Luke

Nope. Direct realism is the view that we perceive real objects. We do have "a visual" or a perceptual experience of real objects. Representations are ...

There is direct perception for humans. We have it already. The kind of direct perception you seem to envisage involving no representation or process o...

I don't follow how the "several way-points" of the process of perception prevent our perceptual experiences from "being of the real-world object." Wha...

If perceptual experience entails awareness of the perceptual experience, then awareness of an object (via perceptual experience) must equally entail a...

We appear to agree that a perceptual experience is a representation. We also seem to agree that we have perceptual experiences of; representations of;...

If "perceptual experience is awareness", and if there is no possibility that the awareness is of a representation (since none of the links mention thi...

Said where? Could you elaborate or clarify this? I can't make much sense of it. Where did I say that our perceptions are of representations?

I have been using the terms "perception" and "perceptual experience" interchangeably because in deciding whether we perceive real objects or only repr...

I invite you to go back and read all of my posts. I have maintained from very early on, if not since my first post, that our perceptions include repre...

I believe that a perception is equivalent to a perceptual experience. My brain and nerves are not what I have perceptual experiences of, so I would no...

Aren't these in direct contact with our senses and nervous systems as equally as the objects that we touch or taste? I don't know whether it is possib...

I agree. However, the typical contrast for the indirect realist seems to be that a perception is, instead, directly of a representation. You seem to b...

Your position seems to be that a perceptual experience is a representation, and that the perceptual experience or representation is directly of worldl...

Sure, and perceptual experience might also include, and/or be affected by, expectation, environmental conditions, and other stuff too. I'm no expert, ...

We may be unaware of what happens behind the scenes to produce our perceptual experience of the smell, but (presumably, in the scenario you describe) ...

Perception need not entail recognition or identification of objects. We can have a perceptual experience of an object (e.g. for the first time) and be...

That's strange, because the first line of one of the articles that you posted (here) in support of your definition of perception states that: "Percept...

:up:

Is the experience (G) different to the perception? Some might say that perception refers to our sensory experience of the world.

If perception is the entire process “of getting from an object to an experience”, then in what sense is that entire process indirect?

I disagree that the word “perception” typically refers to a process (or to the unconscious workings of the brain/body) that results in… a perception. ...

I think we more commonly speak about perceiving the object that is the source of a smell or sound or (reflected) light, rather than perceiving the pro...

You say you don’t perceive the causal chain. The odour molecules are a part of that unperceived causal chain. According to indirect realism, the inter...

I'm not arguing for an intermediary; indirect realists are. My point here was about where the intermediary lies: between the perception and its percei...

If those images are your perceptions, then your sentence means "I perceive perceptions". If those images are your perceptions, then those images aren'...

You don't directly perceive images formed by your brain. Those images are your perceptions. What makes them "indirect representations of distal object...

Did you read all of this article? It argues in favour of direct realism. For example, the first sentence of the Reprise states: The article also prese...

The relevant issue is about perceptions of objects, not awareness of sensations. The directness or indirectness of awareness is irrelevant. Is the cau...

The relevant issue is whether perceptions of objects is direct or indirect, not whether awareness of perceptions/sensations is direct or indirect. Bec...

The relevant issue is whether perceptions are direct or indirect, not whether awareness is direct or indirect. What is indirect awareness? The smell o...

If the causal chain of odour molecules, olfactory system, etc. is equivalent to the perception of smelling cake, then what’s the intermediary? The cau...

I disagree we are saying the same thing. I don't think you read this properly: You're saying we smell the odour molecules, an intermediary, which is a...

I don't believe so. I directly smell the cake. I do not smell an intermediary.

The causal chain of odour molecules entering the nose, interacting with the olfactory system, converting to brain signals, etc. can explain its effect...

Are the pixels the perception or the cause of the perception? In your previous example you said that the odour molecules were the cause of the smell. ...

I wasn't referring to a question of yours, but to the question of the discussion: direct realism vs indirect realism. Obviously I think there is a dif...

Again, it’s a question of whether our perceptions of objects are direct or indirect. The perception is the smell, not the data which produce it. You d...

The experience is the perception is the smelling.

If Jodie had told you herself, instead of hearing it from Bob, or if you went to the baseball game and saw it live, instead of watching it on TV, then...

Are you unable to touch objects? Seriously, though, it is a question of whether our perceptions of objects are direct or not. I don’t know what kind o...

To put it bluntly: The perception is: the smell (of cake). The causes of the perception are: the odour molecules in the air stimulating the sense rece...

Why must indirect realists only be negatively arguing against a particular meaning of "direct", instead of positively arguing for a particular positio...

This strikes me as a no true scotsman. You asked for a non-naive version of direct realism. Intentionalism is a non-naive version. According to the SE...

You don't perceive your perceptual experience. Your perceptual experience is a perception. What inference(s) are you making? Are you inferring that yo...

Forgive me for not following the argument along traditional lines. I would probably tend to agree that primary and secondary qualities are of the same...

What part don't you understand? You said earlier that: It follows that your criterion for a direct perception is to have the distal object somehow be ...

Compared to what other sort of perception? It's as direct as you can get. No problem. Assuming you mean experience of the world, or perceptual experie...

Yes, I said that, As you quoted me as saying: That's my point. @"Michael" was asserting that a direct perception must be when a perception is identica...

Is there anything left to say on this forum that you haven't already said Banno? :razz: