On Misanthropy
I've lived for a good portion of my life as a recluse from society. My idealized dream is to live alone in some forest away from people and their enviousness, deceit, lack of trustworthiness, two-facedness, and whatever you can insert here. Yet, I have many issues that I have tried addressing and have a hard time coping. Put plain and simple, I don't like people. They are entitled complainers. Everyone has a mask that they put on. Perhaps, the Stoics were the masters of this social masquerade in being able to put on an iron mask of indifference and not show any complaint or ill-will towards other people. Yet, I don't really know how to put on such a mask. My face shows without artificial make-up or masks of indifference, anger, hostility, or dominance.
My psychologist once told me that the ego is a dominating force that compels us to act on our behalf. Yet, I am not dominant by nature. I find it hard to find reasons why I would want to feel dominative towards other people. Furthermore, there's nothing about me that wants to manipulate other people, and there's nothing in me that is prone to manipulation, because I have a keen mind in sensing such things, and I don't value anything apart from my peace of mind.
I have read and indulge in a fair share of philosophical pessimism and Schopenhauer. Reading Schopenhauer has relieved me in my loneliness, to understand that there were other people like me in life, and somehow made it through it. Another one of my favorites was Walden, by Henry David Thoreau. Having read it a while ago, I appreciated the fact that he chose to live in nature away from people and their misfortune. Now, not to give the impression that I am a complete misanthrope, I do value children, and honestly believe that they are our hope to a better future. They are caring, sincere, friendly, playful, and honest souls. I don't quite understand what happens in the psyche of a child that makes them become deceitful, treacherous, and mean-spirited; and think this is a tragedy worth addressing. Is it sex?
What do you say to the misanthrope, that I am? Cheer up, take some MDMA? Seek psychotherapy? I've tried many of these things; but, the misanthropy feels like it's getting more and more debilitating or increasing in magnitude in my ability to interact with other people.
My psychologist once told me that the ego is a dominating force that compels us to act on our behalf. Yet, I am not dominant by nature. I find it hard to find reasons why I would want to feel dominative towards other people. Furthermore, there's nothing about me that wants to manipulate other people, and there's nothing in me that is prone to manipulation, because I have a keen mind in sensing such things, and I don't value anything apart from my peace of mind.
I have read and indulge in a fair share of philosophical pessimism and Schopenhauer. Reading Schopenhauer has relieved me in my loneliness, to understand that there were other people like me in life, and somehow made it through it. Another one of my favorites was Walden, by Henry David Thoreau. Having read it a while ago, I appreciated the fact that he chose to live in nature away from people and their misfortune. Now, not to give the impression that I am a complete misanthrope, I do value children, and honestly believe that they are our hope to a better future. They are caring, sincere, friendly, playful, and honest souls. I don't quite understand what happens in the psyche of a child that makes them become deceitful, treacherous, and mean-spirited; and think this is a tragedy worth addressing. Is it sex?
What do you say to the misanthrope, that I am? Cheer up, take some MDMA? Seek psychotherapy? I've tried many of these things; but, the misanthropy feels like it's getting more and more debilitating or increasing in magnitude in my ability to interact with other people.
Comments (53)
Like what? Philosophy has become a part of my being. It would be like cutting a piece of myself off. You know, I have noticed your distaste for these kinds of topics posted by me and others like @schopenhauer1; but, you do have to understand that philosophical pessimism is also a respectable field of study into human nature. I don't quite get your gripe with it though. Maybe it doesn't conform to how you view philosophy?
Ok, I can relate to the forest dream. There's a wonderful state park only 4 miles away from our house, a 7 minute drive. I spend a LOT of time in the park when weather permits, and am enthusiastically awaiting the imminent arrival of the winter hiking season.
I can relate to the hermit thing too, though I'd put it somewhat differently.
Quoting Posty McPostface
1) As you know by now, what I could really relate to is some kind of specific action plan which moves you closer towards reaching your dream. Modest movement is ok, so long as it is actual movement.
2) Your post seems to suggest you are running away from people. I agree that many people merit running away from. However, I would suggest a shift of focus. Instead of a negative motivation, aim for a positive motivation. Make it less about what you are running away from, and more about what you are running towards. Which brings us to...
3) Do you spend time in the forest or other nature environments now? Whatever your current relationship with nature is, it would likely be worth your time to focus on enhancing it. This could easily be a thread of it's own, but a good place to start is simply to spend more time in whatever nature is available to you.
Quoting Posty McPostface
So for instance, this could be the first thing on the chopping block. Way less time with Schopenhauer, and way more time with chipmunks. Way less time with pessimism, way more time falling in love with reality. Way less of reading books, way more of watching clouds. Way less abstraction, way more of the real world.
Quoting Posty McPostface
We all need to bond with something, but it doesn't have to be people. If bonding with people isn't working out, we can become expert at bonding with something else.
Is philosophical pessimism working for you? Is it taking you towards the day when you won't bother posting on this topic any more because you've solved the problem and moved on to greener pastures?
Quoting Jake
How so?
Quoting Jake
Admittedly, I don't. Perhaps, I should work on that.
Quoting Jake
Well, I just ordered Schopenhauer's Will and Representation and his aphorisms, so I'm afraid that's a negative.
Quoting Jake
I don't know about the bonding part. I do like the aspects of simple living; yet, I'm still unwilling to commit.
I've somewhat grown accustomed to my predicament. My life is one of misery at my misfortune for being disabled. The psychodynamics of my situation is only coping with my distress now, which isn't appealing to me.
Forums are too often a hall of mirrors; they lack the experiential dimension of philosophy. Even though there are many different voices, it is all mediated through the same format. Whereas philosophy is therapy, in an important sense. Actually there was a Jewish sect, called the Therapeutae, who regarded the contemplative life as way of healing - not from a particular disease, but from the existential angst of life; I believe it is even the origin of the term 'therapy', although disability might detract the ability to pursue those kinds of practices.
Jules Evans, 'Philosophy for Life', is one contemporary philosopher who works on the therapeutic aspects of philosophy.
Yeah, I am disabled for having undifferentiated schizophrenia or a psychotic disorder. So, there's that aspect of my being. No fun in Posty's world.
I'm on the fence as of recent in regards to treating philosophy as therapy. I do agree with everything Wittgenstein has to say about treating philosophy as therapy; but, I'm not sure about the remission rates or outcome of treating it as such. Great, another idea I want to endlessly post about.
It's ok to endlessly post. Just keep in my mind that you're trying to engage readers in a story which has no arc, a strategy which is likely to lead to having no readers. That said, the Internet is a big place.
Yeah; but, I have you to cheer me up with some Skinnerian behaviorism. *smiles*
You did have that, past tense.
:halo:
Have taken up Yoga and I'm pretty amazed at how effective it is when I'm stressed out. Great way to focus attention on what you are doing rather than constructing narratives in head from an underlying mood. Heat shock effects are suppose to be great for mood to, so thinking hot yoga is next. Wish I had a sauna.
Damm. What makes you want to commit suicide?
Quoting Nils Loc
That's scary, but I'd use benzos with alcohol. Dreamless sleep.
Quoting Nils Loc
Check out something called Silexan on Amazon. It's great for anxiety and dirt cheap. I'm considering switching my antidepressant to Viibryd due to its potent action on 5-HT1A receptors. Try it at least. It won't hurt you.
Best regards!
Acid reflux, gastroparesis-like symptoms (food not passing out of stomach at normal rate) and insomnia, all going on for months, while having to do my job (light to moderate physical labor). I'm not sure there is much point to living if one can't sleep or eat enough.
I'll check out Silexan. Usually find that supplements don't do much but I'll try anything.
Yoga on the other hand is potent calming fix and mood regulator so far.
Volunteer work. It’ll create a cognitive dissonance in your mind and force you to like people.
Quoting Nils Loc
I tried cryotherapy a while back. Stimulating and calming at the same time.
Weed high in CBD is good for insomnia, btw.
I don't know what you think is wrong with your attitude about the societal-world. It sounds right to me.
The societal-world? Write it off.
We're here to live this life as well as possible, during its duration. ...because we like to.
Period.
We don't really have needs. We just have likes.
I say that some anxiety and insecurity is perfectly natural and inevitable. In general, but especially in a bad societal-world such as ours. I experience that inevitable anxiety and insecurity too.
I, too, tend to avoid people. I practically never talk to anyone other than my girlfriend, other than the necessary minimal business-speech. To me, that's perfectly reasonable.
But where I disagree with Schopenhauer1 is, I don't share his pessimism about Reality. I feel and believe that Reality is good. ...that there is reason (including, but not limited to, "outward-sign") that to that effect.
All the "structural-badness" that he speaks of is societal.
Michael Ossipoff
I hear you. I can't fathom not sleeping well. Sleep is the only thing that entertains me sufficiently enough in life. Again, back to my post on the profoundness of dreams.
But, there are remedies for that. As I mentioned lavender extract is one option, another is Ativan or some benzo to quell the mind for a period of time, Xanax comes to mind. But, those are drugs that are prone to habitualization. I guess Magnolia extract can be of use here also. Melatonin is another one for better sleep. I don't entirely know how to adjust your circadian rhythm. Some other options are available; but, not really practical. Lyrica helps me get through the day sometimes.
Anyway, keep on living until you find some temporary solution. Suicide is too much for me to fathom.
This. CBD has helped me in the past. And anything cannabinoid seems to help with Chrones disease or gastrointestinal issues.
I'm not sure, I'm ready for that. But, seems logical. But, then I don't know how to deal with negative motivations as in wanting to stay at home and do nothing or such. Part of it is depression and some other maladies.
How is that possible?
Many people wear masks; they have a cabinet of masks. But not everyone does. To a large extent, I do not. I tend to be a "what you see is what you get" kind of guy. I'm not the only one. It's not a great virtue in itself to go out in public without a mask. Some of us are just too stupid to know how to fake it properly.
Quoting Posty McPostface
In fiction I have also found that sort of comfort, that there are other people like me in the world. And in life, too, I have found that comforting insight. My biased view of the world is that there are billions of people who breeze through life with rare difficulties. They are well adjusted achievers. I stumble around, never accomplishing that which I would accomplish, and am something of the bumpkin
OK, so I'm exaggerating, but the ego can take a beating, as well as dominate. One must always be on guard against one's own self-defeating prophecies, as well as the self-fulfilling ones.
"wallowing is what I do."
Quoting Posty McPostface
So, you were dealt a bad hand. Sorry about that. Your diagnosis is explanatory, in part. I can understand better how your immobilization might happen. On the other hand, you are tending to the condition with which you must live. That is no small thing. Tending or not tending will have dramatically different outcomes. So keep up the good work of taking care of yourself.
Quoting Posty McPostface
At least the ego dominates the individual. What else could dominate? Simple physical need could dominate; our basest drives could dominate. "Ego" in Freud's conception is a moderator, as well as being dominant. The ego moderates the crude drives of the id and the fussy requirements of the socially dictated superego.
"dominant ego" doesn't mean that you feel the need to dominate others.
Quoting Posty McPostface
The king: "The people are revolting."
The Queen: "Yes, I find them very revolting."
You're a 'dude' then. Sorry, had to say that.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Sadly, or happily (depends which generation you are of, as I'm a millennial) you can only find them open and uninhibited online (or in college, if you're willing to do that sort of thing).
Quoting Bitter Crank
Ehh, C'est La Vie. Life goes on. I'm high on it as of recently.
Quoting Bitter Crank
It seems like a knot though, the need to dominate at least. Why be dominative? For more things? Here's the cynic in me voicing its concerns.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Cool. :cool:
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Yes, it is easier to say than to explain. But I think it’s true, so I’ll try to say why.
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(I heard it from Kentucky Buddhist Ken Keyes, in the ‘70s.)
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What’s the disadvantage of someone’s life ending? It’s that that person won’t be able to do or have, or continue doing or having, some things that s/he likes. So, survival-needs really come down to preserving the availability of things that we like. Likes are the basis of it all.
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Hence the Hindus’ reference to life as play (“Lila”).
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There are various ways of saying that. Here’s another way of saying it:
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Though I’m not a Materialist (I’m an Ontic Structural Subjective Idealist), the Materialists are right about one thing: We’re all animals, and animals are physical, biologically-originated, purposefully-responsive devices. At basis, we’re purposefully-responsive devices, like a mousetrap, a refrigerator lightswitch, a thermostat, or a Roomba.
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A Roomba or a computer doesn’t care if you turn it off or unplug it. It merely is designed to act to achieve a built-in purpose in response to conditions. That’s it.
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Isn’t there something that we can learn from it?
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Likewise, a biological purposefully-responsive device is designed, by natural selection, to achieve certain goals.
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…based, at least ultimately, on built-in purposes. …like those of the abovementioned purposefully-responsive devices.
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Like those devices, we aren’t made for things to happen to. Like them, we’re designed to respond to conditions, which, in our subjective-language, we can call “doing our best”. A Chinese Buddhist pointed out that, when you’ve acted on a circumstance, or maybe even just when you’ve merely decided what to do about it, then you’ve nullified it. What decision remains then? And what other role do we have other than choosing what to do? If you’re doing your best, what else matters to you?
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We’re about our choice—based on preference—at (obviously only) the time when there’s a choice to be made. Like the abovementioned devices, we’re not about the outcome.
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Incidentally, since I spoke of choices, let me comment on what they amount to: Any choice that we make is determined by 1) our preferences; and 2) our surroundings. For “preferences”, substitute “programming”, and the same can be said of the Roomba.
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Isn’t it true that our choices really only amount to making a good try at an estimate of which course of action best fits our preferences and the surroundings?
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With our choices determined by preferences and surroundings, it can be said that, in a meaningful sense, our choices are pre-made for us. …unburdening us from the weight of those choices.
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Michael Ossipoff
A social mask is necessary, we use clothes for this reason, we deny sexual and bodily functions or wrap them up in acceptable ways. In fact anything we hold private is part of social masking. We use the mechanism of joke making to allow us to address some of these no go areas in a mostly well managed process of comedy, but even here we violate the boundaries on multiple subjects. It reduces to the truth and fictions we create to protect ourselves and others from these truths. Some people are quite comfortable with two or more faces, politicians are used as good examples but anyone who wears clothes is just hiding facts that we all observe for ourselves but not able to tolerate for most others. Since you struggle to put on various social faces, imagine that we also fart in company, but silently so as to conform, and clothes give a semi permanent social face, hiding our bodies, bodily habits, thoughts etc. Even acquiring a language and accent from our early years becomes a social face and identity, while it’s a conforming mechanism its also a social mask that we show to rest of the world. Imagine if we developed personal language expressions? Aside from the communication issues, it would prevent us from forming tribes and groups that are important parts of our social masks.
My psychologist once told me that the ego is a dominating force that compels us to act on our behalf. Yet, I am not dominant by nature. I find it hard to find reasons why I would want to feel dominative towards other people. Furthermore, there's nothing about me that wants to manipulate other people, and there's nothing in me that is prone to manipulation, because I have a keen mind in sensing such things, and I don't value anything apart from my peace of mind.
Most people want fulfillment, some get it by dominating, or being dominated. Ultimately social interaction requires a tradeoff with our individuality and its needs. Hierarchies in social groups appear universal across all species. Individuals rarely win this with taking a beating at many stages of life or compromising individual needs.
I think we tend to idealise children, partly because it’s a biological imperative, and also because we see their lives as simpler and less challenging as ours, because they have no idea the consequences of being adult, of growing old, and in some cases of our mortality. (I say some cases because youth does not protect you from accident or death, just ageing).
You did not say what age of children you endow with these attributes. I have four adult daughters and work with kids of various ages. No question they are different in may positive ways to adults but are still selfish and generally thoughtless. Teenagers go through a stage of self centricity, boys differently to girls, and show many negative attributes as well as serious consequences at this stage. I understand their neurons get pruned during puberty to provide resources to sexual maturity, so brains don’t work that well. By 25 the prefrontal cortex is mostly developed and then they realise their parents do know a bit, and they grow up and start learning about life.
Children receive massive amounts of indoctrination from schools, fashion, parents et al, so they are able to integrate into society and hopefully become productive, obedient, and law abiding citizens.
Even our idea of individuality is perhaps the most telling and fundamental forms of social indoctrination – that we are free willed, autonomous individuals. Only by this indoctrination can people spend their 3 score and 10 without slashing their wrists or someone else’s. People and there are a visible minority that stand out, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche etc etc some of whom went mad due to the struggle against social indoctrination because they had some degree of awareness. Humans have been social far longer than we have been human, society needs to avoid fractures caused. Its natural to crush any member who risks fracturing the integrity of society
Difficult question without knowing more about the person or specific circumstances. If you are interested I will give you my perspective on this as it has affected me
Do go on. I am interested. What are your thoughts about children prior to puberty. I don't see the development of the prefrontal cortex by age 25 as that big a deal as long as the individual doesn't deviate from the norms of what you call socialization.
Your post comes close to what I am trying to understand when an individual goes through socialization while trying to maintain individuality or the socialization vs individualization problem.
This only seems like a problem that children or teenagers face when confronted with sexual maturity.
Just thinking aloud about what you said, the problem seems to be how we educate the young? Is that correct?
For some reason, the parable of Adam and Eve comes to mind. I tend to agree with this but it leaves out one important fact which I will address in the following paragraphs.
Quoting tmb
Yes, the issue of crime comes to my mind when I read about this and how unfair and unjust society appears to be to the criminal. Boundless rationalization ensue...
Quoting tmb
Now, I agree with this; but, it neglects to mention the fact that children are extremely malleable. At that age, a great deal of plasticity is in play. I believe that this is an important factor in professing my 'hope' about children.
http://www.greatbooksojai.com/the-agora-foundation_rorty_education_as_socialization_and_as_individualization.pdf
Quoting Richard Rorty
Your consistent attempt to instigate intimate social interaction here by openly revealing and discussing the personal details of your life belies your claim that you wish to live as a hermit without social interaction. It sounds like you have limited social interaction and you therefore don't have long-term friends, work friends, church friends, or other sorts of friends you'd make by just exposing yourself to the world, and that lack of friendship causes you some amount loneliness. Your general pessimism also isn't terribly conducive to forming long lasting friendships because there's nothing appealing about it.
You don't just get to declare yourself pessimistic, hopelessly passive, misanthropic, and socially isolated as if that's the way things must be, Just decide to change and change and stop being lazy and accept responsibility for your state of affairs. If, though, all of this is out of your control and you're just telling us you're a one legged person forced to hop about ten steps behind the rest of us your whole life and it really sucks, then I'll cry for you if it makes you feel better.
That's not entirely true. The life we experience here only is fundamentally different than real life interaction. What does that say about me? A lot, and little (I hope we can leave it at that, as I also am aware of certain boundaries). I already, in an inverted manner, explained the reason why I prefer online contact over real-life confrontation.
Speaking about boundaries, I find the internet a medium where artificial boundaries are dashed away. I could be a woman posting on this forum, or a serial killer. You really don't know that. But, you can infer that my intentions and alter-ego is true and accurate based on the consistency of my posts about myself and life which you touched on.
Again, elaborating on boundaries, I believe that the internet abolishes them, an interesting phenomenon. I might have no social circle (again, a circle establishes the very concept of a boundary), but, I'm quite fine with that.
Oh, dear. I hope you don't start calling me a snowflake, Sir/Ma'am or whoever the person behind your alter-ego of "Hanover" is. Anyway, if you've followed my posting here, then I suppose it bears repeating that I'm a disabled individual due to mental health. As much as I'd like to pull myself up from my bootstraps, my metaphorical "back" isn't in great shape, and never will be. Hence my lamentation, wallowing, reclusiveness, escapist tendencies, and resignation from life.
And I do respect that, which brings up my callous but true conclusion, which is that if you are disabled to the point where nothing can be done about it, then what do you ask I (or anyone) do other than feel bad for you? I can share my insights, be nice, be mean, make jokes, pontificate, or whatever, but you are telling me that you have but one leg and will never be able to run. Well, I'm sorry about your one leg. What else do you seek?
In case you are not aware, I'm seeking others who feel the same or are in a similar predicament. This isn't only about 'me'.
My perspective of how I have lived my life over past 60 years is that I have been too agreeable and tolerant and although this has meant avoiding confrontation, I have been taken advantage of. I am not at the extreme of this, as I also know people who are even more willing to please and I see myself pushing them around. My approach has always been ‘virtue is its own reward’, and through work and community service I perform I have tried to live by this. Now I see these as being social indoctrinates, rather than an innate capacity for good in myself. I want to be socially judged as being a good person and well liked. However, I am also not interested in social small talk, so I volunteer in a bar so I can be productive in a sports oriented group, without having to stand around for hours making small talk. Its taken a while, and people regard me as slightly eccentric. Its not that I don’t like people, in fact I do, and easily engage in deep meaningful conversations, however these have limits once I have learned as much as I can from the other people. I am the person who at parties will find the bookcase and find that books interest me more than small talking the other guests.
As a result of these realisations and I have becomes far less tolerant, and though I still perform community work as I have for many years, I serve my own needs far more. I still enjoy mentoring and helping people, but as much of my community work deals with the public, I am often appalled by how thoughtless and ungrateful people can be, and their sense of entitlement about what someone doing community work owes them. In my mind I made an excellent citizen, paying taxes, obeying the law, as virtue was its own reward, I gave as much as a I could. I used to mentor new employees in corporate business on my own time, asking that all I wanted in return was for them to mentor two others in their time, so that society would progressively become better, first in our company and then in society – this is a pay it forward type concept – and you note how concepts like these get publicised – because it would be great if everyone else behaved unselfishly.
I have also changed my ideas on the roles and equality of men and women in society over the past couple of decades. I assume from my well educated mother and not having sisters, I grew up with a sense that women were somehow special, and generally had less advantages than men, when they probably deserved more. However I was puzzled by the fact that men who had the most control in society , lived shorter lives, committed suicide 4x as often as women, made up 90% of prison populations, were more likely to be homeless, and died violently more often. If men were in control how come women got more of these significant benefits? Once again I think there is a social indoctrination at work based upon power dynamics between all sectors of society, men and women, children, adults, the aged etc, all trying to get the best for themselves and get others to contribute as much as they can.
We have been social far longer than we have been human, with the common ape ancestor split 6-8mya, if we regard sexual reproduction as social this began over 1billion years ago, and while there are some quite advanced species that are asocial, like polar bears, leopards and cheetahs, they still socialise for sexual reproduction and raising their young. I mention this to show how deeply social we are and although we get socialised by our specific social environment, it has also evolved over countless generations of ancestors. Despite this most animals and plants still do their best to stay in control of their lives, even at a cost to others. This is expressed either by doing something to stay alive or reproducing. This means that the social/individual dynamics run far deeper than simple social constructs. Puberty signals the point where sexual reproduction becomes possible and instead of just trying to keep alive as an individual, we are now trying to replicate our DNA through the process of sex.
Having said that from birth we imitate language , accents, moral values, fashion before we have any awareness. I believe that many ideas about individuality are fostered by society. Consider the movie industry, people watch an average of 5 movies each year, movies provide escapism from everyday life, and a strong theme in films is individuality winning against social indoctrination. There is usually a sense of a good little guy/gal winning against a big corporation, this seems to inspire people and movie studios deliver the escapism we require. Most books read are similar, the general junk fiction tries to reassure people life has meaning and good and truth will prevail. This is of course pure bullshit, good and truth are just social slogans, and social constructs themselves. Aside from humans they don’t exist in other animals, yet most of our fundamental behaviors and motivations are the same ones we see in animals.
[QUOTE]Now, I agree with this; but, it neglects to mention the fact that children are extremely malleable. At that age, a great deal of plasticity is in play. I believe that this is an important factor in professing my 'hope' about children.[/quote]
Agreed that children and people are malleable, and I see the following questions arising
What does success look like? How will we recognise and define a perfect child? What will they behave like? Law abiding, obedient, and productive citizens? Doing unto others as……Turning the other cheek…..? These are reasonable but still difficult question questions to answer but the next question is even more difficult.
Once we have the perfect picture of the perfect child/adult, what perfect mechanism do we use to achieve this? After all the existing education and civic systems are (in theory) supposed to produce educated and productive citizens. Communism, socialism, fascism, Nazism, nudism, religion all these have been set up my various individuals and groups to achieve some utopian human society, but as far as I am aware none have been perfect, in fact far from it. This means its not a new idea to try and mould society, George Orwells 1984 and Animal Farm, Huxleys Brave new World are well known caricatures of what society might become. History consists of nothing but people trying to promote their own selfish interests or those of their group. The concept of the group has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. Womens rights, sexual orientation and identity, racial equality, childrens rights, animal rights, disabled rights, mental health rights and many others have meant we have expanded our concept of the ingroup whose well being needs to be promoted. Its still a work in progress with plenty of bumps along the way, but we can expect that human society and life will continue be defined as what is important and whose needs should be promoted. This means their must be a cost to individuals and sub groups, I cant see how tradeoffs can be avoided through this process.
Also note that malleable does not have to be limited to our minds, we have already been moulding human and animal bodies through selective breeding, medicine, IVF and now we are getting into proactive gene manipulation. This means that not only are we likely to greatly extend life expectancy but we can manipulate the unborn, either before procreation or after, but certainly before they are born. Since all this is being done for the greater good, we should promote it? I am being facetious here, however this process is not stoppable by conscious process. The first IVF baby was a major scandal, now it raises no comment. The first heart transplant raised moral questions, now we think nothing of it and do lungs, kidneys and will end up doing brains. We have cloned domestic animals and will certainly clone humans at some point. All this will only stop if an asteroid hits us, or we nuke ourselves, otherwise its unstoppable and we will adjust or moral standards (as we have always done) to help it on its way.
What an exciting time to be alive.
Indeed. Thanks for posting!
Quoting Hanover
Quoting Hanover
I don't like or understand the motivation for Hanover's derogatory tone.
I suggest:that you accept the fact that you naturally, by inclination, avoid people. ...as do I. There's nothing wrong with that, and it needn't be harmful to your life. Of course you just live your life in recognition of, and working around, that natural inclination.
I don't believe that it is a disability or a malady.
You might very well have the "Asperger's" attribute. That isn't a bad thing*, contrary to the implication of the word "syndrome".
*though it results in serious vulnerability to intimidation and bullying by parents and the ambient cultlure, during childhood.
I suggest not reading any more Schopenhauer. His metaphysics of the Will-to-Life makes sense, as a start that could lead to Ontic Structural Subjective Idealism, but his negative view of how things are is way wrong.
Michael Ossipoff
I just got in the mail his Volume I of The World as Will and Representation. I also got his Essays and Aphorisms. I think I will soon study him in detail.
My only motivation was to say what is true. This is a philosophy forum afterall. Posty acknowledged his motivation was only to find kindred spirits who could identify with his plight, which simply means I don't satisfy his criteria in this thread.
The antecedent belies your claim. Since this is a philosophy forum which can consist with kids who score on the above range of intelligence, I mean genius level, then this is an open platform where we exchange ideas. I was hoping someone else might have an idea similar or better refined than my own conception of some manner or form.
I don't believe that he said that he hates people--merely that he tends to avoid people. But you exemplify the familiar and dismal fact that there are people who need to be avoided or ignored.
Michael Ossipoff
:blush:
Your comment that I need to be avoided is belied (a word that must be used in this thread as much as possible) by your speaking to me and falling victim to my charisma.
This thread is expressly about "misanthropy" which is literally a hatred of people. But, if you read my most enlightening posts, I did question whether @Posty McPostface was a misanthrope, saying that his outreach here belied (BAM!) his claims to misanthropy. He made a comment then about the mask that he wore here allowed social navigation otherwise inaccessible to him in the direct contact real world. I do agree with that, although I think we all wear masks wherever we are, and what he points to is more social difficulties than misanthropy. My hesitation in exploring the extent of and cause of his social limitations is based upon my acknowledgment that it is impossible to psychoanalyze others from afar, especially those with a complex history of mental illness..
Yet, your attempts to psychoanalyze me in this thread belies your intent to psychoanalyze. Anyway, I don't care if you do try and psychoanalyze me or not. That doesn't bug me.
Quoting Hanover
I admit, that I am not a classical misanthrope. Rather stipulatively I use this word. If you find that vague, then I will say that I do interact with people online much more than in real life. That indicates that I feel more comfortable with online interactions than the small chit chat I would do with people in real life.
But, that's not indicative of misanthropy per se. It's rather the fact that I can effectively find more people online that share my common interests. And hence I post here. So, your assumption that my posts belie my stipulative misanthropy, is ill-founded.
What more can I say about this straw man you've created of me?
Other than my girlfriend, I practically never talk to anyone, except for the minimal business-talk needed in daily life.
There just aren't conversations in person. Nothing to answer, nothing to say.
Online, there are conversations already going on, and it's a whole other environment that invites everyone's contribution.
Michael Ossipoff
Yes, that environment interests me. What can you say about it?
People often say that non-verbal communication is at least 60-80% of real communication... Does that make online communication a futile effort? What kind of communication is online communication, then?
What it really does is make clear what bullshit that 60-80% figure really is. We can communicate sometimes more fully and clearly in writing. That's why it's sometimes better to write a letter.
It's easier to communicate online for some because of social limitations, anxiety, fear of rejection, and embarrassment to name a few. That's why online dating is so popular.
I guess you can make a straw man and say that the internet is composed of such individuals. I certainly would fall into that category you are describing though. To each his own?