spiritual stuff.
That's what I do.
badum tish
Btw this just popped up on my youtube and I think it's for you:
I won't claim that title for myself, but I do dabble in guitar and sometimes bass. This morning I was trying to get the bass drone to run smoothly in Eagle Rock, and just can't get it right. My thumb keeps putting in an extra beat.
What do you play?
Eh, mainly a jack of all trades, master of none. Mainly a composer/songwriter/producer...which tracks on a philosophy forum, right?
@Noble Dust
Ok, ok. I think it's time we put this to rest...
I really hope you're trolling me, especially since I'm originally from Ohio.
The 1991 Gulf War coalition included 34 countries, many of whom provided substantial military assistance, and many of whom were from the Arab world.
web.stanford.edu/class/e297a/The Coalition of the Willing.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War
If you acknowledge that Iraq was looking like a modern secular state in the 1970's, before Saddam took power then the argument you made - that Saddam's oppression was necessary to keep tribal and ethnic hatreds supressed, is clearly false.
Quoting T Clark
That's incorrect. The UN security council passed 16 resolutions on Iraq - culminating in resolution 1441 offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in previous resolutions 660, 661, 678, 686, 687, 688, 707, 715, 986, and 1284.
Sorry, I posted the wrong link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
In fact, 36 'coalition forces' countries deployed troops in Iraq after 2003, including countries from the region.
Also, numerous UN resolutions were unanimously adopted, including resolution 1441.
I'm just saying, blame the mad dictator, oppressing his own people and invading his neighbours - rather than those who spent blood and treasure to stop him.
:lol: Lines about the pit great but
Quoting praxis
Better would be, e.g.:
"WITH what SMELL would your NOSE be LAden?
IT could ONly be the PUtrid BAden"
The stressed syllables must line up with the stressed beats and laden needs the preposition "with".
That'll be a buck. :wink:
This, for sure.
Your song is something uniquely Australian that I don't get. It's bluesy rock light dance music with a doo wap throw back feel where the crowd looks put up wet, like a grateful dead crowd. The sort of song they'd play at a stadium to get the crowd going for those in the know, with the rest wondering wtf.
Really? Which ones?
Do you not have google?
Look it up for yourself.
Trolling? Moi? The Ohio Express is the greatest band since The Archies and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band.
I'm impressed, given the complex and nuanced writing, rivaling Bob Dylan and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band.
I don't think it's "clearly false," but that wasn't my point. The situation, including in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Europe, and the US, is much worse than it was before the war. The US should have known it would happen.
Quoting counterpunch
I don't understand what this has to do with the text from my post you quoted.
This is first and foremost a red herring, whatever we can say about Saddam has no bearing on the fact the war in Iraq was illegal and started on a lie and except for those living under a rock at the time, everyone knew it was a lie.
The legality of the war on the basis of SCR 1441 is shared by almost no one. It's about as compelling as denying climate change. Totally misplaced. That resolution was about requiring Iraq to cooperate with Unmovic under Hans Blix, which Iraq more or less did. Hans Blix said no WMD, the US lied and started an illegal and badly prepared war with no exit strategy in place causing untold suffering for Iraqi civilians as a consequence and more US casualties than were killed by 9/11. Talk about the cure being worse than the disease.
When the US went to war, it had almost no support for the invasion (UK, Australia, Poland, the Netherlands) because most Europeans realised it was a lie and except for the UK, and paucity Australia, no country accepted the argument 1441 was sufficient grounds to go to war. Only a few governments offered support, sometimes going against popular opinion in their own countries or ignoring a deep split on the subject.
So that will be a demand he stop it with the bombs he didn't have, then.
Lie? Yes, absolutely. Illegal? Interesting concept. War is one of those things that if you can pull it off and you win, then legality won't matter a whole lot. "Treaties are just pieces of paper" somebody famous said about invading Belgium and Netherlands. It also won't matter if your invaded country is ruined in the process (Iraq). The International Court may find for Humpty Dumpty, but he's still not put back together.
Legality only matters in war if you invade, behave badly there, and then lose. And even if the US invaded, behaved badly, and then lost -- who has the jail to put us in?
I understand that there are international conventions specifying what is allowable and not allowable in warfare. It just that, if "the policeman of the world" is violating the rules, who ya gonna call?
This is the problem with splendid conventions and declarations--like the Declaration of Human Rights. They are only enforceable if the various major powers want to enforce them. That might be highly inconvenient for some or all of the major powers -- who might themselves be violating this Declaration or that Charter.
The considerable inconvenience of being arrested and tried by the International Criminal Court in the Hague is one of the reasons the US did not sign on to the ICC.
BTW, why is Hague called "The Hague"?
It's not. It's called Den Haag, which apparently means "the hedge." "Where should we build the city?" "Over there by the hedge."
What lie? Are you saying Iraq didn't have chemical weapons? Because they were used by Saddam in the Iran Iraq War, and against Kurdish military and civilian targets. This is a fact I've mentioned previously. Please take it on board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program
Quoting Benkei
Implicit authorisation comes from the fact 1441 is couched in the form of an ultimatum. But having said that, the US doesn't conduct its foreign policy through the UN. The President of the US has the constitutional authority to declare war, and so, to talk of illegality is facile.
Quoting Benkei
Again, what lie? And how do you know what they were thinking? You don't. Your argument is epistemically wrong. You project backwards - from the unfortunate fact it ultimately went very badly, to infer improper motives, and assign blame. If Saddam had been removed, and the Iraqi people had organised elections - rather than starting a civil war - Iraq would have been back on track to become a modern peaceful state, and you wouldn't complain that the war was illegal.
[irony]Yes, those naughty Iraqis. It's all their fault. If only they'd behaved like we wanted them to, everything would have been fine. It's not our fault."[/irony]
It's a matter of fact that the Iraqi people went nuts - and precipitated a descent into chaos. And don't tell me, that's why we should tolerate brutal dictators playing with chemical and biological weapons - because monsters like Saddam really don't have any respect for life, legality, the international order, or the integrity of other states.
It all comes down to this - things are worse now than they were in 2002 because we started the war in Iraq. Any competent leader would have known that the post-war situation in Iraq would be chaotic. It's happened before. It always happens. To make things worse, we ripped their existing government up and forced them to build a new one from scratch. We are responsible for everything that happened as a consequence of the war we started.
Saying it's the Iraqi people's fault is like tossing someone overboard then blaming them for not knowing how to swim.
The post war phase didn't go well because the US had no will to be an occupying nation.
That was Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo was worse.
Those are the administrations since GW and the Gulf War. Can y'all talk about
It was completely predictable that what did would happen. The US knew or should have known. It doesn't matter what justification or explanation anyone gives, we are responsible.
This is my go to line in life, especially in face-to-face conversations.
My go to line is 'why are you telling me this?'
I think you may have missed the joke.
Yes, I did. Even now, I see no joke.
All you need is sarcasm brah.
Woah did you just delete your former post and then copy and paste it for no reason? I"m so confused.
I'm having a serious discussion. You chipping in with shit-posts is unwelcome. Please fuck off!
I love it when a huge and complex reality can be explained by one thing alone, don't you? It makes it all so simple!
Quoting T Clark
Does it? What about Bosnia? NATO's action brought that conflict to an end, and thereafter, they started negotiations, divided the territory and restored peace.
Quoting T Clark
The existing government was a mad man, who used chemical weapons against his neighbours and his own people, and thumbed his nose at the international community as they attempted to reign him in through peaceful means.
Quoting T Clark
Thanks for your opinion - such as it is.
Quoting T Clark
We saw the Iraqi people running riot, looting museums and tearing down statues; while Bush proclaimed 'mission accomplished' from the deck of an aircraft carrier. That could have been the end of it. Instead, from July 2003, the Iraqi insurgency used IEDs to target coalition vehicles; and it went south from there. I'm not saying the Iraq war went well. But it's not valid to infer, that because it didn't go well - our motives were improper. A more accurate metaphor, if we must - might be, we saw someone drowning, threw them a life-bouy, and it hit them on the head and knocked them unconscious, and they drowned.
But did you just delete your former post and then copy and paste it for no reason?
Wait you just did it again.
No no, you're the troll because you're copying and pasting your own posts over and over again. Don't blame me for your trollish behavior.
Ah now you've deleted "fuck off troll" to save face. Nice.
He's a guy whose summation of the aftermath of the Iraq war is "the Iraqi people went nuts". How can you not take him seriously and give him the respect he deserves? Oh, the humanity. :fire:
Your sympathy clouds your reason!
I made the mistake of clicking on your profile picture for no particular reason, and I'm currently realing from the realness. As to our friend, young counterLunch, I simply noticed a quotidian comedy to his comment "Thanks for your opinion - such as it is." To this day, I still chortle with joy at the sound.
Feel that, bruv.
Quoting Noble Dust
Yes, not sure why that became a great source of offence. Appears that counter has issues understanding humans.
That's what makes you such a good moderator!
The great source of offense may have been my quick eye to catch his quick deletion of posts and subsequent re-instating of posts. I could be wrong though.
Wait, so the fact that you have issues understanding humans makes Baden a great moderator?
I don't moderate just on the basis of folks being offended, particularly in the shoutbox. Wouldn't want to let sympathy cloud my judgement. Especially, when I don't have any.
As I said, this is a retarded argument on par with climate change denialism. The US has signed the UN Charter and thereby willingly submitted to those rules. 1441 was not an authorisation to use force. Compare it with other instances where such force was unequivocally given by the SC. That nobody agrees with this interpretation is apparent: even the UK found the same in their 2011 Iraq Inquiry.
I'm talking about some very weighty things, international relations, war, and death - and seconds after I post a lengthy post, making numerous interesting points, I get a response that highlights the least interesting, placeholder remark - and then claims I don't get the joke. Actually, I do. What he seems to be saying is, he doesn't give a shit about the Iraqi people. But I don't say what I say from a lack of sympathy, or lack of understanding of the depth of moral peril here. The breakdown of the international order - as a consequence of Iraq is very serious, and if in future, the US is unprepared to step in for fear of exactly this kind of politically motivated self recrimination - then more people will suffer in the long term. You're legitimizing brutal dictators oppressing their own people, and criminalising those who try and prevent it.
Indeed, Saddam was a great guy. That was my point. He did torture even better than you lot. But I see your point, if you bomb and torture people who are oppressed, you make their lives better. Unless they go nuts, of course. But that's hardly your fault.
Are you referring to this?
Quoting counterpunch
If so, it's hardly the least interesting placeholder remark.
Yes, you did, and then you said it again. Could you not think of an original insult?
Quoting Benkei
I've addressed this. The US President has constitutional authority to declare war. You may not like that, but it's a fact. Membership of the UN does not abridge that authority, and if it did, the US would not be part of the UN. After 16 previous resolutions, calling on Saddam to disarm, 1441 clearly implies - or else!
So here's my question: or else, what?
We'll write you an even more stern letter?
And if not the US, who else is going to make good on that threat?
Brah
Imagine you're American, and Trump had installed himself as a dictator, thrown his political opponents in jail - used chemical weapons against black people, and invaded Canada. The international community should just stand by and watch - should they? Well, let's say they don't. After a decade or two seeking peaceful means to reign him in, they bomb the shit out of Washington DC, bringing down Trump and his brutal regime. Do you:
a) organise elections, or
b) start a civil war?
Your choice!
Stop right there.
Quoting counterpunch
On second thoughts, stop here. I never made this argument.
Neither did you offer an alternative. In fact, you've offered nothing that isn't light on fact, and heavy on left wing, self righteous, politically correct, anti-western sentiment, and dripping with sarcasm. You may not agree with my remarks, but they're serious and considered. Legitimatising brutal dictators isn't a laughing matter.
You got rightly mocked and pilloried for your boneheaded characterisation of the Iraqi people and what was inflicted on them. That will continue until you stop doing that.
Addressing only the analogy, are you arguing that we can't look at the result (i.e. the dead victim) when assessing whether our decision to throw the life bouy was correct? Shouldn't we also look at how competently we threw it and whether we assessed the foreseeable likelihood that our attempted heroics might lead to a worse outcome than had we just left the situation alone?
Or do you just look at whether we had pure intent, and. If we did, and even if others were yelling at us "don't throw it, you're going to kill him!", we're absolved from moral criticism because our heart was in the right place?
:up:
Those of us who have consistently (unlike American administrations) opposed brutal dictatorships and want them removed recognize that the "cure" can't be worse than the disease.
Won't be smilin' when the Danes colonize your football asses. :naughty:
Your derision means nothing to me. I've read your serious posts!
Thanks for your opinion - such as it is.
!
Proud to say the Irish footie team have perfected that art. :strong:
No, you haven't addressed this, you've only demonstrated you don't know how international law works. When you sign a treaty it's pacta sunt servanda.
Quoting counterpunch
If the SC gives the warning, it's the SC that decides to use force or not, not the US going at it solo based on lies. There were no WMD. Your references to a war 20 years before in which chemical weapons were used in no way is a substitute for obtaining proof in 2002/2003. That proof was absent as communicated by Hans Blix multiple times and he was the one, as agreed by the US as well, that he was charged with researching if Iraq had WMDs in 2002. It's not about WMDs in 1982.
So, or else was in this case "nothing" because Iraq complied with 1441.
The UN, just as they did with Kuweit, is perfectly capable of deciding to use force. The threat was already credible.
Never understood why you call soccer football. A football is something thrown with your hands.
You're not addressing only the analogy - and clearly, mine is better than the one I was offered. We didn't throw the Iraqi people overboard, and them blame them for being unable to swim. We saw them drowning, and threw them a life bouy. It's unfortunate, it hit them on the head and knocked them out. (This actually happens all the time - so good public safety warning built in.) I am saying that the ultimate result is not a reflection of the intent, yes. And I'm also saying, that the post-war descent into chaos was not precipitated by coalition forces.
Yes I was. I didn't mention Iraq.
It's national in your face day. Quoting Baden
Well lookee here. You've got the Americans and the Irish, all your former subjects, talking smack now.
If you agree by treaty that your won't go to war except in self defence or with UN security counsel approval then not abiding by those rules makes the law illegal. If you want to argue you aren't bound by treaties then you shouldn't sign them in the first place.
That is incorrect. This essay explain why:
https://www.e-ir.info/2011/03/19/the-reality-of-us-un-relations/#:~:text=The%20history%20of%20United%20States%20of%20America%20%28USA%29,golden%20age%20in%20the%20relationship%20between%20them.%20%5B1%5D
Enjoy!
Quoting Benkei
In 1991 - at an-Najaf – Karbala area, Saddam used nerve agents & CS gas against civilians. And Halabjah - in 1988, again, against civilians. And he used them extensively during the Iran Iraq war. Saddam and "Chemical Ali" - were tried, and hung - by the same court.
Quoting Benkei
Hans Blix wholly objective opinion aside, the evidence suggests otherwise.
No it doesn't.
So you agree with me then?
It's bike socialism.
Yes this is or was true. I'm not asserting that the US is perfect, far from it but we are TRYING now.
Beginning with the last administration that vowed to not get the US in a new war, which they upheld.
Pulling out of Afghanistan is already too late. We were too late before we put boots on the ground. The US is not into continuity of administrations any more.
No. There were no WMD. There were some decades old remnants, but nothing that posed a threat.
Why didn't the US take out Iran? That seemed the more significant target, then and now.
Lost badly in 1776. :party:
Oh, so when you said - you disagree, I was supposed to believe you. Because Saddam claimed to have chemical weapons. And he used chemical weapons, repeatedly, in the past. But you say he didn't have any, because Blix didn't find them - during a series of weapons inspections that were cancelled last minuet, or part way through. And then, back to the UN for another stern warning, to which Saddam would agree - and then cancel them again.
When did Syria receive its chemical weapons from Saddam?
That account differed from Clapper's who said the smuggling occurred in March of 2003, not 2002, as Sada claimed. While Sada's story perhaps just adds more confusion to the theory, one thing is definitely clear: There was a large buildup of traffic between Syria and Iraq in March 2003.
I love our country and I'm grateful for having been born here. I feel a sense of common purpose with other Americans. I know you love it here too. That makes it even more important to me that we face up to our responsibilities.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
I don't think it will surprise you to know that I'm not a strong supporter of continuity with many of the actions of the previous administration. But still, you're right. It makes it hard to govern effectively.
Quoting Noble Dust
I'm a bit confused about all this foofaraw (I had to check the spelling on that.) I can still see Counterpunch's original post from my "Mentions" page. It was a response to my previous post. Although I disagreed with everything he wrote, I didn't see anything wrong with the post other than that.
That because my post was a reply to you, correcting your many, many errors - of fact, reason, wisdom, moral and political norms, taste and common sense!
There's no doubt in my mind that there would be a civil war in the US in that situation. There were a significant number of people who wanted to start one after they lost a peaceful and fair election in 2020.
Why are you attacking me? I was supporting you. Also, I can't let you cast aspersions on my taste. I still say Ohio Express and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band were the greatest American rock bands, not matter what @Noble Dust says.
Because I thought it was funny.
Quoting T Clark
Perhaps it's the underwire of your support I can feel digging me!
Quoting T Clark
Not just the greatest bands, but the greatest Americans!
I’m just as befuddled as you.
Of course. I don't want to argue in favor of violating treaties. I am not in favor of international belligerence or the US wars in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. What seems to be the case is that checks on the behavior of the major powers (like Russia, China, USA, etc) are few and far between. We do not have a planetary police force enforcing the law, the UN and its Security Council notwithstanding.
"Iraqi Su-22 and Mi-8 aircraft began dropping chemical bombs on Halabja's residential areas, far from the besieged Iraqi army base on the outskirts of the town. According to regional Kurdish rebel commanders, Iraqi aircraft, coordinated by helicopters, conducted up to 14 bombings in sorties of seven to eight planes each."
True. The problem with politics is that they are too often a zero sum game and people take positions instead of enter interest based negotiations. The reality is that multilateralism can have tremendous added value for everyone involved but parties need to be prepared to commit. For weaker parties the added value is clear. I'm sure Kuwait was very happy with the UN. And I think the work Unicef does and various peace keeping missions are great too. Bigger players tend to think they're better off without it, I think they're wrong. Big fishes become small fishes and if you neglected to establish strong multilateral institutions because it's convenient to fuck over smaller players, expect to be fucked back. By China most likely.
Are you befuddled about Counterpunch's response or my support for the Ohio Express and Crazy Joe and the Variable Speed Band?
A little bit of both.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11340/short-story-competition
I know, right? We create a thread with low standards so the only way they can violate it is to have a real debate.
Maybe substandard.
Turns out I go to only like 5 places and I'm really boring. I kinda thought it, but to have it documented wasn't helpful.
Quoting jamalrob
Take a longer perspective, and overall, our evolution, intellect and technology are miraculous. It's unfortunate that; because we do not value science as valid knowledge - and so have not applied technology in accord with a scientific understanding of reality, we turn technology in against eachother - rather than outward, against the challenge of our existence.
Google maps keeping us on an electronic leash is just another ideologically driven, misapplication of technology. The surveillance state is like nuclear weapons or fossil fuels. The wrong technology applied for ideological reasons. It won't last. We'll either correct this approach or become extinct.
It is possible to turn off 'precise geolocation data' in the cookies section.
Mmm. Coffee
Unless it's the Second Amendment. That's effectively the Eleventh Commandment.
I love the smell of coffee :yum:
The question is: was the smell an appealing smell on its own or is it because the effect it has on the mind and body?
Or is it possible that there is enough caffeine in the air droplets to have given us some kind of contact high?
Good question. It might be a Pavlov situation.
I started making this sauce. It's equal parts lemon juice, Greek yogurt, and tahini with salt and Sriracha.
The first time I made it I thought it was disgusting, but I ate it anyway. Now I make it every week and put it in everything.
To go from hating it to loving it, has to be something biological.
Just goes to show that it has no inherent nature.
It's yummy tho. Just don't overdo the Sriracha.
Better keep an eye on that. Closely. Check if it does anything suspicious.
By the way, interested in some secure monitoring gear?
I'm not exactly sure where Sriracha sauce was our whole lives because I don't remember eating it as a child. There was a yellow bottle and a red squeeze bottle with the salt and pepper but never a bottle with a Cock on it. :smirk:
When I left Chicago and moved West, I found out that the faster there is food on the table after being sat, the more people would order. Great for the servers at the restaurant and for the customer! :yum:
We are so spoiled out here to have homemade chips and salsa on the table before our party is totally seated! :cool:
Every other ethnic group is slow on the grub shove around these parts. :roll:
From your description, it sounds pretty disgusting, but you made it and were too cheap to throw the shit out, so you ate it and are still trying to convince yourself it isn't disgusting. Now it's your thing, sort of a signature, so you hang onto it. What'll happen is that one day a friend or family member will come over and tell you to stop eating that shit and you'll finally be freed of that nastiness.
It's sort of like being single and having a broken down stinking of dog chair in the living room that you convince yourself is comfortable and an important part of your quirky personality. Then a girl comes over and bursts your bubble and tells you it's not comfortable and not quirky. It's just nasty and you were too lazy and cheap to care about it, but her dainty self isn't going to humor you and let it stink up the room.
I don't know this from experience. Hold on, yes I do. That's exactly how I know.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/30/canada-182-unmarked-graves-found-at-another-residential-school?fbclid=IwAR1nDViXepqKx3Mew427a1wwxPrrgZfW-huPhRPjYbCYVLHkeV_0tbF0xgI
I'm confused. Is it the substance of the sauce that's a problem, or is it just the properties?
It's a little known fact - Sriracha was a sauce originally made in Egypt about four thousand years ago. The recipe was lost until a Thai archeologist was translating some papyrus scrolls found in the 1930s in the 1980s. She tried to recreate the food, with little success until she added some southeast Asian spices.
The reason this is a little known fact is that I just made it up. Now, to give this discussion a philosophical tilt, after reading the first paragraph, would you know that Sriracha was based on an ancient Egyptian recipe?
I really need to become a forum sponsor because I could go take a picture of that leather chair :rofl:
Touche' :up: Kind of like naming the song based on the lyrics provided without help from the Internet! I love it! :100: :party:
However to answer your question: No I wouldn't have a clue :eyes:
I could never in my wildest dreams imagine what it was like for those children and the families that loved them. :broken:
In Illinois our school's had names like:
Concord
Cass
York
I believe they were named after battles that were fought in the area.
What were yours?
Other than the high school, which was [Town Name] High School, they were named after previous school principals and superintendents.
The Battle of Cass? Which war was that? Maybe they were naming your schools after grape varieties. Larger cities tend to name schools after famous men [Benedict Arnold, Charles Manson, Donald Trump], small towns name schools after themselves. It's all we had.
You're saying I'm deep into a sauce delusion.
It's possible. I really don't throw things out until after the food poisoning subsides.
It's functioning, it's functioning! :smile:
Actually, it was just beside a lake.
Perhaps if we hale satan we can summon @Wosret.
I sent you a lonely like.
Either it was the school or the location where the agéd general Beauregard was caught en flagrante delicto with Toto the Terrier. Who humped whom?
I tried to form a pentagon with slashes and etc, but I'm too lazy to figure it out.
Maybe we can spam him, bar being banned via spam...
@Wosret
@Wosret
@Wosret
@Wosret
@Wosret
, watcha been up to...?
How is the maritimes? Still there? Not up to a whole lot, bored lately, got time on my hands.
How's about you?
Things are well hereabouts. Managed to grow corona hair. Don't think it's been this long since the 80s. :D But it's'gotta go. In the way. (By the way, I have a new phone #, in case you have my old one, or want the new one.)
Are you out in the Wild West these days?
We need more hair bands, that's for sure. Do do do, lookin out my backdoor. I have a different phone now, as well. Sure if you wanna message me.
Yeah, still in the wild west, gonna eventually make peace with the east.
Quoting Wosret
Interesting social experiment: Why don't you just tell us all what your new phone numbers are, then you can establish your baseline of popularity.
Wosret -- are you in the area with the fires? Getting a lot of smoke in the air? What kind of work are you doing? Been healthy?
None around me yet, last year I think, maybe year before there were, and it was smokey, but didnt have to evacuate.
Not quite as magical as I once was, but still kicking (and screaming). Currently weighing my options, can't do the same level of labor I used to be able to...
Doing any volunteering?
Good to know. Welcome back!
Basic forces like time and gravity will do that to us. I'm definitely feeling it. Less magic and more reality as the years pass.
Keep kicking and screaming. Good thing your not in the burning zone.
The sum of my volunteering thee days is watering the grass at the church across the street. Grass and trees help keep the city a bit cooler, though it is a shame to use drinking water. I also volunteer as a subscriber to Netflix. Just watched Lilyhammer which was pretty good. Features Steve Van Zandt from the Sopranos who ends up in Lilyhammer in a witness protection scheme. The satire of Norwegian obsessive progressive politics and the criminal tendencies of "Johnny" [Van Zandt] who opens a little Las Vegas style night club is pretty good. 24 episodes.
Are you keeping up with reading? So many great books out there, and so little time. For sci fi, The Hail Mary Project by Andy Weir is a good read. I'm currently reading Crabgrass Frontier which is about suburbanization -- which the author shows has been going on for a long time. I seem to have read much of the book before (I come across my own underlining) but it's as if I had never seen the material before. Memory is another thing that time and gravity degrade.
Thank you very much for responding to the summons. It's good to hear from regulars who moved on to other things. Take care. Good luck for you!
Well, been in the danger zone a couple times, really hoping to avoid it this year...
Lilyhammer eh? That's pretty good, sounds fairly interesting. What weights more, a ton of feathers or a ton of bricks? :D
I do a lot of reading: posts, titles of things, stuff like that...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11340/short-story-competition
The battle of Yorktown and Concord were just school yard scuffles :joke:
Quoting Bitter Crank
Hmm....we had a lot of corn fields around us but we actually had the Ovaltine factory on our prairie path. God it smelled so good!
I must have been 9 riding pedal bikes with my Mom. She rode a bright yellow three Speed Schwinn and I rode a Schwinn with a purple, pleather banana seat that got hot as hell in the heat.
She was platinum blonde and freshly remarried to a man she knew for 6 weeks before marrying.
In retrospect she was probably trying to bond with me. I'm going to remind her of the trip and see if she remembers.
{{{{{{{Wow}}}}}}} Welcome home :heart:
I have to tell you that I felt like I almost saw a ghost. Like that is how likely I ever expected you to come back :flower:
I'm so glad you are here and I too am feeling funky from the pandemic, for me it was the lack of hugggggggs in my life. Things are returning to normal round here :flower:
I am still so very excited for your returning :love:
You, @Mayor of Simpleton resurfacing it almost makes me wonder if there are others still lurking.
I won't name names but you know who you are :eyes:
For a while, I lived near the Necco candy factory near MIT in Cambridge MA. They made Necco Wafers, of course, and also those Valentines hearts with goofy sayings on them. They also made Clark Bars, Sky Bars, and others. The neighborhood was always filled with the smell of chocolate.
However, Shreddies are wheat, whereas whisky is barley, so I'm not sure what was going on (in my mind/at the distillery).
You mean the smell is a @Baden?
As a kid, on the way to the Georgia coast, we'd drive through Brunswick, with the billowing smoke from the paper mills. I couldn't see how anyone could live with that smell. It seems to have gotten better over the years, maybe some new regulations. People aren't as hardy as they once were.
Nice pun but maybe you need to praxis harder. :chin:
Like a 'roo on the roadside, mate.
Yes. Paper mill sludge is about as bad as an industrial smell can get. Not nearly as nice as chocolate.
The International Standard for foul odor is Stench Startina, a combination of skatole, cadaverine, Putrescine, ghastly cheap perfume, the exhalations of the Mitch McConnell, Donald Trump, and any sewage lagoon serving a slaughter house. Stench Startina rates a +10. Vanilla extract rates a -10, bacon -9.4. Rate your bad odors accordingly.
Baden :chin: 45ish
Childish grudge aside, I take at least one shower a day and don't sweat easily. I do however make it a point to eat sufficient fiber, and in the immortal words of Dr. Robert Lustig, "In life you have two choices, it's either fat or fart."
How does bacon rate worse than vanilla extract?
As I can attest, this is clearly not true. You can do both.
...that sweet smell of summer.
Oh, oh Me! I can do both!
AH, as can @T Clark, I see.
Beans. Lentils. and cheese. Yum.
Yeah I was gonna ask; what about no fat and no farts?
Ok good to know. Filed in it's proper folder.
High - buzzing, sleepy
Burn - the substance
Ate - the munchies
I get that a lot... :(
... but surely I'm unforgettable.
Bacon yes, but idk about the rest. I don't have a sweet tooth.
Prediction: Italy 2-1 England
Otherwise evenly matched, I think Italy's midfielders & strikers give them a slight edge over England.
You're back!
The least consequential thing. :)
Quoting 180 Proof
I'd like to see the Brits win it. Not sure why I feel like that, maybe it's my Anglo ancestory.
It might be even a worse day for the Brits if Sir Richard's joyride to orbit goes the way of "Icarus' flight", y'know, hubris, etc. I wish him well (not really – fuckin' billionaires!)
update:
Congrats, Sir Richard! :up:
@Michael denies being interested in football but he was captured on film at the scene.
Same.
Hope you've been doing well. :)
Makes good points. Of course, by all means, do read up on things on your own, it's the way to go, just don't think that makes you the foremost expert.
Often enough, there's a more reasonable space between gullibility/credulity and hyper-skepticism/denial. The universe has made no promise to accommodate us, our peculiarities, our concerns.
Really? Destroy LA? Hmmmm, I haven't been there yet, but maybe You should. On the other hand, the Blessed Virgin Mary seems to be a fan of small businesses, so there is that.
It's only because they couldn't get a permit to bury the bathtub through the sidewalk.
What did Southgate and his team do?
And the Andorrans are notoriously bloodthirsty.
Ireland, ffs.
Or maybe we weren't in the championship either? Fuck knows.
To be fair, I only watched the first five minutes.
Didn't the Irish Celts migrate into Scotland and kill off all the indigenous people? That was in 1959. No, wait, 459 BC.
You call it an "interesting fact." I, on the other hand, when I make something up, call it a "little known fact."
If you've only got 5 minutes, prolly watch the last 5.
I like it, personally. Got caught in it a bit tonight on my way home, but it wasn't too bad.
This all applies to one rainy day with blue skies before and aft. Days of rain in the city rapidly pass into rancidity. Add heat: disgusting.
Very thoughtful and poetic. I don't have AC, so any change in barometric pressure in the summer is usually welcome. Pretty simple.
You should join the bird club.
On second thought...
Nevertheless, I learned a lot of information when I was debating through the threads.
https://www.newsweek.com/im-11-physics-degree-plan-make-humans-immortal-1608391
I hope this prodigy doesn't wind up like all rest: festooned with scientific & engineering degrees and/or artistic virtuosity yet devoid of original and, more significantly, philosophical cultivation as they spiral down a disappointingly ordinary posterity mumbling (smugly) to themselves "I'm a genius, I'm a genius." What a mind fuck MENSA really is (no, that's not "sour grapes" grousing).
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1414626287239450627?refresh=1626157302&fbclid=IwAR1Tqb3URmJd8t0GQvdBTTRTTabg6JPZRS-n48QnMfVGqG-G2PHrCr-prnw
To complement this increase in intelligence, I'm also going crazy heavy on the roids so that my hulk like brain will have a corresponding hulk like body.
Are you familiar with smooth brains? :razz:
https://youtu.be/EI5nw1kYwdo
I tried that. I listened to "War and Peace" in 20 minutes. It involves Russia.
I don't know the others but they seem familiar somehow.
I also noticed that if you don't like book, you can listen in reverse and unhear it.
Is there a way to unread posts on TPF? Forget the likes and dislikes.
The first one is Wonder Woman and the one in the middle is Lucy.
Well, kiss my grits.
I always had a thing for Mrs. Howell.
I only know #2 and that is Marsha from.... the Brady Bunch?
I think it would make more sense if Mr. Cleaver was God, Mrs. Cleaver was Mary, and Beaver was Jesus. Eddie Haskell would be either the devil or Judas. Lumpy could be Santa Claus. I'm not sure about Wally. Maybe the disciple Paul or John the Baptist or somebody. Or maybe Mel Gibson.
@T Clark
It's interesting to read the fantasy world of both of you. There seems to be a heavy influence from the creators.
Simple nod, guilt implied or the best you had before your peruse through the Sears catalog? :rofl:
Just so you don't think you are alone: my girlfriends and I went out on my 18th birthday and boldly walked into the local convience store and asked for a Playgirl magazine. The old man behind the counter looked confused and said Playgirl? We explained the difference between the two and he held up some Trashy magazine for guys with the word Fetish on the front and we declined and left. Bitchin the whole way about how men are catered to and girls get shafted! What an unfair world we were going to do something about. :strong:
I wonder what was in that Fetish magazine we turned down that night :razz:
Entertaining but feels icky.
I'll pass :meh:
Now, a friend is going to the new Top Gun movie in a guy friends flight suit with him!
Otherwise she would have waited to go with us in the Fall!
Sell out :down:
However I would climb over her body if he wanted another lady to go with him! :100:
OMG Tom Cruise ~ swooning
It's also hard to subtract out the whole Woody Allen/Soon Yi thing when seeing Woody Allen these days, adding to the creep factor.
Annie Hall is one of my favorite movies. Loved it then. Love it now. Most of Allen's movies are about "bourgie self-aggrandizement." That's kind of the point. Doesn't feel icky at all to me. I wonder if your feelings are influenced by Allen's controversies.
I find Cruise much creepier than Allen.
TimeLine used to swear there was no Patrick Stewart, only Jean Luc Picard.
I don't think so. Like, I hated Diane Keaton's character (love Diane Keaton tho). The way she was played was just pure male fantasy (as are all of Allen's female characters, from the little I've seen) Cute, naive, receptive to Alvie's overly-intellectual pontificating, in fact initiating the relationship. And Alvie, God. Like, neurotic as all hell, and while it's obviously acknowledged and self-aware of this, it almost feel like it uses it's own self-awareness as a justification or even tacit glorification. It's like the whole movie exists to... justify it's own existence and everything that happens in it. Like it tries to pre-empt objections by cheekily winking at its own neuroticism. It involutes at every point. There's no... innocence to this film. I think Allen is like, the perfect person to make this kind of movie, but I didn't find it icky because it came from him. It's icky on its own merits to me.
Still, so stylish, and I was still entertained nonetheless!
To open this discussion up, there are a bunch of male artists who come to mind when I get into this type of discussion. R. Crumb, a cartoonist and the subject of the wonderful film "Crumb." Comedians Bill Burr and Louis C.K. Woody Allen. They lay their insides out for everyone to see and a lot of what they show is considered offensive. The also show their anxieties, weaknesses, failures in a very personal and humiliating way. Another comedian who comes to mind is Mike Burbiglia, although he is not as offensive.
These guys lay their guts out on the table - the ugliness inside them. The weakness. They know how they look to others. I think they're really, really funny and I find their stuff very moving. I know how hard it is to show your insides. Shame is the primary emotion for men these days. That and anger, which are really two sides of the same coin.
But I guess it's hard to see satire in a culture you're unfamiliar with because you don't know what they're making fun of.
I don't see that, at least not with the artists I named. I think they have shown themselves as legitimately weak and vulnerable. I think comedians are much more likely to act in a way they know will be found offensive because they think their audience will think it's funny. I see it as a resentful reaction to what is seen as the lack of respect for men these days. That's different from what I'm talking about.
Here's a clip of my favorite Bill Burr sketch. It does have some offensive homophobic language, but I remember the first time I watched it, it brought tears to my eyes.
Forgot the clip:
Once upon a time, I thought the 'guts on the table' approach was a good idea. Now, I'd just as soon they keep their guts off the table. It isn't as if extremely neurotic--verging on demented--people are so hard to come by that we need comedians making a career out of it.
"Icky". I've never found Allen or his films "icky". Great to not great, certainly. His depiction of neurosis can get tiresome after 3 or 4 hours, but that's true for neurosis in general -- my own and others'. Two thumbs up for Love and Death and Annie Hall.
Half of all old Jewish American men look like that, my grandfather looked like Bernie
Agreed, having personally grown up on the film and Woody Allen generally, although the scene where Annie orders a pastrami on white with lettuce, tomato and mayo and his reaction is classic.
I put my vote in for Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, and Midnight in Paris. I also have a deep and abiding affection for Take the Money and Run and What's Up Tiger Lilly.
"Oh, you're oriental!" the driver says to the woman who just landed in the passenger seat.
Brilliant idea -- substituting utterly unrelated dialogue to a Chinese movie.
The only Allen film I didn't like was INTERIORS because I was expecting the typical Allen comedy and it never materialized. It finally occurred to me that it wasn't several years later.
A cop car pulls up to a hitchhiker on the road. The Guy has that Mexican look to him.
Cop 1, " you don't look like you are from around here"
Hitchhiker, "No, I am just passing though and I got robbed down the road a ways. I was looking for a cop to report it."
Cop 2, "you don't look like an american, got any ID?"
Hitchhiker, "No, I just got everything stolen and I was looking for a cop to report it"
Cop 1, "Can you prove you are not an illegal immigrant?"
Hitchhiker, "No, but my family has lived here for generations"
Cop 2, "so you can answer some questions about history then?
Hitchhiker, "OK"
Cop 1, " what are the last names of 3 presidents?"
Hitchhiker, "Kennedy and Bush"
Cop 2, "let's arrest him, he don't know shit about our country, and he can't even count"
Bad jokes abound. This is one of them.
What's the difference? It could have happened anywhere.
And music was provided by The Lovin Spoonful.
But it didn't. It happened in Mississipi. Why?
Let me ask the guy who wrote the joke, maybe there is a reason. I will look for the book and find the author.
But personally I don't think it makes much difference, plenty of place have cops like that.
But we both already know why.
Pray tell. What evil are you imagining?
I knew that, lived around there for a while back in the 60's. But is that what makes it a bad joke? Why is that different from the video?
It isn't a bad joke. Actually, it's quite good. Mississippi, on the other hand IS a bad joke. Listed as worse state in the country by experts on bad states.
The video was self-deprecating. He was telling everyone how stupid men, like himself, were. What dates the video is the use of the term "fag," which has become off limits for heterosexuals to use.
The Mississippi joke was different in that it made fun of others, not one's self. Whether Mississippians are a class in need of special protection, probably not yet.
If you look at it from a completely "I don't give a fuck about political correctness" point of view it is.
Quoting Hanover
But I always enjoyed being there. Maybe because I was sort of accepted by both sides being a novelty English person. But there were times when the whites were pissed because I could not understand why they did not like me talking to the blacks.
She: Committing suicide.
He: What about Friday night? [I]Play it Again Sam[/i]
@Baden 82, Hanover 108.
WOODY ALLEN: "I took a speed reading course and read War And Peace in 20 minutes. It involves Russia." So, now we're plagiarizing our smart ass comments! Have you no decency, sir?
Annie Hall: Two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, ‘Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.’ The other one says, ‘Yeah, I know; and such small portions.’"
I painted myself red and black and made a stupid shirt that said Go Dawgs on it so I could watch Ole Miss play Georgia in the mid 80s in Jackson. I took off my shirt to conceal the one way sign I stole from the parking lot. The cop came screeching up in his patrol car, so I threw the shirt covered sign in the woods. He looked around and couldn't find it in the dark. I was thinking he would probably be able to place that shirt to my bare chest if he found it, but the gods were kind that day.
I was spared that hot humid night of having to call my dad from the Jackson jail when he thought I was in Athens. Ga back at UGA.
My fond memory of Mississippi.
I don't know.
I've used that quote in the past and attributed it. Almost everything I know is plagiarized. There haven't been any new ideas since Og Eep the great Neanderthal philosopher.
Actually, it is a bad joke, even ignoring the slur. Badly written. Too long and convoluted. Lame punchline. Oh, yeah. I almost forgot - not funny.
Obviously, as you noted in your later posts, it's because we Delwarians are not slack-jawed yokels.
Still last in the nation.
The joke follows the standard wind-up for jokes that tell a little story. Slur? Not much. The laughter in jokes is often driven by cruelty or unkindness. In the end it is the Mississippi officers who are lampooned. Is that why it isn't a good joke--that the Mexican-looking guy is cleverer than the Mississippi cops?
One could say that the Mississippi State Patrol no more deserves to be denigrated than Mexicans. But that's the politically correct view, and PC is an enemy of humor. The best jokes [that get the greatest audience laughter] are usually at someone's expense: Blacks, women, Jews, fags, cripples, drunks, orientals, southern hicks, stupid Swedes (Lena and Ole), dumb Pollocks, blonds, and more! Any out-group will do. Of course, PC objects to any exclusion that results in out-groups. Unfortunately for PC, not everyone wants to belong to the tightly moderated in-group of all-inclusive political correctness.
Sorry - might be too heavy a comment on a joke.
How have things changed here since then?
We introduced a new "No Akanthinos" rule.
:cry:
I don't remember being so mean.
Sweet Jesus. The madness needs to stop now. :scream:
I generally dislike Allen's work, esp. the early stuff, but I appreciate Blue Jasmine. I also find Wonder Wheel interesting (it requires a bit of adapting to the style; the story is set in the 1950's and the acting is done the way it was done then, so it seems completely overdone and unnatural by modern standards).
Quoting StreetlightX
I can't locate the quote, but I remember Allen said once in an interview something like "You cannot dig around in yourself all the time." I guess over time he stopped being so overtly neurotic.
The strangest Allen film I've seen is Match Point. I mean "strangest" because it's nothing like Allen's other films.
Gosh, I've seen Match Point, but like, a decade ago. I barely remember it. Not Blue Jasmine, which is on the list next!
[irony] Yes, BC. That's why it isn't a good joke.[/irony]
Quoting Bitter Crank
Freud wrote a whole book about jokes, didn't he?
It's funny - it's a good clip. But still, it's like - when you live a world where that overwhelming anxiety of being seen as 'unmasculine' is simply not hanging over you, the joke is a really... parochial one. It's like the kind of joke made by a village comedian about their weird village customs that's more heartfelt if you belong to that village and practice those very local customs. That's overstating the case a bit, because of course I know that pressure, but I guess this feeds into my point. Sometimes these human vunerabilites are far more a reflection of local - let's call it - anthropological conditions than things that speak to anything universal. Hence:
Quoting Hanover
Oh I get the satire, but I also get the feeling that it's not just satire. Like, I think it's pretty clear that Alvie is a kind of idealized Allen. It's who Allen would be if he was as sharp-witted, and if women just fell all over him (even as they had to deal with his neuroses), etc. It's self-exploration of an extrapolated Allen, and even as it makes fun of it, there's this unshakeable element of "look how much fun it would be if one was Alvie".
Would now be a good time to bring up a settling of a bet between you and I about the shout box?
:flower:
If I agreed with this, Burr's clip wouldn't mean much to me. I see the things he's talking about as something universal for men. Certainly for me, my family, my friends, and the men I worked with. Burr comes from South Boston, where these types of attitudes are strong. At least they used to be, the area is heavily gentrified now. Of course Burr and the guys he's talking about are an extreme example made even more extreme to make it funny. It's not primarily about homosexuality. It's about men doing their duty, living up to expectations, not showing weakness, not disappointing the people they care about and look up to. That and the burden it puts on them.
In June of 1968 I was getting oriented in the VISTA program in Boston -- Roxbury to be specific. We were a diverse white group, ranging from sophisticated graduates of U of Illinois, California hippies, and earnest rural hicks like me. We were advised to stay out of South Boston. "They don't like people like you (plural) any better than they like blacks from Roxbury. You'll get beat up."
Quoting T Clark
Everyone has expectations to live up to, including countercultural pinko commie fags, and it usually is a burden.
The burdens of class, sex, race, and place are mercifully not static and they evolve over time. South Boston probably isn't the same place that it was 50 years ago, but it probably didn't evolve into a Harvard Square mentality, either. Hicksville, where I come from, evolved too but the continuities are readily visible.
For a comparison... Amazon is hailed as a revolutionary juggernaut, bringing something totally new to retailing -- huge selection and home delivery. Apparently the observers never heard of Sears and Roebuck which sold everything from farm machinery to women's underwear.
This is why Americans are the worst people on the planet. Not only will they imperialise you by dropping bombs and stealing your resources, they'll even imperialise your own bloody social pathology.
Maybe you don't feel that way, but that doesn't mean my observations aren't valid. I made a broad generalization about people I have experience with. Of course it isn't absolutely true about all men. I'm sure there's some bloke in the outback playing his didgeridoo by the billabong who doesn't feel that way. On the other hand, I doubt Australian men in general are not subject to the same pressures as men elsewhere. You pontificate about America and Americans all the time but criticize me for talking about something I have much more experience with than you do. And, whatever your feelings, what I am talking about is what Burr was talking about. He's just a lot funnier.
:party:
Or try like, most of Asia. Anyway, I couldn't ask for a better illustration of why this comedy can lead to problematic results: when even the particularities of vunerability come to be projected as universal, and then people get defensive when people are told otherwise. This is like, exactly what I meant when I said this vunerability can be donned like an armor meant to stave off criticism at the outset. It becomes wielded as emotional manipulation passing off as 'guts on the table'. No doubt this is how people like Louis CK ended up with dicks in the flowerpot.
Actually, you might be right. But I wrote it out more or less as I remembered it. It was probably better written originally.
As has already been pointed out, it follows a standard joke format that builds up to a punchline. And it like nearly all good jokes makes fun of someone. In reality, it would be funny if someone did not know that there had been 2 presidents with the surname Bush and I suppose there are actually people that don't know.
Quoting T Clark
I don't see you defending the Mississippians anywhere.
I'm not responsible for your unblinking prejudice against Americans and men. I don't see the controversy in saying that men are subject to social expectations that are damaging and stressful. Burr talks about it in a funny way and I appreciate it. You seem to be struggling to fit this all into your personal knee-jerk narrative.
Also, @Noble Dust upvoted me.
Sorry. I was being a bit of a jerk.
Quoting Sir2u
As Emerson wrote, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds and bad comedians.
Sure, and I'm just pointing out that the kind of thing he describes - which to anyone with a modicum of comprehensive ability would recgonize as funny not just because he's making fun of 'expectations of men' but very particular expectations (Barr is too clever and astute to makr banal jokes about the former) - has its limits. That doesn't make it unfunny. It just contextualizes it.
Don't fret about it, at least you had an opinion.
I would really like to see some good jokes that do not put anyone down, but even the jokes where the teller is the butt of the joke do so.
But I think that's where you and I are at loggerheads. For me, yes, it's funny because of the specifics, but I find it moving because of what is more universal. Although I'm sure Burr would laugh at me if I told him that, I don't think he is unaware. As far as I can see, that is what gets your hackles up.
Hey...I never wrote that!
I'll let Ralph provide my rebuttal:
Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost,--and our first thought, is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment.
I don't know if I'd go around boasting about that.
I will gather rhetorical support wherever I can.
Since we've been on the subject of American television, do you know the source of that song?
If it's backwards day, I vote for vomit flavored anti-vomit medicine for a business idea.
Fried chicken or hamburger?
Foie gras?
The bird in your avatar is just amazing.
It's my spirit bird! What's yours?
Mine is easy to tell. Loud, raucous, argumentative, and really, really smart.
Yes, yes, we already knew that, thanks T Bird.
Oh man, I have so many answers to that weird question.
But were you a teenager?
Nah, he was a European.
By vomiting.
I mean, how is not vomiting going to give you a business idea? How shitty are your business ideas?
Like a patio set lunch.
I'll target the vomiting that no longer want to vomit but who prefer the taste of vomit over cherry, thus a vomit flavored anti-vomit pill. I'll call it RegurgiStop.
I wouldn't expect you'd understand. You only have 30 likes.
Are you a crouton?
I bake the odd loaf.
That's a tough first line of a book to work from.
I'm not a Neanderthal.
Australopithecus?
Put the torches away, I'm like mostly people... almost entirely people.
I was thinking shrimp and beef bourguignon.
Vomit flavored Zofran. It could come in different varieties like liquor flavored vomit, Chinese food, and of course taco bell.
Know what I call those handful of states? Suspects.
Change your horse halfway through the race?
Oh I know, go in trying to settle a score and wind up nation building?
Am I hearing you right?
What do you think about your kid taking a gig in Raleigh?
I'm thinking I don't really know what you're talking about. But, if he did get a gig in Raleigh, I would tell him to have a good time in Raleigh. If Durham, I'd say for him to have a good time there. If Charlotte, fuck Charlotte, I wouldn't speak to him.
Did you know they have white squirrels in Brevard. True story. Those aren't rabbits running up the trees, but a strange genetic makeup up there. If he went to Brevard, I'd tell him to look for the squirrels. It's near Ashville where the liberals live.
White squirrel of Brevard. I named him snowball.
Upvote the white squirrel post. What kind of person doesn't upvote a white squirrel?
Let me rephrase it.
If one were to move across the country, what degree of culture shock there would be between Arizona and North Carolina?
:eyes:
None probably. The weather's better in Raleigh. It's the South, but a pretty sophisticated area with the research triangle with UNC, Chapel Hill, and Duke. It's educated and affluent for the most part I would think. If he likes to hike, I like the mountains on the east coast, the Appalachians, and the waterfalls and such on this side of the globe as opposed to that hot desert rocky terrain near you. I'm an east coast sort of person, though, so I'm biased.
With all the universities, I'm sure there all sorts of trendy bars and things that don't interest me much anymore. Also, while not real nearby (a few hours), he's a daytrip to the coast of SC, so there's a nearby beach and DC is probably 4 or so hours away.
It won't be like he'll be out in the boonies out in the country away from civilization. That's where I'm hoping to be.
I believe the US is pretty much divided into interstate exits where every few miles it goes Walmart, Home Depot, sports bar, fast food restaurants, gas stations, repeat until you get out to where they stopped doing that. Rest assured though, it will slowly creep to every exit across the country.
In the DC area, they have black squirrels.
You white supremacists make me sick.
They're also in Northeast Ohio.
Everything requires immediate ranking and ordering. Otherwise the sky falls.
You have 69 likes.
It's just the symbol for cancer, the current astrological sign of the month.
If you say so.
I just realized squirrels are rodents. I guess this means they rank at the top of the rodent spectrum.
I google maps'd that place and it looks amazing. Have you been to neighboring Georgia?
Capybaras know they're cute. Squirrels don't.
Georgian wine is pretty crazy.
That's an urban legend.
A suburban rumor.
Only a genius.
There are a few Georgian restaurants in NYC; I may have to investigate.
Chashushuli looks pretty great. My list of places to eat in the city is already pretty daunting, but I'll definitely find a spot to add to the list.
There are a few, yes. Also on the list.
Okay, I take it all back, new favorite.
Good question!
I just assumed that it was a male thing hiding their nuts for later. :razz:
A full page of posts about different types of squirrels and how they rank and now branching out into rodents in general. This is exactly the type of thing the Shoutbox was designed for.
BTW, there was a black squirrel in my back yard this afternoon. Or, it was a white squirrel in black face. Probably putting on a menstrual show tonight.
How do you know they are female squirrels from the pictures shown?
My spirit animal is a pig.
Ah yes, how could I forget.
Who are you talking to?
You, and only you. Always you.
:love: I will publish the results of the "likes" experiment when I surpass @Hanover in likes.
When you go to a Geotgia restaurant, get the meat loaf, collards, mac and cheese, and go for the cornbread over the biscuit. You can read from the Penny Pincher newspaper and find yourself a deal on a used washing machine. And so you know, that's not iced maple syrup in the glass next to you. That's your tea.
He didn't believe in vaccines.
Frank your posts are usually witty observations...
This post took my breath away :scream:
In my worst nightmare NicK is that man.
But that doesn't change shit. Still refuses to get Vaccinated AFTER being on a ventilator.
DNR and DNI being signed this week.
I'm getting old my friend :worry:
You forgot to note that you should never, never, never order the mashed potatoes.
I would tell him to stop screwing around and get it. It leaves a hole in your life when someone you care about dies.
I know you know that I have been trying to get him to get the Vaccine ad nauseam. I have finally had to give up, not without a fight I assure you.
But I cannot change him, all I can do is prepare for the worst while living the best we can.
It's a tragic choice this I know and it leaves me feeling absolutely helpless yet again.
I'm not sure about you but I don't know that I have another round in me.
In many ways I have to prepare for life alone.
Hey Tiff, that is hard to live with. I managed to persuade Mrs un, with gentle persistence and patient respect.
It is such a tragedy that good people make bad choices because the ubiquity of bullshit leads to paranoia.
I guess none of us know how long we have. Live now.
At it times it feels like a very selfish decision which can lead to resentment if not checked at the door.
Un, my mentor, my sage, please tell me that the last year of hell has been worth it even if he ultimately flipps me and the world off?
I know...there is nothing I can do to change him.
So is my only choice to watch him make choices that have the potential to have deadly consequences?
My heart literally can't take it. As I sit here in the privacy of my son's car in the parking lot of the corner market, tears just will not stop falling.
Surely there are others in this world who are up against this, if so please shed any thoughts that might make the decision to not get vaccinated easier for me to understand. If you so choose.
:flower:
At some point it seems inevitable that Georgia will invade Georgia. There's just too much resentment, confusion, ambiguity, identity uncertainty, trademark infringement, and Google Maps issues that I can't see this ending well.
That's good advice if you were to die tomorrow, but if you blow it all out now and you live a long time, you'll wish you saved up for your long life.
Carpe manana.
I feel for you, Tiff. And I don’t really have an answer for you. Not from where I am. Just an uncommon viewpoint.
In a corner of the world that has seen zero community transmission of COVID, where the restrictions that others have been subjected to for more than a year have been no more than an occasional and minor inconvenience, and COVID deaths are literally a world away, I consider myself beyond fortunate, here. It’s so easy for us to be blasé about vaccination. But I am (finally) booked in for my first jab in a couple of weeks.
I watched my sister wrestle with a decision that uprooted her family (including two toddlers) from this safe seclusion to a major international hub, keeping her family together while her husband salvaged their family business after his father died there of COVID. They all got their jabs overseas while I was still too young to be eligible here.
I wonder if some people by now have forgotten what it was like to live without all these restrictions and deaths, or if they’re already ignoring them as far as they can get away with it - like sticking to the speed limit. They compartmentalise the threat, convincing themselves that less obvious risk equals no risk. But I think they’ve forgotten what ‘no risk’ looks and feels like.
Here, mask equals risk. We see in the news every day how easily it escalates out of control, so when the government says ‘lock down’, we do it for three days, and then we’re back to our freedom. If you knew how freely we live here now, you’d probably be horrified - but our risk in the community is as close to zero as it can be. We vaccinate not to stay alive, but because we miss the rest of the world. We miss our family members, for whom the threat is real, and who’ve given up trying to get home. You deserve to be enjoying this as much as we do.
It’s a guilty pleasure to always see smiles on the faces of those around me, or feel comfort in a room full of people. I try not to take it for granted.
I know you know about medicines prescribed to make money for drug companies that do people harm. I know you know that governments lie and cover up when things go wrong. So what is one to do? I nor you are experts to know that this time 'they' are not exploiting and lying. You are experiencing the damaging effect of social dishonesty, which is that talk loses meaning. We have had 100 years of Dr Foul's new and improved bullshit meter, guaranteed to detect untruth, bla bla bla, and now no one believes anything, and communication becomes impossible because valueless. It even infects your relationship, because one or other of you has been duped by 'them', even though you are honest with each other. All I have is an old song.
I'm just saying look at the things and people in your life as if it's the last time you'll ever see them.
Then go back to planning for tomorrow.
lol manana
By some estimates, the probability of complications due to the vaccine is greater than the probability of complications due to covid.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
So is the choice to get vaccinated: it has the potential to have deadly consequences. People have died from the vaccine, some became maimed after suffering a stroke after vaccination.
Do you expect that a person should believe that they have Luck on their side and that they are definitely not going to be the one to get the bad side effects from the vaccine? This is going to be especially hard to believe for a person who has already experienced that Luck isn't on their side in medical issues.
Given that the placebo effect is real, an argument can be made that believing that the vaccine is safe and effective can induce the placebo effect, thus making the vaccine safer and more effective than it would be without such a belief. Why not make use of the placebo effect, right? It's just that one cannot make oneself believe things at will just like that.
This is a time of fear and despair. In such times, people tend to jump to conclusions, make generalizations, and are optimistic in ways where they would be cautious otherwise.
Anyway, European governments have, again, realized that threats and coercion are the best method to get people vaccinated. Like France, where all health workers must be vaccinated, or they don't get paid. And there are numerous restrictions for the unvaccinated all over the EU. The choice is now between risking the socio-economic consequences of not being vaccinated and risking the negative side effects from the vaccine. Covid itself is less and less of an issue.
Everyone has to do that anyway, at any time.
The most common side effect of the vaccination is not getting Covid.
That was the last thing you wanted me to hear from you? You should have been nicer. Had I just died, then I'd spend the rest of eternity with a clarification of a TPF post floating around in my eternal mind.
Why world you do that to me?
And you believe you're so lucky that nothing bad can ever happen to you from a medication?
We've always found truth through our fictions. Today is only different from shortly before because we don't share a mythology and the paradigm is shifting a few degrees. We're just cycling about as we always have.
Nothing is new under the sun.
No, I take on the risk of crossing the street.
It's not the same thing. When crossing the street, you don't actually think of it in terms of risks, do you? I don't. I doubt anyone does.
I usually don't entertain probabilistic reasoning when deciding about things. I decide based on value, importance, not on some projected likelihood of a particular outcome. That's how I do a lot of things that by some objective calculation have a low chance of succeeding.
But I become cautious when someone puts forward a projected likelihood of a particular outcome and claims that since the probability of something going wrong is low, it's okay to go ahead and do it; or more, that I must therefore do it. I hate to gamble on important things.
Quoting T Clark
In the "The importance of psychology" thread, which made me think of:
Note that my brain isn't really working since I've been awake for over a day...
:rofl:
If I remember correctly, this is the source that brought the phrase "girly man" to public notice, at least in the US. First use at about one minute in.
nice
Hi dude! Whatsup! Long time no see!
It's a good observation.
I know my indians like to push my buttons and I imagine it is amusing to them. :starstruck:
BUT I do have a long memory for paybacks and make it abundantly clear that it is payback.
It's a pretty lively debate here at the ranch especially when it gets political but I am up for change, usually.
I let them get excited, take a mile of humor out of a moment of absurdity and then, just so they don't forget who is the parent, I drop the mic with what has been described as being "savage" in nature on my closing comment. :joke:
I know them, I know their story :100:
Thank you for your thoughtful responses and I appreciate your support, I feel it, I really do.
:flower: :flower: :flower:
I cannot imagine life without you :heart:
People are funny if they're mad, but not people are funny iff they're mad. Sometimes people are just funny.
Just a little worn down lately, don't mean to be overly unpleasant...
In an ideal world this would inspire others, leading Moscow, Kansas to invade Moscow, Russia, for example.
If you only knew...
You are not being unpleasant in the slightest, I promise you. :flower:
I'm right down there with you but I am happy I am not alone :flower:
In fact it does very mildly annoy me when I'm looking for information about a place and Google gives me information about some American city. Recently I went to Sain Petersburg and when I was looking for information, Google wanted to tell me about some place in Florida.
Dude, I was 16 flying home to Chicago from AZ and my Mom asked me to call her during a layover.
I barely had time to deplane, find a payphone and called her and said that I made it to Kansas! And just like Dorthy we are about to take off in horrible weather :yikes:
All I could hear her saying was "You aren't in Kansas! You're in Kansas City!"
And Freaking the fuck out about getting back on the plane that took me to the wrong state?
Yeah, I calmed down on the plane but for a moment, I was a woman without a state.
Thanks for this, I didn't know about this word.
But is Kansas really such a bad state to get stuck in?
There's a Rome, Athens, and Dublin, Georgia. In fact, the American cities were the original ones and they were named this way after the European cities were. That something could have been the original yet postdated another is part of American exceptionalism you likely don't understand.
St. Petersburg, FL is much nicer than whatever the hell Russia has going on. Not sure where one might get fresh oysters in St. Petersburg, Russia, but I could find you some in Florida.
Really? They always tell me not to deplane until the unbuckle seat belt light comes on. Otherwise, I'd just pop up the minute the plane hit the ground and run for the door like all the other excited travelers.
I didn't have oysters when I was there, because I found an excellent Israeli restaurant, and I'd never been to an Israeli restaurant before, so I ate there every day. And of course, they didn't serve oysters. America also beats Russia on tacos and chowder.
Quoting Hanover
As a joke I was going to say that we use the word "unboard" in British English, but it turns out we actually do.
Nice metaphor. I won't upvote it because you're clearly already paying someone off to do that.
Quoting Hanover
And sometimes people are actually funny on purpose.
You are most welcome :flower:
And have you ever been to Chicago? :heart:
Yes, Kansas is just a drive thru state :eyes:
I've only been to Kansas once. No, not Kansas City. I liked it there. The people were friendly and it's hard to find a bad steak.
Is that Chicago, Kansas or Chicago, Zimbabwe?
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
At least it's not just a fly-over state. Driving thru, you can stop to have a look at the rock in a cage.
Here are pictures of Massachusetts' famous apocryphal rock.
Note that we keep ours in a fake Greek temple rather than a cage. That just shows you how much more we revere inauthentic history than they do in Kansas.
Oysters aren't kosher, so you won't find them in Jewish restaurant. The reason they're not kosher is because they don't chew their cud and they don't have cloven hoofs. Pigs aren't kosher because they don't have gills or scales. Hummus is kosher as long as it's killed in the ritualistically correct way.
Correct. My favorite part is where the Pilgrims carved the date into the rock when they deshipped.
Keeping in mind that 30% of the people on the forum get all their knowledge about Jewish culture from you.
I think whatever befalls a person who relies upon the comments posted by a random guy off the internet with an avatar of the town drunk from Mayberry is justified.
Well I guess they got settled in first.
But what is the converse of "deplane"? To get on a plane is not to "plane". It's all too confusing.
I don't know, but I do like the word "degloving." It creates a neat visual, as in, "Jethro wasn't paying attention to the belt in the corn dehusker and the thing just about degloved his hand, arm, shoulder, neck and torso." Sounds like that would have stung a day or two, right?
Pit bulls occasionally deglove people's faces. The experts just push the face back on there.
But what kind of unoriginal dimwit names the place they arrive the same as the place they set out from?
Pig will be kosher when the messiah comes. https://jewinthecity.com/2019/09/when-moshiach-comes-will-bacon-and-pork-be-kosher/
For that reason, every Jew keeps a package of bacon in his glove box in his car in case the end of times hits around brekky time. The package is taken to the rebuilt temple (located at One Holy Temple Plaza, Jerusalem, IS) and it is fried to crispy perfection. It is then, and only then, that the era of eternal happiness is ushered in.
Now I know about pigs and the coming of times when they shalt be allowed to be eaten.
The above book interests me as of recent.
https://www.amazon.com/Return-Kosher-Pig-Itzhak-Shapira/dp/1936716453
That book is actually not a Jewish book, but a book about Messianic Judaism (aka Jews for Jesus). It's Christianity. Jews, while not agreeing on much else universally, do pretty much universally deny the divinity of Jesus.
That is, that book fails under my stringent standard of being 30% Jewish accurate.
You're not just a random guy, you're a random Jewish guy.
Yes, they settled in for 260 years before they carved it.
According to Wikipedia:
John Smith named the area Plymouth (after the city in South West England) and the region 'New England' during his voyage of 1614 (the accompanying map was published in 1616). It was a later coincidence that, after an aborted attempt to make the 1620 trans-Atlantic crossing from Southampton, the "Mayflower" finally set sail for America from Plymouth, England.
You're the best man. Thanks for that. You're not generally random either, but are random in your own specific way too. :victory:
For the sake if accuracy, I cite the rest of the Wiki article:
"Following the arrival at Plymouth, a now defunct auto manufacturer was established, having produced a mini-station wagon called the Volare. The vehicle was purchased by the Hanover clan and used for a few years until discarded due to its unreliability."
Shockingly specific and accurate Wiki article, right?
"When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one's feet. This morality is by no means self-evident… Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole.”
I'd have responded:
The faithful do not live within the ruins of God's cemetery, and are confused by the distant wails of those mourners, wondering why they don't just resurrect the eternal god they killed, whose return can be effected by a simple act of the will.
Is Truth so important that it should replace Meaning, justifying the desolation that results?
Random and its diminutive, 'randy'.
"What year did Plymouth Volare come out?
1976
With so much going wrong, the new compacts couldn't arrive soon enough. At the end of 1975—a disastrous year in which Chrysler lost $260 million ($1.25 billion in 2021 dollars) and failed to pay a dividend on common stock for the first time since 1933—the 1976 Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare finally made their debut."
I don't think they had infant seats to put little Hanover in, back then. "Originally “child seats” started out as nothing more than burlap sacks with a drawstring that hung over the headrest on the passenger's seat."
When we bought live chickens at a farm, we brought them home in burlap bags. Worked for chickens, worked for kiddies. Just toss the bag in the trunk -- perfectly safe.
K-cars followed the Volare, as in Special K, K Pop, Ketamine...
Here's Hanover himself:
I've been suspicious of the increase in @Hanover's upvote tally, so I checked. All but three of his upvotes since you reopened the system were from three members - @HughGRection, @Ben Dover, and @HarryPNess.
Slavaboo
Yeah as much as I like a good cowboy hat, even as a Space Cowboy, it looked a little cheesey.
I like the idea of getting us closer to exploring another frontier because our time here on Earth cannot sustain a few more million years.
So yes I am totally excited that capatilism is alive and well though it appears a space craft is replacing the yaht and BMW.
:rofl:
The monkeys are back.
Most of Minnesota is under a serious air pollution warning from the smoke. Haze, heat, humidity. In 2018, I think it was, the smoke from the western fires swirled down to street level in Minneapolis. It stank from all the non-tree things that had burnt up--cars, houses, roofing, asphalt, etc.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost
I open the floor for bids to take on this project, which I would expect will reward you with great esteem, but not financial gain, as you do understand, that will be retained by me. Self promotion, after all, is an integral part of the Hanoverian system.
And what gives credence to my greatness is that the word "Hanoverian" does not get caught by spell-check, meaning it's already a household word.
I suspect you've already programmed in a governor that limits my upvotes to less than yours.
I bid one and a half turds.
You say that, but when I come to collect, you won't pay. It happens all the time. All talk.
Urgh, "influencers". Those people have the most punchable faces ever.
(Edited multiple times because my non-native English is acting up)
One time you said to be thankful to people who show you what you're good at. I still think about that one.
I don't remember saying that, but what I did when I read that was to go back through my old posts and gain wisdom from the things I've forgotten, making me my own teacher. When you're operating at a level as high as me, you can only learn from yourself. I suppose this is how God learns. He reads from his own Bible.
For real though, it's interesting to see how one's own attitudes, demeanor, and worldview evolves over time. I wonder if people consciously register these shifts in themselves or others.
I'll be flamboyant and say that some people don't need to change while others clearly need a revaluation of their conception of themselves.
Yeah, assholes exist.
Pigs are such intelligent animals and don't need to be killed in bulk. I'm so sad that people have to kill pigs for their meat...
I consider myself such a hypocrite on the matter though. Ehh
I think you need to recalibrate your notion of flamboyancy.
Now please tell us that you didn't learn that from Twilight!
@Shawn
The Flamboyant Pig.
This would be a good name for a BBQ restaurant in San Francisco.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/570229
I really like that and now introduced to Franz Marc, ta :cool:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Marc
Continuing the theme...
'Censored art and naughty pigs – take the Thursday quiz'
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jul/22/the-guardian-thursday-quiz-general-knowledge-topical-news-trivia-july-22
Don't really know what you mean there. Flamboyant is just what it means.
Amity!!!
How are you?
I don't think wisdom accumulates. I think it comes and goes, so everyone could benefit from reading a past post or journal.
Anyway, I have a couple of clients that are international travelers, one has been trying to get back to France to see family as she knows as her Parkinson's gets worse, her travel will become limited. She usually travels for three weeks at a time and she flipped out over the COVID 19 Vaccination mandate that goes into effect in less than 2 weeks. She said that the government said no vaccination, no food!!!
As I thought she was over reacting I did a quick look and there is a nugget of truth in what she says.
Nugget
Do you think it would work where you live?
Fine thanks, enjoying the blethers on here :nerd:
And you ? Don't tell me - wallowing ?
A little. Nice to see you. :cool:
It's good to be back in touch.
Take care :sparkle:
Probably not. Btw, even people who are vaccinated are getting the delta, so vaccination doesn't stop transmission. It keeps people from getting really sick, tho.
Awesome! The guy from the Mayo clinic says everybody is going to get delta. It's that contagious.
The idiots guide to reading?
Upvote for "That Mitchell and Webb Look."
From: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/united-kingdom/scotland/articles/10-contemporary-scottish-writers-you-need-to-know/
I found Janice Galloway. Haven't read her yet...but intend to...
Quoting theculturetrip: 10 contemporary Scottish writers
More here:
https://www.janicegalloway.net/about-janice-galloway
I am so sorry my friend :broken:
Please tell me what I can do to make it easier for you? :flower:
I meant the beginning of the pandemic. I was being kind of ironic. Our ancestors did wars and depressions. We did a minor pandemic. I don't know, it's hard to judge.
The first wave of the pandemic or the latest one?
Our ancestors dealt with this in America. My Grandmother was a Nurse during the Polio outbreak as well as another. My Uncle keeps reminding us that we come from a long legacy of service to our fellow man.
What are the symptoms of the people who are coming in with?
Are you afforded mental health care?
I appreciate that about you. :flower:
It cannot keep enough weight on the tires to the road while keeping the engine running through the oversized puddle.
Yes, my indian and I sat in the car, in the middle of the intersection , blocking every lane without a tow hook to save our lives. Plenty of men with big trucks to help but nothing to grab onto.
Cowboy walked up, said pop up the hood and he looped the tow strap around some solid part of the engine and we are out!
Now we are back at the ranch with the power out and it won't be back on until midnight.
Hope you all stay safe :flower:
Covid symptoms are all over the spectrum, so we do a lot of testing. I don't get involved unless they need help with breathing or oxygenation. At this point, just about everyone who's coming in for Covid isn't vaccinated. A handful are, but they're not bad.
Polio killed many people over time, but nowhere near as fast as Covid has. Of the 57,628 polio cases reported in 1952, 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis. Since it appeared in late 2019 or early 2020, of 34,000,000 US cases, 610,000 died. In the US, at least, the death rate is higher for polio (less than 6%) than for Covid (less than 2%). Worldwide, 4,000,000+ have died, out of about 200,000,000 cases--about a 2% death rate.
Polio has almost been extinguished, except in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and a couple of places in Africa where lunatic Islamic leaders are against vaccination. Covid has proven itself to be a year round infection (no summer time holiday for it) and has produced two extra-problematic variants, Beta (South Africa) and Delta (India). How many more letters in the alphabet will be needed is anyone's guess.
Polio benefitted from research and an excellent public relations campaign. People coughed up money for the March of Dimes (AKA the Infantile Paralysis Association) and got vaccinated as soon as the Salk shot was available, and later the Sabin oral vaccine. Covid-19 suffered from bad PR from the start and political manipulation for entirely personal purposes by Donald Trump et al, may they burn in Hell. (Or at the very least, be subject to several preventable diseases in Purgatory. Let's say, AIDS, Hepatitis B & C, Polio, and Smallpox.)
Subscribing info is available here
Ahhh, I see it. Merci beaucoup!
So this is the place where I can paste silly stuff? :cool:
No, no. Only the highest quality, artistic, most sophistimicated videos are allowed here. Save the stupid stuff to clutter up the serious threads.
I just don't know how to degrade AN threads...
*sigh*
It is hard to watch the ones you love not enjoy the quality of life that hopefully everyone does.
:flower:
Hmmmm ..... :brow:
They can stop calling, mailing and leaving messages anytime now.
It always amazed me. I turned 50 almost 20 years ago and AARP has never contacted me. I think they may have heard my mental age is still 17.
Mmhmm ....
I'm wondering if my "friends" are at work here.
I'm getting advertisements for final resting places!
Which reminds me of this cool marketing campaign this cemetery uses in Chicago for at least the last 40 years.
There is a simple black on white billboard that says "Don't feel like you have to hurry. We will be here."
:death:
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
A little voice inside my head said
Don't look back, you can never look back[/i]
As for AARP, it is a major miracle (up there with changing water into wine) that they haven't contacted you, since they apparently budget 50 pounds of junk mail to everyone over... what, 45? 50?
I think moderators should establish a rule that anyone who uses "sigh" as a response to a post is automatically banned.
'It's My Party and I'll Cry If I Want To' - Lesley Gore 1964
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acRMALrg1t4
:sigh:
Wouldn't it be more inclusive if we instead nominated a current emoticon to signify a "sigh"?
Unless of course it isn't really the "sigh" so much as it is the disappointment of the lack of the others understanding, lack of validation or maybe the lack of motivation to beat your head against the wall again after a simple interaction?
Just curious :grin:
Okay that literally took no effort whatsoever :rofl:
And the first person to say "Get a raft" is toast!
Let me explain. It's simple. I like to hear myself talk (or watch myself write) and I hadn't in a while, so I wrote my post, as I do with many of them, with no purpose or justification except to say "Hey, look at me."
Ban all emoticons, I say :100:
Lazy, lazy people :naughty:
I like that explanation! It's genuine and accurate for almost all of us here on one level or another. :sparkle:
Jump in ? And party :party:
Hah. That ain't the case. TC was hitting on someone. Yup.
Not me. Cos I haven't *sighed* in a while. But it makes me so wanna *sigh* :roll:
To be fair to myself, I have been trying to restrict my most self-displaying posts to the Shoutbox.
I am sitting here, resting my bones. Wasting time. Watching you watching me.
My name is Otis. I should be sitting on the dock of the bay * whistles*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug
I like your country. Do you like mine ?
A stroke of what/who ?
It's either day or night
If it's day, we don't need lights because there's sunlight.
If it's night we don't need lights because we're sleeping.
Ergo,
We don't need lights.
You are lucky if you can sleep throughout the nights every single day. I need the lights in the night to read my phone if I can't sleep. I thought that you would need the lights being the true twilight philosopher, or perhaps you thrive in the shadows of the gothic underworld.
We need lights during the day because there are places we have to be where the sun doesn't shine. We need lights during the night because we don't always sleep when darkness falls.
Back to the phone...
Does reading the phone help you get off to sleep - or does it stimulate you ?
I'm like that with a book I can't put down. Really annoying...
It's OK if you don't have a job to get up for...no harm done...only self-harm (negative health impact).
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/prescriptions-life/201804/6-ways-night-time-phone-use-destroys-your-sleep
Have you tried listening rather than reading ?
I can give 2 examples:
Set radio with timer to shut off after 40, 60 or 90 mins. ( some investment )
Librivox audio files ( free downloads )
Then there's this on how to mitigate the effects of Blue Light:
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/bedroom-environment/blue-light
And so on...
:yawn:
Fuckity fuck fuck fuck!
Please know that you don't have to answer any of the following questions :sparkle:
Okay, where did you get the antibody test?
Which Covid-19 Vaccination did you get?
When did you get the vaccine?
Did you have COVID 19 illness either before or after your vaccination?
Mmmmggggggrrrrrmmmmm .
What do I do if I have to travel to the East coast?
NicK needs to be Vaccinated Asap but I told him to prepare for feeling shitty. Now it is about scheduling down time.
My eldest indian is willing to get vaccinated, now it's a matter of convinence. Since he is putting on 3 shows a weekend with people from 21-44 years old, selling out thousands of tickets.
They have had to deal with the monsoons interrupting their shows on delay and one cancelled half way through.
What is the predominant variant my friend?
I find that listening to music on headphones is a far better way of copying when not being able to sleep than writing on a phone.I find dance music good for meditating when I can't sleep. My consciousness dances into unknown dimensions.
Whatever works :sparkle:
I've been in a study through my doctor. I do an antibody test every month and they get a picture of the test results. The tests have always shown that I have the long term antibodies (there are two kinds, short and long term). This month the test was negative.
Your doctor could probably test you if you want.
I got the Pfizer 1st and 2nd shots last December and January, so I've been vaccinated for about 7 months. Other people I know who are in the study are still showing up positive, so it may just be me.
I've never had any covid symptoms.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
Delta is becoming predominant in the US. If my experience is normal, your family will be safe for about 7 months at least after vaccination.
Be aware that if you get it, there's a drug you can get through your doctor that has been shown to stop the progression. It's made of antibodies, I think. I'll get the name.
So if you get symptoms and you get a positive test, ask your doctor for the Eli Lilly drug.
Oh, wait. The Lilly one is on hold. I would ask for one of the other antibody drugs if I developed symptoms.
Halleuuu?
What'chu up to?
Bein' dumb; you?
Being stupid...
Dumb is just mindless; stupid is mindfully dumb. Come at me brah
Hmm... mindless, or anti-minded...
Not sure how to dumbfound the dumb... shit...
Like this:
Quoting Wosret
I for one am dumbfounded
This one's pretty hot, though, right?
I'm dumb, but I don't find it hot. I'm also not into bestiality...
But if you were a duckbilled platypus... I guess you pass the test. Either that or you're just ashamed.
But I never claimed to be a duckbilled platypus. Do I wish I was? I'll leave that for later...
I know, I did. I just wanted compliments.
If that photo of a duckbilled platypus is you, then I would describe you as jolly. I think of "jolly" as a compliment.
No, no. I'm a different one. That one just reminds me of another one... we're going through some difficulties. Doesn't mean they still aren't taken though.
Wait so I can't date any of these platypodes?
I look more like this one.
Well, better not, that's all I'll say.
Are you a lamb in platypi clothing?
No, I said I look more like it. I'm as platypus as them come. No one platys the pus better.
How duck-billed would you identify as?
I clearly have a duck bill, didn't you see? Right there for the eyes.
I'm as hurt by my own use of a dangling modifier as you are by what I can only assume is your own self-inflicted platypi pain
Don't read nothing weird into that... you don't know what cool magics exist. I'm just trying to entertain and distract myself.
This is very true. :chin:
That dangling modifier is really danglin' though. I'm suffering
I'm not actually supposed to be cool, it should be cute magic... can't have everything.
I don't like cute magic, it's too bawdy. I think you should be more bawdy and less cool.
I, love grammar,
As a personification of discord and chaos, I'm contractually obligated to violate all rules to as least some degree.
If that's your directive, you have met your totally disappointing match
With weird punctuation? But can you pronounce your punctuations? Cicero didn't think you could read unless you could.
Ah, something like a typical @180 Proof post?
He doesn't write with a lot of emotion. In the book the Red and the Black, Julien writes letters... I forget what about, maybe in search of a financial sponsor? But he writes in run on, broken sentences with errors to imply strong emotion.
I disagree, but in the words of @180 Proof himself: :up:
Woah, ok, lead the way oh platypus!
:grimace:
What if you were a platypus and didn't know it? Then what?
If I was a platypus and didn't know it, I would be overjoyed when I learned that I was a platypus. Swimming plus duck-bill abilities? Come on
Even better than your current puffball avatar?
My avatar isn't a puffball, thank you. It's some sort of Eurasian tit that j@jamalrob is better at identifying than I am because it's from his half of the land. But it's also my spirit bird, thank you.
Yes, my spirit animal is not a platypus...:yikes:
Most birds are fine, it's the big ones you gotta worry about.
Because I need company.
Consumer consumption.
Your face, your head, your body, your abode, your identification documents, your location …. etc
longevity.
Are you there yet?
Where?
Mount Doom...
I heard it wouldn't work anyway. I'm on the market for a better one currently. The rings don't work on anyone above level 13 anyway, they're kind of useless.
A better mountain?
Ain't no mountain high enough.
Those are pretty cute mountains.
Spacetime gets philosophical.
Curious what your position on the COVID-19 vaccination is...
Is that a unintentional consequence of the support? I don't think so. I think it has been a totally foreseeable outcome to some degree. We could argue about to what degree but that is really not where my rub is.
My rub is why can't prioritize our US citizens to be hosted in local hotels BEFORE we host undocumented, asylum seekers?
We can but it is going to take courage. The courage to take care of our own while we try to care about everyone.
Maybe get the money to do that from cracking down on offshore tax havens instead of taking it from the vulnerable and the desperate. I mean the false choice here is glaring. You're the richest country in the world. You can sort your shit out without making the most needy suffer ffs.
This response really makes no sense. Every country evicts tenants who don't pay rent. If they don't, landlords have to provide housing for free, which is exactly what has been going on during the Covid moratorium. There is government housing and there are government programs for rent assistance, but the burden should not be on random landlords that happen to have tenants that can't pay. It's not like landlords are this rich class of people that can afford to provide social security to the general public.
You also can't make the assumption that these evictions will result in homelessness. It's likely they'll result in having to move to lower income housing or moving in with someone else. Of course, if it means homelessness, like I said, there are avenues for government assistance, which don't include forcing landlords to take in free renters.
And keep in mind as well, the rent moratorium was a benevolent gesture, where the government did in fact see to it that people were taken care of. That special assistance was provided during a pandemic doesn't mean that forever forward people get to live rent free in someone else's home.
But heaven forbid we interfere with a pristine wild-refuge of the ultra-rich...
For they are an endangered and easily spookable specie; should they be forced to speculate against their own shadow before third-quarter, they might just decide to up and take flight, like some majestic and farcical phoenix bird, dripping fire and acid below on entitled landlords and tenants alike.
They'll take their hoards and move to a space station, leaving us mutants to choke our last in the dust of a barren world. Cough.
It's the interweaving of asylum seekers into the issue I was objecting to there, primarily. The rent moratorium debate should not be yet another opportunity to blame 'them' for taking from 'us'.
Average landlord salary in US: https://www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-landlord. Are these the ultra-rich?
They probably used terms like
hogwash
falderol
flapdoodle
Or my favorite that should have made a comeback a few years ago but failed to do so, trumpery
The era of blustering politicians spewing pure ideological drivel, sending young men to go kill other young men, giving other blustery politicians an excuse to send other young men to go kill those young men. The term definitely feels like a fit.
Flim-flammery, hum-buggery, and jiggery-pokery are objectively the best ones...
...
But if the 20th was so terrible that it managed to kill whimsy itself (evidenced by the lost linguistic gems mentioned above), turning everything to shit, what sort of stronger term might we require in the 21st, where any lasting public discourse exists in pure flashing neon hyperbole?
This has been going on since Noah walked down the gangway and will likely still be going on when our machine overlords finally take over. And maybe after.
Interesting, where did you find that. I had a discussion about bullshit a while ago and looked up the word, but never found that. The earliest use I found for it was as in forceful from the 1800's.
Quoting VagabondSpectre
I had always wanted to use balderdash, but never found a opportunity to do so until a few years ago at a diplomatic party I was invited to. After a bottle of white wine I asked the ambassador why he had pronounced a speech with so much balderdash in it about the local government. He laughed and said it was because they are not allowed to lie. "More balderdash" I murmured. I was never invited to another party.
Pig shit is considerably smellier than bullshit, and both pork and beef producers will tell you that pig or bull shit "smells like profit".
Quoting VagabondSpectre
Well, "bull" was in use back then, but not quite in the sense of "bullshit":
It is time to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.
Goat shit has no detectable smell and forms in small dry pellets. You can step on it without negative effect, no squeezing between your toes and no malodorous lingering. It's delightful really. It is why you never hear someone use the term "goatshit" in a demeaning way. In fact, should someone make such an attempt, they'd be laughed right out of all proper goat farming circles as someone who simply has no experience with those lovely droppings.
Chicken shit on the other hand isn't as delightful, and so it has formed an understandably poor reputation. In the back of the Hanover estate, I have an area that has been dug down where I discard the chicken shit and wood shavings I clean from the coop. I refer to this hole with a colloquialism you may not be familiar with -- The Shit Hole. Small bugs and worms find this Shit Hole a nurturing dwelling, lending itself to the ironic activity of the chickens returning to their feces to peck out a meal. I say it's ironic because their waste is now their gain.
In any event, thank you for this conversation. I do love to talk shit in the morning.
How many people seeking asylum can your county, parish, township handle/absorb daily?
How many people seeking asylum do you think your country can absorb daily?
I am asking for general numbers but numbers none the less.
Our NGO's as generous as they are, have a tipping point and before you tell me that we are some Ivory tower country, I ask you for numbers because we cannot handle the influx.
It sure does appear that this open border asylum seekers being treated "humanly" is no longer an issue because President Biden and Vice President Harris are getting to the "root" of the reasons why the asylum seekers are heading to America instead of trying to stay in their home country.
I know why, do you?
Thing is Goats, much like toddlers, can turn attitude on a dime so never turn your back to them. :worry:
Right, so it has nothing to do with the rent moratorium, you just don't want so many asylum seekers around. If so, simply make that argument. No problem with that. My objection is to the political tactic of conflating these issues.
I live in a small town of a couple of thousand and about 5% of the population are asylum seekers to the best of my knowledge. I don't see any problem handling that. Unfortunately, our local representative is a racist prick, so they probably don't feel very welcome.
The US, with a population of ~340 million, takes in about 20,000 refugees a year. Germany, with a population of ~83 million, took in 1.4 million refugees between 2015 and 2017.
You are only seeing it in the context of what you are exposed to. We as Arizona residents are being priced out of rentals. It is one of the reasons that my ranch has gone from 2 people to 5.
Okay so I am able to absorb this and Should provide as I can.
Okay now understand that two of my residents are in Phase 4 of the COVID 19 lockdown.
Arizona has made it out of the COVID 19 lockdowns, and mandates out of phase 4.
They are working again.
Less than 10% of asylum seekers (yeah I pulled that % out of my ass and I believe I am being generous) are tested for COVID-19 but are out of DHS care to even receive the results. Where do they go you ask? Onto Gray Hound buses throughout the country.
Knowing that: are you still okay with what we are dealing with?
Finally and the fucking reason I bring up the 70k families that are going to be affected by the rent moratorium and the asylum seekers is quite simple. I watched a man over 70 years old, pushing a grocery cart in 110*, having soiled himself for what looks like weeks, to stop and take a break against the outside of a upscale hotel, not going inside for cool air, water, a shower and a pot to piss in, just to rest.
All the while knowing whom qualifies for those basic necessities of life and who doesn't.
That hotel he was leaning against has been converted to a longer short term place for the government to host asylum seekers.
My tax dollars are going to shelter whom?
AND before @Hanover gets to far into your head, asylum seekers are shuttled in and cared for throughthout application for benefits process.
Germany's history of acceptance of diversity is (ahem) lacking.
And yet they now make the US look lacking. Not good, eh?
Sir, we are taking in on average 6.300 people every day.
Please update your numbers.
Madam. You have misread the article.
Bloody hell, I thought it was by the horns that you grabbed it. My grandfather was attacked by a bull on his farm, he died a few months later. People said that he used to tease the bull by pulling his tail.
Now I am confused.
Grab the tail or the horns? Fuck it, I always keep away from bulls.
But then, Elsie the cow had a bull for a father, and she might enjoy kicking, trampling, and goring a human. Cows hurt farmers quite often, with malice and forethought. They look placid, laying in the shade chewing their cud, but that's exactly when they plan their next attack!
Look at that cow: clearly insane -- and she also has an odd growth between her horns.
I can link up all day long and the numbers will still be absurdly higher than the 20k annually as suggested.
My eldest indian that does visuals for 10k's of thousands of people, who has been waiting over a year to return to HUGE interstate shows, was chosen for the closing of one artists on the second night of Lollapalooza.
We got to watch it together live stream on Hulu!
Woo! Hoo! :party:
Next stop: Tomorrowland as a contributing artist this time :point:
Ps Visuals are the computer created, digital art that is behind and surrounding the artist and stage. Lazers are another person as are the pyrotechnics.
Oh that's cool :cool:
o rly?
Yep. Silent summer.
Maybe you live in an industrial zone, characterized by death, birdlessness, emptiness, and silence.
Know what kind of bird doesn't sing?
A jailbird.
Quoting Hanover
Like stuck in a Lorn video. Yea.
Catholic School Opens Nudity Door
When I was 18, I spent the summer alone at my grandfather's house working for a developer. My dinner cuisine consisted of a single rotation - beanie wennies one night followed by beans and hamburger the next. All summer long. Still love beanie weanies. Ketchup, not hot sauce. Also love macaroni and cheese (with Velveeta!), hotdogs, and barbecue sauce.
And don't forget flake mash potatoes.
Even the man who loves Velveeta considers that sacrilege.
Do y'all have fried okra up north? If not, what do you eat with collards?
I've never had it up here, but my expertise in Southern cuisine was born in the five months I spent in Tuscaloosa for work. I've had fried okra there. It was fine, but nothing to get excited about. Nothing that a good coating of Velveeta wouldn't cure.
I used to get a feed of the members that I *Follow* giving me a personalized newspaper.
I'm not sure it is available because I haven't seen it in a long time but I still get *mention* notification when someone says my name in an @.
Yes, I get a notification if my name is in @ and I do get a thread of the couple of people I follow. It could be that I need to follow more people. I used to follow a few more, but I stopped because I thought that they may think that I was stalking them.
I stalk in the open :eyes:
Oh my the reasons why....
@unenlightened because he is my mentor, my sage
@Michael because of his tattoos and nail lacquer oh my
@180 Proof because we are opposites on a few topics but the love offered is real. Much like myself people either love him or hate him. You can find me amongst the former
@Sir2u because I like to surround myself with people I aspire to be and he is
@jamalrob because he is the owner and I like to stay in the loop
@Baden because if jamalrob is occupied he is second in command
@Paul because without him we might not be together
@Banno because we are dear friends and he was my very first wrastle at the old place, plus his better half is an absolute sweetheart
@SapientiasLittleHelper because I always have hope of his return
@Benkei because we are dear friends across the miles and years
@Tobias because he is an incredible writer, amazing explainer and professional teacher
@Hanover because he is able to conjugate male to female positions on request and a very treasured friendship that I hope lasts until 15 minutes before I retire because that will likely be 30 minutes before I cease living.
@Mayor of Simpleton because he is my e brother, a fantastic listener and like myself has music in his viens.
I miss Kamryn, Mars Man, Apathy Kills, Postmodern Beatnik and sheps.
RIP Mars Man. Long live non-count nouns!
At some point when Covid is finally over, we need to do an in person meet up, maybe a potluck. I'll bring the bean salad and ambrosia. That's what my Aunt Whatshername used to bring to the gatherings and she always seemed to be in the know.
You need to bring some sort of Bohemian somethingoranother you're always talking about.
Ok, in Birmingham, England
I just meant the Catholics were one of many versions. They won out in the west. Other versions continued to thrive in the east.
No bloody way I am ever going back there.
Quoting Hanover
That might be OK, though last time I asked they did not want to give me a visa.
Why do you need a visa? We're just planning a potluck. You trying to move in?
I actually didn't notice the trending page and wasn't aware I'd turned it off. I guess as you say it's connected with the reputation system.
Kinda hurts to hear you say that. Me not being there and all.
You share a bedroom? That must suck. I have my own bedroom, although I share communal areas with my housemate.
That's flatmates to you, Birmy.
The correct term is "Brummie".
That somehow makes sense.
You get your own bedroom? Are you a prince or something? I have to share a bed with someone.
I feel good I made you feel better, which now makes you feel worse because I feel better, which makes me feel worse for making you feel worse, which makes you feel better, and then this goes on forever, like a roller coaster, and I don't like roller coasters, so that makes you feel better, which makes me feel better, which makes you feel worse.
I like to go past the fence to where the roller coaster flips upside down and gets close to the ground. I lie on my back and grab people's hats off their heads as they scream by. They have no idea what happened, but I make out like a bandit, with a huge collection of hats and sometimes eyes scrapings.
Went a different direction with that one. You didn't see that coming.
Drink in the belly of the day as Baden would say.
I doubt most of this story some how. Purely based on this inconsistency, and nothing else.
"I don't understand that", in the sense of genuine ignorance and curiosity, or in the sense of "you crazy, and nonsense brained stupid head"?
Nvm, you edited it to be completely different... rather than replied...
See the girl with the long hair? I took her little red derby she was wearing. That look of joy turned to sorrow when she got off the roller coaster when she noticed it missing. Her happiness made me sad, which made you happy, which made me happy, which made you sad. Like a roller coaster. Just like a roller coaster.
Nice! That was a good one upsmanship post you just posted. You're good at this. Keep up the good work.
That's a bluff sequence, from poker. The bluff, double bluff, triple bluff, quadruple bluff on into infinity, and there is but one cure. One escape.
At least she was still able to notice it, presumably with her one good eye.
It's not clear there is any aboutness to these posts, so whatever you post should fit in pretty well.
Lacking aboutness is definitely what I'm all about.
Made me think of this:
It was essentially a legal clause in that I'm too good for one upmanshiping because I don't have much of an ego.
But on a deeper reading one might assume I'm full of shit.
Who knows apart from myself, which I have very little or I'm full of shit.
On an even deeper reading it could mean that I have a shitty self!
The things I say about myself!
You're about not being about?
I'm either about nothing or nothing's about.
If something’s about, what are you about?
That something, most likely.
So you lay about until something's about, and then you're about that?
That's pretty spot on, I think.
It's contemplating life, Posty.
Ya, so is my pig. But your bird can just kinda stand on the pig and proffer from it...
Lol... Ehh
Don't worry, it's not that type of bird. It just eats a lot of suet to stay fat during the winter so it doesn't die.
If I go as a Honduran, I need a visa. If I go as an English citizen then I have to give advanced warning of plans to visit.
Last time I was in Miami airport without a visa I had to stay in the airport with a guard looking after me. That was fun because most of the guards were Cuban and by ten at night I was the only one to look after so we were all together. Try to imagine how I looked strolling around the airport with about 15 guards around me. People kept away. :rofl:
Do I need a visa if I'm coming from NY?
You'd have to quarantine in a kennel for 30 days and if no evidence of kennel cough you can go to your forever home if you can find someone to take you in.
@Sir2u is the one trying to move in with you. Sounds like a lot of work; it’ll depend on how good the potato salad is.
You don't know.
Could be, though. Did you notice how Donald Trump tried to do a coup? Did that actually happen?
It wasn't a coup. He just won an election with fewer votes than his opponent.
As long as you sprinkle it with smoked paprika, and as long as you pronounce it pa-PREE-ka.
No I am not. But even if I was they would not put me in a kennel.
I think there was a real life meetup somewhere, back in the day, probably in America. I can't remember who went.
Anyway, if there's to be another one I suggest Tbilisi rather than Atlanta.
Quoting Hanover
Tbilisi: the world’s most bohemian city
Tiff's family is from Bohemia. Maybe if they're bohemian Bohemians they'll enjoy Tbilisi.
It's 6,314 miles from Tbilisi, Georgia to Atlanta, Georgia, but I'm fine with either one just as long as I don't have to leave Georgia.
Stop the torture. I need to get out of this godforsaken city.
Pigs are really physicists, just so you know. :wink:
Great. Now they're gentrifying the Caucuses.
Check out the short story competition!
Just came back from it. A fun time, but I'm kinda half and half about it. Got any thoughts? The theater I saw it in is kinda shitty, which contributed some. The Green Knight himself was awesome; the creature design reminded me of a Guillermo del Toro vibe.
Quoting Doc Brown
Welcome. Let me be the first to offer you a philosophical riddle. What’s the end of infinity?
They aren't the sweetest grapes I've ever had, but maybe they aren't ripe? They have an odd flavor.
Don't care about the movie or your theater experience. Sorry, keeping it real. What I do need to know is your favorite movie of all time.
High Plains Drifter
I never saw it. I thought Unforgiven was really good.
Being There. That's one of my favorites.
I read Being There. It's by a Russian who escaped from the USSR.
I think the movie is different. Watch it so we can talk about it tomorrow at this time.
Can't. I work 12 hours tomorrow.
Raisins make wine immediately because they're already old.
It's not that you don't have time. It's that you don't have time for me. Wow. All I can say is "wow."
Troll 2.
The only sequel better than the original was Breakdancing 2, Electric Bugaloo.
Millennial joke, sorry
Make wine from raisins?
Nah they're small because Champagne is cold as fuck.
Raisins are actually wine turned back into grapes. The legend is Jesus turned water into wine, but he actually turned wine into raisins and then everyone left the wedding.
Which one of us is the millennial?
I have no idea.
Raisins are good for wine?
Actually raisinated grapes are used in some wine production, yeah. Amarone and some dessert wines.
I'm Generation H. Not to be confused with Preparation H.
All I know is we're in the end times since we made it all the way to Gen Z.
You should talk like Shakespeare. That'd make you sound old as shit. No one hardly talks that way any more.
I can mimic a lot of stuff, but come on man.
*Pig looks intently at the bird*
Thou dost protest too much methinks.
*Pig looks around then farts loudly*
Out, damn spot!...whaa??
*Burd looks wistfully at the pig*
*Pig makes some noise, then continues to look intently at the bird*
*Bird gracefully flutters away*
*Pig proceeds to wallow in prostration*
*Bird flits back and looks at pig thoughtully*
Nice! You are a good riddler.
I never read this word until today. I searched it in the dictionary and in my language it means “acertijo”. It is so interesting. We can learn something everyday, right?
Here is a good riddler/acertijo:
Blanco como un pergamino y pesa menos que un comino/white as a parchment and weights less than cumin.
What is it?
I thought of that but then I thought how heavy rain is.
So close! It is the smoke
In the US, "riddler" also has another meaning. "Riddler" (capital "R") is an evil villain in Batman.
I'm in physical therapy for my hip, with an appointment to see an orthopedic surgeon. In honor of that, here's an orthopedic riddle:
What did the orthopedic surgeon say to the bartender?
[hide="Reveal"]Hey, nice joint you've got here.[/hide]
Quoting T Clark
Haha :rofl: to be honest the question made me feel wacky, but the answer is unforgettable. I will never forget it.
Quoting T Clark
Interesting. I never heard about it neither because I don't like Marvel or "heroes and villians" at all...
Careful, careful - Batman is DC, not Marvel.
Well yes, I wanted to say DC. As you see I am pretty ignorant in this field :sweat:
Your ignorance is no problem. Just keep in mind that comic books are pretty much the only thing most members of the forum read before the age of 16 except for the copies of Playboy and Penthouse their older brothers kept stashed under their mattresses.
I don't really like the comic book hero movies but watched The Suicide Squad last night on HBO. Had some good funny bits, and sharkman is awesome.
*Pig shits farts, then laughed*
Thank you T Clark. See? Another thing that I learned today in this forum :up:
I never read comics. That was a different social group.
Playboy and Penthouse, very 1980s of you. That's child's play today.
Yes. I came from a kinder, gentler age when you had to hide smut. I think I'm glad I didn't have to deal with the easy access we have now.
Keep in mind I don't come from the US. I come from that exotic land known as the 1960s.
No comic books here either. I read Lord of the Rings before I was 16 lol.
Quoting Noble Dust
Yes, but be honest. You only read the dirty parts.