Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology
I was inspired by some recent discussions on the forum regarding independent existence and wanted to see what other philosophy might be germane. Starting with using basic reason, physicist Paul Davies writes (from The Mind of God/The Mystery at the End of the Universe):
[i]It may seem as if the only alternatives are an infinite tower of turtles or the existence of an ultimate super turtle, the explanation for which lies within itself [mathematics/logical necessity/Ontological argument]. …Wheeler rejects completely the notion of eternal laws: The laws of physics cannot have existed from everlasting to everlasting. They must have come into being at the big bang. So, rather than appeal to timeless transcendent laws to bring the universe into being, Wheeler prefers …[PAP].
…. arrangements are founded on the assumption of human rationality: that it is legitimate to seek “explainations” for things, and that we truly understand something only when it is explained. Yet it has to be admitted that our concept of rational explanation probably derives from our observations of the world and our evolutionary inheritance. Is it clear that this provides adequate guidance when we are tangling with ultimate questions? Might it not be the case that the reason for existence has no explanation in the usual sense? This does not mean the universe is absurd or meaningless, only that an understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought.[/i]
With that, I was thinking about what transcends human thought, and how the notion of transcendence itself (Kant/Schop transcendental idealism) implies some ‘sense’ (pardon the pun) or conception of independent existence, much like how some physicist’s think about the laws of physics & nature (unchanging mathematical truths) existing independent of the human mind (?). I think Platonism also applies here... .
And also, much like the analogy of temporal time presumably starting at the big bang, and eternal time existing in eternity where at the speed of light time ceases to exist. And in theory a novel non-material consciousness has entered eternity as time is now infinite. (The past, present and future are all one at the speed of light.) Then, I thought about Schop’s the World as Will philosophy and how our conscious will (to live) itself, cannot be explained physically (versus Darwinian instinct).
Since there are other theories and philosophy that might be able to offer explanations for similar phenomena or questions that even hint to metaphysics and the nature of reality, I analogized to the foregoing comments about the limits of human reason, and wondered what the significance or implications of Glossolalia (speak-in-tongues) might be (even though it comes across as nonsense).
Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? What kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?
Metaphorically, maybe Glossolalia is a kind of euphemism or cosmological language for some notion of turtle-talk :razz: I already see some paradox relative to human thinking and the whole idea of logically possible worlds and Multiverse theories, but would like to get some other free-form thoughts on the matter. I suppose some things in life are no less absurd than paradox itself but am not sure. .. .
[i]It may seem as if the only alternatives are an infinite tower of turtles or the existence of an ultimate super turtle, the explanation for which lies within itself [mathematics/logical necessity/Ontological argument]. …Wheeler rejects completely the notion of eternal laws: The laws of physics cannot have existed from everlasting to everlasting. They must have come into being at the big bang. So, rather than appeal to timeless transcendent laws to bring the universe into being, Wheeler prefers …[PAP].
…. arrangements are founded on the assumption of human rationality: that it is legitimate to seek “explainations” for things, and that we truly understand something only when it is explained. Yet it has to be admitted that our concept of rational explanation probably derives from our observations of the world and our evolutionary inheritance. Is it clear that this provides adequate guidance when we are tangling with ultimate questions? Might it not be the case that the reason for existence has no explanation in the usual sense? This does not mean the universe is absurd or meaningless, only that an understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought.[/i]
With that, I was thinking about what transcends human thought, and how the notion of transcendence itself (Kant/Schop transcendental idealism) implies some ‘sense’ (pardon the pun) or conception of independent existence, much like how some physicist’s think about the laws of physics & nature (unchanging mathematical truths) existing independent of the human mind (?). I think Platonism also applies here... .
And also, much like the analogy of temporal time presumably starting at the big bang, and eternal time existing in eternity where at the speed of light time ceases to exist. And in theory a novel non-material consciousness has entered eternity as time is now infinite. (The past, present and future are all one at the speed of light.) Then, I thought about Schop’s the World as Will philosophy and how our conscious will (to live) itself, cannot be explained physically (versus Darwinian instinct).
Since there are other theories and philosophy that might be able to offer explanations for similar phenomena or questions that even hint to metaphysics and the nature of reality, I analogized to the foregoing comments about the limits of human reason, and wondered what the significance or implications of Glossolalia (speak-in-tongues) might be (even though it comes across as nonsense).
Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? What kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?
Metaphorically, maybe Glossolalia is a kind of euphemism or cosmological language for some notion of turtle-talk :razz: I already see some paradox relative to human thinking and the whole idea of logically possible worlds and Multiverse theories, but would like to get some other free-form thoughts on the matter. I suppose some things in life are no less absurd than paradox itself but am not sure. .. .
Comments (41)
That can't be right. Since truth ranges only over propositions, poetry can only be the best expression.
Read the post again.
You should see your error of comprehension.
Your post seems to be agreeing and disagreeing with me.
You misunderstood the implication of my post.
I didn't say truth cannot be expressed by normal speech.
So I don't see what your post really refers to?
Well, perhaps we might start by you explaining "supra logical speech"...? If logic is about tracking the path of truth through language, and yet supra-logical speech is better at expressing truth, w ehad best find out what it is.
So what was your original objection before we proceed?
Poetry doesn't rest on propositions. Truth ranges over propositions. Whatever poetry expresses, it's perhaps not propositional truth, since that would better be stated in propositions. Similarly, whatever supra-logical speech is, does it range over propositions or not?
You may regard the poetry I am talking about as axiomatic or desire-expressive. Ditto supra-logical speech.
To think that truth is only propositional is the entire blunder of academic philosophy and science.
Intuitive,non discursive truth is expressed.
Beyond Wittgensteins silence,to expressing the contents of what he dared not speak.
SO, what is "supra-logical speech"?
Shown and stated. That's the rub and crux.
Supra logical speech is that which is intuitively true and expressed.
SO what's that?
Your very fond of using pain as an example.
You intuitively know your tooth is in pain.
Not so much. Having a toothache is not what I would call an intuition.
For example, an intuition might be mistaken; but not a toothache.
And if knowledge must be justified, then what is it that justifies my knowing I have a toothache...?
That's just the way you like to parse things.
Who says knowledge must be always justified. My pain is certain.
So do you know that you are in pain in the same sort of way you know Paris is in France?
Both are truths to me.
Just said so.
So by "Known" you mean "true to me"?
Most folk might rather say that the things they think are true are their beliefs, and admit that at least some of the things they think are true might not be.
Wouldn't it be better to say that there are things you believe to be true, but that sometimes you believe things that are not true?
No.
How to end a conversation.
Not really a conversation.
Your attempt at a monologue really.
Yep. Your own bullshit.
:up: And vapid gullibility.
I attended a gathering of Pentecostals quite some time ago. As the meeting progressed, people seemed to become more and more excited, and eventually some of them began what I would describe as singing--making a kind of ululation or ebullition. They didn't speak as one normally would speak a language. They didn't, for example, do something similar to speaking Latin or Greek or Italian, suddenly, in the midst of a group of English speakers. Thoughtfully, someone would then "translate" the burbling or fluting sound into English. It would have something to do with Jesus.
A kind of tension preceded the singing. I don't know if anyone here has been in a crowd of people who suddenly start rioting, but the feeling of tension was similar if less threatening. My guess would be glossolalia is the result of strong excitement or emotion.
The times I've witnessed it, it did not sound like language. It struck me as forced.
A related idea is the idea of channeling. I have a friend who is a professional artist, and she is does a lot of religious art. She told me that when she is painting and doing other artwork, she sees herself as channeling the Holy Spirit. However, I am aware that many religious people and non religious people are very sceptical of the idea of channeling. From the more traditional approach, it can be queried what entities is one channelling, and are they good or evil? Skeptics, on the other hand, often dismiss the process as being complete nonsense. The way in which I probably see it is more in connection with Jung's idea of active imagination, in which a person is getting in touch with aspects beyond the persona, and connecting with aspects such as those from the collective unconscious.
Probably so that the Devil cannot understand what's being said.
And I hereby bid 'Amen' to my old friend Amen.
I used to be religious, and thought my experience of "creative flow" was something akin to the Holy Spirit moving in me. I've since lost that religious perspective, but would not equate that experience with glossolalia. I've seen Glossolalia happen too, and think of it more in terms of a mania; there is certainly something happening, as @Ciceronianus the White illustrated, of a riotous nature. It's certainly not epileptic or vapidly gullible as all stars such as @Banno and @180 Proof like to assume (presumably out of fear of the unknown). It seems to be more akin to being swept up in a herd environment and momentarily losing one's sense of individuality; almost a momentary psychotic break.
"Creative flow", on the other hand is distinctly different from glossolalia, in my view. As an artist myself, I tend to become less and less interested in whatever the mechanics may or may not be behind creative flow. I don't care about whatever nomenclature is used to attempt to set the experience in resin. The "unconscious" feels the closest to my own experience, in that I find myself following some sort of bread crumb trail that feels (experientially) outside of myself (like that text formatting @180 Proof? :razz: ). I'm not dogmatic enough at this point in my life to label it "brain chemistry", the "collective unconscious", or "the Holy Spirit". Whatever it is, it's something not normally present in every day "non-creative" life that does seem to interject when I'm in the process of trying to create something. I've even gone so far as to set up rules for myself that I think I have to follow in order to fall into "flow", only to realize later that there are no rules; if a set of circumstances brought great creative results at one point in time, the only thing maintaining those circumstances as necessary is my own thinking that they are so. So I can wrench the "flow" of my creative thinking out of that particular vein and willfully place it in a new vein, and see if any new creative "flow" begins. Sorry for the ramble.
Communication, language one, consists of the following pairs,
1. Speak (transmission) - Listen (reception)
2. Write (transmission) - Read (reception)
An intriguing aspect of the issue is that glossolalia/grapholalia both can't be distinguished from cryptography (coded information) - in both cases, we have on our hands a set of symbols (spoken/written) the listener/reader can't understand. This could be one of the reasons why people have devoted quite a lot of time and energy trying to decipher the Voynich manuscript and the Rohonc codex. Unbeknownst to them, the large number of never-before-seen symbols may simply be in want of a referent. In some sense, glossolalia/grapholalia may simply be linguistic atavism (reenactment of the very first steps humans took in the language department).
What excites me, what I find intriguing, is are there referents that haven't been assigned a symbol [words (written/spoken)]? How much of the universe have we explored? The furthest a usable man-made object has ever been is the Voyager spacecraft (launched 1977) and after 44 years and counting it hasn't even left the solar system. Also let's not forget we haven't explored the oceans in any meaningful way. I'm sure there's a lot we don't know and if these unknowns are to be part of a productive discussion, the unkown would require their own preferrably unique symbols. Glossolalia/grapholalia seems like the first port of call.
I guess it all boils down to ignorance - the unknown, incomprehensible words of glossolalia & grapholalia reflect the state of our knowledge, a mere drop in the ocean of what is knowable. Ignorance, I hear, is religion's wingman - deadly duo!
Thus, as the OP (sadly, 3017amen has been banned) states, the cosmos has a big role to play in glossolalia/grpaholalia as there's nothing we know so little about than the domain of cosmology.
It feels rather sad writing in Amen's final thread, and I do feel sad that he cannot reply. I had a fair amount of replies from him. It is perhaps ironic that his final one was about speaking in tongues, and I am sure that he will find some outlet for communicating. Whenever I see the famous little drawing of Kierkergaard I always think, oh, there's Amen. I imagine he will also probably be remembered on the site for the actual idea that atheism is not logical.
:rofl: :rofl: Jack's eulogy for 3017amen
:rofl:
My very first interaction on the site, when I first joined, was with @3017amen Only a fortnight ago, I was out in Wimbledon engaging in discussion with him about the Bible, and someone wrote that I was 'tripping'.
I also wonder what happens when people are banned and whether they are able to log in at all. I don't know if they get some kind of message saying that they are banned, or simply can't log in at all. But, I would prefer to walk away from the site oneday if I thought that I was just about to be banned, and I don't know if that means that I am a coward. But, we can say that consciousness definitely exists after being banned. He may still be able to see the discussion here, even though he can't speak at all.
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