Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Why do some Christians hate some other Christians (e.g. Catholics vs Protestants)? Why do some Muslims hate some other Muslims (e.g. Sunni vs Shia)?

Narcissism of small differences.

And scapegoating disciplines the sect / tribe (Girard).

Besides, early evangelists couldn't proselytize to Roman citizens that an official of Rome had lynched the very Lord who would "save" them, so the propaganda (Gospels) had to blame the "Jewish mob" - thus, by extension all Jews in perpetuity - of "deicide" that had exhorted Pilate to "Crucify him!" (i.e. blood libel)

Muslim antisemitism merely plagiarizes Christian antisemitism. Such is history.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

The Christian line is that Jesus altered Judaism (abolishing the "law", forgiving sins, and demanding faith in him) and welcomed non-Jews into the fold, while non-Christian Jews rejected him and his message - and even had him killed.

I don't know much about Muslim alleged hatred of Jews. I know that many Muslims resent the theft of Palestine for a Jewish homeland, but that's relatively recent.

There's a billion reasons for this. Historically, Jews were excluded from many professions but one of the professions that they were allowed to do was money-lending which of course got them very popular. /s

In New York today we're seeing a very sad phenomenon; Hasidic Jews are big targets because of certain unfair practices that they're accused of but also because of how insular they're accused of being. They're also extremely visible. If you looked at Nazi propaganda there's a similarity here: Jews are portrayed as being insular, only caring about themselves, and from there the Nazis additionally portray them as dirty and just a general blight upon humanity.

I see some of this rhetoric echoed today in reddit threads. Not so much the "dirty" part, but certainly the part about Jews being insular, not caring about anyone else except themselves, being unfair landlords etc. and that these attacks are basically just "punching up." It's interesting because no one is really justifying the attacks, they just claim to be "providing context."

For the record, I was raised a secular Jew and I can tell you that secular Jews tend to avoid Hasidic Jews. Very interesting debate about this going on within the Jewish community between those who support the Hasids and those who don't.

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

I doubt any conservative and bigotry-inclined Christians or Muslims would like Jesus very much if he were alive. So there's that.

Darn brown-skinned, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart, long-haired, sandal-wearing hippie!

They all worship a version of Jesus that is a projection of their own worldview and desires, and not necessarily the Jesus portrayed in the Bible or even through historical analysis.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Jesus was a Jew.

Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

There's a paradox here. Set aside all the politics that has now suffused the middle-east with people dying on both sides of the dividing line and consider only the religious aspect of the issue. The only reason I can think of for jew-hating is that the jews killed the son of god or a prophet, your pick. However, quite oddly, these same jew-haters also believe that Jesus died for our sins, as if to say that Jesus was destined for death and only by dying could he redeem the sins of humanity. Ergo, all of us should actually appreciate the jews for offing Jesus for they did so by the will of god. Wouldn't you love a person who would take up the infinitely horrible task of killing by torture no less a person than the son of god and that too so that you may be redeemed for your sins?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Jesus was a Jew. Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

Why do some Buddhists and Hindus hate Jews? Why do some Buddhists and Hindus hate Tengrists? Hate is a common feature in humanity. Even Christians either tremendously dislike others even if they for whatever reason claim not "hate" others. anger, dislike and hate is a spectrum.

Quoting 180 Proof

Besides, early evangelists couldn't proselytize to Roman citizens that an official of Rome had lynched the very Lord who would "save" them, so the propaganda (Gospels) had to blame the "Jewish mob" - thus, by extension all Jews in perpetuity - of "deicide" who extorted Pilate to "Crucify him!" (i.e. blood libel)

Muslim antisemitism merely plagiarizes Christian antisemitism. Such is history.

what a bunch of crap.

Quoting Relativist

The Christian line is that Jesus altered Judaism (abolishing the "law", forgiving sins, and demanding faith in him) and welcomed non-Jews into the fold, while non-Christian Jews rejected him and his message - and even had him killed.

actually Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it and in fact he went on to say that not a "tittle" of the law would be undermined until some distant future event. Many christians feel there are no negative repercussions for just about ignoring both the old testament as well as the new testament. From the 4th commandment to turning the other cheek, modern christians do a great job of saying they can do what they want as as long as they comply with R.I.N.O politics.

I'm not saying they aren't saved but in compliance with 1st Corinthians chapter 3 they aren't doing very well.

Some Jews hate Christians. Some Christians hate Jews. And some of group A hates group B.

Reply to 180 Proof

Some (keyword some) of Group A hates all of group B. Insert any group into A and any group into B.

Quoting 180 Proof

Narcissism of small differences.

I once asked my (Jehova's witness) grandmother why she thought all the other churches were wrong...

She said "because they think Jesus died on a cross!"....

"So what" was my response...

"If they're wrong about that then they're probably wrong about other things too"...

And so I became an atheist within the decade..

Reply to VagabondSpectre :up:

Quoting christian2017

actually Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it and in fact he went on to say that not a "tittle" of the law would be undermined until some distant future event.

That's what the author of Matthew (whoever that may have been) claimed Jesus said, but I don't think any Christians today keep kosher. Even Paul, writing before Matthew, believed it unnecessary.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Why do some Christians and Muslims hate Jews?

When it comes to Christians, it's because of the Bible.

Matthew 27:24-25

So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man’s blood;[a] see to it yourselves.” 25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

It's one the most obnoxious and absolutely disgusting things in the Holy Bible. Not only a totally absurd statement that crowd would ever give, but also the white-washing of the "real killers" of Jesus, the Romans, is really simply politics. At least in merit of the Bible, there are other versions of the life of Jesus, and nobody else recollects such absurd things to have happened I think. But Christians do stick to Matthew on this.

I guess it wouldn't have been a great way to try to spread Christianity in a ROMAN empire by stating that "Oh btw you killed our Messiah, so you what you have done is Deicide. But feel free to join us. ".

With the Muslims,

Mohammed turned first to the Jews, because obviously he did have the same God in mind (that's why Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called Abrahamic Religions). They weren't interested. So that among other things, it didn't turn well either.

Quoting ssu

When it comes to Christians, it's because of the Bible.

It used to be. Nowadays it's because of 'Israel' and the various unpleasant Zionist activities and actions. The zionists desperately try to associate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, desperately assisted by the British tory press as part of its smear campaign against Mr Corbyn. Some mugs really fall for it, I suppose, though most are just pretending.

Quoting 180 Proof

Besides, early evangelists couldn't proselytize to Roman citizens that an official of Rome had lynched the very Lord who would "save" them, so the propaganda (Gospels) had to blame the "Jewish mob" - thus, by extension all Jews in perpetuity - of "deicide" who extorted Pilate to "Crucify him!" (i.e. blood libel)

Muslim antisemitism merely plagiarizes Christian antisemitism. Such is history.

Good points.

With the Christian hatred, as others pointed out, it is the deicide charge in Matthew and John mainly. As a complete atheist and historically-minded person (not theological/propagandist history) on this, what I see that happened was a basically ethnic-tribal religion (Judaism) had its own mythological history and set of laws. People such as Paul of Tarsus used the platform of this obscure Jewish figure (Jesus) to make a new sort of ideology whereby the Jewish god comes in the form of a man (or son of man or son of god or some variant of all three), and is "sacrificed" for your sins. Thus, somehow the old tribal Mosaic law is no longer necessary and thus anyone who is not of the tribal religion is "saved" by this event if they "believe". Besides the fact that this is all nonsense horseshit made up in ancient times, what it effectively did was steal a tribal religion's historical myths and then PERSECUTED the very people who invented them for not following their own tribal historical myths correctly. Think about this.. This is CRAZY. It is as if an Englishman or a Frenchman came into China and said, "Hey we REALLY understand Confucius better than you Chinese do!". Are you nuts?? You cannot steal a culture's myths, change their meaning and then kill off the original copywriters to make your "twist" on it legitimate. The same can be said happened in Islam. Jewish historical-myths were taken, changed to fit an Arabian setting and then when local Arabian Jews were like, "That's not how the stories go.." he got angry and turned against them. This along with other politics of tribal affiliations and political alliances, etc.

What was probably the case was Jesus fit very firmly in his cultural context of 1st century Judea. Based on his sayings and his outward focus, he was probably a radical or reformist Pharisee (focused on the margins of society and intent behind the law). He had his own opinions on Mosaic law (as there was no INTERPRETATION of the law codified yet in anything like a Talmud, at least for the Pharisee sect). Also, he was probably an apocalyptic Pharisee which made him unusual as most Pharisees were "wait and see". They knew too much focus on End of Times would get people killed by Roman authority. Thus by going to the "Lost Sheep of Israel" and getting them to be what he thought was better Jews, he thought the hastening of the Kingdom of God would occur. He probably incorporated that part from the same ideas as John the Baptist who came right before him. When he went to Jerusalem, he probably thought the Kingdom of God was literally going to start happening, and he was going to do some miraculous event. I have a feeling, the most historical lines in the whole New Testament was, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" If not whitewashed, that actually indicates that he really thought hew as going to get something done to change things and this didn't happen. Pontius Pilate (noted by Josephus and Roman historians as overly ruthless, even for Rome) had him crucified, like almost every other Jewish claimant to be the Jewish king. Oh, it didn't help it happened on Passover, the very holiday that Rome looks for Jewish "freedom fighters" and messianic claimants because it was a holiday revolving around liberation from a foreign culture (mythological Exodus story).. Rome knew this and acted swiftly. At that time, the High Priests and the Temple priests in general were in the pockets of Rome and were essentially their lackeys, helping them keep "order". This all makes sense. Jews that were of the radical Pharisee sort, Apocalyptic types, One -off Messiah claimants, Essenes, and Zealots would be not looked upon kindly if they acted up against Rome or Temple Priestly authority.

Anyways, a couple decades later, Paul's ideas of the death/resurrection of Jesus set the stage for Replacement Theology.. whereby the "new" Israel were believers in Jesus. Interestingly, early Gentile Christianity represented by people like Marcion wanted to completely detach from the "Old Testament" as he thought it might even be a separate god. However, in Roman society, ancient cultures were deemed more legitimate than "new age" innovations. Thus, early gentile Christians realized that to spread the theology of Paul (Jesus died for your sins), they NEEDED to attach the idea to a culture that was more ancient (Judean/Jewish culture) to have it seen as more legitimate amongst the converts around the Mediterranean. So, this is what the early "Church Fathers" did and succeeded in converting most gentiles to the new religion by the year 400 CE. Thus, the original Jewish Jesus sect died out basically in those first couple centuries. The Pauline gentile variant spread. With the idea of Replacement Theology, Jews were considered to be stubbornly "wrong" in interpreting their own religion. They needed to be persecuted to be corrected. Then of course the whitewashing of Jesus' death so that they are deemed as "Christ-killers" etc. This made Judaism even more insular as it needed to protect itself from interference and persecution. The rest is history. That hatred permeated in various forms throughout history up until the 20th and 21st century. So in the end it is the very basis of Christianity (Replacement Theology) to "kill" the original copywriters and "correct" that culture's own ideas about its mythological history. Again, that's crazy.

Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef would no doubt (if he were not himself most probably a myth) approve of the following Not-So-Good News:

Quoting schopenhauer1

With the Christian hatred, as others pointed out, it is the deicide charge in Matthew and John mainly. As a complete atheist and historically-minded person (not theological/propagandist history) on this, what I see that happened was a basically ethnic-tribal religion (Judaism) had its own mythological history and set of laws. People such as Paul of Tarsus used the platform of this obscure Jewish figure (Jesus) to make a new sort of ideology whereby the Jewish god comes in the form of a man (or son of man or son of god or some variant of all three), and is "sacrificed" for your sins. Thus, somehow the old tribal Mosaic law is no longer necessary and thus anyone who is not of the tribal religion is "saved" by this event if they "believe". Besides the fact that this is all nonsense horseshit made up in ancient times, what it effectively did was steal a tribal religion's historical myths and then PERSECUTED the very people who invented them for not following their own tribal historical myths correctly.

[ ... ]

You cannot steal a culture's myths, change their meaning and then kill off the original copywriters to make your "twist" on it legitimate. The same can be said happened in Islam. Jewish historical-myths were taken, changed to fit an Arabian setting and then when local Arabian Jews were like, "That's not how the stories go.." he got angry and turned against them. This along with other politics of tribal affiliations and political alliances, etc.

What was probably the case was Jesus fit very firmly in his cultural context of 1st century Judea. Based on his sayings and his outward focus, he was probably a radical or reformist Pharisee (focused on the margins of society and intent behind the law). He had his own opinions on Mosaic law (as there was no INTERPRETATION of the law codified yet in anything like a Talmud, at least for the Pharisee sect). Also, he was probably an apocalyptic Pharisee which made him unusual as most Pharisees were "wait and see". They knew too much focus on End of Times would get people killed by Roman authority. Thus by going to the "Lost Sheep of Israel" and getting them to be what he thought was better Jews, he thought the hastening of the Kingdom of God would occur. He probably incorporated that part from the same ideas as John the Baptist who came right before him. When he went to Jerusalem, he probably thought the Kingdom of God was literally going to start happening, and he was going to do some miraculous event. I have a feeling, the most historical lines in the whole New Testament was, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" If not whitewashed, that actually indicates that he really thought hew as going to get something done to change things and this didn't happen. Pontius Pilate (noted by Josephus and Roman historians as overly ruthless, even for Rome) had him crucified, like almost every other Jewish claimant to be the Jewish king. Oh, it didn't help it happened on Passover, the very holiday that Rome looks for Jewish "freedom fighters" and messianic claimants because it was a holiday revolving around liberation from a foreign culture (mythological Exodus story).. Rome knew this and acted swiftly. At that time, the High Priests and the Temple priests in general were in the pockets of Rome and were essentially their lackeys, helping them keep "order". This all makes sense. Jews that were of the radical Pharisee sort, Apocalyptic types, One -off Messiah claimants, Essenes, and Zealotswould be not looked upon kindly if they acted up against Rome or Temple Priestly authority.

Anyways, a couple decades later, Paul's ideas of the death/resurrection of Jesus set the stage for Replacement Theology.. whereby the "new" Israel were believers in Jesus. Interestingly, early Gentile Christianity represented by people like Marcion wanted to completely detach from the "Old Testament" as he thought it might even be a separate god. However, in Roman society, ancient cultures were deemed more legitimate than "new age" innovations. Thus, early gentile Christians realized that to spread the theology of Paul (Jesus died for your sins), they NEEDED to attach the idea to a culture that was more ancient (Judean/Jewish culture) to have it seen as more legitimate amongst the converts around the Mediterranean. So, this is what the early "Church Fathers" did and succeeded in converting most gentiles to the new religion by the year 400 CE. Thus, the original Jewish Jesus sect died out basically in those first couple centuries. The Pauline gentile variant spread. With the idea of Replacement Theology, Jews were considered to be stubbornly "wrong" in interpreting their own religion. They needed to be persecuted to be corrected. Then of course the whitewashing of Jesus' death so that they are deemed as "Christ-killers" etc. This made Judaism even more insular as it needed to protect itself from interference and persecution. The rest is history. That hatred permeated in various forms throughout history up until the 20th and 21st century. So in the end it is the very basis of Christianity (Replacement Theology) to "kill" the original copywriters and "correct" that culture's own ideas about its mythological history.

A. fuckin'. Men, schop! :clap: :clap: :clap: Hallelujah.

Quoting Relativist

The Christian line is that Jesus altered Judaism (abolishing the "law",

They seem to have ignored that Jesus said he came to fulfill the law.

Tribalism clouds/ignores perceptions.

Regards
DL

Reply to BitconnectCarlos

On your insular point.

I saw a study of European cities, but this applies to most cities, and how they are laid out.

It showed that most cities have quarters and sections where various races, including Jews, congregate.
Italian quarters, French, Muslims etc.

We are all insular and tribal to a fault, if we consider the education levels of the general population.

Regards
DL

Quoting Artemis

They all worship a version of Jesus

Yes. The Jesus that hates all those they hate.

That is why they love their version.

Regards
DL

Quoting TheMadFool

Wouldn't you love a person who would take up the infinitely horrible task of killing by torture no less a person than the son of god and that too so that you may be redeemed for your sins?

The religious ignore that God chose Jesus to die even before the earth was created. That's scripture.

When they want some other scenario, they are too stupid to recognize that to change things would derail their god's master plan. That paradox is present in Adam's sin. Christians call it our fall, yet sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Seems god planned our fall yet Christians blame man for it.

Regards
DL

Reply to christian2017

Hate is indeed a human trait. So is love, and we default to love as our first instinct for survival. The hate is passed up from the bigoted peers.

IOWs, the religious feed the hate to maintain their tribal differences.

A poor religious trait seen in the worst of religions and mostly absent in the religions that seek knowledge and wisdom instead of imaginary supernatural gods.

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

actually Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it

I agree.

Christians tend to ignore that a big part of that law is that we all take responsibility and punishment for our sins.

They ignore that justice to keep ridding their scapegoat Jesus and they want him to break many Jewish laws.

They are self serving and not Jesus serving. Christians who use Jesus as a scapegoat are quite immoral.

Regards
DL

Quoting ssu

When it comes to Christians, it's because of the Bible.

I agree but that is because the lying preachers do not show the truth of things. If the liars would speak the truth, things would be a lot better.

You will never hear a Christian explain why Yahweh chose a remedy for sin before he even invented the earth and the opportunity for us to sin, --- if his plan did not include sin.

Christians point to our free will but that ignores god own free will that made him insure that most of us ended in hell.

Regards
DL

Reply to Relativist
The Jewish court which sentenced Jesus had no temporal powers. The Romans were the ones who crucified Jesus, probably because they considered him as a potential rebel. Suggest you study the history of the Jewish rebellion against the Roman rule.

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop How does God ensure that most will end in hell?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

They seem to have ignored that Jesus said he came to fulfill the law.

How do you know Jesus actually said that? I presume it's because "Matthew" attributes those words to Jesus. However it's very possibly an apologetic invention by "Matthew" to convey his view that Mosaic law was to continue to be followed.

If you choose to believe everything in the Gospels is true, that's religious faith. You are free to believe whatever you like, but obviously YOUR faith isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't share it.

Quoting matt

How does God ensure that most will end in hell?

In the book of his myth, the bible, it is written that Yahweh decides by the hardening of hearts and minds who will believe and be saved and who will end in hell for non-belief.

I put this old O.P. below to show some references. Opine on it if you like.

====================

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

Reply to Relativist Quoting Relativist

How do you know Jesus actually said that?

All that the supernaturally based religions have to offer are lies and speculative nonsense about god.

I am not a literalist but write to engage them and I have to use their ball to play on their field.

Quoting Relativist

but obviously YOUR faith isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't share it.

Only it my interlocutor is unconcerned with his moral soul and wants to continue to idol worship a genocidal and infanticidal prick of a god.

Many follow the satanic gods and you are right that just knowing their gods are pricks will no have them leave the comfort of their immoral tribes.

Regards
DL

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Relativist
How do you know Jesus actually said that?
— Relativist

All that the supernaturally based religions have to offer are lies and speculative nonsense about god.

I am not a literalist but write to engage them and I have to use their ball to play on their field

You didn't answer my question. How do you know Jesus said that?

FYI, I do not believe there exists an "immortal soul".

Reply to Jacob-B :up: Amen.

Quoting Relativist

You didn't answer my question. How do you know Jesus said that?

FYI, I do not believe there exists an "immortal soul".

Good. There is no evidence or proof of such a concept.

I do not even know if a supernatural Jesus ever lived and I attribute all that the scribes put into his mouth as their own biased words.

This is more like what I think of the history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

Regards
DL

Reply to Relativist

Some Christians do keep Kosher considering the way many animals were killed at the turn of the 19th Century is concerned. Kosher laws were somewhat but not drastically altered in the New Testament. Essentially Kosher laws did not change in the New Testament except for being allowed to eat Pork (no blood though) and Lobster. Feel free to educate yourself on this before assuming you are all that knowledgable in the matter.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Hate is indeed a human trait. So is love, and we default to love as our first instinct for survival. The hate is passed up from the bigoted peers.

IOWs, the religious feed the hate to maintain their tribal differences.

A poor religious trait seen in the worst of religions and mostly absent in the religions that seek knowledge and wisdom instead of imaginary supernatural gods.

Regards
DL

To some extent i agree with that. There is alot to be desired in modern Christianity.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

A poor religious trait seen in the worst of religions and mostly absent in the religions that seek knowledge and wisdom instead of imaginary supernatural gods.

Well i disagree to a large extent that they are imaginary. Theres no use arguing over that aspect.

As for hate, anger and hate are a spectrum. Its alright to defend the lives of our children. To not care for our children shows that we have an apathetic soul.

Quoting christian2017

To some extent i agree with that. There is alot to be desired in modern Christianity.

Like what, given that they are still a homophobic and misogynous and refuse to grant all souls equality the way Jesus did?

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

Well i disagree to a large extent that they are imaginary. Theres no use arguing over that aspect.

As for hate, anger and hate are a spectrum. Its alright to defend the lives of our children. To not care for our children shows that we have an apathetic soul.

Correct. Only fools will argue for a supernatural realm that they can know nothing about.

As to children, and here I am looking at the world in total and the U.N. 10 year warning,

We are clearly showing as ma species that we will not defend the lives of our children as we are giving them a corrupted environment to live and likely die in.

That not caring for our children shows that we collectively have apathetic souls.

Regards
DL

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

What religion or philosophy grants all souls equality?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Correct. Only fools will argue for a supernatural realm that they can know nothing about.

As to children, and here I am looking at the world in total and the U.N. 10 year warning,

We are clearly showing as ma species that we will not defend the lives of our children as we are giving them a corrupted environment to live and likely die in.

That not caring for our children shows that we collectively have apathetic souls.

Regards
DL

brb

Quoting christian2017

Feel free to educate yourself on this before assuming you are all that knowledgable in the matter.

Jeez! All I said was, " I don't think any Christians today keep kosher. ". When someone says, "I think...", that's a good sign they aren't claiming to be "all that knowledgable". But thanks for setting me straihht on that issue. Next time I'll say "most Christians do not keep kosher."

Quoting 180 Proof

A. fuckin'. Men, schop! :clap: :clap: :clap: Hallelujah.

Thank you! You highlighted and emphasized all the major points too. I like that :grin: .

Reply to Relativist

thats fair.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Correct. Only fools will argue for a supernatural realm that they can know nothing about.

As to children, and here I am looking at the world in total and the U.N. 10 year warning,

We are clearly showing as ma species that we will not defend the lives of our children as we are giving them a corrupted environment to live and likely die in.

That not caring for our children shows that we collectively have apathetic souls.

Regards

What do you mean die in? If a child lives to be 80 or even 22 that is different then if they die at 10 or 5. Not on my watch. Over my dead body.

Reply to schopenhauer1 YW. Just wanted to make sure our resident Bible/Qur'an-thumpers & woo-pimps didn't miss those points of yours which I think are worth emphasizing. :up:

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

The religious ignore that God chose Jesus to die even before the earth was created. That's scripture.

When they want some other scenario, they are too stupid to recognize that to change things would derail their god's master plan. That paradox is present in Adam's sin. Christians call it our fall, yet sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Seems god planned our fall yet Christians blame man for it.

It's a very convenient setup (for god). All the good there is in the world is part of god's plan and all the bad that there is is our fault inspite of the fact that everything must be god's doing.

Quoting Jacob-B

The Jewish court which sentenced Jesus had no temporal powers. The Romans were the ones who crucified Jesus, probably because they considered him as a potential rebel. Suggest you study the history of the Jewish rebellion against the Roman rule.

I'm familiar with that. I was referring to the evolution of story of Pilate's sentencing Jesus to death. Over time, blame is increasingly shifted from Pilate to that Jewish public. A key point is that only in Gospel of Matthew (which came later than Mark and used Mark as a source) does Pilate wash his hands, and declare that he is innocent of Jesus’ blood, while the Jewish crowd (all the crowd, not just the leaders) cry out those infamous words, “His blood be upon us and our children” (Matt 27:25). That sort of thing is a plausible seed for eventual anti-Semitism.

Nevertheless, the evolution of anti-Semitism is more complicated than that. A few years ago, I read John Gager's "The Origin of Anti-Semitism", and he lays out a good bit of historical context to support his theory for developing anti-Semitism. The above is a small factor, but moreso is the competition that grew between Jews and Christians in the second and third centuries. I honestly don't remember a lot of detail, since its been awhile, but it does seem an excellent source for anyone interested in learing about the earliest roots of anti-Semitism.

Quoting christian2017

What religion or philosophy grants all souls equality?

Gnostic Christianity for one. We have tied equality righteousness.

Here is the older explanation from Gnostic sources.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

I see the same in the bible but Christians do not believe in the equality of souls the way we do.

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

What do you mean die in?

I mean, ----- look at our eco system.

Would you like to see and live in what is coming, in terms of extinction and ecological hardship for yourself?

Not likely and here we are collectively continuing to make things worse.

Regards
DL

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

He calls all to repentance. You must be reborn to enter the kingdom of God. God's foreknowledge and man's freewill aren't mutually exclusive.

Quoting matt

He calls all to repentance.

I did not hear the genocidal Yahweh repent for his own mass murders and genocides so my repenting for being and doing exactly what god created me to be and do I do not repent of. I had no free will, which is confirmed by the bible.

Quoting matt

You must be reborn to enter the kingdom of God.

I have been. Have you? Where did Jesus say the kingdom was? Right here on earth. Right?

We are in heaven, as Jesus said, but most, like you, do not see it. I do.

Regards
DL

Quoting matt

God's foreknowledge and man's freewill aren't mutually exclusive.

Your own scriptures say that we do not have a free will to believe or not. The bible says god decides for us.

Here is the longer version.

---------------

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

Quoting TheMadFool

everything must be god's doing.

Christianity preaches that using a scapegoat is moral and ok.

If god is in our image, he too will use a scapegoat and be as evil as humans who do not take responsibility for their own actions.

God says. The invention is defective, burn it.

I say, god makes defective souls and then blames them for being defective. Burn Yahweh.

Regards
DL

Quoting Artemis

Darn brown-skinned, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart, long-haired, sandal-wearing hippie!

"Old Sam, he couldn't belielve he and Jesus war both Jews... he a Jew? how can be? With long hair, and a Mexican name?" "I said, hey, Abe... take a walk on the Kosher side... I said, Hey, Abe, take a walk down Fairfax... etc." -- Gefilte Joe and the Fish, "Take a Walk on the Kosher Side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyO18WIztts

And the lyricsh for those who are hasidically challenged:
Yakov quit the westside AZA (*Aleph Zadik Aleph).
Went 'cross town and joined YMCA (*Young Men's Christian Assoc).
Soon bacon and pork he began to enjoy.
Took off his yarmulke, the yid was a goy.
I said hey Yakov? Take a walk on the kosher side.
I said hey nudnik! Take a walk down Fairfax...
And the members of Hadassah go...
(harmonizing)

Herschel was shocked when he heard the news.
He couldn’t believe that he and Jesus both were Jews.
He said "how can we be the same
when this longhair’s got a Mexican name?"
I said hey Hersch! Take a walk on the kosher side.
I said hey kid! Take a walk down Fairfax!

Abe Horovitz wanted to star in picture shows
so he straightened his hair, capped his teeth, and fixed his nose.
Changed his name to Lash LaRue,
and talked of the pride of being a Jew.
I said hey Abe? Take a walk on the kosher side.
I said hey whatever your name is, take a walk down Fairfax.

Little Katz was taking his bar mitzvah lesson.
Across the street a shiksa was undressin'.
Then one day to the rabbi's surprise
Katz was showin' her where he was circumcised.
I said hey Katzie...take a walk on the kosher side
Hey, nudnik? Take a walk down Fairfax.

Burned from my personal copy for historical purposes only. And commentary... please with the commentary, already!

My mother's sister, an old Jewish woman, now dead, taught me the art of Jewish humour, which is wise and sometimes totally self-depracating. (That's a lingual improvement just for show; (forgot the word that covers that meaning); it was started as "decrapating", but some learned and better-knowing people of political correctness adjusted the consonants some centuries ago.)

She even tought me the song, a modern one, big in the nineteen-seventies that went something like this:

"The Tamils hate the Hindus, and the Hindus hate the Muslims, and the Christians hate the heathens, and the Heathens hate the buddhist... but everybody hates the Jews."

I find this extremely funny, but only until, of course, when I actually encounter someone or some expression that spreads hatred against Jews. Then my blood boils.

But the modern Jew-hatred can be traced back to Israel as being the darling of the USA. There are tons of reasons why people hate the external politics of the USA and by extension, the state of Israel.

And of course Israel was teetering on the verge of extinction in the Yom Kippur war, and it should have perished if you only count the military power that came agaisnt it. By some miracle, and because they were defending their homeland, they repelled the attackers.

And every Jew is vehemently blood-thirsty when it comes to the question of Israel. It is understandable if you think that a nation had no homeland for two thousand years, then they got it back, and all of a sudden some want to take it away from them yet still again.

Then there is the Palestinian and resident Arab population that hate the Israelis and vice versa. For this I don't blame the Palestinians alone. Israel ought to have behaved better there. And now that relationship has developed into an eternal, never-ending feud, not war, not terrorism, but blood feud. Both parties believe in the truth of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and therefore they are forever knocking each other's eyes and teeth out, most times verbatim, and other times only figuratively.

This is an untenable situation that has been created for Israel and for the Palestinians, by both sides. And both sides have the right and the wrong reasons to fight. And it can't be stopped now.

And of course the world always sides with the underdog. Israel is the guilty one now, is everyone's opinion now. But in 1972 Israel was the saint, because it was the underdog then.

You just can't win, can you. "You" meaning the general you.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Christianity preaches that using a scapegoat is moral and ok.

Don't get me started on scapegoats. I'm not surprised that the only facial hair that suits me is a goatee.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Burn Yahweh.

I wouldn't do that. Poor guy. He's taking a lot of flak in this day and age and if he does exist I admire his self-control. No global flood seems to be on the cards.

Speaking for myself, I'm going to take care of my goatee and contemplate on the nature of scapegoatism, probably until I die in some horrible way. Do you think a goatee would look good on a corpse?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Gnostic Christianity for one. We have tied equality righteousness.

Here is the older explanation from Gnostic sources.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

I see the same in the bible but Christians do not believe in the equality of souls the way we do.

Regards
DL

Gnostics don't believe that. Your parsing words.

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

Globalism is a bigger issue than the environment.

Quoting TheMadFool

Do you think a goatee would look good on a corpse?

Well trimmed, sure.

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

Gnostics don't believe that. Your parsing words.

We are Universalists with a heaven but no hell.

Only a loser of a god would have to destroy his own works for not doing as programmed.
Even worse when scriptures say that only a few of us are worthy of his genocidal and infanticidal standards.

I take it you did not follow my link and are quite happy with your genocidal prick of a god.

Nice that you can ignore his satanic morals and ethics.

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

Globalism is a bigger issue than the environment.

I do not think we can cooperate enough as a world against climate change without globalizing more. One goes with the other.

Regards
DL

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Well trimmed, sure.

Thanks. Anyway, to get back to where I digressed, I don't think there are such things as defective souls. Are you suggesting that some are just born bad or good? Where does that leave responsibility for one's own actions? Would you say you're responsible for your looks, something totally beyond your control? No. Similarly, if souls could be defective or flawless then there really is no point in differentiating the good from the bad in any non-trivial sense.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

Only a loser of a god would have to destroy his own works for not doing as programmed.

:up:

Quoting TheMadFool

I don't think there are such things as defective souls.

Yet the vast majority of us are not good enough to get to heaven with the few who are good enough. I call the losers, you and I, defective souls. Be liberal with my analogy.

Quoting TheMadFool

Are you suggesting that some are just born bad or good?

Scriptures say that god hated Esau in the womb before he could even sin.

Quoting TheMadFool

Where does that leave responsibility for one's own actions?

Biblically speaking, we have no responsibility as Jesus took care of that for believers and the non-believers as scriptures again say, have had their hearts hardened by god and are part of the defective/damned to hell crowd.

God denies us all our free will. That's scripture.

------------------

Let me go long on this last.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

Quoting 180 Proof

542

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop I'm not certain whether we have free will or not but if god is, as the religious claim, about morality then it seems necessary that he grant it to us. Heaven and hell would become meaningless since the deal is good folks go to heaven and bad people go to hell and deciding who is good or bad depends on what choices a person makes on his own accord i.e. free will is necessary.

If you still say that we don't have free will then we're nothing more than toys in the hands of an all-powerful being - just following orders but under the illusion that we're doing it voluntarily.

Is this the kind of picture you want to paint of the world? If the answer is "yes" then it's a very melancholy view of the world: a god who's apparently capable of evil and we being automatons. Not a world anyone would like to live in unless, of course, you're among the group chosen to visit paradise.

Quoting TheMadFool

I'm not certain whether we have free will or not

We have a free will that is limited to physics and nature. I may wish to fly but physics says no.

A free will within the bounds I set is demonstrable and can even be tested to prove.

Scriptures though say that god hardens hearts, or not, against or for individuals as he chooses who he will grace with faith or belief and who he has chosen for hell and disbelief.

That goers to show how stupid on this the ancients were. They wrote that we are the dreaded robots.

Regards
DL

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

ok. i'll probably follow the link later.

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

i don't believe climate change is caused by people.

Quoting christian2017

i don't believe climate change is caused by people.

Because ...?

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

We have a free will that is limited to physics and nature. I may wish to fly but physics says no.

A free will within the bounds I set is demonstrable and can even be tested to prove.

Scriptures though say that god hardens hearts, or not, against or for individuals as he chooses who he will grace with faith or belief and who he has chosen for hell and disbelief.

That goers to show how stupid on this the ancients were. They wrote that we are the dreaded robots.

This view of the world is very grim. It provides no room for change, a criminal can't turn a new leaf and is condemned to not only act as he was forced to act and then to suffer punishment for that. It is unfair. What faith do you profess?

Quoting christian2017

i don't believe climate change is caused by people.

Then you are ignoring the findings of the vast majority of scientists on the planet.

You are as big of a fool on this as religion.

Regards
DL

Quoting TheMadFool

What faith do you profess?

I do not use the word faith. That word leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I use religion.

I am a Gnostic Christian as I have not found a better all inclusive universalist ideology.

Most others are homophobic and misogynous.

It has been said that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. It is a truth, IMO.

Regards
DL

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

It has been said that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. It is a truth, IMO.

:ok:

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop Goodness doesn't get you to heaven because we don't have any. As Jesus said, there is none good but God. We are only saved by grace and faith.

Reply to 180 Proof

brb. I'll post an article.

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

thanks

well christians and muslims likely hate jews fo the same reason they hate each other and the LGBTQ+ because of basic prejudice, they are different so they are less than you. I've also noticed that it isn't hate so much as it is they disregard jews as if they aren't important. please note that every claim i've made here is a generalization so it doesn't describe everyone but I believe it to be true for the most part.

Reply to 180 Proof

https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2014/02/18/5-scientific-reasons-that-global-warming-isnt-happening-n1796423

The Zionists love to qualify any criticism of the policies of the apartheidsstate of Israel towards the Palestinians as antisemitic racism. For example, if anybody believes that the Palestinian refugees should be allowed to go home, that person will automatically be deemed antisemitic. To cut a long story short, I personally believe that the partition of mandatory Palestine is an abomination.

By the way, there is also real antisemitism. That also exists. However, nowadays it is a relatively minor phenomenon.

Furthermore, Jewish victims of prejudice are not more deplorable than for example black people. On the contrary, while Jews do not necessarily have to disclose that they are Jews, "real" racial minorities simply cannot hide that fact.

Quoting matt

We are only saved by grace and faith.

Which, according to scriptures, are in god's control as we are denied a free will choice.

Quite the vile prick that Yahweh. Right?

I ran the following a while back. You might have missed it.

==================

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

Quoting sarah young

42

Thanks for this. I agree with the one-upmanship.

I have a number of links showing Muslims teaching their young children to hate and play act at killing Jews, --- so I cannot quite agree with your "disregard" word.

Regards
DL

Quoting christian2017

180 Proof

What % of climate scientists agree with you?

That should be all I need to ask you.

You are in a tiny minority.

Regards
DL

Quoting alcontali

954

I agree that we overuse and misapply labels.

Regards
DL

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop

I have a number of links showing Muslims teaching their young children to hate and play act at killing Jews, --- so I cannot quite agree with your "disregard" word.

I had never heard of this before, thank you for bringing new information to light, I also meant something more like thinking someone is worth less than you when i said disregard but that is a whole othe level

Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

ok.

Quoting sarah young

I had never heard of this before, thank you for bringing new information to light,

Always a pleasure to inform.

Regards
DL