schopenhauer1

This is typically overwrought rhetoric. Your logic like others, goes something like this "Even if I was to know a being would be born into certain tor...

So I stated before, that it is perhaps not worth being brought into a world that is not a paradise or utopia. So, you seem to be describing one that i...

You can repeat it like I don't understand, I get it. You can respect someone by NOT doing something to them. Because they don't exist YET, doesn't neg...

Yes respecting what could be by NOT foisting a game on them without their consent nor "gifting" them the conditions whereby they have the (known and u...

Ah, but the procreational decision is the only one where one would be recognizing the dignity of the person, without doing something against their con...

Dude, I JUST said above what you are objecting to, thus anticipating it: It's called an argument. Almost no argument posited, even "This is my hand" h...

Yes, exactly! I like the way you categorized the empirical outcome vs. the very decision-making situation itself as a more metaphysical aspect of havi...

EDIT: @"khaled"@"Isaac" Actually I'd like to amend what I said above. I should say, what is SEEMINGLY counterintuitive (antinatalist) stance, comes fr...

That is not an either/or. Rather, I have a different perspective on how to look at ethics than what you have stated. The way you phrased it right ther...

Antinatalism is not a hate group. It advocates no discrimination, harm, or violence on any particular group of people. And passively arguing for not p...

No, I agree. My main point is that people often view suffering as external, and exclude suffering made by oneself through poor decision-making. There ...

Playing the role of concerned mother at a PTA meeting, isn't philosophy. Make an argument or don't. I give you credit for being concerned (if that rea...

Yes, I was mostly aiming this at the academic types. People who tend to hangout in these forums perhaps, or similar. True enough. Ok. Yes, they need t...

Agreed, but we are generally our own harshest critic. No one else will know how much that decision affected you to the extent that it did. It's like t...

Good one. You don't have a good answer to it, so you if you call it pubescent, and attack it by not having an argument, you feel you diffuse the argum...

Setting up a game where people have to suffer to overcome it, when one could have set it up differently seems pretty immoral to me!

Yes you created some ridiculous scenarios, but that's not how these things usually go. Let's say you decided to make a purchase. In the store, the pur...

They are claiming that if you just made better decisions you wouldnt be so bad. Oh regret and remorse can be added too.

Nope

And so his suffering is justified? I guess the price of being a human born in existence right? Shame indeed.

I was not saying the individual wasn't accountable for that decision, just that the very fact of bad consequences in decision-making are a thing, are ...

Yes, I think you got the gist. Sometimes we are callous to ourselves. We have our own pathologies, tendencies, bad information, indecision. Life can b...

Its not meant to blame parents per se, just point out that poor decisions are part of the process of being human, and that people will make them is pa...

What is the definition of good and evil here?

No, you seem to go back to "natural" implying no creator that created these conditions that pain exists in the first place. Pain is bad, even if it ha...

To me, its foundational that pain, suffering, negative states are bad and causing conditions which inevitably will lead to them, is wrong if it can be...

You are either not getting or are purpusefully dodging the question. This discussion is about God who created the natural world, correct? You make it ...

This makes no sense. This discussion is about a God right? One that created this universe, no? My question was regarding the counterfactual possibilit...

So we have to go through pain to overcome it? Why must anything be subject to pain in this scheme? That seems immoral to create a universe with the ca...

Again, if God is free to create any universe he wants, why create one with the capacity for pain or any negative experience?

I never said that. Pay attention. I said the conditions for pain.. which you are replacing with capacity. Same thing. Whence noses then?

That's the same thing :lol:. NO its very much the point. Why? We are talking past each other. If God can make any type of universe he wants. He could ...

This is all a tautology infused with naturalistic fallacy, and has no defense that, indeed it does affect the "good-making" qualities of God. We have ...

Because if you do believe that God is free to do what he wants, he could have made a world without negative experiences for his little subjects. He di...

But supposedly God created the conditions of a world where there is pain for this animal, so God is not a passive bystander here. If he is omniscient,...

Right, well that might not be true, first (sci fi) and meanwhile not creating new people who will then be used in this scheme is an imperative if you ...

That seems too blanketed. One can be a pessimist born of (more) optimist parents (obviously, optimistic enough to at least have children). But I can b...

Sounds Neoplatonic in some way or Augustinian. Evil is defined as the absence of good. Good here is similar to 'true love' I guess. But even this stil...

I find it interesting when patterns of relations, people interacting in aggregate can itself be an "entity" which then can do things like "use" people...

What is 'true' love? How does 'true' love logically entail evil replacing it an immediate consequence? Is evil that which is not 'true' love? That's a...

I mean, if you are born, you are being used most likely by society, as much as you are using society. You consume and you "produce" for some organizat...

So then God puts people in a game where one must be harmed and go through trials and tribulations to prove their "goodness". A) This seems petty-like ...

That's a good question, cause if that is accurate, its a very Lamarckian error in his understanding of inheritance.

Yes I've heard of him. Can you explain his actual NU argument though? As far as I know, he is mainly saying that we should strive for a transhuman end...

Yep. I really don't like most utilitarian arguments in the realm of ethics that "aggregate" things and have no regard for the individual person. Thus,...

Yeah seems that way to me as well and indeed crazies are everywhere. I would like to say that I think a strong antinatalism takes into account the dig...

Edited to provide context.

Based on what you said, agreed. Certainly Antinatalism is about alleviating suffering as much as possible. It should be a passive and (not sure if rig...

Youre being ridiculous. We went over this before. If this line of reasoning is followed, then if someone who would be born, we knew was 100% going to ...

There's a lot to unpack here, but the crux of this is that procreation is instinctive. Is procreation itself actually instinctive or a consequence, ra...