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What is beauty

Benj96 October 25, 2021 at 16:12 8350 views 93 comments General Philosophy
You walk into an art gallery and are struck speechless as you pass an artwork on display. You can’t articulate what it is you feel in you but i this piece simply draws you in, it’s mesmerising.

You’re leaving the gallery and a friend has just sent you a song they like. You take a listen. A shiver courses down your spine and and you feel like ever cell, every limb is alive in the flow of the melody.

You get off the bus almost home, you notice an autumn leaf lying humbly on the pavement: it’s delicate veins branching ever smaller as if into infinity, the pure brilliance of its warm colours blending and swirling amongst eachother. Then you look up and see a stunning human being: they smile at you as they pass, their eyes almost piercing through you, their face carved finely as if by a master sculptor, taking your breathe away.

If you hadn’t guess by now this post is about beauty. What is it? And if not what then why is there beauty? What is the difference between something that is beautiful only to a few and something that is beautiful to the vast majority?

Comments (93)

Deleted User October 25, 2021 at 19:48 ¶ #611683
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Caldwell October 25, 2021 at 20:01 ¶ #611691
Quoting Benj96
If you hadn’t guess by now this post is about beauty. What is it?

No it isn't. We tend to think that anything and everything we are 'attracted' to is beauty. So a generic term is beauty, I give you that.

Quoting Benj96
And if not what then why is there beauty? What is the difference between something that is beautiful only to a few and something that is beautiful to the vast majority?

Often we are conditioned to prefer one thing over another by people around us. We don't, of course, notice it, since it's in our inner being now that we are conscious adults. Beauty is the term we give for just about anything that we are attracted to. Because of this conditioning, no effort on our part to examine why we are drawn to something. We just say cause it's beautiful.

We should always try to cultivate that eccentricity in us by analyzing deeply why we are attracted to a particular music artist, to a painting, to the color of autumn leaves, etc. And yes, I do. I tell myself the way he, and not the other, sings and plays the guitar is beautiful and mesmerizing because such and such. I disdain superficial attraction. I also give up on a lot of things I call attractive, after much thought.

Our senses can be in a fooled mode our entire life, not knowing what we truly value. A saying goes 'open' your eyes when you're already wide awake and conscious. This is cause you could actually see things you haven't seen or noticed before.
Tom Storm October 25, 2021 at 20:14 ¶ #611702
Quoting Benj96
You walk into an art gallery and are struck speechless as you pass an artwork on display. You can’t articulate what it is you feel in you but i this piece simply draws you in, it’s mesmerising


I have to say I have never had that experience. I have been struck by extraordinary visual works but never like that. The closest I've come to this is listening to some classical music. Beautiful people... not something that I have ever paid much attention to. I'll be interested to hear what others think.
dimosthenis9 October 25, 2021 at 20:30 ¶ #611715
Reply to Benj96

Whatever gives a happy feeling inside you. That's beauty for me.
Olivier5 October 25, 2021 at 21:59 ¶ #611763
There is a certain freedom in beauty, freedom from logic and obligations and costs. Freedom from anything else really. It comes as a gift, often as a surprise if not an incongruity.

André Gide noted that in contrast with Rodin, whose work “quivers, is restless and expressive; cries out with moving pathos, ... Maillol’s Seated Woman [below in bronze] is simply beautiful. She has no meaning. It is a silent work. Maillol does not proceed from an idea that he then tries to explain in marble. I believe we must go back in history -- we must go way back in history -- to find such complete neglect of everything that is foreign to this simple celebration of beauty.”

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Caldwell October 26, 2021 at 00:11 ¶ #611819
Reply to Olivier5
I agree with Gide. That's beholding.
Outlander October 26, 2021 at 00:29 ¶ #611834
That which either detracts from, balances, dissolves, or perhaps even adjudicates or "makes right" what we call ugly in this life. For most people this is an elegant painting, a well-sculpted statute, or I suppose more relevant today a nice designer phone case or hot chick I guess. For some this is not any of these traditional things. Beauty could be found in a discarded meal tray crawling with maggots and flies, for this shows that all things have purpose and the destruction of the old and no longer usable only helps make room for the new and fresh. Something like that. Right? Somebody help me out here.
Natherton October 26, 2021 at 00:32 ¶ #611839
Reply to tim wood Empirical psychological aesthetics is confronted with an initial logical difficulty analogous to that which confronts empirical objective aesthetics. The latter is unable to decide, among conflicting beauty judgments, what particular things are ‘really’ beautiful, and empirical psychology is unable to decide empirically what are instances of ‘real’ appreciation.

One man gazes with wonder and delight upon the pottery figures offered as prizes of marksmanship at the village fair and is bored in the National Gallery. Another is thrilled by a Titian and revolted by the pottery prizes.

Are the delight of one man in the pottery figure and the other man in the Titian both instances of appreciation of the beautiful? Or is one genuine appreciation and the other spurious? And if so, why?
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 00:59 ¶ #611851
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Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 01:07 ¶ #611854
Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. Some people perceive to be beautiful things that are not, and some fail to perceive the beauty of things that are. That is incompatible with beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Thus the beauty of an object or experience is not in the eye of the beholder anymore than, say, the shape of an object is. (That the object appears square to me, but circular to you, does not mean that the object 'is' square and circular, but merely that at least one of us is getting a false impression).

What if you are in a bad mood when you see a masterpiece such that it elicits no special feelings in you - is it not beautiful at that time? No, you would not say that: you would say that you failed to appreciate its beauty at the time due to the bad mood.

And consider the unappreciated artist, of which the most famous example is Van Gogh. Virtually no one thought Van Gogh's paintings were brilliant masterpieces when he produced them. Did that mean his paintings were rubbish back then, but gradually became brilliant? In that case he was not an underappreciated genius - for at the time he received the appreciation he deserved, namely none as his paintings were awful in most people's eyes. (But they weren't actually awful, were they?)

And what of the artists themselves: do they think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder? No, Van Gogh and the few other artists who recognized that his paintings were great, were perceiving something that others were not. That is certainly how they themselves understood matters. They did not think that Van Gogh paintings were poor to most, but good for them - they thought they were good and that most people were just too dumb to notice.

Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 01:10 ¶ #611857
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Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 01:10 ¶ #611858
Reply to tim wood An attitudinal relation that an object stands in to God. Ask me another.

Now try and address something I argued.
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 01:12 ¶ #611861
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Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 01:14 ¶ #611863
Reply to tim wood I know it - if it is true, that is - by means of ratiocination.

And it means that beauty is subjective - that is, that it is made of certain feelings a person (God) has towards something - but not individually or collectively subjective.

So, beauty is like moral goodness in this respect.

But you're not addressing anything I have argued. I have made a destructive case: I have argued that beauty is 'not' individually or collectively subjective. Do you agree with the arguments I made in support of that claim?

Note, someone could agree with my destructive case, yet disagree with my positive claim about what beauty itself consists of. (A Platonist, for instance, would agree with my negative case, but would argue that beauty is a form that the objects we call beautiful are somehow reminding us of).
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 01:32 ¶ #611872
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Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 01:50 ¶ #611879
Reply to tim wood I don't know what you mean. Beauty does not lie in any old beholder - not in you or me. Beauty lies in one beholder: God.

The feelings by means of which we are aware of the beauty of things, are not themselves constitutive of the beauty of those things.

And beauty is not constituted by the beautiful things themselves - they 'have' beauty, but do not constitute it (which is why 'what is beauty?' is not answered by simply listing all the things that are beautiful).

Though our sensations of beauty are not themselves constitutive of the beauty they give us an awareness of, they could only give us an awareness of beauty if they in some way resembled it. Or so I would argue. And as a sensation resembles another sensation - that is, sensations are like sensations and nothing else - then the beauty of a thing must reside in it standing in a sensational relation to something else. And as minds and only minds can bear sensations, the beauty of a thing must consist in it standing in a sensational relation to a mind.

And as aesthetic reasons conflict with other reasons, that mind must be the mind who is the source of all reasons. And as that mind will be God, beauty consists of a thing standing in a sensational relation to God.

I suspect that we are not in agreement as I would be astonished if that was your view too.
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 02:07 ¶ #611886
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Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 02:11 ¶ #611889
Quoting Olivier5
André Gide noted that in contrast with Rodin, whose work “quivers, is restless and expressive; cries out with moving pathos, ... Maillol’s Seated Woman [below in bronze] is simply beautiful.


Not having a go at you, Oliver, but I don't like the Seated Woman statue at all. I find it ugly. Rodin I prefer but not the way Gide does.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 02:32 ¶ #611905
Reply to tim wood These are not criticisms of anything I've said, but just expressions of scorn. Try engaging with the arguments I have made.

Were Van Gogh's paintings shit when he painted them and good now? Or were they good - indeed, quite brilliant - the whole time?
Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 02:36 ¶ #611909
Quoting Bartricks
Were Van Gogh's paintings shit when he painted them and good now? Or were they good - indeed, quite brilliant - the whole time?


One answer to this is that they are neither good nor bad. They are whatever the art market a critical consensus decides which varies over time.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 02:39 ¶ #611913
Reply to Tom Storm That's a contradiction: if the art market critical consensus is what constitutively determines what is or isn't good or bad art-wise, then Van Gogh's were rubbish when he painted them and are stupendously good now. Which is clearly false: they were stupendously good when he painted them and they are stupendously good now, it is just that now they are being recognized to be.
Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 02:43 ¶ #611918
Quoting Bartricks
if the art market critical consensus is what constitutively determines what is or isn't good or bad art-wise, then Van Gogh's were rubbish when he painted them and are stupendously good now.


The art market doesn't really hold coherent ideas (In the 1980's I worked for a dealer who traded with Christies and Sotheby's). Things come in and out of fashion without good reason. And ironically those who purchase the works (Warhol or Van Gogh doesn't matter) often have no aesthetic interest in them. They are investment pieces which also drives the market up.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 02:49 ¶ #611921
Reply to Tom Storm Quoting Tom Storm
The art market doesn't really hold coherent ideas (In the 1980's I worked for a dealer who traded with Christies and Sotheby's). Things come in and out of fashion without good reason. And ironically those who purchase the works (Warhol or Van Gogh doesn't matter) often have no aesthetic interest in them. They are investment pieces which also drives the market up.


Yes, I am sure that's correct about some collectors. There are, I am sure, all manner of financial schemes behind a lot of what goes on in the art market, just as in the stock and currency markets. Indeed, a Van Gogh may no doubt be viewed by some as just a conveniently big banknote.

But my point is that whether a Van Gogh is beautiful or not is not in the gift of the art market or any particular one of us. There's the value that we place on a Van Gogh, and then there's the aesthetic value that it actually possesses. And what determines the latter is not the former.
Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 03:06 ¶ #611935
Reply to Bartricks Yes, I can't disagree with that.
Caldwell October 26, 2021 at 03:10 ¶ #611938
Quoting Bartricks
Some people perceive to be beautiful things that are not, and some fail to perceive the beauty of things that are.

My former professor in art failed to perceive the beauty of the Mona Lisa painting when she saw it in person. She wasn't impressed.
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 03:18 ¶ #611941
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Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 03:26 ¶ #611943
Reply to tim wood Can God make a shoe he can't fit in?
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 03:29 ¶ #611944
Reply to Caldwell Quoting Caldwell
My former professor in art failed to perceive the beauty of the Mona Lisa painting when she saw it in person. She wasn't impressed.


Yes, there is clearly something wrong with her.
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 06:34 ¶ #612010
Quoting Caldwell
That's beholding.


The work is entitled Méditérannée. She's at the beach. Her body slightly sunken in the sand, she's protecting her eyes from the sun... And yet she looks eternal, almost prehistoric.
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 06:42 ¶ #612013
Quoting Tom Storm
Rodin I prefer


You cannot judge a sculpture based on a photo. Best to touch it. This said, I never really liked Rodin, too artificial, too forceful for my taste.
Jamal October 26, 2021 at 06:44 ¶ #612014
Quoting Caldwell
My former professor in art failed to perceive the beauty of the Mona Lisa painting when she saw it in person. She wasn't impressed.


Quoting Bartricks
Yes, there is clearly something wrong with her.


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GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 06:45 ¶ #612015
Quoting Bartricks
Yes, there is clearly something wrong with her.


Clearly, there is something wrong with you. When I see Mona, the only thing I want is to run away as fast as possible and release a dump. She is ugly as hell. Imagine I would find her in my bed, giving me that same grin when she makes me... Brrrrrrr!

Beauty lies in my dog jumping out of a moonlit blanket of mist. Dew glistening thousand colored in the morning autumn sun, trying to touch it and realizing it glistens from fungi on a pile of dogshit.
TheMadFool October 26, 2021 at 06:53 ¶ #612017
Quoting Bartricks
Yes, there is clearly something wrong with her.


Interesting! In what sense, may I ask, is something wrong with the Mona Lisa?
Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 07:09 ¶ #612022
Reply to Olivier5 Of course. I've seen some Rodins. But I am not a great enthusiast of art. I like Turner and the odd Matisse. But mostly I like Japanese, Pre-Columbian and Ancient Egyptian art and also Greek, Roman and Etruscan pottery. I like the power of these pieces but beauty has never been the quest. A given work has to give me thrill, I need to feel a sense of vitality or serenity coming from it.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 07:39 ¶ #612028
Reply to TheMadFool

I was thinking exactly the same! :lol:
TheMadFool October 26, 2021 at 07:40 ¶ #612029
Quoting GraveItty
I was thinking exactly the same!


Soulmate!
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 07:43 ¶ #612032
Is there a difference between seeing a painting in person, or from a picture book?
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 09:01 ¶ #612049
Quoting Tom Storm
beauty has never been the quest. A given work has to give me thrill, I need to feel a sense of vitality or serenity coming from it.


And that -- I suggest -- is precisely what people call beauty.
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 09:02 ¶ #612050
Reply to GraveItty Yes there is, obviously. The canvas is in 3d most of times, and all the colors and nuances cannot be reproduced on screen or paper.
Tom Storm October 26, 2021 at 09:04 ¶ #612051
Quoting Olivier5
And that -- I suggest -- is precisely what people call beauty.


OK
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 09:08 ¶ #612053
Quoting Olivier5
Yes there is, obviously. The canvas is in 3d most of times, and all the colors and nuances cannot be reproduced on screen.
now


I don't mean the physical difference. I know how dear Mona looks like without ever having seen the painting myself. I can't imagine bursting into tears when seeing it for real. Maybe tears of boredom, as sprang up when seeing the de nachtwacht and de staalmeesters, for example. Though some of his paintings impressed me, like the view on the Amstel. But they did so when looking in a book.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 09:10 ¶ #612054
Quoting Olivier5
And that -- I suggest -- is precisely what people call beauty.


It isn't. An ugly scene can do just the same. Even more maybe.
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 09:11 ¶ #612055
Reply to GraveItty The difference it makes to your own personal aesthetic emotions depends on many many things including how receptive you are to certain styles. But in practice, a good rule of thumb is that the reproduction of a work of art will give you less than the original.
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 09:12 ¶ #612056
Quoting GraveItty
An ugly scene can do just the same. Even more maybe.


Can you give an example?
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 09:22 ¶ #612061
Quoting Olivier5
The difference it makes to your own personal aesthetic emotions depends on many many things including how receptive you are to certain styles


Sitting in a chair, beneath a soft-toned lamp, makes me appreciate van Gogh more than looking at his paintings in the museum.

Quoting Olivier5
Can you give an example?


I get more vitality from looking at ugly scenes like some dadaists show us. Or de Koninck. These big magic blacks give me bright shining light. Serenety even. The are not beauty, in my eyes. Beauty is superfluous.

Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 09:36 ¶ #612068
Reply to TheMadFool The professor, obviously. The mona lisa is just fine
Olivier5 October 26, 2021 at 09:40 ¶ #612070
Quoting GraveItty
Beauty is superfluous.


Unless you can see the beauty of ugliness. There is a passage about that in Heinlein's Stranger in Strange Land, where an alien comes to earth and tries to understand human civilisations. One of the things puzzling him is human art, and how it can depict ugly scenes. The examples are drawn from sculpture, including Rodin:

[I]A great artist—a master—and that is what Auguste Rodin was—can look at an old woman, portray her exactly as she is . . . and force the viewer to see the pretty girl she used to be . . . and more than that, he can make anyone with the sensitivity of an armadillo, or even you, see that this lovely young girl is still alive, not old and ugly at all, but simply prisoned inside her ruined body. He can make you feel the quiet, endless tragedy that there was never a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in her heart . . . no matter what the merciless hours have done to her.[/i]

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(Celle qui fut) la Belle Heaumière, by Rodin.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 09:53 ¶ #612072
Reply to GraveItty You're a philistine. Or you haven't actually seen it.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 09:57 ¶ #612073
Beautifull sculpture. Looks like the thinker has done a bit too much thinking.

It's a thin line between beauty and ugliness. Maybe there is not even a line at all. It's all in the eyes and ears or nose of the beholder though. You can construct abstract schemes for explaining it, like I read in a thread here about art, but this merely relocates both beauty and ugliness. Besides the formally pleasing aspects of an artwork, there are of course many other ones.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:01 ¶ #612075
Quoting Bartricks
You're a philistine. Or you haven't actually seen it.


You mean Mona? No, I haven't actually seen her. And luckily. Spared me money for the entrance ticket.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 10:02 ¶ #612078
Reply to GraveItty Ah, well there you go. I have. And there aren't words to describe it.

Velasquez's portrait of pope innocent X is another in the same league.

If you see them and are unmoved, then you're just dead inside.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:08 ¶ #612080
Quoting Bartricks
Ah, well there you go. I have. And there aren't words to describe it.
now


I have them. If I see the painting (be it for real or not, I'm not a fetishist) I get the feeling of giving her a wake-up slam in the face, to make her stop giving me that double smile. Leonardo must have had a hard time with that lady, self-assured serenity. So it does provoke a feeling in me.

Yohan October 26, 2021 at 10:09 ¶ #612082
Beauty is symmetrical relationship. A harmony of complimentary opposites.

As an aside, I think the "big picture" "truth" of life is also a harmony of opposites. I.E Yin Yang

This may be the source of John Keats saying “Beauty is truth–truth beauty

And R Buckminster Fuller: "When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty but when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 10:10 ¶ #612083
Reply to GraveItty Like I say, a philistine.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:14 ¶ #612085
Quoting Yohan
Beauty is symmetrical relationship. A harmony of complimentary opposites.


How does this explain the beauty of my dog jumping up out of a dark ultramarine moonlit blanket of low mist?
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:15 ¶ #612086
Quoting Yohan
And R Buckminster Fuller: "When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty but when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.


I have exactly the opposite attitude.
Yohan October 26, 2021 at 10:33 ¶ #612099
Quoting GraveItty
I have exactly the opposite attitude.

And I bet its a complimentary opposite, if we examined both attitudes in the proper context.
Yohan October 26, 2021 at 10:36 ¶ #612103
Quoting GraveItty
How does this explain the beauty of my dog jumping up out of a dark ultramarine moonlit blanket of low mist?

To me you are asking "where is the symmetry". I assume you are relating the experience to something in your memory, perhaps subconscious memory, which is creating a symmetry.

Edit: To me the imagine evokes a balance between gravitas and levity.

Edit: However, I do agree that the perception of symmetry, or the feeling/state it evokes aesthetically as the experience of beauty in a person, is subjective. So my definition was too simplistic.
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:41 ¶ #612109
Quoting Yohan
And I bet its a complimentary opposite, if we examined both attitudes in the proper context.


It's not a complementary opposite. It's no complement at all. It's the lacking of symmetry or its complement. If we examine symmetry and it's complement in the proper context than we end up in math, which can have beauty (symmetry is fashion in physics). But the most beautiful math is in which both are not present. Now you can call this a complement again, but then you are stuck in the symmetry-asymmetry dichotomy.
Yohan October 26, 2021 at 10:45 ¶ #612112
Quoting GraveItty
But the most beautiful math is in which both are not present. Now you can call this a complement again, but then you are stuck in the symmetry-asymmetry dichotomy.

I'm not sure what you are saying. The most beautiful math is when there is neither symmetry no asymmetry?
GraveItty October 26, 2021 at 10:48 ¶ #612117
Quoting Yohan
I'm not sure what you are saying. The most beautiful math is when there is neither symmetry no asymmetry?


Precisely!

Yohan October 26, 2021 at 11:01 ¶ #612127
Quoting GraveItty
Precisely!

Sounds interesting!

I can't imagine how math, or anything, can lack both symmetry and asymmetry. If something lacks symmetry doesn't that mean is asymmetrical?

And isn't math all about the symmetry of numbers, loosely speaking?
the quality of being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis.
synonyms: regularity, evenness, uniformity, equilibrium, consistency, congruity, conformity, agreement, correspondence, orderliness, equality

The law of non-contradiction, in the positive, could be the law of agreement. In other words, the law of symmetry.
Deleted User October 26, 2021 at 16:34 ¶ #612263
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Caldwell October 26, 2021 at 19:37 ¶ #612367
Quoting Bartricks
Yes, there is clearly something wrong with her.

Yet she loved Piet Mondrian's Apple Tree in Bloom or Flowering Apple Tree. (I do too)
Caldwell October 26, 2021 at 19:41 ¶ #612368
Quoting Olivier5
The work is entitled Méditérannée. She's at the beach. Her body slightly sunken in the sand, she's protecting her eyes from the sun... And yet she looks eternal, almost prehistoric.

Good caption. Thanks.
Caldwell October 26, 2021 at 19:45 ¶ #612371
Quoting Bartricks
?TheMadFool
The professor, obviously. The mona lisa is just fine

Yeah, I was reading others' posts in response to your post to me "there is clearly something wrong with her". I got your reference point without missing a beat. But then I read the others' responses -- humor jumped on them, I guess.

bongo fury October 26, 2021 at 20:32 ¶ #612406
Beauty is the red herring of aesthetics. Metaphorical use of a word for high socio-sexual status would lend power to any propaganda of recommendation: see this, eat that, use the other.

It's natural to confuse this propaganda purpose with the aesthetic purpose of the recommended art. Especially when so much art happens to refer to (e.g. depict) people of high status.
Bartricks October 26, 2021 at 23:31 ¶ #612508
Reply to Caldwell Quoting Caldwell
Yet she loved Piet Mondrian's Apple Tree in Bloom or Flowering Apple Tree. (I do too)


I prefer the red tree, but though clearly not entirely insensitive to the aesthetic aspect to reality, she's not tracking it particularly well if she's unmoved by the mona lisa but is in love with a Mondrian. That painting is good, no question - but it's not in the same league as the mona lisa.

Natherton October 28, 2021 at 01:34 ¶ #613210
Reply to bongo fury The existence of faultless aesthetic disagreements, even given the arguments that often accompany such disputes, supports a subjectivist and relativist position in regard to aesthetic value, one that recognizes ultimate differences in taste. But if the existence of differences in taste at every level of critical sophistication implies a subjectivist and relativist position in regard to aesthetic value and the lack of aesthetic principles of the most important kind, how can we claim that the taste of some people is better than that of others? Must the relativist say that it is all a matter of what particular individuals prefer, of what subjective value they find in response to various works? If so, there would be an air of paradox, if not a genuine paradox. For, as noted, our very concept of taste includes the idea that there is both good and bad taste, that some people have better taste than others. How, then, can the appeal to taste show this to be false?
Caldwell October 28, 2021 at 01:58 ¶ #613222
Quoting Bartricks
if she's unmoved by the mona lisa but is in love with a Mondrian.

:) funny. To me "in love" isn't the same as "she/he loves". One can love someone or something, but not in love with it. Just my thoughts.
Bartricks October 28, 2021 at 02:02 ¶ #613223
Reply to Caldwell How? If you love something, you are in love with it, surely?
Caldwell October 28, 2021 at 02:05 ¶ #613224
Reply to Bartricks If you love the flowers in the garden, are you also in love with them? Not sure.
You are only in love briefly, but you love forever. Hmm, don't know.
Bartricks October 28, 2021 at 02:14 ¶ #613229
Reply to Caldwell Quoting Caldwell
If you love the flowers in the garden, are you also in love with them?


Yes, I think so. Doesn't saying you're in love with something or someone or some appearance or whatever just mean the same as saying that you love that person, or thing, or appearance, or whatever?

If I say "I love x" then I am describing an attitude I have towards x. If I say "I am in love with x" then I am describing my situation in the attitudinal relation that i have towards x. That seems to be the only difference. Yet if I have a loving attitude towards x, then I am in the situation in the attitudinal relation that I have towards x that "I am in love with x" describes.

Clinton cards have yet to use any of my greeting card messages.
Antony Nickles October 28, 2021 at 02:57 ¶ #613248
Reply to Benj96 We've taken up the idea of beauty in an OP on whether there is an objective aspect of aesthetics.

In that thread I presented Kant's description of our judgement of what he terms the Beautiful--that it allows for rational discussion (apart from just personal feelings or value judgments, etc.) through the criteria internal to the art--its form.

One's personal experience or sensation is what Kant calls the Pleasant--an experience that it is nice (say when you look at it), or whatever personal "feelings" you have. Kant also allows that a piece of art can have good/bad "value" for us (popularity; taste). The Beautiful is focused on the form of the art, say, the way a story is told (think Northrup Frye's Modes and Genres); or the possibilities of the camera, the method, processes, framing, etc. in photography.

Part of the rationality is that the critic is making a claim (with evidence and rationale) in what Kant calls a universal voice--on behalf of everyone for others to accept or discuss. Even though the outcome is not predetermined to be an absolute, certain conclusion (or even resolved)--the goal, and the truth of the beauty of the work, is to get you to see for yourself what I see along the terms of the form of the art.

From Kant's 3rd Critique:

“As regards the Pleasant every one is content that his judgement, which he bases upon private feeling, and by which he says of an object that it pleases him, should be limited merely to his own person” Sec. 7.

“[The Beautiful] is not what gratifies in sensation but what pleases by means of its form... [that] is... the only [element] of these representations which admits with certainty of universal communicability” Sec. 10.

“[ B ]ut if he gives out anything as beautiful, he supposes in others the same satisfaction—he judges not merely for himself, but for every one... which can make a rightful claim upon every one’s assent. ...the beautiful undertakes or lays claim to [the universal].” Sec 6.
Caldwell October 28, 2021 at 03:13 ¶ #613254
Reply to Bartricks
Okay, thank you. I believe you.

Clinton cards?
GraveItty October 28, 2021 at 07:55 ¶ #613319
There is an objective aspect of beauty. Objects can be beautiful. Objects can be ugly. I never understood why in aesthetics beauty has the upper hand. Isn't ugliness just as beautiful? Is beauty more difficult to create? Is ugliness a kind of taboo? Almost no one admits he finds a person ugly. And ugly people can be beautiful! Is there an aesthetics of the ugly? Why does one prefer beauty over ugliness? One can give symmetry or formal, mathematical reasons, but in my opinion these are insufficient. Is beauty subject to fashion? It certainly is. As such, it can be objective and a group of people will agree on it. Is an ugly person objectively ugly? Do all agree? What if I find that person beautiful? Will she be beautiful then. Of course, though others might agree and call my taste an objective failure.
GraveItty October 28, 2021 at 08:04 ¶ #613325
Quoting Bartricks
Doesn't saying you're in love with something or someone or some appearance or whatever just mean the same as saying that you love that person, or thing, or appearance, or whatever?


Obviously not. I truly are not in love with the conceptual works of Mondriaan or Escher. However I like them or pleasing they are to see. Sometimes I can hate them though, for their being bound to the purely formal, of which Mondriaan (or Rietvelt and van der Lek)) is the ultimate example. Reducing man and wife to two perpendicular lines placed perpendicular to the painting's frame.... what a farce! And the frame has to be hung up with a corner pointing down. How ingenious. Two lines perpendiculary driven in a corner. Was the man painting his marriage?
Varde October 28, 2021 at 09:52 ¶ #613361
A worker can be considered beautiful by the manager of a company, but beauty crosses work and play, meaning that the worker, in obsession with a different beauty, may become less beautiful to the manager. There is risk.

I regard beauty is good for all but possibly imbalanced.

Beauty is something to do with obsession and infatuation when imbalanced; can be beneficent.
Olivier5 October 28, 2021 at 10:36 ¶ #613395
Reply to tim wood I meant to respond to this sooner, but forgot.

Quoting tim wood
1) Of course I can. Why can I not?

You can also judge a pudding by its look. However, the real proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Quoting tim wood
the Riaci bronzes

Yes, you cannot touch those of course, too old and fragile. But to come back to contemporary artists like Rodin or Maillol, you can touch their bronzes without posing any risk to their work.

Maillol's sculptures are what we would call today "sexualized": beauty for him was also carnal. E.g. tits are typically erected. There are a few Maillol bronzes in the Tuileries garden in Paris, and people touch them all the time. Some body parts more than others, though, just like your husky... :-)

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Tom Storm October 28, 2021 at 10:46 ¶ #613401
Reply to Olivier5 Well I haven't rubbed up against this bronze either, but I don't find it attractive.

GraveItty October 28, 2021 at 11:31 ¶ #613419
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Olivier5 October 28, 2021 at 11:57 ¶ #613435
Quoting Tom Storm
I don't find it attractive.


As I'm sure has been said many times already on this thread, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I find the 'Flore' statue very attractive. The point was that these bronzes are there for the touching, that touching a sculpture is not out of place (unless it can damage it of course), but is in fact the best way to enjoy and literally grasp a sculpture.
Olivier5 October 28, 2021 at 12:07 ¶ #613445
Quoting tim wood
the Riaci bronzes


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I like sushi October 28, 2021 at 12:19 ¶ #613448
Beauty outstretches logic.
boagie October 30, 2021 at 22:18 ¶ #614717
Beauty is the perfection or near perfection of form and function. When form is violated one has a monstrosity and if the function has no subject, not even to serve the beauty of form, again one has a monstrosity. One might say though, that beauty for consciousness severs as its own function, for only for consciousness is there beauty.
DecheleSchilder October 30, 2021 at 22:31 ¶ #614730
Quoting boagie
Beauty is the perfection or near perfection of form and function.


Question remains: what is perfection? What is perfect? One man's perfection is the other's worst nightmare.
boagie October 30, 2021 at 23:12 ¶ #614762



















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Beauty you might say is the relational make up of a particular form, species of object. The degree this relational form is violated is the degree the object approaches non-being, a monserosity of form and/or function is not beautiful and will not long be. It is first a conscious evaluation, in the absence of consciousness of course there is nothing. The healthier the being/object the more beautiful it is.
Agent Smith December 25, 2021 at 07:49 ¶ #634719
Jack Nicholson:What's beautiful is all that counts, pal. That's ALL that counts.
Tom Storm December 25, 2021 at 07:52 ¶ #634721
Jack Nicholson:What's beautiful is all that counts, pal. That's ALL that counts.


What Nicholson should have said.

"What counts as beautiful, Pal? That's ALL that counts. "
Natherton May 24, 2022 at 01:27 ¶ #699968
Reply to Olivier5 Reply to Tom Storm Do you believe that there is a hedonically ideal set of propensities for aesthetic pleasure to which all should aspire, and that this sets the standard for resolving disputes about taste?

In other words, do you believe in ‘true judges’ whose sensibilities are perfectly calibrated for the maximization of aesthetic pleasure, such that their hypothetical joint verdict on matters of aesthetic value fixes the aesthetic facts?
Jackson May 24, 2022 at 02:06 ¶ #699979
What does beauty have to do with art? I've been a painter (artist) over 35 years and don't know why some obsess over beauty.
Tom Storm May 24, 2022 at 02:40 ¶ #699993
Quoting Natherton
Do you believe that there is a hedonically ideal set of propensities for aesthetic pleasure to which all should aspire, and that this sets the standard for resolving disputes about taste?


No. But I'm willing to be convinced if there were good evidence.


Quoting Natherton
whose sensibilities are perfectly calibrated for the maximization of aesthetic pleasure,


Tease that out. Not sure what it means or how it would work. And it sounds like a fancy language for the old fashioned idea of 'good taste'.
Agent Smith May 24, 2022 at 08:18 ¶ #700075
Beauty per se is an attractive force on its own, delinked as it were from the usual qualities that are associated with it (good & truth). We couldn't have come this far if that were not the case; later, in our evolutionary history, these qualities separated from each other, they came into their own so to speak, became independent of each other, and hence the predicament we find ourselves in - the fragmentation, the dismantling, of our psyche was inevitable, we're all, maybe not all, :broken:, [s]hanged, drawn, and[/s] quartered; behold brethren, our brothers and sisters, in pieces! :snicker:

Lucy, a gorgeous gal!