Am I being too sensitive?
I don't know why; but, when I see two people fight on this forum I grow sad. Like, the whole purpose is to explore themes and other edifying issues about matters; but, when two people get into an argument it bothers me. I guess, I have a really small ego or something...
I also don't like the sexual jokes in the Shoutbox for some reason. I find it crude and really unnecessary. Can we do away with the jokes about Hanover fucking Sapientia mom or my mom or your mom or whoever mom, really really hard?
I tend to think that as amateur/hobbyist philosophers we're kind of above all the crap that the rest of the internet is overflowing with.
Lets keep it a safe, fun, and a happy space.
:smile:
I also don't like the sexual jokes in the Shoutbox for some reason. I find it crude and really unnecessary. Can we do away with the jokes about Hanover fucking Sapientia mom or my mom or your mom or whoever mom, really really hard?
I tend to think that as amateur/hobbyist philosophers we're kind of above all the crap that the rest of the internet is overflowing with.
Lets keep it a safe, fun, and a happy space.
:smile:
Comments (66)
The only complaint I have is that discussion tends to devolve into petty potshots and I-told-you-so's. That is not to say I am completely innocent in this respect.
Well, it was indecent.
Well, I personally could survive without making dirty jokes, so I'm listening, but it might be the death of Hanover. Would you want that on your conscience? Anyway, I sympathize with the points you made, but it's not really a mod issue but an issue of differing personalities and their expressions.
Ooh, la-de-da.
This made me chuckle.
Yes please! One only knows one has a conscience when it carries some weight. It is one of the difficulties of being very nearly perfect.
Or to put it another way, the same joke endlessly repeated is really tedious.
But otherwise, I like that people invest some identity into their positions, as if it matters who has the right of it.
OK, well, if everyone tells @Hanover they don't like his dirty jokes, he will no doubt...make more dirty jokes. Would you like that on your conscience?
(Sorry, Un, that's the best I can do at 2am.)
All well and good. But on this forum, a blunt comment in the Shoutbox can kind of hit you off guard. Also, when in “view all discussions” mode, which everyone probably uses, the goofy Lounge stuff (which can be lots of fun occasionally) just flows in the line with the weightier topics. Anyhow, just my two cents... :smile:
I agree the Shoutbox is too prominent. It is easy to change to Categories mode though. Maybe more posters should do that.
Summary of my 2C: The jokes are harmless but the Shoutbox is too prominent.
Admit it, you too enjoy the dirty jokes and don't want Hanover to stop. Ive seen you two playing one upmanship on that front to no end.
Why is that?
Oh dear! Maybe that thread should be closed, if it is such a problem? Or maybe people who are over-sensitive should go somewhere else? Or possibly, moderators should be a bit more moderate.
I find them harmless as I said above and fun sometimes. But I will personally be more careful in future seeing as it bothers you and some others.
Quoting Posty McPostface
It's not something that keeps me awake at night one way or the other tbh.
I'm not personally for banning dirty jokes in the Shoutbox or telling Hanover he can't make them. I'm sure the other mods have their own opinions on it, which they may share here.
Quoting unenlightened
Generally speaking, yes, but I don't consider making dirty jokes (or any jokes) in the Shoutbox as being immoderate in any important way unless they are deliberately being done to bully or belittle, which is not the case with Hanover.
Oh, puh-leeze don't flip the issue and say that your doing this because of us. Make your silly jokes that are in reality deeply demeaning to women and our common sensibilities. I guess that's just how things are and I should shut up and fall in line.
No, it's not. I have no investment in it and will happily stop. I'm just not going to try to dictate to others that they do. I'll leave that to you and those who object most. Goodnight.
Sleep tight.
Don't sweat it!
Sometimes we get too far into it but this place would be insufferable if all we ever did was blow sweet nothings up each-other's rears. (Just pretend we're fictional characters in a daily soap opera :) )
But when a fight does break out, (especially if you're in it), focus on the ideas and not the people wielding them and almost no matter what you will come out of it without regret: I've had many emotionally barbed exchanges with posters here, but I honestly cannot remember with whom save one or two notable nemeses (it wasn't them I envisioned as my opponent, it was their ideas). Shit-festivals though they may have been, I take great pride in my ability to stay on topic and attempt meaningful contribution while also engaging in those emotional games we play. It's a necessary part of human psyche and motivation for us to call bull shit
Sometimes the catharsis of a good emotional ass-kicking is what people are after as well though, or at least it's what they need.
And even if everyone around you starts catching hurt feelings and declaring their dislike of you, don't sweat that either! You don't know them and they don't know you, so allow your conception of them to evaporate along with their emotions; deal in ideas. But if you absolutely must, playing the insult game has strict etiquette on a philosophy forum:
Ad-hominems cannot be the premise of an argument (fallacious), they must therefore be the conclusions.
Appealing to the person is directly is almost never O.K, you MUST appeal to the ideas, actions and statements of your interlocutors, not their ego or alter-ego. Apply your insulting conclusions to their statements and argument, not to them, and they may be thusly suaded in the long run.
If you follow the above two rules then heated discussions can actually be quite fun and entertaining. It's when certain lines get crossed (generally when hatred or some variant is directed at a poster).
We're [s]all[/s] mostly human though, and we're imperfect. Forgiveness is premium.
Not at all! You have made a new line, and people have not just fallen, but jumped in it. Congratulations! Viva la revolution!
For what its worth here are my 2c. I think that Posty is right the crass nature of ideas communicated with base language and references, is somewhat infantile. However at times it can be amusing. Zizek is no fool, and he is a master of the crass and the crude.
When it is used as a vehicle for thought the depth or significance of the thought is more often proportional to the crudity of the delivery: When this is not the case, genius (as in the case of Zizek) may often be at the table. It is a loss if one misses genius because ones gentle sensibilities are being molested.
I think Chomsky has a hard time taking Zizek seriously for precisely the same reasons, and this is a pity because there is equally much to love and much similarity in their thought. Indeed it might be argued that the Philosophy of the 'left' suffers as a consequence of the lack of unity between these two 'giants' (personally I think Chomsky is most at fault here)
As such there are deep thinking philosophers on this forum who simply avoid the crass stuff and don't engage with the author, this is a pity because behind the crass there is often a significant amount of passion, and little of interest can be asserted without a modicum of passion. Crass becomes truly crass when it lacks real intellectual substance.
In this respect the moderator is right not to try to limit or censor the crass and the crude, It is up to the individual not to take offence, and when offence becomes unavoidable as when dialogue degenerates into talk of intercourse with the maternal, then it is time for those more interested in philosophy to stop reading, and avoid the disappointment that usually arises when one encounters raw emotion that has became divorced from deeper thought.
Freedom of speech is precious and must persist in spite of its potential for abuse. If the crude and the crass came to predominate on this forum, deep thinkers with a respect for dignified language would go elsewhere and that would be a loss to both freedom of speech AND good philosophy. I think what remains of paramount importance is not the words, but that which lies behind them.
Thank you Posty for raising this issue and thank you Baden for declining to act as a censor. Hopefully the overall displacement will be a little more respect for others, and for the ability to express thought in an engaging manner without a dependence upon the crude and the crass
M
Or maybe they should get over it.
Quoting unenlightened
That wouldn't do away with the sexual jokes which a few people dislike and others view as harmless fun. Really, you should be imploring the moderators to be more intolerant. But I would hope that they're not so easily swayed.
That's a misconstrue of the situation. The point was that immorality and indecent talk was being encouraged, for the sake of one-upmanship and some idiotic ego games.
Would you want to fly with drunk pilots flying your plane had you witnessed them taking a drink in front of everyone before the flight?
To be quite blunt, it was one of those 'because we can' situations.
You asked for the sexual jokes in the Shoutbox to be done away with. That sure sounds like a request for censorship.
Quoting Posty McPostface
You disapprove. We get it already. How many more times are you going to interrupt the play with your booing? Until you get your own way?
1. When posters get into arguments it's distressing,
2. Sexual jokes are unsavory to some,
3. the Shoutbox is a free for all.
1. The mods do regulate abusive conduct between parties and if you feel you're being abused, then you should speak up. My own view has been that I believe there should be as little regulation as possible of discussion because we're all adults and can handle ourselves. I have been attacked in all sorts of ways, some deserved, some not (or maybe so), and my general view has been that it shouldn't be moderated. There are parameters of acceptability and we have to maintain that, but I tend to object (in the mods section) to over-regulation more than under-regulation, but I'm just one vote and take very little personally. Differing views among mods keeps things moderate. I really am hesitant to intervene based upon an insult alone without there being some clear line being crossed (like racism or other specific rule being violated). In prior conversations with mods, I have objected that I felt the tone of the forum was growing too gentle, too protected, almost corporate, where I felt I was a customer service representative making sure no one was upset by another's comments. I didn't like it. We need an edge. But, as I said, I'm but one vote, and I am very protective against bullying of any sort.
2. I agree that outside the non-philosophical areas I shouldn't post something about having sex with a fellow poster's mother (see how gently I described that in this thread), but within the Shoutbox it's pretty much an open discussion about whatever. In all truth, much of what I have currently read in the Shoutbox are really poor attempts at humor, with a current trend with the posters acting as if they were all animals. That discussion is non-offensive sure, but it's right out of Romper Room. I obviously don't believe it should be moderated, but my point is that moderating based upon sense of humor is fraught with all sorts of problems. What I will say, though, is that I agree that no one should use humor to demean or bully.
3. The Shoutbox is the free for all area. It just is. There is a good argument that could be made that there's too much free for all in this Forum and that we should focus our efforts on real philosophical issues outside the Shoutbox. I do agree with that actually. To the extent someone wants the Shoutbox rated G and not R (and it's not X), I suppose we could rearrange the furniture and create a Shoutbox G and a Shoutbox R and then sensibilities would be protected, but I question whether that's really needed.
"Would you want to fly with drunk pilots flying your plane had you witnessed them taking a drink in front of everyone before the flight?"
Certainly not Posty. however my point was and is that the flight with the drunk pilot will certainly be more exciting and more of an adrenaline rush, than the usual sober and often entirely predictable affair. Generally I choose not to get on the plane. However it cannot be denied that the drunken pilot (if he/she does not crash the plane) is far more likely to bring me to an unexpected destination, and the unexpected destination is the place where new discoveries are made.
I accept your point in respect of that which is patently offensive. Everybody takes a shit but there are doors on toilets and we dont have to open them irrespective of the most enthusiastic invitations emanating from within.
Lighten up.. you have a proven intellectual caliber and you need not stoop to conquer.
Some people's thought is worthy of response others are not. Allow fools the freedom to be foolish when they are hurting none but themselves.
M
Thanks Doctor.
No probs.. I'll set up a pay pal a/c.. do you want to pay in Euros or Dollars?
M
Haha.
Do you guys still take the Hippocratic Oath in Germany, I assume?
It has lately become the hipocritic oath,
A strict but admittedly subconscious devotion to same is the general rule.
M
No more idiotic than pretending to be a chicken or a pig I would have thought. It's not exactly cutting edge social commentary is it? What you do is express yourself in your own idiotic way. Which is totally fine, but how we do that does vary across personalities and the Shoutbox is a limited area where that is acceptable.
Quoting Posty McPostface
Nobody's drunk and making a dirty joke does not indicate stupidity or an inability to carry out the job of moderation (any more than pretending to be a pig would). Get a grip, Posty.
Quoting unenlightened
And Chez Guevera must be jumping up and down for joy in his grave. I hope he doesn't impale himself on his cigar. Is that a dirty joke? Mea Culpa.
Apart from exhibiting some level of genius and having a potty mouth, Zizek also talks in detail about how dirty jokes function. I can't find the video right now (in fact there are probably several where he mentions this somewhere) but the basic idea is that they allow, and in some cases are even necessary, for a certain from of friendship and comradeship to flourish. I basically share his view that they can function in that way, but then there's a balance of when and where and with whom it's appropriate to engage in them (and it's at least arguable that the shared space of the Shoutbox is not an appropriate place). Anyway, it's not just the simple case that anyone who regularly engages in dirty jokes is stupid and crass and those who object are of a higher more refined moral character. It's far more complicated than that. And some people just need to get out more, frankly.
That's non-responsive to what I wrote. If you are just going to sulk instead of actually engaging, fine. I'm not going to indulge you.
(E.g. You totally ignored this: Quoting Baden
And if that level of dirty joke actually offends you @Posty McPostface then the problem does lie with you, I would say. Fucking mothers and so on is a different level, which I'm more sympathetic to people being offended by, but still don't personally think should be censored when it's limited to a particular area on a philosophy forum orientated towards adults (even though it's definitely arguable it should be).
Still a billion times better (and more fresh, too) than your unending Aristocrat jokes.
I laugh at both but would elevate neither. There are occasionally good examples of real humour and sometimes quite sophisticated humour around the forum but neither of those is it.
I am sorry for offending you and for my part in giving you any reason to feel uncomfortable or unsafe here at TPF. :heart:
Many wise members have spoken on this thread about not taking things personally but I am not very good at it, at all.
But there is a way to cut through the bullshit and that is by being you and remainig gentle. Remaining gentle against the occasional White tower opinions, remain sensitive against those who say no one cares what you say, remain you and be proud of being sensitive! Be proud to care about others and how we all work to get along! Meet anger with kindness and greet those who judge with unconventional love and apply it lavishly as maybe some of it will stick. Or not. And if it is the latter? Then that is their problem, not yours.
I'm not a prude, far from it. Aristocrat style jokes, tho, which consist of nothing but offensive insalubrities stringed together... There's nothing funny in there. At least dead baby jokes tend to have a punchline. :confused:
That's the type of thing that would offend me actually. We all have our lines, I guess.
To be fair, Posty has shown he's not above not being gentle or particularly sensitive even when some concessions are made in his favor. In the end, it all comes down to posters employing strategies to get what they want and make the forum in their image. Anyway, on this issue, the debate is open and we're listening. I've given my opinion but I'd like to achieve some kind of consensus if possible.
Put it this way, if most of the mod team and most posters want to censor the dirty jokes to some degree, we could enact that and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I doubt that's the case though.
(One suggestion btw would be to have them hidden behind a reveal button like gifs should be.)
:heart:
Baden, you know me and the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel like the TPF is an unsafe place to explore the many paths we share in our pursuit of wisdom. I have personally made less than classy remarks in the shoutbox that have made Posty uncomfortable and he said so but I many times didn't really hear him.
So I too am listening but a concensus on something as simple as the color of the sky is unachievable with a group of 'thinkers' but that is what makes us good, as a group 'thinkers.
Having said that, if I am able to learn how to use the "reveal" button, I will keep my sassy remarks for only those that care to read them.
I think that is what I will do because I do not wish to have any censoring of the shoutbox because as silly as it is, it is a place where we can take a load off, let down our hair and speak easy and without fear of laughing too loudly, together. :heart:
On a side note, Thank you for being here for us, to engage with us and for staying up way past your bedtime to make sure the forum members were heard. :heart:
I personally appreciate your taking most of the heat here, though I want you to know, your humor has gotten me through a lot of dark times and for that I am Thankful for the shoutboxes existence. :heart:
Meh. Definitely not worth starting to censor anything here.
The main problem with dirty sexual jokes in the Shoutbox is that they are quite often not as funny or as dirty as we would have hoped for. Discriminating connoisseurs of dirty jokes should be in charge of censoring jokes which do not make it over the low bar established here.
Similarly, the thoroughness with which oxen are gored is unsatisfactory. Since posters are reluctant to perform seppuku, somebody else has to do it for them.
I hope these reforms will improve your user experience.
Thanks, Tiff, for your sensible and generous approach. :up:
I guess I'm the philistine now as I almost always laugh and as with Tiff they often lift my mood (as with the animal stuff). What they don't do is make me think but that's not the function of this type of humor in my view.
I don't remember that being the question. I thought it was some people moaning about the kids these days. Some people think you're a bit of a dick - get over it.
Hey, as long as I'm not the one being fucked over.
So true.
I find that kind of language offensive. Please do away with it in future. I thought you wanted a nicey-wicey, friendwee, safey placey? :heart: :vomit:
I have nothing to fight over here. My ego isn't hurt or anything since I don't identify with it.
If you have nothing to fight over, then your request should be considered rescinded, and the play can continue. Hurrah!
*wallows*
Nah, it's not that. Not feeling depressed or anything really. Just some kinda realization, that I can't put into words yet. I guess my lack of identification with my ego is creating an overwhelming sense of callousness and disregard. It's not dysphoric though.
I guess I'm just confused.
Maybe go back and read this thread. That became a specific question and so I responded. And whether people think I'm a dick, that was only something you brought up and not something I'm terribly worried about. This post is just another in a series of unhelpful and hostile quips of yours. Have at it. Let us all know you're annoyed.
:love:
That’s ridickulous.