Leaving PF

Well, I know that I haven't had much interaction with you here or back at the old place, but I have always felt that the topics that you developed were born of a genuine interest in the matter at hand. I understand the frustration, which is why I tend to lurk more than respond, but i do hope that you won't let petty squabbles stop you from continuing to learn or to post, even if only once in a great while.

Quoting darthbarracuda

...I can participate more in the threads that don't inevitably lead to bitter hatred among users.

I haven't seen that happening here. I didn't see that happening much at the other PF either. People may vehemently disagree. People may zero in on a particular statement and blast away (such as has happened in the thread about armed societies being polite...). When people flew into rages, it generally seemed like the standard nonsensical rude internet behavior we all know and love so well.

But this goes with the territory. It would be terminally boring if everyone approached disagreement as a mere coding problem which required minor correction in texts. One would want to scream, "Come on, show some emotion, damn you!"

Reply to darthbarracuda We all have our ups and downs with internet forums, but you've made a really important contribution to the growing community here, and it's appreciated, so I hope at some point you'll consider posting here again regularly. Cheers.

Reply to darthbarracuda As BitterCrank suggests there are topics such as my thread on "An armed society is a polite society" where I have learned to go in wearing a helmet because I can tell that there will be incoming fire AND there was a time where I would have taken it personally. I know how taking a reply or replies personally (sometimes it is unavoidable) can build and cause a burnout of sorts.

Over time I have realized that the exchange of ideas, the argument presented against each others ideas, is all about 'ideas' not about each other. If you find that someone is dissecting your ideas, that is a positive step in the discipline we call Philosophy, if you find that someone is dissecting you, that is a negative effect on the communication of a forum and should be reported. Sometimes I wish there was a way to see these things brewing before someone gets burnt. I guess we have to be willing to talk about how we feel, before we feel like we are being cast aside.

Thank you for your being here, sharing and hopefully we will read you on the boards again soon!
Oh and anytime you feel the need for your own helmet?
Just drop me a PM and I'll toss you one for I have collected more over time than I will ever be able to put to good use. ;)

Is posting a farewell on a forum a suicide letter and attempt done for attention that may, on occasion, actually succeed? Why bother saying something if you want to leave instead of just leaving?

This isn't a bad interface.

I had dropped off PF before the sale. I'd had little of interest to say for a while; the arguments I had refuted just kept repeating, is what i'd say; but my interlocutors might differ.

Also, time spent doing Real Things has increased.

Meh. It's all Goats, anyway.

Reply to darthbarracuda Take a break if need be, then return when you're ready. That's my advice. It worked for me.

Not to sound crass, but I wonder what you do that enables you to post so much. Perhaps more of your free time could be spent reading philosophy rather than posting about it here. They're both valuable and interesting, but the former vastly more so than the latter (at least for me).

Reply to Thorongil Well, I recently quit my job so there's that.

Quoting Banno

Also, time spent doing Real Things has increased
Meh. It's all Goats, anyway.

I can relate, but a dose or two of your caprine wisdom would be appreciated anyway. Do indulge when you get the time. (Y)

Quoting Thorongil

Perhaps more of your free time could be spent reading philosophy rather than posting about it here. They're both valuable and interesting, but the former vastly more so than the latter (at least for me).

Don't know about this. I find I learn a lot more by posting than by reading alone, or posting requires more reading and so on. I tend to forget what I read fairly quickly unless I process it somehow. And writing is a good way to do that (in whatever field - I'm not just talking about philosophy here). Of course, posting off the top of your head without having read isn't good either. But I'd give reading and using (in whatever form including posting) equal weight.

Quoting Baden

Don't know about this. I find I learn a lot more by posting than by reading alone, or posting requires more reading and so on.

Agreed!

Reading alone is how many a manifesto has it's beginning... leading to subsequent explosions. :-O

Meow!

GREG

hey guys,
I've continued to hang out on The Philosophy Forum, but missed you guys, so I thought I'd stop in.

anony

Reply to anonymous66
Welcome~ 8-)

Post when the mood strikes you, when you see something you find interesting; nothing more. Pay no attention to those men, and women, behind the curtain that is the Web.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Post when the mood strikes you

Hey Ciceronianus! It's good to see you on the boards!
How has life been treating you?

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

Hey Ciceronianus! It's good to see you on the boards!
How has life been treating you?

Not as well as it should, but well enough. Getting back to Chicago at all? I'll be wandering around the Loop and River North in a few weeks.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Not as well as it should, but well enough.

Sometimes well enough is the best you can hope for. ;)
Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Getting back to Chicago at all? I'll be wandering around the Loop and River North in a few weeks.

Oh how I wish! Please tell her Hello from me and share with her how much I miss her. (L)
I was there in February for a week and stayed at the Presidential Towers, taking the train out to Westmont and Hinsdale every day and back to the city at night. My Dad is in a Manor Care facility so when I go, it's a family event and a lot of pressure. I have found taking the train back to the city allowed me to decompress and fall back into the city groove by the time we reached Union Station.
There is something about Chicago and it's might that calls me home. (L)

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

There is something about Chicago and it's might that calls me home. (L)

Me as well. In fact, I bet my bottom dollar I'll lose the blues there.

You might lose the blues in Chicago, or about as likely, get shot while they are robbing you of your bottom dollar.

Quoting Bitter Crank

You might lose the blues in Chicago, or about as likely, get shot while they are robbing you of your bottom dollar.

I'll take that bet. Chicago, is a safe town, just like Mayberry only a bit frisky! ;)

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Me as well. In fact, I bet my bottom dollar I'll lose the blues there

Similar souls~ 8-)

PF is down today. Can't even ping the server.

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff Actually, I've always had a good time in Chicago, going back to the 60s when Old Town was in its hippie hay days and as recently as last fall.

Reply to Wayfarer If only there were another philosophy forum, eh? ;)

Well I admit I'm a hopeless addict. I had already announced there in early June that I was done, finished, said all I was going to say....but what else is there to do?

Reply to Wayfarer You're not addicted. You're just always surprised that you don't stop having new things to say. 8-)

PF going down is nothing new, so I expect it's short term. In any case, welcome, bienvenue, and failte to all homeless thinkers who knock on our doors 8-) .

Quoting Bitter Crank

Actually, I've always had a good time in Chicago, going back to the 60s when Old Town was in its hippie hay days and as recently as last fall.

Awww now I am getting home sick to see Chicago in the fall and I was just there this past February. Buddy Guy is a blues singer from Chicago that I always try to catch but the closest he is going to on this tour is California, in which case it might be cheaper for me to see him in Chicago~ (L)

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

I bet my bottom dollar I'll lose the blues there

My brother had that song on a 78, back in the 1950's, that also included songs from High Society. One of my favourite politically dodgy things to do is to perform a passable imitation of the Satchmo contribution to the climax to the song 'High Society'...Bap-bip-pee-oh-mo-yeh-----uuuuuuu-teeeee...

My son works in Chicago. Looong way from me.

Quoting Wayfarer

My son works in Chicago. Looong way from me.

I will go back and say Hello from you, even give him a hug for you. Oh heck, throw in a Giordano's Pizza and it's a done deal! 8-)
All I need is your credit card number, expiration date, the three digit code on the back, mailing address and zip code and I can make all the arrangements from here. (Y)

It's OK - he's coming home for Christmas, it's not that far off. But thanks!

I have a feeling something fishy is going on at the other place.

My guess is that the hosting fees haven't been paid, and the service provider has pulled the plug.

I think you could be right. Or maybe the site wasn't making Mr Porat enough money so he decided it's not worth his time anymore.

Reply to aequilibrium It's quite possible Porat tired of trying to sell cleaning products to the crowd over there and has offloaded the site. If so, I hope he's offloaded it to someone who actually cares about philosophy. It's always been clear to me that he never did. Alternatively, he's doing some kind of a revamp. Anyway, in lieu of PF's return, I declare us the undisputed centre of the online philosophy universe. ;)

Reply to Baden (Y) :B (Y)

Reply to Wayfarer Anytime! 8-)

I have the feeling PF is going to die, unless someone steps in. My hunch about 'Vayge Media' is that they don't have a clue what they're doing or why they bought it in the first place, and that they haven't got any kind of succession (or resurrection) plan. (But then, my wife says I'm always inclined to pessimism. :( )

Anyway I will rake over the coals and try and think of some thread topics to contribute here.

They bought the PF for $ 20k!!!

I doubt they've recouped their investment since the transaction and the slow upkeep doesn't bode well for site activity in the future. Is there some ulterior business model at work that doesn't involve ad revenue?

[insert something positive here]

Dang, I hope it comes back up at least once. I want the synopsis I made of Pierre Hadot's book.

There is a way to get some data from the site. Try this http://web.archive.org/web/20160314195451/http://forums.philosophyforums.com/general-philosophy/
Unfortunately, it looks like the last save was on March 14, 2016 (even though the site suggests that there was a save done on June 24, 2016).

I wonder if the issues could be due to power outages. There have been some in some states due to recent storms.

I never understood the PF business model, but what the hell do I know? The old PF stayed afloat through a bunch of volunteers, donations, and even donated server use. When they went to the for profit model with ad use, I didn't see how they could expect the free labor and donations to continue. My thinking was that if they are going to get money through ads, all the mods and admins should expect to get paid as well. In fact, it wasn't the ads per se that made me leave as much as it was the idea that my postings in some small part were leading to profits to an organization that I had some serious misgivings about.

I think it's impossible that we not continue to grow over here, so I'm not worried about our surviving unless we just give up one day.

Call me a conspiracy nut; but, I was always under the impression that PF was a gold mine for creating an ever more intelligent chat bot. Put the database through some computer deep learning neural network and BAM! would have one formidable Banno'esk philosopher to contend with that would outdo the best philosopher in two or three sentences any day.

Reply to Question If you're going to name someone as a great example poster, at least pick Postmodern Beatnik.

Reply to Michael

I'd agree with that; but only if the qualifying criterion for "great example poster" is possessing a true mastery of deploying empty pedantry.

Is there any way to contact those who never tried migrating over to this PF? It doesn't look like old PF is going to be up and running any time soon, maybe we should try to invite them over here so we can start discussion again.

Reply to darthbarracuda I can post some fliers around my neighborhood.

Just FYI : we have a Facebook page as does PF :-} And I got a note from the PF Facebook page that they are aware of the site being down, are working to repair it and hope that this has not been an inconvenience to anyone.
Feel free to follow us on FB and be in the know! 8-)

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff I tried Facebook, hated it. Too much drama.

Been down for a long time. In any case, thanks again for this site.

What I'm feeling sorry are all the very good discussions that actually had very good links. And actually very good insights from others to philosophical questions I was interested in. When the old threads databank worked I used to go back to some old threads to get information.

Reply to ssu Yeah, I do hope they manage to get it back up. There were a number of posters I liked reading that didn't make the cross over.

Hopefully it comes back up for a bit so that we can encourage a final exodus.The only problem with this place is that, being a forum made up of posters of extremely high intellect, there just aren't enough libertarians for me to debate.

Reply to darthbarracuda

Not that this really matters much at this point, but I sent out over 200 "sort of invites" to PF members informing them of this, as I called it then "a safety boat"... uhh... in the event that PF sank. (my inner Cassandra is bitching at me right now, but I told her to shut it)

Indeed my reward for this effort was being put "under review" on PF. This entailed not being able to post anything without a long waiting period to have my posts (perhaps) posted, little or no access to my messages and the killer was this... having my "sponsor status" revoked. Ironic, as I believe I was one of the largest sponsors ever. What really griped my liver was that not even banned members had their "sponsor status" revoked. (my feeling was basically "fuck you very much!")

Anyway...

Information regarding this alternative has indeed been sent to many PF members.

Granted it has been a long time since I have been there (I never looked back) and I think I might have been alone in this effort to inform others about this alternative.

This site is a bit slower in terms of posts, but volume is no guarantee of overall quality.

As for me...

I'm simply waiting for the USA elections to end and a few other loose ends in the world to tie-up, before I plan to become more active in philosophy. I'm not too sure if I care to even return to philosophy, as the theoretical leaves me a bit cold. Currently I have far more practical applications to bother with the rhetoric of the theoretical.

Until then (whenever that happens to be) this is a non-sequitur for you darthbarracuda:



Meow!

GREG

Mr. Mayor was at the front of a hopeful coup that would undermine the the monetary investment in the PF.

I wonder what kind of historical parallels this might dredge up.

The act of a single person destroys the value of a business by some non-illegal means.

Quoting Nils Loc

I wonder what kind of historical parallels this might dredge up.

Trade Unions.

Philosophers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose.

Reply to Mayor of Simpleton Foals is much appreciated, thank you.

Finally migrated over. Never could get past the London question.
PF is no longer recognized by the name servers. Not good.

Reply to noAxioms Welcome~

Reply to noAxioms Are you looking for forums.philosphyforums.com or philosophyforums.com? The latter is recognised.

Reply to Michael OK, the latter is recognized, but in "please stand by" mode.
It is 104.27.132.146 whereas the former was 159.203.90.37. New server??

Thanks for the welcome Tiff!. I've had a helluva time signing up for some reason, but it worked without a hitch today. And this site has on the fly spell check!

Reply to noAxioms When was it 159.203.90.37? A few days ago or when Paul was owner?

PF appears to be back.

Reply to Michael That was the IP yesterday, after f.FP had been down a couple days, but was still recognized by the name server. Now both URLs are the new IP. It seems to be back without significant data lost, but I see no new posts. I see no announcements about what's going on.

The PF site is up but still throws frequent errors, and there's no up to date communication from the site owners either on the site or on the facebook page. Underwhelming. The only good source of info is here.

It's pretty broken still, I hope they get it working. I did however manage to 'download all my posts as text', which, when pasted into MS Word, amounts to 2,494 pages and 1,104,583 words. (And that's not even including posts under a previous username). I suddenly have this feeling of having been wasting a awful lot of time. :-}

Leave PF, remain on TPF

Become a Philosophy Forums sponsor and get cool rewards. Contributions so far this month have totaled $0.00. Thanks!

I like the unintended double entendre of the word "thanks" here, in light of the monetary amount.

Bit sad that the old Forum isn't working well. Good that it at least came back.

The Prevent forest fires Smokey add is ok. Yet in general it is a bit pathetic with the ads, but still at least the new owners are trying.

TPF 1 - PF 0

Why not just abandon that sinking ship and opt with a superior alternative? No ads, no likes/dislikes, no track record of the site going down, no forums dedicated to pseudo-philosophy and unmoderated nonsense, better design, features and functionality (including auto-save drafts and a superior quote function), an owner you know and trust...

noAxioms has the right idea. It's just a pity that there are others who still cling on, rather than reunite in a better place.

There will be a day when this site goes down and everyone will run over to PF waiting for this site to come back up. Mark my words.

Don't listen to the lizard, he's the Devil in disguise and he's just trying to tempt you, like that time in the Garden of Eden when he was mistaken for a snake.

Quoting Hanover

There will be a day when this site goes down and everyone will run over to PF waiting for this site to come back up. Mark my words.

Well...

... if so, that makes me no one or if I'm part of everyone then you are dead wrong.

Meow!

GREG

Good point. I've not posted over there since Black Wednesday. I don't know if the takeover occurred on a Wednesday or not, but as far as I know, there are no other Black Wednesdays, so from this point forward I move that it be so called. Anyone second my motion?

Quoting Hanover

Good point. I've not posted over there since Black Wednesday. I don't know if the takeover occurred on a Wednesday or not, but as far as I know, there are no other Black Wednesdays, so from this point forward I move that it be so called. Anyone second my motion?

Try being a little more melodramatic about it and you might get my vote.

Just call it something simple like,
"The black day the philosophical light went out"
Like I said something simple. :D

Reply to Hanover Seconded. (I thought about moving that it occurred on the 6th of June at 6 minutes past 6, but we may not get away with that one).

I'll go with "The Great Divorce"...

... as it could be said "Black Wednesdays Matter".

Meow!

GREG

PF seems totally broken now. I think what has happened is, it has a huge amount of custom code which got built over the period of a decade, now that major problem appeared the new ownership doesn't have the skills to fix the problems. So the site is up but it's basically non-functional.

I say we start a subversion tactic and start a propaganda campaign about the virtues to be found at this website. We can promote this place as freedom from smokey, an agent of big brother always watching and instilling fear about us humans that start wildfires.

[quote=Wayfarer] I think what has happened is, it has a huge amount of custom code which got built over the period of a decade, now that major problem appeared the new ownership doesn't have the skills to fix the problems.[/quote]

Actually it has almost no custom code. They just can't seem to keep parts of the database from crashing, for some reason, perhaps suggesting they've stuck it on an overloaded web server. Well, perhaps the main problem is that if it does crash they don't bother to look in and fix it for weeks.

If they ever reported any software issues to me, I would -- as the software developer -- of course quickly fix them. They haven't, so if they're having any software problems they don't seem to have any desire to fix them.

[quote=Nils Loc]I doubt they've recouped their investment since the transaction and the slow upkeep doesn't bode well for site activity in the future. Is there some ulterior business model at work that doesn't involve ad revenue?[/quote]

Don't underestimate the possibility that rich kids can be incredibly stupid and wasteful with their investments and then quickly get tired of them and move on to the next exciting thing, too. Even if they had an ulterior revenue source, squandering the ad revenue was still stupid.

Thanks Paul. I had guessed there was a lot of customisation due to all the tweaks you had made but you would know better! It's a shame they've let it go, but that appears to be what has happened.

.Quoting Paul

Don't underestimate the possibility that rich kids can be incredibly stupid and wasteful with their investments and then quickly get tired of them and move on to the next exciting thing

This. I don't think Porat ever came close to understanding the value of what he had with PF or how to nurture it. The best thing would be if he sold it on to someone of a less commercial and more intellectual persuasion.

I called it from the first couple of days when the site went down. I said there was something fishy going on and that they probably realised they weren't making any money and simply abandoned the site.

Well, I'm gonna stick with the user name Mayor of Simpleton.

Although ????????? could be a good alternative.

Meow!
(indeed)



GREG

The other place is officially dead to me, it is beyond hopeless. Still, I can't quite shake the feeling that some thing fishy is going on (my guess is money laundering) and that pisses me off. I mean who pays tens of thousands of dollars for a website when they take no interest in actually running it as a legitimate business?

Reply to aequilibrium Buying something that has value and then wrecking it sounds more like a money toilet than a money laundry. Don't you have to get the money out, in some way, to erase the odor of sleaze?

Reply to Bitter Crank It worked pretty well for General Motors. They bought metropolitan public transit systems and then wrecked them so that they could sell more cars. The citizens of those cities have been paying the price ever since.
http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/ctc06.html

Reply to andrewk GM (Standard Oil, Firestone Rubber, et al) at least a rational business plan: get rid of the mass transit systems and sell more cars. I don't approve, mind you, but at least there was a plan. Plus they weren't (presumably) laundering money -- they were syphoning it off.

They were probably Russian spies and those were just their secret identities while they infiltrated the CIA, but now they're done.

when it's a choice between a cockup and a conspiracy, it's always a cockup in my experience. That's what I think we're seeing here.

Is there any way of downloading the website? As an archive PF already has a ton of value to me.

Reply to Benkei you can download your own posts as threads. There's a command in there somewhere which still works.

It may have been aliens.

Reply to Wayfarer Thanks but I was thinking about the entire website. If google can cache stuff, there should be some way to download it completely right? Or at least, that's what I was thinking.

Oh, hadn't thought of that. Don't know!

Quoting ?????????????

http://www.httrack.com/

That! Thank you. I wonder how big PF is though... before I run out of diskspace. But at least this way, current PF will be saved for posterity. For the time being I don't believe much in the way of quality will be added and I'd rather have an archive before they completely pull the plug.

Speaking on behalf of all of those of us who left at the time of the initial PF takeover:

I told you so.

I so love these moments.

Reply to ????????????? I know that @Benkei won't download the Philosophy of Religion forum.

;) @ Benkei.

Quoting Michael

?????????????? I know that Benkei won't download the Philosophy of Religion forum.

Wrong. I WILL download it, only to have the satisfaction to then delete it! >:)

Reply to Benkei No, gotta strikethrough it all and add in corrective red text "I'm a moron".

What's going on? Why is Hanover stroking all our cocks?

Reply to discoii Excuse me for a second while I recover from the metaphor...

Anyway, as a cursory look through the thread should reveal, old PF seems to have been abandoned by Porat and co.

Reply to Baden Bunch of rich idiots. Nothing to see here. Anyone who calls them self an #Entrepreneur is probably an idiot.

Reply to discoii Huh. Using a # creates a search link. #Awesome.

Reply to Michael Yeah it's a tag search. I haven't tagged anything so far, but it could come in handy. For example, if you write something about site functionality and it's not in the usual category, you could tag it so you or others can search for tips on how to use the site. #tips

Edit: Seems to take 10 or so seconds to appear in the results.

Quoting jamalrob

Edit: Seems to take 10 or so seconds to appear in the results.

Worked pretty much automatically for me.

Quoting ?????????????

think that at a point Paul asked from some members to keep back ups of monthly (?) data and they were a few gb. But I might be mistaken.

You are correct in that jorndoe and I were making back ups every other week but my download time was too weak to support the back up and I am thinking jorn was able to get a few back ups but I am not sure to what degree and where they are now, if they do exist.

Reply to discoiiStroking cocks? At least accuse me of oral and not just a lowly hand shandy.

Reply to Hanover But I was enjoying it.

Reply to jamalrob Oh, I was just using it ironically, but cool, there is a tag functionality here. Better stop using it ironically.

I had been away from the PF for a month and when I returned yesterday, I found it to be in the final stages of rigor mortis! It had a sad lonely appearance of a forum in decline.

Quoting John Kernan

I had been away from the PF for a month and when I returned yesterday, I found it to be in the final stages of rigor mortis! It had a sad lonely appearance of a forum in decline.

Yes, the old PF seems to have been suffering from bugs and lack of maintenance lately. But the "PF" mentioned in the title of this thread is this forum rather than the old one. It is arguably doing better now than it was when the OP was posted.

Had basically a summer vacation from PF (and here) and it's very sad to see a dead site over there.

What I am really sad about is the math & logic forum. There were members that really helped me to understand mathematics better, but they weren't active anywhere else and aren't present here.

Has that other place officially died? Not that I wanted to go back there or anything, but I just went over to see how it was doing and it says I don't have permission to view any threads. Does it say this for everyone else?

Reply to aequilibrium Yep. It's proper broke.

It's well fucked guys. Tits up. IT'S A GONER!

If anyone has content they put a lot of work into on the old forum, what you can do to try and recover it for saving or for re-posting is to log into your account and visit the "options" page, which should give you a list of the threads you have started. You can hover over the title of the thread in order to get an excerpt from the beginning and use this and the title of the thread in a google search to find the direct google search result. At this point, you can click the little green down arrow at the end of the URL text and select "cached" version in order to actually view the first page of a thread.

Another method you can try is to use "the way back machine" and paste in the actual URL of individual threads and there's a chance that (if it is old enough) it will be saved there in perpetuity.

Basically it looks like the forum is in it's final death throes. No content from it is accessible directly from the website any longer. If you have any writing you want to save, now is the time to search for it. (google caches do not last forever)

Reply to VagabondSpectre That's what happens when the owners are incapable and stupid.

There is (if it's still working) a way to download all your posts as .txt. But the forum itself is definitely moribund now.

Let's buy it back on the cheap.

Reply to Hanover How much would you be willing to pay?

Things move on.

I was with the biggest Canal forum in the UK. Then it started to become overmoderated to the point they banned any discussion of politics or religion.

So someone started a new breakaway forum with minimal moderation

Darwin would be proud.

Hiya bassplayer, what kind of music do you like?

Quoting VagabondSpectre

If anyone has content they put a lot of work into on the old forum, what you can do to try and recover it for saving or for re-posting is to log into your account and visit the "options" page, which should give you a list of the threads you have started.

Quoting Wayfarer

There is (if it's still working) a way to download all your posts as .txt.

Nah. My almost twelve thousand posts can go down with the sinking ship for all I care.

I like Modbot's HAL 9000 reference in the Shoutbox. Seems apt.

It makes me sad. :-*

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

Math metal but I was brought up on Rachmaninoff, Procofiev and alike.

Love Djent. Shattered Skies, Hactivist at the moment.

Porat always struck me as being kind of like the Martin Shkreli of the internet.

Someone should erect a PF funerary/memorial/eulogy thread where we can say our piece, reminisce and rant about the good old days.

I think you're looking at it.

Reply to VagabondSpectre Or we could make these the good new days.

Actually the whole thing really pisses me off, I can't even think about it because it upsets me. Paul did so much work, spent so much time building and caring for the site, then this happens. Sure he got some money for it, but I think it's nothing compared to the work he put into it, and money just cannot cover having something you care about destroyed. Imagine working years to create a masterful work of art, having someone convince you that they really love, and want it, so you sell it, then they take it out in front of you and smash it with a sledge hammer. It's the worst insult, because not only are they destroying the thing you care so much for, but they're doing it right in front of you, in public, making a spectacle out of how they got you to let go of this thing so that they could destroy it.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

Sure he got some money for it...

He got like $20,000! If I recall correctly, Paul made comments along the lines that he cares more about his business than the forum, which he set up as a side-project using his software. And this alternative was quickly and easily set up, and it's better. Well, I prefer it anyway. If Paul wants to discuss philosophy on an online forum, he can come here, as can others. There was nothing particularly unique and beneficial to the old forum that has been lost, and hasn't been recreated here. He gets something in the region of $20,000, we get a better forum. Win-win. (Except for Porat. >:O)

Quoting Sapientia

He got like $20,000! If I recall correctly, Paul made comments along the lines that he cares more about his business than the forum, which he set up as a side-project using his software.

I think it's more that he cared more about feeding himself than the forum.

From a business perspective, neither Paul nor Porat ever made any sense, so I never thought of it as a business at all. To work decades for a $20,000 pay off makes no sense except as a desperate act when in need of a quick payout. Paying $20,000 for a site that was being hung together by donations of money and server space and then trying to pay people to run it also made no sense. Anyone could do the math and realize that the ads wouldn't cover the cost of labor or server space, much less lead to recovery of the initial investment. And, let's be honest, anyone who sees philosophy as a way to make money probably knows little about business or philosophy.

But to those disappointed with the whole episode and who expected a better outcome, I offer you a little hyperbole with this holocaust saying: The pessimists went to America, the optimists to the gas chamber.

Reply to Hanover
There is a time and a place for pessimism, and a time and a place for optimism. Then and there was that for pessimism; now and here that for optimism.

I would add as a time for pessimism any ménage à trois involving you, me and Banno.

What I don't get is why someone would pay $20k for a site and then just let it completely go down the tubes. There are a lot better/more fun ways to burn through $20k if you've got that much surplus money sitting around to waste.

Quoting Baden

I would add as a time for pessimism any ménage à trois involving you, me and Banno.

I anticipated sleeping. I'm not sure what you had in mind, although your interpretation is very telling.

Quoting Terrapin Station

What I don't get is why someone would pay $20k for a site and then just let it completely go down the tubes. There are a lot better/more fun ways to burn through $20k if you've got that much surplus money sitting around to waste.

There are some benefits to purchasing an investment that then later fails. If you make enough money in your overall investments, having an investment go belly up is a great way to reduce your taxable income.

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

Ah--that would make sense. That might explain why he paid the amount he did for the site, too., which seemed to be more than was expected. Maybe it was a calculated amount to contribute sufficiently to losses to enable a reduced tax burden.

Quoting bassplayer

Math metal but I was brought up on Rachmaninoff, Procofiev and alike.

Love Djent. Shattered Skies, Hactivist at the moment.

I don't play but boy do I sing! Especially in the shower! When the neighbors are away! :D But truly I am a blues baby. B.B. King, Buddy Guy, Etta James, Clapton, Hendrix ect.

"Alpine Valley, middle of the night, six strings down, on a Heaven bound flight..."

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff It sure worked out that way for
Trump.

Reply to aequilibrium
Most millionaires I have met have experienced their fair share of failures on their way to the success they enjoy today. It's not uncommon for millionaires to have made their first, lost a chunk of cash and are on their way back up to the Millionaire's Club.

This must be what it feels like to be that dwarf in Game of Thrones when going through that old city that looks like Angkor Wat.

Reply to discoii It pissed down with rain when I was at Angkor Wat. Thankfully it was at the end of the day and I'd already visited the other big temples around there.

Gamers are stupid.

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

Most millionaires I have met have experienced their fair share of failures on their way to the success they enjoy today.

Excellent! I've gotten my failures out of the way and now I'm primed for my millions.

Quoting Hanover

Gamers are stupid.

Oh shush, Gerald.

Quoting Hanover

Excellent! I've gotten my failures out of the way and now I'm primed for my millions.

Well if you weren't such a noob you could have made millions as well.

Reply to Michael I went in wet season and got sunburnt. Cycled it. Most of my pictures were of tourists.

Quoting Hanover

Excellent! I've gotten my failures out of the way and now I'm primed for my millions.

Woo Hoo! Nothing is going to break your stride now! 8-)

The problem with sharing a backup of PF is legal issues. If we share it, I wouldn't be surprised if the one thing the owners bother to do is sic lawyers on us. Also it's a couple gigabytes of SQL which isn't very easy to make use of except when presented in the format of a forum, which makes lawyers ever more likely.

You have a copyright to your own posts, so those aren't an issue... but anyone else's are.

It is really depressing to look over there.

[quote=Hanover]To work decades for a $20,000 pay off makes no sense except as a desperate act when in need of a quick payout.[/quote]

It wasn't work, it was fun, and I never expected it to have resale value. But when I realized it did, and that it could buy me 2 more years to try to figure out how to reinvent myself, and I hadn't been as actively into it lately anyway, and I had perhaps a month in which to get that deal done before running out of money... couldn't pass it up. Not that it was an easy decision or one that I don't regret sometimes considering the outcome.

[quote=Hanover] Anyone could do the math and realize that the ads wouldn't cover the cost of labor or server space, much less lead to recovery of the initial investment. [/quote]

It probably could've brought in at least $200 a month in ad revenue without being exceptionally obnoxious. And hosting costs might've been mitigated for a company that owns a bunch of forums and shares resources. But yeah there wouldn't be much left to pay for their time.

Quoting Paul

It probably could've brought in at least $200 a month in ad revenue

Wow--so only 100 months/just over 8 years to break even.

Quoting Paul

Not that it was an easy decision or one that I don't regret sometimes considering the outcome.

Don't regret too much. Old apple trees are best replaced by fresh stock, even if the varieties are excellent. TPF is a refreshed cutting of PF; the varieties are the same; you are freed of the burden. Pursue your reinvention, and good luck.

Someday TPF will be ready for a succession as well.

Change is the only constant.

Reply to Terrapin Station Well, it looks like they're trying to sell the domain for $50,000.

Haha--that's hilarious. Buy it for an already exorbitant amount, let it completely fall apart, then try to sell it a year later for a 60% profit margin.

Reply to Michael Offer them $100 for it. Otherwise some douche will come along and buy it... for maybe less than that.

Quoting Michael

Well, it looks like they're trying to sell the domain for $50,000.

What I find interesting about that page is the price of the other sites that are up for sale

Related Domains For Sale or At Auction
YogaPhilosophy.com ($2,288) DesignPhilosophy.com ($3,875) SpiritualPhilosophy.com ($4,888) PhilosophyResearch.com ($2,488) GermanPhilosophy.com ($799) ChristianPhilosophy.com ($4,888)

Bit of a difference no?

^ For empty domains that may never have had any content or search engine ranking, those are extreme rip-off prices too. thephilosophyforum.com is at least as good a domain name as any of those, and I suspect you guys didn't pay thousands for it.

I just awarded ModBot the poster of the month award for the shoutbox. She appears to be the most proliferate and productive member over there at the moment.
Sad, sad, sad. :’(

Quoting Sir2u

I just awarded ModBot the poster of the month award for the shoutbox. She appears to be the most proliferate and productive member over there at the moment.
Sad, sad, sad. :’(

I was wondering about that. Who's posting under ModBot? Paul?

Quoting Nagase

I was wondering about that. Who's posting under ModBot? Paul?

She is a Bot. She does her own thing without anyone having to help her. X-)

Maybe she's practising for the Turing Test.

Quoting Wayfarer

Maybe she's practising for the Turing Test.

She has a bigger chance of passing it than the owners of the site. 8-)

Geez--all these years, and I never realized ModBot was female.

I helped Paul fix ModBot during the PHP 5.5 upgrade. It is basically a program that scans posts for key words and phrases and sends out canned responses. That was apparently enough to convince a lot of people that she was human, ("she" because the avatar is feminine).

After fixing it, I quickly wrote up ChomskyBot, (hated by thousands), based on another ChomskyBot program and sent it to Paul. It ignores what you post and just strings together a bunch of phrases from his essays which is very frustrating to read because it seems like it should make sense, but rarely does.

Quoting Michael

Well, it looks like they're trying to sell the domain for $50,000.

50k for a website that just spins and spins trying to find itself!

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yes, but it's obscene when you get use that failure to avoid paying taxes for 20 years.

Quoting aequilibrium

Yes, but it's obscene when you get use that failure to avoid paying taxes for 20 years.

Why is it obscene to be given tax credit for a business you invested real dollars into that later failed? The dollars that Paul was paid for PF was not play money, it was real money. The purchaser had to earn/gather that investment money to pay Paul (to rob Peter ;) ) and it was clean money so the transaction was legal.
If the current owner of PF purchased 100 sites total at 20k each, he would have an initial investment of 2 million dollars, before a single ad is placed on any of the sites. If PF was successful in the transition and revenue from the ads rolled in, he might make a profit of 5k the first year. That would mean PF is operating in the red, as far as their investment is concerned and could very well be for the first 3 years of new ownership.
But if their profit off the other 99 sites bumps them ever so gently up against the next tax rate, a strategic loss could be/would be something to consider.

Quoting aequilibrium

Yes, but it's obscene when you get use that failure to avoid paying taxes for 20 years.

I agree with what Tiff said above. It's never to a business' advantage to gather losses, as if the tax write off associated with a $1 loss is more than $1. That is, if a business could choose a $1 profit and have to pay 40% of it in taxes, it would choose that instead of having a $1 loss and not having to pay taxes on it. Sure, under scenario 1, they'd pay $ 0.40 in taxes, and under scenario 2, they'd pay $0, but the net profit under #1 is $0.60, preferable to the $0 profit under #2.

It stands to reason that if your net income is negative, you'd owe no taxes. It also stands to reason that businesses don't start and stop every year on the tax due date, which means that if my losses in Year 1 are $1m, then I should be able to carry over the loss to Year 2. That means in Year 2, if I earn $500k, I'm still at a $500k loss over Years 1 and 2. I can keep carrying over the loss until it's gone. That's how it works. So, if Trump (for example) took massive losses in Year 1 and he's now very profitable in Year 10, it would make sense that he would have had a very low to no tax burden in Years 1-9.

Quoting Hanover

I agree with what Tiff said above. It's never to a business' advantage to gather losses, as if the tax write off associated with a $1 loss is more than $1. That is, if a business could choose a $1 profit and have to pay 40% of it in taxes, it would choose that instead of having a $1 loss and not having to pay taxes on it. Sure, under scenario 1, they'd pay $ 0.40 in taxes, and under scenario 2, they'd pay $0, but the net profit under #1 is $0.60, preferable to the $0 profit under #2.

It stands to reason that if your net income is negative, you'd owe no taxes. It also stands to reason that businesses don't start and stop every year on the tax due date, which means that if my losses in Year 1 are $1m, then I should be able to carry over the loss to Year 2. That means in Year 2, if I earn $500k, I'm still at a $500k loss over Years 1 and 2. I can keep carrying over the loss until it's gone. That's how it works. So, if Trump (for example) took massive losses in Year 1 and he's now very profitable in Year 10, it would make sense that he would have had a very low to no tax burden in Years 1-9.

And then we get to the tricky part: how to value intellectual property. Quite possibly the reason it's on sale for 50 kUSD instead of the 20 kUSD it was bought for, is to write off a loss of 50 kUSD (and probably a lot more in labour costs and other things) instead of the actual money spent. So with 20 kUSD, he probably "bought" a 100 kUSD write off. Depending on the taxation rate that could create an effecitve profit.

Reply to Benkei Bingo!
Now, why aren't you investing in the American economy? 8-)

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

Now, why aren't you investing in the American economy? 8-)

It's also interesting that goodwill and IP are activated on the balance sheet of large corporations. What happens with Apple's already dismally small amount of taxes when their goodwill evaporates? It's not going to be hip forever.

Different business balance sheets look very different from one another. A real estate investment corporation can have huge, non cash losses related to depreciations expense. Other companies, such as banks are highly leveraged compared to other businesses, because the majority of their assets are cash. Computer companies buy the good name, and intellectual property when they merge with other companies. Apple has, last time I read, about a billion dollars in cash available. It can purchase and purchase companies, and never have much of a tax bill.

The thing is that the tax code ought to be set up to direct business spending, so that if you don't want to pay taxes, you don't have to, but you must invest in other businesses or processes that benefit society. Apple went from employing around 10,000 people in 2002 to 47,000 today.

Big corporations are getting far too big. The proposed merger between AT&T and Times Warner would create a corporation with around $400bn in assets, which is monstrous. I think ultimately that such large corporations, bigger than many countries, are bad for society. M&As take the place of innovation and become a cyclic method of competition.

ModBot's shouts are human-operated by someone who won a bet with me many years back. I shall not reveal who, but it's not me.

By the way I've just started up a new site about possible future developments/events/technologies which might interest some of you. It updates daily, I've got the first 60 articles picked out already.

Reply to Paul Heh, I sign up and find out that the only other member (besides you) is also called Michael.

Interesting format, by the way. Kind of a cross between a forum and a blog.

Reply to Michael A frog?

Anyone check up on the old PF recently?

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover No, why?

Reply to Thorongil
I tried to access the site but my software prevented me from going there, citing malicious adware, or something like that.

Some eight months ago, darthbarracuda wrote:

"What something is is not simply a question of its material constitution but of its relationship to other things as well."

This has become my philosophical motto. It's hard to pack more wisdom about metaphysics into one short sentence.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

Anyone check up on the old PF recently?

Yes, just now. No change. Some poor fool actually purchased a sponsorship.

Reply to Sapientia
So it's still impossible to reply to anything? Why would anyone purchase a sponsorship?

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

So it's still impossible to reply to anything?

Yes, or even to view threads.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

Why would anyone purchase a sponsorship?

Well, in this case, they most likely didn't realise that the forum has been fucked for the past two years right up to the present.

Quoting Sapientia

Well, in this case, they most likely didn't realise that the forum has been fucked for the past two years right up to the present.

The old forum still has its use. It's a convenient place where not to post in case one is espousing an extreme form of Wittgensteinian quietism.

Quoting Pierre-Normand

Some eight months ago, darthbarracuda wrote:

"What something is is not simply a question of its material constitution but of its relationship to other things as well."

This has become my philosophical motto. It's hard to pack more wisdom about metaphysics into one short sentence.

Oh wow, it is very wise indeed (Y)

Reply to Sapientia Rumor on the street has it that Paul is desperately trying to fix it, even for free, but Eric Porat isn't replying to anyone, not just Paul. I guess he purposefully wants to use the website as a trash can.

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover
They don't know site isn't working. They think if they purchase sponsorship, they'll have access.

Maybe it's haunted, and Porat is afraid of spooky ghosts.

Well, in this case, they most likely didn't realise that the forum has been fucked for the past two years right up to the present.

If this is the case, why the hell are they even trying to go there when they don't know how to read.

The shoutbox tell everyone that the place is dead.

Quoting Agustino

Rumor on the street has it that Paul is desperately trying to fix it, even for free, but Eric Porat isn't replying to anyone, not just Paul. I guess he purposefully wants to use the website as a trash can.

What street are you talking about? Are you talking about rumor on the web? Which by the way, I have not heard of until I read this post and wonder where you heard this rumor.

It is not a trash can because those are emptied and filled, hence their purpose. I bet you $100 of Hanover's money that if you could research Eric Porat Or Richard Porat 's tax returns, you will see a business investment to the tune of $20k and the intended failure to convert it to a tax write off. That IS the only reason I can come up with why Eric Porat would not want to sell it back or abandon it all together.

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

What street are you talking about? Are you talking about rumor on the web? Which by the way, I have not heard of until I read this post and wonder where you heard this rumor.

I have my sources ;)

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

It is not a trash can because those are emptied and filled, hence their purpose. I bet you $100 of Hanover's money that if you could research Eric Porat Or Richard Porat 's tax returns, you will see a business investment to the tune of $20k and the intended failure to convert it to a tax write off. That IS the only reason I can come up with why Eric Porat would not want to sell it back or abandon it all together.

Probably.

Quoting Agustino

I have my sources ;)

We have ways of making you talk >:)

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff >:O Of course, that's why I'm telling you in the first place, hopefully, you'll use the carrot, not the stick...

Hmmm Is Paul a vegetarian?

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff
Yes, he only eats veggie burger.