The actual worth of an "intellectual"
A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" - find out how he feels about astrology.- Robert A. Heinlein
So, folks, let's find your worth.
So, folks, let's find your worth.
A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" - find out how he feels about astrology.- Robert A. Heinlein
Comments (162)
I take it you're a Capricorn?
I may as well tell you now by the way, this will never make it to the 100. You can quote me on that.
"In the late 19th century, amidst the Dreyfus affair (1894–1906), an identity crisis of anti-semitic nationalism for the French Third Republic (1870–1940), the reactionary anti–Dreyfusards (Maurice Barrès, Ferdinand Brunetière, et al.) used the terms intellectual and the intellectuals to deride the liberal Dreyfusards (Émile Zola, Octave Mirbeau, Anatole France, et al.) as political dilettantes from the realms of French culture, art, and science, who had become involved in politics, by publicly advocating for the exoneration and liberation of Alfred Dreyfus, a Jewish French artillery captain falsely accused of betraying France to Germany." -Wiki
Do you have an idea, or is it just an excuse to talk about astrology - which could be fun too.
The sun was in Aquarius when I was born.
There. Quoted.
Something fishy about that answer.
He was pretty disparaging of astrology. I suspect he would have treated an intellectual who came ti its defences with disdain.
I'd suggest jumping in the deep end. If there was one.
Curiously, there are now 13 constellations in the Zodiac, including s constellation Ophiuchus, the serpent-bearer, which the Sun enters on Nov 30, 2017, and leaves onDec 18, 2017.
Any Ophiuchians amongst us?
This is my sun sign apparently. Definitely something in this. Tell me more.
My parents were obsessed with the Dice of Destiny horoscope b.s. Would make us play it every 3 months.
"Although you generally like to think of yourself as being rational and scientific, today you might surprise yourself. You could suddenly find yourself picking up intuitively on the thoughts and feelings of others, particularly those closest to you. You might find yourself answering their questions before they even ask them. Don't freak. This is just as scientific as anything else. We just don't have the why of it yet. Accept it and go with the flow."
Jesus, it just gets creepier by the minute.
As far as I know, not in the Francophone world.
Which is the only one that matter. :-*
Which is scientific, don't worry. We just don't know why or how.
If the boogeyman that lives under your bed and threatens to skin you alive every night is invisible to your parents, don't worry. It's all scientific. We know we don't know why or how, so you should know too. And this should bring you comfort as he disembowels your parents in front of you.
For a writer that spent a lot of his time writing about people going to the stars, I guess that astrology would seem kind of stupid.
I used to read his and Asimov's books when I was a kid. I doubt that he had much faith in people that had strong feelings about finding their future by the position of the stars instead of trying to get to them.
Asimov is miles ahead of Heinlein. >:o
Well, that's your fault for not starting with Prelude to Foundation. Asimov hooked him up with a girl directly in the 1st book.
And the last two books almost had too much sex, to be honest. Joy was very clearly included after someone mentioned to Asimov how few women were in his serie.
I never said he was not, just that I read them both when I was a kid. But that is your opinion so you stick to it.
And the correct measurement would be light years.
Unless I am very much in error, the prelude was written many years after the Foundation series. So Banno nor anyone else could have started with it.
Yup. Prelude was published in 1988. His earliest Foundation stuff dates back to 1951. And Banno could have read it in the correct order if only he was not so old and decrepit. I was born in the 80s, and had no choice but to read it in the proper order. See? Best part about it, I barely remember anything about the 80s!
Still. Quoting Banno could be said about a lot of great series. I mean, this describes everything by H.P. Lovecraft down to a t, and yet, Lovecraft is absolutely awesome.
I can't say who my favorite Sci-Fi writer is, there are so many I have read. I usually just stick to trying to remember the ones I did not like, it is easier.
Back in the early days of Sci-fi it was probably a lot easier to come up with new, novel ideas because anything was possible still and people were excited at any new idea. I feel sorry for the new writers that try to follow in their footsteps, trying to come up with new ideas that even school kids would not laugh at must be hard.
Nancy Ray Gun consulted astrologists before and during her time in the white house. Whether President Ray Gun was able to understand his daily horoscope or not, don't know. Probably not.
'Stranger in a Strange Land' was my favourite Heinlein novel. Years later I wrote a song with that title.
Wasn't that U2?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDwB2dLnf2o
First verse of my version:
‘You’re a stranger in a strange land
You’re the joker, you’re the wild card, you’re the third man
An outsider on the sidelines, you’re the watcher in the window in the twilight
And you dance to a song I can’t hear, and you’re so far away when you’re near me
You’re a traveller with no history
And you’re restless, you are always on your way
You don’t have much to say, you give nothing away
You’re a stranger in a strange land.’
Mine’s set to a ‘kind of blue’ style jazz theme. I don’t have a recorded version currently.
You sure it's not "librarian"?
@Punshhh - years ago I picked up one of those ‘sun sign’ books that has a page for each day and I have to say I was quite bowled over by what it said about me.
I’m not entirely dismissive of astrology, although I don’t pay attention to it.
I do believe it makes more sense...
Have you read much on Astronomy? Or on Astrology?
Why not? How could it work?
It is a means of divination, or as a mirror to the self. I also studied those books years ago and pay little attention to it now. However as I am focussing more and more on creativity, such systems are fertile grounds for creative inspiration. Another system of thought which I use is "modern art", the intellectual and conceptual appreciation of it.
That is a loaded question. I could answer one way and appear to be weird, or comment on not minding munching certain pieces of meat and be a sexist. X-)
If you are interested in the stars, you might like this program.
http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/
Maybe Jung's notion of Synchronicity, "falling together in time.” of the external and the internal as in meaningful coincidences. Astrology as a science of coincidences.
Quoting Banno
Work in what sense?
Do you mean in allowing what we read about our sign to influence our behavior or our feelings about ourselves?
Do you mean working in the sense of how we might utilize the astrological knowledge we have of another person in the form of communication or 'packaging' how others will best receive what we are trying to convey?
In its ancient form, I believe that astrology was used to predict the changing seasons and these predictions were quite useful to farmers. It may not be the first form of calendar used by human beings, as the moon calendar or a day calendar may be even earlier. But in this sense, as a calendar, I believe astrology could work. The moon calendar gets out of sync because there are not 12 even moons in a year, and the day calendar gets out of sync because there is not an even 365 days in a year. Apparently the astrological calendar gets out of sync as well, but that takes thousands of years.
This line strikes me as nonthematic and inconsistent. Someone in exile would be longing for home, the place of their historical roots. A stranger in a strange land must have come from somewhere. Such is the story of Exodus at least.
Cool lyrics nonetheless, capturing the idea of seperatedness.
If the spatiotemporal location of the heavenly bodies on the day of one's birth determined which of the twelve main kinds of people one is and/or will be...
Roughly, that is...
X-)
I mean, there are some folk who are combination as a result of being born on the cusp of or just after a change.
I am one of those new ones you mentioned, by the way. That would explain the historical inaccuracy of my horoscope...
And what about twins? Surely by this rule they would be very similar in many ways, I know several twins that are nothing like each other.
Astrology. What's not to like?
Ha, how did the Big Bang work smartie pants? Something just appeared out of nothing, eh? Bet you believe that cock and bull story. Anyway, if you must know it works the same way staring at chicken entrails can tell you who you should marry. The arrangement of random patterns takes on a non-random and statistically predictable effect when you bypass certain neuronal connections responsible for logic and common sense. It's more or less the same reason I wash my hands 1327 times a day. And I'm a better man for it. Prove me wrong. And then prove something came from nothing, ha!
*Washes chicken entrails from hands. Heads to jewellery shop to buy engagement ring.*
Keep doing that and your hands might end up smaller than Trump's.
There are, which implies it functions but not that it works. Even bullshit can serve a use though it very often just makes walking through a field less pleasant.
I am willing to read, listen and entertain astrology and those that believe in it.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I have wondered about the validity of Astrology when it comes to the birth of a child because even though current, modern thought is that a woman is pregnant 9 months, she is really pregnant 10 months, 10 lunar months. A lunar month being the four weeks (28 days, same as a procreation cycle of a woman) it takes for the moon to go from a new moon, to a full moon and back again, would make a pregnancy last for ten months.
When I think of you I think of bull so Taurus. (Hey, it could be worse; at least I didn't say Cancer). ;)
As long as it's not the same as me. That would mean we're virtually the same person. :-O
Ok, Leo. Well I would have said that but it sounded too complimentary. Now tell us how it works. Even if you don't believe a word you're saying. (Y)
Right, I understand, you didn't want to come off as too gay on me :D
Quoting Baden
How 'it' works? What's it?
Astrology...
In a bit, need to finish some work first :D - I was going to comment on Astrology.
(Y)
That obviously depends on your metaphysics. If you adopt a Hermetic position for example and go by the principle "As Above, So Below", then it's not at all mysterious how astrology could work. Then the human world would be a reflection of the heavens, and the heavens would be a reflection of the human world.
I have had my horoscope professionally done a few years ago, since one of my friends' mother back then was a professional astrologer.
I don't necessarily agree with any form of astrology in particular, but I do think that the cosmos and the human world are related.
But the heavens are really big. Isn't there more than a modicum of hubris in thinking they reflect our mundane crawling?
You are civil.
But would you believe them?
Yes, very possibly.
Depends on the zoom level you look at them at :P .
Also, the idea would be that not only do the heavens reflect us, we also reflect the heavens, so the two are always in-step. It's not like we determine the heavens.
And the additional point is that it seems a prejudice to think that something small cannot impact something large.
I wouldn't know..
I doubt you personally would need to do so.
Did I say me personally? >:O
No; I did.
Charletons.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
So Agustino, why would you think that the astrological calendar would be better than the lunar calendar, in its representations of relations with the human world?
Are you an angler at all?
Don't see many spoonologists, though. I guess astrology is just more esoterically mysterious'ish, and has a bit of (murky) history/tradition, something like that.
So, it's back to "some nebulous unknown force or influence", or whatever, that can't be differentiated from "anything goes". Having been embraced by New Age'ers, along with numerology and such, should be an indication.
[quote=http://skepdic.com/astrology.html]astrologers have more influence than the stars do[/quote]
Goodness, no. What on Earth are you suggesting?
Lol.
Why belief in astrology is not a Good Thing - especially for women.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html
Why and how?
I happen to know that astrology is a mix self delusion and superstition. I feel that it is generally stupid to employ as a decision making device but as far as superstitions go it's potentially less harmful than many others.
Astrological predictions and readings tend to work by making vague and general statements that seem specific but usually apply to anyone. I've heard them labeled as "Barnum statements" (from the famous P.T. Barnum circus' slogan "we've got something for everyone" which is what persuasive astrological readings tend to do). Consider the following reading recently interpreted by one astrologer:
"You're a very intelligent person but you could be better at saving money and organizing your relationships. You are likeable and quick to understand others, but others have a hard time understanding you. Be sure to get the extra sleep you need and you may achieve your goals for the coming months. Your predictive dream symbol is water, and your spiritually relevant number is 9."
Everyone thinks they're intelligent and most people would like to be better organized (especially people who are already well organized it seems). Everyone at least wants to think they're likable and thinks they understand others well while generally holding a much more complex understanding of themselves. Everyone tends to want more sleep and if someone doesn't have any goals for the coming months, they will probably just invent some on the spot. All of these statements more less apply to everyone but a few of them might feel like they apply perfectly. If something doesn't apply to you at all that's O.K because it only takes a few good hits to really impress someone and failures are quickly and easily forgotten. "Cold reading" they call it.
I noticed that the referred article suggested that the practising astrologer ought to use the technique of fishing. And I recognize that there is a lot of different angles to astrology; take a look at the center of that chart for example. Do you not think that the use of mathematics with the art of fishing might be productive? After all, there is a lot of so-called science which is just based in statistics and probabilities anyway.
Astonishing, isn't it, how accurate it is!
And therefore, Astrology?
Seems to be something missing here.
Hm.
Sorry for the delay, I have been on the road the last few days.
When I was young I looked into every philosophical system of thought I could find, astrology was one of them. After a while I became of the opinion that forms of divination are about people trying to find out something of interest, but out of reach. Such as what will happen in the future, or looking into a person's soul. This being the case, it is of little philosophical value, so I had pretty much put it, amongst others, behind me by the age of about 16.
This does not mean that there is no truth in it somewhere. When one looks into forms of spirituality, then traditional mythological, divination and religious systems can become interesting sources of wisdom or inspiration.
It's magic because both music and the zodiac have twelve things in them.
But how? Because folk think it pretty?
Yeah, that's right, Simplisticus...
So as to access, knowledge, or knowing of nature, other than what is provided by current intellectual knowledge and teaching.
I suggest you look in the mirror before reading books by the cover.
Guess my star sign beeeatch!
What you, what mirror, what book and what cover do you think you are referring to?
Saggy tits and hairy arse?
What argument, and what insult? It was a play on words; I thought we were just havin' a bit of fun!
I mean I didn't think the OP was meant to be taken seriously in the first place. :)
"A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" - find out how he feels about astrology."
I can't agree. Take two "intellectuals". Both think astrology is rubbish. It's quite possible that one of them is a smart intellectual and the other is, aside from his views on astrology, a fool. Conversely, a top-class intellectual might have an aberrant belief in astrology, elves or some other nonsense.
Newton believed in alchemy. Conan Doyle believed in fairies. Pythagoras thought that beans have souls. Aristotle thought that volcanic lava is made of cheese. (I made that last one up, but you get the point).
He thought that women had fewer teeth than men. Bloody idiot!
-The position of a nearby observer in relation to celestial bodies does not have a known affect on mental development or genetics.
-Double-blind studies show no correlation between the position of a hypothetical nearby observer in relation to celestial bodies and certain developmental factors which cannot be attributed to statistical artifacts.
Yes, but on the other hand, some nonsense about a pregnancy "really" being ten months, instead of nine. Therefore, astrology. (Perhaps very quite possibly maybe could be dunno).
How can astrology be justified? Beyond Jungian handwaving.
Gee, I hope I'm not on it. :)
I'm just assuming this was ironic.
Actually this was not the argument at all. There are also twelve months, twelve kinds of fermions, Kant's twelve categories of the undertsnding. Of course the signs correspond to the first, but I haven't said that the symbolic structure of astrology "maps elegantly" onto the other two. In fact, I specifically said that the signs have to be ignored. It is the basic structure, the succession of three sets of four kinds, in Astrology which maps onto musical harmony. It might correspond to Kant's categories too, but not in as elaborate a way as it does with musical harmony.
I also have not claimed any significance to this "mapping on" other than that it is beautiful (elegant) and interesting in the kind of way mathematics is beautiful and interesting.
And as I implied before this is a simplistic assumption.
Down here the greatest start sign is the Dark Emu.
Ok, fine, I live in Australia too, but what has what you like got to do with "the worth of an intellectual"? Perhaps his or her worth to you or according to what you like, but nothing beyond that, no?
(BTW, the emu looks like it's floating or prostrate; is it a dead emu?)
Almost everything can be symbolic, how is it profound? Does it map elegantly onto musical harmony?
Ever noticed the eight-by-eight broken symmetry of a chess board? Is that also mysterious and profound?
What does that symmetry relate to? By itself it is trivial. Did I anywhere say that Astrology is mysterious?
Think I might go work on "Breakfast at sweetheart's" instead.
So, you're a fan of CC? Bit early in the day to listen to that, isn't it? Doug Mulray once ran a faux competition on 2MMM where the prize was a Jimmy Barnes alarm clock...
Cool. :)
When I referred to an interest in such sources within spirituality, I took it for granted that alternative criteria may be considered.
Can you give and example or explain what alternative criteria might be used?
Astrology can be justified by the methodological process of interpersonal and spiritual individuation via an intellectual transfiguration of the mystifying understanding of the developmental uncoupling of differential jargon in a multitude of ways.
And because [i]twelve[/I].
If there is any credibility that a person's character is related to where the sun was at the time of his or her birth then that should be determinable with a few simple questions.
SO. As I said above guess my star sign!
Ask as many questions about my character, as you like then make a guess. You can even have a few wrong answers.
Any challengers?
I think not. H. G. Wells was no intellectual, but a writer of fantasies.
Pythagoras was born into a age of ignorance; ignorance he did much to dispel.
Given the growth in astronomy and science the quote on astrology sticks.
Do you live on a hillside and chase sheep? Aries. Do you use a bow and arrow? Sagittarius. Have you never? Virgo. Are you going to say my post is funny and then tell me I'm stupid? Scorpio.
It's easy when you know how.
Capricorn
You are supposed to ask questions first!