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Trump's organ

Banno July 08, 2018 at 01:39 11125 views 92 comments
“I have broken more Elton John records, he seems to have a lot of records. And I, by the way, I don’t have a musical instrument. I don’t have a guitar or an organ. No organ. Elton has an organ. And lots of other people helping. No, we’ve broken a lot of records. We’ve broken virtually every record. Because you know, look I only need this space. They need much more room. For basketball, for hockey and all of the sports, they need a lot of room. We don’t need it. We have people in that space. So we break all of these records. Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully, the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.”



What are we to make of this?

Comments (92)

Shawn July 08, 2018 at 01:41 #194868
It's a new language.
0 thru 9 July 08, 2018 at 02:14 #194872
That some people have the ability to talk out of an organ other than their mouth? :flower:
Luke July 08, 2018 at 02:17 #194873
I assume he's talking about attendance records.
Shawn July 08, 2018 at 02:19 #194874
The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.


Yes, brain good.
Maw July 08, 2018 at 02:36 #194876
When I first saw this quote being shared around Facebook, I thought it was just a parody. I can't believe he actually said this....
Akanthinos July 08, 2018 at 02:44 #194877
Quoting Banno
What are we to make of this?


Have Elton make a song of it?

Let's all remember that Donald Trump speaks like the majority of Americans, according to his followers.
Shawn July 08, 2018 at 02:45 #194878
Reply to Akanthinos

Let's also remember that through linguistic analysis it's thought that Trump has early stage dementia. Supposedly...
Hanover July 08, 2018 at 02:47 #194879
Quoting Banno
What are we to make of this?


That he is capable of communicating so effectively that he's been able to have secured the most competitive political position in the world, and you lack the comprehension to comprehend him or those who comprehend him.

As Dylan said, "Don't criticize what you can't understand."
Akanthinos July 08, 2018 at 02:49 #194880
Quoting Posty McPostface
that through linguistic analysis it's thought that Trump has early stage dementia.


Lol. "linguistic analysis". That's a really professional way to say he sounds like an idiot. :yum:
Shawn July 08, 2018 at 03:03 #194882
Quoting Hanover
As Dylan said, "Don't criticize what you can't understand."


I'm not sure if there's anything to understand here. Ok, you like the fact that he speaks American? Whoopty-doo, so do many other Americans.
Akanthinos July 08, 2018 at 03:06 #194884
Quoting Posty McPostface
I'm not sure if there's anything to understand here. Ok, you like the fact that he speaks American? Whoopty-doo, so do many other Americans.


No no no. You simply lack the comprehension to comprehend Trump or those who comprehend their comprehension of Trump.

Comprende?
Shawn July 08, 2018 at 03:08 #194885
Reply to Akanthinos

Ohh, then that settles it. Comprende, Senior Akanthinos.
unenlightened July 08, 2018 at 07:15 #194922
Quoting Banno
What are we to make of this?


Fear of castration - "No organ."

Penis envy - "Elton has an organ"

Infantile rage - "we’ve broken a lot of records."[

Orality - "This is the only musical: the mouth.".

He's obviously afraid of his father, and afraid of becoming a woman - almost certainly a repressed homosexual.
Txastopher July 08, 2018 at 07:29 #194925
This is what happens when you fire your speechwriters.
Benkei July 08, 2018 at 09:37 #194947
Reply to unenlightened that made me laugh. :rofl: thanks!
Agustino July 08, 2018 at 09:41 #194950
Quoting Banno
What are we to make of this?

That you have no idea what the context is, and you cannot make a difference between written speech and spoken speech. Watch it here:

Baden July 08, 2018 at 10:42 #194958
Reply to Agustino

It's a horribly incoherent infantile mess. It's only that when you see it spoken in context, and you understand he is referencing the crowd, it doesn't look like he is actually insane. That's a pathetically low bar. Anyone who has ever experienced an accomplished speech would recognize that this is the ramblings of a man-child. We should be standing up for quality not lauding this kind of rubbish. There was a time when oratory was appreciated. This is utterly retrograde, a descent into verbal faeces, and should be called out for that lest we lose sight of the actual potential of the spoken word to evince the higher emotions, intuitions and rational faculties. But yes, journalists are very bad, #MeToo sucks and Elizabeth Warren is Pocahontas. :vomit: :vomit: :vomit:
Maw July 08, 2018 at 12:35 #194968
Reply to Agustino the context doesn't make it any less stupid
Jeremiah July 08, 2018 at 13:20 #194975
Reply to Banno

His speeches make much more sense if you are drunk.
Jeremiah July 08, 2018 at 13:24 #194976
Reply to Hanover

He is also capable of shooting laser beams from his eyes and eating an entire cheeseburger in a single bite.
gurugeorge July 08, 2018 at 15:24 #194993
Reply to Banno Eh? It's not difficult: "We get huge audiences comparable to big musical attractions like Elton John, without the benefit of any special musical talent or any requirement for a big space such as big sports events would need, because I'm a great speaker and I'm a stable genius."

What's not to like?
Shawn July 08, 2018 at 15:36 #194994
Quoting gurugeorge
What's not to like?


Being trolled by a die hard fan?
Baden July 08, 2018 at 17:28 #195013
Quoting gurugeorge
What's not to like?


The fact that without visual clues it needs to be translated into English to be properly understood, that any random imbecile can babble on like that and similarly doesn't deserve a huge audience in front of which to do so, that it's narcissistic, empty, and lacking all rhetorical flourish and skill, that it encourages similar stupidities of speech, that it motivates an utterly vacuous and partisan defence along the delusional lines that such a lack of style and content indicates an anti-elite everyman mindset (though Trump clearly considers himself the elite of the elite), that nobody gives a flying fuck about Elton John any more (it's not the eighties, Don), that it's simply an utterly shit example of public speech. And so on. (I could go on).
Baden July 08, 2018 at 17:34 #195014
Trump's vocal chords should be extracted and medically inserted up his anus, so verbal and literal diarhhoea can at last be at one.
Baden July 08, 2018 at 17:36 #195015
I don't like Trump or his organ much. Did I mention that? :grin:
ArguingWAristotleTiff July 08, 2018 at 17:47 #195017
Quoting Baden
I don't like Trump or his organ much. Did I mention that?


Once or twice a day? :chin:
Agustino July 08, 2018 at 17:52 #195020
Reply to Baden Why has Trump's job approval been on the rise ever since December 13 2017?

https://realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html
Baden July 08, 2018 at 17:55 #195021
Reply to Agustino

Why is a poisonously unhealthy beverage like Coca Cola the most popular soft drink in the world?

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's likely to continue until he's either impeached or undergoes the services of a professional taxidermist and is put on display in the Smithsonian.
Agustino July 08, 2018 at 17:58 #195022
Quoting Baden
Why is a poisonously unhealthy beverage like Coca Cola the most popular soft drink in the world?

Because 95%+ of people are idiots. But if I say that, you'll call me an anti-social elitist!
Baden July 08, 2018 at 18:03 #195023
Reply to Agustino

Falling for marketing/PR doesn't make you an "idiot" and Trump voters, Trump supporters and Coca Cola drinkers are not idiots just because of those preferences. Some of them do need to aim for higher standards with regard to their gustatory and auditory intake though.
Relativist July 08, 2018 at 18:10 #195024
It seems to me, an objective Trump supporter ought to acknowldge Trump's deficiencies even if he embraces most of what Trump does. We will always have political differences, but we should be able to agree on what constitutes inappropriate, or alarming, behavior.
Baden July 08, 2018 at 18:17 #195026
Reply to Relativist

Yes, and just to make it clear, I'm not objecting to anything political in this. It's a purely aesthetic aversion, a rhetorical allergy, if you will, to these linguistic torments.

But trying to find something, anything, redeeming here.

Maybe a twisted resonance of Beckett?

[quote=Trump]This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully, the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.[/quote]

[quote=Beckett - (Not I) ]reflex they call it ... no feeling of any kind ... but the lids ... even best of times ... who feels them? ... opening ... shutting ... all that moisture ... but the brain still ... still sufficiently ... oh very much so! ... at this stage ... in control ... under control ... to question even this ...[/quote]

http://www.ricorso.net/rx/library/authors/classic/Beckett_S/Not_I.htm

May the gods of literature have mercy on my soul.

Hanover July 08, 2018 at 18:20 #195028
Reply to Baden Coca cola was invented in Atlanta and the world headquarters is here. The reason people drink it is because it's delicious. People die from haters like you, not from a can of Coke. Coke does nothing but bring people together.
Baden July 08, 2018 at 18:22 #195029
Quoting Hanover
Coke does nothing but bring people together.


True, your mother and I owe more than you know to Coke.

[Edit: Apologies to all for mistaking this for the Lounge and not yet mastering the art of talking about Trump before descending into absurd, sexual and/or scatological references.]
Hanover July 08, 2018 at 18:24 #195031
Reply to Baden Last off point comment, I promise, but what's worse than a live squirrel on your piano?

A dead beaver on your organ.
S July 08, 2018 at 19:19 #195049
Reply to Agustino Lol. You think it sounds much better when spoken? Either way, it comes across as childish boastful nonsense. His mouth is moving. He's definitely talking. But he's really not saying much.
BC July 08, 2018 at 19:27 #195050
Quoting Posty McPostface
early stage dementia


Early stage?
BC July 08, 2018 at 19:39 #195056
Reply to Banno Trump has an unfortunate habit of free associating in front of the media, large crowds, etc. Normally this sort of speech is performed in front of one's psychoanalyst.

Don't expect any improvement. Donald is an old duck with lots of oil in his feathers and criticism just beads up and rolls off. Nothing sticks.

Quoting Baden
Why is a poisonously unhealthy beverage like Coca Cola the most popular soft drink in the world?


Other than a sizable dose of sugar, [about the same as orange juice] what is poisonous in a can of Coca Cola? What's not to like about it? Did you see the Australian movie, "The Coca Cola Kid?" Coca Cola will be preserved as an American Heritage Beverage after the Revolution. If you don't like it now, you will like it after the Revolution. A properly done hamburger, fries, and a coke has a eucharistic quality to it.
BC July 08, 2018 at 19:42 #195058
Quoting Hanover
?Baden Last off point comment, I promise, but what's worse than a live squirrel on your piano?

A dead beaver on your organ.


This is a timeless joke. Very good. Baden probably doesn't like it. Too sexist.
0 thru 9 July 08, 2018 at 21:55 #195078
Quoting Bitter Crank
Other than a sizable dose of sugar, [about the same as orange juice] what is poisonous in a can of Coca Cola? What's not to like about it? Did you see the Australian movie, "The Coca Cola Kid?" Coca Cola will be preserved as an American Heritage Beverage after the Revolution. If you don't like it now, you will like it after the Revolution. A properly done hamburger, fries, and a coke has a eucharistic quality to it.


The meal combination you mentioned is indeed a tasty treat. Emphasis on the word “treat”. Unfortunately, a can of Coke or Pepsi can deliver a sizable percentage of RDA of empty-calorie carbs in about 5 seconds flat, the way most kids drink it. With the tooth-rotting power of the phosphoric acid, combined with the jolt of sugar and caffeine, in my opinion it’s practically meth lite in a can. Former cola and mountain dew addict speaking. Much happier and healthier without it. Just my two cents. Back to the discussion of the leader of the fast food world... :point:
frank July 08, 2018 at 22:30 #195085
Reply to Bitter Crank I think it's supposed to be "diseased beaver."
Janus July 08, 2018 at 23:32 #195098
Reply to frank

Would that make it somewhat better or somewhat worse?
Maw July 08, 2018 at 23:43 #195102
I wouldn't be surprised if Trump has Alzheimer's or something.
frank July 09, 2018 at 00:10 #195111
Quoting Janus
Would that make it somewhat better or somewhat worse?


"Dead" would be a tad more perverse I think.
Janus July 09, 2018 at 00:20 #195116
Reply to frank

Maybe, but then it depends on what is meant by "dead". Literally or metaphorically dead.
Janus July 09, 2018 at 00:21 #195118
Reply to Maw

At least one of his organs is sub-par.
frank July 09, 2018 at 00:26 #195121
Quoting Janus
metaphorically dead.

:chin:
BC July 09, 2018 at 00:27 #195122
Reply to frank I've never heard the joke that way, but I have very little beaver-lore to go on.
Janus July 09, 2018 at 00:28 #195123
Reply to frank

You know, like lifeless, as in "it was a lifeless performance".
Agustino July 09, 2018 at 08:48 #195182
Reply to Baden And while I don't agree with the extreme position Trump takes on some issues, I am sympathetic to his overall approach. I think we do need more protectionism, we do need to reform the global economy to make it easier to do business, we do need to escape political correctness, we do need all these things.

Listen to this speech, and tell me you disagree:



This speech was a political earthquake, you cannot find one like it in recent history.
gurugeorge July 09, 2018 at 09:17 #195187
Quoting Baden
that nobody gives a flying fuck about Elton John any more


Just taking this point, that's part of the charm. The fact that he's not a "smooth-talking liberal" hep to the lastest popular music trends, is part of why he's loved. (Compare and contrast Hillary desperately trying to ally herself with popular celebrities.)

You just don't understand how much everything from "politics as usual" to the cult of political correctness is hated and loathed by ordinary people. The feeling in the country among the working classes and lower middle classes (and around the world, with the general populist revolts) is one of extreme dislike of university-indoctrinated, free riding elites, and what they've been doing to the world, comparable to the hate for rentier aristocrats during the French revolution.
Michael July 09, 2018 at 09:33 #195189
Quoting gurugeorge
The feeling in the country among the working classes and lower middle classes (and around the world, with the general populist revolts) is one of extreme dislike of university-indoctrinated, free riding elites


Trump went to an Ivy League university and inherited a $200 million ($800 million adjusted for inflation) business from his father.
Baden July 09, 2018 at 09:51 #195193
Reply to Agustino

Kim Kardashian can read lies off a teleprompter too. This is one that he didn't write. That's obvious because it's coherent if ironic. It's a run of the mill populist speech written probably by Bannon or Miller. More a loud fart than an earthquake.

Anyway, looking at the main points :

Reducing the power of special interests? I agree of course. Unfortunately and predictably, there are more than ever. It was gullible of you to believe him on that point.

"The numbers compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan organization that tracks money in American politics, might not seem surprising. The amount spent on lobbying during the first nine months of Donald Trump’s presidency, it found, was higher than in any corresponding period since 2012."

"President Donald Trump and his appointees have stocked federal agencies with ex-lobbyists and corporate lawyers who now help regulate the very industries from which they previously collected paychecks, despite promising as a candidate to drain the swamp in Washington."

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/opinion/lobbyists-washington-trump.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lobbyists-get-ethics-waivers-to-work-for-trump-despite-executive-order/

(If you don't like these sources there are hundreds more demonstrating that this is one of the most corrupt administrations in modern history.)

Protectionism. The jobs he talks about protecting are gone and not coming back. His trade war is an infantile exercise in futility. Ask any economist.

Political correctness: So, POTUS gets to call his rivals "Pocahontas" and laugh at abused women and you call that progress? Sorry, but how is the President licensing this kind of childish vulgarity desirable? Would you want your kids talking like him?



Michael July 09, 2018 at 11:17 #195210
Quoting Baden
President Donald Trump and his appointees have stocked federal agencies with ex-lobbyists and corporate lawyers who now help regulate the very industries from which they previously collected paychecks, despite promising as a candidate to drain the swamp in Washington.


Like the EPA.

First there was Pruitt, who as attorney general for Oklahoma dissolved the Environmental Protection Unit and raised campaign contributions from the energy industry, including $300,000 from the oil and gas industry. He'd also sued the EPA 13 times.

Now there's Andrew Wheeler, a former coal industry lobbyist.
Baden July 09, 2018 at 13:58 #195233
Another typical example of Trump admin corruption: Ryan Zinke charged taxpayers $139,000 dollars to fix three doors in his office. This is the type of change you're lauding as a political earthquake @Agustino. I suppose it is in terms of the massive damage caused and associated costs to the taxpayer, but otherwise not so much. Simple message: Stop being so gullible and open your eyes. Trump and his cronies are lining their pockets and laughing at the fools who thought they'd "drain the swamp".

http://www.newsweek.com/ryan-zinke-spent-139k-doors-here-are-all-trump-officials-caught-misspending-838047
unenlightened July 09, 2018 at 14:08 #195241
Reply to Baden That's how you break records without an organ; you can't inflate your organ, you inflate what you can. Just like you can't do anything with a pussy but grab at it.
Hanover July 09, 2018 at 14:31 #195245
Quoting Baden
Another typical example of Trump admin corruption: Ryan Zinke charged taxpayers $139,000 dollars to fix three doors in his office.


It's outrageous no doubt, but you've not drawn a link back from the door repair man to Zinke. It's possible that the person who hired the door fixer man was hooking a friend up, getting a kick-back, or paid so little attention to things that people ran amok. It's possible Zinke orchestrated the whole thing, but also possible he didn't know. We can speculate, be cynical, be naïve, be supportive, be critical, be whatever. All I can say is that if I had it to do all over again and could rethink my vote, I'd vote for Trump again.
Baden July 09, 2018 at 14:42 #195249
Quoting Hanover
All I can say is that if I had it to do all over again and could rethink my vote, I'd vote for Trump again.


Trump would literally have to defecate in your MAGA cap for you to change your vote, so unless I can get him to do that, I'm not expecting a different answer from you, or any Trump voter. Maybe I can get him to do that. I'll work on it.

Apologies @Banno, I'm using the nauseous gases emitted by Trump and his merry band of reverse Robin Hoods to fuel an OP that may have more on its original flight path that I've missed. Where to next?

ArguingWAristotleTiff July 09, 2018 at 15:07 #195253
Quoting Hanover
All I can say is that if I had it to do all over again and could rethink my vote, I'd vote for Trump again.


I second that vote. :up:
frank July 09, 2018 at 16:20 #195265
Quoting Hanover
All I can say is that if I had it to do all over again and could rethink my vote, I'd vote for Trump again.


You can't go back and change it so who cares?
Hanover July 09, 2018 at 18:47 #195284
Quoting Baden
Trump would literally have to defecate in your MAGA cap for you to change your vote, so unless I can get him to do that, I'm not expecting a different answer from you, or any Trump vote


Trump is too classy to take a hat shit.
Hanover July 09, 2018 at 18:48 #195285
Quoting frank
You can't go back and change it so who cares?


You don't know what I can do.
frank July 09, 2018 at 19:34 #195288
Quoting Hanover
You don't know what I can do.


You don't know what I know.
S July 09, 2018 at 21:22 #195311
Reply to Agustino The first sixty seconds alone is full of unintentional comic irony. A known racist tries to win over the African American vote, and a corrupt fat cat claims he has no part in the corruption. He has thrived on the corruption inherent in the system. He has exacerbated it!
S July 09, 2018 at 21:30 #195312
Quoting Baden
His trade war is an infantile exercise in futility. Ask any economist.


It's worse than futility. It's counterproductive. He is cutting off his nose to spite his face. @Agustino, read what [i]The Economist[/I] has to say about it.
Baden July 09, 2018 at 21:48 #195315
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

The prize for your loyalty will be an end to Roe v Wade, an extra two trillion in debt you pass on to the next generation, and a debasement of political discourse including the legitimization of sexism, racism and anti-semitism that will stain your country for years to come. Not to mention Trump's trolling laughter when he walks away from the mess he has created into a huge TV deal.
Hanover July 09, 2018 at 23:05 #195333
Reply to Baden Or not. That's the other potential outcome.
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 08:42 #195484
Quoting Baden
end to Roe v Wade

When I was telling you it's gonna happen, you didn't believe me :wink:
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 08:42 #195486
I don't see what's so bad about it going to state level. Maybe some communities don't want all kinds of abortions to be legal. They should have this right.
Michael July 10, 2018 at 08:47 #195487
Quoting Agustino
Maybe some communities don't want all kinds of abortions to be legal. They should have this right.


Well that's the great debate. They shouldn't have this right because a) the Constitution gives women the right to end their pregnancy, and so the states don't have the legal right to restrict it or b) women have the natural right to end their pregnancy, and so states shouldn't have the legal right to restrict it.
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 08:48 #195489
Quoting Michael
b) women have the natural right to choose to end their pregnancy, and so states shouldn't have the legal right to restrict it.

I don't think this is a "natural" right at all.

Quoting Michael
a) the Constitution gives women the right to have an abortion, and so the states don't have the right to restrict it

Then the Constitution is wrong, how about we change it?
Michael July 10, 2018 at 08:50 #195490
Quoting Agustino
I don't think this is a "natural" right at all.


Hence the great debate. Some say it is, others say it isn't. Some say people have the natural right to use firearms in self-defence, others say they don't.

Quoting Agustino
Then the Constitution is wrong, how about we change it?


That's what the Amendment process is for.
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 08:51 #195491
Quoting Michael
Hence the great debate. Some say it is, others say it isn't. Some say people have the natural right to use firearms in self-defence, others say they don't.

There are some matters which don't concern merely the person in question. The life of a child, for example, doesn't concern just the mother. It concerns the rest of society as well. An abortion isn't something the mother does herself, it's something that we, the rest of us, have to do for her. She shouldn't be able to force us to do it for her.
Michael July 10, 2018 at 08:55 #195495
Quoting Agustino
She shouldn't be able to force us to do it for her.


She isn't. There are plenty of doctors who are willing. What Roe vs Wade ensured is that no state can make it illegal to have an abortion. That's not the same as ensuring that no doctor can refuse to perform it.
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 09:01 #195498
Quoting Michael
She isn't. There are plenty of doctors who are willing. What Roe vs Wade ensured is that no state can make it illegal to have an abortion. That's not the same as ensuring that no doctor can refuse to perform it.

Yes, but the community should be able to control its own standards of decency. If liberal Cali's want to have abortion after abortion, that's their problem. But maybe Texans want no abortions in their communities. So that's precisely the problem, that Roe v Wade is controlling how communities are organised. One cannot organise a community where abortions are prohibited.
Michael July 10, 2018 at 09:08 #195499
Quoting Agustino
But maybe Texans want no abortions in their communities.


Then it sucks to be them. Because a woman's right to have an abortion (performed by a willing doctor) is more important than other people's desire not to have abortions performed in their community.

Just as I'm sure others will say that a person's right to possess a firearm for self-defence is more important than other people's desire not to have firearms in their community.
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 09:09 #195500
Quoting Michael
Just as I'm sure others will say that a person's right to possess a firearm for self-defence is more important than other people's desire not to have firearms in their community.

I disagree on that.

Quoting Michael
Because a woman's right to have an abortion (performed by a willing doctor) is more important than other people's desire not to have abortions performed in their community.

I disagree. There needs to be a point when the desires of the collective trump the desires of the individual.
Baden July 10, 2018 at 09:12 #195502
Reply to Agustino

My political predictions haven't been much better than my footballing ones. :sad:
Erik July 10, 2018 at 09:24 #195505
Quoting Agustino
Yes, but the community should be able to control its own standards of decency. If liberal Cali's want to have abortion after abortion, that's their problem. But maybe Texans want no abortions in their communities. So that's precisely the problem, that Roe v Wade is controlling how communities are organised. One cannot organise a community where abortions are prohibited.


As much as I personally dislike the idea of abortion, I don't think the govt should get involved in this issue, or should legislate morality more generally outside of those issues which clearly impact others in the community in adverse ways.

In my naivety I think people should be led to do what's right and honorable and noble through free choice rather than through government or other forms of external compulsion. And I say that as someone who identifies as a social conservative in many ways.

Best to work at shifting public opinion at the grassroots level.

Agustino July 10, 2018 at 09:26 #195508
Quoting Erik
As much as I personally dislike the idea of abortion, I don't think the govt should get involved in this issue, or should legislate morality more generally outside of those issues which clearly impact others in the community in adverse ways.

In my naivety I think people should be led to do what's right and honorable and noble through free choice rather than through government or other forms of external compulsion. And I say that as someone who identifies as a social conservative in many ways. Best to work at shifting public opinion at the grassroots level.

I agree, long term that is the adequate strategy. At the same time... is everyone capable of it?
Agustino July 10, 2018 at 09:26 #195509
And if they are not, what does that mean?
Michael July 10, 2018 at 09:32 #195512
Quoting Agustino
There needs to be a point when the desires of the collective trump the desires of the individual.


Why? And this isn't just about desires but also about rights. Rights, presumably, are more important than desires. If the woman has a right to end her pregnancy and the community only has the desire not to have abortions performed in their community, then the individual right trumps the collective desire.
Michael July 10, 2018 at 09:34 #195513
The right of some gay man to live in peace is more important than the collective desires of some homophobic community, for example.
Erik July 10, 2018 at 09:47 #195515
Quoting Agustino
And if they are not, what does that mean?


Depends on the specific act and what type of impact is has on others. I tend in the direction of preserving individual freedom over the desires of the collective - especially on issues related to sex - even though I think that genuine freedom involves much more than license, and would include the factoring in of the affect of one's actions on the wider community.

ArguingWAristotleTiff July 10, 2018 at 13:33 #195603
Quoting Baden
The prize for your loyalty will be an end to Roe v Wade, an extra two trillion in debt you pass on to the next generation, and a debasement of political discourse including the legitimization of sexism, racism and anti-semitism that will stain your country for years to come.


CNN talking points which is really speculation, no?
Baden July 10, 2018 at 13:40 #195604
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

CNN are not the ones aiming to take away your abortion rights by repealing Roe v Wade, Tiff, that's Trump's stated aim. It's on the record. Look it up. He may fail, but if he does it will be despite your help and support and misguided loyalty.
Baden July 10, 2018 at 13:42 #195605
(And though he'll be happy to deny you your reproductive rights, you can bet your ass if his organ had managed to get the porn star pregnant, he would have been serenading her all the way to an abortion clinic.)
ArguingWAristotleTiff July 10, 2018 at 13:53 #195609
Quoting Baden
CNN are not the ones aiming to take away your abortion rights by repealing Roe v Wade, Tiff, that's Trump's stated aim. It's on the record. Look it up. He may fail, but if he does it will be despite your help and support and misguided loyalty.


"Ending Roe v Wade" which is what you stated is the same talking point of CNN and NBC, who are all reporting how the new justice will vote on the case that may never see the light of day for change.
It is all speculation, nothing more. IF more comes of it, we will handle it then.

However "an extra two trillion in debt you pass on to the next generation, and a debasement of political discourse including the legitimization of sexism, racism and anti-semitism that will stain your country for years to come" are your words and opinions not the words of our present administration.

Unless you can provide citation of who said that WE as a nation are going to legalize sexism, racism and anti-Semitism, it is all speculation.

Baden July 10, 2018 at 14:00 #195610
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
"Ending Roe v Wade" which is what you stated is the same talking points of CNN and NBC,


If you don't even know what Trump supports or what he said, you are in no position to argue. What I said is straight from Trump not the CNN/NBC bogeyman.


Wallace: What I am asking you is do you want to see the court overturn Roe v Wade?

Trump: If we put two or three justices on...that will happen, and that will happen automatically because I am putting pro-life justices on the court.

I quoted Trump so if you want to argue, argue with him.

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
Unless you can provide citation of who said that WE as a nation are going to legalize sexism, racism and anti-Semitism, it is all speculation.


You need to look up the word "legitimization" in a dictionary, Tiff.
ArguingWAristotleTiff July 10, 2018 at 14:15 #195617
Quoting Baden
If you don't even know what Trump supports or what he said, you are in no position to argue. What I said is straight from Trump not the CNN/NBC bogeyman


I understand what Trump said but I also know that CNN and NBC are pushing the point that Roe v Wade will be overturned, as if abortion rights are the only subject that SCOTUS will rule on. If Roe v Wade is overturned, the rights to abortion will return to states rights and that is one step closer to what the people of that state want.

Quoting Baden
You need to look up the word "legitimization" in a dictionary, Tiff.


I intentionally bolded "legitimization" when I quoted you and I responded withlegalization.
A LOT of ideas are lent legitimization simply by being held by a leader such as the President but that doesn't make it legitimate. President Bush believes in creationism but do you think that because of that perspective, that the USA citizen who believed in evolution up until he took office now believes in creationism as well?
Come on Baden, give the "WE" who make up the USA a little more credit than that.
Baden July 10, 2018 at 14:23 #195627
Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

My point has nothing to do with CNN though. I don't have much time to watch CNN talk about it, and I don't care what they say. I quoted Trump pretty much directly. His opinion is what matters here as well as that of the judge he appoints.

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
If Roe v Wade is overturned, the rights to abortion will return to states rights and that is one step closer to what the people want.


? You want it overturned then? What people? About 70% of Americans according to polls want it to stay.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/03/about-seven-in-ten-americans-oppose-overturning-roe-v-wade/

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
I intentionally bolded "legitimization" when I quoted you and I responded withlegalization.
A LOT of ideas are lent legitimization simply by being held by a leader such as the President but that doesn't make it legitimate. President Bush believes in creationism but do you think that because of that perspective, that the USA citizen who believed in evolution up until he took office now believes in creationism as well?
Come on Baden, give the "WE" who make up the USA a little more credit than that.


It affects the public discourse negatively, Tiff, that's the stain I'm talking about. I don't think it's going to make everyone racist etc. Obviously it's not. But many people who have a racist streak in them feel emboldened more to express it now. They say that themselves in alt-right publications.
Banno July 12, 2018 at 23:37 #196290
Damn. Ninety one comments after one post. So close.