You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Are You Politically Alienated? (Poll)

0 thru 9 August 03, 2018 at 15:19 10650 views 43 comments
POLL: Are you politically alienated?

As opposed to apolitical or centrist or politically apathetic.

If so, why? What thoughts and feelings arise from that?

If not, are you usually in agreement with the politicians or leaders you support? To what extent do you chose the “lesser of two evils” (so to speak)?

In any case, please share your thoughts about the matter...

[ From Wikipedia:

[i] “Political alienation refers to an individual citizen's relatively enduring sense of estrangement from or rejection of the prevailing political system.

Political alienation is not to be confused with voter apathy, which describes a person's indifference to voting and/or the voting process. When politically alienated, people feel compelled to vote, but are restricted by their sense of insignificance to the system. They feel that they are underrepresented or not represented at all by those running for office; their best interest or concerns are not regarded.[1]

Political alienation falls into two broad categories: political incapability and political discontentment. In the first instance, alienation is forced upon the individual by their environment, whereas in the second case it is voluntarily chosen by them.[2]

There are at least five expressions of political alienation:[3]

Political powerlessness. An individual's feeling that they cannot affect the actions of the government.
Political meaninglessness. An individual's perception that political decisions are unclear and unpredictable.
Political normlessness. An individual's perception that norms or rules intended to govern political relations are broken down, and that departures from prescribed behavior are common.
Political isolation. An individual's rejection of political norms and goals that are widely held and shared by other members of a society.
Political disappointment. An individual's disinterest to a political decision or participation because of the ruling class bad behaviors, such as, leaders having scandals by doing shameful things.
Political alienation is adversely related to political efficacy.[2][3]

The most common electoral consequences of political alienation are abstention and protest voting.[2][3]”] [/i]

Comments (43)

Moliere August 03, 2018 at 16:26 #202522
Quoting 0 thru 9
If so, why? What thoughts and feelings arise from that?


Mostly by design. The mixture of the party system and first past the post elections and the amount of political clout money has and the socio-economic class that people in power belong to. Probably some other stuff too.

You get used to it. It's like a natural disaster. You can prepare for the worst, lean on the people you know and trust, and wait and see what happens.
S August 03, 2018 at 16:54 #202530
No. I used to be. I have since joined the Labour Party.
0 thru 9 August 03, 2018 at 16:54 #202531
Reply to Moliere
:up: Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me as well (unfortunately)...
0 thru 9 August 03, 2018 at 16:59 #202533
Also, (if you wish) it may be relevant to indicate one’s current country of residency. And country of birth, if different.

(I’m in the USA, and voted “yes”.)
0 thru 9 August 03, 2018 at 17:22 #202539
Quoting Sapientia
No. I used to be. I have since joined the Labour Party.


Thanks for your reply. I am no expert in the UK political party system, but from what little I do know it seems to be a good deal fairer or at least more representational than the USA (for lack of a better way to put it). This based on the sheer number of parties with some elected officials. But please, anyone comment if that is mistaken or misleading. Of course, no country’s system is perfect.
S August 03, 2018 at 17:38 #202544
Quoting 0 thru 9
Thanks for your reply. I am no expert in the UK political party system, but from what little I do know it seems to be a good deal fairer or at least more representational than the USA (for lack of a better way to put it). This based on the sheer number of parties with some elected officials. But please, anyone comment if that is mistaken or misleading. Of course, no country’s system is perfect.


Yes, it's more of a multi-party system than the US. Of course, most go with one of the two main parties, and more so in the last few years than in previous years, but other parties have been of significance in recent years, such as the LibDems, UKIP, and the SNP. And also, we don't have that weird Electoral College thing.
Ciceronianus August 03, 2018 at 17:38 #202545
I don't support any politician, nor do I have any leader(s), in national government. The executive and legislative branches of our Great Republic are made up of people whose primary concern is to line the pockets of their friends and supporters (and their own). Their secondary concern is to please those who provide them with money and support so that they may continue to address their primary concern.
0 thru 9 August 03, 2018 at 18:07 #202553
Reply to Ciceronianus the White

:up: Yes, the “silenced majority” in the U.S. has lost much faith in the two powerful organizations of the Scylla Party and the Charybdis Party. Whichever is in power at the moment, and which is playing “good cop” to the other sides’ “bad cop”, seems not to make an appreciable difference. I’m waiting patiently and expectantly (and would be joyous) to be proven wrong... I don’t know exactly what I was hoping for with Mr. Obama’s presidency, other than the fact that Richard Cheney would have no part in it. But the sense of disappointment, of simply maintaining the “status quo” is difficult to ignore, IMHO.
0 thru 9 August 05, 2018 at 10:20 #203071
While alienation is far from being a coherent political philosophy, one would hope that the ideas of the politically alienated would vere closer to a strong and well-deserved skepticism than outright paralyzing nihilism. The skepticism of realizing that there has to be another option, somehow someway. Necessity is the mother of (re-) invention.
Marchesk August 05, 2018 at 11:07 #203077
Reply to Ciceronianus the White Or maybe the big flaw in democracy is that it's a vote maximizing system, as Eliezer Yudkowski suggested.
Pattern-chaser August 05, 2018 at 11:41 #203083
Reply to 0 thru 9 I don't feel politically alienated. I feel that there are no politicians with whom I am in sufficient agreement that I would be happy to cast my vote in their favour. In my particular case, I would vote for a proper socialist, if I could find one. In my country, Jeremy Corbyn is the closest we have come to this for a very long time. And I will respond to this by voting for him and his party. So maybe I am as far from political alienation as I have ever been? :up:
gurugeorge August 05, 2018 at 17:45 #203143
Quoting 0 thru 9
Political powerlessness. An individual's feeling that they cannot affect the actions of the government.


This particular point is hilarious.

The basic point of democracy is to avoid civil war by ensuring that the biggest opinion coalition affects the actions of government, and that power is transferred back and forth between the major shifting opinion coalitions in an orderly way, hallowed by tradition.

The tradition of democracy in the West arose out of numerous bloody civil conflicts in Europe, with strongly held opinions on religious and political issues - it was a hard-won lesson on how to keep the peace in a society full of people with strongly held opinions.

That is all, everything else people wish democracy were and imagine democracy is, is fantasy.

Obviously the individual qua individual has no impact, they are only ever a tiny part of a larger coalition.
Aleksander Kvam August 06, 2018 at 02:03 #203266
trust issues and the feeling of apathy towards how things turn out.
allan wallace August 06, 2018 at 02:12 #203269
I have never voted. Those that are elected into office are beholden to their sponsors, not their constituents.

I read somewhere about some graffiti once scrawled on a wall somewhere which makes a good point:'if voting made a difference they'd make it illegal'
Noble Dust August 06, 2018 at 02:16 #203270
Reply to 0 thru 9

I'm politically alienated, apolitical, centrist, and politically apathetic.
prothero August 06, 2018 at 03:54 #203283

https://www.upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think
Put another way, and I'll just quote the Princeton study directly here:
“The preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy."
So yes, I feel politically alienated, congress does not care what I or the majority of Americans think about voting rights, reproductive rights, gun rights, privacy, taxes or pretty much any other issue.

0 thru 9 August 06, 2018 at 12:33 #203359
Quoting allan wallace
I read somewhere about some graffiti once scrawled on a wall somewhere which makes a good point:'if voting made a difference they'd make it illegal'


Ha! Lovely dark humor usually eases the pain for a moment. Like is said about Vegas: “the house always wins”.

There are some honest, caring, hard-working people in elected government. Thank goodness for them. Not exactly sure how they got through the screening process. But they are swimming upstream. They are not the pace-setters. The ones calling the shots may plead that the rules of the game may be unfair, but they didn’t make the rules. No, they didn’t. They just follow the unfair rules unquestioningly. Perhaps until there is a chance to make a big haul by sneaking outside the rules. Like a teenager trying to sneak out of the house after dark to go partying, and come back without being noticed. More difficult now with cameras almost everywhere.

Too generalized and too cynical? Perhaps. But we’re looking for the general big picture, and it’s not too inspiring. And any political story in the media that seems “uplifting” reeks of PR, campaigning, and spin control.
Michael August 06, 2018 at 12:37 #203361
Quoting Sapientia
I have since joined the Labour Party.


What do you get for joining?
0 thru 9 August 06, 2018 at 21:44 #203487
Quoting Sapientia
And also, we don't have that weird Electoral College thing.


Sure, go and brag about it! :razz:

Quoting Marchesk
Or maybe the big flaw in democracy is that it's a vote maximizing system, as Eliezer Yudkowski suggested.


Any possible further comments on this? Or potential solutions? Not that Washington is listening. Well, they’re listening as in eavesdropping, not caring. :zip:

Quoting gurugeorge
That is all, everything else people wish democracy were and imagine democracy is, is fantasy.

Obviously the individual qua individual has no impact, they are only ever a tiny part of a larger coalition.


Well, that one particular point in the Wikipedia article could have been worded better. But I think the gist is accurate of many people. Speaking of fantasy... if before the Middle Class could have imagined that Washington was their cozy chum, that dream is over.
BC August 06, 2018 at 22:24 #203494
Quoting 0 thru 9
POLL: Are you politically alienated?


Is the Pope Catholic?

I voted for "mostly". I was raised to believe politics matter, and in fact it does. Those who wield political power get what they want, and those who have no political power to wield get fucked over by those who do. I voted for "mostly" because I am infested with vestiges of hope that The People will, in the sweet by and by, arise from passivity and at least TRY to take back their share of the country (like, all of it).

Political alienation and hopelessness is not a good thing. People who are really alienated and hopeless are very unlikely to act in their own interests in a strategically effective way. I voted for "mostly" because something may, might, and could possibly happen that would cause renewed interest.

S August 06, 2018 at 22:42 #203505
Quoting Michael
What do you get for joining?


They tell you here. You get a membership card, you can vote in internal elections, and, after one year, you can put yourself forward to stand as an official Labour Party candidate.

I also get a sense of reward, a sense of being part of something bigger than myself, a sense of community, a sense of supporting a cause I believe in, and so on.

Before I joined, I became a Labour Party supporter, which meant I had to make a small, one off, financial contribution of £5, so I could vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the first leadership election. I then decided to join the party. Annoyingly, at the time of the second leadership election, as I had only been a member who had joined within the last six months, the anti-Corbyn faction in the NEC made it so that I had to contribute £30 to vote, but I paid it anyway and voted for Corbyn a second time.
Michael August 06, 2018 at 22:54 #203507
Quoting Sapientia
I also get a sense of reward, a sense of being part of something bigger than myself, a sense of community, a sense of supporting a cause I believe in, and so on.


Sad.
S August 06, 2018 at 22:59 #203508
Quoting Michael
Sad.


:lol:

Why do you think that that's sad? It's not all mushy and in my head, anyway. There were 552,000 members as of January 2018, all of them making a regular financial contribution throughout the duration of their membership.
Michael August 06, 2018 at 23:08 #203510
Quoting Sapientia
Why do you think that that's sad? It's not all mushy and in my head, anyway. There were 552,000 members as of January 2018, all of them making a regular financial contribution throughout the duration of their membership.


552,000 sad people.
Michael August 06, 2018 at 23:10 #203511
Anyway, isn't Corbyn a pro-Russia, pro-Brexit, antisemite? That's what random internet people are saying. Why would you vote for him?
S August 06, 2018 at 23:15 #203514
Quoting Michael
552,000 sad people.


How dare you try, with some degree of success, to out-cynical me?

Quoting Michael
Anyway, isn't Corbyn a pro-Russia, pro-Brexit, antisemite? That's what random internet people are saying. Why would you vote for him?


No, he's not. Those random internet people are shmucks. I would vote for Corbyn because he is a good man, and an inspiration, with good ideas and a willingness and enthusiasm to make them a reality.
S August 06, 2018 at 23:32 #203515
0 thru 9 August 06, 2018 at 23:44 #203519
Quoting Michael
Sad


Well, sometimes it just seems like you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t, and damned before you get the chance to do either. Similar to being in a close relationship. Those that can fight off the distaste and distrust to bring themselves to vote, and otherwise contribute to the political process may be spinning their wheels. Maybe not. People already belong to something larger than themselves. It is life itself. But that is hard to picture or grasp. We also need the rather mundane things too. To keep ourselves rooted somewhere. Ashes to ashes one day, but not quite yet...
0 thru 9 August 06, 2018 at 23:49 #203520
Quoting Sapientia
Boring


I’mmm so bo-o-ored with the U.. S... A! (Feel free to sing along. It’s our new national anthem. That or “White Riot”. :razz: )
0 thru 9 August 07, 2018 at 01:11 #203533
Reply to Bitter Crank

I just realized the irony of asking people who may be politically alienated to vote on something political. :chin: It’s just a poll, but still... you want to say something, even if it’s “ahhhhrrrgggh!!”

Anyway, I agree that one best keep the smallest glimmer of hope. I mean, this isn’t Europe in 1942, things could always be worse. We can shut and lock the door. But it’s too early yet to board up the house, bring out the shotguns, and wait for the opiod and meth-fueled zombie tsunami.
allan wallace August 07, 2018 at 01:26 #203536
Even from where sit here in The Antipodes I know that Jeremy Corbyn is an insipid arsehole, a vacuous populist sycophant that has consistently shown himself to be the atypical politician: a self-serving trough swilling swine that is beholden to his sponsors....
BC August 07, 2018 at 02:44 #203548
Reply to Sapientia Schmucks? Now that you're a party member you're using Yiddish expressions? You must be a dog-whistling Zionist. (joke)

Over in the Desire and a New Fascism thread Unenlightened is plumping for Palestine. He posted a 4 part 100% objective TV program from Al Jazeera on Israel's nefarious activities coordinating anti-Palestinian activities in the UK.

A schmuck is a penis. There are, indeed, a lot of pricks on the Internet.
BC August 07, 2018 at 02:48 #203550
Reply to allan wallace What, in a smallish nutshell, do you have against Corbyn? So many in the UK seem to dislike him with uncharacteristic British passion.
allan wallace August 07, 2018 at 04:33 #203569
G'day Bitter Crank! I'm out in the colonies, a bit further North than Antarctica....

Hmmmm, imagine if you will one of those 'Antifa' parasites scuttling cockroach like across a park in the midst of a small army of similarly attired insects and the aforementioned scuttling cockroach was to trip over one of his undone shoelaces on his rainbow coloured Doc Martins and left to the mercy of the rapidly approaching Constabulary by his cowardly cohorts....as the wailing wretch cowers on the ground he has his mask ripped off! it would come as no surprise to see the visage of the dread Jeremy Corbyn himself! :lol:
BC August 07, 2018 at 05:42 #203576
We have something in common but opposite -- you're close to Antarctica; we get regular doses of arctic air in the winter, the frosty "Alberta clippers".

Reply to allan wallace I'm not fond of the anti-fascists; not that makes me fond of fascists, either. They are both unfriendly rigid doctrinaire authoritarians A plague on both their houses.

So I take it you find in Corbyn an unfriendly rigid doctrinaire type?

allan wallace August 07, 2018 at 06:06 #203581
Erm, yeah, something like that I suppose.... :smile:
S August 07, 2018 at 08:09 #203606
Quoting allan wallace
Even from where sit here in The Antipodes I know that Jeremy Corbyn is an insipid arsehole, a vacuous populist sycophant that has consistently shown himself to be the atypical politician: a self-serving trough swilling swine that is beholden to his sponsors....


Is that gammon I smell? :chin:
Moliere August 08, 2018 at 03:46 #203842
Reply to Bitter Crank Well, it kind of goes hand-in-hand with my whole joy-in-hopelessness thing, but I suppose that in spite of the feeling part of what I mean by "getting used to it" is that you just carry on the best you can. And you really and truly just get over it, and celebrate when things go well, mourn losses, but you stop agonizing over it. The agony wasn't helping out with the whole alienation thing in the first place.

So politics matter, and I still vote because that's where people are at -- it's where people's heads are at when doing politics. And in politics, however bad it gets, it can always get worse -- things are always relatively bad or good, depending on the circumstances.

I surely don't mean to promote hopelessness and alienation to make people do less. Rather, though things feel alienating and hopeless, you can just accept it and keep on going -- I don't like to bullshit people. Doing nothing always brings you nothing, so giving up isn't the right answer if you really care about political outcomes.
gurugeorge August 08, 2018 at 20:21 #204125
Quoting 0 thru 9
But I think the gist is accurate of many people.


Well the gist of it is that the political process has been captured by an unholy alliance of Left-wing ideologues, sundry so-called "experts", NGOs, banks, big corporations and civil servants, so it's no wonder people in general have lost interest in it.
Aleksander Kvam August 08, 2018 at 20:25 #204127
Reply to Michael Im in the liquor party....
0 thru 9 August 31, 2018 at 17:49 #209477
For what it is worth... Still alienated here, lotsa feelings and ideas, but still alienated. It’s probably a fool’s game looking for heroes anywhere. But looking for them in politics is like a high-stakes fool’s game. In my humble opinion...

Only 19 votes in at this point, so it’s really a small sample size. But about 85% saying that they are completely or mostly politically alienated gives some pause. And we are the intellectual elite! :rofl:
ArguingWAristotleTiff August 31, 2018 at 20:26 #209519
Quoting 0 thru 9
For what it is worth... Still alienated here, lotsa feelings and ideas, but still alienated. It’s probably a fool’s game looking for heroes anywhere


For what it is worth, I agree, we need to stop looking for heroes in everyone else, waiting for them to arrive. We are them and we are here. Yet still I feel deep commonality with you, in feeling alienated with lots of feelings and ideas but no where safe to share them.

My Grampa would never disclose whom he voted for no matter how hard I would press him when he was alive. But before I could ask him a second time and frankly I was loaded for bear, he said "Even though I might not ever say who I vote for, it is still every citizens duty to vote for someone. And if people choose not to vote then the words they utter in complaint or compliment mean nothing."

Wisdom imparted. I didn't find it soon enough but I got it now.
0 thru 9 September 19, 2018 at 03:18 #213469
What say for the process of picking Justices for the SCOTUS, we just institute something like the NBA’s draft lottery? Top picks in a bowl, only slightly weighted toward the party currently in power. Silly, but only slightly less strange than the process now, imho...

The whole system, top to bottom and left to right, is most likely beyond repair. It is a broken down, rusted-out car. We can either fix it, get a new one, or toddle along until it dies by the side of the road in a blizzard. (I’m guessing the third choice).

We’re locked in a tailspin. Those that can make a change, won’t. Those that want a change, can’t.
So we wait...