khaled

Hard to sell. No taxes, no laws, no jails, etc. Also can be taken to many unpleasant extremes. Say I want to donate to charity. But there is someone i...

You only have to pick the best outcome if you are the one causing the harm directly. The line is blurry. And the group isn’t any more “abstract” as th...

Well they are scribbles on a screen regardless but where did beliefs go? Knowledge or nonsense? Doesn't sound right.

Yes. Not one I’ve given much thought to either way though.

sure. Which was the counter argument that got me.

The argument would be that no odds are good enough when a harmless alternative is available. Which is an argument I agree with. For example: Even if 9...

:up:

Why can it not just coincide with the material? When you have brainstate X you also simultaneously experience fear or joy or what have you. I would sa...

What constitutes “material”? What not just “the world”? I’ve always found “material” in “material world” to be at best obsolete and at worst misleadin...

No it isn't. Nothing is destroyed here. The child never experienced the beauty of life for taking it away to be in any way destructive, heck nothing i...

Ok. Even though I don't even argue for the side anymore this is still BS to use as any meaningful critique. Is genetically engineering someone to be b...

Which is why it is followed by a (supposedly) But hey, ANY justification is better than "Oh we'll do it and if they don't like it they can just kill t...

The problem is you CAN'T reject the gift. Phrasing suicide as "rejecting the gift of life" is disgusting. It's a bit more than that. Rejecting implies...

And the reason I don't buy it is what Isaac basically just said.

The point is that we certainly do know how not having a child will affect others. Almost certainly negatively to some degree. The point is not that ha...

The argument would be that it is not ethical to force someone into such a position. Like forcing someone to play a game. Just because most people like...

Antinatalists like their life or hope it will get better. Ok. Now what?

It's not that it's just the change of tone that's funny. All good man. Still:

Lol. You think that is angry and combative? You were the nicest guy I disagreed with in a while on this site. I find that it's a trend that the more p...

How would you respond to this? The claim is that, by not having children, you are harming those they could have helped. And I don't really find "You c...

I wasn't always AN. I moved to AN from the standard view and haven't really had a reason to move back. But hey, good to know that I'm not an intellect...

I actually see the inconsistency now. Will get back to you later. This might just do it.

Well who cares, as long as you both agree with X, whether or not X is actually the case. For the purposes of discussion, it is. And you can get plenty...

How is it inconsistent? With surgery: NOT doing the surgery is the more harmful option. With laws: NOT having the laws is the more harmful option. Wit...

This again? We already went over this. I'm saying it's surely better not to do something that you know is way more likely to cause more harm than its ...

And that's the one I used here. What are you on about? I am saying that EVEN IF the child is likely to have a net harm reduction effect, that does not...

This is gonna be my last reply for now. Don't have any more time for you. Non-sequitur. You make it sound like the only factor at play in people's hap...

You threw your hands up first with "I'm not just going to do this everytime" If you want to do this: State your system. Clearly. All the factors. Just...

When have I said otherwise? Did you actually read my reply to pinrick? Because we can't be sure of the overall picture of the child's impact on others...

Huh? "Breaking" is when your supposed maxim, caveats and all, results in something you find ridiculous. For example "Do not deny pleasure" results in ...

Check my reply to pinrick for this. It’s mathematical. Assuming you don’t assume your child will cure cancer or do any such amazing feat. Which is jus...

“It’s fine to hurt them cuz if they don’t like it they can just kill themselves” Do I need to say more? What does this NOT justify?

If you knew the person whose life you save will end up a serial killer, then yes it's absolutely your responsibility. I already told you how I deal wi...

This. He has yet to give an example where “maximizing freedom” trumps not causing harm either. Which makes me doubt if he actually believes this or is...

What I do is: I treat it as an objective fact that there is a chance my child will subjectively judge a majority of his life to be bad. Because that i...

You weren’t using this highly limiting definition for the word “harm”. Do you want to argue that having B does not cause harm? Because I think we agre...

False. We are finding that in one option B will have negative feelings. In the other he won’t. So we pick the one where he won’t. We are not saying th...

It is both. Still, better to prevent harm than not to. In absence of a justification to do otherwise. What’s difficult about this. The "conditions tha...

Call it what you will. In my book that's called "breaking". Because until caveats are introduced your system is insufficient. Nothing weird about it. ...

And when I say "My child will suffer" I am saying "My child will do this comparison you are speaking of and wish for a different state of affairs". Th...

Huh? In order to say “My child will suffer” I have to compare two different “versions” of him? No.

Use the reply function please so I get notifications You'd be surprised. For the record I'm not referring to my own parents I had a normal childhood. ...

The comparison is between: Harm done when doing the act vs Harm done by not doing the act. Not between existent and non-existent Timmy whatever that i...

Until the difference is stated explicitly they are. Because it is the topic of debate.... False. That they can all be phrased as avoiding greater harm...

Sure. And I don't intend to defend that line further. Because it's not really the argument I use. I stated which one I use. Or maybe I don't find the ...

Who's adding caveats now? I didn't mention conception. I was just saying that setting a low bar when it comes to "how likely it is that our acts will ...

Really? I would say we set the bar pretty low when dealing with others. We certainly don't need "near certainty" that our actions will cause more harm...

I think I defined all three pretty precisely. Cause: Would it have happened if you weren't there. Suffering: Something you don't want done to you. Unn...

Echarimon is as far as I can tell. I haven't mentioned consent in like 12 pages because of nitpicking like this. I'll ask you the same question I aske...

Depends on the person. But I don't think anyone here finds reasonable or convincing. So not just any difference can be used. Doesn't matter what I cal...