Terrapin Station

But you can't say that without it being a judgment on your part, and we already have a word for that. "False." Again, you're wondering why there isn't...

It also threw me off in the one earlier response, because he was asking "What do we call" and then all of a sudden he said, "I'm positing a scenario w...

Why would we need a word for something to do with propositions and they way they link up with other things that targets something we can't even do or ...

So you're wondering if there's a word for a scenario that isn't something that people could do.

People can't do anything but judge whether some state of affairs obtains or not first off.

No. The word for that is "false." There's not a special word for propositions that people would judge to be false in a different scenario.

I'm writing another post because you respond so fast that I don't know if you'll see an edit. Actually, I retract that last comment. I would say that ...

No you can't, because reference doesn't exist outside of particular individuals thinking about it however they do.

Yeah, it's a particular state of a particular individual's brain. "Abstract objects" are conceptual particulars in persons brains.

You can't talk about propositions, references, etc. and how they link up with aything without talking about people making judgments about that stuff, ...

So what? I thought you weren't talking about propositions??

If you're using those words you're talking about people making judgments about things. If you want to just talk the world outside of people thinking a...

Then why are you using the words "reference," "description," "proposition" etc.?

There is no difference. Comparing propositions to states of affairs is always a judgment. There's no "objective view." Truth and falsehood are judgmen...

If you're asking "what does the person in question call the proposition 'it is raining' in a situation where it isn't raining but they believe it to b...

We call it "false." The person who judges it to be true isn't going to say that it is false in that situation, but someone else could say that it is f...

Usefulness is irrelevant to reality. The reality is that propositions only obtain when individuals think them. There's absolutely no evidence of them ...

You can't have a licensee without someone issuing licenses, for example. If you try to talk about a licensee with no licensor, it's nonsense.

"Referent" is nonsense outside of that.

Okay, but for the referent to obtain, there has to be a reference made, no?

You're asking what we call something when a particular sort of reference obtains, right?

Just to make sure we don't ignore this, again, what it is for this to happen is for the person in question to judge it to be happening. When a proposi...

I agree with that part. The problem with this part: Is that per my views that you just said that you understood above, propositions, reference and mea...

Okay. What it is, on my view, for a proposition to refer to a state of affairs (that obtains) is for an individual to think about propositions/meaning...

Thanks. I'm getting there. But I want to make sure you understand this one step at a time, because this is ridiculously laborious for something so sim...

I'm having a conversation with someone else about the same thing on another thread, and we're kind of at the same place. On my view, a proposition onl...

Okay, that's fine. I haven't answered that. Do you understand that I believe that propositions can only exist via an individual thinking the propositi...

Before I answer this again, I just want to make sure that you understand some basics of my view. (1) Do you understand that I believe that proposition...

That's different than my view. On my view, consensuses, norms, etc. can take a hike. ;-)

There's no disagreement about that. What there's disagreement about is whether "X" is true or false independent of us/our judgment. Whether X is true ...

States of affairs obtaining is talking about facts. There's no dispute about that. The dispute is about propositions being true and false. Facts and p...

That's why we're not understanding each other. That's exactly part of the issue on my view. If words can't refer to something mind-independently, then...

I typed a mess the first time. I corrected it after that.

I'm asking you how that works that the reference either obtains or it doesn't mind-independently, Explain it mechanically/physically.

I'm not saying that the fact of whether there is a window or whether you will fall if you jump out of a window is subjective. I'm saying that truth, w...

Let's try it this way. How would it work, exactly--basically in terms of the mechanics of it--that "it is raining" is true or false independently of w...

Who would say that an interlocutor can't disregard whatever? If you're wanting to say "should," that requires an additional view: that one should or s...

You can't literally "think the fact." The fact is the state of affairs in the world. So I'm not talking about disagreeing on how to describe the fact ...

I don't at all agree with the distinction you're making. (I do agree with a distinction between a particular sentence and a statement/proposition, how...

Only in other persons' judgment. They can't be wrong objectively or mind-independently, because there is no objective meaning, no objective reference,...

I agree with you there. I just don't think that the world is our creation.

In a thought experiment where we're positing that we know they have just the same meanings in mind, etc, then yes, sure, they disagree on whether or n...

Not in the sense of mind-independently or objectively, as opposed to per one's judgement, because there is no such thing as a mind-independent or obje...

Oh. That's easy. There's a blue bucket in my bathroom, for example.

I agree with that, but I don't agree with this: I think that puts too much emphasis on us, which I think is an all-too-common error in philosophy.

I don't really have any idea what you're asking there. Are you asking for something like a blueprint of how concept-creation works?

It's like wondering why your bathtub isn't breathing.

You could say they're "objectively ineffable." But we're subjects. We describe things subjectively. The idea of an objective description, in a literal...

And I told you that "accurately," as in mind-independently or objectively, as opposed to subjectively judged, when it comes to whether propositions de...

I wouldn't say there is anything immobile. And I'd say everything is concrete, in the sense of material. There's a flux out there, and a flux in here....