schopenhauer1

I think we are actually somewhat near the same page on this. There is an aspect of being used in procreation. People are born for an X reason (that is...

Once born, the principle of forcing the end of others to prevent suffering, does not hold up for reasons @"darthbarracuda" was getting at. That is to ...

Good points. Your implication is that prior to birth, negative ethics always takes precedence. That is create no harm, force no harm. However, I would...

You'd have to really explain that one. Sure, society feeds into individuals that feeds into society. At the end of the day, the one to pull the trigge...

As long as you think that someone who could have suffered does not suffer is a good thing, it would indeed be ethical. The absolute is that it is good...

Nah, I couple the prevent harm principle almost always with non-aggression principle. You should not force anyone into your perspective. In fact that ...

So discourse on ethical principles to me is like discourse on politics. In politics, there are people with very inbuilt beliefs that are hard to dislo...

If we both agree that more refined suffering exists at higher levels (along with the "fulfillment"), why would the fulfillment matter in the face of a...

I'm saying why should this trade off be considered justifiable on behalf of someone else? What makes the trade off more important than the original st...

I agree it is all about agreeing about first principles. I will keep trying to convince on this front. At the very least, by NOT having children, my f...

I see a lot of assumptions that suffering is only about third world problems. I see it much deeper than that. You yourself were trying to explain how ...

If it means physically bringing another human into existence, it would violate non-aggression principle (don't force things for any reason, including ...

But in the realm of procreation, we certainly are making those decisions for others and then letting them "decide" with suicide :chin: . That is suspe...

Being a thoroughgoing philosophical pessimist, I will say that it is all of the things you mentioned. There is a structural suffering behind human exp...

It would be essentially a tautology. That it is an obvious preference for many is recognized. Why is it preferred though? To what end are we getting o...

Right, suffering is more than bare necessities. It encompasses any negative feeling. Undue suffering is surely its own category but need not be the on...

That is precisely what I'm asking everyone. I don't know, tell me how it is. That's what I'm wondering. A person only has to label it such and explain...

Humans. Ethical first principles. One where you would justify prevention of harm being less important than X positive ethic.

Why does live=good? Why does the principle of preventing harm when you are able (even by simply refraining from procreation, as birth is the source of...

I think this is a bit of a poor excuse. Imagine using this as a defense against any other aggression. Also, I just don't buy into "all action is deter...

Sure.. A life was produced where there was none. Right, but not to someone else. Unless you forcefully broke into someone's abode and started painting...

All I have is the information I have now. As far as we know, there is nothing more than what we know through our experiences and senses. My point was ...

Then they have different first principles regarding property. However, I bet you certain aspects of non-aggression are followed in that culture, and I...

I didn't say "forcing a baby against their will". There is no baby to force a will prior to birth. Rather, forcing anything physically is an aggressiv...

Yes, I wonder this too. This is another case of number 3? Isn't it really just social cues retrospectively attributed to being "natural"? I guess it c...

So all that backchannelling with Guiliani to dig dirt up was not for personal gain? Interesting, I didn't know Trump was such a crusader against corru...

Both would be wrong, but one of the differences that makes this that much more corrupt is Trump is using a foreign entity to dig dirt on a political r...

I don't know all the background, but if he did the exact thing Trump is accused of doing, yes.

The big test is if a candidate from the other side did the exact same things, would you want them to be held accountable? Would you give them this muc...

I will simply re-post my whole discussion on the idea of natural from another post I had because it will do a better job than rephrasing it here. See ...

Yeah but yours came from a personal preference.. other animals simply "do" acts without deliberation or personal preference. It is more like a compute...

Right on.

So it sounds like answering you would then also be a waste, but I'll answer anyways because I can't let mischaracterized arguments stand. The bolded p...

I'll throw out the question again though, how is it that procreation is an instinct? I can see the pleasure from sex as a sort of "instinct" in that s...

I don't understand your objection. What do we understand more than what you have seen?

Right on. I wonder if more people think this than admit it. Can I ask what your motivations were, if you can remember when having them? Was there an o...

Very well-stated. The deprivational human animal and the conditions thrust upon what was unbound by causes and conditions is a great way to put the ex...

Good points.

Again, forcing people into life, even with some positive outcomes is still forcing. How does this get to bypass the non-aggression principle? How abou...

This is a non-sequitor. How is procreation being "natural" good because it is natural? That is the fallacy at hand here. In that regard, I don't see t...

The principle of non-aggression. Forcing something, even a good, is no good. However, there is weight ADDED to the argument when we look at the fact t...

The goals of morality would pertain to individuals. Ethical principles towards individuals means treating them not as a means to an ends (like for som...

So you can force someone into existence because- happiness? That is what I'm talking about as this all pervasive "trump" card. Get away with not follo...

Why does some goal have to include society. This is your big assumption. No that's not my reasoning. It wouldn't matter if the person was overjoyed th...

Agreed. Essentially the theme of non-reflection when choosing, yet this subject deserves the most analysis. Yes, your theme here seems to be that for ...

Agreed. However, I might not put it as emotion as much as preferences that are strongly favored by social cues. But yes, people often simply hold a no...

When we could deliberate and make choices. Obviously you would have to have ideas like "force" or concepts at all for things like ethics to be viable....

I'm not sure how "collateral damage" doesn't make sense. It means unintended bad consequences that go along with the "good stuff" intended. Fuzzy mean...

So there are several objections that I can see raised. 1) Collateral damage. Your experience is not another person's experience, even genetically rela...

No, the applied eventually goes down to "Why this normative ethics" as you are asking and it can't go much further besides meta-ethics- intuition, som...