Do I appear to my body, or does my body appear to me?
PopDecember 02, 2020 at 07:273100 views8 comments
A classic Chicken and egg situation. What is the True answer?
Comments (8)
StreetlightDecember 02, 2020 at 07:37#4761820 likes
Your body appears to itself, which you are.
Harry HinduDecember 02, 2020 at 11:46#4762160 likes
And the appearance is itself part of the body, so you end up getting an appearance feedback loop when your body observes itself, like the visual feedback loop you get when a camera looks back at the monitor it is connected to. This is the infinite rabbit hole that is created when the self processes information about the self.
Self- consciousness is a sensory information feedback loop.
Rafaella LeonDecember 02, 2020 at 12:59#4762220 likes
Reply to Pop For millennia each human being, when pronouncing the word “I”, immediately and automatically referred to his immortal soul, the only one who could pray and answer for his own actions before the altar of divinity. Of this soul, the bodily psyche was a minor part and function, focused solely on the material and social environment, alien to every sense of the eternal and, strictly speaking, incapable of sin or holiness, only of socially recognized crimes and virtues.
Later on when the bodily psyche was assumed as an autonomous reality, each individual only sees himself as a member of an animal species and as a “citizen”, amputated from that dimension that underlies the ultimate sense of responsibility and then he cultivates, in its place, the mere instinct of social adequacy.
CiceronianusDecember 02, 2020 at 15:35#4762470 likes
Well, only if it's assumed there's a "you" that's not your body, and if one of them "came" before the other, and if one of them caused the other to be. Or, of course, if one of them is a chicken and the other an egg.
From a developmental point of view, I'd say we appear to our bodies, first [no nervous impulses without neurons and no cognition without a developed brain AND experience/sensation (the self is formed from sensations) - the body comes before the self); then, our bodies appear to us (or as StreetlightX said, the body appears to itself]. There must be something that is capable of being aware before one realizes his own body, but there must be a body before there is something capable of being aware.
Jack CumminsDecember 02, 2020 at 17:44#4762820 likes
[reply="Pop;d9774"
This debate could be seen as going back to the position of whether existence precedes essence l, as stressed by Sartre. It is hard to know whether existence precedes essence, body before mind. I think this is relevant to your debate, and would say that perspective may be of importance.
Does I appear to my mind or my mind to my body. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective but it also raises questions about the whole mind and body debate. Which is the most important?
When you dream of flying, is it your body or a mental image of your body? The dreaming scenario shows it’s possible for your body to present an image of the body to itself. But more specifically, the nervous system.
Yes I agree. The self organization of the body creates consciousness, which can then reflect back upon itself, to reflect upon the process that created it.
Does I appear to my mind or my mind to my body. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective
I think you are right. From the first person perspective thinking would seem to come first, and so my body would appear to me. From a third person perspective though, the body has to evolve to a stage where it becomes self aware, and so I would appear to my body.
What I find interesting is how the philosophical paradigm changes the logic of the answer. From an idealist's first person perspective we must start with consciousness - Quoting Marchesk
is it your body or a mental image of your body?
but from a materialist / realist third person perspective we step outside consciousness and create a logical story :Quoting StreetlightX
Comments (8)
Self- consciousness is a sensory information feedback loop.
Later on when the bodily psyche was assumed as an autonomous reality, each individual only sees himself as a member of an animal species and as a “citizen”, amputated from that dimension that underlies the ultimate sense of responsibility and then he cultivates, in its place, the mere instinct of social adequacy.
Well, only if it's assumed there's a "you" that's not your body, and if one of them "came" before the other, and if one of them caused the other to be. Or, of course, if one of them is a chicken and the other an egg.
This debate could be seen as going back to the position of whether existence precedes essence l, as stressed by Sartre. It is hard to know whether existence precedes essence, body before mind. I think this is relevant to your debate, and would say that perspective may be of importance.
Does I appear to my mind or my mind to my body. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective but it also raises questions about the whole mind and body debate. Which is the most important?
Quoting Harry Hindu
Yes I agree. The self organization of the body creates consciousness, which can then reflect back upon itself, to reflect upon the process that created it.
Quoting Rafaella Leon
So there is an element underlying the process of self awareness - this being the soul. So it is the body that appears to the soul?
Quoting Ciceronianus the White
So which one is it?
Quoting Daniel
Initially I thought the same, but then I thought about Descartes I think therefore I am, and considered whether thinking has to come first?
Quoting Jack Cummins
I think you are right. From the first person perspective thinking would seem to come first, and so my body would appear to me. From a third person perspective though, the body has to evolve to a stage where it becomes self aware, and so I would appear to my body.
What I find interesting is how the philosophical paradigm changes the logic of the answer. From an idealist's first person perspective we must start with consciousness - Quoting Marchesk but from a materialist / realist third person perspective we step outside consciousness and create a logical story :Quoting StreetlightX