schopenhauer1

Same as 180, humans are the only beings (we know of) that can make a choice of perpetuating a POV of the absurdity. Entropy may have created our speci...

But why should the human predicament care about the impersonal entropic suffering? It seems perfectly reasonable that a human is concerned with human ...

But humans can choose not to bring more life into the world. So they can choose nothingness in terms of a POV that another would otherwise take on. We...

Surely not. I mean the degraded form we use today when we say, "That is pragmatic".

And yet, the fact I exist at all was because two other people weren't happy enough with themselves.

Even pragmatism is a role you decide to play. But you are on a philosophy forum, apparently the eggs just weren't enough. Mans' main problem.

And thus ends philosophy.

No I’m aware on a daily basis. The average workaday folk can’t understand how life can be inherently suffering. They only understand folk-harm, that o...

I’ve taken your scheme into consideration and have found it at the end of the day, just another (convoluted, obfuscated) version of comply or die.

I noticed no response. I guess my points landed.

That possibility can be of course minimized to a very high degree. For humans, it is not if --> then. Obviously we have birth control methods.

Absolutely not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism Antinatalism is a thing and "We need people to procreate" is just false even on the face of...

No that is not a fact, that is a choice. I’m an ardent antinatalist and I think it’s immoral to burden others with the collateral damage of the negati...

Huh? Our capacities and choices are all in relation to the dissatisfaction/survival. There is no metaphysical leap beyond it as you imply here. Are yo...

Updated last post.

So as your arguments become more concrete, and less obfuscating, I notice they look pretty much like all the usual ones that I have encountered many t...

But the agenda are the dictates of life (sociocultural economic way of surviving and overcoming dissatisfaction). So no, there aren't these magical va...

So this way of looking at one's progeny as a system one can control and adjust is exactly the kind of thinking that I think is misguided and ultimatel...

I would reply to Apollodorus myself, but you are doing an excellent job already explaining the major points, especially that last post.

This is why I call procreation a political move.. You have an agenda that this socio-cultural-political-economic-physical arrangement of society/exist...

No rather, there is nothing prior to compare it to. It is, "Do you (the parent) want to create this situation for the child or don't you". If you proc...

The problem is, that there will always be niche elite programs out there.. Would this ever translate to wider society? Probably not in a multicultural...

Got it.. Try working in some urban or rural poor schools to get some perspective.. or even just middle of the road with a mix.. Sounds like you are he...

So I have been on this forum for many years (and its previous incarnations).. I have answered this question numerous times.. I am not trying to argue ...

See above.

All great stuff, but you have to look at the population. If the kids are already set up for this kind of thinking then you are fine, but a lot of US s...

That's a loaded question because there was no one to limit or not limit previously. Rather, living means X, Y, Z for a person. Don't force X, Y, Z.. L...

Schopenhauer's Vanity of Existence and Studies in Pessimism. Maybe his broader Wisdom of Life essays. Perhaps E.M Cioran's The Trouble with Being Born...

You know what, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that you wanted me to clarify the "agenda" versus the things like "survival/boredom".. Let me cla...

Scratch all of this because I need to explain this better.. so doing it in next post.

Procreation by de facto definition is forcing an agenda, because entailed in a human life is the agenda of comply or die. However, it is true that pri...

Basically.. one like the son of man in Daniel was ambiguous but popular interpretation was that it represented the messiah.. That this figure was late...

Don't get your question. Forcing the agenda is creating a someone who is procreated. By their procreation, one is creating a state of affairs where th...

Once a person is created, it is that someone I am referring to.

No, rather you are strawmanning my argument. There is no person being "prevented" before procreation. I didn't talk about a "not-being" that is more v...

Well, and that is the main argument we are discussing, right? So my whole post earlier was about whether Son of Man as a redeeming angel could have be...

There is nothing "beyond the agenda". Survival, dissatisfaction_____Contingent suffering. Don't even know what you mean. Too much vague abstraction.. ...

Yes, but of course this is all basically accepted as consensus.. The question is to what extent the apocalyptic angels were widespread in all Jewish c...

Yep.. We have to be careful to understand the stability and solidity of ideas in the right context of their time period. By the time of the Second Tem...

You must remember the context within the story is that Daniel is basically enslaved in Babylon and having a dream vision.. Thus it makes sense to talk...

Hey, very well could be. But it was still angels visiting man.. I think the trend towards the end of the Bible and post-Biblical (apocrypha and Merkab...

Fear of pain and unknown. Stop falling for cliched anti antinatalists arguments if “If you don’t kill your self, life must be good or you must be hold...

What is a more satisfactory agenda? Survival is necessary if you don't want to die. But I don't want to die, Survival always takes precedence unless s...

But that you MUST do, has already been forced unto you at all. The move from unenlightened to enlightened is what I am talking about.. This move itsel...

Thems fightin words :angry: :lol:

Yep true.. However, the Torah seems to be a product of about the 600s-400s BCE, with the prophets ranging from 800s-200s BCE (Daniel being one of the ...

Yep agreed on pretty much all of that. Yeah, but I think this was ambiguous and various groups interpreted it differently, including different Rabbis ...

I do everyday.. It is literally what you have to do to survive unless you are a complete hermit in the woods.. but even then if you are a fully functi...

Exactly. Yes, but also for the ancient Jews.. which is why they get attached to so much mysticism, including the messianic claimant, at various times ...