Americans afraid of their own government, why?

Reply to Posty McPostface

It's amusing that the paranoid republican right wing who are among the most likely (along with libertarians) to argue fear of government as a reason to oppose gun control also seem to be among the most likely to support massive spending increases for the military. Go figure. Anyway, the paranoia is a kind of a cultural game I think along the lines of religious belief. At base level, you express it to be in with the crowd you want to be in with. So, you only put it into practice then to the extent it appears credible to your peers, and believe it to the extent necessary that your actions become credible to yourself.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

One positive thing that I have noticed, though, is that Trump didn't continue the legacy of Bush and Obama in regards to the war on terror.

Anyone know if Chomsky has already addressed this question, as I'm sure he has? He doesn't get mentioned enough on the forums when it comes to US politics.

Quoting Posty McPostface

One phenomenon that strikes me as strange, and which is not even a recent thing is the amount of paranoia and fear towards our own government.

Maybe because they should be afraid.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

Here's a short article from Chomsky on the issue, more or less:

Quoting Noam Chomsky

Noam Chomsky: Why Americans Are Paranoid About Everything (Including Zombies)
Noam Chomsky explains why Americans have always had high levels of fear -- fear of Indians, of African-Americans ... even zombies.

Question: This might sound kind of random, but I would really like to ask your opinion of why you think there's this preoccupation with the apocolypse and with zombies right now in our culture.

Noam Chomsky: I've never seen a real study, but my guess is that it's a reflection of fear and desperation. It's a very frightened country. The United States is an unusually frightened country. And in such circumstances, people concoct either for escape or maybe out of relief, fears that terrible things happen.

Actually, the fear of the United States is a pretty interesting cultural phenomenon. It actually goes back to the colonies. There are some good studies out there. A very interesting book by a literary critic, Bruce Franklin. It's called War Stars. You might want to take a look at it. It's a study of popular literature, the kind of literature that most people read from the earliest days to the present. When it gets to the present it switches to television, things like that. Just kind of popular culture.

There are a couple of themes that run through it that are pretty striking. For one thing, one major theme in popular literature is that we are about to face destruction from some terrible, awesome enemy. And at the last minute we are saved by a superhero or a super weapon, or in recent years high school kids going to the hills to chase away the Russians, things like that. That's one theme that runs through constantly. And there's a sub-theme. It turns out this enemy, this horrible enemy that's about to destroy us, is somebody we're crushing.

So you go back to the early years, the terrible enemy was the Indians, who were going to destroy us. The colonists were, of course, invaders. They were invading the continent. Whatever you think about the Indians, they were defending their own territory. There's a scene in the Declaration of Independence, people read it every July 4th, but not many people pay attention to what they're reading. It's kind of like a prayer book, you move on somewhere else. But if you read it and pay attention, there are some pretty remarkable passages. So one passage is a list of a bill of indictment against King George the Third of England explaining why the colonists were revolting. One of them is “He unleashed against us the merciless Indian savages, whose known way of warfare is torture and destruction” and so on. Well, Thomas Jefferson, who wrote that and is a very great thinker of the Enlightenment, knew perfectly well that it was the merciless English savages whose known way of warfare was destruction and murder and were taking over the country and driving out or exterminating the natives. But it's switched in the Declaration of Independence and nobody comments on it for years. That's another sign of the same concern.

After that it became the slaves. There was going to be a slave revolt, a terrible slave revolt, and the slave population, the black population was going to rise up and kill all the men, rape all the women, destroy the country, something like that. Then it goes on through the centuries. It becomes modern times, Hispanic narco-traffickers are going to come in and destroy the society. One thing after another. And these are real fears.

That's a lot of what lies behind the extremely unusual gun culture in the United States. It's quite unique. Homicides, deaths by guns in the United States are way outside—there's a kind of hysteria about having guns. A large part of the population believes they just have to have them to protect themselves. From who? From the United Nations. Or from the federal government. From aliens. Maybe from zombies. Whoever it is. We just have to have guns to protect ourselves. That's not known elsewhere in the world. Maybe in, say, Syria, a country that's warring you might find something like that. But in a country that's not only at peace but has an unusual security and a great degree of freedom, that's quite remarkable.

I suspect that what you're bringing up is part of that. I think it's, much of it is kind of just a recognition, at some level of the psyche, that if you've got your boot on somebody's neck, there's something wrong. And that the people you're oppressing may rise up and defend themselves, and then you're in trouble. And another is strange properties the country has always had of fear of invented dangers. There is a kind of paranoid streak in the culture that's pretty unusual.

God's teeth. Does Noam Chomsky know everything? Whether he does or not, must we so persistently learn what he thinks and alert others when we do so? He's become a kind of modern, but prolix, version of the Oracle of Delphi.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

God's teeth. Does Noam Chomsky know everything?

Most certainly not. Although, he does know a lot, more than I do.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Whether he does or not, must we so persistently learn what he thinks and alert others when we do so?

What do you disagree with in his short analysis of the underlying fear, paranoia, and distrust prevalent in the US?

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

He's become a kind of modern, but prolix, version of the Oracle of Delphi.

Not around here, at least. I haven't seen him mentioned that much on issues pertaining politics hereabouts.

Reply to Posty McPostface What an awfully long way to say "Americans are obsessed with guns because they're afraid that someone they're oppressing will become dangerous".

Quoting Baden

At base level, you express it to be in with the crowd you want to be in with. So, you only put it into practice then to the extent it appears credible to your peers, and believe it to the extent necessary that your actions become credible to yourself.

The blue lie, where believing or supporting a lie is an expression of solidarity, is scary because it could lead to another four years of Trump, and of course because it's irrational.

Reply to Posty McPostface I'm not sure what you mean by "around here" but when I searched for "Chomsky" I came up with 253 mentions, which I would think isn't bad as far as mentions go.

As to what he says as quoted above, I'm not sure if he's addressing (1) why Americans are afraid of their government; or (2) "fear of the United States"; or why Americans fear (or hate) others, using Indians and slaves as examples. I think it's a confusing response, as I think these are different issues. I, personally, don't know what to say about zombies. I don't understand why people find them interesting. As for visions of the apocalypse, I'd be more inclined to point to the fact that the end of the world seems to be the peculiar fascination of many American Christians, who've been eagerly awaiting it for quite a long time and apparently believe it will be spectacular. It may even involve zombies of a sort.

Speaking only for myself, I think our government is largely corrupt, as it is so entirely dependent on money and so influenced primarily by those who have it and are willing to spend it in assuring politicians will do their bidding. So, I don't admire or trust our government. I don't particularly fear it at this time.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

I'm not sure what you mean by "around here" but when I searched for "Chomsky" I came up with 253 mentions, which I would think isn't bad as far as mentions go.

I was speaking comparatively, to the old PF, where we even had a bot (think it was called ModBot), made by Paul, that would quote Chomsky whenever his name was mentioned or something like that.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

As to what he says as quoted above, I'm not sure if he's addressing (1) why Americans are afraid of their government; or (2) "fear of the United States"; or why Americans fear (or hate) others, using Indians and slaves as examples. I think it's a confusing response, as I think these are different issues.

Well, it is just a manifestation of the underlying fear and paranoia in the US. I'm no authority on the issue, and hope someone can reassure me that cool reason will prevail in the end. Anyway, I can search for statistics in some cherry picking manner to support my point of people being paranoid and fearful of the government in the US. Think about the loony conspiracy theories around 9/11, JFK's assassination, the ambiguous role of the CIA/NSA, the appalling distrust of the FBI among the general population. Data collection by the NSA and other alphabet agencies on civilians... etc.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

Speaking only for myself, I think our government is largely corrupt, as it is so entirely dependent on money and so influenced primarily by those who have it and are willing to spend it in assuring politicians will do their bidding. So, I don't admire or trust our government. I don't particularly fear it at this time.

Well, that's a depressing state of affairs to hold in your mind. I don't know what to say to that sentiment, other than maybe I'm just naive on the matter.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Anyway, I can search for statistics in some cherry picking manner to support my point of people being paranoid and fearful of the government in the US.

The term "paranoid" implies the fear is irrational, so you'd need to compare that data to actual dangers. I'm not paranoid for wanting to own a gun in the Middle East, and neither are the Americans afraid for no reason (although the fear of the conspiracy theorists is irrationally targeted towards stupid beliefs, sorry to put it so bluntly). I refer to the link I posted before, to this ridiculously long list.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I was speaking comparatively, to the old PF, where we even had a bot (think it was called ModBot), made by Paul, that would quote Chomsky whenever his name was mentioned or something like that.

It was Chomskybot, I think. I confess I miss Chomskybot.

Reply to Posty McPostface America was founded in rebellion upon the premise that government stood in the way of liberty. A Constitution was created that limited the power of government due to distrust of government. The 2nd Amendment does not stand alone for that proposition, but all the enumerated rights, from the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, the right to free speech, and the right not to have soldiers stationed in your home all are checks on governmental power.

It is not a new thing, but it is the essence of Americanism, and like all things traditionally American, it is more embraced by Republicans than Democrats, who for some reason are enamored by the European ideology America very intentionally stood in opposition to.

Reply to Hanover The America and Europe of yesteryear are not the same as today's. "Traditional" isn't synonymous with "correct". I mean, Republicans are fine with the massive military invading other nations at a whim (on second thought, that's pretty American), intentionally crippling the security of technology so they (and thus any government or sufficiently powerful corporation) can spy on Americans, or crush unions and protests because business and government don't help each other out, etc.

These are core to the Republican Party in particular (Democrats love it too), who champion these as good. Yet they are inarguably examples of unchecked government power.

Reply to Posty McPostface I like the guy, but Professor Chomsky is just about 90 years old. Maybe he isn't writing fresh, interesting analyses anymore. I mean, one can't keep pulling fresh political analysis rabbits out of the hat forever.

Quoting Posty McPostface

What's the underlying source of all this fear and paranoia?

One of the things that stimulates paranoia and fear is erratic change and uncertainty. Americans, like people all over the world are more subject to unexpected changes and uncertainty; it's destabilizing, especially when some of the changes mean worsening conditions, and some mean improving conditions.

Lots of people are getting jacked around by economic forces directed from distant locations, and people think the government is behind it. Sometimes the Gov is behind it; other times, not.

As Hanover mentioned, negative thoughts about "government" have been floating around in this country since the Puritans set up shop in Boston.

We have had an extreme wing of the Paranoia Party for a long time. They used to have to depend on the U.S. Mails to communicate with each other. For the last couple of decades we have had improved electronic communication which has greatly facilitated the outreach efforts of the Paranoia Party Public Relations Office. They are now able to promote their shit as cherry pie and they would like everybody to have a piece.

However: Annoyance, suspicion, anger, dissatisfaction, disgust, unfulfilled expectations, and such feelings directed toward the government are much, much more common than fear of persecution. They are also different. I don't feel much fear, but I do often find the performance of the government unsatisfactory and at times disgusting. Don't conflate fear with disgust.

Just say NO to fear and paranoia.

Quoting Posty McPostface

One positive thing that I have noticed, though, is that Trump didn't continue the legacy of Bush and Obama in regards to the war on terror.

I think that people from majority Muslim countries that had their requests to travel to the US denied by the new administration, on the sole grounds that they are from a Muslim country, would disagree.

One change that occurred after 9/11/2001 was the deployment of the term "homeland" as in "Homeland Security". The US hand not previously employed such a term. It was a significant rhetorical move, similar to changing the name of the War Department to the Defense Department in 1947. "Homeland" has connotations quite different from "the nation" which is the previous term applied to our collective selves.

Homeland Security isn't "national defense against foreign enemies". "Homeland Security" is an internal force activity. It was under cover of "homeland security" that the intelligence services of the country proceeded with mass surveillance of domestic electronic communication. It was under Homeland Security" that the intrusive and demeaning "theater of safety" has been conducted at national airports. Homeland Security turned the crosshairs of surveillance and intrusion inwardly on Americans themselves.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

I'm not sure what you mean by "around here" but when I searched for "Chomsky" I came up with 253 mentions...

The fact that my lefty god is only mentioned on average once in about every 1,000 posts is worrying.

Quoting Bitter Crank

One of the things that stimulates paranoia and fear is erratic change and uncertainty. Americans, like people all over the world are more subject to unexpected changes and uncertainty; it's destabilizing, especially when some of the changes mean worsening conditions, and some mean improving conditions.

I think the issue is that the goals of "the government" are not aligned with the interest of the common folk. I call this the alignment problem.

Quoting Bitter Crank

Lots of people are getting jacked around by economic forces directed from distant locations, and people think the government is behind it. Sometimes the Gov is behind it; other times, not.

Yeah, I guess so. It's the economy, stupid! Not really...

Quoting Bitter Crank

Just say NO to fear and paranoia.

It's really worrying when you see it in children, of all people, who are afraid to go to school because some mentally deranged person wants to shoot up the place.

Quoting andrewk

I think that people from majority Muslim countries that had their requests to travel to the US denied by the new administration, on the sole grounds that they are from a Muslim country, would disagree.

Yes, I stand corrected then.

Quoting Hanover

It is not a new thing, but it is the essence of Americanism, and like all things traditionally American, it is more embraced by Republicans than Democrats, who for some reason are enamored by the European ideology America very intentionally stood in opposition to.

The fact that European nations are able to set aside their differences and unite under a common flag under the name of the European Union, which is something very similar although not the same as the United States, speaks volumes about the level of maturity and sanity of Europeans. Basically, that's something desirable and to be applauded for.

Reply to Baden Well, I'm doing my part.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I think the issue is that the goals of "the government" are not aligned with the interest of the common folk. I call this the alignment problem.

I think that's over-thinking it. The government is dangerous and potentially harmful to the citizens, and while the actions reflecting that are not goals for the people I don't really see the insight looking at the alignments has to offer.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I think the issue is that the goals of "the government" are not aligned with the interest of the common folk. I call this the alignment problem.

Noam Chomsky.

Posty, I just don't think most people object that much to most government activities. The People and The Government are reasonably well aligned, for better and for worse.

I'll grant that some people are angry, bitter and resentful, suspicious, fearful, and paranoid about policies and actions of the government. I'd describe the situation as a small pissy core of right-wingers (like western ranchers who want to graze herds on Federal lands for free) deploying rhetoric which resonates with a larger circle of people. In total, the pissy core and the pissy resonating chamber on the Internet might add up to 10% of the population. That's still 30 million. Enough to make a significant amount of noise.

Quoting Posty McPostface

It's really worrying when you see it in children, of all people, who are afraid to go to school because some mentally deranged person wants to shoot up the place.

Noam Chomsky.

And these fearful children aren't fearful and paranoid about the government, they are fearful and paranoid about armed lunatics killing them -- a not altogether unreasonable fear (as long as they don't get carried away with fear; 99.999% of children attending school will not be victims of deranged gun-toting NRA zombies).

Quoting Posty McPostface

Yeah, I guess so. It's the economy, stupid! Not really...

Noam Chomsky.

Yes, really. The industrial heartland (western PA, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, eastern Wisconsin) was hollowed out by corporations decamping first to the south, then to the Caribbean, then to Mexico, then to Asia, to find the absolute cheapest labor on earth. Japan and S. Korea (haven't been a cheap labor zone for decades -- they too outsource production to cheaper asians) wiped out a good share of the American car production base because the executives at GM, Ford, and Chrysler had their heads up their asses. Companies like Walmart rearranged retail with low wage big box stores (they weren't the first to do this). Computers, automation, mechanization, advanced technological devices (like RFID) have all forced dramatic changes (and reductions) in employment.

That's what makes people feel jacked around and abused. Getting sacked at Toys R Us, with no severance, when the executives who took the company into bankruptcy are getting golden parachutes, tends to piss people off.

The government isn't guiltless in all these changes, but if a group should be crucified, it would be the corporation executives who should be nailed up on crosses first. Unfortunately, many Americans tend to think of themselves as workers who happen not to have made it to the top YET. They will be rich someday; they just happen to be broke right now. This foolish, stupid, screwed up view of the world is no defense against the harsh realities of a globalized economy.

Quoting BlueBanana

I don't really see the insight looking at the alignments has to offer.

Well, the point is that the government is serving interests other than that of the common folk, which Ciceronianus alluded to. That's all I was attempting to say on the matter. As to how to realign the interests of the common folk with the government is another matter, possibly worth exploring if anyone cares to start a thread on the issue.

Quoting Bitter Crank

Posty, I just don't think most people object that much to most government activities. The People and The Government are reasonably well aligned, for better and for worse.

You really believe that? I find that hard to believe (?) I can post studies showing that special interest groups and a handful of elite have more power than what my vote can ever hope to do. Hell, you had Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation telling us that the Military Industrial Complex was getting out of hand in, back in 1961...

Quoting Bitter Crank

And these fearful children aren't fearful and paranoid about the government, they are fearful and paranoid about armed lunatics killing them -- a not altogether unreasonable fear (as long as they don't get carried away with fear; 99.999% of children attending school will not be victims of deranged gun-toting NRA zombies).

Maybe I was born yesterday; but, I recall hordes of school kids doing a walkout requesting some action on gun violence to be undertaken by our great and caring leaders.

Quoting Bitter Crank

This foolish, stupid, screwed up view of the world is no defense against the harsh realities of a globalized economy.

Are you saying that I got it all wrong, with projecting my own concern about these issues here?

Quoting Posty McPostface

Well, the point is that the government is serving interests other than that of the common folk.

That's too deep underlying imo. It's the actions that matter more, not their reasons, especially if we're looking at the reasons for the fear of citizens. That's like a reason of a reason but there's no direct connection. How deep are we going to dig? Let's ask why the government has other interests. Maybe because of the politicians making decisions being too far away from the common folk so that they can't relate to them anymore. Why is this? I might say because there's too much power in USA so that they can do decisions that don't directly relate to the people the government should by its existence serve. USA's rise to a superpower is a complicated issue but I'll pick two historical reasons: the arms race against USSR and maybe the events after WWII. WWII was caused by Nazis, who raised as an answer to the threat of communism, and communism also caused the existence of the Soviet Union.

So are the Americans afraid of their government because of the industrial revolution leading to bad working and living conditions for the working class, which led to Karl Marx coming up with communism, because of which Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union both came into existence, WWII happened, USA won it, got an economic boost, started competing against the Soviet Union, became a superpower, and all this lead to the government of USA having bigger concerns than their citizens, because of which their interests weren't the top priority, which led to USA mistreating their citizens?

If we continue that long enough we get to the boundary conditions of the Universe together with deterministic laws of physics, or God's plan, or the chaoticity and meaninglessness of our existence and the lack of any real reason, or whatever. That big metaphysical answer behind everything is technically correct but I don't find much meaning in it. So I just prefer cutting the reasoning after the most straightforward explanation according to Occam's Razor.

Quoting BlueBanana

That's too deep underlying imo. It's the actions that matter more, not their reasons, especially if we're looking at the reasons for the fear of citizens.

I don't think you're really addressing what the OP is talking about and unjustifiably acting as if it is broader than it is. The OP is referring to the fact that congressional legislation is nearly always (something like >90% of the time) in line with what the very wealthy wish. These include tax cuts for those very wealthy as opposed to the middle or working class, rejecting health care reforms common in developed countries (because corporations prefer the veritable free for all we had before) and ever increasing rates of both college tuition and the intentional preferences universities make for wealthier applicants in their acceptance rates. These and others demonstrably don't help "the common man" and are widely trumpeted as being good for everyone despite how clearly they are directed at those with high income.

Reply to MindForged

What s/he said.

Although, I'd like to point out, for sake of sincerity, that this isn't a purely "Republican" (although I did use the term "predominantly" in the OP, and still stick by it) issue. It's displayed on both sides of the aisle.

Quoting MindForged

The OP is referring to the fact that congressional legislation is nearly always (something like >90% of the time) in line with what the very wealthy wish.

It's not just the wealthy that have power, it's not that simple. The government is also an entity in its own that has power over the rich people, and it's connected to many other entities like CIA or army that don't have so clear ties to the class economics. In fact, these have to do with the topics in respect to which the common folk are completely indifferent that I mentioned. The rich have a big role in making USA the place it is, but that's more building up anger, unhappiness, dissatisfaction and conflicts than fear or culture. For example the countless human rights violations made by CIA don't really affect average people, but they build up certain mental images of what those organizations and by associations USA as a whole are. These mental images create the collective thoughts that America is not safe etc.

So, just to carry on the idea of the ordinary folk not having their voice heard (What I'll refer to as the 'alignment problem'). What can be done about this? It seems to me that the rhetoric of "draining the swamp" and such matters are just a distraction from the larger issue of not having the interests of the few and powerful only realized at the highest levels of governance, and with that a growing sense of distrust, paranoia, and even fear.

Is this simply a systemic feature of our form of governance in the US?

Quoting BlueBanana

It's not just the wealthy that have power, it's not that simple. The government is also an entity in its own that has power over the rich people,

Which it does not exercise for the obvious reason that politicians won't bite the hands that feed them (lobbying, campaign finance, etc.). The example you gave (CIA human rights violations) are predominately regarding what is done to non-Americans, so it seems disconnected from your statement about the government having power over rich people. So while the government does all sorts of awful things in the States and abroad, the most it will do at home that "hurts" the wealthy is what the Democratic Party will do, which is very little (Democratic party can't even get as far as supporting disallowing private financing of election runs so they too won't bite the hand that feeds them). I think the inheritance tax is about as much as they support in practice.

Quoting Posty McPostface

This foolish, stupid, screwed up view of the world is no defense against the harsh realities of a globalized economy.
— Bitter Crank

Are you saying that I got it all wrong, with projecting my own concern about these issues here?

No. The "fooling, stupid, screwed up view of the world" belongs to people who think that they will be rich someday, when there is less than a snowball's chance in hell of them getting rich.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Maybe I was born yesterday; but, I recall hordes of school kids doing a walkout requesting some action on gun violence to be undertaken by our great and caring leaders.

Yes, they did -- and good for them. But this was less fear driven than idealism driven. The high school students in Florida, managed to get their act together and speak-out on the side of a sane national policy towards guns and violence. I take my hat off to them -- they are doing what clear thinking sensible young people ought to do. It would be a good thing if clear thinking sensible older people also acted up about gun violence.

Quoting Posty McPostface

You really believe that? I find that hard to believe (?) I can post studies showing that special interest groups and a handful of elite have more power than what my vote can ever hope to do. Hell, you had Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation telling us that the Military Industrial Complex was getting out of hand in, back in 1961...

YOU know there are several groups of special interests and elites who control the balance of political power in the US Congress and President's Office. I know that too, and maybe a couple of million inquiring minds in the country know that, but most people are not aware of how extremely disproportionate the power the elites have is and how little the population at large has.

That's happened, and Eisenhower was right. What happened was that the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about had gotten big, and has since gotten a lot bigger. Armaments are a major export item and support a lot of jobs. Military bases bring income into the regions in which they are located.

On the other hand, wars have gotten a lot more expensive. Avoiding the body bag PR problem of Vietnam has led to war with low death rates (for us), and a lot of smart bombs, cruise missiles, drones, heavier armoring of vehicles, more electronic warfare, etc. etc. (Unfortunately, that doesn't mean our military activities achieve exactly what they are intended to achieve, but...)

I think a lot of Americans are aligned with the Military Industrial Complex's capacity to rain death and destruction (shock and awe) down on Islamic Enemies, or whoever else is next. Yes, there is human rights nattering about civilians getting blown up, but civilians have always been getting blown up in war. It's one of the great War Time Traditions. And in a cultural war of Islam Vs. Western CIVILIZATION, who is a civilian anyway? If it wasn't for all those other pesky nuclear powers, we'd probably should have just nuked the whole Middle East and been done with it. [These are not my personal views, mind you.]

SO THEN THE ALIGNMENT QUESTION: The people are aligned with what they believe the Government is doing, and why the government is doing what the government does -- most of the time. Every now and then the curtain is pulled back a little and people see that what the government is doing is not necessarily what they would like the government to be doing. The mismatch between belief and reality has to be egregious before people can really see it, because we are all drenched in a lot of misleading propaganda.

The People may not be aligned with my view of the government; the people may not be aligned with your view of the government. We are voices howling in the wilderness, RISE UP AND SMITE THE WICKED SONS OF BITCHES. Our howls are lost in the moaning wind of the wilderness, and the people are more likely to smite us for making too much noise.

Quoting Bitter Crank

But this was less fear driven than idealism driven.

That's a statement worth exploring in more detail, I think. See this video for instance:

'It was going to happen eventually' says student on Texas shooting

Quoting Bitter Crank

YOU know there are several groups of special interests and elites who control the balance of political power in the US Congress and President's Office. I know that too, and maybe a couple of million inquiring minds in the country know that, but most people are not aware of how extremely disproportionate the power the elites have is and how little the population at large has.

They might not know it, however you want to define that term; but, I'm sure they have some inkling about it in general. Low voter turnout, disenfranchisement among young voters, and other trends point to this idea.

Quoting Bitter Crank

That's happened, and Eisenhower was right. What happened was that the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about had gotten big, and has since gotten a lot bigger. Armaments are a major export item and support a lot of jobs. Military bases bring income into the regions in which they are located.

I'm not against the MIC. For all intents and purposes, it's a net positive on the economy and social welfare. I also don't really buy into the idea that the country being run by generals or a deep state, although Eisenhower was one hell of an awesome president in my book.

Quoting Bitter Crank

On the other hand, wars have gotten a lot more expensive. Avoiding the body bag PR problem of Vietnam has led to war with low death rates (for us), and a lot of smart bombs, cruise missiles, drones, heavier armoring of vehicles, more electronic warfare, etc. etc. (Unfortunately, that doesn't mean our military activities achieve exactly what they are intended to achieve, but...)

Well, that's solely because our aversion towards war has grown so high that it's hard to justify any jingoistic tendencies anymore. A topic worth exploring, perhaps.

Quoting Bitter Crank

I think a lot of Americans are aligned with the Military Industrial Complex's capacity to rain death and destruction (shock and awe) down on Islamic Enemies, or whoever else is next. Yes, there is human rights nattering about civilians getting blown up, but civilians have always been getting blown up in war. It's one of the great War Time Traditions. And in a cultural war of Islam Vs. Western CIVILIZATION, who is a civilian anyway? If it wasn't for all those other pesky nuclear powers, we'd probably should have just nuked the whole Middle East and been done with it. [These are not my personal views, mind you.]

Yeah, as much as I'd like to think that the above is just batshit, there are quite a few people with the above views.

Quoting Bitter Crank

SO THEN THE ALIGNMENT QUESTION: The people are aligned with what they believe the Government is doing, and why the government is doing what the government does -- most of the time. Every now and then the curtain is pulled back a little and people see that what the government is doing is not necessarily what they would like the government to be doing. The mismatch between belief and reality has to be egregious before people can really see it, because we are all drenched in a lot of misleading propaganda.

Fundamentally, the problem is that this is a top down process that has going on in regards to aligning the will of the people to the doings of our government, not the other way around, unfortunately. Why do you think that is?

Reply to Posty McPostface I have been reading the diary of Victor Klemperer, a German (Jewish) professor; it covers about 13 years, up to 1945. He struggles to figure out "what does the average man think about... the war, the Jews, the rationing..." He is unable to come to a conclusion because "the German people" as represented in "the average man" is frustratingly kaleidoscopic. The pattern is constantly changing from person to person.

The same thing applies here: We try to understand what "the 300 million American people" think, as represented in bits and pieces of reportage, conversations with other people, and so forth. The picture we see, like Professor Klemperer, is kaleidoscopic, constantly changing from view to view.

Reply to ????????????? It is yet to change. It needs to change. I'm prepared to give this new administration the benefit of the doubt at this point.

If Trump's narcissism actually takes the form whereby he wants to be regarded as an historic sort of hero president, so therefore maybe just to personally bathe in his own glory, then it is a better outcome than the previous narcissistic war mongering presidents.

I don't believe a non-narcissist would ever become, or want to strive to be, a national leader. Humanity on the whole is not evolved enough for it.

Quoting Posty McPostface

What's the underlying source of all this fear and paranoia?

Ask George Orwell.

Now what was the crux of '1984'?

Was it as Hillary Clinton said in her book that it's crux was the danger of not trusting your government?

Now why would she get that so wrong by flipping it on it's head? I suggest she hoped the younger population would have been too lazy to look it up for themselves and therefore should have blindly trusted her for the leadership role.

It does make one sigh with a certain amount of relief, however, that she is not president.

Gun control advocacy, arguments against the 2nd amendment, “war on terror” (while simultaneously financing and arming terrorist groups), is about the business of security companies.

The security business requires that individuals and citizen militias cannot protect themselves.

“Government” has essentially grown to become “Security Corp” and it only wants to grow more. Consequently it loves school shootings and terrorist attacks probably to the point of enabling and manufacturing such events.


Unrestrained “government”, therefore, is essentially a manufacturing industry. More recentlly, the last 3 decades, it has been trying to manufacture your consent to disarm yourselves by the dirtiest means possible. It has no more interest in protecting an American citizen than a foreign citizen.

For an unrestrained security manufacturing industry government Corp any citizen of anywhere is expendable towards those ends.

It does not discriminate. In fact an armed private American citizen is it’s greatest threat. The Consitution itself is it’s greatest threat just as the ‘freeman’ principals of the Magna Carta is and once was.

Every dictatorship has always found ways and flavours to disarm it’s own citizens prior to progressing its interests.