schopenhauer1

Of course. I tend to agree.. Red herring it is. They pick and choose when this "no actual child" makes a difference it seems. For universal antinatali...

@"khaled" I think you've already had this little chestnut, but did you already answer the bad arguments for consent in regards to adoption or forcing ...

I'm starting to see similarities of these bad arguments with Trump supporters who by saying something a certain amount of times somehow makes a claim ...

Those two things are are far from the same category of dire need, and one is affecting the whole lifetime of another person. The other simply means on...

@"khaled" On a deeper, existential level, a lot of people put stock in the game itself. Thus, it's not the dignity of the person being compromised by ...

@"khaled" I still think the game scenario is the best analogy. It's as if after being kidnapped into the game, the person was like "But I prepared you...

Ha, understood. Notice I said natalists AND typical views on procreation. The nagging mothers and biological imperatives falls into that. However, I w...

Fair enough, natalists and typical views on procreation. So here is the little game you and that other guy on this thread play.. First you want to dis...

Of course, antinatalists can say the same of natalism... Not sure how "Not harming a future person" doesn't count as moral. The whole social group ben...

He is trying to circle a square to make a non-argument; making a definition that will exclude antinatalism as moral so as to not even consider it deba...

Yeah, your argument is slipping. If history is the battleground of human ideas playing out, it's got a lot of horrible examples of what humans do. Thu...

Exactly. Look at modern day Saudi Arabian practices of punishment and women's rights, All European Empire tactics towards non-European peoples, 400 BC...

But khaled, according to @"Joshs", most people will have wanted to have been born, and think that it was justified for the parents to cause the harm. ...

I refer you back to what @"Inyenzi" says.. there is no referent of the unborn that will suffer not being born. There will be someone who suffers if bo...

This is another natalist trope.. that because people don't commit suicide all over the place, that must mean that the decision to create another human...

I actually don't mind this interpretation. Certainly by having children, an existential stance is being made on how to move forward in life. It is an ...

Arthur Schopenhauer - 19th century German Idealist tradition- Main philosophy: Existence is Will- a striving force/principle, but manifested as phenom...

Good points.

Also https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/483829

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/483829

Um, antinatalism isn't about the already existing person. It is about the future person. Also, oddly, your points are already predicted and refuted in...

The world is not ideal. It is what it is. However, we can think of a more ideal world. It would be wrong to put anyone in a world that isn't the most ...

@"khaled" Let me explain further... Because of this extra layer of how we operate and survive, it adds that much more suffering onto the task at hand....

Yep agreed. I guess my point with that one too was that in so many ways humans are understanding their pain as they are living it. In a broader philos...

I totally agree with your sentiment and really like your explanation of how often finding a moral foundation is simply embedding it in yet another lay...

@"khaled" What do you think of this one? https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/482594

Just another argument I thought of for antinatalism.. Humans are (generally) creatures that can self-reflect on any given situation in real-time. An e...

Humans are not a bunch of inputs that magically will be programmed to be beneficial robot machines. And my main point is that even if you were to be a...

Using people is not respecting the dignity of the individual. If a person self-sacrifices, that is different than sacrificing someone else for some ca...

I think there are a couple ways of going about answering these conditional versions. 1) The risk factor. There is still a non-zero chance the child it...

What makes this game so good, other people must play it, instead of worrying about playing it yourself? If no one is born, clearly no one is suffering...

Well, first thing's first.. I do think that antinatalism is actually a good insight into general pessimism and big picture questions.. before I get in...

Usual pile on without adding. You know that's not true. If there are grammar mistakes to your filter, then as this thread has shown with people like m...

@"Echarmion" Of fuck, I used the term "people already existing".. But you know what I meant.. We exist rather than there being a state of affairs of n...

Die through the course of living life (through its challenges) or don't do that, just kill yourself. Don't see the problem with the or. No the challen...

Yes, die slowly (by playing the game in various ways.. some leading to faster death than others) or kill yourself. Kind of strengthens the argument ac...

That's for damn sure. You prove that all the time.

To those out there, I am characterizing the position that other people need to live life so they can find solutions as a smug argument yes. The word I...

So this goes back to my analogy of kidnapping someone into a game.. read the post about that. Don't feel like copying it. And for the thousandth time,...

Those are the de facto conditions. That is the game. I don't like to start games for other people. That is paternalistic. Again, deal with situations ...

The Schopenhaurean perspective is that deprivation is akin to the base of an existing animal and human as a phenomenal manifestation individuated in t...

And of course, I would say likewise to your counterarguments. Just because you characterize my arguments that way, doesn't make it so. But you can kee...

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I am qualifying affecting because you seemed to be saying affecting was too broad. You already know what kind o...

That it predates humanity doesn't counter what @"Inyenzi" saying. And it is precisely the human mind that often amplifies this type of suffering. We n...

@"khaled" What do you think of the tiresome and predictable move that the natalists make that parents make decisions on behalf of children all the tim...

I should really qualify "affecting" as imposing and causing conditions of harm on another person.

How is it not? A decision was made. This affected the individual being born. The individual being born could not possibly be a part of the decision af...

But you are the one making semantic games here. I stated earlier:

Displacement of when decision is made to when person is affected doesn't negate that a decision was made that affects a person.

There's too many similar conversations. Best to summarize at this point if I don't have time to hit each and every point, and again, they are similar ...