creativesoul

I think the point is that none of these require talking in terms of qualia in order to be effectively and exhaustively explained.

The p-zombie aspect is a reductio. Seems some miss that point. If a p-zombie counts, then there's a problem with the criterion.

Yeah, I'm working on an ordinary language rendering of the (consciousness)process. Seems to me that the models, such as those being discussed(particul...

As if Trump's popularity cannot have anything to do with and/or be helped by foreign interference and/or disinformation campaigns?

I've no idea how you arrived at that summary. I'm not equipped to disentangle it.

No, I won't. We must use language. So, let me see if I have this right... Color, sound, and taste are - according to you - properties of private exper...

No. Which properties of your private experience are existentially independent from language use? Which ones exist in their entirety prior to your repo...

I agree with this. The proponents of qualia and quale are the ones who attempt to decouple, sever, and/or otherwise separate some aspects of conscious...

I asked you to strip the experience down of all that is public, external, and effable. Your report will come via language. That's not a problem. I'm a...

"It appears that I see color, feel pain, etc." is a self report. You're reporting to me about yourself, via common language use. Self reports are exis...

That's a self report.

Take that experience and strip it down by removing all public, external, and effable properties thereof... What's left?

I do not think that Dennett is denying that some thoughts are private, in the sense of being unspoken.

Dennett argues fairly convincingly(by my lights anyway) against the ineffability, intrinsicality, privacy, and direct apprehensibility of the properti...

Keep that in mind...

Yes, and yes.

We're talking about working class mostly rural American citizens, most of whom are products of public education in America over the last seventy years...

Far more nuanced than that Banno. Troublesome to say the least. The people believe Trump.

What a fucking shitshow.

Eerie silence... :mask:

I'm not entirely in agreement with Dennett, because I'm not a physicalist, and for good reason. However, he has successfully rendered the conventional...

I've no idea how you've arrived at that from what I wrote. On my view, an illusion is always of something else that is not an illusion. I wouldn't cal...

What are these things you called "sensations of color, sound, paint, etc."

What are red, green, blue visual experiences?

What are sensations of color?

This thread is a fine example of the way discussions and/or differences in viewpoints about a subject matter ought be performed. Kudos to the active p...

Good. I'm saying that if there is anything basic and fundamental about conscious experience it would be what it consisted of long before we began talk...

Are all ideas/notions/conceptions of conscious experience basic and fundamental?

I'd like to think that most everyone here would agree that conscious experience existed in it's entirety prior to our ever having coined the terms. An...

Thanks for that link. :smile:

I'm definitely inclined to a methodological naturalist approach. I've grown quite fond of framing things in terms of their elemental constituency. In ...

Thanks for that link. :smile:

Which presupposes that the material or physical 'world' is not a necessary elemental part of all meaning. That's a false presupposition.

That doesn't help. The notion of "what it's like to use sense organs" is fraught. There is no description adequate enough to exhaust all actual answer...

All the ways that humans use sense organs includes "really experiencing" using them. If philosophical zombies do not use sense organs to really experi...

:point: I'll leave you to that...

Philosophical Zombies... Describing differences that we cannot distinguish between.... :meh:

Not because such circumstances are actually possible, but rather simply because we can assert that they are.

Swap "recognizes" with "presupposes".

What I'm having trouble figuring out is why you place so much importance upon the notion of philosophical zombies, and Mary's Room, and(I suspect) wha...

Experience is not equivalent to first person perspective. The latter is a kind of the former; experience from a human's point of view. More pointedly,...

First person perspectives are self reports. All reports require language. First person perspectives require language. Rocks have none.

Given that minds consist entirely of thought and belief, and all knowledge consists of belief, I would think that anything directly relevant to knowle...

I suggest that our ability to talk about our own thought and belief as well as other people's is special enough. I've no idea what "metaphysically spe...

I would think that given what we already know about the evolutionary progression of life on earth, minds would slowly emerge. The manifestation of the...

Let's discuss either your position or mine. Attempting to cover both simultaneously is asking for trouble, especially when our respective positions us...

The problem with other minds is a problem born of gross misunderstanding of what minds are, what they consist of, and how they emerge. It's also based...

:lol: So, where does the problem arise with them? Or.. how?

Philosophical Zombies are no different than Santa Claus.

What if he comes out firmly for court balancing and points to the last five years as an example of what court packing looks like? :brow: