Frank Apisa

Let me answer that last part first: The MAJOR value of agnosticism... ...is truth....the unvarnished truth. We do not know if any gods exist or not. Y...

Agreed. Aside: I was "religious" for a time in my life. Raised Catholic. I went to public school...so I was not an altar boy as so many of my friends,...

That IS NOT the only way, Devans. That is the way YOU want to be "the only way"...so that you can reach the logical extension on it. But in order for ...

I think that we DO take that attitude...except for those of us who come up with an hypothesis and pretty much demand that it be correct. For instance....

Not willing to make a guess on it, Devans. Too many imponderables. If I made a peripheral guess...it would be: "Perhaps human abilities to solve probl...

Devans, the moment you say there is a "first cause"...you are saying "Not everything has a cause." That is inescapable...and is at the heart of the fl...

A "belief" is just a guess about an unknown. A "belief" cannot be "proven true"...because the moment it is proven...it stops being a "belief" (or gues...

Okay...and that can be, Devans. BUT...I do not see the question at all...just the question mark. Sometimes that works...as in, "Right?" Here it does n...

One...if you suggest there IS a "first cause"...that means that there does not have to be a first cause. Either something CAN exist without a first ca...

I see the question mark. Having trouble seeing the question, though.

I responded to your question. I did it as courteously as possible. And in return, I get a lot of shit in return. I am not here for any grief from you....

Okay. Careful of the door.

Thank you. Unfortunately, for many "I do not know" is something that can never be said or acknowledged. Good quote from Feynman...a complicated man, b...

The "waffle" is all yours, Devans. You have decided to build a case that YOUR GOD exists...and have pretended to be arguing something else. Your argum...

I DO NOT KNOW IF GODS EXIST OR NOT. Those are the first words of my position on the issue. I have no idea of what you are talking about, Maureen. HERE...

I was completely clear...you missed it. Now...you are unable to acknowledge you did. So be it. Much of your contribution here helps understand what Ma...

That is absolute bullshit. Here is what I actually said: NOW...how the hell do you get to any ambiguity considering the entire of that commentary? YOU...

That does not necessarily follow. I am not saying it is wrong...but you assert it as a conclusion. Let's hear the P1 and P2 that gets you to: Therefor...

Disagree. Obviously I do not know if any gods exist or not. I prefer not to guess one way or the other. I see no reason to suppose the existence of a ...

You've hit the nail on the head with the "desired conclusion"...which has been the fly in the ointment from the very beginning. Way back, I (and other...

Screw the "belief" stuff. If a person is going to make an assertion about whether gods exist or not...the person should have the spine to acknowledge ...

You are assuming a start. Sorta like someone saying, "How can there be a creation without a creator?" The moment you postulate a "first cause"...you e...

Of course a thing can be truthful AND ambiguous. But the statement "I do not believe any gods exist" IS NOT AMBIGUOUS. There ARE people who do "believ...

My opinion is that if a person wants to end his/her life...he/she should be able to do so without the mess that accompanies putting a gun into one's m...

One last thing, Christian... ...and this is "off-topic" also... ...you sound like a sock puppet for Devans. Are you?

I certainly am not being a troll. The conversation is a continuation of several conversations occurring simultaneously. Allusions were made...I respon...

I absolutely, positively DO NOT KNOW if any gods exist. I have said that many times already. Here is my position with regard to gods (of any sort): I ...

You've gotten all the counter arguments you need from people MUCH more intelligent than I. And you have simply dismissed them out-of-hand. My comment ...

The crux of your over-all argument has been logically rebutted by several people...and YOU DO simply dismiss them. You may not be able to see that...b...

Apparently you are not able to acknowledge that saying "I do not believe "X"...IS NOT the same as saying "I believe not-X." That is your problem. You ...

No, Devans...you cannot. Neither could Einstein, Hawking, Sagan, Feynman...or the many, many others who pondered this problem. Your ego THINKS you can...

People have posted them time after time. You simply dismiss them. Obviously from the Book of Devans. BUT you never cite the chapter and verse. Once yo...

Okay. But you are stone-headed...and that is much worse. My suggestion is for you to shove YOUR suggestion to where the sun never shines. God? That go...

Several of us have pointed out the flaws. At my age...best not to. Yes you do. Your "first cause" for example. You honestly do not see it...do you? If...

Since you are not talking about "a god"...but rather about "God"...and referring to it as "he"...I will make the assumption I made, because it almost ...

I agree with you. My agreement was the point of what I said.

If I say I do not have a belief that any gods exist...THAT IS NOT AMBIGUOUS. If I say I do not have a belief that no gods exist...THAT IS NOT AMBIGUOU...

Okay. And there are some people who just never want to acknowledge not knowing something...especially in the "god" continuum. From this point forward,...

I did NOT express a "belief." I mentioned that I do not hold certain "beliefs." I was not TRYING to say something...I WAS saying something. You, erron...

And if one class IS empty...that would be a fact rather than an opinion. It really resolves into a "This statement is false" kind of thing.

Your argument that "there must be a first cause" is terribly flawed...which was pointed out by many who considered it. I was one of those who found it...

I am not sure that is "returning" to the OP...but... ...IF we define agnostic as "not knowing if at least one god exists or not"...then everyone is an...

I did NOT mention anything that I "believe." I mentioned some things that I do NOT "believe." Read my comment again...and you will see that.

Thank you, S. That is something that escapes most people. Nice to see that you got it.

There were NO "beliefs" held there, Foolso. I spoke of what I held no beliefs about. There are people who "believe" gods exist. I am not one of them. ...

I disagree with lots of what you said here, but I am going to attack our disagreement in a different way. I am going to agree with something you said;...

Yup. What I write next is tangential, but related. The wording of comments in a philosophy forum should be rather exact. Here is a thing I have raised...

I didn't. Go back...quote what I said to which you are taking exception...and let's discuss that rather than what you are saying I said.

Question: You been smoking powerful shit?

I didn't. It isn't. So...what is this all about? Are you stalling for some reason?