Moliere

It's not the wording which I have an issue with as much as how you are conceptualizing the situation. Ownership over property, rights, and the rest al...

For myself, at least, your position is hard to distinguish from the Catholic position -- not in its effects, but in its justification. That's why I me...

I'm replying to Hanover here because I had an answer immediately. I'm still digesting the others. I'd say because the appropriate way of handling its ...

Now, to be fair, I can understand why you are passionate in your disagreement. If you are right I am basically condoning murder of innocent children f...

Why is it not your body? Mayhaps because a body, in your view, is defined by cellular characteristics? You consider these things relevant. I can see t...

Which seems to be a theme here among you three -- You reject my answer to the question, "When does a fetus have rights?". I ask for one from you, but ...

All this only follows if we follow your assertion that our cells make us something which has or owns. You may believe that people are defined by havin...

There are rules which regulate gall bladders as well. No? I wouldn't know, but I would be surprised if organs had no laws which regulate them. I don't...

I don't believe so. We have wills, for instance, and methods for distributing property properly after someone dies.

People seek out abortions in the third trimester, though. So, even then, if the actions of those unversed in the finer points of philosophy are justif...

Just to make clear, I wouldn't say this. Someone who has lived a life has a separate body, a history, and many relationships, rights, and so forth, ev...

I think it would depend on how you define "ordinary people". Not only do they do what you are saying, they also seek out abortions. Yes? And said proc...

Which scientific literature tells us when something ought to be treated as a bearer of rights? Last I looked, eyebrows and lashes were not the indicat...

Not by my reasoning. The fetus doesn't have anything at all. There is no separation between the fetus and the mother. So it is strange to treat the fe...

At this point, considering that you haven't been able to defend your position and have pleaded ignorance and a desire to take your time in coming to a...

Not enough of one to invoke the law, at least. Of course there are differences -- but the fetus is not a person with rights, and shouldn't be consider...

Fair. Though, to be clear, I don't think debate should be restricted -- even in the event that there were some way that women were the official policy...

Perhaps in your opinion. But I think all of these are reasonable because I don't think a fetus is a human, but will become a human. If you have a gall...

It's a bit of a digression at the fault of my own mention, I think. In the world we actually live in, I agree with you -- that is the position I'm adv...

Yup. Hence why I said that, pragmatically speaking, I opt for the subjective route. In the world we actually live in I don't know how you'd implement ...

@"jamalrob" beat me to the punch, but I'd like to link another paper -- I couldn't find the one I wanted, and jamal's actually covers what I was looki...

I don't know about others, but I know about myself -- I don't think a fetus has rights. There's nothing "sufficiently advanced", or "most sophisticate...

No worries. I don't mean to be a drain. I only wished to defend my position -- I certainly didn't expect to persuade, as I mentioned.

I disagree that this would be unfair and discriminatory. Suppose you have 3 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner democratically. They eat dif...

Sure, why not? On the surface I don't see anything wrong with that. It's worth noting historical context, etc., and even in today's world of supposed ...

Actually, scratch that. Let's assume fetuses feel pain. Would you have no problem with an abortion of an 8.5 month old fetus being aborted if it were ...

How do we know fetus' feel pain?

I think this sounds confused. What do you mean? Could you outline those values, then? And support them?

Doesn't that implicitly assume your belief about when a fetus gets rights and is a person, though? Shouldn't you have to justify that, as both Catholi...

Only in an ideal sense. I recognize the difficulties in real life of implementing something like that. But, in general, I believe that those who are e...

Right, that's what I'm getting at. While simultaneously recognizing that there are pragmatic difficulties in encoding that into law.

I agree that it is a heap problem. Perhaps we have some common ground, there. What I would question on your part is the obviousness of your own belief...

Take your time. No need to rush anything. And, yes, I don't have something that we should do together now. I just know what I believe, and why I belie...

Birth works as far as I'm concerned. ;) But, I'm not alone in the world, nor the dictator. It seems, then, that you are pinning "sufficiently advanced...

So, even if the fetus is viable, if it poses a threat to the mother you're good -- and even if the continuation of the pregnancy does not pose a threa...

Cool. Sounds good. So, what's your take on California's law then? EDIT: To remain clear, so it doesn't seem like a bait or anything -- I read it, and ...

It's not whether common people are dumb or not, but whether or not they have the information. I mean, seriously -- who could expect someone to know th...

The incorporation of a particular history, of experiences, a physical and social environment are all important aspects of who we are -- but also being...

Ok, fair. My bad, then. And, no, it's not common knowledge.

Yes, I do. Suppose you have some topic, and within that topic there are 8 opinions with an even distribution. You might then say that 1 such opinion i...

I disagree that 8.5 months is the only important point to garner there. My point is to show that the line is drawn at various stages of development. Y...

*shrugs* I suppose? My point is in showing that 3rd trimester abortions are legal. Up to 8 1/2 weeks. That didn't seem to be understood in this conver...

"Think of the children!" And there was much gnashing of teeth... The similarity between yours and the Catholic position is more in the above than the ...

:D I'm more than happy to agree to disagree or wait until a more formal debate, but I am not below trading barbs for barbs either -- keep in mind that...

Certainly. There is a difference, though, between defending a position and persuading others to it. No? Because I was reflecting on my own beliefs and...

I'm not swayed by survivability as a criteria for law. It strikes me as being very similar to potential-personhood arguments, which I similalrly don't...

This is what I was reacting to -- (I was reacting, in particular, to "would convince") For the record this is already legal in some states in the U.S....

I did not set out to persuade you. I was called into question, and am defending my position from the claim that it is absurd. I don't think philosophy...

What counts as a "fully developed nervous system" (and, for that matter, "feel pain", and cognitive abilities -- what, precisely, are you referring to...

I don't know what the essentialist argument that you are referring to is, but when you say there's no specific moment when a fetus turns into a person...