creativesoul

A correlation drawn between at least two things. Words are a part of the correlation. All attribution of meaning regarding words is drawing a correlat...

Yes, one can easily say almost anything.

What doesn't make sense? Our discussion has gotten off the OP. That is clear because we're no longer discussing it's relevance to the OP. However, it ...

What's 'this'? What doesn't make sense?

You're talking about belief regarding what's considered to be acceptable/unacceptable thought, belief, and/or behaviour. "Wrong" here isn't equivalent...

You're missing the point. We're talking about, and fleshing out the details for a criterion; what counts as thought and belief that is not existential...

The conversation has gotten of the OP. It still applies. None of us are applying it.

False analogy. You've offered purported examples of things that one can be aware of without being aware that it has thought or belief about those thin...

Take your time. I'll be much less wordy in what I offer between now and then. It seems we've reached a point that we can discuss where our differences...

That seems to be where(and/or what) the bulk of our disagreements rest(upon).

Yeah well... without access to the details of the experiment, I cannot know if it's good quality or not. Do you have access to the details? Do you agr...

There are two veins of thought here... One about the experiments, the other about what awareness takes... I want to continue, but keep them in separat...

Look javra I can more than appreciate that experience, and don't take the "soft science" comment personally, it wasn't about you. It was about the fac...

An awareness for the capacity to be right/wrong requires thinking about one's own thought and belief. Thinking about one's own thought and belief requ...

Do you not even grant these points?

There's a reason why psychology is called a 'soft' science, and an appeal to authority is rather unconvincing, particularly nowadays given the way sci...

It's just now getting to the important bits... Ah well, if you ever want to do some philosophy here on this topic, I'll gladly re-join. We've not even...

I've yet to see you present an argument for this capacity to be innate. You asserted it multiple times. That is to presuppose precisely what needs arg...

I would need to see the actual studies and experiments that these conclusions were based upon in order to offer a more informed opinion of the reliabi...

Trust is most certainly being built during the formative years of initial language acquisition. Contentment and familiarity with one's caregivers. Tha...

Thought and belief are indistinguishable at this level. The only difference between the two happens on a metacognitive level. Non linguistic creatures...

How does one trust something that it has never thought about? Your framework admits of this, doesn't it? Trust requires a remarkable 'sense' of famili...

This seems to be the basis for the belief that approach. It certainly lends support to the method, regardless of whether it is intentional or accident...

Well, I've already set out my position on this... all belief is existentially dependent upon and consists of correlations. Correlation presupposes the...

I just thought about this another way... If offering an accurate account of nonlinguistic belief by means of art, music, poetry, and/or metaphor quali...

Music, poetry, and metaphor are definitely language. Saying otherwise is just plain asinine. Art is a social construct that is existentially dependent...

Make the argument, we'll discuss it further. Otherwise... hand-waving and gratuitous assertions won't do here.

A complete aside... But if this minimalist notion of thought and belief sets out what is the case prior to our setting it out, then the rightful appli...

A furthered honing for the criterion could and ought be had by virtue of setting out the things between which the creature makes the connections... Ad...

An amoeba... Mmmmm.... Have not gained enough confidence to clearly draw a line in the sand. However... It does not seem to have the physiological mak...

We agree regarding the gradation aspect. That is particularly amenable for me with regard to initial thought formation and it's successive continuatio...

To me, that's contradictory on it's face, therefore unacceptable. Choosing between competing alternatives is existentially dependent upon knowing of t...

All good. Differences are certainly between our views. However, I'm not interested in fleshing those out unless they matter directly to the topic at h...

Come on javra. Those points miss the point entirely. Non linguistic here means thought and belief that exists in it's entirety prior to language. It d...

Nah. I'm talking about what a language less creature is capable of. With regard to a language less creature's thought and belief, they are rudimentary...

No such thing as essential meaning.

The best one yet! I've been wanting and waiting for this one for a while.

Much to agree with here... There is plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that, while in utero, humans are drawing correlations between auditor...

Conceptual analysis led to knowledge of black holes. Black holes are pre-conceptual. Conceptual analysis led to knowledge of all sorts of mental ongoi...

We differ remarkably regarding what an awareness of being wrong/right requires. Premiss 2 presupposes that the creature experiencing uncertainty under...

I appreciate the offer, and you're more than welcome to end this discussion if you so choose. For me though, you're one of very few people that I've d...

That is to conflate what our knowledge of pre-conceptual entities requires with what the existence of those entities requires.

Not trivial at all. Quite remarkable actually given this... Now, to be clear, I certainly agree that we can mistakenly project the entities of complex...

I know that trees existed prior to our conceptualizations of them. My knowledge of that requires language. The trees did not. The same holds good of n...

How do we determine which parts/entities of our analysis are pre-reflective(what parts/entities could be prelinguistic and/or happen pre-reflectively)...

I'm asking that because it is the crux of the issue, as is shown here... The question is you ask here is irrelevant. Our knowledge of non linguistic t...

Yes.

Pavlov's dog and it's correlations/associations between the bell and the expectation of being fed? Are you claiming that none of these things existed ...

Synapsis?

Yes. Let's not conflate that which is prior to language with that which is not though. If we set out trust in a minimalist fashion, in order to trust ...