Banno

VI This is a bridging lecture. Up until now Austin has been addressing the argument from illusion. After this lecture Austin moves on to discussing "r...

My words will be echoing around the hollows of your soul; you'll remember, if only as a vague regret. You didn't put that puss on home-cooked corn bee...

Eventually, should you live long enough, it will be.

The post indeed required a bit of investigating and thought on the part of the reader. It apparently wasn't for you. And yes, it is easier to be criti...

No. https://youtu.be/VGtYBTdICEY

That's the natural state of those with our inclinations.

The study on collapse they thought you should not read – yet This doesn't deserve a full thread, the notion that the self-censoring of a community of ...

I've comments to make about VI, but have been doing other things. Apropos of that, what you say here about prejudicial engagement is one of Austin's c...

Yes, I agree that this is his account - forgive my previous poor phrasing. There is, as you point out, also REM and other evidence that show a great d...

Yes, Ayer wants to use it as a basis for certainty on questions empirical, and it simply will not bear that weight. Thanks for bringing in some more b...

That's very good - bringing in a deeper discussion of the nature of dreaming. I have not read Malcolm's book, but have heard of it. From what I unders...

It now seems to me that you have not understood what Austin is doing. I suggest a re-read.

I wonder how much the incapacity to deal with an extended and detailed sequence of arguments is a result of learning philosophy from YouTube. Yep. The...

Ok. That's a mess. Doubt that it would be worth trying to sort it out. Thanks.

Formal logic depends on duration? How?

So pushy. :wink: I'll get to it, soon.

There's too much going on in all that for a brief treatment. But perhaps we ought be suspicious of distinctions that are seen only by philosophers.

I don't think the bit I bolded is right. Indeed, Austin is at pains to make the point that our perceptions are sometimes direct, sometimes indirect, a...

I'm not onboard with the James quote, for two reasons. First, what counts as a simple is down to context, and here I'm thinking of the later Wittgenst...

Good post. While what you say here is quite valid, our practices override such considerations. Folk might quite successfully agree to "meet at the bar...

OK.

I guess that's right. @"Isaac" and I had some lengthy chats about what "representation" consists in, in a neural network. What we did agree on is that...

V continued The argument from illusion has two parts. In the first, already addressed, it is argued that in certain abnormal situations we must admit ...

:up:

I had thought you had seen what Austin shows: that "direct" gets its use from "indirect". It seems that needs reinforcing. If asked how does smelling ...

Yes, and then there is the broader methodological point that this failing leads to broad philosophical theories - such as Ayer's logical positivism - ...

Yeah, I think there is something in this, especially the idea of philosophical problems being "manufactured" by philosophers. Cynically, they have to ...

Yes, in which case, as I said, we are mistaken. What we see is a church, made to look like a barn. Do you see something deeper here, that I'm missing?

Cool. In each example you give, you are able to set to clearly the indirect case that allows us to make sense of the direct case.

Sure. IS there a presumption that there is only one correct answer here? Those in on the joke see a church. The duped see a barn. The explanation is t...

That depends on whether one is aware that it has been camouflaged, of course. I'm not seeing(!) a point here, either in favour or against the argument...

"I see a barn" is not wrong. One might usefully say we will meet at the barn, and be understood by those who know it to be a church. Isn't the point t...

Yes, but going on past experience on the fora, it won't happen. :wink:

These are not easy issues to work through. One thing that might help is remembering that sight is not the only sense, and that an account of how we pe...

Should, or even could, we bring out every nuance of this story? What is the building over there? It is a church. It has been made to look like a barn....

That's right. Austin was a classicist. He was drawn into philosophy by puzzlement at the things philosophers said. He brought his method over from Cla...

I hearty agree! While we are at it, let's also throw out that other bugaboo (should that be buggerboo?) subjective/objective, the notion of things hav...

V Roughly, Ayer's argument is that When we see something, there is always a thing that we see. There are instances where what we see is a different th...

Well, sometimes what we see is what there is... I'm not seeing a difficulty for Austin, here - is there one? I had rather taken him as showing that se...

Sensory data, sure. Our senses provide data. But "sense data" seems a term peculiar to philosophy, with the mentioned peculiarities.

I gather we are in broad agreement, then. I've looked for uses of "sense data" outside of philosophical contexts, but found precious little. I checked...

...yes... ok... Or was it a cunning plan to trick you into revealing your scheme for our little world? You'll never know.

And it will come to the fore with Lecture V. There will be folk who are so enamoured with the delusion of sense data that they will reject the argumen...

Presumably they see the cup - a less racist alternative to the old myth that they could not see anything at all. We might find that despite seeing the...

Prima facie, Lecture IV required the most effort for the least gain. But 's question shows some of where these ideas might be taken, more so by Wittge...

Yes! I appreciate the facetious style - this is what such silly alternatives deserve. Yep. It would have been novel for Austin, too. Thank you for sav...

I don't wish to dissuade you, indeed there is no alternative, as you must begin where your thoughts are now. The material we are considering takes som...

So do I - but only two of those have any content. Perhaps it should be "Draught"?

https://thephilosophyforum.com/drafts Hmm.

IV A slightly shorter, but intense, lecture breaking apart various uses of "Look", "Appear" and "Seem". talks about the complexity of the issue, which...