schopenhauer1

Yes it is a truism that we have choices. But as others have brought up, the system itself cannot be chosen. One cannot change the givens of existentia...

Another fallacy...if the system is flawed, it must be something wrong with YOU. It is a nice bit of social engineering to get people to blame themselv...

To quote myself: Your options are... be beholden to the forces of this behemoth technological economic giant and get by with the six or so "goods" to ...

One of the worst assumptions of all economics is that people should like producing things, and that production is good in and of itself. The assumptio...

One of Khaled's ideas I think here, is that you can never know what the child might think of life, whatever circumstances you are experiencing or are ...

I would say this is not bad model there, but you are also missing that it is on behalf of someone else, and that part is central to @"khaled"'s point....

Indeed that's what antinatalists are doing. I'd like to add, that it is ALWAYS bad to make challenges for others, when no challenges needed to be enco...

But all of this ameliorating (helping, putting a bandaid on, etc.) can be avoided by simply not having a new person in the first place. Done, presto. ...

For the record, you seem to be arguing in good faith and earnestly, Terrapin seems to be constantly just jerking you around and not addressing the que...

@"khaled" I like your arguments there. You may want to read some of my posts- most of which are on antinatalism. One major AN reason I see is the trea...

Unlike everything else we try to understand, with consciousness, it is investigating the phenomena that allows for other things to have understanding....

Yes. The things-themselves, the terrain. Panpsychism is simply a broad term for "that" when talking of terrain..that darn mysterious beetle that we kn...

Exactly.

Indeed, we are ignorant of the millions of ideas that some engineer-types thought of. Their ideas which satisfied their intellectual curiosity.. creat...

@"Galuchat" @"bert1" @"Wayfarer"@"Harry Hindu" The hard problem also has to do with the fact that we are trying to understand the very thing we are us...

Argument of antinatalism- not having children. There is no one who is deprived of anything. There is no one who exists to need...anything actually.

That is not the issue at hand. The issue is, no one needs to assess anything, if they don't exist.

It doesn't matter.. the assessment of good/bad for something that does not exist.

It.. what is it here? We are talking about potentially having someone who doesn't exist yet.

Yep, no mattering for someone who does not exist.

They don't exist. There is no actual person who is deprived here. That is the kicker ;).

Nor would it matter, if they weren't born ¯\_(?)_/¯.

Well-stated in terms of a moderate antinatalism. What are your views on things I mentioned earlier for reasons? See below: I. Keep in mind that no act...

I never advocate forcing restrictions. I liken antinatalism to veganism- you can present your views respectfully, but don't force them. Also, do not b...

Antinatalism is the best solution for all the problems I have laid out over the years. It is draconian to force others into a system, without caring t...

Well stated. That was what I was trying to convey :up:

First off, there is no "unborn fetus", unless we are discussing abortion. It's just a potential person. But, no you are not the first person nor the l...

Again, there are only two or three antinatalists here. Slim-pickins.. Of course you are going to have the satisfaction of almost anyone else who comme...

@"Wallows" What's the point of even bringing this up if you are only going to have, what, two antinatalists on this forum defend it against the hordes...

I dont know what it is. That's the phenomena to be described. One can say causally imagination is certain brain states but metaphysically, how my expe...

Nonphysical stuff would be like "imagination", "color green", "sound", "the concept of happiness", etc.etc. It is also called "mental states" or "expe...

So where does that get us? Ice melting, and other physical processes are presumably..physical. How it is that one property- the mental, is experientia...

Those are not properties of experience. We are investigating properties that have experientialness to them, no? Properties like melting points are not...

I see your argument as not advancing anything other than what we know. People experience quale, we can converse about it. The question is not about wh...

Yes, I am. It is existent, but how is it that this property is metaphysically the same as the physical substrate. If properties are just "something" o...

Yum. Sounds healthy. I suppose this would be ideal..I'd use the spade to dig the ditch I would inevitably defecate in, and sleep under the bridge for ...

Again, the Cartesian Theater is the "magic".. not literal of course. At some point, there is a hidden dualism or a Cartesian Theater whereby the physi...

Your garden is just a hobby.. You need the plastic, the concrete, the pipes, the water, the billions of other things that engineers and happy inventor...

I agree. I would suspect because non-boring alternatives would leave little to be desired for getting all this "stuff done". Someone needs to make the...

Absolutely. But not everyone can be a Jack Kerouac watching the world progress away in tedium.

You are answering the hard question with easy question answers. The question is WHY is it that there is such thing as a subjective feeling of quale in...

THAT is the exact thing that is trying to be understood. Yep, so why is it THAT experience at all (whatever it is) is attendant with the physiological...

I did not mean for the thread to be about paying people based on boredom. Rather, I want to quantify boredom in some way (like we try to quantify subj...

Agreed. But, we are looking from two different angles. You are talking about ecological disaster, which very well might be inevitable. What about the ...

Oh there is also the ridiculous notion that "getting paid" solves the problem of work-boredom. The assumption is that pay gets rid of the problem, bec...

But they still have some experience- even if not the same as a majority of people. What is this experience as compared to the wavelength/neural states...

If we play out our two scenarios: My Belief: I think the world is not worth starting for someone else. Consequence: No new person is born. No one actu...

Right, so while doing boring work, you live in the ethereal Platonic realm and Buddhist nirvana nothingness, in your mind, thus allowing your physical...

This is muddled. WHAT is the "qualitative state" then? That is the hard question. Qualitative states exist, you are proposing. I agree. Also, physical...

@"Bitter Crank"@"T Clark" @"Valentinus"@"fdrake" So I guess a question from this is, what does producing more output matter when the collateral damage...