You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

The Aims of Education

Shawn September 15, 2018 at 02:45 11575 views 99 comments
Since Plato, we talk about the aims of education.

Have we come along in answering that question? Should happiness be the main aim of education? And, if so, how do we achieve it?

Comments (99)

Banno September 15, 2018 at 03:23 #212559
Why only one aim?
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 03:27 #212560
Reply to Banno

I edited the post. But, what's your take on the matter? Should happiness be the main aim we should be striving for in educating the youth?
Banno September 15, 2018 at 05:38 #212574
Sure, why not teach happiness. Amongst other things.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 05:42 #212575
Reply to Banno

And, how would one go about doing that?
Banno September 15, 2018 at 07:17 #212589
Reply to Posty McPostface Here's one way: http://www.positivepsychologyinstitute.com.au/what_is_positive_psychology.html
All sight September 15, 2018 at 08:17 #212593
We're capitalists. Institutionally it is to get jobs, or fill particular occupations, isn't it?

I mean, the purpose, and even meaning is very wide, and varied. It depends on what it is, and intentions, though it also exceeds both. Learning a martial art could be for confidence, health, carrying on a tradition, self-defense, the instillation of discipline. The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism.

As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 19:07 #212637
Quoting All sight
We're capitalists. Institutionally it is to get jobs, or fill particular occupations, isn't it?


No, I don't believe so. It seems to me that we're brought into a world that is capitalistic rather than being a capitalist.

Quoting All sight
Learning a martial art could be for confidence, health, carrying on a tradition, self-defense, the instillation of discipline. The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism.


What do you mean by that? I don't understand what you mean by 'The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism'.

Quoting All sight
As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.


That's detrimental to the wellbeing of an individual, to think of themselves as a cog in a machine, or some such matter.
BC September 15, 2018 at 19:53 #212641
Reply to Posty McPostface In an ideal world, the goals of education would be to...

First, aid the individual in discovering what his native traits are -- the who and what I am.
Second, to apprehend the nature of 'the world' in its physical and social manifestations.
Third, to aid the individual in finding a congruent path between his nature and social expectations.
Fourth, to discover what is for him good work, and acquire the necessary skills.

Rats. Just noticed that we don't live in an ideal world. Well, that's a problem, but we can still pursue my Four Goals. (Note: This kind of education can not take place where society is in a state of advanced deterioration.)

Primary school is still... 'primary'. Education for children through 6th or 8th grade is the critical phase. "High school" (9-12) really should be quite academic, but still not overly structured and restrictive. By the time one is 18 they will, one hopes, be reasonably insightful, reasonably capable, and reasonably socialized individuals. Of course, there is variation.

Acquiring linguistic skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking) and numeracy requires structure. (This must begin in infancy when the parent is responsible for development.) Children need quite a bit of freedom (within safety limits) to discover who they are, at times without adult direction.

Apprehending the physical and social nature of the world again requires structured learning, as well as unstructured interaction. Children need to be free to be who they are becoming. ('becoming' can be a very messy process; clean-up crews on hand?)

A criticism: Parents aspiring to produce accomplished children fill their days with rigid school schedules and extra lessons in music, dance, sport--all sorts of structured activity. This runs counter to the child having unstructured time for personal discovery.

Finding a congruent path between personal identity and social expectations requires ethical training. Some social expectations are good, and some are not. What one likes and dislikes isn't a sufficient guide. Individuals need a grounding in right and wrong as well.

Finding good work (work that one likes, and which contributes to both the individual and society) is a daunting task--made more so by the state of advanced capitalism in which billions of people must operate. There is 'good work' available, but not nearly enough to go around. Most people are going to find 'good work' hard to find.

I think children benefit growing up in a permissive -- and reasonably safe -- environment; what is permissive for young children may not be appropriate for older children, and visa versa. Actually, this is true for adults too. We like being able to explore possibilities without constant restraint and prohibitions.
BC September 15, 2018 at 20:04 #212643
Reply to Posty McPostface My idea of progressive education is about as far from current practice as factory farming is from having chickens wandering around the barnyard doing their clucking bird thing. I'm on the side of the chickens in the barnyard, figuratively and literally.
BC September 15, 2018 at 20:14 #212644
Quoting All sight
As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.


This is a deadly 'instrumental' approach: feeding children through the educational processing plant to prepare them to fill slots in the capitalist machinery as cogs on wheels. We do this, of course, in as much as we know what jobs there will be (12 to 16 years into the future) and what the requirements to fill them are. The products of this processing will be mostly unable to assess why their lives have become one of monotonous production and consumption. What a waste!

Unless you think that capitalism is the final organization of society, The People need to think about alternative arrangements to meet needs. From my perspective, capitalism is not the final form of society, and is, in fact, becoming the central threat to human fulfillment.
BC September 15, 2018 at 20:21 #212645
Reply to Banno
User image

We certainly want a much larger proportion of the population residing in the "flourishing" category. Nothing against positive psychology, but it seems like more will be required -- like changing material conditions of economies, for instance, to achieve the desirable end. For instance, the kind of school system that would promote positive psychology is most likely not the kind that @all sight suggested. But the factory school is what we've got because it suits economic ends.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 21:40 #212651
Reply to Posty McPostface You mean like reality is capitalistic, or society? I don't think that the university was originally for employment, but for the already wealthy, to get cultured and refined.

I mean that if I teach you something, it is possible to do so for many purposes. Ranging from intending to solely elevate and benefit you, to attempting to solely elevate and benefit me...

I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".
All sight September 15, 2018 at 21:41 #212652
Reply to Bitter Crank

Was there a golden age where people were happier and more fulfilled?
BC September 15, 2018 at 22:45 #212657
Quoting All sight
Was there a golden age where people were happier and more fulfilled?


I don't know.

Can we assess the happiness of ages past? The dead are a devilishly difficulty demographic to survey.

What we can do is assess the happiness people feel at the time of the survey. There are various institutions (Gallop organization, Michigan Institute for Social Research, etc. You can google happiness surveys. It's about what one would expect: Some countries are happier than others right now, and over time some countries have been happier and unhappier.

It would certainly depend on "who you ask". The people on top are probably happier and more content than the people on the bottom. People whose modest expectations have been fulfilled are probably happier than those whose large expectations have only partially been fulfilled. Etc.
BC September 15, 2018 at 22:51 #212658
Quoting All sight
I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".


In the world it is quite possible to not starve, have 'gainful employment', but still have a lack of respect and sense of belonging. The employed may still feel like a social tool with no use, or no positive use.

Alienation and anomie. Many suffer from it. The cause is purposelessness, a lack of personally relevant purposefulness.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 22:53 #212659
Reply to Bitter Crank

I'd like to thank you for this wonderful post. I think the first step in education is to understand our wants and needs first. How would you go about understanding your wants?

Quoting Bitter Crank
First, aid the individual in discovering what his native traits are -- the who and what I am.


How would one go about this issue? Psychometric testing like IQ tests, and personality tests?

Quoting Bitter Crank
Second, to apprehend the nature of 'the world' in its physical and social manifestations.


So, how does one go about doing this? Are you talking about the sciences or humanities?

Quoting Bitter Crank
Third, to aid the individual in finding a congruent path between his nature and social expectations.


This is the process of individualization or socialization?

Quoting Bitter Crank
Fourth, to discover what is for him good work, and acquire the necessary skills.


Yup, no comments here. Just some ambiguity about how to implement such a thing.

Quoting Bitter Crank
Children need to be free to be who they are becoming. ('becoming' can be a very messy process; clean-up crews on hand?)


So, again individualization taking place is paramount. How does one encourage the becoming aspect of a child? Can it be accomplished through education?

I know you addressed these questions; but, I'm just asking from my POV about their use.

Shawn September 15, 2018 at 22:54 #212661
Reply to Bitter Crank

So, what are your thoughts about individualization and socialization with respect to education? That's a question that's kind of bugging me.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:00 #212663
Quoting All sight
You mean like reality is capitalistic, or society? I don't think that the university was originally for employment, but for the already wealthy, to get cultured and refined.


I meant that society is capitalistic where capitalism prevails. And universities were inherently democratic in most capitalist societies.

Quoting All sight
I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".


That's true; but, then it's a no win situation. With that in mind then the goal should be the development of happy workers or happy individuals in society.

All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:04 #212664
Reply to Bitter Crank

I don't think it's complicated, and speaking of "relative happiness", a person in a society with a wider range between the well to dos, and the got nothin's may report themselves to be less happy and fulfilled than someone in a flatter land. Comparatively, we have television, full of beautiful super genius lovable gods surrounded by prosperity, and even see the representation of others on social media as aiming at implying as much about that about themselves as possible, and comparatively one may feel like an ugly miserable loser. So that it being uncommon for all of your siblings to survive childhood would not be as terrible, if it were happening to everyone.

There is a certain degree of isolation, and insulation that takes place today like never before. Close my door and the world is gone.

Though, aren't we all just really spoiled? Would it be better if it were a lot harder to survive (as it unquestionably was at all other points in history)? I don't find that suggestion off the wall or offensive, but I do find it dangerous, and irresponsible. Perhaps it is so that we rejoice and find fulfillment in the greatest of hardships, but cannot fight the urge to set fire to heaven, because everything's a little too perfect.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:05 #212665
Reply to Bitter Crank

Yeah, and one can have everything, and be completely better off in every measurable respect to every other person not only alive, but that has ever lived, and still "feel" that way. At some point, the problem is you.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:08 #212666
Reply to Posty McPostface

Happiness isn't some ideal goal... like the pursuit of it (which originally was the pursuit of property), but never acquisition. Just ever increasing levels of adulation. Sounds so banal, and sad.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:14 #212667
Reply to All sight

Then how does one attain happiness in educational settings? Happiness is not easy to attain. There are different senses of happiness. Like one where 'highs' are pursued instead of contentment. Therefore contentment should be the aim of education to some degree.

Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:14 #212668
Reply to Bitter Crank There's more than that, that's problematic with positive psychology. An exception that folk should be happy makes any misery a personnel failing, something to be solved.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:15 #212669
Quoting All sight
We're capitalists.


I'm not.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:16 #212670
We need to talk about aims because aims provide criteria by which we judge our choices of goals, objectives, and subject content. Aims-talk can also be directed at the larger society and its policies. Both functions are important.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:18 #212671
Reply to Posty McPostface

Do you mean like satisfaction? Like they're happy with the education they got, rather than feeling displeased? Or do you mean reaching a place where one just feels good feelings all the time, and never bad ones? The first seems rudimentary, and the second terribly nightmarish.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:18 #212672
Reply to Banno

Of course not, you're a hippopotamus.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:19 #212673
Quoting All sight
Do you mean like satisfaction? Like they're happy with the education they got, rather than feeling displeased? Or do you mean reaching a place where one just feels good feelings all the time, and never bad ones? The first seems rudimentary, and the second terribly nightmarish.


Well, yes to the first; but, the intricate problem is that these aren't issues that can be addressed through education, or can they?
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:21 #212675
Reply to Posty McPostface

You can't answer "yes" to a multiple choice question...

The first is like anything at all, any product, service, public good, it has to be satisfactory to some extent, and not a complete let down. Otherwise why keep it around?
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:26 #212676
Reply to All sight What a brilliant reply. You win.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:27 #212677
Quoting All sight
I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.


Just keep in mind that what you are doing here is no more than setting out your own preference.

All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:28 #212678
Reply to Banno

You don't really say much that is conducive to reply. Quips, and winning and losing.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:28 #212679
Reply to All sight Perhaps you are not saying as much as you think you are.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:29 #212680
We might consider this:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/freedom-learn/201309/schools-are-good-showing-not-learning
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:29 #212681
Reply to Banno "Just keep in mind that what you are doing here is no more than setting out your own preference."

I promise you that it is not. Inferring that I'm in support of it, because I say it is so...? Not everyone works like that.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:30 #212682
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:32 #212683
So Quoting All sight
I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.
is supposed to be descriptive?

It's not. Most stuff taught in high schools and universities is never used at work.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:34 #212685
Reply to Banno

Yeah, and they tend to tell you that when you get the job, or even during the education process. That you don't actually start learning until you get the jobs. The fact is still that occupations have educational requirements.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:40 #212687
Just a side question.

Aristotle implied that education should provide happiness based on a hierarchy of importance. To him, mathematics stood above politics or writing. Is this view still embraced to this day, as treating happiness by the intellectual rigor of the field of study?

This is the more nuanced view of education presented by Aristotle. Eudaimonia is the second more popular view promoted by him. However, I can't get the Platonic elitist view out of my head, which Aristotle rehashed with treating happiness as an intellectual activity. This same line of reasoning is presented by utilitarianism and Mill, even Bertrand Russell held this view of education.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:41 #212688
Quoting All sight
The fact is still that occupations have educational requirements.


Sure. Organisations have to look as if they are acting rationally. But they are not. They will choose someone with a degree over someone who pulled out just before graduation, but with higher marks. it's called the Sheepskin effect.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:42 #212690
Reply to Banno

Then we agree.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:43 #212691
Quoting Posty McPostface
Is this view still embraced to this day, as treating happiness by the intellectual rigor of the field of study?


By whom?
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:43 #212693
Reply to All sight Do we? What about?
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:44 #212694
Quoting Banno
By whom?


By the common folk, I suppose. You can find it in those ivory towers also. The whole idea of 'competitiveness' hinges on this fact.

Somewhat illusory; I suppose.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:47 #212697
Reply to Posty McPostface

I don't think that is true. Aristotle thought that education was for "exercising the mind" or our capacity for reason (he also thought that you should exercise the body, and then the mind), which played directly into his ideas of eudaimonia, and the development of character, which doesn't lead to "happiness" like a feeling one has, but one's manifest well being, and prosperity. Health, and wealth. Not a feeling.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:48 #212699
Reply to Posty McPostface Then back to my first observation. The common folk don't agree. Nor is it obvious that even if they dod, they would be right.

Hence, back to my original observation - why only one, or even some, aim?

What is more important, the aim or the process?

Why must education have a teleology?
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:49 #212700
Reply to Banno "Do we? What about?"

Everything you happen to be right about.
Banno September 15, 2018 at 23:52 #212701
Reply to All sight Ok, then I am right that education should not serve any particular purpose.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:52 #212702
Reply to Banno

Surely you're playing devil's advocate. There is a difference between child-rearing in a jungle and no education compared to a child brought up in a society.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:55 #212703
Quoting All sight
I don't think that is true. Aristotle thought that education was for "exercising the mind" or our capacity for reason (he also thought that you should exercise the body, and then the mind), which played directly into his ideas of eudaimonia, and the development of character, which doesn't lead to "happiness" like a feeling one has, but one's manifest well being, and prosperity. Health, and wealth. Not a feeling.


So, under this understanding education only serves a utility-function? How crass.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:55 #212704
Reply to Banno

So education is useless? Or just ultimately not tied down to any particular purpose necessarily? Like you won't discover the purpose of education, hiding behind the nucleus of an atom?
javra September 15, 2018 at 23:55 #212705
Just saw some similar comments, but since I’m feeling a bit cranky myself:

Uhum. To hell with happiness. You want to be happy go to Disney town until you’re sick and tired of it, then, after your fed up with being happy, go back to class where the teachers teach you (and not “facilitate”) about the world.

Problem is that too many teachers today have their heads stuck up their donkey, have no good education themselves, and don’t give a hoot about children’s welfare—which doesn’t consist in being happy, but in being well-informed. Why do we not all get lobotomized just right so as always be happy till the moment we perish? Whatever your personal answer happens to be, it demonstrates that there’s a lot more to life than constantly feeling oneself to be on cloud nine.

And as compared to today—a time that correlates nicely with economic theories which illustrate that it’s in the interest of profit to have an uninformed/dumb electorate/populace—the 50s and 60s in America (at the very least) was one golden age of education. Because those folk were vastly more informed than we presently are. It only led to things such as increased equality between people of different stripes being institutionalized—activities which did not make the respective practitioners persistently happy, like when being bit by police dogs.

Ok, just wanted to throw that in.

I think I get what others are saying though, happiness in the sense of eudemonia … in which case, never mind all of this.
All sight September 15, 2018 at 23:56 #212706
Reply to Posty McPostface

So both of you figure that education shouldn't be for any purpose? How decadent.
Shawn September 15, 2018 at 23:59 #212709
Quoting javra
Whatever your personal answer happens to be, it demonstrates that there’s a lot more to life than constantly feeling oneself to be on cloud nine.


This is the modern day conception of happiness. To be 'high' all the time. I'm advocating for contentment and satisfaction through education. As to how to attain or implement that is the performative function of this thread.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:01 #212710
Quoting All sight
So both of you figure that education shouldn't be for any purpose? How decadent.


See my previous comment.
javra September 16, 2018 at 00:03 #212712
Reply to Posty McPostface Yea :smile: . Thought I'd help out a bit by doing my part to keep the thread on topic.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:03 #212713
Quoting Banno
Why must education have a teleology?


I wonder about this too. It started with Plato, then Aristotle, and now we continue in their footsteps. Is that a bad thing? I don't entirely know myself. It seems like on the whole of it education is beneficial to society rather than detrimental.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:05 #212714
Reply to Posty McPostface IS there? A concrete Jungle?

Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:06 #212715
Quoting All sight
So education is useless?


See how this does not follow from what I said?
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:07 #212717
Anyone seen this?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-be-awesome/

Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:09 #212719
Being awesome is unpredictable, different. It's also outgoing, growing, exploding.

Education should be awesome.

But that's not giving it a purpose; it's not a teleology of education. Any given purpose would inevitably suck.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:16 #212721
Going off on a tangent. It seems to me that education, nowadays, produces more unhappiness than happiness in individuals. Given my short stint in college, I can't say I was actually happy. Though, I kept on telling myself that I should be happy.

On another note. Given that education has been reduced to a performative function of utility maximization through intellectual ability, then competitiveness is defined by how high an IQ you have. I'm not saying this happens everywhere, but, if you want to do well in some ivy league college, then IQ matters quite a deal.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:17 #212722
Quoting javra
...too many teachers today...
get told what to do by folk with no idea.

It's not the kids who voted for Trump. It was the least educated forty year olds.
javra September 16, 2018 at 00:27 #212724
Reply to Banno Yea. I was a high-school teacher in Compton once. Spoke from some personal experience. Kids that are intelligent—with a big emphasis on this—but don’t know how to subtract hundreds, don’t know who Hitler or Stalin was, and so on. You’ll note that “too many” is, however, not a blanket statement. That aside, are you upholding that society today is better informed about the world than it was a few decades past?
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:29 #212727
@Banno

I think there are domains of happiness and subjective well-being that education is able to encourage or promote. I don't think the strawman has any support from me to define happiness as a unitary entity that can be possessed.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:30 #212728
Quoting javra
are you upholding that society today is better informed about the world than it was a few decades past?


Which society? I'd say that the US education system is in a state of utter decay. But here in Australia we have managed to keep a high degree of quality despite attacks form economic rationalists.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:33 #212729
Quoting Posty McPostface
I think there are domains of happiness and subjective well-being that education is able to encourage or promote.


Hm. happiness and subjective well-being are a side effect of living with the awesome.

javra September 16, 2018 at 00:33 #212730
Reply to Banno Ok. I was going by the US and what I know of Europe. Glad to hear, and quite hopeful, that this situation isn’t ubiquitous.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:34 #212731
Quoting Banno
Hm. happiness and subjective well-being are a side effect of living with the awesome.


I'm in agreement. I just have the implementation in mind, as to how to promote happiness through education. Obviously, not everyone generically goes through that process.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:43 #212734
I want to bring up the self-esteem movement that has grasped American high schools and other educational settings.

What's the deal with that movement? Everyone should get a reward for just being in school or what? Is this what trying to encourage happiness as a goal has resulted in? It's an utter failure in my mind.
Streetlight September 16, 2018 at 00:44 #212735
Quoting Banno
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-be-awesome/

Being awesome is unpredictable, different. It's also outgoing, growing, exploding.

Education should be awesome.


Hah, I really like this. It's a slick way to refer to what I'm come to know as 'becoming-other', a term here elaborated by Elizabeth Grosz (An Aussie academic!):

"Art is the opening up of the universe to becoming-other, just as science is the opening up of the universe to practical action, to becoming-useful and philosophy is the opening up of the universe to thought-becoming. ... [W]hat philosophy and art share in common—their rootedness in chaos, their capacity to ride the waves of a vibratory universe without direction or purpose, in short, their capacity to enlarge the universe by enabling its potential to be otherwise, to be framed through concepts and affects. They are among the most forceful ways in which culture generates a small space of chaos within chaos where chaos can be elaborated, felt, thought."

It'd be nice to add education to this.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 00:48 #212736
Reply to StreetlightX I came across it in The Philosopher's Zone podcast, a while back; but it's been growing on me. Just downloaded the book.

It appears capable of bringing together my disgust at organisational irrationality and my views on pedagogy. New favourite thing.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:53 #212738
Quoting Banno
Being awesome is unpredictable, different. It's also outgoing, growing, exploding.


Isn't it an attitude? If so, then it's possible to encourage, no?
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 00:58 #212742
There's another side to this thread that hasn't been touched on. If happiness is the goal of education, as it should be, then we ought to learn about unhappiness also.

It's only through caring and compassion that we can learn to share the sadness of others and the world, to paradoxically increase our own happiness. This subject is almost a taboo in colleges, due to the Puritan nature of Western society in my mind. But, learning about the suffering of blacks or other groups of people happens, fortunately, in college settings and even high school settings.

Which, brings me to guilt. It seems that this is an important emotion that can serve as an impetus to strive for a better society. Without guilt, we would not want to increase happiness for ourselves and others.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:00 #212744
Quoting Posty McPostface
Isn't it an attitude?


If it were, it would be an attitude towards something. But that does not sound right, since there is not obviously an object that is awesome.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:02 #212745
Quoting Posty McPostface
If happiness is the goal of education, as it should be...


That's not how it goes. Rather, happiness will be one result of education if you are doing it right.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:02 #212746
Quoting Banno
If it were, it would be an attitude towards something.


No, it can be narcissistically directed at one's self. And, this does sound right because it happens every time we want to Instagram or tweet what we are/ate/did/said because we are so special and everyone needs to know how special we are. Obviously, none of this takes place in reality. More like some fantasy world that we construe.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:03 #212747
Quoting Banno
That's not how it goes. Rather, happiness will be one result of education if you are doing it right.


So, how does that happen, then if you care to elaborate?
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:05 #212748
Reply to Posty McPostface when what happens in the classroom is awesome.

Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:07 #212749
Reply to Banno

Pretty circular. Whatever floats your boat then.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:10 #212751
Quoting Posty McPostface
Pretty circular


I'd rather call it foundational.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:15 #212753
Quoting Banno
I'd rather call it foundational.


Since happiness is correlated with awesomeness, then you do agree that education should promote happiness?
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:20 #212754
What if Nietzsche were a teacher. Just think about it:

Nietzsche:To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures.


That would be awesome?
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:23 #212756
Reply to Posty McPostface No; the result would be the dystopia pointed to by @javra.
javra September 16, 2018 at 01:24 #212757
Quoting Posty McPostface
I want to bring up the self-esteem movement that has grasped American high schools and other educational settings.


It’s been going on for a while where I'm at.

Quoting Posty McPostface
What's the deal with that movement? Everyone should get a reward for just being in school or what? Is this what trying to encourage happiness as a goal has resulted in? It's an utter failure in my mind.


Because it’s contradictory to our innate sense of merit, to feeling rewarded for successfully overcoming challenges, for doing good, and for being correct in our beliefs. It’s getting everything for nothing. And children sense that this is a vein, or empty, worth.

I could argue there are good intentions behind it—such as in wanting children to not feel worthless—but, from my experiences, it doesn’t work for the reasons just mentioned. In my experience, the hardest thing to teach is a genuine interest in wanting to learn, to gain more knowledge and, possibly, wisdom. This by learning how to question. The good teachers I had knew how to do so—thereby bringing about self-esteem in us as a consequence of our held effort and desire. Not by teaching that we should hold self-esteem so as to learn. Don’t know if this is what other as calling “awesomeness” but it certainly wasn’t about having fun in the classroom. It was about learning, and when there was a mutually pleasant, reciprocal interest on the part of students and teacher(s), the fun then followed.

But since I take it you’re looking for something more concrete, the number one way to making education better? Decrease class sizes. Make it more personal. This can only make things better regardless of the qualities of the teacher(s). There are other factors, such as in selecting for better teachers via better pay that draws in more candidates, but impersonal interactions are always a lot less effective than personal ones.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:26 #212758
Quoting Banno
No; the result would be the dystopia pointed to by javra.


Then, share with us what aims should education promote?
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:26 #212759
Reply to Posty McPostface Generally speaking N. sucks. Zarathustra is only superficially awesome. In the end he is a blowhard.

User image
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:32 #212761
Quoting javra
Because it’s contradictory to our innate sense of merit, to feeling rewarded for successfully overcoming challenges, for doing good, and for being correct in our beliefs. It’s getting everything for nothing. And children sense that this is a vein, or empty, worth.


So, in the end, do we feel guilt or shame in getting something for nothing? Guilt is a powerful motivator.
Banno September 16, 2018 at 01:34 #212762
Reply to Posty McPostface I thought I did.

Setting aims for education is counterproductive. Instead, be awesome. But of course what counts as awesome cannot, by that very fact, be specified.

I can show you, I can't tell you.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:36 #212763
Quoting Banno
I can show you, I can't tell you.


Whatever floats your boat. As they say, a rising tide lifts all boats.
javra September 16, 2018 at 01:36 #212764
Quoting Posty McPostface
So, in the end, do we feel guilt or shame in getting something for nothing? Guilt is a powerful motivator.


Don’t know. Children, I believe, just feel the vanity to it without knowing how to articulate it. Adults, sometimes, learn to believe that getting everything for nothing is the best way to go. And I somehow doubt these adults feel shame or guilt about it—but I do believe they yet feel empty inside.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:48 #212766
Quoting javra
Adults, sometimes, learn to believe that getting everything for nothing is the best way to go. And I somehow doubt these adults feel shame or guilt about it—but I do believe they yet feel empty inside.


This seems to be an issue of finding meaning in one's life. I suspect it is an issue of not knowing what one wants. So, part of the aim of education should be to identify what a person wants and needs, and try to have them achieve that, within reasonable circumstances.

What do you think?
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:51 #212767
Reply to javra

I suspect also, that there's a deeper issue here. We are no longer treated as subjects in academic settings. Instead, we're a bundle of potential utility to the economy, which schools have to realize.

Is that something you would agree with?
javra September 16, 2018 at 01:56 #212769
Quoting Posty McPostface
This seems to be an issue of finding meaning in one's life. I suspect it is an issue of not knowing what one wants. So, part of the aim of education should be to identify what a person wants and needs, and try to have them achieve that, within reasonable circumstances.


Well, to me that sounds more like the role of a counselor. Good teachers however can wear many hats. Thing is, shoot … I think the best way I can express this is via the parable of the person who teaches the famished other how to fish rather than giving him/her food. Does this make sense?

I think it was Aristotle that I’m now paraphrasing: A good teacher is to be admired more than a parent, for the parent only gives the gift of live, whereas the good teacher gives the gift of living life well.

But, as others have said, this won’t happen by “telling”.

Quoting Posty McPostface
I suspect also, that there's a deeper issue here. We are no longer treated as subjects in academic settings. Instead, we're a bundle of potential utility to the economy, which schools have to realize.


Definitely.

--------

I'll be out for a while.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 01:59 #212771
Quoting javra
I'll be out for a while.


Cheers, thanks for posting! :smile:
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 02:27 #212775
I want to shift the discussion slightly and talk about wants and needs. We all have needs that are either expressed and inferred. The role of education thus should be the ability to create a situation or state of affairs, through education to express and realize those needs. After that ordeal has been realized, then we can look at trying to realize wants.

Yet, wants are tricky because they are temporal and changing. We also face a society where almost all wants can be realized. Nobody cares about positive liberty/freedom or doing what we ought to do. What only matters to an individual and to our consumerist society is the gratification of negative liberties.

Hence, should an aim of education be the entertainment of moral or positive liberties? So, how do we attain an equilibrium of mediating positive freedoms with negative freedoms?

Isaiah Berlin:To admit that the fulfillment of some of our ideas may in principle make the fulfillment of others impossible is to say that the notion of total human fulfillment is a formal contradiction, a metaphysical chimera.
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 18:48 #212852
What about character education? Or learning about homemaking or parenting. Are these things teachable? Given how important they are to the attainment of happiness, then I think they are worthy subjects to include in school.

Would that be impossible to implement?
Shawn September 16, 2018 at 20:36 #212879
I ask myself often why we do so little in schools to promote spiritual well-being.

There was nothing spiritual about going to school in my earlier years. College was mostly devoid of spirituality in my experience also. Given our affinity for Puritanism and Western Christianity, there should be more of an emphasis on this aspect of education, or not?
Pattern-chaser December 14, 2018 at 13:20 #236942
Quoting Wallows
Should happiness be the main aim of education?


Happiness. That's an interesting take on education. :smile: I think there's an obvious answer here: education should prepare us to take part in the grown-up world as well as it can. These preparations could and should take many forms, ways to achieve happiness not being the least of them. :wink:

Education, in practice, and in the present day, is about teaching us to pass tests that should indicate we've learned something. But it's not the 'something' we concentrate on, it's the tests, and the test results. This surely cannot be optimal?