schopenhauer1

No not really. It is a known fact that suffering exists and is almost indubitably inevitable beyond a doubt that someone will suffer in some way- even...

Ok, then the hope they will help is sufficient reason to go ahead and have people that will inevitably suffer? That is still causing the necessary con...

Is that your final answer? You know I'm going to say that falls into the "using people as a means" category. Now they have to deal with, because you w...

Agreed for the already living. Until further eradication or mitigation, why bring more people into it?

If we are using it in a precise and not common-parlance way, sure it is necessary but not sufficient (unless we explore Buddhist/Schopenhauer's ideas ...

Ok, we can agree to that.. Still doesn't make it an "issue". Sure. You are not suffering right NOW. There almost certainly was and probably will be. T...

How is that ignoring your arguments? Its saying that living itself is not "sufficient" to cause particular cases of suffering, but it is necessary for...

Maybe not, but it's what I'm trying to say.

But I didn't handwave your arguments. I tried to answer them by questioning whether sufficiency matters when all lives have suffering (to some degree)...

I think you mean philosophical spam. However, you are not doing philosophical trolling. You are just trolling. Anyways, Coronavirus in and of itself c...

You can't handwave the whole post off with this cherry-picked quote. You have to read the part that it is an almost inevitability that suffering will ...

Yes compadre, it is. You overmine it and are making a non-argument an argument. Living causes the conditions of suffering. See my post above about its...

Please have more response to my argument than that. I did provide a pretty detailed response and even though I generally disagree with your current ar...

I do want to bring up, I am not necessarily using Benatar's version of antinatalism here, though I guess I'm obliged to defend it now being it is some...

Again, unnecessary trolling.

This is a really good analogy. I interpret it this way: People have become co-dependent with their suffering. It becomes necessary to living because i...

This is a dubious argument. When your supposed "suffering" is contingent on not getting to seriously affect someone else, then that suffering is not e...

Bringing people out of existence through horrible disease is not part of the antinatalist agenda, sorry. Certainly being brought into existence expose...

Enough trolling. Youre not as sophisticated with the unnecessary swearing. Say something or be silent.

Diseases in general show how short-sighted people are when they are projecting how well-off their offspring will be. When people only think of the "go...

Have you considered antinatalism as a solution? :lol:

So I don't think you are getting me here. You are talking about gender discrimination and the role of women in society. That is an interesting topic. ...

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing. So this thread is about how deciding to have children is itself an ideology. The ideology would be something lik...

Good point. Interesting. I can agree being that parents are assenting to perpetuate a certain way-of-life from being born. There is possibly a tangent...

I am in line generally with Kant's idea that people should not be used as a means if you can help it. Well, having children in order for them to take ...

So I think we are basically in agreement except that wanting/having children is a "fact of life". I have argued several times that in the human animal...

How about part of the response is not having children?

I couldn't agree with you more in the first paragraph and couldn't agree with you less in the second (if you weren't joking). This is probably a major...

But to live at all is the ideology in this case. Why should people live at all (be conceived, birthed into existence)? To work, to entertain themselve...

So to take this implication further, I believe this to be the utmost important political decision. I see political ideology as ideas that one believes...

Isn't this just another case for antinatalism though- pandemics? This one isn't particularly deadly (except for older folks and those with pre-existin...

So what kind of personality profile is this? Is there a difference between this kind of willful manipulation and the plain old self-imposed limitation...

Who is this hapless demographic that gets duped by Facebook/social media content and ads? Are there really people that look at this and go "Ah, that's...

The key word here is chooses. To say that most animals "choose" to have offspring, is a misuse of that word. Animals may have instincts for children, ...

I'm not sure how you are using the term axiomatize. However, I will say that life does not have ideas, only people do. People choose to have offspring...

But the debate isn't about which society is best, but whether it is good to bring someone into any society. See the conversation I'm having with TheMa...

It's the implication of this that is most important, not just awareness (though I doubt parents think of birthing children as assenting to an ideology...

As an aside, something seems wrong with knowingly putting people in a worse situation. So I think you are still not thinking general enough. I mean, l...

Sometimes the obvious is profound, but it just takes a slight perspective change on it :grin: . Would you agree that generally, a society has a "way o...

I think this is where you get off the track. An ideology has ideas behind it. It is doubtful animal societies (even chimps) have ideas underpinning it...

Society has certain ways of life that are discernible. These ways of life are its own ideology. Generally in Western society, there is work, etc. As I...

You make it sound like an inevitability. The "machinery of ideology" is in fact people DECIDING society is good enough to (literally) procreate more p...

Birth by default creates conditions (major ones, like living itself) for another person, so I don't know, I'd say birthing a new person would be the h...

I think your examples miss the point of the premise. Rather, I am saying that by birthing someone, one is assenting to a set of ideals (one being that...

So, I don't think you're quite getting my drift. Rather, what I'm saying is that we all know that society is a certain way. By having children, we are...

All of this is interesting, but a bit off the mark as to what I mean by ideology. What you are discussing is INTRA-ideological debates (self-employed ...

We know that by existing. If there were null people in this world, this fact wouldn't matter. Once just one new person enters this world, then the ant...

There are some things that cannot be compromised. For example, there is no possible centrism regarding the antinatalist proposal. You are either born ...

The whole point of medical insurance is a lot of people are on the plan. No one really "picks" their insurance. Their employers pick for them. If you ...

Yes, shoes are an annoying but important thing to pick out, hence I used it as an example. I mentioned Western civilization because this might not mat...