flannel jesus

You don't even have a tentative definition of indeterminism?

the entire scenario with the 2 bobs is laid out assuming INDETERMINISM is the case. Not determinism. So that's why I didn't really understand why you'...

would you briefly paraphrase what you think the argument is in that article, and what the conclusion is? I'm really curious where you're at.

the article isn't about determinism

They HAVE TO perform the same action? I'm not sure we're reading the same article. Why do you say they have to? The author didn't say that.

My description of an indeterminist compatibilist didn't involve an indeterminist concept of free will.

every single word there has a clear prior context of meaning in this conversation, so I don't know why you think it's a jumble of words with no defini...

uh huh. And I stand by that. An indeterminist compatibilist is an indeterminist whose concept of free will is compatible with determinism.

Because that's what compatibilism means. Compatibilism in this context literally means, my concept of free will is compatible with determinism.

someone who believes in libertarian free will believes the following 3 things 1. We have free will 2. Indeterminism is true 3. Indeterminism MUST be t...

Mispost

it can only be, yes, but that doesn't mean they mean the same thing. A square can only be a rectangle, but you can't just call things "squares" whenev...

I thought you were arguing for libertarian compatibilism.

did you know you don't have to be a determinist to be a compatibilist?

I think you've given the definition of determinism and called it "compatibilism".

Are those your definitions?

Other than the definition of what they are, which I wouldn't call "nothing". Now that you know what distinguishes determinism from indeterminism, do y...

What do you mean by "this"? What tells us nothing?

What does it mean more generally? For me, "free will" alone, without the term "libertarian" attached, is the general term. Attach "libertarian" and yo...

That's just the actual distinction between a deterministic system and an indeterministic one. In a deterministic system, the future states follow from...

this conservation started with you saying and you used yourself and your beliefs regarding teleological causation as an example, going as far as to ca...

an extremely unnecessarily narrow view of determinism fails, perhaps.

I think you're interpreting those words as narrowly as you can, so as to exclude the types of causes you're interested in. I don't interpret them so n...

I don't see why you think that quote excludes those types of causation. It certainly doesn't look like those types of causation are explicitly exclude...

I don't see why you think they're excluding goal-based determining factors. There's nothing, not one iota as far as I can see, of these definitions of...

That's much too opaque for me, sorry. I try to read between those lines, but I don't see anything. Can you spell out for me what you're trying to get ...

So wikipedia got it wrong you think, interesting. And I see people across the internet getting it wrong the same way (perhaps they're all just bouncin...

I succinctly said what determinism is? Can you copy and paste the thing I said that you think is the succinct definition of determinism? If you do tha...

Oh, I've never heard someone take that position. Wikipedia says Why do you think libertarianism isn't a subcategory of incompatibilism?

I believe in free will my dude I'm not sure what you mean by "do likewise for indeterminism"

He does? I missed this. I don't think he said incompatibilism at all in his article. Libertarianism is a subcategory of incompatibilism, and that's wh...

sure. When he's talking about world 1 and world 2, Bob 1 and Bob 2, that only makes sense in an indeterminist context. In a determinist context, Bob 1...

That's not two separate things. The machinery --is you--. Or at least a physical instantiation of the abstraction of "you" maybe. But probably simpler...

The conversation is about indeterminism. So the answer is, you don't. I think you've possibly misunderstood what's happening here.

I am a decision making machine. I'm free, perhaps in a trivial way, to do (or try to do) the things I want to. The things I, as a decision making mach...

?randomness? If you account for all facts between world one and world two, and all relevant facts about both worlds are precisely the same, then the d...

That's right.

I don't think it's strictly logically impossible that Bob2 would do something different. I just think it makes no sense to attribute that difference t...

because your will is the same. How can you attribute a difference to something that was the same? Let's say one little kid grows up to be a great athl...

physics has come a long way since newton. Banno is most probably thinking about QM when he says that.

I conceive of compatibilism as quite general, not any specific way of framing the process of choice making. Compatibilism is a classification of a set...

I think we just have a difference in vocabulary, because my beliefs are really similar to yours, but I just call it compatibilism.

Wait, it could be predicted with perfect accuracy, but it isn't necessary? Are you sure this isn't a distinction without a difference? If something ha...

It sounds like you think, given the same state, the same future will follow. And it sounds like you believe we have free will anyway. I guess, to me, ...

what makes your view libertarian, instead of compatibilist?

In my view, yeah, that's really the alternative to determinism. If we have a system evolving over time, it seems to me that any given change in that e...

That's not what the article in the op is about

you really don't think I've captured just about everything you've said, much more succinctly and clearly, in my plain language paraphrasings? Dang dud...

mate, I can't do these crazy sentences. It seems like you're going out of your way to make the most basic concepts sound as complex as possible. You'v...

Honestly it just sounds like you can skip all the jargon and say, You've imagined a statue that you want to make. It becomes your goal to make it. You...