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Question for non-theists: What grounds your morality?

Modern Conviviality August 19, 2017 at 22:00 16450 views 75 comments Philosophy of Religion
Some important notes:

- This is an ontological, not an epistemological question about ethics. I am aware atheists can be very moral beings.
- This is a question for non-theists who hold to objectivity in ethics (moral realists) - e.g. it is always true that murdering someone for no reason is morally wrong, etc.
- Grounding morality in: evolution (naturalistic fallacy), sentiment (subjectivity), or human reason (ultimately subjective, for whose reason are we speaking of? And human reason, limited as it is, cannot construct moral laws) seems incoherent. Short of Platonism, are these all the options a non-theist has at his disposal?

*I'm relatively new here. I'm sure this issue has been discussed before, but I've missed it.

Comments (75)

prothero August 19, 2017 at 22:48 ¶ #98623
I think the Golden Rule and its variations "do unto others, etc" covers a lot of moral ground for both theists and non theists alike. Or maybe the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights will do.
I am not sure notions of eternal punishment or reward are that admirable.
Brian A August 19, 2017 at 22:55 ¶ #98627
Morality can be grounded in rational autonomy/free will (cf. Kant's Groundwork): autonomy is the condition for human reason, and the moral law is delineated in human reason. This is not constructivism, since moral facts are held to be discovered in reason, and not constructed by it. And this is not "ultimately subjective," since the faculty of reason is present among all human beings.
Wayfarer August 19, 2017 at 23:20 ¶ #98632
Well, Buddhists are 'non-theists'. Buddhist morality is grounded in the original Buddhist teachings, and also the subsequent elaboration and development of the principles in those teachings by generations of Buddhists. As it has developed quite separately to the Christian tradition, it views ethics and ethical principles in a very different way to the Christian, although I think it is fair to say that Buddhist and Christian ethics are quite convergent in many important respects.

But ultimately Buddhist ethics are grounded in the reality of karma - that all intentional actions have consequences - and founded on the inter-dependent principles of ??la (morality), Prajñ? (wisdom) and Samadhi (meditative absorption). These are compared to the 'three legs of the tripod', three legs being necessary for the structure to stand. However the ultimate aim of Buddhist teaching is, in my opinion, transcendent.

The spiritual values advocated by Buddhism are directed, not towards a new life in some higher world, but towards a state utterly transcending the world, namely, Nibbana. In making this statement, however, we must point out that Buddhist spiritual values do not draw an absolute separation between the beyond and the here and now. They have firm roots in the world itself for they aim at the highest realization in this present existence. Along with such spiritual aspirations, Buddhism encourages earnest endeavor to make this world a better place to live in.


Buddhism and the God Idea, Nyanaponika Thera.
Cavacava August 20, 2017 at 05:00 ¶ #98693
Reply to Modern Conviviality

Grounds
To assume an ontological answer is to assume the reality of socially constructed norms.
To be a moral realist then is to accept the reality of socially constructed norms as objectivly reality
prothero August 20, 2017 at 18:48 ¶ #98847
Reply to Cavacava Under socially constructed norms, then slavery would have been moral in its time? Essentially morality or ethics becomes absolute moral relativism, a result that many would reject.
_db August 20, 2017 at 19:07 ¶ #98854
Intuition. Moral naturalism is a lost cause, and divine command theory is either ad hoc or fails from Euthyphro.
Cavacava August 20, 2017 at 19:43 ¶ #98861
Reply to prothero
Under socially constructed norms, then slavery would have been moral in its time?


No, I don't think anyone can go back in time, literally or figuratively to say what reality was for the individually at various times throughout history. We must judge history based on our own normative understandings and valuations. Similarly we now judge Newton's theories as an incomplete understanding of the world based on our point if view, not his.

Essentially morality or ethics becomes absolute moral relativism, a result that many would reject.


Many would accept a $5.00 bill as payment for a $5.00 debt. Offering a debtor less than what is owned for no good reason might invoke their laughter. Not all norms are all that normative, some norms have evolved along with our understandings, and these continue play a crucial part in the social construction of reality.

Jake Tarragon August 20, 2017 at 20:19 ¶ #98868
The question of this topic has got me wondering about theists - surely they are in no different a position to non theists when it comes to "grounds for morality" ... except for theists who admit to blindly following their religion's stated morality simply because it is in "the book" or whatever.
jorndoe August 20, 2017 at 21:19 ¶ #98880
Quoting Brian A
rational autonomy


(Y)

We generally like freedom and dislike harm (including other animals), and that can, and do, inform judging actions in terms of morality.
Which hardly are matters of arbitrary, ad hoc opinion, not mere whims of the moment; who ever called liking freedom or disliking harm random or discretionary anyway?
If you require myths and commands to understand that, then there's a good chance you're a bit scary. :)
The objective versus subjective thing is misleading from the get-go.
SophistiCat August 21, 2017 at 07:45 ¶ #98942
Quoting Modern Conviviality
This is an ontological, not an epistemological question about ethics. I am aware atheists can be very moral beings.


When you are asking for the grounds of a position, i.e. "Why do you hold to that position?" you are, by definition, asking an epistemological question. To insist that it is an ontological question is to beg the question. You are smuggling some kind of an answer into your question: the only "grounds" you will accept must be some kind of "thing" or fact in the world, right? I suppose this leads to your next stipulation:

Quoting Modern Conviviality
This is a question for non-theists who hold to objectivity in ethics (moral realists) - e.g. it is always true that murdering someone for no reason is morally wrong, etc.


Moral realism is usually understood as the statement that (a) moral claims are statements of facts (more than just facts about our own thoughts and feelings), of the way the world is (outside our heads), and (b) at least some moral claims are true. Is this what you mean by moral realism?

Quoting Modern Conviviality
Grounding morality in: evolution (naturalistic fallacy), sentiment (subjectivity), or human reason (ultimately subjective, for whose reason are we speaking of? And human reason, limited as it is, cannot construct moral laws) - seems incoherent.


Why do you think so? "Incoherent" means, strictly speaking, contradictory. What contradictions do you see in these positions?

ETA: Some of the answers posted here (Reply to prothero, Reply to Brian A, Reply to jorndoe) propose to ground all or most of morality in some particular moral dictum (the Golden Rule, the primacy of personal freedom), but these are not really answers to the question posed in the OP. These are proposals for theories of morality that reduce most moral claims to some fundamental moral principle. But these proposed grounds are themselves moral principles, and so they cannot ground all of morality.
lambda August 21, 2017 at 08:01 ¶ #98946
They ground morality in their own sinful desires.
TheMadFool August 21, 2017 at 08:16 ¶ #98947
Suffering and happiness; barring, of course, exceptions like sadism and masochism. To think of it, even religion resorts to the suffering-happiness paradigm in formulating moral theory. A religion that makes suffering good and happiness bad simply doesn't exist, proving my point.
SophistiCat August 21, 2017 at 08:17 ¶ #98948
Answering for myself (I am not a theist, but I am not sure that I am a "moral realist," because this notion is not very clear to me), I don't seek to ground my moral convictions in anything. I don't think that, as far as moral claims go, there is anything more fundamental than moral convictions.

Some of my moral judgments are more secure than others, and at times I seek to ground some less secure opinions in more secure, more fundamental convictions. But, as I wrote above, this kind of query cannot provide the grounds for morality as a whole.

We might try to explain morality as a natural - or a supernatural - phenomenon, but this can only tell us what is, not what ought to be.
Beebert August 21, 2017 at 08:23 ¶ #98949
Reply to lambda "Does a man bathe quickly (early)? do not say that he bathes badly, but that
he bathes quickly. Does a man drink much wine? do not say that he does this bad-
ly, but say that he drinks much. For before you shall have determined the opinion,
how do you know whether he is acting wrong? Thus it will not happen to you to
comprehend some appearances which are capable of being comprehended, but to assent to others" - Epiktetos
Ciceronianus August 21, 2017 at 15:18 ¶ #98993
The understanding that to desire or disturb myself with what is beyond my control serves only to make me subject to others, and unhappy.
Modern Conviviality August 21, 2017 at 23:29 ¶ #99090
Reply to prothero Yes, but how can the golden rule, or any moral rule or law, on a non-theistic worldview, be more than an illusion or construct
Modern Conviviality August 21, 2017 at 23:36 ¶ #99091
Reply to darthbarracuda Interesting. I agree that intuition is how we directly apprehend the moral realm and a SENSE of moral objectivity. Viz. we feel the phenomenological weight of an inescapable moral reality. But I think intuition by itself does not constitute an argument for the reality of an objective moral realm. Intuition gives us a pragmatic case for the rationality of moral objectivity.

On an aside, I think DCT is the closest thing we have to an ontological grounding of morality
Modern Conviviality August 22, 2017 at 00:01 ¶ #99096
Reply to Brian A Very interesting. But how are 'moral facts held to be discovered in reason'? Again, its not that reason can apprehend moral truths, we both agree on that. Its that moral laws are somehow part of the rational/epistemic enterprise itself - viz. a moral law is just a true proposition, say. Am I getting this right?
_db August 22, 2017 at 00:02 ¶ #99098
Quoting Modern Conviviality
But I think intuition by itself does not constitute an argument for the reality of an objective moral realm.


Might want to look into Simon Blackburn's quasi-realism. It still runs into the difficulty of justifying how exactly morality is objective, but it manages to seem to fuse projectionist and non-cognivitism into a distinctly cognitivist morality. Our attitudes towards things are projected onto the world and in turn we "perceive" this very projection and formulate truth-apt statements.

But in general with a lot of philosophical debates and meta-ethical ones you get four camps, some form of non-naturalism, naturalist reductionism, expressivism and eliminativism, the former two being realist and the latter two being anti-realist. It's not perfectly cut like this in real life but in general it's a basic template that most issues end up being structured as.
Modern Conviviality August 22, 2017 at 00:03 ¶ #99099
Quoting Wayfarer
Buddhist morality is grounded in the original Buddhist teachings


Again what your talking about is moral epistemology, not moral ontology. Many moral teachers may teach many different moral doctrines. This does not in any way broach the question of the ground of moral truths.
Wayfarer August 22, 2017 at 00:04 ¶ #99100
Reply to Modern Conviviality Says you. No argument here, only bald assertion.

The fundamental question of Buddhism is: what is the source and the end of suffering. Nirv??a, as 'the end of all suffering', is exactly that: the end of all suffering. It is, therefore, a supreme good, and one around which the Buddhist teachings serve.
Modern Conviviality August 22, 2017 at 00:06 ¶ #99101
Quoting Wayfarer
Says you. No argument here, only bald assertion.


But I'm not trying to forward any argument, just explicating and making important distinctions.
Wayfarer August 22, 2017 at 00:08 ¶ #99102
Quoting Modern Conviviality
This does not in any way broach the question of the ground of moral truths.


That is an assertion, or, if you like, a proposition, by which you claim to have essentially eliminated Buddhism from answers to your original question.
Modern Conviviality August 22, 2017 at 00:08 ¶ #99103
Quoting Wayfarer
But ultimately Buddhist ethics are grounded in the reality of karma


This is very new for me. I'm not going to attempt to respond critically, only to ask how does the Buddhist know that 'all intentional actions have consequences'?
Wayfarer August 22, 2017 at 00:15 ¶ #99105
Quoting Modern Conviviality
how does the Buddhist know that 'all intentional actions have consequences'?


I would think through a combination of observation and inference. The word 'karma' comes from the root word for 'hand' (kr-) - the implication being 'action' or 'deed', and its consequences. It is not hard to observe this relationship in day to day life.

To turn the question around - how can the link between action and consequence NOT be fundamental to a moral philosophy? The idea that actions don't have moral consequences is surely one of the main grounds that theistic philosophies fault atheism for, isn't it?

And besides, there are biblical verses that can be cited as being an implicit recognition of the same principle, specifically, 'as you sow, so shall you reap', which is practically folk wisdom (although no less true for that.)

The deeper issue for Buddhism is, if karma is always to have consequences, then it must, somehow, extend beyond physical death; because if physical death 'wipes the slate clean', so to speak, then there are no consequences for evil actions beyond what occurs in this physical existence. That, of course, is a deep question; suffice to say that in theistic traditions, it is dealt with in relation to doctrines of eschatology, i.e. 'the fate of the soul after death', typically depicted in terms of heaven and hell (and limbo, in traditional Catholicism).

I don't want to take the thread in that direction, beyond observing that both theistic and Buddhist religious cultures acknowledge the concept of 'a life beyond' as essential to their ethical doctrines.
Modern Conviviality August 22, 2017 at 00:17 ¶ #99106
Quoting ?????????????
trying to rationally justify divine command while rejecting the authority of reason is incoherent.
I appreciate this criticism. But I'm not rejecting the authority of reason, reason is all we have to fall back on as philosophers. I'm making the point that placing the building of moral objectivity on the foundations of human reason is constructivist, because surely the moral realm existed before humans did. If morality came into existence with man, how can it be objectively binding (i.e. law-like).

Wayfarer August 22, 2017 at 08:21 ¶ #99179
Quoting Modern Conviviality
if morality came into existence with man, how can it be objectively binding (i.e. law-like).

Excellent question. I don't think anyone else in this thread has an answer to it.
Harry Hindu August 22, 2017 at 11:35 ¶ #99249
Since morals are the rules to live by in the culture you find yourself in, my morality comes from recognizing that like to be free and not in prison, so I follow the rules of the culture I find myself in.

As a member of a social species, I need others around me to be happy and recognize that to piss them off would be to possibly lose them and make me unhappy.
Mr Bee August 22, 2017 at 13:02 ¶ #99272
Reply to Modern Conviviality First off, I would want to say that I do not believe in any sort of "objective" morality. Or to put it another way, I don't think that there any absolute fact as to what is right or wrong. However, that doesn't mean that I don't think that there doesn't exist any morality at all. Clearly we do have a deep-rooted sense as to what is right or wrong, and I believe that this is grounded in our own capacity as human beings to empathize and feel compassion for others. We are social beings after all, so it's not surprising that we have evolved with an inborn conscience. This, I think, is where laws such as the golden rule come from, and why they are so pervasive across different cultures.
mcdoodle August 22, 2017 at 20:45 ¶ #99338
Quoting Modern Conviviality
Short of Platonism, are these all the options a non-theist has at his disposal?


The approaches you don't appear to be exploring are (a) virtue ethics, a process of learning good action grounded in the interplay between your reason and experiences with the social practices you find around you; and (b) a grounding of ethics in how we are with and for each other, the I-you relation, which many Continental philosophers are into, but which has been propelled into the analytic way of doing ethics by Stephen Darwall's 'The Second Person Standpoint'.
VagabondSpectre August 23, 2017 at 00:16 ¶ #99408
Quoting Modern Conviviality
or human reason (ultimately subjective, for whose reason are we speaking of?


The most universal and coherent moral foundations are composed of shared sentiment (i.e: our shared desire to go on living and to live freely) and "human reason" (if you're asking whose reason we're speaking of, the answer is our reasoning; our shared human reasoning).

The social contact is a good metaphor for the form that my moral arguments tend to take. If we have similar goals in life then we may come to an agreement between us to abstain from certain actions and to accept the burden of performing some other actions in order to serve our end goals more effectively.

"More effective"... Some moral systems are more effective than others (although different moral systems sometimes do different things) at achieving their goals. How do you know there are objective rights and wrongs instead of a spectrum of better and worse?

The goals of my moral framework extend only as far as our shared human condition/experience/desire, but luckily there are some basic shared desires that are nearly universal in humans (the aforementioned two for instance). Many non-non-theists try and take issue with my moral framework by claiming that "it's not objective" even while they assent to my moral propositions because they share basic human desires. It seems ironic to me that this issue of non-universality is so important to so many thinkers even though it forces them to nest their moral foundation in some absurd claim to supreme truth which renders their moral system less persuasive and less useful overall.

In short, present me a set of circumstances with moral implications and I'll try to convince you of what I think is the best available moral decision to make. I won't convince you on the basis that a certain decision is good because it is universal, or contains a certain ultimate virtue, but because it demonstrably promotes/preserves stated values and ends that at the time you agree are morally praiseworthy or obligatory.

Of late I have found that morality as a mutually agreeable cooperative strategy designed to promote shared values and goals (and avoiding undesirable ends), is quite useful for convincing people of a particular moral course of action even while they reject it as "morality". For instance, one person might hold (or want to hold) that doing violence against another is universally immoral, but when presented with the right circumstances (such as the need to defend yourself when suddenly thrust into a violent prison system as an inmate) almost everyone would happily consent to do violence once it becomes clear to them that a strategy of mutual cooperation is not available and that doing harm to others is necessary for self-preservation. (if you're interested @Modern Conviviality, just say so and I'll happily paint such a circumstantial picture, as I would be happy to do for any other supposedly "universal" moral commandments). I sometimes call this a "breakdown of morality" in order to emphasize that when conflict is inevitable (when no cooperative strategies are available) the utility of typical intuitive moral positions can go flying out the widow...
Modern Conviviality August 24, 2017 at 05:02 ¶ #99798
Quoting VagabondSpectre
if you're asking whose reason we're speaking of, the answer is our reasoning; our shared human reasoning


I can understand your invocation of a universal/collective type of human reasoning to apprehend and intuit morality as human persons, but it still seems unsatisfactory for our purposes. Our 'collective reason' is still human, and so by inference: imperfect and limited. Are you speaking of a Platonic 'collective human logic' which has a special ontological status similar to God's ontological status? Unless moral laws are somehow built into the logical structure of thought (in a Platonic kind of way), which is coherent but difficult to articulate.
Modern Conviviality August 24, 2017 at 05:10 ¶ #99801
Quoting VagabondSpectre
Many non-non-theists try and take issue with my moral framework by claiming that "it's not objective" even while they assent to my moral propositions because they share basic human desires


But this is perfectly explainable when we distinguish between epistemological and ontological morality. As a theist I agree with many of the ethical habits, desires, and beliefs of my atheist colleagues. There is no problem here. The problem concerns how the atheist can appropriately ground his moral life in an objective (not universal) way.
Modern Conviviality August 24, 2017 at 05:24 ¶ #99803
Quoting mcdoodle
virtue ethics, a process of learning good action grounded in the interplay between your reason and experiences with the social practices you find around you


I'm a big fan of virtue ethics. Studied it lightly, but still retain the fundamentals I think. You're right I blatantly missed the option. However, does virtue ethics go beyond describing what the good life is / what is truly good for man qua man - to answer the question of grounding? If I remember, Aristotle just takes it as axiomatic/self-evident that man truly ought to desire what is good. That it is constitutive of his nature, in a normative way. It is self-evident like 2+2=4 is. Am I correct here?
mcdoodle August 24, 2017 at 09:35 ¶ #99847
Quoting Modern Conviviality
If I remember, Aristotle just takes it as axiomatic/self-evident that man truly ought to desire what is good. That it is constitutive of his nature, in a normative way. It is self-evident like 2+2=4 is. Am I correct here?


I think your 'ought to' isn't right, but otherwise, yes. It is for Aristotle the nature of humanity to pursue eudaimonia, flourishing, and the route to this is 'the good'. The details of the virtuous dispositions that will enable us to enact the good are mostly acquired from what people say is blameworthy or praiseworthy, i.e. from the shared Athenian culture which we all know is the best possible culture the world has ever seen - kind of thing.

There's a lot of modern work on virtue ethics which began from Elizabeth Anscombe's paper of 1958, 'Modern moral philosophy', which you can find online. The major work I've read and thought about is 'After Virtue' by Alasdair MacIntyre, which tries to construct a virtue ethics for the present era. Pardon me if you know all this.
Brian A August 24, 2017 at 16:30 ¶ #99951
Reply to Modern Conviviality
Very interesting. But how are 'moral facts held to be discovered in reason'? Again, its not that reason can apprehend moral truths, we both agree on that. Its that moral laws are somehow part of the rational/epistemic enterprise itself - viz. a moral law is just a true proposition, say. Am I getting this right?


I don't know how moral facts are discovered by reason. But they are. And yes, "moral laws are...part of the rational/epistemic enterprise itself". Insofar as something is intelligible, it is grounded in the rational enterprise. Thus all of morality stems from reason. This is my understanding.
VagabondSpectre August 24, 2017 at 19:41 ¶ #99971
Quoting Modern Conviviality
I can understand your invocation of a universal/collective type of human reasoning to apprehend and intuit morality as human persons, but it still seems unsatisfactory for our purposes. Our 'collective reason' is still human, and so by inference: imperfect and limited. Are you speaking of a Platonic 'collective human logic' which has a special ontological status similar to God's ontological status? Unless moral laws are somehow built into the logical structure of thought (in a Platonic kind of way), which is coherent but difficult to articulate.


The "laws" I'm interested in are built into reality in the same way that an ideal chess strategy is built into a particular configuration of chess pieces on a chess board.

It is neccessary to have a starting value though; a goal. In chess the goal is winning capturing the enemy king. Reasoning allows us to come to positions about what is objective better or worse in terms of achieving that goal. In chess there are a host of known moves which are almost universally terrible to make (in almost every chess situation), and there are moves which are thought to be very strong. In real world moral terms gouging each-others eyes out is almost universally inconducive to our shared goals; a bad move. But it always depends on the circumstances...

The foundation is shared goals; what we humans want. The moral agreement that can exist between us encompasses the scope of our shared or non-mutually exclusive (life, love, happiness, etc...), and our physical capacity to actually follow a mutually beneficial strategy of cooperation (if physical circumstances make cooperation impossible or necessitates conflict (especially deadly conflict) then there can be no shared moral agreement between us relevant to the situation).
VagabondSpectre August 24, 2017 at 19:56 ¶ #99973
Quoting Modern Conviviality
But this is perfectly explainable when we distinguish between epistemological and ontological morality. As a theist I agree with many of the ethical habits, desires, and beliefs of my atheist colleagues. There is no problem here. The problem concerns how the atheist can appropriately ground his moral life in an objective (not universal) way.


Is the human condition an objective authority?

I reckon it's not, but we ARE humans, and as such a morality which serves and pertains to the human condition is the best morality for us. I cannot open a window into some objective dimension and pull out some ultimate and necessary moral purpose. I know this isn't what many thinkers are looking for, but I can promise you that it's very robust when done right.

Take "the desire to go on living" for instance. When survival dilemmas arise coming to an agreement about how to work together in order avoid death is something that all humans generally will get on board with (and of the humans who do not desire to go on living, they generally don't pose any problems).
Modern Conviviality August 25, 2017 at 02:15 ¶ #100052
Quoting mcdoodle
There's a lot of modern work on virtue ethics which began from Elizabeth Anscombe's paper of 1958, 'Modern moral philosophy', which you can find online. The major work I've read and thought about is 'After Virtue' by Alasdair MacIntyre, which tries to construct a virtue ethics for the present era. Pardon me if you know all this


I am aware of this great revival of a great moral theory! - indeed the most sound and flexible secular moral theory on offer. I say I am 'aware', but only as someone who follows, in a peripheral way, the trends in modern ethics, but have not read either Anscombe or MacIntyre, yet! I'm still reading & understanding the ancient/medieval positions before I grapple with their modern iterations.
Modern Conviviality August 25, 2017 at 02:36 ¶ #100055
Quoting Brian A
I don't know how moral facts are discovered by reason. But they are. And yes, "moral laws are...part of the rational/epistemic enterprise itself". Insofar as something is intelligible, it is grounded in the rational enterprise. Thus all of morality stems from reason. This is my understanding.


Well wait a minute, I think we have come back round to the beginning again. In a weak sense, 'rational enterprise' sounds like something humans do 'create' and are responsible for. But 'rational enterprise' could be interpreted in a stronger ontological sense, namely, as the underlying structure of thought/reality itself.

The latter is something we humans simply participate in but are in no way responsible for - logic and its laws being the main example. So, to go back, if morality is part and parcel of Logic with a capital L then we are mere participants of morality in the same way we merely participate in using logic.

It seems like we pushed the problem back one step! How do we ground logic itself? I think this isn't a problem for most people, as we are comfortable with the thought that logic is necessary and axiomatic. But Morality with a capital M does not feel necessary in the same way.
Wayfarer August 25, 2017 at 02:39 ¶ #100058
Quoting Modern Conviviality
but have not read either Anscombe or MacIntyre, yet!


Worth noting that McIntyre converted to Catholicism, and that that Anscombe was Catholic. That might be incidental, but the thrust of McIntyre's argument tends logically towards theism. (He had previously been Marxist.)
Modern Conviviality August 25, 2017 at 03:04 ¶ #100064
Quoting ?????????????
There are some terminological ambiguities ("objective", "law-like", "constructivist" etc), which make it difficult to discuss the issue, without firstly getting rid of these. But, if you're ok with it, we can also start by discussing the exclusion of theism from your question. So, let me ask: why don't you include theists in your question? Is theism somehow free of this problem (by "theism" here, I understand some form of divine command, correct me if I'm wrong)? I'm asking since someone could level a "euthyphrean" critique, arguing that divine command is just another sort of ethical subjectivism. Just with a godly flavor. Nothing is objectively good or bad, in themselves things are not moral or immoral, what makes them such is that God commands them or forbids them. In being extrinsic to things themselves, theistic morality is not objective. So, why the distinction?


My response to Euthyphro is stolen from Aquinas. That it is a false dilemma, in that God acts consistently with his essential character, which is the foundation of goodness. God is neither the architect of goodness nor is he the expert on goodness, He is the foundation of goodness.
Janus August 25, 2017 at 08:17 ¶ #100101
Quoting Modern Conviviality
If morality came into existence with man, how can it be objectively binding (i.e. law-like).


We do not require that physical laws "came into existence" prior to the phenomena they govern in order to qualify as being "objective"; so why should we require it in the case of moral laws that govern the behavior of moral beings?
Janus August 25, 2017 at 08:27 ¶ #100102
Quoting mcdoodle
I think your 'ought to' isn't right, but otherwise, yes. It is for Aristotle the nature of humanity to pursue eudaimonia, flourishing, and the route to this is 'the good'.


If it is "the nature of humanity to pursue eudamonia" (and this is taken in a positive sense as 'flourishing'), and the "route to this is the good" then why would these facts not justify the conclusion that we ought to pursue the good (meaning, of course. nothing other than 'take that route')?
Wayfarer August 25, 2017 at 08:40 ¶ #100104
Quoting Janus
why should we require it in the case of moral laws that govern the behavior of moral beings?


Physical laws purportedly act without intention; if there is no intention, there can be no question of morality. So how could moral laws be compared to physical laws? (As I mentioned, the doctrine of karma does provide a somewhat naturalistic solution, in that it connects intentional actions with consequences in a law-like manner. However I don't think there are many analogies to that in Western ethical philosophy.)
Janus August 25, 2017 at 08:53 ¶ #100106
Reply to Wayfarer

I don't understand your objection since I wasn't talking about physical laws in the context of morality, but rather moral laws. The contention, as I understood it, was that moral laws could not be "objective" because they came into existence with moral beings. But by that argument physical laws could not be objective if they came into existence with physical entities. Or are you saying that only physical things can be objective? If you want to say so, that would be a separate argument, and it would also make it look like you had bought into the logic of the very ones (physicalists and materialists) you generally seem to be seeking to refute.
Brian August 25, 2017 at 09:43 ¶ #100111
Quoting Modern Conviviality
- This is a question for non-theists who hold to objectivity in ethics (moral realists) - e.g. it is always true that murdering someone for no reason is morally wrong, etc.


I'm pretty much a subjectivist on morality, so I don't think anything really objectively grounds it. I would say that an individual person's system of morality, insofar as it is coherent, is grounded in subjective first principles. However, once you make use of these first principles and assume their value is true, there are many logical truths we can derive from it.


i.e. 1. Murder is always wrong --> subjective principle

2. Abortion is murder (I personally reject this premise so to me the argument is not at all sound)
-----------
3. So therefore abortion is wrong, too. The conclusion follows from the premises.


First principles themselves are based on what I would call existential choices made by the individual subject. So accepting premise #1 as true would be such a choice.
I'm not sure if there's anything that can objectively ground morality, not even God. If morality is the divine command of God, it just seems to be that God is putting forth her own preferred subjective system of morality.

mcdoodle August 25, 2017 at 21:10 ¶ #100242
Quoting Janus
If it is "the nature of humanity to pursue eudamonia" (and this is taken in a positive sense as 'flourishing'), and the "route to this is the good" then why would these facts not justify the conclusion that we ought to pursue the good (meaning, of course. nothing other than 'take that route')?


I was just trying to be pedantic about the source in ancient Greek, not express an opinion of my own. It's commonly accepted that the ancient world didn't have this sense of 'ought' in the language, so if one thinks they must have meant it all the same, one has to go by a roundabout route. That's part of what Anscombe says: that the very idea of duty, of 'ought' in our cultural traditions derive from a God who was unknown to the classical world.
Janus August 25, 2017 at 22:13 ¶ #100245
Reply to mcdoodle

"The unexamined life is not worth living"

It seems fair to say that both Plato and Aristotle, in their perhaps different ways, recommended the pursuit of eudamonia and the 'good life'; and that such a recommendation is certainly an "ought" of sorts; although obviously not an "ought" imposed by a transcendent authority; which is the narrower way you seem to be interpreting it.
Cavacava August 26, 2017 at 00:57 ¶ #100270

Reply to Janus
"The unexamined life is not worth living"


Do you think the examined life is necessarily a moral life or that philosophy is the correct methodology for examining life. It didn't seem to work out too well for Socrates. He was democratically judged to be impious and a corrupting influence by 280 of 500 Athenians.






mcdoodle August 26, 2017 at 15:51 ¶ #100329
Quoting Janus
"The unexamined life is not worth living"

It seems fair to say that both Plato and Aristotle, in their perhaps different ways, recommended the pursuit of eudamonia and the 'good life'; and that such a recommendation is certainly an "ought" of sorts; although obviously not an "ought" imposed by a transcendent authority; which is the narrower way you seem to be interpreting it.


Well, what do you mean by 'an "ought" of sorts'? That's the question. I still want to emphasize that I'm reporting a view of the ancients which was specifically revived by Anscombe's paper 'Modern moral philosophy' of 1958, which you can find online, and greatly reinforced by MacIntyre. Their view is that 'ought' is about a law-based version of ethics, which Plato and Aristotle didn't hold; that the virtue-based view of ethics is quite different.

Janus August 26, 2017 at 23:09 ¶ #100366
Quoting Cavacava
Do you think the examined life is necessarily a moral life or that philosophy is the correct methodology for examining life.


I'm not clear on what you're asking here. Are you offering these: "a moral life" and 'philosophy-as-methodology' as alternative ways of living an examined life and asking which one is the necessary and/ or more correct way?



Janus August 26, 2017 at 23:28 ¶ #100370
Quoting mcdoodle
Their view is that 'ought' is about a law-based version of ethics, which Plato and Aristotle didn't hold; that the virtue-based view of ethics is quite different.


OK, I haven't read those two and nor do I intend to. If what you say exemplifies their view, then I would say that it seems like a myopic, or one-dimensional view to me on the face of it.

Does not virtue ethics consist in saying that one ought to live a virtuous life? Surely not all 'oughts' consist in following rules. One model of morality says that it consists in following rules, and another says that it consists in moral intuition; in following a cultivated natural moral conscience; whichever way one understands morality it makes sense to say that one ought to be moral.
mcdoodle August 27, 2017 at 10:34 ¶ #100483
Quoting Janus
OK, I haven't read those two and nor do I intend to. If what you say exemplifies their view, then I would say that it seems like a myopic, or one-dimensional view to me on the face of it.

Does not virtue ethics consist in saying that one ought to live a virtuous life? Surely not all 'oughts' consist in following rules. One model of morality says that it consists in following rules, and another says that it consists in moral intuition; in following a cultivated natural moral conscience; whichever way one understands morality it makes sense to say that one ought to be moral.


I think there is a third option, consequentialism, that one should take account of outcomes, besides virtue ethics and deontic or rule-based notions.

Your 'ought' here is a meta-ethical question, or so I read it, and I quite agree, if we are even going to bother with ethics, it makes sense to say that one ought to be moral.

It's hard to extend the 'ought' to particular acts, whereas rule-based people and consequential people seem to find it easy. Of course this is all part of a debate stretching back to Hume about 'ought'. I don't understand why you say in advance you won't read certain philosophers: they have something interesting to say, in my opinion - they both fiddle with the is/ought problem en route to their ethical views - and they set the scene for modern virtue ethics between them. A couple of years ago I was never going to read any of this ethics stuff, but here I am, all the same.
Modern Conviviality August 29, 2017 at 00:30 ¶ #100774
Quoting ?????????????
What does it mean that "God is neither the architect of goodness nor is he the expert on goodness, He is the foundation of goodness"?


It means that God is not constructing moral laws or designing the contours of what is normative arbitrarily, He is himself that standard, that locus. It emanates from His nature (necessarily)
Jeff August 29, 2017 at 00:42 ¶ #100779
Jokes on you, atheists! I have a degree in Christology and enough historical and theological evidence to prove that God exists.
Wayfarer August 29, 2017 at 05:54 ¶ #100843
Quoting Jeff
I have a degree in Christology


What, do you show that at the Pearly Gates? X-)
anonymous66 August 29, 2017 at 19:15 ¶ #100941
Several non-theist philosophers have written about objective morality.

Paul Boghossian is Silver professor of philosophy at New York University, where he was Chair of the Department for ten years (1994?"2004) and responsible for building it into one of the top philosophy programs in the world.[1] His research interests include epistemology, the philosophy of mind, and the philosophy of language. He is Director of the New York Institute of Philosophy and research professor at the University of Birmingham.

Timothy Williamson is a British philosopher whose main research interests are in philosophical logic, philosophy of language, epistemology and metaphysics.

He is currently the Wykeham Professor of Logic at the University of Oxford, and Fellow of New College, Oxford. He was previously Professor of Logic and Metaphysics at the University of Edinburgh (1995?"2000); Fellow and Lecturer in Philosophy at University College, Oxford (1988?"1994); and Lecturer in Philosophy at Trinity College, Dublin (1980?"1988). He was president of the Aristotelian Society from 2004 to 2005.

He is a Fellow of the British Academy (FBA),[1] the Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters,[2] Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh (FRSE) and a Foreign Honorary Fellow of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.


Simon Blackburn is a British academic philosopher known for his work in metaethics, where he defends quasi-realism, and in the philosophy of language; more recently, he has gained a large general audience from his efforts to popularise philosophy. He retired as professor of philosophy at the University of Cambridge in 2011, but remains a distinguished research professor of philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, teaching every fall semester. He is also a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, and a member of the professoriate of New College of the Humanities. He was previously a Fellow of Pembroke College, Oxford and has also taught full-time at the University of North Carolina as an Edna J. Koury Professor. He is a former president of the Aristotelian Society, having served the 2009?"2010 term.

Walter Sinnott-Armstrong (born 1955) is an American philosopher. He specializes in ethics, epistemology, and more recently in neuroethics, the philosophy of law, and the philosophy of cognitive science. He is the Chauncey Stillman Professor of Practical Ethics in the Department of Philosophy and the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University.[1] He earned his Ph.D. from Yale University under the supervision of Robert Fogelin and Ruth Barcan Marcus, and taught for many years at Dartmouth College, before moving to Duke.[2]

His Moral Skepticisms (2006) defends the view that we do not have fully adequate responses to the moral skeptic. It also defends a coherentist moral epistemology, which he has defended for decades. His Morality Without God? (2009) endorses the moral philosophy of his former colleague Bernard Gert as an alternative to religious views of morality.

In 1999, he debated William Lane Craig in a debate titled "God? A Debate Between A Christian and An Atheist".[3]

Walter Sinnott-Armstrong argues that God is not only not essential to morality, but moral behaviour should be independent of religion. A separate entity one could say. He strongly disagrees with several core ideas: 1. that atheists are immoral people; 2. that any society will become like lord of the flies if it becomes too secular; 3. that without morality being laid out in front of us, like a commandment, we have no reason to be moral; 4. that absolute moral standards require the existence of a God( he sees that people themselves are inherently good and not bad); and 5. that without religion, we simply couldn't know what is bad and what is good.

Dan Fincke also argues in defense of objective morality.
Jeff August 29, 2017 at 22:13 ¶ #100957
Victoria Nova August 30, 2017 at 00:47 ¶ #100991
I think our morality is quided by our upbringing and existing laws of morality.
gaffo October 15, 2017 at 04:17 ¶ #115053
Reply to Wayfarer Quoting Wayfarer
Well, Buddhists are 'non-theists'


there are plenty of theist Buddhists.

no, i don't know the percentages, but willing to assume than Siddartha - living 2500 yrs ago was a "theist" (Hindu for sure).

as of course Jesus was a Jew.


antinatalautist October 15, 2017 at 04:18 ¶ #115054
My own judgment is the source of moral fact. If your moral opinions do not align with mine then you are wrong. If I judge an action to be wrong then it is objectively wrong. If you are unsure or concerned with whether an action is wrong or not, just ask me and I'll give you the answer.

gaffo October 15, 2017 at 04:19 ¶ #115055
Reply to Wayfarer Quoting Wayfarer
But ultimately Buddhist ethics are grounded in the reality of karma - that all intentional actions have consequences


Hindus also affirm this theology.
Deleted User October 26, 2017 at 20:32 ¶ #118776
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
charleton October 26, 2017 at 22:32 ¶ #118803
Since there is no widely agreed theistic morality, nor coherence about the definition of god, it begs the question WTF grounds morality if you are a theist?
What's your source?
Another October 27, 2017 at 02:04 ¶ #118833
Quoting Modern Conviviality
ultimately subjective, for whose reason are we speaking of? And human reason, limited as it is, cannot construct moral laws


What limit do you put on human reasoning??
It is a theist human reasoning "limited as it is" that has him believing in his "God". If it was not his human reasoning that led him to his belief in his god's dictated morals then why was it his particular "god" that he choose to follow rather than the many others gods that have been portrayed in men's script?
fdrake October 27, 2017 at 14:18 ¶ #118959
I've never understood why morality is the kind of thing that needs a ground or foundation. If you have an ethical system, it gets tested against intuition and ethical problems in the abstract. I view this as similar to axiomatising arithmetic to 'found' it, if the foundation didn't contain or imply already established arithmetical truths, it would be discarded - rather, it is judged a good axiomatisation when it at least produces the right theorems. In this sense, the expected theorems are more primordial than the axiomatisation.

If a theory that grounds morality, whatever that means, is to have relevance to ethical concerns, it will be tested for its ethical implications and either found fortuitous or unfortuitous depending on its treatment of the ethical issues within its scope. If we would use our intuitions in ethical problems and real life scenarios to judge derived moral statements from a grounding theory and that theory's rightness - be these derived entities a product of ratiocination or sensibility; is it really the theory which is logically prior, or the embodied practice of ethical decision? And if we already have the capacity to evaluate ethical decisions, to live ethically, can it be said that a grounding moral theory provides anything more than a set of heuristics to judge how to act and how to live in the abstract?
Michael October 27, 2017 at 14:44 ¶ #118967
Quoting fdrake
I've never understood why morality is the kind of thing that needs a ground or foundation.


Presumably it's the Principle of Sufficient Reason. Why is something right or wrong?

Quoting fdrake
And if we already have the capacity to evaluate ethical decisions, to live ethically, can it be said that a grounding moral theory provides anything more than a set of heuristics to judge how to act and how to live in the abstract?


I suppose it's a way to avoid relativism. What if my ethical intuitions differ from yours? Do we simply accept the difference, or do we claim that one or the other of us is wrong? If the latter then we need to look to something other than our intuitions, else it's nothing more than a battle of he said/she said.
fdrake October 27, 2017 at 17:34 ¶ #119007
Reply to Michael

Asking why something's right or wrong doesn't require believing in the necessary existence of a sufficient justification, only that to satisfy the questioner there will be a sufficiently persuasive justification for them. If someone could not possibly be convinced by any explanation they're playing a different game than 'explain to me why this is right (or wrong)'.

An emotivist who believes all ethical statements are power plays or persuasive expressions of raw sentiment, or a cognitivist who beliefs that 'moral statements' are truth apt, perhaps can be arrived to by reason and are either true or false (or all false) will still have to act ethically and be effected by the ethical as a normative-juridical structure. They will face similar trials and tribulations in life irrelevant of whatever extraneous philosophical apparatus they're hedging their bets with. They will, usually, try to do what's right and if not that try to do what they can reasonably get away with. They will have been doing all of that, thinking ethically, acting ethically for a long time and will surely have been effected by the ethical dimensions of life since their birth.

Believing that there is some extraneous, foundational philosophical apparatus that will vouchsafe anyone's moral choices completely divorces the ethical from the political - how to conduct ourselves and what should we, as a collective, strive for. Leaving the ambiguities in - some things are right, some things are wrong, maybe there's no ultimate ground, maybe there is an ultimate ground, not only provides a more accurate catalogue of our approaches to morality, but keeps the ethical and the political together. To do what's right is to negotiate with the world around you; sometimes even from the ground up.

Michael October 27, 2017 at 17:48 ¶ #119012
Quoting fdrake
Asking why something's right or wrong doesn't require believing in the necessary existence of a sufficient justification, only that to satisfy the questioner there will be a sufficiently persuasive justification for them. If someone could not possibly be convinced by any explanation they're playing a different game than 'explain to me why this is right (or wrong)'.


If the answer to the question is just persuasive and not explanatory then it's sophistry. Some (especially moral realists) will want more than that.
fdrake October 27, 2017 at 17:49 ¶ #119014
Reply to Michael

One way of being persuasive is to provide a good explanation and be right!
praxis November 13, 2018 at 21:06 ¶ #227274
According to Moral Foundation Theory, I (atheist) have an unusually high reliance on the senses of care/harm and fairness/cheating, and a much lower reliance on the senses of loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. Basically the profile of a progressive liberal, according to the theory.

A theist will generally rely more on loyalty, authority, and sanctity, giving them a broader and more balanced moral framework, the primary benefit being more cohesive and successful social groups (not necessarily societies).
Terrapin Station November 14, 2018 at 13:08 ¶ #227654
I'm an atheist. I'm not an ethical objectivist.

Everyone really grounds their morality in subjectivity--the way that they feel about interpersonal behavior, basically. That's the case even if you're a theist or ethical objectivist. You simply have incorrect beliefs in those instances. What's really going on is that your ethical views are grounded in how you feel about interpersonal behavior.
bloodninja November 16, 2018 at 01:29 ¶ #228085
Reply to Modern Conviviality Morality is ontologically groundless. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves.
Relativist November 17, 2018 at 06:59 ¶ #228658
Quoting Modern Conviviality
This is an ontological, not an epistemological question about ethics. I am aware atheists can be very moral beings.
- This is a question for non-theists who hold to objectivity in ethics (moral realists) - e.g. it is always true that murdering someone for no reason is morally wrong, etc.
- Grounding morality in: evolution (naturalistic fallacy), sentiment (subjectivity), or human reason (ultimately subjective, for whose reason are we speaking of? And human reason, limited as it is, cannot construct moral laws) seems incoherent. Short of Platonism, are these all the options a non-theist has at his disposal?

Humans have the capacity to make moral judgments. These judgments are rooted in empathy, the feeling invoked when considering the condition of others. We don't have to be taught that it's"wrong" to cause another pain and suffering; we literally feel it to be so - if we function properly (sociopaths do not function properly). That act x is wrong is a semantic description of our natural empathy-based sensation of wrongness. It is a properly basic belief, and not mere opinion because we have the belief innately. The belief/feeling is analyzable and seen to be consistent with the survival and thriving of our species. So the ontic fact to which the proposition "x is wrong" corresponds is: the ingrained empathetic feeling in conjunction with the objective benefit to the species of a proper moral judgment.