Is Atheism the negation of Theism?
Recently, I read about Ryan Bell’s argument about atheism and theism, which suggests that atheism and theism has a relationship of symbiosis. He thinks that atheism is a negation of theism, and should be a counterpoint of theism; therefore, only if theism is a reasonable idea, atheism can continue to be a distinct idea. Firstly, I would like to reorganize his ideas as follows:
(1) If idea X is the negation of idea Y, then idea X exists only if idea Y is a credible idea.
(2) Atheism is the negation of theism.
(3) Therefore, atheism exists only if theism exists.
Based on this argument, I think that premise (1) is reasonable, as if X is the negation of Y, then Y should be a credible idea in order to make the existence of X meaningful. However, when this argument is applied to theism versus atheism, I would like to question that what if there is no way to decide whether Y is credible or not. Since we don’t have physical authentic evidence to prove that theism is credible, and we don’t have such evidence to deny that theism is credible either, then what should we do? If we want to follow the argument above, then the focus should shift back to discuss about how theism should be proved.
Regarding premise (2), I would like to discuss about whether atheism is the negation of theism. It is true that theists believe in the existence of God, and atheists believe in the non-existence of God; however, I don’t think that it directly means atheism is the negation of theism. The negation of theism should be the idea that denies the belief of the existence of God, instead of directly denying the existence of God. Without theism, atheism is still a distinct idea that claims the non-existence of God. Atheism won’t disappear if theism is not addressed. It makes me think of anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa; it is true that anorexia nervosa refers to symptom that people feel nauseous when eating or just seeing food, and bulimia nervosa refers to symptom that people can’t control themselves eating though they are already full. These two ideas are opposite, but it doesn’t mean that one of them is the negation of the other. Therefore, when I see the claim that atheism is the negation of theism, I feel questionable about whether atheism should be considered as the negation of theism, or they are just opposite ideas.
(1) If idea X is the negation of idea Y, then idea X exists only if idea Y is a credible idea.
(2) Atheism is the negation of theism.
(3) Therefore, atheism exists only if theism exists.
Based on this argument, I think that premise (1) is reasonable, as if X is the negation of Y, then Y should be a credible idea in order to make the existence of X meaningful. However, when this argument is applied to theism versus atheism, I would like to question that what if there is no way to decide whether Y is credible or not. Since we don’t have physical authentic evidence to prove that theism is credible, and we don’t have such evidence to deny that theism is credible either, then what should we do? If we want to follow the argument above, then the focus should shift back to discuss about how theism should be proved.
Regarding premise (2), I would like to discuss about whether atheism is the negation of theism. It is true that theists believe in the existence of God, and atheists believe in the non-existence of God; however, I don’t think that it directly means atheism is the negation of theism. The negation of theism should be the idea that denies the belief of the existence of God, instead of directly denying the existence of God. Without theism, atheism is still a distinct idea that claims the non-existence of God. Atheism won’t disappear if theism is not addressed. It makes me think of anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa; it is true that anorexia nervosa refers to symptom that people feel nauseous when eating or just seeing food, and bulimia nervosa refers to symptom that people can’t control themselves eating though they are already full. These two ideas are opposite, but it doesn’t mean that one of them is the negation of the other. Therefore, when I see the claim that atheism is the negation of theism, I feel questionable about whether atheism should be considered as the negation of theism, or they are just opposite ideas.
Comments (53)
I agree with the implications of your OP, which is that to claim atheism logically requires theism. The term literally describes the condition of being against or in opposition to theism. The further implication then is that theism is a position that requires engagement, one must take a position on it.
I give theism little thought, and don't believe that holding a strictly rational view of the world requires one to engage with theism at all. The term atheism should be seen as loaded, similar to the term "pro-life". It is polemical and attempts to put words or ideas in one's mouth and mind that need not be there.
I believe that a more historically correct and rationally sound labeling for these two ideas would be "post-theist", and "pre-rational".
Quoting Isabel Hu
Agreed.
Perhaps, but this formulation is incoherent; atheism, rather, is a second-order claim that theistic Tokens - theistic deities - are fictions or, as you suggest, a "denial of the belief" that deities exist, and not a first order claim that denies (as theism affirms) deities exist.
As noted above.
And here it is crucial, for coherence sake, to define g/G by distinguishing which Type or Token belief we're talking about.
By Type-belief I mean a 'conception of divinity' or, better yet, deity-class (e.g. theism, deism, animism, etc)
By Token-belief, thereby, I mean a member of some deity-class (i.e. a particular instance of a Type-belief) such as Jehovah or Zeus, both of which belong to the deity-class of theism.
Denying the latter I refer to as atheism (i.e. theistic g/G Tokens, or members of theism-class, are fictions) which is entailed by denying the former which I also refer to as antitheism (i.e. theism g/G Type, or theism (consisting of claims about - predicates ascribed to - g/G), is not true). Both address theism - "belief about g/G", as you point out - and not g/G itself.
So I agree with you, Isabel, that 'atheism is not the negation of theism'; rather atheism is a logical consequence of antitheism (if only in my own formulation) which explicitly negates - falsifies the distinctive claims of - theism.
Perhaps incoherently.
Unreflectively, in an everyday practical sense, no doubt. We live without - expect that there aren't any - dragons or giants even though we don't actively "address" beliefs in the existence of dragons or giants.
Quoting Pro Hominem
Understandable. If I have to label myself, I prefer 'antitheist' (or just freethinker).
The reason I included history in the mix is that I generally like the concept of history as the "Great Conversation", which denotes a sort of meandering progress of human thought - an evolution. In that context I view theism as an intermediary stepping stone, a juvenile state, of our collective ideas. It played a role in advancing us to the point of rationality, and now the rational-scientific worldview is charged with moving the baton forward to reveal the next phase in the future. In this conception, it is predictable that the previous worldview will linger, and act as something of a drag on progress until it can be marginalized and its negative effects mostly nullified. I see tribalism as the precursor to theism, and we are still dealing with that as well.
Anyway, this more or less linear conception of things is where I derive "pre-rational" and post-theist" from.
This is complete and utter nonsense, what no one on this thread can see is that this is mere formalism, the term existence does not refer to actual existence, but empty, abstract concepts. Refutation: A-Snarkism can only exist if Snarkism exists. This is a waste of time, it is sophistry, the creator of this argument is simply trying to prove a formality and pass it off as a concrete reality. Yes, there are people in the world who believe in make-believe phantoms, there are also people who refute their delusions. In what sense then can theism be said to exist? The discourse should never be carried out at this level, the originator of this argument should have his bottom paddled until he admits that Snarkism is an idea without substance.
True enough. The only part of the equation that you forgot to implement in your argument, is that concepts only have essence and weight, if we put our beliefs in those same ideas. The "human" item still weighs heavily. The consequence of this human interference is the fact that theism is still seen as something real, and atheism arises right after theism - whenever "1" comes into existence, all other possibilities gain potential to be conceived as well. - like "2", "-1" or even "?" - -.
I agree. It fits nicely into the unity of opposites principle.
Furthermore, anytime an atheist makes a positive statement of no God, they unwittingly put themselves in a precarious and untenable position of proving same.
Denial= a statement that something is not true.
nice post!
The ironic thing is you are very likely to use formalism as your criteria for no God.
It is impossible to make such a statement without first defining the term God.
Atheism already defined it as a negation, per OP.
Your point?
:lol:
I am an atheist. The moment you assault me with the word God is the same moment I demand that you explain what you mean by the term. I do not jump to conclusions, I will arrive at them once you have defined your term. If another atheist wants to jump to conclusions without a clarification of the term, they have gone too far, they skipped a step, they are not thinking about what is being presented to them.
Yep. Another reason formal logic (a priori) by itself (and associated concepts) have limited impacts on the " sentient " human condition.
Are there any gods that you wouldn't be an atheist about? Have you ever had god defined in a way you weren’t atheistic about (without the term “god” being a simple placeholder for something else like “universe” or “happiness” of course)?
Again, trying to smuggle in the premise. Define God and then our conversation can begin.
Do you believe in a God?
I think a good question for him would be:
Are you resentful that you're not God?
@JerseyFlight
In Christianity: Jesus.
In logic and ontology: logical necessity.
In phenomenology: the religious experience.
With respect to the OP, we can start with your negation of theism which would be a spin-off from item two... ?
No, I do not. Does that mean you will answer my question now?
No, because you are asking me to produce my own negative. Fuck off.
How do you know that Jesus is God?
It seems to me in my experience, more often than not, atheists are angry. Even Einstein recognized the phenomenon. He coined the term "fanatical atheist."
I always find it very rude when someone uses a response to me to actually be talking to someone else. Please don’t involve me in your squabbling sir.
Historical accounting.
Quoting 3017amen
I have no idea what this means? You are telling me that a historical person is God and you know this because you read it in old documents?
See what I mean? Many atheist put a lot of emotional energy into their belief system, drop f-bombs frequently, etc.. Emotions are good, but unfortunately, for many of them it seems to be manifested in a bad way. Usually something traumatic has happened in their past. I certainly get that... .
Should we call it "resentment" or should we feel pity for them? I'm an atheist and I can't help feeling sorry for us. If a God exists, humanity still has a purpose; if not, we need to construct a purpose - and humanity has great difficulty in creating purposes for itself -.
Sorry, I'll not quote you anymore in these cases. Thank you for clarifying.
We agree.
Lol, no Im not. I was just curious about whether or not your adamancy about defining “god” before discussing has ever actually resulted in a definition that you were not atheistic about. I'm not sure why you are so hostile, it was just an honest question. No reason not to be a lady.
Thank you I appreciate that.
It has something to do with the past. Usually, it relates to past events as well as the memory, discovery, collection, organization, presentation, and interpretation of information about these events. It includes using historical sources such as written documents, oral accounts, ecological markers, and material objects including art and artifacts.
Debating which narrative best explains an event, as well as the significance of different causes and effects, more or less has an element of subjective truth to it. You know, kinda like climate change.
But with respect to the OP, any thoughts on your "negation" belief system and/or associated logic?
You have not made your position clear. You claim that Jesus is God. You know this how specifically?
I personally don't have a problem with deism or pantheism. These live in the same world as atheism.
Yes there's a lot of emotional baggage for sure.
As a Christian Existentialist myself, I get the whole nihilist deal. But it's just yet another paradox to resolve. For example, there is something and not nothing. What that something is, and what that nothing is, is a matter of intrigue viz. self-aware conscious beings.
In my opinion the most persuasive or consistent thing an atheist can say is no-thing. However, that in itself presents yet another irony/paradox to resolve...
Through the study of history as I mentioned.
What was it specifically about this study that gave you the knowledge that Jesus is God?
Inductive reasoning.
But with respect to the OP, any thoughts on your "negation" belief system and/or associated logic?
Alright, thanks. Now im curious why you responded with such hostility lol
Did you think I was being disingenuous?
The only thing I can deduce from your evasion is that you know very well you cannot sustain your fantastic claims. I have attempted to engage you on more than one occasion. The burden of proof is not something that can be shifted by the desperate need to get out from underneath it.
@3017amen is trying to engage your argument right now and you're articulating your lines to avoid going back to your starting point, which you know to be founded on no basis.
Where I bear the burden of proof there it is my responsibility to sustain and clarify my position. I do not bear the burden of proof for the fantastic claim that Jesus is God. Those who reject this standard can themselves be rejected without standards. End of story.
"Revolutionary Humanism" ladies and gentlemen.
Case study A:
Y – God exists (credible idea???)
X – God does not exist
Case study B:
Y – God does not exist (credible idea???)
X – God exists
In both cases, the problem is the word “credible”. Maybe is too fancy
No. That's formalism/ logico deductive reasoning not inductive reasoning.
With respect to the former, and with respect to the OP, any thoughts on your "negation" belief system and/or associated logic?
On what "basis" are you referring?
Quoting 3017amen
He lost his point when he evaded your questioning. This evasion has no basis in this discussion.
Imagine that!
LOL
:lol:
It isn't itself a proposition.
If someone asked you if you thought Big Bird was the most likely explanation of the beginning of the universe, your answer would (hopefully) be no. You aren't proposing anything by rejecting that claim. So I don't think your X,Y example works.
Atheism only addresses the claims of theism. Atheism is a hypothetical 'reaction' of varying degrees to theism's existing claims of (X, Y, Z).
But theism shares claims with others, hence, the and then some. I find it inconsistent to be an "atheist" about theism, but not about deism and pantheism, for instance - as both of them assert the same claims of creationism.
(1) Theistic claims (X, Y, Z).
(2) Atheism is a response - reaction to - theistic claims, theism itself is falsified by it's claims.
(3) (X, Y, Z) claims are not unique to theism.
(4) One can have an A-theist 'reaction' about unique claims of similar fashion, all which are (X, Y, Z).
"Atheists" can exist in practice with or without 'theism' so long as X, Y, Z claims exist. The label is not really relevant.