ZhouBoTong

I don't know. Americans love chants like "we're number 1" and of course "U-S-A! U-S-A!" Those chants just seem stupid if you aren't at the top. Seems ...

hahaha. Somehow, I don't think that is what he meant. Well played :smile:

:up:

Agreed, but only from one exact perspective. You are describing (I am simplifying for clarity - I do not think these are your exact thoughts on the is...

Haha, and I am a bit rambly myself, so we could quickly get out of hand. I will try to remember my brevity lessons from Terrapin Station.

I did read everything, but I can only agree if "ends" and "means" are distinct entities. But I have been trying to say that I can't see them as differ...

Fair enough, and I appreciate the effort...in my next reply to phorrest I will do my best not to add too much air to the balloon :smile:

Works for me. Sorry if I am rambling about ends and means in 2 or 3 different threads right now. Haha, these discussions actually had me going to the ...

Very interesting, as I am leaning toward counting that as a premise more than a conclusion. Perspective really changes things, haha. Well they sure do...

Seems we are on a similar track :smile:. However, I struggle to accept that most Muslims (or Christians) can ignore the everlasting punishments and/or...

Good stuff :up: I think your first paragraph captures what I have been rambling on about for pages in just a few lines.

I agree that experience is important, but part of the point of these intellectual exercises is that they are BEYOND experience. Notice that I can only...

That is pretty much what I meant. Nope, but that is true too. only as much as they can be shown to be good as they lead to good ends. We don't KNOW th...

@"JohnRB"@"BitconnectCarlos" Good stuff :up: I would think that, like most art, it just doesn't communicate THE message anywhere near as clearly or ob...

We are in a nice position to sit around and debate this stuff. If we were actually in the thick of it we (most people) would be too emotional to do an...

There are no (unless conceptual) permanent ends. So a good consequentialist would take that into account. Similarly they would view "ends justify the ...

It's a crazy world we live in. People pointing at a blue sign and telling me it is yellow...and they really think they are telling the truth as far as...

Haha, my thoughts exactly (although whether I would go through with it is still unknown - I like to think I would). Yes, probably not a very realistic...

Well I think your example shows we are in agreement. I would say that is a good example where the means DO invalidate the ends. However, if I just hav...

I feel like "the ends justify the means" is more colloquial than much of this discussion implies. I can agree with those that are saying "an end can n...

I count these option as very similar...in another thread I recently suggested that all obligations only exist "because I care". If I didn't care about...

:rofl: Sounds about right to me.

I know this is an old post, but it's new to to me, haha. I just wanted to say nicely done. Very pertinent addition to the thread...I knew the Japanese...

I think that is exactly what Isaac was looking for :grimace: (not explain the workings of Islam, but why he felt that specific point was correct) But ...

Yes, but it shows that they just believe it because they were told it is right. Only the scholars can understand why, right?

I thought he was just asking for justification of a belief. Why does that require a Muslim scholar? Sure they may have had to do the initial interpret...

I only believe the bolded bit to the extent that we impact the world we live in (if I directly help a poor person I don't expect direct help for mysel...

Ok, but then I get to bet that every person you ask will assume they are of above average intelligence (everyone assumes they are of above average int...

Another way to look at it is that everyone DOES contribute. If "contribute" means more than our career and spitting out babies, then everyone contribu...

Yes to all. Unless they profess a belief that a god does exist?? Many atheists consider the question of god itself to be nonsense. So yes, they don't ...

And when we heard your agnostic position, we said, "wow, that sounds just like what I believe. Oh, you call yourself 'agnostic', I call myself 'atheis...

So the agnostic that can't stand atheists was just told to look at the big picture that says "everyone who is not a theist is only that way because th...

Ok, I see where you are going now. I was not viewing things from that perspective and I see your point. I am still going to argue :grimace:, but I thi...

Fair, that is likely me putting my perspective into things. Morals aren't right or wrong, they are admirable or frowned upon (my perspective). I don't...

Modern society has decided that revenge is immoral and hinders the function of society. This change has not just been western culture. Revenge was par...

haha, been there. Once I create it, I feel like I have to respond to every single post in the thread (after I get over bashing myself for a weak OP - ...

Hahaha. I don't have that problem because I don't really enjoy most socializing. This site is the only social media I participate in (and even here, I...

I would actually say no. You can just explain your reasons for liking something better. You can break down and really analyze the specific aspects tha...

Interesting. I thought we were all here because we find this stuff (or some aspects of it) interesting. We may have more grand reasons we like to spew...

Of course it was always about belief. Wait, unless there are KNOWN god(s) I haven't been told about? Just because people in the past KNEW there was a ...

One can dream :grin: Or not :groan:

Why? That is not the context in which modern audiences experience his work. To study how audiences in Shakespeare's day appreciated the work would be ...

The same things that Pfhorrest describes above that helped him "learn" to be happy more often can apply to your scenarios. The goal would not be to be...

No, I am saying I can absolutely simulate that experience in my imagination. I just have no idea how accurate my simulation is. I can imagine walking ...

This all seems in line with my thinking (the bolded bit in particular, but I think it all works). I am not sure why we are so opposed in the other art...

Wait, I am saying there cannot possibly be objective standards for art...so certainly I am not demanding objective standards. And what you have descri...

Well as we are talking about what can be imagined, not experienced, it seems you can imagine infinity. Whether your imagined experience matches an act...

Didn't you just give us ideas on how to "imagine" things even more distant from our conceptual reality? I think I mostly agree with you...but what abo...

Don't fret too much. I was sort of just playing on words. But it seems to me that "recreational space manipulation" is a fine way to describe art, but...

So you don't agree that democracy is the best way of settling that difference? Just because you want that type of authoritarianism doesn't mean we hav...