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The role of conspiracy theories in the American right

hypericin December 26, 2020 at 00:23 12000 views 53 comments
Conspiracy theories are a product of an movement no longer even minimally coherent.

Without conspiracy theories, an American must choose two of these three:

Be right wing
Be intelligent
Be free of massive cognitive dissonance

But conspiracy theories offer magical hope for this dilemma! "Ah, I knew it all along, I was right, my side was right after all!". The trash details arriving at this conclusion are irrelevant, only the conclusion itself matters. It is therefore the antithesis of science.

Conspiracies are an infinite sump for inconvenient intelligence. They exhaust it, as they are even more fecund than rationalizations. It is rationalization taken to an unholy extreme.

Like religion, it is mythology which serves as the essential foundation of an enterprise. Without it, just like religion, this enterprise (The extreme American neofascist corporate oligarchic movement ) would collapse.

Comments (53)

Rxspence December 26, 2020 at 00:55 #482814
Russian Collusion
Deleted User December 26, 2020 at 08:39 #482859
Quoting hypericin
The extreme American neofascist corporate oligarchic movement

What if you're on the Left and see the above as a conspiracy that is already realized and ongoing.
Athena December 26, 2020 at 17:57 #482929
Reply to hypericin The role of education was to make our democratic republic strong and united and to manifest the hopes of the Enlightenment of improving life on earth. Without that education, it all falls apart, and the good intentions of those who believe a military-industrial complex and leaving moral training to the church is best, have destroyed the education and culture we did have. Without that education, we do not have the culture and we are not united and we are not strong. Is that a truthful statement or conspiracy theory?
hypericin December 26, 2020 at 19:08 #482940
Reply to Athena
It is probably true that declining quality of education increased the vulnerability of the population to conspiracies. A true conspiracy theory can only be believed when there are massive gaps in the believer's model of the world. I would contend that the balkanization of the media, taken to the extreme on social media, is a far more salient factor.

Reply to Rxspence
Great reply, very thoughtful, but not a conspiracy.

Reply to deletedusercb
Great reply, very thoughtful, but not a conspiracy.
Valentinus December 26, 2020 at 23:42 #482996
Reply to hypericin
It is true that conspiracy theories are the sardines and hard tack of campaigns hell bent upon winning an "idea" vote for permission to do things. But it is not the case that conspiracy thinking began when that use of it did. One of the reasons systems of justice appeared is that rumor and poor understanding of what was actually happening made for really bad decisions.

Developing trust in certain kinds of witnesses involves skepticism. That is a lot more strenuous than being free of massive cognitive dissonance.
Athena December 27, 2020 at 15:25 #483110
Quoting hypericin
It is probably true that declining quality of education increased the vulnerability of the population to conspiracies. A true conspiracy theory can only be believed when there are massive gaps in the believer's model of the world. I would contend that the balkanization of the media, taken to the extreme on social media, is a far more salient factor.


Do you remember when journalism was consider essential to defending our democracy? Our local newspaper was named Register Guard and journalist took pride in keeping us well informed and in avoiding bias. Education promoted this understanding of journalism and democracy before our consumer economy took over and the only value we share is the value of money. That is, since Thomas Jefferson education was about making liberty possible and manifesting a strong and united republic based on democratic principles. That ended in 1958 with the National Defense Education Act and specialization for a high tech society with unknown values.

I believe Eisenhower was a man of integrity but he had a military education, not a liberal education and there were some things he just didn't understand, like what liberal education has to do with being independent thinkers and manifesting a culture for democracy that is cooperative and progressive because it comes out of enlightenment thinking. He asked congress for the education act and it had a time limit of 4 years! Some may say changing the purpose of education is just conspiracy theory, but the National Defense Education Act changes in education did not end in 4 years, but instead the federal government has taken more and more control of public education.

At the same time, Eisenhower, changed the relationship with government and research, and he the relationship of government and the media. This opened the door for Reagan's administration to use government funded research to uncover welfare fraud and scapegoat the poor for our bad economy when the oil embargo had us in a serious recession. Using the media to scapegoat the poor as Germany scapegoated the Jews, Reagan was able to slash domestic spending and pour money into military spending, and companies like Cheney's Halliburton were born to exploit the government for personal wealth.

What is the best way to cover this up? Declare such talk is conspiracy theory and add to it totally ridiculous and unfounded conspiracy statements. And people educated to depend on authority since 1958, and prepared for "group-think" rather than independent thinking, will follow the most popular belief and will not both to look for facts. We don't even know where to begin looking for facts and the University of Oregon removed the books of governments from the shelves, so we can not open a book and find these facts. The U of O had a space problem and turned to technology to resolve it microfilming the books and not realizing the importance of being able to read books not knowing what is in them.

Now I don't know if what I said is right or left. I just know what I discovered in a college library and the consequence of what Eisenhower did and for 20 years people respond to this information emotionally, without checking facts.


Athena December 27, 2020 at 15:32 #483113
Quoting deletedusercb
The extreme American neofascist corporate oligarchic movement — hypericin

What if you're on the Left and see the above as a conspiracy that is already realized and ongoing.


Well, knowing the history of Germany would help immensely, but I have already set myself up to be the target of emotional people, and I don't think I should I go any further before I know if people are going to throw stones or think about what I am saying and ask questions. Just consider this, the Bush family was very proud of leading the New World Order and they were well connected with Germany at the time of WWII. Eisenhower's term for that is Military Industrial Complex and Prussia gave us the model for this. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts power to centralized government and the US adopted the German model of education that compliments the bureaucratic order.
Deleted User December 27, 2020 at 16:16 #483121
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
TheMadFool December 27, 2020 at 17:25 #483134
Reply to hypericin Quoting hypericin
But conspiracy theories offer magical hope for this dilemma! "Ah, I knew it all along, I was right, my side was right after all!". The trash details arriving at this conclusion are irrelevant, only the conclusion itself matters. It is therefore the antithesis of science.


This doesn't add up. A conspiracy theorist is vindicated precisely when the evidence that fae depends on and the conclusion that fae draws from it hangs together. Last I checked, conspiracy theory proponents do go to great lengths to prove their case whatever that may be and that's just another way of saying that conspiracy theories aren't just about conclusions.
Rxspence December 28, 2020 at 04:07 #483227
Quoting hypericin
Great reply, very thoughtful, but not a conspiracy.


hypericin
what lofty aspiration does one have to reach to be a conspiracy
or are you saying that it was a blatant lie
hypericin December 28, 2020 at 13:30 #483267
Reply to Rxspence
True, I misspoke:
Russian collision was a conspiracy, to assist a hostile power to illegally affect the election. One can theorize about such conspiracies, without engaging in a conspiracy theory.

A conspiracy theory is something more than its name suggests: It is typically the work of amateurs, seeking to overturn expert opinion in favor of an outlandish alternative. Such "theories" require the complicity of the entire body of subject experts to cover up the truth the theory purports to expose. I think this is ultimately the "conspiracy" referred to. Facts and sound reason fall by the wayside, as every sophistic trick and duplicity possible is employed by the conspiracist to arrive at the desired conclusion.

BTW, Collusion happened, so it almost by definition is not a conspiracy theory. I wonder what conspiracy theory you employ to discount the findings of the republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee?
hypericin December 28, 2020 at 13:36 #483268
Reply to TheMadFool
Sure they will cite evidence until the cows come home. They show infinite creativity here.
But, the conclusion is what is all important. The "evidence" is just means to that end. Typically this "evidence" is easily dismissed, by experts. But conspiracy theories operate outside the domain of experts (otherwise I guess they would be "fringe theories"). Their audience is the lay public, and the quality of evidence must only be good enough to fool them.
ssu December 28, 2020 at 14:01 #483269
Reply to hypericin Well, with the previous Republican President (Bush the younger), there was one of the greatest conspiracy theories AGAINST the Republicans. And of course conspiracy theories have been part of American political culture since the JFK assassination, at least.

I think now the reason is simply that you have a POTUS that himself is promoting wild conspiracy theories. And conspiracy buffs like Alex Jones were part of his base. Nothing gets better I guess for conspiracy buffs. Just think of from that point of view: "Well if the President of the US of A himself believes..."

(And without giving any thought just who this President is.)
TheMadFool December 28, 2020 at 15:20 #483275
Quoting hypericin
Sure they will cite evidence until the cows come home. They show infinite creativity here.
But, the conclusion is what is all important. The "evidence" is just means to that end. Typically this "evidence" is easily dismissed, by experts. But conspiracy theories operate outside the domain of experts (otherwise I guess they would be "fringe theories"). Their audience is the lay public, and the quality of evidence must only be good enough to fool them.


A few points to consider:

1. Fact is stranger than fiction (Many times, reality has outdone our wildest imaginations. This is as clear as crystal from media headlines that more often than not use words like "shocking", "surprising", etc.. Even correcting for the media's penchant for sensationalism, such descriptors appear at an unusually high frequency)

2. Improbable doesn't mean impossible (Even if we agree that conspiracy theories are improbable, that doesn't, in any way, imply their impossibility. Think lotteries...highly improbable for an individual to win the jackpot but someone does win)

3. Simulation Hypothesis (Nick Bostrom's argued that it's likelier that we're living in a (computer-generated) simulation than not and that's a point in favor of conspiracy theorists - after all, who knows what plans the creators of our simulated reality have for us or, in true conspiracy theory spirit, what plans have they hatched against us?

4. Descartes' Deus Deceptor (This remains an unsolved problem in philosophy but it's just an older version of 3. Simulation Hypothesis and also let's not forget another gem of skepticism at its best - brain in a vat thought experiment)

What's odd is that conspiracy theories emerge from doubt/refusing to believe/accept the "official story". Being skeptical, critical thinking experts say, is a very healthy habit - to be cultivated until it becomes second nature to us - and yet when people are skeptical, they're frowned up as conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do than spin a yarn around what are supposedly plain, obvious, and simple events. If there's a fault in conspiracy theories, it's not the skepticism from which they emerge but in the alternatives to what's accepted as truth that they offer. It's one thing to doubt a claim but another to come up with an even more improbable alternative.
Rxspence December 28, 2020 at 15:42 #483278
Quoting hypericin
BTW, Collusion happened, so it almost by definition is not a conspiracy theory.


The party that purchased the Russian disinformation (Steele dossier) colluded with Russia.
at least 74 million voters agree
hypericin December 28, 2020 at 22:34 #483338
Quoting TheMadFool
It's one thing to doubt a claim but another to come up with an even more improbable alternative.


Right. Conspiracists are not skeptics, they are the exact opposite: True Believers.
Doubting established wisdom is one thing. But then giving full credulity to a far less likely theory is where skepticism ends.

Banno December 28, 2020 at 22:45 #483340
Hmmm.

There's nothing about conspiracy theories that renders them automatically wrong.
hypericin December 28, 2020 at 22:57 #483341
Reply to Banno ... just as there is nothing about predictions made by casting bones that renders them automatically wrong.
Banno December 28, 2020 at 23:32 #483347
Reply to hypericin Well, no. There is no link between the bones and the future. But a conspiracy does link to the future in a causal fashion.

There is one aspect of some conspiracy theories that is worth noting. Watkin's all-and-some propositions... hence they can neither be verified nor falsified.

An article worth reading: Confirmable and influential metaphysics.

...new thread, methinks.
hypericin December 29, 2020 at 00:06 #483352
Reply to Banno
I would argue that conspiracy theories are vastly worse than reading bones.

Reading bones is basically guessing about the future. As long as the divinator interprets the bones so as to make reasonable guesses, this is about as good as you can predict the future anyway (apart from the limited subset of cases we understand and can predict accurately). You would therefore expect reading bones to be at least a middling prognosticating tool.

Conspiracy theories don't predict, they interpret events. The basic methodology is to substitute the best interpretations of experts with amateur, sloppy, often politically motivated, usually batshit crazy interpretations. Their accuracy is therefore terrible, and ranks far lower as an interpretive technique than reading bones ranks as a prognosticating technique.
Banno December 29, 2020 at 00:08 #483353
Reply to hypericin

Then the problem is not the conspiracy so much as the amateur, sloppy, often politically motivated, usually batshit crazy interpretations.
hypericin December 29, 2020 at 00:10 #483355
Reply to Banno In other words, the problem is not the conspiracy so much as conspiracy theories.
Banno December 29, 2020 at 00:14 #483358
Reply to hypericin The problem is not the conspiracy so much as conspiracy theorist.
hypericin December 29, 2020 at 00:20 #483362
Reply to Banno The problems I mentioned are not features of individual conspiracy theorists, they are features, as I see it, of this genre of interpretation.
Pfhorrest December 29, 2020 at 02:40 #483389
Reply to Athena Reply to hypericin

With regard to the influence of education here, that is why I think that it is important to have public educators going out and contesting falsehoods in the public discourse, making sure there is an argument about them and they don't just go unchallenged, even as dangerously close to authoritarianism as that might veer, because freethought is by its very anti-authoritarian nature paradoxically vulnerable to small pockets of epistemic authority arising out of the power vacuum, and if that instability goes completely unchecked, it can easily threaten to destroy the freethinking discourse entirely and collapse it into a new, epistemically authoritarian regime; a religion in effect, even if not in name.

In the absence of good education of the general populace, all manner of little "cults", for lack of a better word, easily spring up. By that I mean small groups of kooks and cranks and quacks each with their own strange dogmas, their own quirky views on what they find to be profound hidden truths that they think everyone else is either just too stupid to wise up to, or else are being actively suppressed by those who want to hide those truths from the public.

Like all these conspiracy theorists.

Meanwhile, those with greater knowledge see those supposed truths for the falsehoods that they are, and can show them to be such, if only the others could be engaged in a legitimately rational discourse. But instead, these groups use irrational means of persuasion to to ensnare others who do not know better into their little cults; and left unchecked, these can easily become actual full-blown religions, their quirky little forms of ignorance becoming widespread, socially-acceptable ignorance, that can appropriate the veneer of epistemic authority and force their ignorance on others under the guise of knowledge.

Checking the spread of such ignorance by challenging it in the public discourse is the role of the public educator. The need for that role would be lessened if more people would actively seek out education, but not everyone will seek out their own education and so some people will continue to spread ignorance – and even those who do seek out their own education may still accidentally spread ignorance – and in that event, there need to be public educators to stand against that.

But that then veers awfully close to proposing effectively another "religion" to counter the growth of others.

I think there is perhaps an irresolvable paradox here, in that a public discourse abhors a power vacuum and so the only way to keep religions, institutions claiming epistemic authority, at bay, is in effect to have one strong enough to do so already in place. But I think there is still hope for freedom of thought, in that not all religions are equally authoritarian: even within religions as more normally and narrowly characterized, some have their dogma handed down through strict decisions and hierarchies, while others more democratically decide what they as a community believe. I think that the best that we can hope for, something that we have perhaps come remarkably close to realizing in the educational systems of some contemporary societies, is a "religion", or rather an academic system, that enshrines the principles of freethought, and is structured in a way consistent with those principles.

What semblance of that we may have once had in America sure seems to be failing nowadays, at least.
leo December 29, 2020 at 18:37 #483465
Quoting hypericin
I would argue that conspiracy theories are vastly worse than reading bones.


A conspiracy theory is a theory that there is a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is a group of people secretly agreeing to do something wrong.

A theory can be true or false.

Plenty of conspiracy theories have turned out to be true. See here for a list : https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/lopc

It is meaningless to say that conspiracy theories as a whole are worse than reading bones. There are conspiracy theories that are an accurate description of what is really happening, and others that are an inaccurate description.

The conspiracy theories that are correct correctly describe what has happened or what happens.

There is the widespread misconception that a conspiracy theory equates a false or far-fetched idea. That’s a misconception. And sometimes, conspiracy theories that appear far-fetched do turn out to be true.

People conspire. Powerful people conspire. How they conspire is the question that conspiracy theorists attempt to answer. There are some very intelligent people among conspiracy theorists, contrary to popular belief. And some not-so reasonable people, as everywhere.
hypericin December 29, 2020 at 23:53 #483550
Reply to leo
With words there is a fine line between "common misconception" and "common usage". No one is going around thinking there is no such thing as conspiracies. "Conspiracy theories" are not merely theories about conspiracies. The term picks out a particular, paranoid style of reasoning. One which is totally out of control in the right wing. I'm presuming you are all familiar with the usage.
Garth December 30, 2020 at 01:41 #483602
I see the role of these fringe ideologies as emerging from the confluence of two social factors.

1. The myth of the "Real American". It is arguably the basis of the Tea Party movement and the distinction between "working" and "not working" people which fueled Trumps populism (Source, Source). In fact, this myth has been invoked multiple times throughout the history of both America and Europe. The short-lived period of success of Fascist Vichy France, along with its reactionary politics, was based on a myth which has chilling parallels to what many Right-Wing Americans espouse today. The form of the myth is that the "real people of the nation" are the ones living outside of the cities, doing the real work and leading hard and pious lives. In contrast, those in the cities are the Jews, Socialists, Communists, Blacks, Foreigners, and their collaborators, who do not really serve any function are are living off of the surplus (Marxist term used ironically) that is produced by the real people. This ideology led to policies which went beyond what the Nazis demanded. Source.

2. The diminishing importance of social roles in our concept of ethics. The Ethics which underlies the "Real American" is essentially Aristotelian. Nichomachean Ethics argues that the best life a man can live (Au Zen, "living well") consists in him effectively performing all of his social roles. These roles were determined by the various social relations a person had, as a friend, a juror, a soldier, a member of a household, etc. I am not here suggesting that Aristotle would be a Republican if he were alive today. Instead, I simply wish to emphasize the parallel between this role based "Virtue" Ethics and the thinking of conservatives. This way of thinking has its greatest champion in the Church, with the Catholic Church being the most prominent in its intellectual contributions to this body of thought. However, it is not the Ethics of the Enlightenment and as such has been challenged and is in decline as the relevant Ethics of public policy today. Nevertheless, conservative society is still marked by these essentially Aristotelian attitudes, which proscribe roles for everyone based on identities which must be externally obvious and at the same time relatively unchanging in order for everyone to know everyone's role and therefore collectively enforce the dominant ethic. Evidence that conservatives do think this way is almost unnecessary -- such attitudes are written into the definition of conservatism (unfortunately I'm unable to provide actual evidence at this time).

As the power of the Church has declined over the years, so has the influence of this way of thinking. It contrasts especially with the ethics of the market, "Marketism" (Or Marxism?), in which value is not guaranteed and instead is only what others are willing to pay. Americans who engage in market competition, either as poor workers or as business owners therefore encounter this ideology. The proponents of this sort of Ethic often champion freedom in one form or another -- we can count among them Ayn Rand, Robert Nozick, and Karl Marx to name a few.

Virtue ethics also contrast with Enlightenment theories like Utilitarianism and theories of rights. These are what are taught in school and the basis of modern jurisprudence as well as the tools which are used in public discourse on current events and public policy. I'm intentionally omitting Kantian ethics from this list since nobody knows what he is really arguing and attempts like that of Rawls essentially lead to similar policies as utilitarianism. There are so many authors writing in these traditions that I can hardly list them, and because I haven't researched it, I don't actually know which are the most relevant.

Thus, there are four Ethical theories in competition today: Virtue Ethics, Utilitarianism, Rights systems, and Marketism.

Now, it is possible to argue effectively and cogently for a complete right-wing agenda from the point of view of only Virtue Ethics. Because this Ethic does not presuppose a universal foundation, it is easily interpreted to support whatever traditional values already exists in the society, and it is difficult (or maybe impossible) to critique those values from within virtue ethics. If we divide the right-wing agenda into two parts, one being social conservatism and the other being laissez-faire economics, we find that Rights systems and Marketism conflict with the first and utilitarianism conflicts with the latter.

Right-Wing politics requires a coalition, so they will naturally bring in people believing in ideologies founded on one or more of these bases. But the pundits and spin doctors that wish to create messages that appeal to the entire base therefore have a problem: How to message in a way which appeals to people who ascribe to such starkly conflicting ideologies. The answer, of course, is to simply avoid any logical discussion at all. Instead, craft arguments based on all of the natural flaws in human psychology. Because 50% of the population has an IQ below 100, it turns out that this strategy works surprisingly well!

Messaging can't be based on virtue ethics simply because nobody learns virtue ethics anymore. But its influences still exist in conservative thinking in a half-formed and sophomoric way. Thus, Right-wingers are susceptible to messages that lead them toward thinking along the lines of how they are fulfilling their roles for society while others are not doing so or actively working to undermine America. This is already very conspiratorial, but it is not itself based on a flawed framework except insofar as Aristotle is flawed. But it doesn't draw out any real contradictions in Aristotle because it is an extremely abstract and weak understanding of the relevant ethics. Instead, it is just a form of nationalism which has the potential to erupt into populism and even Fascism. The sparks that bring about these eruptions are the conspiracy theories which right-wingers are unable to properly think through precisely because they are unaware of the nature of their own ethics.

Much of my thinking in this post was inspired by the book After Virtue by MacIntyre and the Psychological research of Jonathan Haidt.
Pfhorrest December 30, 2020 at 06:06 #483637
Quoting Garth
Thus, there are four Ethical theories in competition today: Virtue Ethics, Utilitarianism, Rights systems, and Marketism.


I don’t see how your “marketism” stands apart as its own thing, especially if you lump Rand and Marx both together under it. Market evaluation is a function of either (or both) a utilitarian evaluation (whatever most people want the most is most valuable) or(/and) a rights-based system (whoever owns a thing, whoever has a right to it, gets to decide what it’s worth to them, and so what they would sell it for).

Also, both Kantian ethics and rights-based ethics are part of the same category of deontological ethics. Kant is all about duties, and rights are analyzable in terms of duties. Nozick is also firmly in that camp, too.

I do think you are on the right track about there being four kinds of ethical system, though. The usual three taught in ethics classes are aretaic (virtue-based, like Aristotle), deontological (duty-based, like Kant and rights theories), and consequentialist or teleological (outcome-based, like utilitarianism). I think the fourth, that doesn't usually get studied per se but is visible in effect around the world and across history, is political, as in, what is good is to comply with the commands of the correct authorities, be that in Christian divine command theory or Chinese legalism, or others.

I also think that rather than competing methods of answering the same question, these are all better seen (and reconciled with each other) as concerning different questions entirely: what is the nature of functional moral judgement, or will (the aretaic question), what are the proper methods by which to exercise that (the deontological question), what are the ends to aim for with such methods (the teleological question), and who are to conduct and oversee this process (the political question).

I see these as analogous to four other philosophical questions more concerned with reality than morality: questions about the nature of the mind and consciousness (analogous to the will-focused aretaic questions), epistemological questions (analogous to deontological ones), ontological questions (analogous to teleological ones), and questions about academics, as in who is to conduct and oversee this process (analogous to political questions).
Garth December 30, 2020 at 07:40 #483642
Quoting Pfhorrest
I don’t see how your “marketism” stands apart as its own thing


I see theories of rights as arising from preexisting rights as defined in law and jurisprudence that go back into history. Philosophical rights are attempts to find generalities or unifying principles to justify various existing legal rights. From this, the consequence of the principle either strikes the philosophical community as absurd, in which case the principle is revised or scrapped, or it is used as the basis of argument for changes to existing law. One example of this expansion is the notion of human rights as expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The thing that groups these theories of rights together in my mind is how they arise and can be integrated meaningfully into debates on public policy. Because they are based on existing law and jurisprudence they are typically pertinent and meaningful in debate. The average person can recognize and even has basic notions of fairness based on rights. For instance, many people are stunned to find that, in many US states, they can lose their job for something like participating in a political rally. They exclaim "I thought I had the freedom of speech!"

Now, extreme ideologies which might use the term "rights" can't fit into this debate. If a libertarian starts screaming "taxation is theft!" or a Marxist describes labor in terms of theft of surplus value, they aren't so much as weighing in on policy options but calling for a radically different system than the one we have. Because their point of view is so different, and because they propose such huge changes to the system, there is no way for even the best academic, let alone the typical voter, to imagine how the world would be if these changes were made (spoiler: it would suck).

A debate about policy can't exist under such conditions because in order for a debate to actually be about the policy, the debaters must agree about many things in the status quo. Two libertarians wouldn't debate about whether a public option should be included in the healthcare bill, because they already agree that there shouldn't be a healthcare bill in the first place. Similarly, if Bernie Sanders was debating that libertarian, the reasons the libertarian provides wouldn't be specific to that public option's merits but rather deal with the more general question of whether Government should provide healthcare regulation at all. Thus the debate would never even reach the policy in question. The same is true for Marxists and the like. They will not debate the issue, but rather repeatedly call into question various prior principles.

Indeed, the reason why I must separate them from traditional conceptions of rights is that they cannot be analyzed according to the criterion of absurdity, because if judged according to conventional sentiments they immediately suggest many absurd things. They also reject the notion of steady improvement to existing institutions in favor of rebuilding institutions from scratch, meaning that some essential groups among existing experts in law, bureaucrats, managers, etc. are treated as useless by these theories. Thus if libertarians ever seized power anywhere (and actually went through with the policy changes their ideology demands) it would be a disaster, although admittedly not as bad as communism was, because libertarian dysfunction develops over time while communists create their dysfunction at the beginning.

The reason I lump all these theories together as marketism is because of these concerns. But it isn't really important to my argument, so grant your point. We can consider them functionally to be various rights theories, just not ones that generate meaningful public policy debates.

Quoting Pfhorrest
Also, both Kantian ethics and rights-based ethics are part of the same category of deontological ethics.


The Categorical Imperative, in its "universal law" formulation is extremely ambiguous as to what it really defines as Ethical as Kant envisioned it. Zizek has attacked it as being as much a principle of good as of evil since you could also formulate universal evil rules. MacIntyre argues that Kant has left something important out of this formulation, citing maxims like "Always persecute those who hold false religious beliefs". It is not what Kant meant. Kant's alternative formulation to treat people as ends rather than means is much stronger, but perhaps too strong. If I pay a person money to do something for me, I'm certainly using him as a means. All I can do according to Kant is to try to convince him to help me by outlining the merits of my business. In this sense, Kantian philosophy is essentially anarchistic.

This is why I follow the "veil of ignorance" approach which Rawls uses to resolve the problems with Kantian ethics. But that results in a form of maximin utilitarianism. Thus, for practical purposes related to American Politics, I would prefer to exclude Kant, and if he is included, treat him as a maximin utilitarian.


Wayfarer December 31, 2020 at 03:10 #483814
Current survey on belief in conspiracy theories published 30 Dec NPR

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/30/951095644/even-if-its-bonkers-poll-finds-many-believe-qanon-and-other-conspiracy-theories
Athena December 31, 2020 at 15:47 #483911
Quoting Pfhorrest
With regard to the influence of education here, that is why I think that it is important to have public educators going out and contesting falsehoods in the public discourse, making sure there is an argument about them and they don't just go unchallenged, even as dangerously close to authoritarianism as that might veer, because freethought is by its very anti-authoritarian nature paradoxically vulnerable to small pockets of epistemic authority arising out of the power vacuum, and if that instability goes completely unchecked, it can easily threaten to destroy the freethinking discourse entirely and collapse it into a new, epistemically authoritarian regime; a religion in effect, even if not in name.

In the absence of good education of the general populace, all manner of little "cults", for lack of a better word, easily spring up. By that I mean small groups of kooks and cranks and quacks each with their own strange dogmas, their own quirky views on what they find to be profound hidden truths that they think everyone else is either just too stupid to wise up to, or else are being actively suppressed by those who want to hide those truths from the public.

Like all these conspiracy theorists.

Meanwhile, those with greater knowledge see those supposed truths for the falsehoods that they are, and can show them to be such, if only the others could be engaged in a legitimately rational discourse. But instead, these groups use irrational means of persuasion to to ensnare others who do not know better into their little cults; and left unchecked, these can easily become actual full-blown religions, their quirky little forms of ignorance becoming widespread, socially-acceptable ignorance, that can appropriate the veneer of epistemic authority and force their ignorance on others under the guise of knowledge.

Checking the spread of such ignorance by challenging it in the public discourse is the role of the public educator. The need for that role would be lessened if more people would actively seek out education, but not everyone will seek out their own education and so some people will continue to spread ignorance – and even those who do seek out their own education may still accidentally spread ignorance – and in that event, there need to be public educators to stand against that.

But that then veers awfully close to proposing effectively another "religion" to counter the growth of others.

I think there is perhaps an irresolvable paradox here, in that a public discourse abhors a power vacuum and so the only way to keep religions, institutions claiming epistemic authority, at bay, is in effect to have one strong enough to do so already in place. But I think there is still hope for freedom of thought, in that not all religions are equally authoritarian: even within religions as more normally and narrowly characterized, some have their dogma handed down through strict decisions and hierarchies, while others more democratically decide what they as a community believe. I think that the best that we can hope for, something that we have perhaps come remarkably close to realizing in the educational systems of some contemporary societies, is a "religion", or rather an academic system, that enshrines the principles of freethought, and is structured in a way consistent with those principles.

What semblance of that we may have once had in America sure seems to be failing nowadays, at least.


I can not praise what you said enough, but I add very valuable information to what you said.

We adopted the Prussian military-bureaucratic order because it is so much more efficient than the bureaucratic order we had and the public services we have today would not be possible without this change. Although what we call the German model is very powerful and efficient, there is a problem with it. Sara H. Fahey quoted the poet and seer India to raise awareness of the problem at the 1917 National Education Association Conference.

"Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal and therefore completely effective in crushing out individual power and power."

You can conclude from that in 1917 the US government was not organize
Athena December 31, 2020 at 15:52 #483913
I want to provide a better explanation of the change in bureaucratic order that has been adopted by all institutions including schools and hospitals and others. This change in bureaucratic order profoundly changed the focus of an education.

Here is why our reality today is nothing like the time of our forefathers. I am copying from a college text Public Administration and Public Affairs by Nicholas Henry. In reading this one might give some thought to Eisenhower's warning to not be too reliant on the experts. We might also consider if the arguing between the left and right makes sense when the common issue is a lack of personal control.

Nicholas Henry:We have been suggesting in the preceding paragraphs that bureaucracy grows in large part because technology requires expertise, and bureaucrats are the political actors who have been saddled with the responsibility of interpreting and translating complex technology and social problems into policy. By adopting this explanation of the reison d' etre of the bureaucratic phenomenon as our primary thesis, we have posited a fundamental tension between bureaucracy and democracy. On the one hand are the bureaucrats-as-experts, the specialists with knowledge about particular professions and technics. On the other hand are "the people", those who represent what are considered human values. To carry Thithis dichotomy even further, we have the "computers"- the "technocrats" - squaring off against "humanity". This dichotomization, which obviously is grossly overdrawn, is nonetheless of the root tension between "the bureaucrats" and "the people".
hypericin January 02, 2021 at 01:35 #484201
To summarize my op, it is not reasonable to hold right wing beliefs in America anymore. But instead of changing their beliefs, which for many amounts to ego death, the right changes something far more fungible: their reason. If reason produces the wrong results, change reason, not the desired results. This is the conspiracy theory mindset: alternative reasoning, to complement alternative facts. The right political class has therefore become peddlers of cheap conspiracy theories to a base of insane people.

fishfry January 02, 2021 at 02:16 #484206
Quoting hypericin
The right political class has therefore become peddlers of cheap conspiracy theories to a base of insane people.


And the left, the home of Russiagate and Hunter Biden's laptop as Russian disinformation, are the modern rationalists? I'll take the other side of that proposition.

The problem with the phrase "conspiracy theory" is this. Someone asserts that the earth is flat and that the world is run by lizard people. They get called conspiracy theorists. Then later, the government wishes to lie the country into war. They assert falsely that Saddam has WMDs or that the North Vietnamese attacked a US naval vessel at the Gulf of Tonkin; then they label political dissent as conspiracy theories, to smear legitimate dissent by association with nutballery. That's the move you're making here. You define conspiracy theory as any idea you don't like, or any idea that conflicts with the official status quo that you happen to favor.
hypericin January 02, 2021 at 04:26 #484219
Reply to fishfry

LOL
On the one side you have QAnon, the Orwellian "Stop the Steal", 1000 voter fraud conspiracies, Fake News (the conspiracy of the entire media against Trump), Covid Hoaxers, Climate Hoaxers, RussiaGateGate (aka "investigate the investigators"), UkraineGate, Sandy Hook, etc. But that's just scratching the surface. The right wing is a witches cauldron of conspiracy, new ones bubble up faster than anyone can keep track.

And for the other side the best you could muster is RussiaGate, corroborated by US intelligence and the republican Senate, and something about whatever right wing promulgated conspiracy hunter biden's laptop was.

And you prefer the first one. What a sad joke.
fishfry January 02, 2021 at 05:14 #484222
Quoting hypericin
What a sad joke.


Nice having an intelligent chat with you.
hypericin January 02, 2021 at 06:34 #484231
Conspiracy theories serve the believers. They permit them to believe what their reason would otherwise cause them to abandon, and avoid suffering the consequent ego loss.

But conspiracies serve another master as well. Once the conspiratorial mode of thinking is adopted, the believer can no longer be reasoned with. Just imagine trying to argue a QAnon true believer out of their belief. Obviously impossible. The mind of a conspiracist is much more flexible than a rational person's: their main epistemological criteria is, “does the answer come out right?”. Any mooring with reality is unimportant, which gives the conspiracist tremendous rhetorical latitude. Foolishly attempt to debunk a conspiratorial claim, hydra-like, 7 new claims will spring from nowhere to replace it.

As they are imperturbable to logic and facts, conspiracists are fanatics. They are the core of Trump's notorious base, the reason his approval never went much below 40%. Having fanatics on your side is solid gold for politicians. Is it any wonder that conspiratorial thinking is so encouraged?

The American right, by their lunacy, have forced their adherents to conspiracy theories. And since their reason is shut down, the right is full of fanatics. Paradoxically, the more ludicrous the right has become, the stronger it has become. To believe them, reason must be surrendered, and so fanaticism is required, a devil's bargain the right wing masses have accepted.
Brett January 02, 2021 at 06:37 #484232
Reply to hypericin

Quoting hypericin
Once the conspiratorial mode of thinking is adopted, the believer can no longer be reasoned with.


There seems to be no chance of reasoning with you and the low regard you have for the right.
jorndoe January 02, 2021 at 18:28 #484296
Someone should set up some ghosts for those QAnon people to chase. :D
The elusive "Anti-QAnon organizations" that perform magical rituals to deprive them of their souls, and eat their children with a good Chianti, ...
Actually, it seems they're already chasing their own ghosts.

Rxspence February 25, 2021 at 21:05 #503080
The only part of conspiracy theory that is questionable is two or more people.
If an individual murders a person, (oh I don't know, Seth Rich for example)
and Seth had access to all of the dnc emails, and was very angry that his candidate
(Bernie Sanders) was screwed by the dnc, that may be worth investigating.
The fact that Seth's screen name was Panda and Hillary was recorded in a speach saying sometimes you have to kill the Panda (holding the Ming vase) two nights before!
and the fact that assange and several others have given accounts of the transfere of Emails
from Rich to Wikileaks as well as the fact that his murder was considered a robbery and nothing
was taken.
and even though a group of america's most respected retired intelligence officials
stated that the download was too fast to have happened from outside the building.
Yea, it must have been the Russians.. The veil of Ignorance approach
Or maybe there should have been an Investigation?

Count Timothy von Icarus February 25, 2021 at 21:37 #503095
You can be intelligent and believe conspiracy theories. Intelligence, at least in the psychometric sense it is used in research on intelligence, is mostly about processing speed. Provided you grow up in a developed country and avoid disease and injury, it's mostly genetic. It can be measured pretty robustly.

In layman's terms, I'd say there is a big difference between intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom isn't something we measure in psychology or neuroscience. It's probably a mix of things we study; personality and intelligence. I'd imagine that people who tend to have high levels of the Big Five personality traits "Openess to Experience," and "Conscientiousness," along with high IQs tend to be "wiser," and generally more resistant to conspiracies. Knowledge is a huge factor too. If you actually work or have closely participated in politics, the idea of shadowy elites who always get their way is pretty laughable. Things are often a mess and generally no one involved is happy.
Paul S February 25, 2021 at 21:40 #503099
Reply to hypericin Probably the most dumbed down and insulting OP I have read on here. Politically motivated and not in any way related to philosophy, just a sad attempt to flamebait really.

This should not be posted here, try twitter.

A conspiracy theory can be defined as a rational type of abstract thinking about a secret plan or agreement between persons (called conspirers or conspirators) for an unlawful or harmful purpose, such as but not limited to, murder or treason, usually but not always with political motivation.

They are as old as civilisation itself and at times serve an important purpose. If you have a problem with that, then I'm not sure you are not beyond redemption.
Count Timothy von Icarus February 25, 2021 at 21:52 #503107
Reply to Rxspence

Great example here. The "DNC hack was local," was actually an intentional hoax made up by a troll in the UK. The story ran in many major outlets because VIPS (the former intel officials you mention), signed on to it. Most never even published corrections. It's hard to find a hoax that has been more fully debunked than this one, because the person who ran it was found, and their methods uncovered, but it lives on.

There is a step by step analysis of what happened linked below if you're interested. It is interesting because normally someone doesn't get so completely caught, but in this case you can see step by step what happened. If you read it, let me know if it changed your mind at all.

Essentially, a tech worker in the UK falsified evidence that the DNC download was fake. He did it sloppily. He has been involved in similar antics in the past. His report on the "local download theory" was published under a fake name. He sent it to VIPS. VIPS has actually since admitted they were had and that this was a hoax. In fact, many of the members never wanted to associate their credibility with the report

The guy doing the hoax targeted William Binney, a disabled former NSA employee with a grudge against the agency. He has helped keep the conspiracy alive by continuing to advocate for it on podcasts, even after VIPS retracted their support for the theory. They pressured Binney into admitting that he had absolutely no technical qualifications for vetting the report. However, it seems a desire for fame and getting another big break and hit against his former employer, the way VIPS did with Iraq, eventually got him out pushing the conspiracy again. He's waffled on it depending on the venue.

The guy who did the hoax has also been involved in circulating EU leaks attributed to Russia. He could knowingly be a Russian asset, or just someone who likes to be involved in espionage and is easily used as an asset. In the history of espionage lots of recruits are made just because people want to be involved in something "cool" and feel important. This seems even more true in the digital age. The best assets are actually the ones who don't know who their handlers work for, and who see their handlers as on the same level as them, or even beneath them.

The meeting the Trump campaign had with Russian intelligence officials is a great example. Perhaps no one on the Trump campaign is lying and the meeting amounted to nothing. However, they showed up for a meeting with a Russian intelligence officer whose cover was already blown specifically to discuss "dirt on Hillary," a few weeks before the email leaks. Just them showing up looks suspicious and causes chaos. That alone is an amazing intelligence coup. They never had to get the campaign to collude, getting high level campaign figures and the President's son involved in suspicious activity is good enough. Sort of like the Hunter Biden saga, or Bill Clinton being paid $1M to do a speech for UBS shortly after Clinton settled a fraud case with them for State. If it looks bad enough, that's enough to spread discord. It helps too that top federal positions and Congress are exempt from the level of corruption law that state and local officals in most states are subject too. For many states it is illegal to engage in activities that give the perception of corruption, even if your aren't doing anything untold.

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252445769/Briton-ran-pro-Kremlin-disinformation-campaign-that-helped-Trump-deny-Russian-links
Ciceronianus February 25, 2021 at 21:56 #503112
Quoting Banno
The problem is not the conspiracy so much as conspiracy theorist.


According to the Sage of Baltimore, H.L. Mencken, “The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts.”

It happens to be the case that P.T. Barnum, or whoever it was who claimed a sucker is born every minute, underestimated the frequency with which suckers are born. Suckers abound. But it comforts all those of us disappointed in life for one reason or another to believe our disappointment is the result of a conspiracy, and we're not to blame. And disappointment has become something of a habit, or even a way of living, in these dark times.
Count Timothy von Icarus February 25, 2021 at 23:39 #503149
I'd add that the American left has also had a penchant for ridiculous conspiracy theories as well. They've largely been able to pull back from this owing to the fact that the Trump Administration's infamies were so outrageous and numerous that there was plenty of real scandal to cover. I certainly remember the Bush II era though, when it wasn't uncommon to hear the narrative that the administration had invaded Iraq largely for personal gain (remember the Halliburton) and knew full well that their nuclear program was dormant. Indeed, while there was clear evidence of the politicization of intelligence, there was virtually nothing on the diabolical scale that pundits threw out there.

Not to mention the "9/11 was an inside job," or "Bush let 9/11 happen so he could do some war," theories, which had little evidence but wide appeal. Hell, Noam Chomsky got popular on screeds ascribing Manichean evil to the US defense apparatus that would get him laughed out of an undergrad IR seminar. No review of policy maker's memoirs, interviews with principals, or reviews of declassified or leaked documents required. "The US bombed a medical facility in Sudan, and there is no way it was an accident as claimed because it seems suspicious!"

To date no evidence has ever come forward from what would be a major conspiracy involving far more people than could be expected to hold such a secret, while plenty of documentation shows how the botched strike occured, but of your a Chomsky reader this is all evidence of a cover-up.
Rxspence March 05, 2021 at 16:30 #506106
Well I've been set straight, all dems honest, all repubs dishonest.
This is why I do not rely on posts.
I only rely on videos and audios of the actual subjects.
I believe politics and media has become synonymous with organized crime.
Rxspence March 06, 2021 at 13:46 #506555
74 million americans believe the media is lying, because you can not believe what they are saying and vote for Trump.
74 million is the largest number of votes any president has ever gotten,
and yet he lost to the oldest, most cognitively impaired president we have ever had!
a man that has been running for president for forty years and never won a primary because of the scandals throughout his 48 years in office.
I'm guessing that is also a conspiracy theory.
Rxspence May 12, 2021 at 20:00 #535087
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
If you actually work or have closely participated in politics, the idea of shadowy elites who always get their way is pretty laughable. Things are often a mess and generally no one involved is happy.


Thank you for your camouflaged compliment and plausible deniability
Apollodorus May 12, 2021 at 22:13 #535156
Quoting hypericin
Without it, just like religion, this enterprise (The extreme American neofascist corporate oligarchic movement ) would collapse.


Yes, but isn't that itself a conspiracy theory? How do we know that the world is run by "extreme American neofascist corporate oligarchs"? Do they run Communist China too?

Don't forget that Marxism is based on a conspiracy theory that claims that the middle class has conspired to suppress the working class, or in its more modern forms, that there is a conspiracy by whites to suppress blacks, by men to suppress women, by capitalists to suppress communists, by Christians to suppress Muslims, and so it goes on and on. A never-ending spiral of conspiracies. Like a religion, without which the Left's neo-Marxist narrative would definitely collapse.

thewonder May 12, 2021 at 22:56 #535166
Reply to hypericin
As I suffer from Psychosis, an ailment that does engender a certain degree of paranoia and mania, particularly as it relates to the analysis of information, I think that people fail to take into consideration the psychological and sociological factors that play into conspiracy theories.

For starters, people who adhere to them are often socially isolated and alienated, often through little to no fault of their own, and, though there is an odd kind of persecution complex and delusion of heroic grandeur that comes with believing in conspiracy, I think that we ought to be willing to extend a certain degree of the benefit of the doubt to people who usually suffer from mental illness and have been marginalized by that account.

Within various contemporary activist movements, there were any number of conspiracy theories that became enough of a cult phenomenon for most people to note. Some of them were evidently anti-Semitic, some implicitly so, and some not at all, though often characterized as such purely because of that they were conspiracy theories. Though I do think that it did create a serious problem for people to endorse what were ultimately anti-Semitic conspiracies, I found for the general tendency to disseminate things like Kymatica to be relatively benign. When a person has a fairly limited set of information to go on, is fairly isolated from society, and particularly prone to either paranoia or manic episodes, conspiracy theories, though often dizzying, can present a cohesive enough depiction of the world to construct their own interpretation of it, based off of what they haven't considered is entirely suspect evidence. Though unfortunate, I think that this is entirely understandable. Rather than assume that such people are just simply crypto-Fascists or quote unquote insane, I think that it would be better to offer them a clear and succinct depiction of a world that is just simply complex. I, for instance, would recommend that they read Antonio Negri and Michael Hardt's Empire. I would do so because of my own political inclinations, but, for whatever anyone else's are, I would suggest that there is probably a comparable text. This, at least, is what I would recommend for either the Anarchists or Libertarians that I have encountered who had taken up such ideas. Though, as I admittedly do tend to relegate my reading to the libertarian Left, I don't know what the equivalent text for the Right would be, I would bet that there is one.

What is far more troubling to me of the alt-Right is its reliance upon thought-terminating clichés, particularly in the form of internet memes. The general proliferation of these images on a certain former home to Anonymous is not only effective, but also dangerous enough for me to be so inclined to think that Interpol should force the Federal Bureau of Investigation to shut the aforementioned website down, and, as an Anarchist, I am the sort of person who would generally like to avoid the FBI on more or less every given occasion.

From a philosophical perspective, I think that the reliance upon such images should serve as evidence that Hannah Arendt was correct about the banality of evil. It is extraordinarily disheartening, to me, that such a low form of political praxis could be so effective.
deletedmemberZKT May 29, 2021 at 16:05 #543808
They should be angry about the factors actually causing them those circumstances. They already have a populist mindset where they feel like they are cheated by so called “elites” and they are not wrong they are cheated by capitalism. The alt right also panders to alienated white males in their mid 20s who are unemployed or doing a dead-end job, tormented by unrequited love, and isolated from the world outside of their forum; and this sense of personal aimlessness and despair seeps into their views on the world in general. They redirect the pain from that circumstance onto women or people of color instead of the system which actually oppresses them.
James Riley May 29, 2021 at 22:35 #544026
Reply to Zazie Kanwar-Torge

I know an upper (1%) class, northern, married couple, both well educated (but not Liberal Arts) who are off the deep end. I'm also surrounded by rural, ranching, blue collar northern types who are all-in with dummy. A lot of dummy's appeal is simply that he hates the same people they hate. That's it. They will overlook the fact that he's a dishonorable coward and a liar, and a man they would never let baby sit their kids, simply because he trolls the people they hate. Because of all this, they frequent the confirmation bias echo chambers and pick up on all the conspiracy paranoia. The first guy went so far as to admit we both drink our respective Kool aid and we must live with it. He lost site of the notion of not drinking any Kool aid all. Some scary shit. He actually believes there is a cabal that is out to get the likes of him.

The thing that bothers me most, though, is there is an element of the insurgency that is not racist, or nationalist, or fascist, or conspiracy nuts, but who actually believe the Capitalist/Freedom/America vs everyone-else-and-their-slippery-slopes-to-Communism BS. Anyone who is not them is an existential threat. These guys see dummy as a useful idiot and they don't like Republicans any more than Democrats. Some of these people are trained up gray men, doing the real damage, without trashing capital buildings or marching and whatnot. Some are outside, but many are inside. Getting rid of them takes a leader and I'm not sure Joe is up to the task. I hope so, but it's a big ask. We need some hard corps, old-school ass-kickers to shove these people back under the fridge where they belong. Right now all we have is a bunch of law-abiding, patient, "it'll all work out" people who are not seizing the moment.

End rant.