Is the forum a reflection of the world?
Lately there’s been grumbling about the standard of OPs on the forum and debates about bannings. The OP’s that are coming up on the forum are often lazy in thought, incoherent or just lukewarm in content. The OPs that get the most attention are about Trump or racism, where everyone feels okay yelling at each other and calling each other names. (You’d think everyone would have made their point by now). Other than that other posts seem to be about rehashing the same subjects and objections. When someone puts up an OP that’s a bit weak they’re jumped on and demolished quickly, like that’s the only excitement in town. Everyone wants something to talk about but nothing happens; it’s like a becalmed boat.
Sometimes you’ll see an opinion piece in the media asking whether Democracy is dead, if it’s relevant any longer, if it even works? And it’s possible it has run its course, that it functioned well only so long because in the end it created its own founding. (This is not the point of my OP). Sometimes it seems like everything we do and think about is like that. The end of history but not in the way we thought.
What I’m getting at is possibly ennui as a permanent state for us. What’s really new and exciting in our world? pulling down statues, calling each other names, consciously eroding established ideas about how things work, just destroying things out of frustration? How many new subjects can anyone think of for an OP? How many can bring fresh thinking to that OP. Everyone already has their position set, they have their arguments for and against from long experience, they resist the difference, the incoherent or plain weird.
Is the forum just a reflection of the world, that we’ve reached a sort of evolutionary point of weariness without any reason to struggle or make things new? Is there really nothing new to come, is it out there ahead of us or do we have to create it? And what should we create, something that excites us or something that serves us? Do we even know how to create anymore? Has all this questioning and arguing just reduced things to the state of boiled vegetables?
Maybe we need to let go a bit more. Let the weird have a day, drill into what they might be getting at, or give it a bump forward, up a notch so that it opens up the original enquiry to more nuanced and unexpected branches of thought. Maybe it’s okay if the OP goes off topic, maybe that’s a good thing. That’s Darwinian and you may not like it or agree with it, but that’s how things have worked so far. On the other hand you might say it’s brought us to this point I’m referring to.
Comments (88)
Certainly not anything you described. Been happening for a long, long time.
I don't think this question needs to be answered with much detail other than technology and vulnerabilities or in a way that contradicts my point the timeless race between invention and irrelevancy. Naturally theres way more. AI. Genetics. Jeez man. You could go to sleep one night and wake up living in the Odyssey at this point.
Quoting Brett
Your perception of the users of a single philosophy forum (unfortunately?) does not equal a reflection of the the larger world. Do we really want anything new? The new things we have are constantly becoming more of a liability than an asset. We know how to produce what one would pay for. Unfortunately, that requiem yields a very low need for groundbreaking innovation.
Quoting Outlander
What has?
Quoting Outlander
It’s interesting what you took to be “new”; things we produce. A materialist point of view. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s kind of limiting.
Destruction, strife, etc. Through all the actualizations you mentioned.
We produce other items as well. You can pay for an idea in acknowledgement, admiration, and incorporation into ones daily life.
Quoting Outlander
Doesn’t this almost sum up my post, a sort of fatalism that it’s all over. It reeks of ennui.
There are also threads that are very technical that only a select few forum members can understand. Does that bother you? I'm just curious. :smile:
No it doesn’t bother me. That’s how they like to address questions. It is technical but it doesn’t appeal to me. They’re like a group in a dark room trying to turn lead into gold, or the masons; secret hand signals and words.
I bothers me a bit, but I know it's my problem not theirs.
The most annoying threads, in my opinion, are those that never come to any conclusion and go on indefinitely.
Quoting Wheatley
Which is my point. It’s because they have nothing new to say, but they crush some new OP that doesn’t make sense or is worded badly. I understand the demands for clarity, etc. But my OP isn’t just about
the forum, it’s actually looking for a new, stimulating subject or conversation. Chose a word and begin, be artists, be human and get your hands dirty.
You want to the forum and the world to be a bit less dull and boring and more exciting and innovative? I feel you.
I’d wager there have been people say this throughout history.
“We the people...”
That’s a pretty amazing document, conceived and written from scratch.
Quoting praxis
Yes for many, but not all, not those that made a difference.
I put the blame on all the cranky users. (There are a lot of them here unfortunately.)
Quoting Brett
I think it's because we've become more risk adverse. Everyone seems to be afraid to fail. I wonder why?
So, you don’t expect to make a difference?
Quoting praxis
Mmmm, I feel a trick question coming up.
Do I expect to make a difference? I expect myself to face up to the ennui.
Quoting Wheatley
Good point. Why do you think?
Edit: and what is failure?
Quoting Wheatley
Old dogs with no teeth.
Quoting Wheatley
That’s true. But it’s nothing really, we all know that, even if we can’t live it.
Approval; it’s all part of the rules game. That’s why I ask if this forum reflects the world.
Quoting Wheatley
Just get a bigger stick.
Here’s a question then; do elders have anything to give us in the world we now live in?
No forum anywhere represents the world. The internet is a cesspool that attracts the absolute worst people this side of murderers and rapists. What happens in this forum or any other is hopelessly skewed. This site tries to keep the trash out with some higher standards. You want more wide open gates, but as far as I can tell diversity of discussion isnt the mandate, quality is.
That what's all over? Innovation, invention, that "human spirit of ingenuity"?
You can Google (I am unable to list them at present) all the jobs that people once held central to society that no longer exist. The exact same feeling you're describing came and went. Each during a period of absolute unheard of progress and innovation.
I was told once every idea has already been thought of and any unique variation is exactly that- a variation. It's like watching a remake of an old movie. Yeah it's usually terrible. But not always. Especially without a reference point.
I think this is probably why you're missing out on what's new. The exciting advances in science and technology also come from a bunch of people behind closed doors doing what looks to outsiders like incomprehensible magic or nonsense, but then a few decades of that later and I can pull up a live high-resolution view of the entire Earth, as seen from a permanently inhabited spacestation, off a tiny device in my pocket, from almost anywhere. And then talk to it to have someone bring a fully cooked pizza to my house in minutes.
The most interesting discussions that I find here are those technical ones that I can understand, or the "stupider" ones that have participants (or at least onlookers) who I can help bring closer to understanding the technical stuff.
I also have constant hope that maybe I will be one of those lucky people whom someone else can bring closer to understanding technical stuff that's still over my head, but so far that hasn't happened here yet.
Quoting DingoJones
Yes, that’s part of my OP. But it reminds me of that saying; The operation was a success but the patient died.
I tried making the technical stuff more accessible to everyone in my education philosophy thread, but it seems like a dud. :confused:
Also, there is already a Questions subforum.
Logic is consistant. Sense is unambiguous "objectively" using that danger word.
Yes, theoretically once you know all there is to know, there will be no discoveries to be made and so excitement to be had as a result.
I'm not sure what you're asking. In Ancient Greece should I just kick down a door where people are debating sciences and humanities wearing clown makeup and crazy hair with a bow tie and just start throwing pies in peoples faces? Should humanity collective vote to EMP the entire globe every few thousand years or so? You know both ideas just to keep things interesting.
You said something’s been happening for a long, long time. I asked what and you said “Destruction, strife, etc. “.
This was my reply: Doesn’t this almost sum up my post, a sort of fatalism that it’s all over. It reeks of ennui.
And this is your reply: That what's all over? Innovation, invention, that "human spirit of ingenuity"?
But your answer of destruction and strife just confirms my point, that there’s “a sort of fatalism that it’s all over”. The fatalism I’m talking about is what I see and sense in the world. I’m not saying it’s my view. I’m not saying that innovation is over, I’m saying there is a feeling, call it ennui, among people of weariness. Something that the posts on this forum also suggests.
The idea was that it prevented distractions in the original thread. Anybody can ask any question about any topic in philosophy in the educational thread without disturbing the flow of ordinary threads by interrupting them, and asking them for explanations.
Quoting Pfhorrest
It's very linear there. You ask a specific question, you get a specific answer.
Quoting Pfhorrest
Why must it always go back to this? Science has achieved amazing things for us, so has technology. It’s also brought us problems. One of those is the ennui I sense. I’m using the forum as a metaphor for what I sense in the world: the endless, pointless discussions, about what a word means, who said what, what they meant and where they’re wrong. Basically just running on the spot.
Quoting Wheatley
Give it some time. More struggling with ennui; things must happen now or it’s a failure.
Nobody's got the guts. :cool:
I looked at new members. Since the 26th 22 people joined up. I don’t see any of them having made a post. That happens day after day.
And I'm saying it's happened before and will happen again. Perhaps we are in a relatively unique plateau of innovation contrasted to perceived entirety of invention not seen throughout history. Cannot be proven nor disproven.
Quoting Outlander
You’re not being specific enough for me to understand. And if we’ve reached a unique plateau of innovation then why the ennui that, as I think you suggest, we’ve had before?
Back to my question; should old dogs be taken down behind the shed?
A nursing home would be much more humane, but yeah.
Because they have nothing to offer, because they’re a hinderance?
Worse.
What should the role, if there should be, of elders be? To teach, to nurture, to discipline, to instil cultural values, to carry on a tradition, to create stability?
To read difficult long books and explain them to us in simple terms..
Quoting Wheatley
That’s to pass on knowledge already gained. I forgot to include that. What a waste of time each generation or group having to start from scratch. And how neglectful, criminal, if elders don’t do it.
Exactly! Why do we have to read these long and painful books when they already read them years ago?!
Interestingly some generations of elders go silent, like the men who returned from the war and said nothing. They feel they have nothing to pass on.
Quoting Wheatley
I don’t think it’s so bad being asked to read them, but pointing them out helps. But the books are just a metaphor for knowledge passed on. What do we need from elders?
Did they at least pass on their genes?
Quoting Brett
We need their money more than anything else.
Ah, you see the ennui but don’t experience it yourself. That wasn’t clear until now. Good for you.
We tend to talk about the things people are generally talking about. The times are weird; people talk about the times. We talk about the times.
Regarding trust being dead: trust of any authority figure or academic source, yes. Politicians in the political north betrayed the entire world over the last 40 years, they have no adequate response to climate change or increasing inequality (socialism for the rich). That sense of betrayal; everyone realized the emperor had no clothes, so people support those who appear to point it out insofar as they're part of the spectacle. It's not just the forumites who are frustrated rats in transparent cages.
So I take it as hopeful that criticism still exists and that we can shout at each other about it longform, even if it contains no vision of the future. I don't remember a time when the future existed.
I read a book called The Island of Knowledge. I don’t remember the author, but the metaphor throughout the book was that our knowledge is like an island, where the surrounding ocean represents the unknown. As our knowledge grows, the island expands, but so does it’s shore, which is to say the more we learn the more we realize how much there is we don’t know. What do you think?
Also, it’s good to remember that you are essentially a microcosm; one consciousness experiencing a small part of the world and influenced through your particular society or culture. From what I understand, things are quite exciting in the jungles of Papua New Guinea. Perhaps you should move there if you seek excitement :wink:
Most community members of most places on the internet are lurkers. This whole site is like a small longform subreddit.
No idea. Same thing happens on twitch and reddit.
Invisible lurkers > Registered Lurkers > Posters.
No, the forum is not even close to a reflection of the world. The people it attracts are highly specific. I also think that making generalised forum thread is more likely to get posts. You can make some crazy obscure and unique thread but nobody will respond and you'll stop doing it pretty fast.
Quoting TheMadFool
No, clearly not the world, if your assumption is correct. But you cannot know if the posters are from countries like Africa or Asia. Or maybe you referring to the imbalance from your perception of posts here? But let’s assume you’re right; the forum represents part of the world. That world, I’m assuming, is Western, and by that I mean the culture that has developed from Greek origins. I think that contributes to confirming my feelings about this forum as a metaphor for that world (the West), one of ennui and loss of direction. Because that is the world that may have exhausted itself first, or may have jettisoned too many traditions and beliefs along the way. Is it the exhaustion of the postmodern world? Maybe.
So your post has helped me focus on this a little more, which is what I hoped for.
Edit: I should have said continents not countries as pointed out by Wheatley.
Very interesting link (here).
Quoting Pinprick
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. We are no longer “ one consciousness experiencing a small part of the world and influenced through your particular society or culture.” We are exposed to a global culture that has no centre. The COVID virus has raged across the world, but I personally have only lived it through television and the internet. But the culture I live in is loose and uncentered and it’s influence on those around me is less than it once was. In fact I might go so far to say there is no longer a sense of culture. There is something but I’m not sure how to define it.
Quoting Pinprick
Any intelligent person would realise how little they know. But to realise that then one needs to be intelligent. And what makes someone intelligent? Is it information, opinion, experience, exposure to news stories? What would it, should it, be? And who decides what it is, how it’s taught, how it’s passed on, how it’s used?
Quoting Judaka
Well I guess that’s natural selection at work.
Quoting Wheatley
I went there but I don’t get it.
I thought it was related to Africa and Asia. But yes, you’re right.
Don’t overthink it. It was dumb on my part.
I’m thoroughly confused now.
Aren’t Wittgensteinians able to sort out confusing language?
@Banno Apologize for dragging you into this.
I found it funny that you wrote country instead of continent. Did you at least get that part?
Quoting Wheatley
No I didn’t even notice. Slack on my part.
That’s all somewhat true, but I’d argue that there is a big difference between vicariously experiencing “culture” and living it. Regardless of how connected you are to the rest of the world, where you specifically live has a profound effect on your perceptions, opinions, etc. Perhaps you live in a cosmopolitan, multicultural area, but you’re still influenced by your local political system, predominant religion, reward system, education system, etc.
Quoting Brett
I’ll go with knowledge and culture. Culture defines what is important to know, and reinforces actions that acquire knowledge or use it. Therefore it is passed on through memes, history, etc. Knowledge is justified true belief, but also more than that, like knowing how to do something, how to work within a system, etc.
I signed up for an account thinking I was going to start posting - then quickly realized I was in over my head and needed to figure out how I could fit in. It was a year before I posted by first response - and after two years I still have not done an OP. Maybe one of these years . . . :smile:
What @Pfhorrest said. I don't think any of us really know what we're doing. Any confidence displayed on here is just courage (or arrogance/recklessness) in the face of epistemic uncertainty I suspect.
Forums like these need new members.
Questions like is 0,999=1 and the poor guy venturing here after reading Ayn Rand and wishing a discussion about her work is what keeps up these places. Some philosophical questions pop up all the time.
I never underestimate the collective wisdom in PF. From this forum (or was it the predecessor) I got great responses that I have used in real life. I've also gotten really good advice on mathematic literature, which helped me a lot.
Does this reflect the World? Perhaps so much as a small community of more than average educated and informed people who write English can.
Well, that's because this is a "left-leaning forum" - as stated by some of the mods themselves. So, this forum certainly isn't a reflection of the world - only part of it. It's a shame because we do need effective police reform for everyone, but those that are condoning looting, violence, defunding the police and focusing on race are overzealous and overreaching and will hurt the legitimate movement to change how police polices it's citizens.
I think I've made my points, which is why I've moved on to other threads, but even there you'll find ad homs being thrown about, and it turns a viable discussion into a shouting match, or tit-for-tat - the likes of which you find elsewhere on FB, Youtube, Twitter, etc. I think most of the recent bannings were more of a means to curtail some of the sub-par OPs, like you were talking about, and that is perfectly fine. While I think we should be accepting of new-comers and those that don't have a degree in philosophy, we should also limit obvious trolling and fundamentals using the forums as a means to proselytize (not just in religious topics but political ones as well).