For a better forum culture
Issues that I think need to be addressed are as follows:
1) Insulting, demeaning, and/or belittling behavior ought not be allowed from anyone on this forum.
2) Moderators must be moderated like the rest of the forum population.
3) Moderators ought not be exclusively moderated by his or her fellow moderators.
4) Flagging posts or sending private messages to those who should to change their behavior is a flawed and unreliable system in ensuring proper behavior.
I've tested the waters here and have found inconsistencies that aren't congruent with a healthy forum culture. Some of those in leadership positions, the moderators, are not taking their positions as seriously as they ought to and so are not being held accountable. At present, being a moderator entails being able to say what you want without obvious reprimand. Non-moderators, like me, cannot, and rightly, insult other posters. However, some here who are moderators can insult, demean, and belittle other posters. Why? And if they, in fact, are not able to, what is being done to keep them from being insulting, demeaning, and belittling? Slaps on the wrists? What?
For quick access, below is a part of this site's guidelines:
[hide="Reveal"]Moderator conduct:
In discussions, a moderator is subject to the same guidelines as everyone else, and shouldn't, under normal circumstances*, moderate their interlocutors. You can report a moderator or ask that a moderator be moderated in the same way as you would any other poster: by flagging their posts or by sending a private message to another moderator. In other words, moderators, as posters, don't have a special set of guidelines to operate under. So, in this capacity, they should be treated like other posters. When it comes to moderating decisions, however, they are not like other posters, because they have powers other posters don't. In these cases, the Feedback category, or, again, a private message, can be used to complain about moderators' actions in their capacity as moderators. Do not use other discussions to do this or your comments will be deemed off-topic and will be subject to deletion. Feedback discussions should also be kept on-topic with regard to the specific complaint being made.[/hide]
~
With this tenant in mind, here are just a few remarks that have remained in text and have not been edited, deleted, or otherwise censored by anyone.
[hide][i]- I am not a distasteful little wretch like you
- run along and go fornicate with yourself.
- only problem is trying to do this with morons.
- The rest of your post aside from the following is not even worth responding to
- you make a fool of yourself
- Are you speaking English or some other language? I'm speaking English.
- you are wrong, as usual
- You're a weak opponent for me
- Contradictory nonsense.
- Oh my god. That is daft.
- sometimes I get bored of the conversation, so I make stuff up to keep myself entertained (my favorite, explains so, so much)
- This is almost too silly to engage
- What the heck are you talking about? Your thinking is muddled, as usual.
- I have no qualms about demeaning his beliefs, or the beliefs of anyone else here.
- I have no reason to take you seriously
- The only illusion that you'd be shattering is the illusion that you would see sense, but I was never under that illusion to begin with.[/i][/hide]
~
Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is supposed to be a philosophy forum, not a bullshitting, verbal sparring ground for trolls and assholes or some sort of comedy club. I could add in my own crap to the above, very brief list, but my point is that this behavior remains on the forum and nothing is being done to combat it. How can anyone expect to carry on respectful discussion when the above list of things goes on all the time? I'd like not to feel the urge to be mean when I'm being demeaned, insulted, or belittled myself. Flagging posts, especially of moderators, seems a fruitless enterprise that goes nowhere. I don't think anyone here wants to go on mass editing sprees, removing everything useless in posts. What I do think we can do is foster a better culture here by making sure people are held accountable for their actions.
I'm not particularly hopeful, though. When a moderator himself says, "I have no qualms about demeaning anyone here," then I dunno what can be done. People have to desire change in themselves and to realize that their own behavior isn't appropriate, or at least, ought not be allowed. I'm more than willing to be respectful to everyone so long as they're respectful to me. This seems to be the goal around here, but the mods have forgotten and don't always follow it themselves.
Bottom line, if a post is to be deleted or edited, and a member warned or banned, then that which often leads to such moderated behavior also needs to be censored, otherwise people are shooting in the dark for what is and is not allowed. And that isn't fair.
1) Insulting, demeaning, and/or belittling behavior ought not be allowed from anyone on this forum.
2) Moderators must be moderated like the rest of the forum population.
3) Moderators ought not be exclusively moderated by his or her fellow moderators.
4) Flagging posts or sending private messages to those who should to change their behavior is a flawed and unreliable system in ensuring proper behavior.
I've tested the waters here and have found inconsistencies that aren't congruent with a healthy forum culture. Some of those in leadership positions, the moderators, are not taking their positions as seriously as they ought to and so are not being held accountable. At present, being a moderator entails being able to say what you want without obvious reprimand. Non-moderators, like me, cannot, and rightly, insult other posters. However, some here who are moderators can insult, demean, and belittle other posters. Why? And if they, in fact, are not able to, what is being done to keep them from being insulting, demeaning, and belittling? Slaps on the wrists? What?
For quick access, below is a part of this site's guidelines:
[hide="Reveal"]Moderator conduct:
In discussions, a moderator is subject to the same guidelines as everyone else, and shouldn't, under normal circumstances*, moderate their interlocutors. You can report a moderator or ask that a moderator be moderated in the same way as you would any other poster: by flagging their posts or by sending a private message to another moderator. In other words, moderators, as posters, don't have a special set of guidelines to operate under. So, in this capacity, they should be treated like other posters. When it comes to moderating decisions, however, they are not like other posters, because they have powers other posters don't. In these cases, the Feedback category, or, again, a private message, can be used to complain about moderators' actions in their capacity as moderators. Do not use other discussions to do this or your comments will be deemed off-topic and will be subject to deletion. Feedback discussions should also be kept on-topic with regard to the specific complaint being made.[/hide]
~
With this tenant in mind, here are just a few remarks that have remained in text and have not been edited, deleted, or otherwise censored by anyone.
[hide][i]- I am not a distasteful little wretch like you
- run along and go fornicate with yourself.
- only problem is trying to do this with morons.
- The rest of your post aside from the following is not even worth responding to
- you make a fool of yourself
- Are you speaking English or some other language? I'm speaking English.
- you are wrong, as usual
- You're a weak opponent for me
- Contradictory nonsense.
- Oh my god. That is daft.
- sometimes I get bored of the conversation, so I make stuff up to keep myself entertained (my favorite, explains so, so much)
- This is almost too silly to engage
- What the heck are you talking about? Your thinking is muddled, as usual.
- I have no qualms about demeaning his beliefs, or the beliefs of anyone else here.
- I have no reason to take you seriously
- The only illusion that you'd be shattering is the illusion that you would see sense, but I was never under that illusion to begin with.[/i][/hide]
~
Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is supposed to be a philosophy forum, not a bullshitting, verbal sparring ground for trolls and assholes or some sort of comedy club. I could add in my own crap to the above, very brief list, but my point is that this behavior remains on the forum and nothing is being done to combat it. How can anyone expect to carry on respectful discussion when the above list of things goes on all the time? I'd like not to feel the urge to be mean when I'm being demeaned, insulted, or belittled myself. Flagging posts, especially of moderators, seems a fruitless enterprise that goes nowhere. I don't think anyone here wants to go on mass editing sprees, removing everything useless in posts. What I do think we can do is foster a better culture here by making sure people are held accountable for their actions.
I'm not particularly hopeful, though. When a moderator himself says, "I have no qualms about demeaning anyone here," then I dunno what can be done. People have to desire change in themselves and to realize that their own behavior isn't appropriate, or at least, ought not be allowed. I'm more than willing to be respectful to everyone so long as they're respectful to me. This seems to be the goal around here, but the mods have forgotten and don't always follow it themselves.
Bottom line, if a post is to be deleted or edited, and a member warned or banned, then that which often leads to such moderated behavior also needs to be censored, otherwise people are shooting in the dark for what is and is not allowed. And that isn't fair.
Comments (41)
I do agree with the basic sentiment that everyone should try to be civil and that insulting behavior should be minimized. An example of one such offending comment that I deleted just moments ago came from you, and I think it might serve as a good example of the sort of post to avoid:
[i]"Am I a fool for not sucking your dick and agreeing with every thought that emanates from your little walnut? I know the Marxist in you wants to manipulate your way to having everyone think the same as you do and for everyone to be snooty pricks, but unfortunately, I shall remain in your way until someone breaks and bans me for no good reason.
I also don't agree with much of what MU is saying here, I just feel for him as it would seem that he is this week's prey for some of you here to extend your egos over the internet and its denizens. "[/i] Buxtebuddha
A more effective strategy for moderating the comments on this board than appealing to the moderators for relief is to moderate your own behavior and simply not post comments like the one above.
I look at the list of comments you provide. They are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug. They are also bad philosophy. On the other hand, I don't see any of them that should be deleted. Be that as it may, I have made the case before that moderators should be held to a higher standard than regular posters. Otherwise, the credibility of the forum is undermined.
Forums such as this really should have the mostly reasonable, loose level of decorum it has--something quite a ways short of perfection. With perfection comes tight control--from who is allowed to even see the forum, join the forum, post, moderate, onward to getting away with dubious posts, and to occasionally impolite interactions, and impolitic comments. Sometimes getting away with just plain bad behavior.
Be careful what you pray for, as the saying goes -- you might get it.
I'm not concerned deeply with it, due to most of the pee-pee and poopy jokes happening in the shoutbox as a moderator mentioned already. I guess I'm very puritan about sex and talk about it.
And inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug comments are posted because some of the forum members are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug, and some of them go downhill from there. But that's just life. The range of behavior is always pretty wide, and getting people to change their behavior is always pretty difficult.
Sometimes I think that society would be better off tolerating the flaws which all of us incarnate at one time or another, rather than spending a lot of time policing this behavior.
Cheap shot. Bad philosophy. Bad moderating. You should be ashamed. Answer his damn comment. Buxtebuddha is not without sin, but that's not what's on the table right now. You should be figuring out a way to make the forum better, not backing up your fellow moderators inappropriate behavior.
On another thread there is a discussion about the abuse of power. That's exactly what's going on here, admittedly on a small scale. You and Sapientia can do what you want to insult and shame people you disagree with without censure from the other moderators. It's infuriating.
Hopefully that sexual jokes and innuendo is a normal part of life, and that one won't shrivel up and die if one hears a sexual joke, or offends someone for telling a sexual joke. Personally, I enjoy sexual jokes, double entendres, snide puns, innuendo, and all that stuff.
Moderating one's own comments is precisely what moderators here have not been doing. I can moderate my own if I do not receive shit from moderators who seem to have an untouchable position.
Quoting Posty McPostface
Agreed.
Quoting T Clark
I agree. I don't think they should be deleted, but the issue remains that the deletion of posts isn't consistent, and has been such that moderators who insult others can do so, while others like me for instance, cannot without being reprimanded. Either we all get to jab at each other or not at all. There shouldn't be some vague, subjective criteria, or lack thereof, which mods can appeal to that lets them get away with what the rest of us can't.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I do pray that we either get to be insulting here, or we don't get to be. That's it. None of this, "I have a special ding dong next to my name, so I can do whatever I want! You, pleb, cannot be demeaning, but I can!" It's mildly infuriating when I get smacked for reaching for a cookie by an older brother who takes the whole fuckin jar of baked goods. That ain't fair, sorry!
Matter of taste, I guess.
Quoting Hanover
I don't disagree with you. I'm not proposing any specific changes. Since I don't have the power to ban or delete, I'm using the power I do have - to call out chronically inconsiderate, snotty, smug, and arrogant behavior when I see it. The worst part is it's cheap shot, crappy, cowardly philosophizing.
I am not sure whether the social affect of Sapientia and Hanover have changed recently; it seems to me that they might be a bit more rough and sarcastic than usual. Since there does not appear to be a line at the Moderator Application Window, we probably are stuck with what we've got. And that is not the worst thing that can happen.
I'm all for official toleration. That's why there is informal social control, which is what I'm trying to do with the tools I have. On the other hand, there are moderators who shouldn't be. They don't have the temperament and respect for the people they moderate.
Quoting T Clark
Me too.
Again, I don't disagree with you. As I say to my close, personal friend @Baden from time to time
My God, that's moose turd pie!! It's good though.
Hey, are you admitting that you're a moron like me? X-)
Quoting Bitter Crank
Oh I know, I'm just shooting in the dark here, hoping that people check their privilege and their behavior.
Quoting T Clark
If this is the case, please take him out to coffee, and if he blows you off, beat him over the head and steal his account.
OK, so why don't we take a vote? It might be (or, it most certainly would be) non-binding, but it might have a beneficial effect. Then again, it might not.
A new thread, and a poll listing the moderators. Click the button of those that you think should not be moderators.
like "The food was terrible, and the portions were so small!"
10 moderators all voting for each other sounds like a terrible idea. They're already "voting" for each other in this thread!
Of all the people I've interacted with on this forum, you're the one I can think of who might be familiar with U. Utah Phillips.
As I said, I'm all for calling out bad behavior, but I don't believe in holding people up to ridicule. It would be humiliating for me to be in a situation where people who don't like me vote about me. I'd rather not do it to anyone else.
Yeah, you reckon that poll is gonna stay OPEN? >:O Give me a break... >:O
We already had a poll to alter the guidelines once upon a time. It got closed in less than 12 hours after all the moderators rushed to vote >:)
I would agree if this were a forum for children. Adults should have the capacity to deal with this sort of thing.
Having read some of their posts on the matter, my understanding is that a few of them consciously choose to express themselves in ways that may be offensive in some situations. I suppose the difference may be that they're at least relatively self-aware and not merely reactionary. That's an important difference and it seems to hold true, in my experience (which may not be sufficient evidence).
This has been dealt with before and the guidelines should be clear. Besides, your own behavior and the type of comments you are prone to suggest you may not be sincere. Even if you are though sufficient discussion has occurred for the moderator group to understand and note your perspective. If you wish to raise issues that relate to this topic but which have not yet been raised in this thread, they may be communicated by PM to one of the moderators.
X-)
Nearly everyone can get their panties in a wad when faced with certain situations.
I'm grateful for the site.
Kudos to those who provide it.
The mods have refused to allow this on utterly unexplained and arbitrary grounds. They say they desire feedback and a diverse mod team, but then turn around and say, "no, we don't have to listen to your feedback, and we're not going to make the mod team diverse by adding another mod." It would be the simplest thing in the world to shut people like me up if they would enact my suggestion, and yet, inexplicably, they refuse. So I will continue to have a cautious, skeptical attitude toward the leadership here, and to hell with them if they complain about my complaints.
You're right, and I agree with several of your other points.
Quoting T Clark
I agree with all of this. The crucial part of the guidelines is here:
A respectful tone is merely desirable, and being disrespectful is not always a case for action by the moderators. However, it seems fair to expect moderators themselves to live up to what is desirable, and to almost always be respectful.
And although inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug comments are more tolerated in the Shoutbox, when the discussion there has developed into a substantive philosophical debate that really belongs in Philosophy of Religion, that leeway doesn't apply.
I will be urging all of the moderators to try to live up to the spirit, and not merely the letter, of the guidelines, and I will be keeping an eye on how that goes.
Hopefully the above will help to show that we do listen to complaints. As far as mod hiring is concerned though, it was suggested to us by some that the addition of a female mod would help in terms of diversity. We've done that. It may be that the next time we hire we look for another conservative. I would support that too, but it would be unreasonable to expect us to hire specific posters at specific times on the demand of one or two or their friends.
Baden has already addressed this but I'd already written my own response so here it is...
As I see it this discussion is not about ideology, but about tone, manners, and so on.
But to address your point: we have listened to the feedback, and we do want a diverse mod team. Moderators are chosen on the basis of various qualities that have nothing to do with political or religious leanings, so what you see as a refusal to be diverse is honestly no such thing. Just because we don't want person "A" to be a mod, doesn't mean it's his religious or political views that are putting us off.
I personally appreciate your desires jamalrob but I have not found 'respectful' to be the case when moderator(s) insist on addressing myself and other forum members in a demeaning and/or condescending way, repeatedly.
I've found this app to be very helpful. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/28211
Quite often I see complaints about certain behavior, and I find myself to be blissfully ignorant.
I see it's no longer available (but I've installed it and it still works great). Maybe SophistiCat will make it available again?
Want a better forum culture? Use the "ignore" button....