schopenhauer1

Yep and I advocate not starting the problems in the first place- even the problem ofovercoming the problem through some self-help mentality change. In...

I say why make people go through the economic "realities" in the first place?

Yep. Nature..hmm, funny you mention look for things that are not "watered down for mass production and consumption". Much of nature has been just that...

It is when it is abusive power types that care more about delegation and power than development and growth. I don't see why that person would be hated...

Yep, and what would managers manage then? If everyone could start their own business and make it, they would. I don't buy into either the idea that it...

This topic is close to another one here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2389/is-the-workplace-primarily-a-place-for-self-fulfillment-or-a-h...

You can give any answer you want. Usually people just want to be in and out of the store. If you are truly interested in the clerk's day, ask. If the ...

With what justification?

The human predicament is one where you are thrown into a life where you are enculturated into a society, inherit genes, encounter epigenetic changes, ...

I guess one of my major points is that, what if you want to just pause the whole structural process of surviving and whatnot. You cannot do this witho...

But one can argue, our current society is doing this. "Facilitate as much variation as possible as much creativity and change while maintaining itself...

All our preferences to be "free" are ones that we gathered in our setting- the hall of mirrors. All our longings and goals are ones that are provided ...

Really good response- you laid out the reasoning succinctly. Nothing is isolated from its social context being that we are raised in and enculturated ...

Ah, ostracism by omission. Got it.

Was that responding to my post? I never mentioned authentic consciousness. Are you saying the antinatalist stance presupposes some authentic conscienc...

You realize the ultimate move against the incentive structures as a system is for individuals to choose antinatalism. Of course, the goal is not to ma...

You Kant, handle the truth!! Ok carry on..

This is sadly many office space work environments. You put personality types of various stripes into the same office from various backgrounds, all wit...

Great point. (Y)

Bitter, you didn't respond to the question about the difference between the two statements- one where the boss is swearing in general about circumstan...

I sympathize with your views, as a lot of it is context. A manager can say, "This fuckin report is so full of errors, what a bitch this is!". Or he ca...

That's fine that they didn't have a problem with it, but let's say the banter continues, and a third person enters this atmosphere. Instead of taking ...

Yep. The problem here is even worse. 1) It's not just aesthetic when you're close up, it's all too real. 2) It's not just aesthetic when you're far aw...

I am not sure that people necessarily have the same basic everyday principles. What's funny, is it is the day-to-day interactions that are least thoug...

There is no real alternative, that is correct. There is an action to take (or not take rather). Don't procreate more people into the world. It's not a...

If the economy is a sticky gum that surrounds and traps one's whole life affairs, and that cannot be escaped, there is no need to put more people into...

It's too late once you throw another person into the world. No one needed to go through the gauntlet of being an economic util.

It is what it is, but you don't have to put anyone else in it. There's nothing undue about the stance.

That is the pragmatist stance actually. What is good = what is useful (very roughly speaking). That's not quite where I was going though related. You ...

Again, how do you know the whole "interpretation makes the facts" isn't just well-worn slogans to not make you do anything to prevent the situation fo...

That's always what we're doing though. We constantly adjust ideal conditions to shittier ones and plaster this over with being a "realist". Don't be f...

Even idealists have to eat.

There is no escaping it though. All people rely on the economy- even if for a secondhand DIY economy. Just like the communes and such, all rides on to...

Yeah, well, the broader understanding to take from this is we are never born into our ideal preferences. The economy is particularly pernicious as it ...

Exactly. Hence antinatalism. There is no alternative. Why throw more people into it?

So you are not subject to the needs of the economy?

I am not saying that having a different economic system will change things. I am simply explaining how, once born, we are exposed to the de facto econ...

You may think that, but if you try to sustain that in economic terms, you will be homeless or a hermit outlier. Otherwise, you will be used for your e...

Yes, all the other trees were used. We are like the other trees- our labor is useful, our money is useful, our consumer decisions are useful, our 401k...

Procreating and helping is pretty vague, but it's a pretty big generalization that "procreating and helping comes naturally". Innate? Culture? Both? B...

I agree, but as is my theme with pessimism, why do we perpetuate any instrumental reason by putting more individuals in the world? In other words, why...

This is true, hence my call for antinatalism. Why would I want to create another util to have to work for and be used by, and create more work for oth...

But the antinatalism conclusion follows so axiomatically from the premise :D. Do you think that a worker's "utopia" would really solve the problems or...

Well, what I was trying to say is that it is no good being ignorantly happy to the detriment of not understanding something that is happening to you n...

(Y) The problem is when you are in conflict with someone over principles. To your mind (and perhaps to many others who share your point of view), a mo...

Happy could just as well be complacent. Essentially everything from life itself, to aspects of the economic system ensure that you are locked into som...

But that's what I said in a different way.. getting caught in the flow. It's what we must do to not experience the world-weariness. Okay. Okay. Unjust...

Granted, but the pessimistic argument relies on seeing some non-trivial truths. As I've stated: 1) We agree that life is forced- it was not a choice. ...

Yep. I like how you describe the notion many people may have that life is the creative process and progeny being the object of art. But they will say ...

Well, music, lyrics, and poetry, do seem to get to the essence of things. Right, the pragamtist/post-modern stance. All is fictions upon fictions. Tru...